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Genesis: Data in good condition
Oxidation writes "Space.com is reporting that the Genesis satellite crash isn't as bad as it appeared to be in the first place. Furthermore, a prime particle-gathering device "appears intact" states Don Sevilla. (Genesis payload recovery leader at NASA's JPL)"
With the possibility of contamination, will most of the scientific world be taken the results gained from Genesis with a pinch of salt?
Still... Old... Friend. You've managed to kill just about everyone else. But like a poor marksman you keep missing the target.
And here Khan thought he left my probe as I left him!
;-)
Buried alive,
Buried alive,
Buried aliiiivvveee...
KHHHHAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!
(So I'm feeling a bit cheeky today. So sue me. No, I'm not worth anything.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
They just saved a ton of money on their car insurance...
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
From the beginning I didn't think this was quite as bad as people had feared. The worse case scenerio is that we can only detect particles that are unique to the study area.
No matter how much dirt you pour into that system, any particles that are not common on earth would still be a very interesting finding!
"It is amazing given the amount of breach in the canister just how clean it is inside" Sevilla said. "We're not talking about great clods of dirt."
As much as they were overestimating the initial amount of damage, I think they are underestimating now. No matter how little amount of dust has entered into that system, it still has contamination. Contamination is like pregnancy. Either it is, or it isn't. "Genesis brought back a tiny sampling of the raw material of the Sun, a sample weighing no more than a few grains of salt." Likely many particles that were captured in space are similiar the particles here on earth; however, with the contamination I am not sure how you can seperate the true origin of the particles... especially when such small amounts are involved. Earth dust >>> sun dust.
Can you tell which of these are covered with space particles and which are covered with space dirt?
I can just see some bureaucrat using this as proof to cut funding from the space program. No need to invest in landing gear, just let it crash. :) But seriously that's a testimate to how well they build and designed it.
And to think I freaked out when I dropped my bookbag with my laptop inside it. They should have used something better than a parachute.
Come and say hi. http://forum.penpals.com/index.php
Man, and I thought this accident was going to turn the project to dust. Oh wait.
I saw the crash live, and figured that with how delicate all of the collectors were being made out to be by the folks doing the reporting, that it would be a near-total loss.
It's good to see that at least some of my tax dollars went into some worst-case scenario planning. =)
After studying preliminary data from the recovered probe, scientists are reporting that the Sun seems to have originated in the Utah desert.
"We're finding embedded silicon dioxide particles that are unique to Utah."
The first thing I thought of while watching that video:
"You're the ones who come up with this shit! Why, I bet you have a bunch of guys sitting around somewhere right now just thinking shit up, and somebody backing them up. What's your contingency plan?"
And then I went, "eww," and had to look away..
Recipes for geeks -- no meatloaf, we promise.
had half as many brain cells as the average NASA employee, I wouldn't have to say this.
Sorry world! I apologize on the behalf of the rest of us Americans who do have brains.
Scientists and engineers are optimistic after having peeked inside the Genesis space capsule, which brought back bits of the Sun but crashed into the Utah desert Wednesday.
The craft was supposed to deploy a parachute and be retrieved in the air by a helicopter. Instead it broke apart on impact. Amazingly, scientists say, much of the contents -- microscopic particles that once rode the solar wind and are now embedded on shattered collector plates -- should be salvageable.
In a teleconference with reporters today, mission officials said contamination is their greatest worry, since desert dirt entered the capsule. They need to retrieve the Sun samples in pristine form. The goal is to learn more about the Sun's composition and the history of the solar system and planet formation.
The team might seek advice on handling the wafer-thin collector devices from the semiconductor industry, said Don Burnett, Genesis principal investigator from the California Institute of Technology.
Surprise
"We should be surprised that we have anything," said Don Sevilla, Genesis payload recovery leader at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL).
Sevilla said experts are "peeling back the layers of the onion," using a flashlight and a small mirror on a stick to explore inside the fractured, garbage-can-sized capsule. A prime particle-gathering device "appears intact," he said, and another appears to be "in very good condition."
But pieces of the fragile collectors are "strewn about the canister," so scientists are being very methodical about extracting them.
"It is amazing given the amount of breach in the canister just how clean it is inside" Sevilla said. "We're not talking about great clods of dirt."
No timetable has been created for moving the science samples from a Utah facility to a NASA center for ultimate study. Sevilla said engineers are still busy collecting tools to do unexpected "sawing and snipping" that will take place over the weekend.
Genesis, which launched in 2001, carries a $264 million price tag.
The scientists said they were demoralized when they first saw the craft stuck more than halfway into the desert floor. Attitudes have changed.
"The science team is really excited," said Roger Wiens, flight payload leader from the Los Alamos National Laboratory. Wiens expects to "meet many if not all" of the mission's initial goals.
The investigation
Meanwhile, Sevilla said three pyrotechnic devices that were supposed to deploy the parachute system failed to trigger as planned. They have been "safed" to allow study of the capsule.
"None had been fired," he said. "This points to a command and control problem," not to any failure of the parachutes themselves.
NASA also announced today that Michael Ryschkewitsch, director of the Applied Engineering and Technology Directorate at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, would lead the Genesis Mishap Investigation Board (MIB) in an effort to determine the exact cause of the disaster. The group is due to report back in mid-November.
The optimistic assessment led one reporter to ask if future sample-return missions might forego the theatrics of using Hollywood stunt pilots to make mid-air retrievals of capsules, and instead simply design the shells to survive a freefall.
"The lessons from this one will affect all future sample returns," said Gentry Lee, a JPL engineer.
Where can we bet on the fate of Genesis' twin Stardust, and what are the odds the same thing will happen to it?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
But how did he survive the explosion at the end of Nemesis?
"There she is! Not so wounded as we were led to believe. So much the better."
Cool, now they can just crash their spacecraft instead of employing those expensive recovery procedures they normallu use.
This suggests that it might be cheaper and more reliable to add a bit more shock absorbency and not bother with parachutes and pyrotechnic devices that can go wrong.
Anything to get Phil Collins away from the microphone and strictly in charge of drums.
Oh,the other Genesis...
If you think
IS the Green Alien inside or not?
The rest is just rethoric.
Am I the only one who is disturbed by the line that they were "using a flashlight and a small mirror on a stick to explore inside the fractured, garbage-can-sized capsule." This is Nasa... they can't use a tiny camera in there? They have to tape a mirror on the end of a stick and peek around? Reminds me of a line in "Clay Pigeons" when Deputy Barney is poking a body with a stick and when asked why he said "I was just checkin' somethin'"
"Sevilla said experts are 'peeling back the layers of the onion,' using a flashlight and a small mirror on a stick to explore inside the fractured, garbage-can-sized capsule."
A flashlight and a small mirror on a stick...only cutting edge technology will do for NASA...
... and they attempt to catch it with a hook and a stick!?
This is not a fairground, and you are not trying to catch plastic fish from a pond in exchange for a giant teddy-bear.
Yeah I've not really been paying attention to any of this up until now, but what exactly is in the pod? Is it physical material to analyse, such as rocks and dust etc, or is it media containing data such as photographs?
Sunday you're Thinking Different, Monday you're a huge tool, paying too much and waiting to think like everyone else.
I guess I'm not too surprised. Commercial airliner black boxes seem to be able to survive all sorts of crashes and accidents, and while I realize that the weight limits on components sent into space are far more strict than the weight limits on regular aircraft, I'd expect (hope) that NASA has better technology to work with.
Of course there's also the differences between the scientific equipment used by NASA and the simple recording equipment used in aircraft, but again I'd like to think that NASA is on top of such things.
The solar wind appears to be made of particles remarkably identical to desert sand.
Anonymous Kev
Proudly posting as AC since 1997
(Finally got a dang account in 2004)
I submitted the *exact* same story two days ago, BUT I'M NOT BITTER! Anyway, although the official web site originally had a bunch pictures of the recovery team with their unprotected hands all over the spacecraft remains, it seems they've moved it to a clean room...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
On an AP article, the headline read "Sun atoms may be intact after crash". And I thought the only way to split an atom was to bombard it with neutrons. Makes sense now why the conduct nuclear explosion tests deep underground.
From the recovery, from another poster: http://www.genesismission.org/images/gen_recovery_ fragments-browse.jpg
interesting... they appear to have collected shards of a large, shiny black object...
(queue the trumpet)
My god, it's full of sand!
stuff |
(looks through microscope and sorts through particles with tweezers)
Utah, Utah, Utah, Utah, Utah, Utah, Utah, Solar!, Utah, Utah, Utah......
-Randy
Is that the part responsible for gathering particles from the Utah surface?
Good news to hear in general...hope it turns up decent information.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
1 Probe $280 Million Dollars 2 Stunt Helicopters $30 Million Dollars Watching a 280 million dollar probe crash at 200 MPH.... PRICELESS Money cant buy everything, but i bet this time it bought the lowest bidder :-)
http://www.DaveNet.biz/
Imagine the ass-chewing those poor engineers got.
Maybe it's just the innate lack of confidence in human nature, but of course NASA's going to say that they were still able to get valuable information despite the crash. Their funding is probably on the line, and they don't wish to say "Oh yeah. That was a complete waste of money".
Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
Khan "Then you will transfer all data pertaining the project named..Genesis"
Kirk "Genesis? What's that?"
Khan "Don't insult my intelligence Kirk"
Kirk "Im not, the enterprise "SuperComputer," is working busily to find money-saving deals for you. You can even name your own price for this 'Genesis' "
Khan "Damn, I payed too much for staying at Ceti Alpha V"
Good News! I was afraid I was never going to hear the MIDI arrangement of "I Can't Dance" again. Oh...sorry. Wrong Genesis.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Four days until Darl claims that SCO owns Java.
There actually was no attempt made to catch the probe. The drogue chutes on the probe failed to deploy which made it impossible to effect any sort of a catch. (although you are right that the concept was essentially to catch the probe on a hook and a stick)
Maybe a lesson here; Design your space probes to hard-land in the first place, and dispense with parachutes, helicopters, stunt pilots, etc...
Dog is my co-pilot.
engineers often design for worst case scenarios, especially with space probes.
i wouldnt be suprised if they engineered the probe in such a way that even in catastrophic failure (eg lawn dart) there would still be a good chance of viable data.
I wonder if Geico will give me a quote for insuring a shuttle?
...Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you would not have been informed.
should be easy to tell the difference between solar wind particles which impacted the collectors at several km/s vs dust particles which simply settled on the surface.
I thought it was Stardust (sun is a star) or Data?
L O-13/mission-report.html/
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/Academy/History/APOL
Not to be too tinfoil hatted here but how can we believe anything they are saying?
Who is going to verify their findings? What if this is all just some smoke and mirror news stories now so we all thing "yea they'll get something for the $260 million spent" only to never ever hear about it again.
Before the thing even entered the atmosphere we had JPLers saying ANY crash would destroy the experiments. Well we got 200+ mph into the earth, split open, dust everywhere, broken little bits but everything is going to be A OK.
Huh?
Apple free since 1990!
"None had been fired," he said. "This points to a command and control problem," not to any failure of the parachutes themselves.
OK, maybe one of you lab rats can answer this but...
Call me irresponsible, but this guy went to all the effort to cover himself, then he leans over WITHOUT A MASK to work on a plate full of DUST!
I need a mask!
Frank W. Miller
NASA also announced today that Michael Ryschkewitsch ... would lead the Genesis Mishap Investigation Board (MIB) in an effort to determine the exact cause of the disaster.
MIB is investigating? This must be a crashed space ship, the whole Genesis project is just a big cover story. Thank you, Neurilizer.
This begs the question of why they thought it was necessary to have the Hollywood stuntman ending (literally), instead of just designing a reentry vehicle with a low terminal velocity and just letting it crash into the ocean for a softer landing.
Kind thoughts do not change the world
couldn't they have crashed into the sea, I know thwe sea is very hard at the crash speed, but not as hard as tyera ferma.
Obligatory Simpsons' quote
Homer: It's just a little dirty. It's still good, it's still good!
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
in a landmark scientific breakthrough, scientists have discovered that the solar wind contains large amounts of Aluminum Silicate... and termites.
seriously: how are you supposed to isolate/measure the relative amounts of trace elements/isotopes (e.g. He3) from the 'solar wind' after schmucking the collector panels into the dirt at a couple of hundered kmph?
Hey, maybe they should make a song about it, like this!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
For some reason, one of the datasets retrieved from the device is a human finger. Upon closer inspection, it appears to match other fingers collected from the Hollywood region of the southwestern coastal United States.
NASA can offer no conclusions at this time, but one NASA insider has speculated that this may indicate that California may, at one time, supported life.
-- clvrmnky
I'll refrain from making a really bad Wrath of Kahn joke now.
The days of the digital watch are numbered.
It's funny how we can land something on mars, that has a robotic vehicle inside, but we can't land a simple capsule on earth, with no vehicles inside.
I think that for $264M this is a pretty silly mistake...
Just my two grams of desert sand..
Skaag
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... time... to... die...
OK, I am really glad they were able to salvage something from this experiment, but please. "Isn't as bad as it appeared to be"? WTF! The fucking thing augered into the desert from freaking outer space! It was at least as bad as it "appeared" to be, probably WORSE!!! Dream up a worse case.
It just stood to reason.
With all the penny pinching within NASA, this could set a bad precident. From now on, return capsules will simply be allowed to ram into Earth. This'll save us millions of dollers in parachute costs.
if it broke apart when it hit the ocean, it would have sunk. this way we can pick up the pieces
Just another case of following procedures without really understanding why those procedures are in place. It's not like it's rocket science or anything...
Less is more.
The Genesis Project is safe because Data rescued it?
Chris Mattern
wiping off candy he dropped in the dirt, saying "it's still good..." with just a hint of doubt in his voice.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
umm...was I the only one who thought it was odd when they said they had *Hollywood*Stunt*Pilots* to do the retrieval...the deployment charges didn't work, but it's not as bad as they thought...Agent Muldar...Can you hear me now?
Future scientific analysis will show that the matter of our solar system is made out of a sandy substance that comes from a region of space called yootah. It is everywhere and permeates everything as we know it.
This also has lead to new techniques at Nasa that will allow them to rescue expensive space missions with a pair of tweezers.
All in all, I'd call it a good day.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Well hell, let's save a bunch of money and just crash all our probes into the earth. A little extra foam insulation never hurt. ;)
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
When is this agency going to get off its ass and come up with something that is meaningful to our nation and humanity as a whole instead of just pure science? I completely understand the need for pure scientific research but that is only going to lead to the slow death of interest and funding for space research and exploration. Everyone mocks Bush for his manned Mars plans and while I agree that they have issues, at least the administration is trying to push the envelope a little bit. We went to the moon decades ago based on responding to a challenge and national will and we haven't done shit since.
Just think of what could have been done with the money wasted on this project and the billions blown on the ISS if NASA had some true leadership, vision, and instituational courage to do something great. Instead we have a bloated bureaocracy that spends extreme amounts of money on safety and paperwork and STILL screws things up.
"Trying is only the first step towards failure." - Homer
When I heard about the probe crashing on
return I couldn't help but think of the 70s
science fiction movie, 'The Andromeda Strain'.
Great movie. If you've never seen it, the gist
is that a space probe returns to earth, and
unexpectedly, lands in/near a small town in
Nevada. Of course the towns people open the
probe only to unleash a virus upon themselves
which kills all the people in the town but two.
Well, I'll let you rent the movie to see how it
turns out. But, the coincidental, even spooky,
thing is that the Genesis probe returned to
of all places, Dugway Proving Grounds. Yeah,
odd huh. FYI, Dugway is where a lot of bio-
warfare experimentaion goes on.
aaaaaaaacchhooooooo! Oh.....ummm, don't worry, false alarm, everybody back to work.
Another first for the space program! Headlines: "Management Accepts Blame, Engineers OK"
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
when i saw the footage of that hunk of metal slamming into the desert floor, one thought came to mind: they are going to do whatever they can to make it look like they're getting useful data, because this was a very expensive screw-up, not too long after another big screw-up for NASA. sure, it's great to keep scientific purity, but if the scientific truth is "the sample is full of sand" and it means you could lose funding, wouldn't you be tempted to fudge a little?
Hmm, perhaps a parachute is a needless expense and we should land all spacecraft in the same way?
Oh great, that's all we need. Now SCO will be claiming they own the sun. Expect to see LightSource licenses selling in the $699 ball-park within the next couple of months.
Yeah, I've watched The Andromeda Strain many times - the way the pages riffle is really fascinating.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
enjoy!
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
i thought it was Spock that went in after the genesis module not Data. But i'm glad to hear that he's alright (even if he WAS blown up later)
</ducks, runs, hides>
Suchetha
learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
or one out of three ain't bad
Any crash you can walk away from is a good crash.
--NerdMachine