For commercial market share, Red Hat and Suse take the cake (and Red Hat gives the recipe for the icing). But there are a lot of people using Debian in a dizzying array of roles. You can't really measure the commercial rollout of Debian though. If you're just talking about home use, there's no way to tell.
The next release of Fedora Core, due in just over a month, won't have XFree 4.4 either. Given the dicussion on the debian-legal team, it sounds like Debian won't package XFree 4.4 as well. So it sounds like the major players are all rejecting XFree over the license, which leads me to believe this isn't just smoke. Red Hat is actually well known for pissing of its users by being strict about GPL compliance (no MP3, no NTFS, I think also no more pine, and now no UW-IMAP).
At the very least, the ongoing Debian packaging of 4.3 is apparently partially delayed by efforst to keep things prepared for a switch to the freedesktop.org stuff, so at least one major player already has a framework in place to ditch xfree86.
the XFree86 license doesn't require a runtime attribution. You need to put the attribution with the copyright and licenese documentation, and in the source.
Usually this involves tractors, harvesters, and other large pieces of farm equipment that generally run on.. d'oh! More fossil fuel!
And when we have powerful enough fuel-cell enginges, we won't have all that farm equipment relying on fossil fuels, so they will be taken out of the equation.
Is that about Legacy of Kain: Defiance? Awesome game. I've never played any of the Soulreaver games before, but I might check them out after playing Defiance. I think Legacy of Kain would be a good candidate game for an movie, it has quite a plot to it.
They are both RPM based, but they have different naming conventions so dependencies won't match up right. Some stuff might work right, but I wouldn't expect most of it to work.
I did absolutely nothing to get this to work on my Dell Latitude c400. Of course, I think I recently determined that it was going into suspend and not hibernate. Left it in that state for a few days with no power and the battery died. Plugged in AC power and it went through a full boot, telling me that it was shut down uncleanly. To enable hibernate, I can need to create a FAT partition and run a win32 program (downloaded from Dell's site) to create the hibernation file. After doing that, the BIOS should put it into hibernate using that file. No extra software installed or configured for Fedora. The exact same statements can be made for my IBM Thinkpad 600x (2645-5EU). Althought opening/closing the lid doesn't seem to trigger those events, but I think that's a BIOS thing, not a Linux thing.
Well, having Apt on Mandrake will only do you any good if there are some Apt repo's for Mandrake. I think the PLF (plf.zarb.org) has a tool to give you 3rd party urpmi repos, but I've never heard of Apt repos with Mandrake packages. That said, you can download apt from any number of sources, fedora.us and freshrpms.net coming to mind first. Although I would recommend grabbing the source package and compiling it on your system.
To be fair, they couldn't use the older version without dropping some kernel/glibc changes. Also, the things they did in GCC 2.96 were rolled back in to GCC 3.x. A lot of coders got pissed off because it wouldn't compile their code, complete leaving out the fact that their code wouldn't compile because it relied on GCC supporting broken (not standards-compliant) code.
The aggresive release schedule is one of the project goals to keep it current with OSS projects. Debian Unstable is updated rather frequently too, as is Mandrake Cooker, and Ark Dockyard, not sure if Suse has anything similar. The difference is that Fedora is actually a released distro, with official ISO images and everything. If you want a slower schedule and more tested software, you need to go to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. If you want a something that's updating daily, and don't care about and actual releases (ala Debian Unstable and friends) use Rawhide.
I was sitting out on my balcony at my last apartment hanging out with a friend from out of town. And some woman, admittedly attractive, pulled up in her truck and started moving in to a nearby apartment with her friend. Now, my frined and I did happen to glance at them a couple of times, but there was no conversation of any sort between us and the women, nor were we talking about them. Out of nowhere, she yells over up to us (I lived on the third floor) "Don't worry we'll move it all." Then when my wife arrived with groceries, and my friend and I go to help bring them in, this woman says to her "so that's how you get them to help, you have to give them food!" Now it's one thing to actually ask for help, thinking your looks will help. But to just get mad at a guy for being in the vicinity without jumping at the chance to help is just bitchy.
I had a similar experience, only it was with two people: a tatooed woman and a midget. The midget didn't last too long, but he surprised me. I felt pretty relieved when the woman got off the treadmill. I quickly got off my cross-trainer and felt even more relieved when I saw that she had merely moved to a cycle after getting off the treadmill. Then I realised I was secretly competing with a tatooed lady and a midget. I promptly shrunk my hands, bathed in cabbage, and joined a carnival.
I would actually like to see a worm turn c:\windows or c:\winnt into a fully restorable compressed archive, and then delete the folder. You can still restore your system, but man that would finally let people know just how vulnerable they are with all the Microsoft offerings.
RPM maintains metadata on the files installed by a package, including md5 checksums I believe. So you can run `rpm -V glibc` and it will list all files owned by package glibc which have been altered from their original installed state. It doesn't preserve overwritten files when upgrading except for config files, which it renames file.rpmsave or file.rpmorig. Sometimes it keeps the old config and writes the new one as file.rpmnew. I haven't yet managed to fully decipher when each is done though. I know I've read about rollback features in RHN, but I'm pretty sure that's only in reference to the RHEL product line.
If I compiled Xfree86 from source and XFree86 is a dep. for a package, it will not reconize my xfree86 because it's not in the database.
That has nothing to do with the package format though. That is pure policy of the maintainer. that is what makes debian so popular, they impose a strict policy on the volunteer maintainers. Fedora is Red Hat's step in that direction. People can volunteer to maintain packages, and they will have to adhere to a standard policy of naming conventions of listed dependencies.
We need to get rid of the database.
Hence this project. Have a standard database that any format (deb, rpm, and tgz for now) can read/write to, and a reliable dependency tracking across multiple sources that works with all those formats in the backend.
Have you ever tried to put RPM on a non-rpm distro?
If your system doesn't support RPM, then why use it? If you're going to package it yourself, why not grab the source and go straight to your native format? If you don't care about the dependencies, just rpm2cio and dump the contents into/opt/foo. I may be missing something, but it seems like you're just creating extra work for yourself. The project mentioned intends to remove the need for trying to run two separate package management systems.
I'm not familiar with Suse from that timeframe, 9.0 is the only one I've tried. But those days were the peak of RPM dependency-hell. There are several locations to get apt for Red Hat these days, and several well maintained 3rd party repos (fedora.us, freshrpms.net, jpackage, newrpms, atrpms, and dag wieers come to mind). The difference with the Debian distros is that they're all Debian plus some individual extra stuff. If Fedora.us and Freshrpms.net suddenly threw together an installer they would be the equivalent of thinks like knoppix and mepis and lycoric and such. You're still using the Debian repo's for all the core stuff. They just add some config tools, maybe a different menu system, some different default themes, and maybe repackage some stuff. I'd love to see some offerings like this come up in the Red Hat world. I thikn fedora is a step in that direction.
I have yet to use a distro that works as well for me as the Red Hat offerings. I've tried debian, suse, mandrake, corel, knoppix, gnoppix, slackware, and ark. I also tried freebsd. Each one works for some people, and not for others, deal with it.
You say the only sensible way is small source patches. So how do you get that first kernel? Are you suggesting that everyone cater only to the lowest common denominator and maybe only ship CD's to install from? To hell with features that make use of broadband? You sound like a self-righteous dick ranting about Microsoft and how your idea is the only thing that can possibly work. Some people like installing from source, some hate it. That's why we have a plethora of distributions to choose from, mein fuhrer.
But what we need is one package format that everyone can use. RPM's are a pain in the ass to put onto a distribution that wasn't built from the ground up from RPM's. They have almost no standard naming system for packages. They have to be linked against the exact same minor version of libs once they are installed. RPM's should be dumped. Deb's and Tgz's have the same problem. We need a fresh package format that, instead of keeping a database of installed packages, uses a./configure/autoconf like script to actually check for what's installed. Also, it needs NOT to use M4! It needs to be able to link against at least all minor versions it was linked against (maybe produce a warning to tell you).
You've fallen for a common misconception. The naming standards are adhered to within each distribution. but each distribution has different naming schemes. Packages which have dependencies on specific minor versions are not due to the RPM format itself, they are due to bad maintainers. If the major RPM distros would agree to a single naming convention, We would see large scale community repos which could then enforce a policy for lib depencies. Maybe a whole distro, called rpmian.;)
we are only inches further with binary package formats than we were 10 years ago!!!!
10 years ago I started with Slackware, and quickly moved to Red Hat. I've tried out Debian and its various step-children, and Mandrake, Suse, and Ark. I think binary package management is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was a decade ago. Dependency tracking has improved, RPM has GPG signature and MD5 checksum verification.
The last time there was a big discussion on package formats, probably when the Debian servers were cracked there were a few links to a couple of projects. Like dpkg-gpg or dpkg-secure, or apt-secure, stuff like that. It was all stuff off individual developer pages, but they were all official debian developers. Here's one link I found: http://monk.debian.net/apt-secure/
That said, I think up2date is a pretty absymal package management system, last time I recall it doesn't even solve dependencies automatically, which is why I prefer APT (w/ Synaptic of course) for most things
When was that, the initial design phase? up2date was written specifically to address the problems of dependencies and automated errata installation. In Fedora Core, up2date supports APT repositories (and YUM repos as well). My rhn_applet lets me know when the fedora.us and freshrpms.net Apt repos have new packages to upgrade to. It even lets me know when one of the three repos I have configured (RH's yum repo for core and updates, fedora.us and freshrpms.net Apt repos for extras) has a newer package then the version I have installed from a different repo. For example, I recently noticed apt/synaptic did not inform me that the gstreamer-* packages all jumped to 0.6.4 on freshrpms.net because I had the 6.3 set installed from the Red Hat repo. What actually happened was it noticed the two extra packages from freshrpms.net had upgraded, but not the base packages. Trying to upgrade based on Apt's selections told me I had to upgrade the some of the base pacakges, but not all. But that failed. In order to upgrade with apt/synaptic, I had to manual pin each of the gstreamer pacakges, in a particular order. This led to 6 other packages being installed, which apparently is why Apt wouldn't upgrade all the gstreamer packages automagically. up2date, on the other hand did notice, and alerted me, and then proceeded to upgrade them and install all new dependencies without any hassle.
Red Hat engineers are also reportedly working on a standardized repo format, so that maintainers don't have to apt-ify, yum-ify, urpmi-ify, and yast-ify their collections to satisfy everyone.
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For commercial market share, Red Hat and Suse take the cake (and Red Hat gives the recipe for the icing). But there are a lot of people using Debian in a dizzying array of roles. You can't really measure the commercial rollout of Debian though. If you're just talking about home use, there's no way to tell.
At the very least, the ongoing Debian packaging of 4.3 is apparently partially delayed by efforst to keep things prepared for a switch to the freedesktop.org stuff, so at least one major player already has a framework in place to ditch xfree86.
the XFree86 license doesn't require a runtime attribution. You need to put the attribution with the copyright and licenese documentation, and in the source.
I haven't seen XV in RedHat in years, nor do I remember Netscape being distributed with it.
And when we have powerful enough fuel-cell enginges, we won't have all that farm equipment relying on fossil fuels, so they will be taken out of the equation.
Is that about Legacy of Kain: Defiance? Awesome game. I've never played any of the Soulreaver games before, but I might check them out after playing Defiance. I think Legacy of Kain would be a good candidate game for an movie, it has quite a plot to it.
They are both RPM based, but they have different naming conventions so dependencies won't match up right. Some stuff might work right, but I wouldn't expect most of it to work.
I did absolutely nothing to get this to work on my Dell Latitude c400. Of course, I think I recently determined that it was going into suspend and not hibernate. Left it in that state for a few days with no power and the battery died. Plugged in AC power and it went through a full boot, telling me that it was shut down uncleanly. To enable hibernate, I can need to create a FAT partition and run a win32 program (downloaded from Dell's site) to create the hibernation file. After doing that, the BIOS should put it into hibernate using that file. No extra software installed or configured for Fedora. The exact same statements can be made for my IBM Thinkpad 600x (2645-5EU). Althought opening/closing the lid doesn't seem to trigger those events, but I think that's a BIOS thing, not a Linux thing.
"Go feed your lion some tofu" is a reference to Futurama. One of the people protesting with Leela is a hippy who taught his lion to eat tofu.
Well, having Apt on Mandrake will only do you any good if there are some Apt repo's for Mandrake. I think the PLF (plf.zarb.org) has a tool to give you 3rd party urpmi repos, but I've never heard of Apt repos with Mandrake packages. That said, you can download apt from any number of sources, fedora.us and freshrpms.net coming to mind first. Although I would recommend grabbing the source package and compiling it on your system.
To be fair, they couldn't use the older version without dropping some kernel/glibc changes. Also, the things they did in GCC 2.96 were rolled back in to GCC 3.x. A lot of coders got pissed off because it wouldn't compile their code, complete leaving out the fact that their code wouldn't compile because it relied on GCC supporting broken (not standards-compliant) code.
The aggresive release schedule is one of the project goals to keep it current with OSS projects. Debian Unstable is updated rather frequently too, as is Mandrake Cooker, and Ark Dockyard, not sure if Suse has anything similar. The difference is that Fedora is actually a released distro, with official ISO images and everything. If you want a slower schedule and more tested software, you need to go to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. If you want a something that's updating daily, and don't care about and actual releases (ala Debian Unstable and friends) use Rawhide.
don't be hella-hatin'
Really? I just did a Personal Desktop install the other day and it only required discs 1 and 2, perhaps minimal isn't so minimal.
I was sitting out on my balcony at my last apartment hanging out with a friend from out of town. And some woman, admittedly attractive, pulled up in her truck and started moving in to a nearby apartment with her friend. Now, my frined and I did happen to glance at them a couple of times, but there was no conversation of any sort between us and the women, nor were we talking about them. Out of nowhere, she yells over up to us (I lived on the third floor) "Don't worry we'll move it all." Then when my wife arrived with groceries, and my friend and I go to help bring them in, this woman says to her "so that's how you get them to help, you have to give them food!" Now it's one thing to actually ask for help, thinking your looks will help. But to just get mad at a guy for being in the vicinity without jumping at the chance to help is just bitchy.
I had a similar experience, only it was with two people: a tatooed woman and a midget. The midget didn't last too long, but he surprised me. I felt pretty relieved when the woman got off the treadmill. I quickly got off my cross-trainer and felt even more relieved when I saw that she had merely moved to a cycle after getting off the treadmill. Then I realised I was secretly competing with a tatooed lady and a midget. I promptly shrunk my hands, bathed in cabbage, and joined a carnival.
I would actually like to see a worm turn c:\windows or c:\winnt into a fully restorable compressed archive, and then delete the folder. You can still restore your system, but man that would finally let people know just how vulnerable they are with all the Microsoft offerings.
kettle: pot, you're black.
RPM maintains metadata on the files installed by a package, including md5 checksums I believe. So you can run `rpm -V glibc` and it will list all files owned by package glibc which have been altered from their original installed state. It doesn't preserve overwritten files when upgrading except for config files, which it renames file.rpmsave or file.rpmorig. Sometimes it keeps the old config and writes the new one as file.rpmnew. I haven't yet managed to fully decipher when each is done though. I know I've read about rollback features in RHN, but I'm pretty sure that's only in reference to the RHEL product line.
That has nothing to do with the package format though. That is pure policy of the maintainer. that is what makes debian so popular, they impose a strict policy on the volunteer maintainers. Fedora is Red Hat's step in that direction. People can volunteer to maintain packages, and they will have to adhere to a standard policy of naming conventions of listed dependencies.
We need to get rid of the database.
Hence this project. Have a standard database that any format (deb, rpm, and tgz for now) can read/write to, and a reliable dependency tracking across multiple sources that works with all those formats in the backend.
Have you ever tried to put RPM on a non-rpm distro?
If your system doesn't support RPM, then why use it? If you're going to package it yourself, why not grab the source and go straight to your native format? If you don't care about the dependencies, just rpm2cio and dump the contents into /opt/foo. I may be missing something, but it seems like you're just creating extra work for yourself. The project mentioned intends to remove the need for trying to run two separate package management systems.
I'm not familiar with Suse from that timeframe, 9.0 is the only one I've tried. But those days were the peak of RPM dependency-hell. There are several locations to get apt for Red Hat these days, and several well maintained 3rd party repos (fedora.us, freshrpms.net, jpackage, newrpms, atrpms, and dag wieers come to mind). The difference with the Debian distros is that they're all Debian plus some individual extra stuff. If Fedora.us and Freshrpms.net suddenly threw together an installer they would be the equivalent of thinks like knoppix and mepis and lycoric and such. You're still using the Debian repo's for all the core stuff. They just add some config tools, maybe a different menu system, some different default themes, and maybe repackage some stuff. I'd love to see some offerings like this come up in the Red Hat world. I thikn fedora is a step in that direction.
I have yet to use a distro that works as well for me as the Red Hat offerings. I've tried debian, suse, mandrake, corel, knoppix, gnoppix, slackware, and ark. I also tried freebsd. Each one works for some people, and not for others, deal with it.
You say the only sensible way is small source patches. So how do you get that first kernel? Are you suggesting that everyone cater only to the lowest common denominator and maybe only ship CD's to install from? To hell with features that make use of broadband? You sound like a self-righteous dick ranting about Microsoft and how your idea is the only thing that can possibly work. Some people like installing from source, some hate it. That's why we have a plethora of distributions to choose from, mein fuhrer.
You've fallen for a common misconception. The naming standards are adhered to within each distribution. but each distribution has different naming schemes. Packages which have dependencies on specific minor versions are not due to the RPM format itself, they are due to bad maintainers. If the major RPM distros would agree to a single naming convention, We would see large scale community repos which could then enforce a policy for lib depencies. Maybe a whole distro, called rpmian. ;)
we are only inches further with binary package formats than we were 10 years ago!!!!
10 years ago I started with Slackware, and quickly moved to Red Hat. I've tried out Debian and its various step-children, and Mandrake, Suse, and Ark. I think binary package management is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was a decade ago. Dependency tracking has improved, RPM has GPG signature and MD5 checksum verification.
The last time there was a big discussion on package formats, probably when the Debian servers were cracked there were a few links to a couple of projects. Like dpkg-gpg or dpkg-secure, or apt-secure, stuff like that. It was all stuff off individual developer pages, but they were all official debian developers. Here's one link I found: http://monk.debian.net/apt-secure/
When was that, the initial design phase? up2date was written specifically to address the problems of dependencies and automated errata installation. In Fedora Core, up2date supports APT repositories (and YUM repos as well). My rhn_applet lets me know when the fedora.us and freshrpms.net Apt repos have new packages to upgrade to. It even lets me know when one of the three repos I have configured (RH's yum repo for core and updates, fedora.us and freshrpms.net Apt repos for extras) has a newer package then the version I have installed from a different repo. For example, I recently noticed apt/synaptic did not inform me that the gstreamer-* packages all jumped to 0.6.4 on freshrpms.net because I had the 6.3 set installed from the Red Hat repo. What actually happened was it noticed the two extra packages from freshrpms.net had upgraded, but not the base packages. Trying to upgrade based on Apt's selections told me I had to upgrade the some of the base pacakges, but not all. But that failed. In order to upgrade with apt/synaptic, I had to manual pin each of the gstreamer pacakges, in a particular order. This led to 6 other packages being installed, which apparently is why Apt wouldn't upgrade all the gstreamer packages automagically. up2date, on the other hand did notice, and alerted me, and then proceeded to upgrade them and install all new dependencies without any hassle.
Red Hat engineers are also reportedly working on a standardized repo format, so that maintainers don't have to apt-ify, yum-ify, urpmi-ify, and yast-ify their collections to satisfy everyone.