Do you really think it matters? Users aren't stupid. Most people can figure out that a higher versioned software isn't necessarily better. People have been doing this with model years and TV model names for years, the computer industry isn't so f*cking 'leet that people can't figure out revisioning. (there are exceptions, but you have idiots who use gearshits to hold handbags too.) The problem with Linux isn't the fact that the kernel and the distro have two seperate numbers (it really isn't an issue, MS has had seperate version numbers for DirectX and Windows or Word and Windows for a long time) but the fact that people aren't really clear on what "Linux" is. If the distro makers would stop calling their products "Linux" or somebody would change the name of the kernel to something else, then it wouldn't be confusing. In the end, it really doesn't make a rat's @ss of a difference. People shouldn't really care what kernel version is in there anyway. (For those 'leet users, not having the low-level system info shoved in your face doesn't make you any less 'leet. It just means you have to dig around in/proc from now on.) The kernel is just another part of a well organized, coherent whole that is the LinuxOS. (Yea right...)
Well, releasing a GPL driver wouldn't violate the GPL as I understand it. Doesn't it only violate the GPL when the product is *distributed* with linked-in GPL code? That means if someone in the community ports a GPL driver, it doesn't really count as a GPL violation, right? Also, the GPL gets a little silly with stuff like BeOS. It's not like its being compiled in or anything, its a totally independant (partly userspace even) module. Does the GPL really intend to prevent users from extending closed source apps with their own GPL'ed software?
What exactly is your arguement? Sure game's use widget sets, but most use their own, custom ones, or derive one from something like SDL. My point is that most games don't use *standard* widget sets (the initial post was about GTK+, remember?) and most major commercial ones don't even use pre-made ones, but make their own in order to suit the mood of the game. Also, a widget set for a game isn't exactly the most challenging task, since they are simplistic and totally overshadowed by engine design.
Really. That explains why I ran BeOS 5 PE as my only OS for a month before I got Pro! Idiot. All you have to do is download the Linux version (I'm assuming you have an OS to begin with!) and burn image.be onto a CD. Then boot from the included floppy and install the think to its own partition. Voila, no 512MB limit, full SMP, etc. In fact, everything except the develop tools (ftp.be.com, or Tucows) and RealPlayer and BInkJet drivers for the HP printers (which are both pay-ware to begin with.)
Which would explain why Opera 4 is being ported, right? Seriously, though, the Linux browser tech isn't much better. They've got Mozilla, we've got BeZilla (which, btw is being actively developed, just go check BeNews) Netscape 4.x is effectivly unusable (compared to IE), and KHTML doesn't have any more features than Opera 4 (which, btw, also seems to be being ported.)
Be has essentially abandoned users of its operating system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*this* arguement again? I'm reading high-down, and I was happy with the general reaction, until this. Would you please care to support your statement here? I say that Be hasn't abandonded its desktop users. My support is that OpenGL is near completion (let's see which comes out first, 2.4 or BeGL;) multi_audio (multi-channel audio) is being upgraded, game_audio (audio for gaming oriented cards like SBLive!) is being released, BONE (a new network environment) is in late beta testing, and the Interface Kit (the UI programming API) is being actively improved. If this stuff comes out in a point release, it will effectively have more improvements than kernel 2.4. From this level of activity, I really can't see how you can say that Be has abandoned BeOS.
either MS will stamp on them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is funny. I just recently saw a Casio Casiopia handheld for $399. 16MB of RAM, 133MHz processor, great color screen, ability to play MP3s, Pocket Office, full internet access, etc. For $399 you can also get a color Palm handheld, with 256 colors (much less than the Casio) a 20MHz proc, and 8MB of RAM. Guess which one is selling better? MS is totally out of their league here. In the embedded market, their not st*o*mping on anyone!
At that time BeOS couldn't print, but NeXTStep needed UI-easierizer treatment as well, so the engineering cost balances out. Also, *NIX isn't any more MacOS compatible than BeOS. Writing the Classic environment for BeOS wouldn't have been much easier. NeXT DID have several cool technologies though, which is why I think Apple went for them. However, most of those cool technologies were utterly useless for the home market. And the ccol technologies that WERE usefull, Apple ended rewriting anyway (Quartz.) So in the end, all you really got from using NeXTStep was Jobs (who's value shouldn't be underestimated by any means) and the NeXT Objective C model (who's value is probably overestimated for the target market.)
I never said games used/standard/ widget sets, just that they use widget sets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, "widget set" is a *NIX term, and when someone says it, the first thing I think of is GTK+, Qt, or somesuch thing. I think for games the appropriate term is "UI chrome";)
That they don't frequently use standard ones is unfortunate, as it's Yet Another Task that game
programmers have to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe, widget sets often CAN'T be used. For example, any windows game that uses DirectDraw or Direct3D cannot use the system widget set since everything except low level primatives don't work on DD surfaces. Also, using system widgets sets makes the game much less portable.
And there/are/ still games like {Free,}Civ where standard widget sets are used... your blanket "games don't use widget sets" is wrong even if
reinterpreted to refer only to standard widget sets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who cares about FreeCiv? If only.001% of a group does soemthing, it really isn't worth using the qualifier "most." EX. The statements "People don't castrate themselves on purpose" and "Most people don't castrate themselves on purpose" are functionally equivilant. Sure, it's a blanket statement, and some people DO castrate themselves on purpose, but the number is so small, it's not worth mentioning.
BTW: Unreal also uses the system widgets, but only in some screens.
It has a 128 bit(!)
>>>>>>>>>>
We've had 128 bit processors ever since the PIII came out. Console manufacturers will use the widest thing on the chip to talk about the "bitness" of a console. Thus, the reason PS2 is a 128bit console is the fact that the vector pipes are 128bits. Using that logic, Intel could call a Pentium an 80bit chip (the FPU is 80 bits), and Intel and Motorola could call the P4 and the G4 (respectively) 128 bit chips (because both SSE2 and AltiVec are 128bit vector pipes.) PC companies stopped doing this after Neomagic came out with a 256bit graphics chip (the memory bus was 256bits) for laptops.
To me, the fact that proves X is bloated is the 20MB of binaries I need to download to run it. I'm sorry, but when BeOS and QNX are doing full scale GUIs (toolkits and all) in a couple of MB, 20, or even 10MB is seriously bloated.
They're not standard GUI widgets. They are custom made in game widgets. They don't use the system GUI code (like GTK+ widgets) but draw their own directly onto the screen. CivCTP has widgets, for example, and it uses SDL. Thus, it must be drawing its own, non? Same thing for Everquest. The widgets aren't just pixmap'd (something that Win32 doesn't allow you to do) but are widgets that use the in-game event handling and drawing code.
Do you mean that you've never been so insult-ed? If so, then you really need to get out more. No offense, but if a comment about how American cars are crappy, and that nobody in their right mind would buy a Cadillac (if you've got that much money, buy something, *anything* German) offends you, then you've obviously been living in a bubble all your life. Save your indignation for times when it is called for!
Re:Not very interesting for non-pda employment
on
GTK+ without X!
·
· Score: 2
Its not an fb driver performance issue, it is the fact that fb is just that, the frame buffer. There are some drivers that implement hardware acceleration for the frame buffer, but others just give you memory area to write to.
X doesn't use the fb, (well, some versions do, but not normally) but uses user-mode drivers that use hardware acceleration.
Grub IS in the same position as Lilo. When the PC boots, it first loads the MBR. (In this case, part of GRUB.) Then, GRUB loads the rest of itself and displays the boot menu. Finally, it does stuff like switch into protected mode, etc, and allows you to load a kernel. The fb device isn't actually available until the kernel is loaded, and by then, GRUB is already gone. The only way to do GTK in GRUB would be to compile glib, GTK+, and the kernel fb code into the bootloader. (A scary proposition, since GRUB itself, at 37K is horrendously bloated for a boot-loader.)
Your comment would be funny, except its not. According to the second part of the quote, the girl apparently already knew UNIX, thus the movie says nothing about its intuitiveness. I hate being anal-retentive, but your oversight more or less ruins the joke. (I am dead serious here)
You fell for a guy who bought a Cadillac? And you *knew* that it was an extension of his personality? What was he, 70? Oh, I see, its one of those "modern" relationships...
Speaking of OSs in movies, BeIA is in Ahhnold's new movie. From BeNews,
"... The fridge was shown twice during the movie, once in the beginning where Arnie tried to get some milk off the fridge and then he just
clicked some buttons on the touch screen and once near the end, when the "bad guys" went there to find Arnie, but they couldn't find him around. BUT, the IA
'betrayed' Arnie, because it was written on it his "Schedule of the Day", so they knew where to find him..."
Besides that, its just not elegant. I don't change the hardware on my machine every other day, and after I know the thing is setup correctly, I really would rather look at a nice bootup screen than see that useless text scroll by.
The problem with Linux booting isn't the text, its the fact that the text is butt-ugly and poorly formated. ReiserFS even does the no-no of running over a line (which you really don't want to do for a status messege.) If the bootup text was succinct (who cares about every single device enumerated unless you specify a verbose boot?) well formated, and well-organized (system messages, fs messeges, etc in order, and no stupid stuff like saying that the messege is coming from usb.c instead of the usb subsystem) then I think many more people would appreciate the Linux text boot.
Of course, if it booted as fast as BeOS, the whole splash screen issue becomes more or less irrelevant;)
Slashdot Mirror
Do you really think it matters? Users aren't stupid. Most people can figure out that a higher versioned software isn't necessarily better. People have been doing this with model years and TV model names for years, the computer industry isn't so f*cking 'leet that people can't figure out revisioning. (there are exceptions, but you have idiots who use gearshits to hold handbags too.) The problem with Linux isn't the fact that the kernel and the distro have two seperate numbers (it really isn't an issue, MS has had seperate version numbers for DirectX and Windows or Word and Windows for a long time) but the fact that people aren't really clear on what "Linux" is. If the distro makers would stop calling their products "Linux" or somebody would change the name of the kernel to something else, then it wouldn't be confusing. In the end, it really doesn't make a rat's @ss of a difference. People shouldn't really care what kernel version is in there anyway. (For those 'leet users, not having the low-level system info shoved in your face doesn't make you any less 'leet. It just means you have to dig around in /proc from now on.) The kernel is just another part of a well organized, coherent whole that is the LinuxOS. (Yea right...)
Well, trolls usually don't run Windows.
Well, releasing a GPL driver wouldn't violate the GPL as I understand it. Doesn't it only violate the GPL when the product is *distributed* with linked-in GPL code? That means if someone in the community ports a GPL driver, it doesn't really count as a GPL violation, right? Also, the GPL gets a little silly with stuff like BeOS. It's not like its being compiled in or anything, its a totally independant (partly userspace even) module. Does the GPL really intend to prevent users from extending closed source apps with their own GPL'ed software?
What exactly is your arguement? Sure game's use widget sets, but most use their own, custom ones, or derive one from something like SDL. My point is that most games don't use *standard* widget sets (the initial post was about GTK+, remember?) and most major commercial ones don't even use pre-made ones, but make their own in order to suit the mood of the game. Also, a widget set for a game isn't exactly the most challenging task, since they are simplistic and totally overshadowed by engine design.
Really. That explains why I ran BeOS 5 PE as my only OS for a month before I got Pro! Idiot. All you have to do is download the Linux version (I'm assuming you have an OS to begin with!) and burn image.be onto a CD. Then boot from the included floppy and install the think to its own partition. Voila, no 512MB limit, full SMP, etc. In fact, everything except the develop tools (ftp.be.com, or Tucows) and RealPlayer and BInkJet drivers for the HP printers (which are both pay-ware to begin with.)
Which would explain why Opera 4 is being ported, right? Seriously, though, the Linux browser tech isn't much better. They've got Mozilla, we've got BeZilla (which, btw is being actively developed, just go check BeNews) Netscape 4.x is effectivly unusable (compared to IE), and KHTML doesn't have any more features than Opera 4 (which, btw, also seems to be being ported.)
Be has essentially abandoned users of its operating system. ;) multi_audio (multi-channel audio) is being upgraded, game_audio (audio for gaming oriented cards like SBLive!) is being released, BONE (a new network environment) is in late beta testing, and the Interface Kit (the UI programming API) is being actively improved. If this stuff comes out in a point release, it will effectively have more improvements than kernel 2.4. From this level of activity, I really can't see how you can say that Be has abandoned BeOS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
*this* arguement again? I'm reading high-down, and I was happy with the general reaction, until this. Would you please care to support your statement here? I say that Be hasn't abandonded its desktop users. My support is that OpenGL is near completion (let's see which comes out first, 2.4 or BeGL
either MS will stamp on them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is funny. I just recently saw a Casio Casiopia handheld for $399. 16MB of RAM, 133MHz processor, great color screen, ability to play MP3s, Pocket Office, full internet access, etc. For $399 you can also get a color Palm handheld, with 256 colors (much less than the Casio) a 20MHz proc, and 8MB of RAM. Guess which one is selling better? MS is totally out of their league here. In the embedded market, their not st*o*mping on anyone!
Actually, some people on BeDevTalk are trying to port a PCMCIA ethernet driver, so keep on the look out ;)
At that time BeOS couldn't print, but NeXTStep needed UI-easierizer treatment as well, so the engineering cost balances out. Also, *NIX isn't any more MacOS compatible than BeOS. Writing the Classic environment for BeOS wouldn't have been much easier. NeXT DID have several cool technologies though, which is why I think Apple went for them. However, most of those cool technologies were utterly useless for the home market. And the ccol technologies that WERE usefull, Apple ended rewriting anyway (Quartz.) So in the end, all you really got from using NeXTStep was Jobs (who's value shouldn't be underestimated by any means) and the NeXT Objective C model (who's value is probably overestimated for the target market.)
I never said games used /standard/ widget sets, just that they use widget sets.
;)
/are/ still games like {Free,}Civ where standard widget sets are used... your blanket "games don't use widget sets" is wrong even if
.001% of a group does soemthing, it really isn't worth using the qualifier "most." EX. The statements "People don't castrate themselves on purpose" and "Most people don't castrate themselves on purpose" are functionally equivilant. Sure, it's a blanket statement, and some people DO castrate themselves on purpose, but the number is so small, it's not worth mentioning.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, "widget set" is a *NIX term, and when someone says it, the first thing I think of is GTK+, Qt, or somesuch thing. I think for games the appropriate term is "UI chrome"
That they don't frequently use standard ones is unfortunate, as it's Yet Another Task that game
programmers have to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe, widget sets often CAN'T be used. For example, any windows game that uses DirectDraw or Direct3D cannot use the system widget set since everything except low level primatives don't work on DD surfaces. Also, using system widgets sets makes the game much less portable.
And there
reinterpreted to refer only to standard widget sets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who cares about FreeCiv? If only
BTW: Unreal also uses the system widgets, but only in some screens.
It has a 128 bit(!)
>>>>>>>>>>
We've had 128 bit processors ever since the PIII came out. Console manufacturers will use the widest thing on the chip to talk about the "bitness" of a console. Thus, the reason PS2 is a 128bit console is the fact that the vector pipes are 128bits. Using that logic, Intel could call a Pentium an 80bit chip (the FPU is 80 bits), and Intel and Motorola could call the P4 and the G4 (respectively) 128 bit chips (because both SSE2 and AltiVec are 128bit vector pipes.) PC companies stopped doing this after Neomagic came out with a 256bit graphics chip (the memory bus was 256bits) for laptops.
To me, the fact that proves X is bloated is the 20MB of binaries I need to download to run it. I'm sorry, but when BeOS and QNX are doing full scale GUIs (toolkits and all) in a couple of MB, 20, or even 10MB is seriously bloated.
Why? GDK IS that plugin system!
They're not standard GUI widgets. They are custom made in game widgets. They don't use the system GUI code (like GTK+ widgets) but draw their own directly onto the screen. CivCTP has widgets, for example, and it uses SDL. Thus, it must be drawing its own, non? Same thing for Everquest. The widgets aren't just pixmap'd (something that Win32 doesn't allow you to do) but are widgets that use the in-game event handling and drawing code.
Do you mean that you've never been so insult-ed? If so, then you really need to get out more. No offense, but if a comment about how American cars are crappy, and that nobody in their right mind would buy a Cadillac (if you've got that much money, buy something, *anything* German) offends you, then you've obviously been living in a bubble all your life. Save your indignation for times when it is called for!
Its not an fb driver performance issue, it is the fact that fb is just that, the frame buffer. There are some drivers that implement hardware acceleration for the frame buffer, but others just give you memory area to write to.
X doesn't use the fb, (well, some versions do, but not normally) but uses user-mode drivers that use hardware acceleration.
Grub IS in the same position as Lilo. When the PC boots, it first loads the MBR. (In this case, part of GRUB.) Then, GRUB loads the rest of itself and displays the boot menu. Finally, it does stuff like switch into protected mode, etc, and allows you to load a kernel. The fb device isn't actually available until the kernel is loaded, and by then, GRUB is already gone. The only way to do GTK in GRUB would be to compile glib, GTK+, and the kernel fb code into the bootloader. (A scary proposition, since GRUB itself, at 37K is horrendously bloated for a boot-loader.)
uh, no... SDL has no graphical widget set (at least no good one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Uh, games don't use graphical widgets!
I don't quite understand what you just said... Either way, I didn't mean any offense, it was just an anti-american car joke.
Maybe I should be less subtle.
"This is UNIX. I know this."
Your comment would be funny, except its not. According to the second part of the quote, the girl apparently already knew UNIX, thus the movie says nothing about its intuitiveness. I hate being anal-retentive, but your oversight more or less ruins the joke. (I am dead serious here)
You fell for a guy who bought a Cadillac? And you *knew* that it was an extension of his personality? What was he, 70? Oh, I see, its one of those "modern" relationships...
Speaking of OSs in movies, BeIA is in Ahhnold's new movie. From BeNews,
;)
"... The fridge was shown twice during the movie, once in the beginning where Arnie tried to get some milk off the fridge and then he just
clicked some buttons on the touch screen and once near the end, when the "bad guys" went there to find Arnie, but they couldn't find him around. BUT, the IA
'betrayed' Arnie, because it was written on it his "Schedule of the Day", so they knew where to find him..."
Get the article here from BeNews
Yea, you don't care. Go ahead and -1 Offtopic it, see if I care
*NIX is now officially too flexible...
That's just crazy, plain and simple crazy.
Besides that, its just not elegant. I don't change the hardware on my machine every other day, and after I know the thing is setup correctly, I really would rather look at a nice bootup screen than see that useless text scroll by.
No, the Mandrake bootup does not look beautiful. It looks lavender. Very, very lavender. Positively puke-inducing.
Who came up with the color scheme (lavander and purple!) anyway, Mary Poppins?
The problem with Linux booting isn't the text, its the fact that the text is butt-ugly and poorly formated. ReiserFS even does the no-no of running over a line (which you really don't want to do for a status messege.) If the bootup text was succinct (who cares about every single device enumerated unless you specify a verbose boot?) well formated, and well-organized (system messages, fs messeges, etc in order, and no stupid stuff like saying that the messege is coming from usb.c instead of the usb subsystem) then I think many more people would appreciate the Linux text boot.
;)
Of course, if it booted as fast as BeOS, the whole splash screen issue becomes more or less irrelevant