As a long-time UNIX (many flavors) programmer who has worked professionally as a Windows programmer for the past 4 years, I agree with the anonymous, to a degree.
IMO it is more correct to say that you cannot be a competent programmer and not be able to figure out, if needed, how to use a command-line.
I rarely have to worry about using the command-line for programming (though it is there), but when I do have to worry about it (for example -- in Visual C++ 6.0, some compiler and linker options weren't available directly from the UI, one would have to specify them as command-line options to the compiler/linker), I could. Knowing how to use command-lines also allows you to set up nice pre/post build scripts in Visual Studio that can really simplify things (copying DLLs to a shared location after being built, or whatever).
Though I'm generally against the silly minimalist approach many UNIX zealots take with regards to computer use and programming (for example, those who think anyone who uses an IDE is inferior, or whatever), given the choice I'd always prefer to work with programmers who are at least somewhat comfortable using command-lines. Anyone who has no clue in that area has probably not built a serious application. Even on the classic Mac, someone who has created a large application has probably done some scripting in MPW which is a form of command-line.
And I don't think it's time to get over it. Microsoft used every resource at its disposal to "cut off their air supply"
Might not have even been an issue (since Microsoft might have seen the light too late) if loud-mouth jerkoffs like Barksdale, Andressen, Ellison and McNealy didn't huff and puff all throughout 1995-1997 about how their new web browser platform was going to destroy Microsoft. I have no sympathy for any of these jackasses.
Please see my other response under this thread. I specifically said "newer model" two-way radios because I'm talking about GMRS, which is what most radio makers, including Motorola, are now pushing in the consumer space for 2-5 mile (supposedly -- ideal conditions and all that) communications.
Yes, I am talking about GMRS, which are now being sold as consumer solutions (check, for example, amazon.com, they have models for sale for less than $100 by Motorola and Cobra).
I know a number of people who use them to transmit up to about 5 miles to coordinate when on skiing trips, etc. None of the people I know who uses them has a license, and most of the have 22 channel systems and don't stick to the lower 14.
Technically you need a radio license with similar expensive fees to run most of the newer model "two-way radios" (read: Walkie Talkies) here in the US.
Virtually noone actually applies for them, and I'm not aware of anyone getting nabbed for it..
YMMV, don't try this in places where you might end up in a dark hole for years for flaunting such regulations (luckily we're about 2-3 years away from that situation in the US, phew!)
I think your brain is getting tripped up on "Windows CE" and is thinking CE == PDA, which is not at all the case. PDAs are a very small subset of all consumer electronics.
This is obviously some use of the word 'new' with which I am not familiar.
The.NET CLR alone is more innovative than anything the OSS community has produced in the past 5 years.
Time to wake up and realize that Microsoft of 2003 isn't Microsoft of 1991 and when you put 3 billion dollars per year into R&D it tends to translate into some Really Cool Shit.
You can badmouth Microsoft's business practices all you want, and I'd support you on that issue, but to try to pretend that their recent software isn't a highwater mark in the industry is to be a fool in denial.
Most people these days realize that Mozilla is just a repacking of Netscape, except the Mozilla group removes all of AOL's useful ad-serving technology.
I also think Garrison's story is remarkable in that you'd think just about anyone would have better things to do with his or her time than crack a fake cipher being used as a promotional tool for a book.
..and Stephen King. That guy has died more than 500 times by now if my count of Slashdot posts is correct. I wonder if all the mainstream media places are keeping it under wraps because they don't want us to know he's an unstoppable super monster.
You have to relearn stuff for new versions of Office or Photoshop or whatever, deal.
Yeah that's a real convincing argument to give to a CEO who is worried about how much lost time (== $) there will be due to the switchover, and how much it will cost in retraining.
Newsflash: Not everyone is you. Most people just want their computer to work the way it always has. Changing things on these people is very disruptive.
Also, these people aren't "dumb", necessarily, I've known a few certified geniuses that just weren't "computer people".
The real answer is this guy doesn't really need support. As long as he doesn't add new hardware he won't need to change his systems at all. If the systems don't need to be on the general Internet, and it sounds like they don't, security is likely a non-issue, just keep them firewalled off. So 5, 10 years from now he'll have exactly what he has now, nothing more, nothing less. If that works for him today it will work for him tomorrow.
In any event, its still kind of silly to say Sun doomed Java because it sucked when it was MS that made it suck.
Did Microsoft misdesign AWT? Did Microsoft then go on the complete opposite end of the scale and overdesign Swing to the point where it was feature rich but slow as a dog, making pure Java unusable for serious desktop apps with UI needs of more than one simple list box?
I was paid as a Java programmer for almost 3 years -- all server-side Java. Java is great on the server, but it SUCKS, SUCKS, SUCKS on the desktop, even with Hotspot, which was supposed to make it much better.
Good Java performance on the desktop is one of those things that is perpetually "about 6 months away", so please don't bother telling me how much Java 1.5 or x.y is going to fix all these issues, instead point me to REAL, SERIOUS commercial applications using Java on the desktop if you want me to take you seriously. And no, Java IDEs written in Java don't count, I want to see actual apps that end-users might use.
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All that and he also won 4 Cy Young awards for his pitching. Go Greg Maddox, go! A real American hero!
IMO it is more correct to say that you cannot be a competent programmer and not be able to figure out, if needed, how to use a command-line.
I rarely have to worry about using the command-line for programming (though it is there), but when I do have to worry about it (for example -- in Visual C++ 6.0, some compiler and linker options weren't available directly from the UI, one would have to specify them as command-line options to the compiler/linker), I could. Knowing how to use command-lines also allows you to set up nice pre/post build scripts in Visual Studio that can really simplify things (copying DLLs to a shared location after being built, or whatever).
Though I'm generally against the silly minimalist approach many UNIX zealots take with regards to computer use and programming (for example, those who think anyone who uses an IDE is inferior, or whatever), given the choice I'd always prefer to work with programmers who are at least somewhat comfortable using command-lines. Anyone who has no clue in that area has probably not built a serious application. Even on the classic Mac, someone who has created a large application has probably done some scripting in MPW which is a form of command-line.
Might not have even been an issue (since Microsoft might have seen the light too late) if loud-mouth jerkoffs like Barksdale, Andressen, Ellison and McNealy didn't huff and puff all throughout 1995-1997 about how their new web browser platform was going to destroy Microsoft. I have no sympathy for any of these jackasses.
Please see my other response under this thread. I specifically said "newer model" two-way radios because I'm talking about GMRS, which is what most radio makers, including Motorola, are now pushing in the consumer space for 2-5 mile (supposedly -- ideal conditions and all that) communications.
I know a number of people who use them to transmit up to about 5 miles to coordinate when on skiing trips, etc. None of the people I know who uses them has a license, and most of the have 22 channel systems and don't stick to the lower 14.
Virtually noone actually applies for them, and I'm not aware of anyone getting nabbed for it..
YMMV, don't try this in places where you might end up in a dark hole for years for flaunting such regulations (luckily we're about 2-3 years away from that situation in the US, phew!)
When is the last time the medical industry really cured a disease (ala Polio), as opposed to creating a temporary symptom-reliver?
I think your brain is getting tripped up on "Windows CE" and is thinking CE == PDA, which is not at all the case. PDAs are a very small subset of all consumer electronics.
The .NET CLR alone is more innovative than anything the OSS community has produced in the past 5 years.
Time to wake up and realize that Microsoft of 2003 isn't Microsoft of 1991 and when you put 3 billion dollars per year into R&D it tends to translate into some Really Cool Shit.
You can badmouth Microsoft's business practices all you want, and I'd support you on that issue, but to try to pretend that their recent software isn't a highwater mark in the industry is to be a fool in denial.
BULLSHIT, you fucking liar, bitch-whore.
Why not use the original source, Netscape 7.1?
Works much better for me....
Your thoughtful post makes the +4 mod points I got all the sweeter!
Guess not!
Ever been to Kentucky?
Fuck you, bitch!
I agree completely -- good call.
This post is not a troll or flamebait, anyone who mods it as such will be dick slapped by my huge shlong.
Anyone who mods this post down is probably a fat dorky radio geek that has never kissed a girl.
Thanks, best laugh I had all day.
Yeah that's a real convincing argument to give to a CEO who is worried about how much lost time (== $) there will be due to the switchover, and how much it will cost in retraining.
Newsflash: Not everyone is you. Most people just want their computer to work the way it always has. Changing things on these people is very disruptive.
Also, these people aren't "dumb", necessarily, I've known a few certified geniuses that just weren't "computer people".
The real answer is this guy doesn't really need support. As long as he doesn't add new hardware he won't need to change his systems at all. If the systems don't need to be on the general Internet, and it sounds like they don't, security is likely a non-issue, just keep them firewalled off. So 5, 10 years from now he'll have exactly what he has now, nothing more, nothing less. If that works for him today it will work for him tomorrow.
Doesn't really have any negative impact on me and helps them control spam, so I'm happy with it.
Did Microsoft misdesign AWT? Did Microsoft then go on the complete opposite end of the scale and overdesign Swing to the point where it was feature rich but slow as a dog, making pure Java unusable for serious desktop apps with UI needs of more than one simple list box?
I was paid as a Java programmer for almost 3 years -- all server-side Java. Java is great on the server, but it SUCKS, SUCKS, SUCKS on the desktop, even with Hotspot, which was supposed to make it much better. Good Java performance on the desktop is one of those things that is perpetually "about 6 months away", so please don't bother telling me how much Java 1.5 or x.y is going to fix all these issues, instead point me to REAL, SERIOUS commercial applications using Java on the desktop if you want me to take you seriously. And no, Java IDEs written in Java don't count, I want to see actual apps that end-users might use.