Slashdot Mirror
Video Chat Software Reviewed
Ryan writes "The PowerPage by way of The New York Times has a comparison of Apple's new iChatAV and Microsoft's MSN Messenger 6. My favorite quote, 'Microsoft, true to tradition, has focused on expanding its list of features, while Apple has worked toward elegance and simplicity.'"
Now that the random generator has been foiled. Or does someone know a new random login generator for the NYT?
Like iChat AV doesn't have all kinds of new functions. Like.. AV chat. Elegance, simplicity AND advanced features, thank you.
Adding features does not necessarily increase functionality -- it just makes the manuals thicker.
too bad they did not compared it to gnomemeeting
:)
an open source h323 soft compatible with netmeeting for all *nix, but dunno if it is still with msn6, would be nice to check this
of course MSN product is better... they are already on version 6! iChatAV doesn't even HAVE a version number! silly mac freaks.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
quite simple really
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
You can download them free at messenger.msn.com or apple.com/ichat, respectively, as part of a public beta test - a software company's way of saying, "Sure they're buggy, but what do you want for free?"
I believe I hear the sounds of a pissed off Gnu.
It's great that companies are getting out new things, but how likely is it that they will be used? Many people still have dial-up, and streaming video and dialup don't play well together. As much as I like this, wouldn't it be better to develop better codecs to promote this or work on the last mile issue?
Messenger 6.0 has a puking emoticon.
'nuff said.
Is there even any competition? Does M$N even have video conferencing? Indeed, I doubt that the camera quality is even remotely comparable. Those of us who say the SteveNote saw how awesome the iSight camera was. Is MSN Messenger even going to be remotely comparable?
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
What's Linux got to do with anything? I thought the article was about iChat. Could you please keep you anti-Linux elitism out of this?
sic transit gloria mundi
I don't think this has anything to do with Linux. :-P
Still, who would have thought that an anti-MS quote would come from a site running WebObjects?
Thanks, best laugh I had all day.
Well, one of the great things about apple's product is that it doesn't have the build in crashandburn(); function that the msn software got. At least that's my experience with my usb webcam I got for free hehe.
Plus, exactly how many features can u need on a peice of software that is made for point to point communication?.
that quote implies that Apple lacks usability.
This point, like the one the editor made, is what defines it to me. Do you want to play? Get MSN. Do you want to communicate? Get iChat. There are times and places for both of these activities.As those of you who saw Jobs' keynote Monday will already have guessed, this was a prime requirement for the iSight camera that Apple released -- designed to attach to the various displays Apple has released. Looking at the pictures on the NYT site (yeah, registration, ooh, scary), there's a massive difference in the way that the people using the two apps look -- one that you wouldn't necessarily click to from just reading the text.This is true, as it stands, but misleading. As they point out elsewhere in the text, iChat works as well on any FireWire camera, such as pretty much all modern camcorders, etc. This has more to do with using an established graphics communication protocol over a generic bus like USB than who manufactures the hardware.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Of course it will, in the short term. However, such a cool chat program will merely be an added perk for those people looking to buy an Apple for the first time. The problem is, as you say, that Apple has only ~10% market share. I.e. most people own PC's. While iChat is cool, it's not really worth spending the money to buy a Mac. However, if people are thinking about buying a Mac, would this not sway them towards getting one?
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
Has anyone actually used these types of programs for other than just flashing your "little general" (hint: not Ross Perot) at strangers?
!@#$% whole-grain cereal. When I want fiber, I eat some wicker furniture. - G. Carlin
Seriously, how hard is it do this, and find this?
Do not read this sig.
In typical Slashdot fashion, this is old news. Everyone had the link before the PowerPage... For instance:
MacMinute
MacNN
MacDailyNews
And every other half-baked Mac site. Good article though.
Manuals? Have you actually purchased a Microsoft product in the last ten years? You don't get any manuals. You get a "quick start" booklet and a cyanide capsule and that's it.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
But the video size ranges fron "tiny" to "microscopic", whereas the iChat one can go full screen and I think the native res was 640x480.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
But which one comes with the best auto-airbrushing feature? Many slashdot readers will no doubt need this.
-- the only thing we have to fear is really scary things
maybe something that will work with apples iChat AV?
I don't claim I know more than I know, and if you know you know more than I know, then by all means, let me know.
I recently had the opportunity to try both GnomeMeeting and iChat AV. These remarks are only for audio, though.
GnomeMeeting has an impressive feature list and it's adherence to open standards is naturally very appealing.
However, when comparing it to beta iChat the differences were planet-sized. Apple has created a wonderful UI; I could concentrate on communication, not on the software itself.
It is true that GnomeMeeting allows you to use different codecs and is slightly more hacker-friendly. However, when I want to talk to someone, I usually don't feel like configuring loads of stuff. In some cases ease of use simply blows features away, and human communication is one of them.
(Not to mention the sound quality of the iChat audio chat. Wow.)
[ Antti Rasinen ]
I hate to meta-mod, but whoever modded this as 0, Troll has no sense of humor. +1 Funny for the sarcasm.
You are dumb. You think I didn't notice that YOU tried to fake a quote??
nobody said a thing about linux! you just made it look like someone did.
STOP TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO STOP HATING LINUX ELITISM. IT DOES NOT WORK YOU ELITIST DECEIPTICON FAGGOT.
The audio uses the compression technology out of CDMA. Pretty neat.
You've obviously never had an atricle published because they DO edit them. Besides, that quote is FROM the article, so call the NYT if you have an issue with it. Also, that would me Mac elitism, Apple is about as Linux friendly as MS is, look at the Linux version of Quicktime if you don't believe me ... wait ... there is no Linux version of Quicktime.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
It's good to see Apple and Microsoft are now providing it with some timely competetion.
Another thing that should be noted is iChatAV requires at least a 600mhz machine in order to send video. While GnomeMeeting and others run on much less powerful hardware.
What I want to know is, why aren't iChat AV, YahooChat, MSN 6 AV, et al compatible with each other?
What makes them any fucking different than say standard HTTP? Imagine if every company branched out and begain their own implementation of HTTP protocol and W3C never existed. Would we even see any innovation on the internet? I doubt it.
Why is AV chat any different? There should be an ISO to oversee every potential promising trend, otherwise we'll all screwed in the future, forced to use 20 billion clients to keep in touch with friends. ARPANET should take back the internet and tell all these corporations to fuck off with their standards.
yeah, and that's why everybody loves icq, because it's wonderful and non-bloated features. :o)
Right:
:
:
./configure --prefix=/usr
./configure --prefix=/usr
./configure script, it supports several parameters:
/usr
/opt, default is /usr/include/ptlib)
./configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc
/how/--to compile programs and configure things from the command-line.
/all/ like ./make and ./configure, dude. Sometimes, people just want shit to work.
"Installation of Gnomemeeting is easy once you have the right version for your specific distribution of Linux! Here at PowerPage, we followed the simple directions:
4. Software installation
4.1. Which libraries do I need to run it?
You will need
* the standard Gnome libraries (they are now optional in recent GnomeMeeting versions, but we recommend using them to have the full-featured GnomeMeeting).
* the OpenH323 and the PWlib libraries (See download section of this website).
* the OpenLDAP library (Included in your distribution)
* the SDL library (Included in your distribution). Having SDL is optional, but if you compile GnomeMeeting without SDL, the fullscreen feature will be unavailable.
* the Quicknet telephony development files (Provided with your kernel). Having those files is optional, but if you compile GnomeMeeting without Quicknet support, it will be impossible to use Quicknet hardware during calls.
4.2. How can I compile GnomeMeeting?
Simply use the binaries from your distribution, the ones in the downloads section, or compile that way:
As root, follow the steps
4.2.1. Compile PWlib
You have to compile PWlib that way:
$
$ make optshared
$ make install
If you want to compile Firewire support into PWlib, you have to pass either the --enable-firewiredc or --enable-firewireavc to the configure script. Notice that executing the configure script will generate a ptbuildopts.h file that will be placed in the include/ subdirectory of the pwlib sources. If you want to benefit from the callto URLs, P_LDAP must be defined and set to 1 in that file. Similarly, P_HAS_IPV6 must be defined and set to 1 if you want to be able to use IPv6 with GnomeMeeting.
4.2.2. Compile OpenH323
You have to compile OpenH323 that way:
$
$ make optshared
$ make install
If you have any problem, please have a look at openh323 FAQ. You can also mail the GnomeMeeting mailing list.
4.2.3. Compile Gnomemeeting
Download it in the download section of the GnomeMeeting websit.
run the
--prefix=/usr to install it in
--with-ptlib-includes= specifies the location of PTlib headers (for example,/opt/pwlib/include/ptlib if you extracted PWlib in
--with-openh323-includes= specifies the location of OpenH323 headers
If OpenH323 and PWlib are correctly installed (both the libraries and the headers), we suggest you to compile GnomeMeeting that way:
$
$ make
$ make install
We at the PowerPage were disappointed to see the installation instructions for iChat and MSN Messenger 6:
1. Download iChat if you're using OS X; download MSN Messenger 6 if you're using Windows.
2. Double-click the file you downloaded and click the 'install' button to begin the installation.
3. Double-click the program's icon to run it and sign on."
Give me a break. If they would have compared Gnomemeeting, it would have been trounced. Why? Because this wasn't an article geared toward people who like--or even know
There goes another Slashdotter who just doesn't understand which software is geared toward which people. We don't
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
do you? and don't say gnomemeeting :P
maybe something that will work with apples iChat AV?
iChat AV is proprietary and just came out, why would you expect anything other than other iChat AV clients to work with it?
maybe something that will work with apples iChat AV?
To loosely quote Jobs at the WWDC Keynote: "Right now, iChat AV is Mac only, but we expect to work toward interoperability as our competitors copy it."
I'd expect AIM to work with it first due to Apple's relationship with AOL, with YIM coming after that.
~Philly
In some cases ease of use simply blows features away, and human communication is one of them.
Both Gnome Meeting and Yahoo Instant Messanger allow you to talk with more than one person at once. iChat AV doesn't.
I'd say that's a very key part of "human communication". My wife uses Yahoo IM video conferencing to talk with her mom (in one state) and her father (stationed in another country) at the same time.. she couldn't do this with iChat AV.
"Apple, on the other hand, would sooner die than release anything that could be described as "stuttering" or "microscopic." In iChat AV, video is as crisp, clear, bright and smooth as television (640 by 480 pixels), in a window as small as a Triscuit or as big as your screen. Unless you begin to type, the typed-chat window isn't even visible during a video or audio call. Beware, however: Apple offers this top-tier experience only if you have top-tier gear. Video calls require high-speed Internet connections at both ends; dial-up fans need not apply. Apple says that audio calls work over dial-up connections, but mine didn't work without a broadband hookup on at least one end. And iChat AV turns up its nose at those U.S.B. golf-ball Webcams. It requires a video camera with FireWire (a very fast connector also found on every Macintosh). For this purpose, you can use an ordinary digital camcorder - a clever money-saving twist - as long as your Mac has at least a G4 chip inside. You can use a golf-ball Webcam that connects via FireWire instead of U.S.B. Or you can use iSight, the new $150 camera-microphone appliance that Apple unveiled Monday as an optional partner for iChat AV."
I like my 2 cheap ass novelty webcams, dammit!
Not everyone has the money to buy some bad ass digital camcorder!
Such quality is really only needed in a corporate setting. For which lots of applications already exist and people wouldn't be using MSN or iChat.
Help! I've been attacked by moderators for speaking truth!
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
'Microsoft, true to tradition, has focused on expanding its list of features, while Apple has worked toward elegance and simplicity.
Elegantly simple? Or elegant for simpletons? I'll take "expanded list of features" for $1000, Alex.
One of the features of Microsoft's offering is "works with almost any old Webcam". Apple's "requires a video camera with FireWire"
I like things that work. From the article it appears they both work equally well so the deciding factor will have to be...features.
Funny all I had to do was follow these three steps.
1. apt-get install gnomemeeting
2. clicky the pretty gnomemeeting icon
3. there is no step 3. there is no step 3!
"My favorite quote, 'Microsoft, true to tradition, has focused on expanding its list of features, while Apple has worked toward elegance and simplicity.'""
Sounds like the KDE vs GNOME battle projected into commercial space.
I don't claim I know more than I know, and if you know you know more than I know, then by all means, let me know.
I was amazed..I expected to wait months.
The camera is absolutely amazing. About the size of a long C cell, the quality blows away any USB cam I've ever seen, and looks better than my camcorder as well. The whole iChat/iSight experience is, as Apple promised, beyond simple. Download iChat AV (had it already) plug in the camera, and off you go...well at least to the other two people I know who have iChat AV installed.
Well there had to be a caveat, eh? Forget about it if you have a slow Mac. I first hooked it to a dual 500mhz G4, and with bandwidth limits off, the thing bogged down my machine like nothing I had ever seen. I had to do a pushbutton restart twice.
Then I tried it on my daughter's 1ghz 17" iMac. Perfect. Flawless. I was having chats with people at 600kbps and it was like television on the other side, or so I was told.
Back to the dual 500, but with bandwidth limited to 200kbps. Now it works fine, but the moral here is that Apple is not telling all about processor requirements. To be honest, anything less than an 800mhz G4 is going to choke without the bandwidth limiter.
Yeah other cams are cheaper and there aren't many people to communicate with yet. But the difference between this type of chat and generic AIM is, forgive the cliche, paradigm changing.
I ordered two more iSight's today.
"The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive.....death. I'll eat the pie."
Give me a break. If they would have compared Gnomemeeting, it would have been trounced. Why? Because this wasn't an article geared toward people who like--or even know
Shut up troll. Obviously you can't read:
How can I compile GnomeMeeting?
Simply use the binaries from your distribution
Not everyone has apt-get installed. If they do, you provide a two-sentence tutorial on how to use it and why you're going into a fucking command-line in the first place.
/type at a command-line prompt./
If not, you have to tell them how to install apt-get to use your oh-so-simple instructions.
Bottom line: This article was targeted toward people who couldn't give a rat's ass about what to
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
you have quite an imagination little one. You think this is going to change people's opinions of little linux self proclaimed geeks like yer self? print it up and shove it into your gaping shithole
ah, well, unfortunately, no. It seems they invented their own protocol.. it's definately not h323.
why? that's one of the very first things you'll notice if you ever use a mac. it's elegant and simple. i almost never complain about the features of mac apps even they they are simple to use. this, is because of elegant design. you can't achieve a simple and feature rich piece of software without it.
- tristan
Go tell that to Mom and Pop over at the Compaq they bought from Wal-Mart.
They don't want to care about what codecs to use, what Linux distro they're running, or anything else.
Here's something to think about: I went to the GnomeMeeting site and the most obvious, biggest thing I found in the FAQ about installation was a massive list of commands to type to build and configure it. Go to Apple or MS's sites, and you see nothing of the sort.
This article wasn't targeted toward the vast, vast majority of MSNMessenger and iChat users.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
Go to Apple or MS's sites, and you see nothing of the sort.
Might be due to the general lack of source code for Apple and MS products.
GnomeMeeting comes with any distro that includes Gnome2.. that includes SuSE and Redhat. You don't have to do anything special to install or use it.
Unless someone beat me to it:
.Mac or AOL Instant Messenger account. The MSN-Hotmail and .Mac-AIM networks are still, alas, mutually incompatible.)
STATE OF THE ART
Video Chat Software Reviewed
By DAVID POGUE
NSTANT messaging certainly has its charms. You and a conversation partner on the Internet type back and forth in a narrow window, your quips scrolling up the screen like a hastily written script. The fact that you can't see or hear the other person is either the best feature or the worst, depending on how self-conscious you are and how your hair looks.
Better start combing. Last week both Microsoft and Apple incorporated audio and video into their popular chat programs, now called MSN Messenger 6 and iChat AV. You can download them free at messenger.msn.com or apple.com/ichat, respectively, as part of a public beta test - a software company's way of saying, "Sure they're buggy, but what do you want for free?"
Even in their preliminary incarnations, these programs illustrate two important points. First, the addition of voice and video changes the experience so profoundly, it's not really chat any more. Second, Apple and Microsoft may as well have come from different planets.
For example, Microsoft, true to tradition, has focused on expanding its list of features, while Apple has worked toward elegance and simplicity. Messenger is a cacophony of brightly colored buttons, panels, blinking advertisements and, in the new version, animated (and even homemade) smileys; iChat AV maintains the clean lines and brushed-metal "surfaces" of its text-only predecessors. The new features of Messenger 6 include custom window backgrounds and interactive games like checkers; iChat AV is dedicated solely to communication. Messenger 6, in its ultimate form, will be free; iChat AV will cost $30 (but will be free with Apple's next operating-system release, Mac OS X 10.3, code-named Panther, due by year's end).
MSN Messenger works with almost any old Webcam, like one of those $60 golf-ball cameras that you perch on your monitor and plug into your PC with a U.S.B. cable. (You also need a free MSN.com or Hotmail account; iChat AV requires a free
If both conversation partners have high-speed Internet connections or are on the same office network, Messenger's video looks very good. You have only three size choices for the video - small, smaller or microscopic - but it's bona fide video.
If one of you works in a corporate office, however, and therefore sits behind a firewall (a layer of hacker-proof hardware or software), much less data wriggles through. What you see isn't so much video as a series of stuttering still images, sent once or twice a second, like someone illuminated by a strobe light in a dance club.
Unfortunately, you get the same effect if one or both of you connects to the Internet using a dial-up modem. Phone lines just aren't fat enough to transmit quality video, so all MSN Messenger can do is fake it. Maybe that's why Messenger's typed chat area remains open even during voice or video calls, just in case.
Apple, on the other hand, would sooner die than release anything that could be described as "stuttering" or "microscopic." In iChat AV, video is as crisp, clear, bright and smooth as television (640 by 480 pixels), in a window as small as a Triscuit or as big as your screen. Unless you begin to type, the typed-chat window isn't even visible during a video or audio call.
Beware, however: Apple offers this top-tier experience only if you have top-tier gear. Video calls require high-speed Internet connections at both ends; dial-up fans need not apply. Apple says that audio calls work over dial-up connections, but mine didn't work without a broadband hookup on at least one end.
And iChat AV turns up its nose at those U.S.B. golf-ball Webcams. It requires a video camera with FireWire (a very fast connector also found on every Macintosh).
For this purpose, you can use an ordinary digital
Really?
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
Lack of source code my ass. iChat might not be open-source, but the entire core of the OS is.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
i already hear one person describe it as being snappier®
i sware!
Number of years I've owned a camera I could use for videoconferencing: three years
Number of times I've actually used it for videoconferencing: 0. Nada. Zilch.
Could someone please explain to me why I would want to videoconference when I could just use GAIM and not rape my internet connection?
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
You don't get it do you?? When you go to burger king, do you want to flip your hams on the grill? Do you want to apply the works, and wrap it up in foil and place it in a bag before you jump through the drive through window?
Most people HATE linux's time wasting procedures to install software --- OOOH WOW SOURCE CODE. I bet you don't even look at 99% of the source code you download, Muchless find anything important that you say you can find out of the millions of lines of code you get as a whole system.
You don't even have a good excuse to use linux anymore except for the fact that its free, and that your also a bum who can't dish out $200 for a damn good workstation. It also implies that you want to run a server off a DSL or cable modem because anyone who has brains to start a business CAN GET THE MONEY to pay for windows.
If you wanna try to compare total cost of ownership when you have to read those lengthy installation documents, tweak code if nessecary and manually edit configuration code and do all that unessecary bullshit, up against me or any knowledgable MCSE clicking "setup.exe" and clicking next through a simple to use wizard and have whatever it is running in a matter of seconds, then try to come up with a good excuse to use linux.
funny, i went there and clicked the first link I sawh owto. html
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/tools/cvs/
look! a long list of commands!
they didn't even tell you how to get to a shell!
apple sucks!
'Microsoft, true to tradition, has focused on expanding its list of features, while Apple has worked toward elegance and simplicity.'
Great, so Microsoft has expanded upon the functionality of their product and Apple has produced more Moronware under the guise of "keeping shit simple." Motherfucking yay.
"Don't know your system from your ass, friend? Allow us to help transform your system INTO your ass, then."
This isn't to say that Microsoft's product is necessarily better, of course, but let's not behave like stupid fucking retards and pretend that Apple is any less a multinational corporation intent upon wiping its ass with our money than M$ is.
If you'd bother to understand that site at all, you'd realize that the Web site for the SOURCE CODE is intended for people who are COMFORTABLE COMPILING SOURCE CODE. Raw Darwin isn't for Mom and Pop User.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
How else would you express to your long-distance correspondant that you're using a Windows-based system?
here is a picture of an ichat av session, this was before i got the isight (today) it worked fine with my cannon dv cam:
http://www.flashenabled.com/nimages/ichatbg.jpg
it works great, full screen and super-simple. msn 6 and ichat both do im, but msn is on version 6 with lots of features that many people need, or want while apple is starting out for the most part and many people don't need app sharing, white board, etc...it's pretty exciting. i use a mac and a pc so i've got the best of both.
cheers,
pt
Is gnomemeeting not in Red Carpet? (I do not know, I've never used gnomemeeting)
If a user doesn't know how to install a program at all, they might have a problem using a computer in general, let alone the latest versions of the Mac and Windows software.
While I agree that compiling a program and all its dependant libraries is too much hassle for most basic users (as well as many power users, I consider myself in that category and I refuse to install programs that require compilation unless its one I really want or need), installing and using Red Carpet is even easier than installing programs in windows (I don't even have to go find the program to install it).
I imagine the reason that gnomemeeting wasn't included is because a lot of people use/will use the windows and Mac program, a lot more than will use gnomemeeting. At least at the moment.
Apple doesn't have a Linux version of Quicktime.
Microsoft calls Linux "a cancer" and actively tries to prevent it from existing.
Yet you say...
Apple is about as Linux friendly as MS is
???
Mossberg's and Pouge's columns are my Wednesday night reading.
Bob
fsck -u
Do either of them have an option for SSL, or any encryption at all (other than that that trys to make the protocole obscure as posiable)
Compare apples to apples, dumbass. If you download the program from the same place you got your OS (as Apple or Windows users do), you'd get a ready-to-run binary. People who 'just want shit to work' don't download the source code; they use the handy desktop icon for Click n' Run or what have you, wait 10 minutes while it downloads, and go.
The reason why I like to buy SuSE Linux is because they KNOW that nothing, not even the best electronic documentation, can beat a well written book. Microsoft just can't figure this out. I found my first expierence with Windows XP even more painful than my first encounter with Linux (and let me tell you, since my video card was incompatible, it was REALLY PAINFUL), as most of the features are cryptic and essentially undocumented. It took me almost a minute just to find the control panel and get it converted into a less weird format.
Apple is about as Linux friendly as MS is, look at the Linux version of Quicktime if you don't believe me ... wait ... there is no Linux version of Quicktime.
I'm sure if're willing to pony up and pay for the licencing fees for the video codecs that Apple does not own, they'd be happy to make a linux version of Quicktime. Now I'm not saying Apple could not be more interoperable with Linux, and with the interoperability of ichat in particular, but given their reasonable standards support, and the amount of code they have contributed back to open source; I don't think they can be characterized in the same catagory as Microsoft.
Elegance of interface & user experience are markedly different than technical elegance. That said, Panther and the G5 may get Apple back in the game.
do people still use this.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Why can't microsmurf do something that looks good and doesn't eat megabytes? The msn look-n-feel is kind of childish, I can't take anything that I find on that site serious. And opening my eyes, looking at windows, I'm almost ready to cry.
And what's more annoying than the fact that windows doesn't have Ctrl-K?
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's Law
hey yeha i'm watching this right now!
/.?????? do you work for TCM???
awesome stuff.
but why is this on
That's irrelevent. Apple and MS don't tell you how to compile iChat/MSN because you can't. We're not talking about kernels here, we're talking about chat programs. There is no source available for iChat and MSN Messenger, therefore a comparison of their compiling process with gnomemeeting's process is pointless. With any of the programs, you can use the binaries, and you should unless you have a specific need not met by them.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
I know the iSight comes with brackets for Apple products, like the laptops, the iMac, and the LCD displays. Are any of those brackets adjustable or do they look like they would work on third-party stuff? I've got a ViewSonic LCD that I'd like to put the camera on.
~Philly
My girlfriend went on and on about how she wanted an iSight. Last night I broke down and went with her to pick one up. It's a pretty sweet device. On our LAN here, we have no problems doing 2mbps video. Chatting with a couple friends, we've been able to do up to 160kbps. Still, not bad.
;-)
Earlier, I took my older Pismo PowerBook into the back yard and had an audio chat with her, while getting video from the iSight attached to her PowerMac. 700-800kbps there. Not bad at all. My audio stream going to here was 30kbps.
All in all, it's a sweet device. I need to make more Mac friends. It's only a matter of time before there's an iChat AV videochat directory*.
*All original ideas are the property of me. Boo yeah, grandma. I thought of it first, and so on...
From the article it appears they both work equally well so the deciding factor will have to be...features.
No, the deciding factor will have to be...video quality.
Here's what Pogue's article says about the Microsoft product:
If both conversation partners have high-speed Internet connections or are on the same office network, Messenger's video looks very good. You have only three size choices for the video - small, smaller or microscopic - but it's bona fide video. [Also, Pogue goes onto say that the MS product gets bogged down if you're connecting through a router]
And here's what Pogue's article says about Apple's product:
Apple, on the other hand, would sooner die than release anything that could be described as "stuttering" or "microscopic." In iChat AV, video is as crisp, clear, bright and smooth as television (640 by 480 pixels), in a window as small as a Triscuit or as big as your screen.
As you can see, video quality for the Apple product is incomparably better. The whole point of this video chat stuff is great quality video, and it appears that Apple is the only one offering high quality video at the moment. Unless you're content to look at triscuitsI'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
About a month ago I was telling a friend that digital cameras in the future would just be a lens you hold in your hand and look in the back of. Give it a squeeze and it will take the picture (automatically detecting it's rotational orientation of course). Then set it down next to your computer and the pictures are beamed by $FAST_WIRELESS.
;-)
Looks like GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE!!!!
During the keynote, Jobs said iChat was built on existing standards. He didn't mention which ones. I've seen dozens of "standards-based" video conferencing applications. Very few of them interoperate well.
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
GnomeMeeting comes with any distro that includes Gnome2.. that includes SuSE and Redhat. You don't have to do anything special to install or use it.
Except pray there are no security vulnerabilities and you have to upgrade or re-install it.
Of course Apple is better. They only took one version to get it right, while Microsoft took 6.
You love to spread fud don't you? hi2u microsoft employee!
I used to fool around with iChat during the release of Jaguar. Didn't use it that much because most of my friends didn't have AIM-accounts. But it's changing now... AOL/ICQ have recently merged their networks, so now i can use iChat to chat with my ICQ friends (only of they use the latest ICQ-lite though).
:(
And I think Steve Jobs described Video-conferencing pretty accurately. It's one of those features that you go "I will never use this. It's cool. But I will never use this." and then after some use you will go "Why did I say that? THIS IS GREAT!".
You know what? Steve Jobs was completely right! iChat is now my favorite chatting application because of it's sleek interface, ease of use and audio/video capabilities. I just plugged in my webcamera and iChat AV booted up automatically and configured itself! How is that for plug and play, Microsoft? No drivers, no nothing. It simply worked. Set up in less than ten seconds. I am stumped!
"Way to go Apple!" is what I say! This will completely change how I communicate with my father that reside in the US. We've emailed and called back and forth for six years now, but now it looks like we're taking a step further to the future!
But what really need to happen is interconnect-ability between all apps though
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
"Messenger 6, in its ultimate form, will be free; iChat AV will cost $30 (but will be free with Apple's next operating-system release, Mac OS X 10.3, code-named Panther, due by year's end).".
Vote for Pedro
"For Video... G5, G4 or G3 procesor [sic] at 600MHz or faster" In other words, any G5 or G4, but a G3 needs to be at least 600MHz. Specs at: http://www.apple.com/ichat/download/
I have had some terrible experiences trying to get a video conference going with Messenger and NAT runnining on my home router and the MS tech plain out said that Messenger video won't pass through a NAT router. Will I have to connect my computer directly to the Cable modem and risk it?
Hello M$ AstroTurfer anybody there? Yo Hoo! rpm too tough for you... tried MDK urpmi? The script will DL and install all dependencies (in the correct order too! not something to discount eh? Service Pack Chimp!) Ok, ok... won't feed the Troll anymore...
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
This is Slashdot. Moderators make the truth.
iChat AV uses SIP (RFC 2543).
Just because you can draw an anti-Microsoft connotation, that's your problem as the reader.
We all know that Gnome is hopelessly behind KDE. I can't wait for KMeeting to come out.
"Simply use the binaries from your distribution, the ones in the downloads section"
I wouldn't go farther than that - that will "just work" for the supported distributions. With Debian, Mandrake, Redhat, Slackware, and SuSE binaries available, what major distributions are left out?
You're comparing a hardware manufacturer to a software maker? Remember that Microsoft dosn't make computers like Apple does. They make software, and in my opinion, they can't even do that right.
Wow, and you even managed to spell that wrong.
Chatting with a couple friends, we've been able to do up to 160kbps.
Do you mean up to 160 kbps, as in that's the highest bandwidth you've been able to use, or down to 160 kbps, as in anything less isn't usable?
(Says the guy who is on 128 kbps DSL and wondering if an iSight would be a complete waste of money.)
When he said that, I got the full impression he was answering the questions he knew would come from places like slashdot, if it will be "proprietary". Wake up, there are 50 000 "established standards", so choice in this regard means nothing towards what he said. They may not be perfect but they (Apple) do want to play along with others. Everything they have done the last years shows that. So i wouldn't worry too much. Once it goes 1.0 it should be well documented for 3rd-party developers, and if the _standard_ they choose should happen to not work well under linux, i will be disappointed, but I won't blame them. Who the hell do you think they are, GNU ?
t is true that GnomeMeeting allows you to use different codecs and is slightly more hacker-friendly. However, when I want to talk to someone, I usually don't feel like configuring loads of stuff. In some cases ease of use simply blows features away, and human communication is one of them.
Exactly. when I call someone on the phone, I don't want to be selecting different codecs or which carrier I need to use to get a hold of someone, I just dial their phone number. This is where a lot of apple's software really shines - it just works. Fair enough, it might be fun to change codecs and the sort to get a better working program for my particular setup, but this is open source's domain.
As a company providing support for their product, apple can't afford to be supporting multiple codecs and the like. I'm sure all the people reading this that work in telephone support know what I'm talking about!
If you want to be an l33t h4x0r, then use gnome meeting. If you just want to talk to a friend over the net, use iChat AV.
Footnote: I haven't said much about MSN 6.0 because I haven't used it, not because of my hatred of all things microsoft.
In Soviet Russia, the monkey spanks you!
Those who go and buy Macs because they are easier to use (compared to Linux) and do not crash (compared to other operating systems(OS)) are rejects of the Slashdot community. True slashdot geeks don't go and buy a computer/OS because it is easy to use. They buy a computer because it is tweakable. Does the Slashdot community just go and buy preinstalled Linux systems? No, they play with the kernel(latest/funky patches), do all sort of things to the hardware, put Slackware(IMO) in that thing, force the bitch to spit up chewbacca . Don't you find it boring to just put a CD and let the installer tell you what you should do next? Boring. We're geeks; We try to understand why things go wrong or do not.
Your girlfriend begged for an iSight and you went with her to get it?
Dude, you're so dumped.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
The only problem I have with the iSight camera is that it looks like a roll of TP perched on the screen...this is atypical, given Apple's prediliction for aesthetics.
I prefer the idea of iChat AV over MSN Messenger 6, but I like Apple's simplicity in UI design in general, which is why I have a Mac. But the MS chat will no doubt be good enough for most of the people out there (most of whom have no idea that MacOSX even exists, much less that there is something like iCHat AV etc) and will obviously work with more , and cheaper, hardware. I think the majority of PC users will be happy enough with the quality provided by MS Chat, and it will server to bind PC users even more into the MSN/Microsoft fold.
I personally think that Apple made a mistake by limiting iChat users to AIM/ICQ/.Mac but I presume that Yahoo had some legal barriers that made it unwise to enter. I think that OSX hackers will probably hack this thing eventually that it will accept other hardware Cams, such as USB types, as they seem to be quite a resourceful bunch, but the lack of AIM/MS IM/Yahoo compatibility is something that will continue to hinder decent Audio/Video Chatting over the internet.
Can IChat speak to MSN or vice versa ?
Apart from that i find instant messages much more practical and bandwidth savvy, especially when talking with multiple people from an hotel room that has only dialup.
Let's talk about my resume, shall we? I'm looking for work, sending out resumes written on my iBook in Word X. Just to make sure, I email it to a friend with Win98/Office 98. Awesome, perfect. So I've sent out probably 15 or so resumes. Today I get a notice back -- "could you please resend, the Word document won't open."
This has happened to me before. Is there anything more goddammed embarassing than applying for tech jobs and having your @%^#$ Word attachment fail? God knows how many people have been able to read it and how many haven't. So I had to resend it to the friend who could view it fine, re-save it in Windows (even though it never even complained about the slightest incompatability or anything, just opened like a native Windows Word document). Then I sent along a copy of my resume in HTML on the resend.
How is Microsoft such a hideously worthless software company? Can't they do ANYTHING right? I've had it up to here with this crap. And what pisses me off is that stuff like this is what makes people rethink buying an Apple -- how about rethinking buying a POS $400 software suite with 5,000,000,000 features, 5 of which you actually use, 2 of which actually work?
*sigh*
Maybe I'll get a job someday. Maybe.
thanks for letting me rant.
And you know it's proprietary and won't work with anything else because...??
/ 20 575/ artic le.php/2226921
Seriously, according to what developers have been told on the floor of WWDV, what Apple said during the keynote, and what users are reporting iChat AV is standards based and may use a limited implementation of SIP. Apple has also stated that interoperability is a goal of iChat AV. Remember, it is still beta software and interoperability may not have been ready for release.
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/cs_msg
http://www.instantmessagingplanet.com/public
Try getting a clue before spreading the FUD.
Evolution isn't a progression to ever greater and greater differentiation
but...is first an ascent to a higher point, and after having reached this
point is then a descent to more and more simple forms. (Rudolf Steiner)
Perfection (in design) is achieved not when
there is nothing more to add, but rather when there
is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)
Everything should be made as simple as possible,
but no simpler. (Albert Einstein)
cheers!
Well, I wouldn't say Debian is the most user-friendly Linux distro, but it made installing gnomemeeting a hell of a lot easier than anything else (including windows, IMO):
1. Open a terminal
2. apt-get install gnomemeeting
3. gnomemeeting &
Done.
I'm not aware of all the gui frontends for apt, but if someone would make a really simple Gnome one (HIG compliant, of course), apt-based distros (even apt4rpm) would make installing software a lot less intimidating to Joe Sixpack.
Of course, that's just my opinion, and I sure as hell can't code it.
Just my two cents.
"But the cars are all flashing me, bright lights are passing me, I feel life passing me by" - Stiff Little Fingers
Yahoo Chat has had video feature for years. CuSeeMe been out longer then that. This is new?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
That's dumb for the same reason no one talks on two phones at once. Ever call someone and have them say 'hang on, lemme pick up the other phone, it's my /fill in the blank/"? No, 'cause it's rude and you can't seamlessly carry on more than one conversation at a time. Could iChat have allowed multiple streams? Probably. Would anyone (other than, it seems, your mother) video conference with more than one person at a time? No. The only time I could see that being useful is something impersonal like a lecture. My "human communication" is personal.
This "Service Pack chimp" runs Mac OS X and uses Fink and X11 on a regular basis.
You were saying? Asshat ACs.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
yes, explain how to install gnome-apt
up against me or any knowledgable MCSE
So your an MCSE huh? Shows too, if you can't tell the diffrence between a binary and source code.
If you'd bother to understand anything people have been telling you, you would have realized by now that, get this, the Gnomemeeting source code is intended for.....people who are comfortable compiling source code! Amazing! Gnomemeeting already comes with most Linux distros. Thats right, when you install the OS, Gnomemeeting is ALREADY THERE!!! Wow! And if its not, they have binaries available for download, so you don't have to do any compiling!
ROFL you have a pt. Mod this guy uP!
On my cable modem (1.5mbps down/384kbps up) I was able to get 160kbps out to my friend in Los Angeles. Another friend on the other side of the state (Washington) only managed to get about 130kbps.
Now, realize, that's the bandwidth that was leaving my Mac. I still had another 160kbps or so entering it so I could see my friend.
The video quality was surprisingly good, though.
You have a girlfriend and you're still posting to /. on a Friday night?
I sure hope that either you're in California, where it was only 5:35 (not 8:35, like around here) when you posted that...or your girlfriend is in Mexico on the same archaeological dig mine is working on.
I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
But... that's exactly what it is!
Have you ever opened a G4 box? It's... beautiful.
....and how is it that you supose that iChat is run? OMFG! couldn't be software could it?!
holy fuck me, stop the presses!!!
you stupid cunt-link, go fuck off and die....
ps, eat a dick.
All in all, it's a sweet device. I need to make more Mac friends. It's only a matter of time before there's an iChat AV videochat directory*.
Didn't take too long, did it? http://www.myisight.com/
trillian works with yahoo and msn in addition to all those (save .mac afaik) by default
Hey - he's no troll. He's got a legit complaint.
.make - OS X is spoiling me badly...and I'm liking it.
Frankly, I'm moving away from the old ways of
You're so thrilled to have a girlfriend that you wanted to let the whole world know, huh?
What's the news here? That only 8 years later Apple finally put video conferencing into their OS? !?!?!?!
Video Conferencing has been BUILT into Windows since 1995 (or was it Windows For Workgroups 3.1?) It was a friggen long time ago that Microsoft made Netmeeting which had and still has
1) Text Chat
2) Audio Chat
3) Video Chat
4) Shared Whiteboard
5) Shared Apps over the net.
and under XP
6) Shared Desktop.
"That's dumb for the same reason no one talks on two phones at once."
**rolls eyes**
Conference call, three-way-calling, call-waiting.
Where have you been?
Apple has a Knowledge Base article about which ports need to be opened on a firewall, but it doesn't say anything about it not working if you're using NAT.
I'm using NAT on my home LAN, and everything I map to my OS X box works just like it's sitting on an external IP. I really don't see a technical reason why mapping the inbound ports for iChat wouldn't work-- perhaps Microsoft crippled the free Messenger's capability to do that so companies (more likely to use NAT than Joe Sixpack with his cheap WinPC and cable modem) will have to buy some "pro" version if they want to do videoconferencing? Who knows?
Nah, she was at work, and I was too tired to go out and do anything.
You are a child molestor. The circle is complete now. Your molesting dad passed on the desire to molest little boys.
You will be punished for molesting children. I promise. You will be. You will be.
640x480x32 appears to be 7372800 bits a second. This is considerably more data than one can reliably pass through usb1.1, despite its theoretical bandwidth of 11Mbps.
Those usb camera that do 640x480 are managing this by doing primitive hardware compression in the camera before stuffing it down the usb line. But of course they're cheap, so they're not doing good enough compression that you want to just send it over the net raw, you need to compress it again in software. At which point you're stacking lossy codecs, and you get crappier video.
Firewire camera have the bandwidth available (not only through sheer speed, but through isosynchronous transfers, which usb2 still lacks) to just send untouched 640x480x32, and your software has a clean shot at it.
I just have to type "emerge gnomemeeting". Sometimes, people just want shit to work. Right on, that's why I use Gentoo. People also don't want to have to worry about keeping software up to date, another plus point over Windows. From what I remember, installing software in Mandrake was point and click, no harder than Windows. I personally would have been very interested to have seen how Gnomemeeting compared.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France