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Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum
Adam Wern writes "Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation, today announced the establishment of the CE Linux Forum. CELF will discuss and formalize requirements for extensions to Linux to meet the needs of CE products such as audio/visual products and cellular phones, etc. CELF will publish such requirements and will accept and evaluate open source solutions that support to meet the published requirements. CELF will also promote broad usage of Linux for CE products. IBM, an industry leader in Linux solutions and supporter of open standards ecosystems, is pursuing membership and plans to be an active participant in the CELF."
So punny it hurts :-)
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
It's CRLF, not CELF.
Oh wait.....
SCO announced its intention to sue Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation for even thinking about using Linux.
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
...and said "So long, WinCE. Bwah ha ha ha ha."
Since most CE apps (IE mobile phones) are coded with J2ME, now-a-days, simply adding J2ME into this new Linux extension would mean easy portability of already existing applications.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
"CELF" is easier to pronounce than "CEGnu/LF"...
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Electronic giants? They're going to enslave us all! Run, run everybody!
Oh, not real giants? Oh OK. Nevermind.
Twelve fingers or one, its how you play. ~Gattaca (Vincent)
I like this CE Linux idea. Personally, I'm still waiting for a new alternative to the venerable RS-232. USB can't do it since it requires a computer, and Firewire is too expensive still. And yeah, there's all manner of proprietary connections out there, but you have to have a home theater that's made up entirely of one brand (and that really sucks).
Having a Linux CE (not to be confused with Windows CE =) to work with consumer electronics might be a good idea. So that if my DVD player runs Linux, my TIVO runs Linux, and my TV set runs Linux, I can automate recordings, get them to turn each other on, and that kinda stuff.
Since Linux is (relatively) free, it shouldn't take it forever to "trickle-down" into consumer-grade stuff. With a little luck, RS-232 device control will go the way of the dodo (/me kicks his old n busted Sony VTR).
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
i could be wrong, of course, but looking at the website seems to indicate to me they're talking about Consumer Electronics, not windows CE.
does sony make any windows CE devices? i don't think they do.
in any case, this doesn't mean that microsoft could lawyer 'em to death over the name.
stored on computers from birth to the grave
I'm thinking that it should be the "CR" Linux Forum...
CR/LF.
...until ripping off MS product names was pioneered by Lindows.
Still I'm all for it, especially if it ends up with things like improved Real Time OS code being pushed back into the GPL arena and made available for desktop uses.
Beep beep.
They are pushing Linux, but use Solaris for the site. huuuummmmm.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Not another mobile operating system!! Seeing as everything with an OS already has one, what's the point of finding another solution to an already solved problem?
Why not use something that already exists?
...that they're using FrontPage to make a website promoting Linux...
-Kardax
The CE Linux Forum site was built with Frontpage 5.0 and hosted on IIS. Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain, Dorothy.
That site is made with frontpage!
Unfortunately, the demands of content providers (including Sony) for Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) might make openness and iteroperability disappear. If there is a common platform for DRM, the devices are more likely to play well together than if everyone chooses a different OS and DRM.
Reading Slashdot is ruining my spelling and grammar.
This just in from a SCO representative "NO NO NO!!! Pay US US US!!!" who was then given a passifier and a five minute time out.
An LinuxCE SpokeDroid is quoted as responding with "Beep Boop Bobble
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
I don't think they'd get anywhere though, as it is CE Linux, not Linux CE. And CE stands for consumer electronics, which is what their usage of linux is all about... In short, I doubt even Microsoft would try and take them to court. SCO on the other hand....
actually, a company i used to work for created linux-based CE devices. however, the userland was entirely BSD derived (mostly in crunched binaries) and proprietary closed source software. as with most other CE's, we found little use for the GNU tools in the device itself (obviously we used the gnu development toolchain).
every once in a while, some jackass tried to tell us that we're not using "linux", we're using "GNU/Linux". we'd correct him, we use "BSD/Linux".
Leave it to the GNU/OSS/GPL guys to give you an acronym without spelling it out first.
:)
"The CE Linux Forum (CELF)..."
They tried describing it but only got there halfway
there have been little skirmishes between hardware makers and MS... the horrible cellphone stuff, the cable-box stuff...
but this... this is one of two things..
i hope its what i said - tht its a coup for the hardware makers to take back their devices... i mean, they can see the friggen code.. and if its not working for them, they can fix it.
but what i fear this may be is simply $15 of domain registration and 15 minutes of web development geared to scare MS into complying with their demands to lower Windows CE licensing (hell, Windows itself) and CE development tool licensing fees.
i'll be optimistic.. i say its really a coup and everyone in the WINCE dept in Redmond is getting a Holloween letter today about how they need to do whatever it takes, including dumping, to get back these people as customers.
gone are the days of 5 buttons and no UI to run CE devices.. the iPod has totally convinced everyone of that. These hardware makers need some way to control their products.. and this is really the best way to do it.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
This is the true spirit of linux.
Given the magnitude of the invoilved companies, I think this is a great step toward linux. Of the companies listed I own atleast one product from each and think a standardized front end to a broad range of devices is a wonderful idea.
Given the fact that almost every CE device has a frontend nowadays, it would be great if these guys pooled thier resources and created a standardized UI/Widget set that was highly portable and robust enough to handle the demands that these devices would require.
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch.
And in other industry news, Microsoft announced that they were replacing all the upper management for their Faithful User Department. The FUD team has often been criticised by high-ranking management for failing to produce the degree of loyalty desired in users. The high profile defections in Germany and Spain reportedly led to a confrontational meeting and a mass firing.
Just your friendly reminder that just because you're using linux, it doesn't mean you have to be open.
sure, some stuff like modifications required to pass certification will be shared with members of the Forum. but beyond that (and stuff required by the licenses), I wouldn't expect any open-ness from any of these vendors.
Uhm, what's wrong with for instance the
* Sharp Zaurus
* The Phototainer (InnoPlus)
? Both run Linux just fine.
Look at the PT, for instance, almost instant boot, instant shutdown, uses only 4 MB flash and 16 MB of memory, can play a buttload of different formats, talk to the internal HDD and CF cards (or others with adapters), plays nice as a usb-storage compatible device, and has an infrared receiver for the included remote. And has TV out. And a tiny speaker and 3.5mm sound out.
Now just imagine you incorporate this device into a mediaplayer - what would be missing?
Cheers!
I hope Motorola joins in, as well. Then there's the Embedded Linux Consortium. I do hope they consolidate their resources.
On a different note, any news on the Motorola A760?
"Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum"
I think this includes the Transformers, right? How about the other electronic giant monster and hero types?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Writing. Seriously, it's him. Scroll to About the author.
So what? They're not trying to promote a moral standard, they're just trying to encourage cheap production of useful software. They're having OSS developers do some of the work, to save cost.
And I say, go for it! Anything to get more attention to the benefits of Open Source. Benefits don't have to be limited to the end-user, you know...
What's this Submit thingy do?
There are questions that should be asked that I haven't seen being asked yet...
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
It's a replay of the Handset OS battle. The makers of consumer devices do not want to be PC'ed by Microsoft.
There is no margins in PC's and it's impossible to truely innovate as the infrastructure is pretty much owned by MS/Windows. The handset makers like Nokia etc. realized this early and they conseqently shun MS regardless of the quality / price of CE.
An opensource OS standard for consumer products are just what they want since no one controls the direction of the OS. Everyone can innovate and get a first mover advantage and at the same time make a credible case to the consumer that what they offer will not be a dead-end.
Help fight continental drift.
Windows CE & Linux? Oh the irony!!!
I suspect they're playing the game really smart by having OSS developers do some of the work. They publish their specs, and we'll do the work for free. I say go for it! It's a great way to expose additional benefits of using Open Source.
What's this Submit thingy do?
This is really just an enlargement (although a significant one) of the previously discussed agreement between Sony and Matsushita. I even submitted a story with back references to both previous stories, but it got rejected. Shrug.
The big deal, of course, is that Microsoft has been pushing Windows CE and other Windows technologies for use in consumer electronics devices. This is a direct challenge to that. And the cynic in me wonders if it isn't, at least in part, a bid to make Microsoft become more responsive to the CE manufacturer's requirements and reduce price as well.
...since our lovely TiVo DVRs are powered by Linux...would make sense...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Wow, the sleeping giants' alarm clocks have just gone off. I guess that nothing has any value until there's a billion dollar lawsuit over it. :)
Am I the only one that finds this a bit disturbing?
Firstly, this is a pay-to-join consortium. I assume that until you pay, you won't get to see the specs. Does this mean that the 'extensions' are going to be presented to Linus as a fait-accompli patch? How is he supposed to react to something that he doesn't like? It's one thing pissing off the odd developer, but rejecting a patch from a consortium of major keiretsu is surely going to have a bigger backlash. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic.
Secondly, they are acting as if they are the first people to have had this idea. Linux has been in several consumer eletronics devices already (Empeg & Tivo to name but two). What makes this consortium so special? What are they going to bring to the table that isn't already there?
I swear that slap to MicroSoft's face almost busted my eardrums.
How do I parse thee? Let me count the ways.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
If I was the folks at Windriver, I would be really worried. Linux or XP embedded is becoming the system of choice in the embedded space.
But you wouldn't know this from their 10K. I was going through it last night and noticed a couple of interesting facts. First, they have had negative cashflow in the last three years, and two, they only give a nod to the threat posed by Linux.
Linux really appeals to the whole range of embedded folks. For those who want something turnkey, they can get it. For those that want to get under the hood and tweak they can find it. And by going with Linux the manufacturers eliminiate a whole host of costs.
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but Here are the bylaws of the orginization.
15 minutes of web development>/i>
Am I the only one who thought that was the most sad web site possible... by several MegaBillion $ corporations ? It may be a temporary thing or something...or is it april 1 again ??.. hmm...gotta get out more
People modded this down? Wow, we have some die hard sheep in the house!
I've been using WinCE on several projects for about two years and haven't seen any footprint information on the latest flavors of embedded Linux. If anyone can spare a moment, could they let me know a ballpark estimate of the RAM and flash footprints of each of these configurations:
- A minimal, headless Linux embedded configuration.
- A headless configuration with basic TCP/IP functionality (FTP, telnet, ping, etc).
- Headless configuration with basic TCP/IP and a simple web server (so I might post config or maintenence data about the target that way).
- TCP/IP configuration with a minimal VGA/SVGA video dislay.
- Same config but with web browsing capability.
Again, no need for exact numbers - just ballpark estimates or a pointer to a site that might have this info. I have no immediate needs for this - we're actually very happy with WinCE. I'm just curious for any future needs. Thanks."Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
How about a functional James Bond watch? It can have things like laser cutters and electro magnetic pulse jammers and other cool things to give you that extra edge at the next LAN party. They need to recruit Rolex or Omega in the consortium so we won't look so geeky with a high tech blocky thing strapped on our wrist.
Next time a LAN party has a lot of network problems, look for a geek in a tux wearing a Rolex and beat the crap out of him.
--- I'm Green Hornet's sidekick not Inspector Clouseau's!
Put \r at the beginning of the line instead of \n at the end.
r ($sc=0;$sc'.(' 'x(70-$sc)).'| '.$throb[$sc % 4];
;)
#!/usr/bin/perl
@throb=('-','/','|','\\');
fo
`usleep 50000`;
}
It's all clear, now, isn't it?
--
(posting anonymously to protect my karma whore position from 'offtopic' moderation.)
Not bad for a non real-time OS.
Wonder if Linux will be extended to run an RT subsystem or the RTS extended to run Linux?
Wouldn't QNX give you a good idea?
it is what powers the progress meter
for(i=0; i<100;) {
printf(" %2d\r", ++i);
sleep(1000);
}
printf("Done\n");
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
CE has long been a term for Certified Electronics in Europe.
A bit like FCC ratings, most of our electronics goods have a little C/E sticker on them or have it embossed in the shell.
Windows CE was a confusing brand name here because of this. You would almost think it was done on purpose.
Imagine Philips releasing a set of products called "Philips Approved FCC"
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
As each manufacturer customises the environment to suit their needs it will be interesting to see which are prepared to release their firmware under the GPL.
Surely it will be tricky to program for Linux embedded devices without some developer cutting and pasting some GPL source code along the line.
Ah well, it won't be my ass on the line anyway. I'll keep on using Inferno which seems to have a lot more technically interesting things going for it.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I don't see any American company in the list. Seems to mee they all are scared by Microsoft and SCO.
Less is more !
Looking over the stuff (as I was not familiar with QNX), it appears that QNX is Posix compliant but isn't Linux. Is that correct?
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Linuxdevices.com is a good place to start looking for information on embedded Linux distributions. There are several free and commercial distributions, with varying attributes and footprints based on configuration.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
In all seriousness, this is going to be the first real fork of linux. They are releasing the code, but are unlikely to care if it gets folded back into the main code base. It'll also have lots of DRM "Features" that won't be released.
--
Let's end the tax deduction for advertising!
I believe so. I have always written my own runtime executable routines for the (limited) embedded sysetms work that I have done, so I'm not an expert on it. I was thinking more along the lines that QNX could give an idea of the memory footprints for Linux. ...
i nglinux03-long.php3
Okay, I went and did some checking, since I was curious anyways. It appears that a typical Linux kernal is 1.5 Mbytes. Too big for most real-time systems. On top of that, the kernel itself is a fairness scheduling algorithm, _and_ if a process is using the kernel resources, the process has to finish before the kernel is available for another process.
BUT! The kernel is modular (and open source!) so you could redo the algorithm, or take out modules to obtain something that has a scheduler more appropriate to real-time systems.
AND, the memory footprint of the kernal can be scaled down depending on what you need (or use) to about 300Kbytes for the kernal and about 100Kbytes for the file system, plus another 4Mbytes of RAM. If you include TCP/IP, it gets to be about twice as big. I got this information from here: http://www.lynuxworks.com/products/bluecat/faq/us
Even though that is one site, it appears that the info is conceivably possible.
Wouldn't it be better to call it LinCE?
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Thanks! I'll be checking it out.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
"IBM, an industry leader in Linux solutions and supporter of open standards ecosystems, is pursuing membership and plans to be an active participant in the CELF"
Of course, we all know how big a player IBM is in consumer electronics! Just look at the PCjr!
IBM, an industry leader in [choose an OS] solutions and supporter of [choose a movement], is pursuing membership and plans to be an active participant in the [choose a group].
Fucking moderators have no sense of humor. This deserves a 5+, I'm still cracking up. How does this shit get overrated? I overrated your mom when I gave her +1 insightful, when I meant to say +1 mycockful. Get it? Now that's funny.
Damn, I just answered the phone, talked for 10 minutes, came back to this post, and it's still cracking me up. Hehe, giants. yiiiiiiiihe!
Which MS likely has the right to change whenever they feel like it.
Further improve the startup and shutdown time
Improve real-time capabilities
Reduce ROM/RAM size requirements
Improve efficiency of power management
Aren't at least some of these requirements (especially #2) already addressed by L4Linux?
This article has additional information, including that the forum plans to release some source by the end of summer.
Well seems that the guy who forked gentoo with his "great" gentoo embedded idea does not have much of a business proposition after all. And why should he, with competition from QNS and existing Linux embedded projects.
And it isn't an alternative to RS-422. RS-422 is differentially signalled RS-232. I2C is not differentially signalled. If there's any protocol more subject to noise than RS-232, it's I2C.
I2C is a short-distance alternative to RS-485, like a few inches max bus length.
I'll give I2C this, at least it doesn't have clock rate problems like RS-232/422/485. However, it has every other problem much worse.
where is HP and ipaq?? http;//www.handhelds.org
This is a powerful group of companies that actually "get it". They genuinely understand that agreeing to give away their improvements isn't a concession - it means getting back ten-fold in return. Furthermore, they have committed to improving Linux in specific, important ways. On top of all that, they'll be using Linux and making it more visible while at the same time improving the quality and interoperability of their products. It's a win/win/win/win/win situation. K-rad.
... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
Next time somebody says that corporate users are afraid about the SCO crap, point them to this article.
If those companies are not concerned neither should yours be.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I think IBM is based in Ethiopia.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It appears that "CE" is being used by these companies simply as an abbreviation for Consumer Electronics. The "CE" symbol that you see on the label of many electronic devices has a different meaning - it is a certification that the product meets some minimum safety and environmental standards, and is allowed to be sold anywhere in the European Community.
For more reference:
http://www.cetest.nl/cemark0.htm
Here's the text of that page:
---
The ce mark is the official marking required by the European Community for all Electric- and Electronic equipment that will be sold, or put into service for the first time, anywhere in the European community. It proves to the buyer -or user- that this product fulfills all essential safety and environmental requirements as they are defined in the so-called European Directives. The ce marking directive (93/68/EEC) was adopted on 07-22-1993. The ce marking directive gives a detailed description of the initials CE and any other marks specific to a particular directive and the ways conformity may be acquired.
In return for fulfilling the ce marking requirements, the manufacturer or its agent gets the opportunity to cover the entire European market using only one approval procedure for the topics covered in the miscellaneous directives.
The member states of the EC cannot refuse any electronic or electrical product that has been ce marked (unless fraud suspected). For some products however, national regulations may exist, as long as the topics covered in these national regulations are not covered by a pan-European Directive.
The manufacturer needs however,:
* be European or,
* have an official department in the European Community or,
* have an official agent or representative that is willing to share the liability for the ce-marking and hold the Declaration of Conformity.
Although the ce mark is sufficient to allow exporting to all EC member countries, their are some restrictions left over. Be prepared to translate some part of operating and/or safety instructions in the language of the country you are exporting to.
The application of the ce mark to your product MUST be founded on a Compliance statement of the manufacturer or representative in the EC.
The ce mark must be adhered to the equipment and it's size must be 5 mm (0.2") or higher.
We provide a suitable font to apply the ce mark to your documents from within word or any other windows document.
You may purchase this font at a reduced price in our CE-shop or directly here.
---
Now, with Window CE 2004 Advanced Appliance, my remote control can see the network in my house if I reboot them both at exactly the same time and pray! Wait, why does the screen turn all blue like that??
yep, beat me to it...