"UDP streaming is not a hack. UDP is the right protocol for streaming."
I agree. UDP is the right protocol for streaming. But streaming of pre-recorded content is a dirty hack.
"Streaming with TCP is the ugly hack, and that's used because there are firewalls and NATs everywhere."
No, transfer of non realtime content over UDP is a hack. Realtime content belongs there. I do agree with streaming over HTTP being ugly. The main reason being that http is typical used for browsing and you generally want to make sure browsing remains responsive when bulk transfers are occurring.
"Also, throttling UDP is exactly as easy as throttling any other IP protocol. You simply don't need to look at anything beyond the IP header. More packets than you want to pass on? Drop them."
Yup. Drop them. All of them. Because UDP isn't going to slow itself down in response to congestion so its going to keep flinging packets at your device as fast as it can. That is going to saturate the transmission path to the device that is doing the throttling and the device is going to have to use extra resources to keep dropping that traffic. That throttling is going to result in hiccups at the client end as well because UDP isn't going to retransmit those dropped packets.
TCP over a super fast connection is going to slow down automatically in response to congestion even without the network operator implementing throttling. But whether real or artificial congestion, tcp will stop transmitting the data so fast in response. Nothing will be dropped. In fact because the link is so fast, the traffic can be thrown into a low priority queue bulk transfer queue and the client won't even notice the difference. The entire feature length video still starts playing with no lost frames in about 15 seconds. This reduces memory and processing overhead on the device (even dedicated asics have limits can't handle every port being utilized to full speed at once).
"If it does work that way then, urgh, I completely agree that TCP is the way to go. Never mind trying to stream in realtime (that's for interactive video and voice), using TCP and simply buffering a few seconds ahead of the playback would help everyone, including yourself."
Which ties back into what Vint is saying. Currently, even if the video is tcp and buffering, it piggy backs on http priority instead of falling into the bulk lowest priority download category and because of the small buffers the downloading video occupies the pipe for pretty much the entire couple hours of playback. If everyone had gigabit pipes the video could be downloaded entirely in the few seconds it takes to fill the buffer and start playback with current pipes.
Is there some basis for your post or do you just like throwing out random unsupported assertions?
UDP streams bloom out and consume the entire pipe for the duration of the transfer and they don't allow for proper congestion control. Encrypted content, even on tcp, is almost as bad because it piggy backs on a higher priority given to standard web content that you want to remain responsive during bulk transfers.
Someone else pointed out the application developer can implement a form of congestion control which is true. But it is hardly going to cooperate with the congestion control and QoS implemented by the network operator.
With a 15 second download, the entire video can be classed as a low priority bulk tcp transfer and still arrive faster than Netflix currently takes to fill the starting buffer.
Netflix is difficult to throttle because it first transfers through http(s) and second is encrypted drm laden data so it is difficult to distinguish from the web browsing which you want to be snappy while bulk transfers don't need to be. That said, some ISPs like comcast still manage to throttle it during peak times and netflix isn't the only streamer out there, there are plenty of udp streams going.
The part of equation that is missing is the super fast pipe that delivers the content QUICKLY. In the time it takes netflix to start playing the video now the entire file could be on my drive even while giving browsing and especially audio high priority.
I don't think you've caught the point. It isn't merely that 100% of the network won't be required if we are faster. If the connection is fast enough, the video doesn't have to be streamed through difficult to throttle udp but instead can be transferred as a network friendly tcp transfer. UDP video transfer is a dirty hack implemented because it was the only way to get video of watchable quality through. We are no longer in the days of choppy unwatchable video on the internet and if we move away from dirty hacks like udp streaming I doubt anyone would go back to it.
That's how I feel when game system posts come out. There are lots of topics that don't interest me, you don't see me cry each time an article gets posted.
"we'll accept the bloated runtime, and then too late see that only the most circumspectly crafted apps can avoid dependencies on some platform-specific library that can't be duplicated elsewhere (e.g. the situation with.NET/mono right now...), whether from incomplete specifications or patents -- worst of both worlds."
Of course and for the same reason as.NET/mono, this is being pushed by Microsoft. Did you think the platform specific libraries were an accident or oversight? Windows tie-in was a design decision and it will be again.
Re:Q: Why hasn't Mozilla considered a Firefox OS?
on
Where Is Firefox OS?
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· Score: 1
You are forgetting the extend and embrace part of the equation. Microsoft will add HTML 5 extensions and tie ins to the underlying subsystem. The result will be that they get to claim to be a completely open platform while remaining totally proprietary.
Where is here? Here in the US automatics are more common than stick by a large margin and have been for 20yrs. Unless you are traveling between cities you won't have to use anything but local streets with speed limits approaching but not passing 40mph.
These aren't free books. I paid for them via tax dollars. I have every right to demand they be PD and the world would be a better place if everyone else did as well.
"At what point did knowing what recommendations are being made to congress become useless for the general public?"
Somewhere around the start. Since the general public has little or no real influence on the actions of congress but rather only influence how to spin their choices at election time there is no particular reason for the general public to pay any attention.
"the police officers involved could easily find themselves behind bars for witness tampering, destruction of evidence amongst other things. And police officers do get sent to prison from time to time for this sort of behavior."
Citations? Even if this hits CNN the officers will face no real trial or charges, they will be suspended WITH pay until the press attention blows over. If it doesn't look that is going to happen they MIGHT get suspended without pay or fired. The police having to uphold the same standard they enforce? Never happen.
I remember those days of supporting small shops that sweat the price of a QB license and leave you jumping through hoops backwards to find solutions. It keeps you sharp but I wouldn't go back there willingly! It is a ton of work for small margins.
If your clients are sweating the price of a QB license then your hourly isn't nearly high enough. Charge a fair $150+/hr and you may not have the same clients but if you are good you will have new ones and they won't want you wasting hours upon hours supporting antiquated software.
"If you have an unlimited data plan, then you do not "pay by usage", you pay a flat rate..."
Not true. The cellular carrier has a tiered scale based on usage. I am at the top of the scale paying for 24/7 maximum usage at the maximum connection speed of my phone. This is also known as an unmetered link. I pay a substantial premium over the cost of a metered link. I could calculate out how much usage it is if only 3G actually referred to a link speed.
"Usage patterns do affect the network, so there is a tangible difference to the carrier as to whether you are using the data directly on the device, or via tethering."
Explain further. Aside from the amount of metered bandwidth I consume what difference does this make? I can download 12 torrents and save them to a network drive with my phone now. Also, tethering is enabled via a phone app. Therefore any data usage that comes of running that app is correctly gathered under the umbrella of the phone usage/patterns along with every other app you use on your phone.
"I just wish it was called something other than "rooting," as that's a misnomer at best."
Not sure what you mean here. Last I checked people referred to using the procedure to gain root access as "rooting" and anything else as modding or simply installing an alternate rom. I haven't really seen any sign of people using the term "root" to encompass all of the above.
Unless you mean the same technically illiterate people who refer to a pc tower as a "hard drive" but they really don't count, since they wouldn't be able to understand the concept of rooting or a rom and therefore have no chance of using the terms correctly.
Telecoms enjoy government subsidies and have benefited from numerous tax credits to build out their infrastructure (which they mostly pocketed rather than use). The minute they stop paying their fair share of taxes and took tax dollars they took on an obligation to taxpayers.
Taxpayers ARE entitled to a reasonable level of service from anyone who enjoys common carrier status. They've paid for it, not just in taxes, but also in legal protections.
You do know its trivial to unlock a cell phone and bring it to another carrier right? If you have the new carrier initiate the termination of the agreement you can even take your phone number with you.
Your right, except that according to the terms you listed you don't owe the ETF if Verizon terminates the agreement either "with good cause" or otherwise.
If the carrier breaks the contract, you can get out of it without an ETF. If the carrier terminates the contract, you also get out with an ETF. If they change the terms, you don't have to agree to the new terms, in which case the carrier will terminate the contract and you get out of the ETF. The only time you pay an ETF is if YOU terminate the service under the terms you've already agreed to.
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If you stop being screaming and mindless then we'll stop calling you a christian.
Can't get more fair than that now can you?
"UDP streaming is not a hack. UDP is the right protocol for streaming."
I agree. UDP is the right protocol for streaming. But streaming of pre-recorded content is a dirty hack.
"Streaming with TCP is the ugly hack, and that's used because there are firewalls and NATs everywhere."
No, transfer of non realtime content over UDP is a hack. Realtime content belongs there. I do agree with streaming over HTTP being ugly. The main reason being that http is typical used for browsing and you generally want to make sure browsing remains responsive when bulk transfers are occurring.
"Also, throttling UDP is exactly as easy as throttling any other IP protocol. You simply don't need to look at anything beyond the IP header. More packets than you want to pass on? Drop them."
Yup. Drop them. All of them. Because UDP isn't going to slow itself down in response to congestion so its going to keep flinging packets at your device as fast as it can. That is going to saturate the transmission path to the device that is doing the throttling and the device is going to have to use extra resources to keep dropping that traffic. That throttling is going to result in hiccups at the client end as well because UDP isn't going to retransmit those dropped packets.
TCP over a super fast connection is going to slow down automatically in response to congestion even without the network operator implementing throttling. But whether real or artificial congestion, tcp will stop transmitting the data so fast in response. Nothing will be dropped. In fact because the link is so fast, the traffic can be thrown into a low priority queue bulk transfer queue and the client won't even notice the difference. The entire feature length video still starts playing with no lost frames in about 15 seconds. This reduces memory and processing overhead on the device (even dedicated asics have limits can't handle every port being utilized to full speed at once).
"If it does work that way then, urgh, I completely agree that TCP is the way to go. Never mind trying to stream in realtime (that's for interactive video and voice), using TCP and simply buffering a few seconds ahead of the playback would help everyone, including yourself."
Which ties back into what Vint is saying. Currently, even if the video is tcp and buffering, it piggy backs on http priority instead of falling into the bulk lowest priority download category and because of the small buffers the downloading video occupies the pipe for pretty much the entire couple hours of playback. If everyone had gigabit pipes the video could be downloaded entirely in the few seconds it takes to fill the buffer and start playback with current pipes.
Is there some basis for your post or do you just like throwing out random unsupported assertions?
UDP streams bloom out and consume the entire pipe for the duration of the transfer and they don't allow for proper congestion control. Encrypted content, even on tcp, is almost as bad because it piggy backs on a higher priority given to standard web content that you want to remain responsive during bulk transfers.
Someone else pointed out the application developer can implement a form of congestion control which is true. But it is hardly going to cooperate with the congestion control and QoS implemented by the network operator.
With a 15 second download, the entire video can be classed as a low priority bulk tcp transfer and still arrive faster than Netflix currently takes to fill the starting buffer.
Netflix is difficult to throttle because it first transfers through http(s) and second is encrypted drm laden data so it is difficult to distinguish from the web browsing which you want to be snappy while bulk transfers don't need to be. That said, some ISPs like comcast still manage to throttle it during peak times and netflix isn't the only streamer out there, there are plenty of udp streams going.
The part of equation that is missing is the super fast pipe that delivers the content QUICKLY. In the time it takes netflix to start playing the video now the entire file could be on my drive even while giving browsing and especially audio high priority.
I don't think you've caught the point. It isn't merely that 100% of the network won't be required if we are faster. If the connection is fast enough, the video doesn't have to be streamed through difficult to throttle udp but instead can be transferred as a network friendly tcp transfer. UDP video transfer is a dirty hack implemented because it was the only way to get video of watchable quality through. We are no longer in the days of choppy unwatchable video on the internet and if we move away from dirty hacks like udp streaming I doubt anyone would go back to it.
That's how I feel when game system posts come out. There are lots of topics that don't interest me, you don't see me cry each time an article gets posted.
"we'll accept the bloated runtime, and then too late see that only the most circumspectly crafted apps can avoid dependencies on some platform-specific library that can't be duplicated elsewhere (e.g. the situation with .NET/mono right now...), whether from incomplete specifications or patents -- worst of both worlds."
Of course and for the same reason as .NET/mono, this is being pushed by Microsoft. Did you think the platform specific libraries were an accident or oversight? Windows tie-in was a design decision and it will be again.
You are forgetting the extend and embrace part of the equation. Microsoft will add HTML 5 extensions and tie ins to the underlying subsystem. The result will be that they get to claim to be a completely open platform while remaining totally proprietary.
So that is why the US govt extends its tax collections to income derived outside US borders. It's worth more if it can extend its tax blanket.
Where is here? Here in the US automatics are more common than stick by a large margin and have been for 20yrs. Unless you are traveling between cities you won't have to use anything but local streets with speed limits approaching but not passing 40mph.
You have a high opinion of major metropolitan areas...
These aren't free books. I paid for them via tax dollars. I have every right to demand they be PD and the world would be a better place if everyone else did as well.
"At what point did knowing what recommendations are being made to congress become useless for the general public?"
Somewhere around the start. Since the general public has little or no real influence on the actions of congress but rather only influence how to spin their choices at election time there is no particular reason for the general public to pay any attention.
Since I paid for these books via tax dollars, let me know when it is public domain and I'll think about downloading it.
"It definitely is"
True
"the police officers involved could easily find themselves behind bars for witness tampering, destruction of evidence amongst other things. And police officers do get sent to prison from time to time for this sort of behavior."
Citations? Even if this hits CNN the officers will face no real trial or charges, they will be suspended WITH pay until the press attention blows over. If it doesn't look that is going to happen they MIGHT get suspended without pay or fired. The police having to uphold the same standard they enforce? Never happen.
I remember those days of supporting small shops that sweat the price of a QB license and leave you jumping through hoops backwards to find solutions. It keeps you sharp but I wouldn't go back there willingly! It is a ton of work for small margins.
If your clients are sweating the price of a QB license then your hourly isn't nearly high enough. Charge a fair $150+/hr and you may not have the same clients but if you are good you will have new ones and they won't want you wasting hours upon hours supporting antiquated software.
"in random order(as to prevent the top one from being the most downloaded)"
Is there some reason these sites should care if one is downloaded more than the other?
"If you have an unlimited data plan, then you do not "pay by usage", you pay a flat rate..."
Not true. The cellular carrier has a tiered scale based on usage. I am at the top of the scale paying for 24/7 maximum usage at the maximum connection speed of my phone. This is also known as an unmetered link. I pay a substantial premium over the cost of a metered link. I could calculate out how much usage it is if only 3G actually referred to a link speed.
"Usage patterns do affect the network, so there is a tangible difference to the carrier as to whether you are using the data directly on the device, or via tethering."
Explain further. Aside from the amount of metered bandwidth I consume what difference does this make? I can download 12 torrents and save them to a network drive with my phone now. Also, tethering is enabled via a phone app. Therefore any data usage that comes of running that app is correctly gathered under the umbrella of the phone usage/patterns along with every other app you use on your phone.
I'd contend it correctly indicates users freeing themselves of restrictions which exist because the carrier views all users as criminals.
"I just wish it was called something other than "rooting," as that's a misnomer at best."
Not sure what you mean here. Last I checked people referred to using the procedure to gain root access as "rooting" and anything else as modding or simply installing an alternate rom. I haven't really seen any sign of people using the term "root" to encompass all of the above.
Unless you mean the same technically illiterate people who refer to a pc tower as a "hard drive" but they really don't count, since they wouldn't be able to understand the concept of rooting or a rom and therefore have no chance of using the terms correctly.
With a cell phone carrier I pay by usage so it doesn't really matter what my patterns look like. Especially with an unlimited data plan.
Telecoms enjoy government subsidies and have benefited from numerous tax credits to build out their infrastructure (which they mostly pocketed rather than use). The minute they stop paying their fair share of taxes and took tax dollars they took on an obligation to taxpayers.
Taxpayers ARE entitled to a reasonable level of service from anyone who enjoys common carrier status. They've paid for it, not just in taxes, but also in legal protections.
You do know its trivial to unlock a cell phone and bring it to another carrier right? If you have the new carrier initiate the termination of the agreement you can even take your phone number with you.
Your right, except that according to the terms you listed you don't owe the ETF if Verizon terminates the agreement either "with good cause" or otherwise.
If the carrier breaks the contract, you can get out of it without an ETF. If the carrier terminates the contract, you also get out with an ETF. If they change the terms, you don't have to agree to the new terms, in which case the carrier will terminate the contract and you get out of the ETF. The only time you pay an ETF is if YOU terminate the service under the terms you've already agreed to.