Ok, half my post was dedicated to how to calculate that reduction. Please read it.
"Does that really make sense? WMP is downloaded free to older installed OSes anyway and will be DLed free to N versions. (Or should they start charging $1 to download it to N versions? but leave it free for non N versions?!?!?)"
There is nothing free about it, the media free and regular editions are the same price. Windows updates and media player are restricted to those with a windows license, those cost of media player is included with ALL windows licenses. So if the media free licenses are the same price, that means your media free license includes the price of media player. You are still paying for the license, they just aren't including the software your paying for.
I believe the general point was that some people would rather not pay for media player in the first place. After subtracting the cost of media player the OEM price of the OS might go from $140 to your mythical $99 price tag.
"Does that really make any sense? Virtually everyone who gets an N version will DL WMP for free from Windows Update anyway and end up with the exact same package. The entire N debacle is just ludacris from the start."
I would. I hate WMP, but hell, if I'm going to pay for it I might as well get what I paid for. However, if the price of my windows license was reduced by the cost of WMP and I was not allowed to download it without paying that additional cost I would CHOOSE to invest in a superior application such as WinAMP.
"junior racing programs with boats that can be had for a few thousand dollars"
Any kid with a possession that cost several thousand dollars is clearly a rich kid. Let alone a possession that is entirely a luxurery item. Although renting could offer a slightly more reasonable option.
"Also the bigger boats need a lot of crew, so many of the members have no boat at all."
Do they really give the help... err crew, membership?
"MEP == Member of the European Parliment,;) ((joke))what does US stand for hehe((/joke))."
Although your not really arguing the point I will correct you anyway. This is a US forum that foreigners choose to frequent. So in the forum it is appropriate to speak in a manner that assumes a US audience any lack of understanding from non USian audiences leaves the burden upon them to correct their ignorance of the localized subject matter.
It goes without saying that if this were a European forum it would in principal be the other way around. Of course us arrogant USians would apply a double standard using the same logic that causes us to push the English language upon the rest of the world.
On a side note I suppose having an annual defense budget larger than the annual trade gains of the entire EU literally buys you the privlage of being an international arse of a nation.
By whining about the great expense needed to not include additional software in windows they (AFAIK) dodged having to provide the "N" version at a reduced price.
This kind of defeats the point of this whole thing. Why would you buy the N version if MS is going to charge you for media player anyway? MS should be forced to reduce the price. The officials can use creative accounting to help determine how much for MS.
Basically they should take all Development costs that Microsoft deducted for Mediaplayer since the first alpha version. Divide this number by the total number of combined XP sales. Then apply the average lifetime markup for MS Office/OS products and subtract the total from the price of the "N" versions.
"Last time I bought a car, it came with a stereo already in it, yet, this wasn't an antitrust or monopoly concern"
You analogy is invalid. You car manufacturer does not have a monopoly on cars and therefore can not leverage the monopoly it doesn't have to gain monopolies in new markets (like car stereos).
If one car manufacturer had a monopoly on cars, and then started producing car stereos and including them with its own cars (say to push a patented DRM scheme that they invented and only their stereos support). THAT would be an anti-trust concern just like this.
Exactly, the Plenum requirement gives job security to professional cable installers but most likely exists to give job security to fire inspectors and give a source of revenue to cities when violations occur.
PC # 1 - Innovative PC # 2 - Sorry PC #1 was already patented.
But but, pc # 2 is running different software.
Oops, sorry, can't beat it with a hammer must be intangible. Maybe you should try the copyright office.
"Actually, it would probably be worse than present, because given the intelligence the patent office has shown so far, they'd probably take a few photos of the motherboard, and not even bother to save a hard disk image, much less think to ask for a description of how the software does what it does."
Good. What is stored on the Hard drive is intangible and therefore is not part of the physical invention.
Yes. But they are intangibles and therefore fall under copyright. If you prefer a different distinction, simply making a rule that if you can't beat it with a hammer, you can't patent it.
The first time a pc gets sent in, it gets a patent. The second time a pc gets sent in but running different software it gets denied because the last pc got patented. The software is not a physical object and therefore does not qualify for a patent.
Ah but ideas, concepts, and software are not things that have a legitimate place in patent law.
Ideas of course simply are not property and concepts are just ideas. Software falls under copyright and therefore the only thing you could try to patent in the realm of software would be ideas and concepts which are not valid patentable material. I am not advising a new system here, I was refering to the system that was originally in place.
The reason it was changed was NOT to allow the patenting of ideas and concepts, but because they ran out of room to store submissions. This is why we have so many old inventions to show for TV shows and such, there are huge warehouses holding them.
"I wouldn't be suprised if Mac users were on average more savy, and this could contribute."
I would be extremely suprised. The only things Macs are really known for are being designed to be easy for people who know nothing about computers.
Generally I'd expect competent windows users to be more savy than competent mac users because the bar is higher. You have to know more to be a proficient windows user.
And I would expect competent Linux and other *nix users to be the most competent, again because the bar is set higher.
I think that patents should require a working physical invention be sent to he patent office again.
To fix the warehousing problem they simply do not keep the inventions, instead they keep a series of digital images on each device that can be reviewed later.
Damn, too bad you couldn't patent software anymore if you had to send a physical invention eh?
I still say your fighting the wrong problem. Politics are corrupt and no political action, including voting, is going to resolve the problems there. If the opponent is using loaded dice he will win the toss every time.
The answer is NOT to vote. The answer is to start educating your fellow man. Start an after school program that teaches critical thinking. If you like politics then push to have a critical thinking course added to your states educational requirements. Go through the less closely guarded back door to promote change.
It doesn't matter. Access to manipulate the binary is not a requirement of the GPL. The binary changing hands from vendor to end user is enough, it doesn't matter what media/hardware it is distributed on or whether that media/hardware is open.
If a binary passes from you to me, you are obligated to provide me with the code and your modifications to that code.
"Do you have the executable if you use a washing machine running linux? do you have the executable if you access a device of the LAn, do you have a executable if you run an application on a gpl webserver?"
YES. Just like you have the MS windows binaries if you bought a pc with them preloaded. Just because the software is preinstalled on a piece of hardware doesn't mean you do not have the software!
The binaries are not the installer and the GPL does not require you to be able to manipulate the binaries. If they sent you the device and that device has a binary image of gpl software installed on it, then that counts. Period. There is no limit. The GPL is very clear on this.
"Linus et al won't get every contributor to the table to agree to a license change."
He does not have to. The GPL technically does not really require forks to license under the GPL, just to provide compatible terms. That means Linus can download the code from kernel.org under the GPL and then relicense under the compatible GPL v.3 plus mods.
"Ok, if your individual vote doesn't count, then form voting blocks with your neighbors. If money is such a big issue, then form really big voting blocks and pool the money."
Ok the problem with this, is that ultimately it requires amasing a majority. For starters, this is bad policy in itself since majority rules is the same as mob rule. Second, this may come as a news flash but the average IQ floating around is 100.
The average American has been brainwashed with non-factual and distorted patriotic tales in school and never had a single class on logic or critical thinking. In fact the educational system teaches them NOT to question authority and to conform. Instead of being designed as institutions of learning, our schools are designed as detention centers that babysit our nations youth and happen to have a couple textbooks laying around.
"The ballots that I see have all sorts of options, greens, libertarians, independants, even communists and neo-naxis."
You realize that some of these candidates were actually arrested when they showed up to debate? Despite having a court order in hand? The media and the major parties censor the smaller parties, and if they have no voice, the rest of us do not get to hear enough to even be deluded into thinking they are a good choice.
The average person is STUPID. If you doubt take some advice from one of the greatest manipulators in history, "it is fortunate for leaders that men do not think." - Adolph Hitler. The average man does not think critically, the average man trusts his leaders and the not so average trusts that the Vietnam war showed clearly that the will of the people no longer has influence.
As long as we have a system of government ruled by the ignorant and under-educated majority, that majority will vote how the media tells it to vote and think the way it is told to think. If you want to fix the government lobby for a couple amendments to the voting law, remove the age requirement and add a minimum IQ requirement of about 130.
"NT4s design was that you trade speed for stability, then its not flawed at all."
Of course. And the right way to make that tradeoff is the answer to your next response.
"What about the Linux kernel... not exactly a micrkernel now is it, but no-one's mentioned that."
Microkernels can IN THEORY be more secure and flexible than Macrokernels. Macrokernels are IN FACT 20-30% faster than equivelent Microkernels.
When they traded stability and security away in the design of the NT kernel they traded away the theoretical benefits of a microkernel design and aimed for an area that macrokernels factually excel at. Talk about the wrong tool for the job...
When you render material into the public domain it is drastically different than releasing it under a less restrictive or alternative license.
Rendering something into the public domain technically does not require distributing anything to anyone under any terms. Rendering into the public domain is literally the process of irrevocably and permanently waiving all copyright to the material in question and prematurely giving all of your former rights to the public.
My point is that you did not claim there was a more liberal medium under which to distribute code.
You said that there was a question as to whether the GPL imposed restrictions or bestowed rights.
For some odd reason you seem to want to imply that the existance of the public domain has even a vague relation to whether or not the GPL is a relaxtion of the default copyrighted state.
Slashdot Mirror
"So how much should they reduce the price?"
Ok, half my post was dedicated to how to calculate that reduction. Please read it.
"Does that really make sense? WMP is downloaded free to older installed OSes anyway and will be DLed free to N versions. (Or should they start charging $1 to download it to N versions? but leave it free for non N versions?!?!?)"
There is nothing free about it, the media free and regular editions are the same price. Windows updates and media player are restricted to those with a windows license, those cost of media player is included with ALL windows licenses. So if the media free licenses are the same price, that means your media free license includes the price of media player. You are still paying for the license, they just aren't including the software your paying for.
I believe the general point was that some people would rather not pay for media player in the first place. After subtracting the cost of media player the OEM price of the OS might go from $140 to your mythical $99 price tag.
"Does that really make any sense? Virtually everyone who gets an N version will DL WMP for free from Windows Update anyway and end up with the exact same package. The entire N debacle is just ludacris from the start."
I would. I hate WMP, but hell, if I'm going to pay for it I might as well get what I paid for. However, if the price of my windows license was reduced by the cost of WMP and I was not allowed to download it without paying that additional cost I would CHOOSE to invest in a superior application such as WinAMP.
"junior racing programs with boats that can be had for a few thousand dollars"
Any kid with a possession that cost several thousand dollars is clearly a rich kid. Let alone a possession that is entirely a luxurery item. Although renting could offer a slightly more reasonable option.
"Also the bigger boats need a lot of crew, so many of the members have no boat at all."
Do they really give the help... err crew, membership?
"MEP == Member of the European Parliment, ;) ((joke))what does US stand for hehe((/joke))."
Although your not really arguing the point I will correct you anyway. This is a US forum that foreigners choose to frequent. So in the forum it is appropriate to speak in a manner that assumes a US audience any lack of understanding from non USian audiences leaves the burden upon them to correct their ignorance of the localized subject matter.
It goes without saying that if this were a European forum it would in principal be the other way around. Of course us arrogant USians would apply a double standard using the same logic that causes us to push the English language upon the rest of the world.
On a side note I suppose having an annual defense budget larger than the annual trade gains of the entire EU literally buys you the privlage of being an international arse of a nation.
By whining about the great expense needed to not include additional software in windows they (AFAIK) dodged having to provide the "N" version at a reduced price.
This kind of defeats the point of this whole thing. Why would you buy the N version if MS is going to charge you for media player anyway? MS should be forced to reduce the price. The officials can use creative accounting to help determine how much for MS.
Basically they should take all Development costs that Microsoft deducted for Mediaplayer since the first alpha version. Divide this number by the total number of combined XP sales. Then apply the average lifetime markup for MS Office/OS products and subtract the total from the price of the "N" versions.
"Last time I bought a car, it came with a stereo already in it, yet, this wasn't an antitrust or monopoly concern"
You analogy is invalid. You car manufacturer does not have a monopoly on cars and therefore can not leverage the monopoly it doesn't have to gain monopolies in new markets (like car stereos).
If one car manufacturer had a monopoly on cars, and then started producing car stereos and including them with its own cars (say to push a patented DRM scheme that they invented and only their stereos support). THAT would be an anti-trust concern just like this.
Exactly, the Plenum requirement gives job security to professional cable installers but most likely exists to give job security to fire inspectors and give a source of revenue to cities when violations occur.
By my definition even the least expensive yachts could not be owned by someone who qualifies as middle class.
PC # 1 - Innovative
PC # 2 - Sorry PC #1 was already patented.
But but, pc # 2 is running different software.
Oops, sorry, can't beat it with a hammer must be intangible. Maybe you should try the copyright office.
"Actually, it would probably be worse than present, because given the intelligence the patent office has shown so far, they'd probably take a few photos of the motherboard, and not even bother to save a hard disk image, much less think to ask for a description of how the software does what it does."
Good. What is stored on the Hard drive is intangible and therefore is not part of the physical invention.
Yes. But they are intangibles and therefore fall under copyright. If you prefer a different distinction, simply making a rule that if you can't beat it with a hammer, you can't patent it.
The first time a pc gets sent in, it gets a patent. The second time a pc gets sent in but running different software it gets denied because the last pc got patented. The software is not a physical object and therefore does not qualify for a patent.
Ah but ideas, concepts, and software are not things that have a legitimate place in patent law.
Ideas of course simply are not property and concepts are just ideas. Software falls under copyright and therefore the only thing you could try to patent in the realm of software would be ideas and concepts which are not valid patentable material. I am not advising a new system here, I was refering to the system that was originally in place.
The reason it was changed was NOT to allow the patenting of ideas and concepts, but because they ran out of room to store submissions. This is why we have so many old inventions to show for TV shows and such, there are huge warehouses holding them.
yup, do you know anyone who has a patent on that concept? of course not. You can patent the implementation, not the concept your implemented.
"I wouldn't be suprised if Mac users were on average more savy, and this could contribute."
I would be extremely suprised. The only things Macs are really known for are being designed to be easy for people who know nothing about computers.
Generally I'd expect competent windows users to be more savy than competent mac users because the bar is higher. You have to know more to be a proficient windows user.
And I would expect competent Linux and other *nix users to be the most competent, again because the bar is set higher.
Now if your counting Incompetent users
No, the entire point is that an actual PHYSICAL device be required. You are NOT SUPPOSED to patent concepts.
I think that patents should require a working physical invention be sent to he patent office again.
To fix the warehousing problem they simply do not keep the inventions, instead they keep a series of digital images on each device that can be reviewed later.
Damn, too bad you couldn't patent software anymore if you had to send a physical invention eh?
I still say your fighting the wrong problem. Politics are corrupt and no political action, including voting, is going to resolve the problems there. If the opponent is using loaded dice he will win the toss every time.
The answer is NOT to vote. The answer is to start educating your fellow man. Start an after school program that teaches critical thinking. If you like politics then push to have a critical thinking course added to your states educational requirements. Go through the less closely guarded back door to promote change.
It doesn't matter. Access to manipulate the binary is not a requirement of the GPL. The binary changing hands from vendor to end user is enough, it doesn't matter what media/hardware it is distributed on or whether that media/hardware is open.
If a binary passes from you to me, you are obligated to provide me with the code and your modifications to that code.
"Do you have the executable if you use a washing machine running linux? do you have the executable if you access a device of the LAn, do you have a executable if you run an application on a gpl webserver?"
YES. Just like you have the MS windows binaries if you bought a pc with them preloaded. Just because the software is preinstalled on a piece of hardware doesn't mean you do not have the software!
The binaries are not the installer and the GPL does not require you to be able to manipulate the binaries. If they sent you the device and that device has a binary image of gpl software installed on it, then that counts. Period. There is no limit. The GPL is very clear on this.
"Linus et al won't get every contributor to the table to agree to a license change."
He does not have to. The GPL technically does not really require forks to license under the GPL, just to provide compatible terms. That means Linus can download the code from kernel.org under the GPL and then relicense under the compatible GPL v.3 plus mods.
This is a read-only license that applies only to government created documents.
No, this legal right to view documents only applies to government created documents. Corps and individuals need not apply.
God forbid the formats be opened up and Office should actually have to compete on technical and financial merit rather than vendor lockin!
"Ok, if your individual vote doesn't count, then form voting blocks with your neighbors. If money is such a big issue, then form really big voting blocks and pool the money."
Ok the problem with this, is that ultimately it requires amasing a majority. For starters, this is bad policy in itself since majority rules is the same as mob rule. Second, this may come as a news flash but the average IQ floating around is 100.
The average American has been brainwashed with non-factual and distorted patriotic tales in school and never had a single class on logic or critical thinking. In fact the educational system teaches them NOT to question authority and to conform. Instead of being designed as institutions of learning, our schools are designed as detention centers that babysit our nations youth and happen to have a couple textbooks laying around.
"The ballots that I see have all sorts of options, greens, libertarians, independants, even communists and neo-naxis."
You realize that some of these candidates were actually arrested when they showed up to debate? Despite having a court order in hand? The media and the major parties censor the smaller parties, and if they have no voice, the rest of us do not get to hear enough to even be deluded into thinking they are a good choice.
The average person is STUPID. If you doubt take some advice from one of the greatest manipulators in history, "it is fortunate for leaders that men do not think." - Adolph Hitler. The average man does not think critically, the average man trusts his leaders and the not so average trusts that the Vietnam war showed clearly that the will of the people no longer has influence.
As long as we have a system of government ruled by the ignorant and under-educated majority, that majority will vote how the media tells it to vote and think the way it is told to think. If you want to fix the government lobby for a couple amendments to the voting law, remove the age requirement and add a minimum IQ requirement of about 130.
"NT4s design was that you trade speed for stability, then its not flawed at all."
Of course. And the right way to make that tradeoff is the answer to your next response.
"What about the Linux kernel... not exactly a micrkernel now is it, but no-one's mentioned that."
Microkernels can IN THEORY be more secure and flexible than Macrokernels. Macrokernels are IN FACT 20-30% faster than equivelent Microkernels.
When they traded stability and security away in the design of the NT kernel they traded away the theoretical benefits of a microkernel design and aimed for an area that macrokernels factually excel at. Talk about the wrong tool for the job...
When you render material into the public domain it is drastically different than releasing it under a less restrictive or alternative license.
Rendering something into the public domain technically does not require distributing anything to anyone under any terms. Rendering into the public domain is literally the process of irrevocably and permanently waiving all copyright to the material in question and prematurely giving all of your former rights to the public.
My point is that you did not claim there was a more liberal medium under which to distribute code.
You said that there was a question as to whether the GPL imposed restrictions or bestowed rights.
For some odd reason you seem to want to imply that the existance of the public domain has even a vague relation to whether or not the GPL is a relaxtion of the default copyrighted state.