AU Regulations on LAN Cabling?

An anonymous reader asks: "After getting a ridiculous quote for the cost of rewiring an office, I started investigating the possibility of doing all the phone/data cabling myself. About 40 RJ-45 ports all coming back to a central patch panel that would be patched into the phone or data switch as needed. My research found that doing this simple job would be illegal in Australia, according to the Australian Communications Authority's (ACA) website. According to them, they have the right to walk in at any time and demand an audit of your LAN, and if it was not installed by a registered cabler, you can be fined up to $13,000. My question is, how does this compare to legislation in other parts of the world? Also, has anyone in Australia ever been subject to one of these 'cabling audits'? Was it painful?"

Comments

Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[MikeDawg]

What it sounds like to me is that Australia has some pro-union legislation in place. I'm not familiar with Australia, or the job force down there; but after reading this article it sounds like there are some unions down there that got some legislation passed in their favor.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[gl4ss]

exactly.

though, is it just for permanent installations? make yours 'non-permanent'... in other words, just leave the cables on the floor in one big mess.

and see how easy it would be to register yourself as a cabler..

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[Sparr0]

This is a perfect example of why groups of people should not be allowed to exert political influence, and how unions can turn bad (since, in their basic form (group bargaining for employment benefits), a union is a great thing).

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[4of12]

This is a perfect example of why groups of people should not be allowed to exert political influence, and how unions can turn bad (since, in their basic form (group bargaining for employment benefits), a union is a great thing).

I'd be more broad minded in my criticism.

Yes, unions can act badly, creating this obvious market inefficiency due to their aggregated power in the labor-selling marketplace.

But, just as concentrated power in the labor market can be bad, there are at least as many if not more examples of where market dominance by corporations cause inherent inefficiencies in the free market system.

The most efficient system is where there aer large numbers of buyers and sellers of labor (or anything else). As the number of either decreases, then one or the other side are in a position to take advantage of the market for their own gain, be they unions or employers.

In my world, the intersecting set of employees and stockholders would be much larger than it is today.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[rmarll]

and see how easy it would be to register yourself as a cabler..

ding ding ding

Or...

Go wireless

Or...

Find a cable installer that works in a large company and pay your new buddy a reasonable sum to do the job off company time. You should be able to pay considerably better than his wage while paying considerably less than what the company would charge you.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[squiggleslash]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but as you don't link to evidence, and as I've experienced an alternative, I thought I'd point out the other explanation.

In Britain, until 1984, British Telecommunications Plc (better known as "BT") was part of the Post Office, and essentially had a monopoly over all telecommunications. The company was privatized, and the laws that had previously governed telecommunications were very slowly liberalized.

Now, to give you some idea of the scale of what we're talking about, the state of the law in 1983 meant that you couldn't actually wire up a large building with a private phone system. You had to get the Post Office to do it for you. The Post Office argued that it had the right to insist on this, as anything else was a blatent attempt to circumvent its monopoly. Worse, if the system was to be connected to the PSTN (via a PBX or something), then miswiring could cause the entire telephone network to be destroyed.

(But lightning strikes wouldn't cause the same damage. Go figure.)

When the law was liberalized, it remained the case the government had an absolute monopoly on all telecommunications. What they did then was grant two types of license, special telecommunications licenses for entities like BT and Mercury (the half-arsed attempt by Cable and Wireless to build a competitor), and "class licenses" that applied to anyone trying to do a certain type of thing. For example, a class license exists (and does so today, I'm not making this up) that allows you to run telephone wires in your own home.

For a long time, until the EU told them they couldn't do it, you had to get government approval for every piece of equipment you wanted to hook up to the PSTN. Checking for approval meant looking for a device with a green BABT stcker on it. If it didn't have the sticker, you weren't allowed to hook it up. Nobody took it particularly seriously, even BT, the company supposedly most at risk from faulty equipment, ignored violations.

I don't know if Australia's phone service was initially a state monopoly, but if it was, I'd be very surprised if the reason for this type of law isn't similar to the nonsense above. A monopoly is picked apart and an industry deregulated, and little things like the above are left behind, startling anyone who comes across them.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[walt-sjc]

I looked into the requirements to become a licensed electrician for my brother who was looking at changing careers... They include some classroom requirements and that you pass a test, but more importantly, you need to be an apprentice with a union shop for many years (as they are the only ones that have a "qualified program".) This does two things: it keeps the number of electricians down as only a few people are accepted for these programs, and guarantees cheap labor for at least 5 years. Are the apprentices getting valuable on the job training? Nope - they are the ones doing all the major grunt work of digging ditches, drilling holes, bending conduit, pulling cable, etc. while the senior guys do all the connection work, etc. It's a racket. You could have a degree in electrical engineering, pass any test with a perfect score, be more competernt in practice than any current master electrician out there but you can't get licensed without going through the apprentice program. I've known a couple good people who started down that path and got totally fed up with ONLY doing the crap work. Damn unions. There was a time and a place for them. No longer.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[Chess_the_cat]

Originally unions were meant to keep employers accountable to their employees. Modern unions are charged with keeping employees from being accountable to their employers.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[tonsofpcs]

Go wireless -- How does the wireless hook to anything else? WIRE!!

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[sr180]

Essentially Australia's phone system has gone through the exact same debacle. Initially Phone Services were all provided by the Federal Owned Monopoly, Telecomm Australia, which was renamed to Telstra before half was sold while the remaining half remains under the control of the Federal Government.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[belmolis]

Many years ago at an organization I will not name research staff were not supposed to run network cable because the union rules required that members of a particular union run all cable, even the cable in cable trays in the corridors. If you followed the rules, it would take a couple months for them to get to it and they'd screw it up. In order to get anything done, the research staff would organize fast, precisely timed "guerilla cable laying parties" between union shifts. In this case, the union rules just had the effect of irritating people who were basically pro-union.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[sameyeam]

For a long time, until the EU told them they couldn't do it, you had to get government approval for every piece of equipment you wanted to hook up to the PSTN. Checking for approval meant looking for a device with a green BABT stcker on it

Is that true? The way I understood it was that if you hooked up an "unapproved device" and it caused damage to the network, then you were responsible for all the costs...whereas if an approved device caused damage, then the most you could be liable for is your own equipment.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[squiggleslash]

No, they were actually banned and you could get into trouble - in theory (like I said, the law was never really enforced, the worst trouble you could get into in practice was a jobworth phone engineer coming over to install a line, spotting such an item, and refusing to do their job) for merely hooking up such a device.

The "Red sticker" (a requirement for unapproved devices) actually had the words "PROHIBITED from direct or indirect connection to any telecommunication system run by British Telecommunications. Action will be taken against anyone so using such apparatus" on it. (the specific reference to BT is because they were the phone company at the time, it was easier to mention them by name than to put in some vague reference to regulated public telecommunications systems.)

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[sameyeam]

Damn BT...you have to hand it to them though, they sure know how to cover their arses :-)

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[hoofie]

You haven't a clue what you are talking about. I DO have an Electrical Engineering Degree, but I would still defer to the time-served electrician any day of the week on most things. An Engineering Degree teaches you lots of theory, but very little practice in general.

Re:Sounds like Pro-Union Legislation

[walt-sjc]

You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Gee thanks. I think I do. Please post proof that I am wrong. Just because your EE program was all theory and nothing practical does not mean that ALL EE programs are that way. There is nothing an electrician does or knows that can't be taught in a 1 year vo-tech program.

RTFA

[Merlin42]

Did you actually look at the website you linked to?
On the front page it has a link to a pdf listing results from the 2004 inspections / audits. I think it was something like 600 inspections and 400 audits.

The site has gone down now and I closed acrobat reader so I can't find the exact info.

Re:RTFA

[cdrudge]

So because they do few inspections/audits, it's ok to break the law/regulation?

Who paid them off?

[DamienMcKenna]

Sounds like an unfortunate joke. Anyone can string cables together, license or not.

Or gain the licensing yourself and start doing some side work.

Damien

Re:Who paid them off?

[Wolfkin]

Yeah, Australia sounds pretty backward! Here in USianland, we only require licensing for *really complicated* stuff like hooking together PVC pipe!

Re:Who paid them off?

[MarkGriz]

Indeed.

FTFA:

Why do I need a registered or licensed cabler?

A registered or licensed cabler must follow the rules set out by the Australian Communications Authority (ACA). The rules make sure the cabling is done safely and that the cabler has the skills to do the job.

Cabling that is installed incorrectly can result in your phones, faxes, Internet or alarm systems not working properly. Faulty cabling can also increase the risk of safety hazards such as electrocution.

Phones not working properly... Oh, the horrors!

And the risk of electrocution??? Sure, if you wired your network into the electrical panel.

I see nothing wrong with requiring a licensed electrician to do the AC wiring in your house, but phone/network wiring is a bit extreme.

If the original quote was high, the OP should get a few more quotes for comparison.

Re:Who paid them off?

[WeblionX]

Well, the phone system runs at 50 volts (100 on a ring, I think), so they could get shocked, unless they have a completely different system down there...

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

I agree with you on the data cabling, but as far as I'm concerned, the government needs to keep its nose out of my electrical wiring too.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Nutria]

we only require licensing for *really complicated* stuff like hooking together PVC pipe!

That's a distortion of the truth.

Repairs or upgrades (homeowners or handymen repairing a sink, replacing a toilet, etc), don't need a licensed plumber.

You only really need a licensed plumber for projects for which require a building permit, and thus a county/city building inspector to sign off on the work.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Nutria]

but as far as I'm concerned, the government needs to keep its nose out of my electrical wiring too.

Do you have a clue as to why building & electric codes are necessary?

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

To protect the profits of unions.

Re:Who paid them off?

[walt-sjc]

In the US, Homeowners can do their own wiring if they get it inspected and follow the code. I don't have a problem with that. What I DO have a problem with, is that I can't work on my parent's house, get it inspected, etc. What's the difference?

It's quite simple. Protectionism by the unions.

Re:Who paid them off?

[tchuladdiass]

Actually, it's to protect the future owner of the structure.

Re:Who paid them off?

[yasth]

Differing grounds can shock or kill you. (that is one of the reasons network cabling between floors is generally done with fiber). Of couse in a small installation that isn't a big deal.

Honestly, running cable is tiring, often sweaty, and really boring work. I would just budget for it, or set up a mesh network of wireless.

Re:Who paid them off?

[schon]

What I DO have a problem with, is that I can't work on my parent's house, get it inspected, etc. What's the difference?

The difference is that you don't own the property.

If the homeowner does their own electrical work, and they screw up, the worst they can do is burn down their own property.

When you apply for a permit for your own property, you sign a waiver saying that you're capable of doing the work, and that you hold them harmless if you're a bumbling idiot who runs 220v through 26gauge wire.

If you're doing work on your parent's house, and you burn it down, your parents can go after the municipality for allowing someone who wasn't qualified to do electrical work on their property.

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

If they don't get a proper electrical inspection on the place before signing, that's their problem.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Tooxs]

That would only require an inspection, not a restricted class of labor.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Nutria]

If the homeowner does their own electrical work, and they screw up, the worst they can do is burn down their own property.

But then what if they sell it? How would the new owner know that un-inspected work was done?

Re:Who paid them off?

[bluephone]

"Measure twice, cut once." IE, do it right the first time.

Re:Who paid them off?

[schon]

If the homeowner does their own electrical work, and they screw up, the worst they can do is burn down their own property.

But then what if they sell it? How would the new owner know that un-inspected work was done?

Uhh.. maybe because when they go to look at it, instead of a house, they see a smoking crater? :o)

Seriously though, where did I say that there is no inspection done? You get a permit (required by law to do work on the electrical) an inspector comes to see that the work is done properly. Even if you're doing it yourself.

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

I agree completely, but getting the government involved is incredibly excessive.

Re:Who paid them off?

[bluephone]

For somethings, that's the only way to ensure citizens do the right thing.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Anonymous Coward]

so basically you have a bunch of people not getting permits, not getting it inspected etc etc etc.

all to protect unions.

eletrical is dnagerous if you ignore certain things.

but if you have a tiny bit of common sense and can obey basic principles, there is absolutely no reason you should have to be robbed by an "electrician"

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

Therein lies the core problem in our society. Too many people take that belief to the extreme, leading us closer and closer to a total nanny state.

Re:Who paid them off?

[schon]

so basically you have a bunch of people not getting permits, not getting it inspected etc etc etc.

all to protect unions

Sorry, but *what*?!?!?

Please explain how people breaking the law (by not getting permits and inspections) protects unions. I think your logic is pretty twisted.

As I said, (in most jurisdictions) you can get a permit to work on your own house without being a certified electrician.

if you have a tiny bit of common sense and can obey basic principles, there is absolutely no reason you should have to be robbed by an "electrician"

It would seem to me that common sense is in short supply around here.

Re:Who paid them off?

[tonsofpcs]

Yes, but low current.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Nutria]

If the homeowner does their own electrical work, and they screw up, the worst they can do is burn down their own property.

an inspector comes to see that the work is done properly.

But wouldn't the inspector see if you screwed things up?

Re:Who paid them off?

[walt-sjc]

Um, the inspector should make sure that the job is done properly. Ownership has nothing to do with it. As for "your parents can go after the municipality for allowing someone who wasn't qualified to do electrical work on their property" - probably not. That suit would be thrown out on the grounds that my parents KNEW that they were hiring an unlicensed electrician. They may be able to go after ME however.

The way this works in the real world is that people basically say "fuck the law" and do it anyway, and then the work ends up not getting inspected. Which is worse? Having a relative do the work and having it inspected or having the relative do the work and NOT having it inspected?

Over the past year, I've been rewiring my entire house. The previous homeowner had his clueless brother do a bunch of wiring. Needless to say, it was never inspected (I pulled all the permit info on my house) and was horrible. I would MUCH rather have the clueless brother do it, and then have an inspector come in and let them know that they did it wrong, and have them fix it, and make SURE it was right. As it stands, I have to fix it RIGHT, and it WAS a fire hazzard.

The inspection is really the key. I've had licensed electricians do really bad work before. Just because you are licensed does not mean that you won't fuckup and burn someone's house down.

Re:Who paid them off?

[schon]

an inspector comes to see that the work is done properly.

But wouldn't the inspector see if you screwed things up?

Yes, that's why I said that.

The problem is that the inspector doesn't come to supervise. You get a permit (which is good for 6 months or so), and do the work. When you're done, you call the inspector to see that it's done properly.

What happens if the house burns down between the time you start the work and the inspector comes?

Re:Who paid them off?

[schon]

the inspector should make sure that the job is done properly

Which is what I said.

Ownership has nothing to do with it

Wrong. Ownership has everything to do with it. If you own the property, you're allowed to do the work without being a certified electrician.

That suit would be thrown out on the grounds that my parents KNEW that they were hiring an unlicensed electrician.

Yeah, just like the SCO suit was thrown out for lack of evidence, and the McDonald's suit was thrown out because the granny opened the coffee in the car.

The way this works in the real world is that people basically say "fuck the law" and do it anyway, and then the work ends up not getting inspected.

Yup. And when the house burns down because of it, the municipality isn't on the hook for it.

Which is worse? Having a relative do the work and having it inspected or having the relative do the work and NOT having it inspected?

From the point of view of the municipality, the latter is better, because it covers their ass. In case you hadn't noticed, the municipality is the ones that regulate the building codes, and issued the permits - so it makes sense that it's skewed in their favour.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is bull, I have never been shocked when a phone was ringing even though I had the plug in my hand and was in contact with the metal part of the plug.

Re:Who paid them off?

[1u3hr]

I agree with you on the data cabling, but as far as I'm concerned, the government needs to keep its nose out of my electrical wiring too.

If it's your house, and you're living in it, I understand your logic. But if you're renting an office or home, and discover a problem with the wiring (such as it being 50 years old and had polarity reversed on random power points) at least if there is a legal standard you can pressure the landlord to fix it. I worked in an office that was like that, the fuseboxes were obsolete and no fuses that fit were available, so they were mostly wired straight through with copper. When you think of how a cheap landlord will save costs wherever possible, it's not enough to leave it up to the owner's conscience.

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

What happens if the house burns down between the time you start the work and the inspector comes?

Then the house burns down between the time you start the work and the inspector comes. What's your point?

The reason for the inspection is to protect future buyers. If I buy a house from someone, I'd want to know that the electrical work is of good quality. One way (not necessarily the best way) is to have post-installation inspections. I can check city/county records for those when I do the title search.

Re:Who paid them off?

[erlenic]

I was just referring to home installations. Commercial settings are a different case, with public safety being an issue that could override privacy.

Re:Who paid them off?

[walt-sjc]

Wrong. Ownership has everything to do with it. If you own the property, you're allowed to do the work without being a certified electrician.

WTF? No shit sherlock, that's what this is all about... I'm not talking about what the current (broken and paid for by union lobbyists) law is saying, I am talking about what the law SHOULD be. Ownership has NOTHING TO DO with the quality and correctness of the work, and THAT is indisputable.

As for comparing this with SCO or McDonaldl, well, SCO is a completely different case about contracts which does not involve a government agency, and it's not over yet. As for McDonalds, why didn't the health department get sued? Hmm. They should be looking out for us, and are responsible for regulating safety at restaurants, right? Where is the liability there??? Oh, gee, maybe it IS McDonalds responsibilty for making sure that the coffee isn't served boiling hot, just like it would be MY responsibilty to make sure that I did the work correctly at my parents house - regardless of whether it's inspected or not.

Anyway, the inspector could ALWAYS require homeowners getting permits / inspections to sign off liability due to the fact that an unlicensed electrician performed the work. Imaginary problem solved.

Lets address the real reasons here. Trade protectionism. Transparent as optical glass. Liability arguments are a smokescreen. Back to the FA, I have Never, Ever heard of a case where an ethernet or telephone cable started a fire.

Re:Who paid them off?

[Rick the Red]

That all depends totall upon where you live. When I was a kid in Illinois (a while ago, the law may have changed) if you did ANY work on your own house it would be condemned and you would be forced out on the street and the door padlocked until you paid a union member to at least inspect and approve your work -- and the inspection would cost exactly as much as just hiring them to do the work in the first place. It had nothing to do with building permits -- you don't need a building permit to replace a lightswitch with a dimmer, but you DID need to have a licensed (i.e., union) electrician do the work. Hooking up a dishwasher? Two union members needed, a plumber and an electrician.

Now I live in Washington state, and I can do any damn thing I want as long as it passes inspection (if a permit is needed). So, as I say, it depends upon where you live. Fifty states, fifty sets of laws. Plus DC. Plus Guam, PR, etc. Lots of jurisdictions in the good 'ol USofA.

Pay off your lawmakers

[linuxwrangler]

Seriously, this sort of regulation is generally passed in the name of "protecting" the consumer but in reality it is protecting the outrageous charges of the "registered cablers".

It happens all over. In California, IIRC, we still can't install plastic water supply lines in houses because they are "unsafe". Funny, though, that they seem to be safe in lots of other states. I'm quite sure that the donations from the plumbing contractors and pipefitters' unions doesn't come into play at all.

Our yacht club can't buy booze at Costco because the regulations require us to buy from a "distributor", not a manufacturer or retailor. At a informational meeting for club officers the ABC (alcoholic beverage control) spokesman was pestered with the question "why can't we just go to Costco?" and his rather amusing and refreshingly honest answer was, "because you didn't pay your lawmakers as much as the distribution cartel did."

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[Anonymous Coward]

[H]is rather amusing and refreshingly honest answer was, "because you didn't pay your lawmakers as much as the distribution cartel did."

And you call yourselves a yacht club?!? Get some more millionaires in there!

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[Xtifr]

While I think I mostly agree with what you say, imagine my complete and utter lack of sympathy for a yacht club that has to pay a little too much for their booze! Ooh, the poor little multimillionaires - my heart is bleeding. :)

Seriously, I think your point would have more impact if you used a slightly different example. As it is, I had to fight the urge to cheer for that distribution cartel you're complaining about.

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[ottothecow]

Many yacht clubs these days are not the hangouts of the rich and famous.

They focus much more on competetive racing which for some boat desgins (j105 for instance) does require an owner with deep pockets (not to say the crew--and thus the majority of the sailors--have those same pockets) but others (smaller boats or crewwing) can be participated in with a fairly low investment.

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[Alex]

Our yacht club can't buy booze at Costco because the regulations require us to buy from a "distributor", not a manufacturer or retailor. At a informational meeting for club officers the ABC (alcoholic beverage control) spokesman was pestered with the question "why can't we just go to Costco?" and his rather amusing and refreshingly honest answer was, "because you didn't pay your lawmakers as much as the distribution cartel did."

"The land of the free"

Alex

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[shaitand]

By my definition even the least expensive yachts could not be owned by someone who qualifies as middle class.

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[Anonymous Coward]

Legislation is being introduced to rename it to "the land of the fee".

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[ottothecow]

I'm not sure what you define as yachts, but yacht clubs service many of what I like to call boats.

Teenagers can be members while racing their laser or optimist dingy that they pay for (and their membership fees) with a part time job.

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[deadweight]

Many yacht clubs specialize in junior racing programs with boats that can be had for a few thousand dollars or the kids use the club boats for maybe a couple hundred dollars a year. Also the bigger boats need a lot of crew, so many of the members have no boat at all. This reminds me my yearly yacht club dues need to be payed. Time to break out the checkbook and cough up $40.

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[shaitand]

"junior racing programs with boats that can be had for a few thousand dollars"

Any kid with a possession that cost several thousand dollars is clearly a rich kid. Let alone a possession that is entirely a luxurery item. Although renting could offer a slightly more reasonable option.

"Also the bigger boats need a lot of crew, so many of the members have no boat at all."

Do they really give the help... err crew, membership?

Re:Pay off your lawmakers

[deadweight]

I guess everything is relative. Where I live you would have to have a hell of a lot more than an old boat worth $1500 to look rich, even if you are 10 years old. Most junior programs have a fleet of boats for the kids to use for a minimal fee ($50-$100 per year). Racing a larger boat requires quite a few people. Anyone with some enthusiasm and willingness to learn can usually get a ride. Some of the "upper crust" pay some of their crew, but most boats rely entirely on volunteers. Most would be quite insulted to be called the "help". There is no requirement to be a club member to wander the dock and look for rides. Since club hospitality extends to the boat's entire crew I suspect most of the non-owners don't see the need to join themselves unless they want to join a club that maintains a fleet of boats for members to use.

AU governments site down

[nberardi]

Looks like the AU government's website needs to be audited. They obviously don't have the bandwidth to handle a /. :)

One Word

[Deanasc]

Wireless!

Re:One Word

[Bastian]

A buzzword is not a solution for everyone.

Wireless would never work for a lot of people in my office. We have to transfer too many large files back and forth from the servers. Some of us are hurting on a 100mbit switched network and really wish we had a gigabit network. 802.11g would be nearly unusable, and 802.11b would shut the company down.

Re:One Word

[Martin Blank]

Sometimes you just have to make sacrifices in order to stick it to The Man!

Re:One Word

[walt-sjc]

Another word: bandwidth. Or lack of it with wireless. Bandwidth on wireless is like the local cable-modem segment - shared among all users.

Furthermore, wireless doesn't work well in practice for VoIP - especially if you want to use any encryption.

Re:One Word

[tonsofpcs]

You still need to somehow interface it to something that is not wireless, that generally involves wire, still requiring this (albeit outrageous) permit.

damn...

[Gaima]

...I hope that's not the case in the UK.
2 of us have just recently finished the 140 port setup in our new offices...

Re:damn...

[clickster]

This is Joe Union. We have reported your illegal cabling activities to the authorities. Taking a note from our RIAA fellows, you can avoid significant prosecution by simply e-mailing us the following: Name: Address: Phone #: Birth Date: Mother's Maiden Name: First School You Attended: National ID Number: Please e-mail all of that information to Foro Forscamoor at trustworthy@nationalbankofnigeria.com Thank you and God have murcy on you kind Sur.

Re:damn...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not. I've been checking the regulations recently for some work on my house.

Generally, you need to get the Building Inspector out to look at electrical work, or you can get a registered contractor to do some.

Low-voltage cables are exempt from this, as are extensions/alterations to existing ring mains, except in special situations (such as where there's water, or outside).

Generally, you can therefore do as much voice and data cabling as you like: it's not going to hurt anyone. If it doesn't work properly, that's your own lookout.

Lemme put on my Union Hat.

[clintp]

My father was a Unionized employee, and actually was part of the UAW hierarchy. He didn't believe it all, but since it was a requirement he had to push the propaganda. I can guess what it'd say:

*screws on hat tightly, to cut off circulation to brain*

"Union Cable Layers would have been trained as apprentices in this kind of work, and received whatever other training was necessary for local building codes, etc...

Your average Joe would do a slipshod job and your cabling would be sub-standard and not work as well. In addition, an untrained cable-monkey might lay cables in places that were dangerous to the rest of the building structures (across high voltage, etc..) and possibly causing disaster and lawsuits. You wouldn't want that, would you?

And if you even think of doing this yourself, expect to get a visit from the brotherhood of Electricians, Cable Layers and Egg Candlers Local 547."

Ahem.

Re:Lemme put on my Union Hat.

[davez0r]

wtf is an egg candler?

Re:Lemme put on my Union Hat.

[ResidntGeek]

One who candles eggs... duh...

Re:Lemme put on my Union Hat.

[Ykant]

An egg candler is a person that inspects eggs, originally by holding an egg up to a candle and looking through.

There was a time when this was a necessary position, as most people are loathe to break open an egg for their cake batter and pour in an embryo.

Re:Lemme put on my Union Hat.

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a time when this was a necessary position, as most people are loathe to break open an egg for their cake batter and pour in an embryo.

It's still done today, but the problem was never embryos, only blood spots. Eggs with spots are sold for use in ready made cake mixes, etc.

Applies to cabling companies only (?)

[LordEd]

I grabbed this line before the site got /.ed:

"The Cabling Requirements for Business Code requires cabling businesses to ensure that cablers working for them do cabling work that meets the CPRs." (my bold)

So the way it sounds to me is that if you are a cabling business and either provide poor quality or subcontract poor quality work, you can be fined for it.

Plenum

[bloosqr]

The reasoning is that most people do not realize cabling can be serious fire hazards. You can not use regular cat* cable when wiring up an office and/or house but must use plenum rated cable. Furthermore generic cables can have toxic side effects when burning. There is an interesting history of the use of pvc versus plenum here.

Also take a look at the cable faq and you will notice that it is very obvious that one really must be careful in installing the right type of cable w/ the appropriate firestops between floors (etc).

Re:Plenum

[Eil]

You can not use regular cat* cable when wiring up an office and/or house but must use plenum rated cable.

I don't think this is right... why then would they even sell non-plenum solid-core cable if it's not legal to install it anywhere? (Or do you just mean AU?)

I've installed plenty of cat5 before and to my knowledge the only place you have to use plenum cable (which sells for like 5x the price of normal cable) is where you run the cable through air circulation ducts or spaces. Most of the time, this means drop ceilings too since they often function as an air return. By law, you need plenum cable here because when regular cat5 cable burns*, it gives off toxic fumes, whereas expensive plenum cable won't.

Nevermind the fact that everything else that's on fire will give off smoke and toxic fumes, your network infrastructure will be burning clean.

* That is, from a fire started by something else. You would need some extremely unusual circumstances to cause cat5 to burn of its own accord.

Re:Plenum

[sribe]

You can not use regular cat* cable when wiring up an office and/or house but must use plenum rated cable.

No you don't. You need to use plenum cable when you run cable through a plenum. That's why they call it plenum cable. If you don't know what the word plenum means, maybe you should look up plenum somewhere.

Re:Plenum

[OneDeeTenTee]

You would need some extremely unusual circumstances to cause cat5 to burn of its own accord.

Like getting Slashdotted?

Re:Plenum

[tweedlebait]

IIRC, plenum cable does give off quite nasty toxic fumes when when subjected to flame but is more fire retardant and self extinguishing and I believe the gases are less flamable as well. This property is desired expecially in cable going through multiple floors where a cat5 'fuse' could circumvent all the other fire protection.

Actually...

[LordEd]

You must use plenum when wiring through air ducts/passageways in home/offices. The reason is that the regular plastic casing becomes toxic (as do many things when burned), so you want to limit that toxicity to a single room instead of across your entire building transmitted through air ducts. You can use regular cat for wiring that does not involve bridging floors or that goes through ventilation areas.

From the FAQ:

Plenum: Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning (HVAC) air return area -- mostly drop ceilings. Also below raised floors (where the underfloor area is used for ventilation).

Re:Actually...

[TykeClone]

The reason is that the regular plastic casing becomes toxic (as do many things when burned)

Things like carpet, furniture, electronics - just about the entire contents of the normal home or office.

Re:Actually...

[shaitand]

Exactly, the Plenum requirement gives job security to professional cable installers but most likely exists to give job security to fire inspectors and give a source of revenue to cities when violations occur.

Re:Actually...

[TykeClone]

I don't doubt that - it's just that just about everything else in anyone's home or office anymore will give off toxic fumes when burnt.

Quality work?

[jim_redwagon]

Did anyone else notice the fine job the 'registered cabler' did installing the RJ45 on page 2 of the brochure? That's quality, dead on center work there. ;-)

Re:Quality work?

[david duncan scott]

No, you see, that's why you need a Certified Plug Pusher to make the actual connections -- those registered cablers are just monkeys in hard hats!

Re:Quality work?

[DjReagan]

That would be a RJ11 (4 pin, not 8 pin like a RJ45)

Re:Quality work?

[Anonymous Coward]

RJ-11 connector has 6 pins, but usually only 4 of them are used.

My question is...

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

how does this compare to legislation in other parts of the world?

In a word, badly. In another word, Fsked.

I've done all my phone and network cable, about 1200 feet, myself and generally wouldn't trust someone else to do it. Sorry.

Get registered.

[azav]

How much would it cost you to become a registered cabler?

Re:Get registered.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia, you must do a six month course at TAFE to get your "competency" and then actually get a job with a cabling company (within two years) before you can have the actual license itself. I think I have about six months before my competency runs out, but the job I have beats cabling hands down so I guess it will have to lapse.

Asked someone once about the price...

[actor_au]

...of having a full LAN installed in my house(four-five outlets, one hub on a one story building with plasterwood walls(I think, I know they aren't solid brick)) he said about $700 and it would take about 2 days.

I went and bought some wall mounts, screws, sockets etc, stole some cable from an industrial site(they were junking it and the guy on guard just let me take it before anyone asks) then sent my younger, and thinner, brother up into the roof to drag cables to the random holes I'd drilled into the ceiling inside the cupboards around the house, I had some problems with setting the wall ports(didn't know how to set the coloured wires right) and gave up on the project.

I left it for about five months, went back and using a newly acquired cable tester I set-up the sockets correctly, installed the hub and had a fully working LAN in about two hours.

Overall cost to me was about $70 and $20 for the cable tester which I gave to a friend as a Christmas present.
It took about six months from getting the cable to finishing the network but I believe I could have finished it in lest than a day if I'd given a damn about getting it done.

Essentially the asking cost was a rip off.

Another guy I know has a house they spent a summer networking, drilling through solid brick, hanging through air-con ducts and other random adventures until the ten of them and four other rooms were fully networked, their kitchen cupboard is four switches, two webservers/fileservers and some wheatbix no-one want to eat. It cost them a lot of spare time but other than a few drill bits, wall sockets and the cable their costs were non-existant, a cabler would have probably done it faster, but would have charged them at least $2000 for the work as well as a few hundred for the part.

I know about five other people that have networked their houses on almost no budget. Wires stapled to walls, running over rooftops and around the outside of buildings through walls and up attics.
Its a hobby and nothing anymore difficult or dangerous than putting up a painting and that you need some kind of certification for it is insane.

Re:Asked someone once about the price...

[nmos]

Ack! Maybe the AU is on to something :)

Re:Asked someone once about the price...

[zerkon]

the expense isn't a rip-off, its a lawyer tax... the other $610 is divided as such:

$50 - 2x$25/hour for labor
$560 - pay the company lawyers to fend off the lawsuits created when the shoddy install burns down your house

kill all the lawyers... then we'll talk

Re:Asked someone once about the price...

[DaveJay]

>Essentially the asking cost was a rip off.

Er, you were able to get the cable for free, which is a substantial cost of the project. You also were able to get the labor for free via your own actions and that of your brother, which is a substantial cost of the project.

So no, $700 for that wasn't a rip-off; that takes into account (a) insurance, (b) warranty and (c) the guy makes his living doing this.

Same with your friend; he drilled through brick, hung air-con ducts, etc. -- that's a LOT of labor, and unless you do it yourself, you have to pay other people to make it worth their while. After all, they don't get the benefit of the installation like you do. Take your current hourly salary and multiply it by the hours spent, and you'll see what I mean.

I say this as a person who ran his own cable over the winter; if I could have had someone else do it the way I did and only pay $700, I would have jumped at it in a heartbeat (phone, ethernet to three rooms, coax to one, all from a common closet, and the phone and coax running outside).

Re:Asked someone once about the price...

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot one key piece - you didn't place a value on your TIME doing the install. Let's say it took you an hour to do the install, and during that hour you missed your daughter score her first goal in soccer. How much would you have paid someone else to do the job so that you could be at your daughter's game? It's called oportunity cost - and it's something that most F/OSS users neglect when they say their software is cheaper to use, etc. Some stuff may cost money, but it works. I don't change my own oil anymore, b/c for $30US I can have someone do it in 15 mins. In 15 mins I make more than $30, so it's a win-win situation for me and the oil-change guys.

The guy would've charged you $700, and your network would've been live 6 months ago. You also didn't place a value on the time you went with another solution (or no solution, etc).

Re:Asked someone once about the price...

[shibashaba]

Was this a business or someone independent? Either way it doesn't matter, Let say 25 an hour for labour which would cover two inexperienced people, that's 400 right there. After materials, insurance and everything that a business would need that sounds like a good deal.

Lots of people have mentioned about building codes, you can't just throw wire anywhere you feel like it.
What if you had an old house, did you know the electric comming in off the powerlines could be just bare copper with no insulation? Touch that and your dead.

Running wire over rooftops and around outside walls is very dangerous, what happens if in a storm if it get's pulled off somewhere and then pulls some electric cord inside your house somewhere? Have you ever looked inside an outlet? It wouldn't take a lot of tugging on a cord to make a lot of outlets short out and just about any house built ever is built like shit and as quickly as possible.

How about a fire getting started because you threw some cord up on a hot water pipe or part of your heating system? That stuff will be alright for a while but the wire will get weaker and weaker as time goes on, not to mention what could happen if the Offices and other buildings are a hell of a lot worse, with 240 volts running everywhere. And lets not mention the hell you can possible make for anybody that has to come in and do any work after you.

Doing a little bit is alright, but it really can be possibly dangerous to try and do too much yourself.

I don't freakin' believe it.

[Xaker]

It is really hard for me to believe that someone cannot install their own LAN cable though the building themselves. The only reason electrical work should be licensed and checked is that it includes fire hazard as well as electricution hazard. LAN cables would be near impossible to set fire to themselves, and it is impossible to electrocute yourself with the tiny voltage that LAN cables carry. This must be purely a union fix on the market. Or something really stupid.

We had the same problem here, but that was also due to the fact that we're not allowed to make holes in firewalls by ourselves as students at our college. We had to pay guys something like $80/hr to run conduit from room to room for our LAN. They had to run patch cable through conduit for what reason? I understand that regular CAT5 has PVC coating (or drop line, dammit what is it called) anyway that can only be used, technically, from computer to computer or computer to wall socket. Any longer runs or runs through the ceiling or floor should be plenum (which is not toxic /flammable). Maybe this is what they are afraid of... even though the wire is not dangerous itself, it can pose hazards when mixed with fire. This may only be true with commercial buildings such as dorms and offices.

I never understood it because there bound to be something more toxic burning in my house than my CAT5.

In the end, I say you get the certification yourself! You might make more money doing that then you do in your current job.

Re:I don't freakin' believe it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"In the end, I say you get the certification yourself!"

Or just slip the inspector 100 bucks.

Re:I don't freakin' believe it.

[teddlesruss]

Just two examples from a long list of fiascos I've seen in the past:

- community radio station ran a lot of cabling along a corridor ceiling. One night it just collapsed because no-one had thought to tie the cabling to struts, it was just lying full weight on a suspended ceiling. Approved cablers know to do this.

- Friend running CAT5 through his ceiling, suddenly his TV stopped working. I yelled at him to drop the cable and lucky he didn't touch any cores - the CAT5 had sawed through a power circuit... Again, licensed cablers know not to cause themselves a $200AUD electrician's callout bill for repairing a mains cable.

And for me, the main reasons to use an approved cabler - if anything goes wrong in my LAN, if any user or piece of equipment is harmed by a cabling fault, I am absolved. And I didn't have to lift a hand to get the cabling installed...

Re:I don't freakin' believe it.

[brontus3927]

In the US (although local codes may differ), you don't need to be licensed or certified in anything at all to install anything. Any old shmuck can install new telephone, cable, electrical, plumbing, ethernet, etc lines and connect them to preexisting connections supplied by the utilities. Plumbing and electrical installations require a licensed plumber/electrician to inspect them to ensure they were done properly and meet all the codes. But armed only with Electricity For Dummies, you can legally rewire your entire house if you wanted, you just need a professional to tell you it works.

Unlicensed consequences.

[Anonymous Coward]

"According to them, they have the right to walk in at any time and demand an audit of your LAN, and if it was not installed by a registered cabler, you can be fined up to $13,000. My question is, how does this compare to legislation in other parts of the world? Also, has anyone in Australia ever been subject to one of these 'cabling audits'? Was it painful?""

I find that having an unlicensed surgeon installing hearts is a REALLY BAD THING!

10 years, 40 hours a week

[bluGill]

Well that is the answer if you want to do your own plumbing in Minnesota and live in a "community of over 2000 people". (I looked this up a few years ago) Apparently it takes that long to figure out that unpressurized water runs downhill, hot water pipes cannot be connected to cold pipes, and other such things that really are trivial.

Mind even after all this there are still inspectors to make sure the professionals are doing a good job. In my experience with professional plumbers the inspectors are required, and the 10 years are not nearly enough. You have heard the story about the doctors who gets his plumbers bill and complains that as a doctor he couldn't charge that much, only to find the plumber was a doctor until he found plumbing paid better. Well plumbing pays better because they need more training before they can work on their own because the job is so hard. (at least that is the only explanation I can come up with)

Re:10 years, 40 hours a week

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an old plumbers saying that is passed on to apprentices:

The three most important things to remember about plumbing:

Cold is on the right

Shit flows downhill

Payday is Friday

(I used to be a plumber apprentice)

Re:10 years, 40 hours a week

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

The way I heard it:

All an electrician needs to know to get a union card
1. 110 will shock you
2. 220 will kill you
3. 4:30 is quitting time
4. The boss is a sonnofabitch


The only thing a plumber needs to know:
1. Shit don't run uphill

Wireless

[skinfitz]

Use wireless and switch all your telephones to VoIP (perhaps using the excellent Asterisk).

Lets see them audit that.

Cost & LV licensing

[redelm]

What do you consider an outrageous quote? I'd expect about US$100/run, or US $4000 for your job. Less if uncertified, everything is short and can be gang pulled. More if spread apart or difficult to run.

Licensing is a different issue. LAN cabling is considered low-voltage electric wiring and various governments sometimes like to control it. Sometimes for the permit & licence income, sometimes to support guilds, occasionally even for public protection (EMI & plenum smoke hazard). I believe *.de requires licencing.

Re:Cost & LV licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in .de and I ca tell you a couple of things

a) In de you need a license to write a program. Any program. Including an Excel spreadsheet with one formula.
b) Here you need a license to ride a horse
c) You probably need a license to take a crap

But fuckem, I laid my own cable anyways and fully intend to do so in my new house too!

The rules here.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Ontario, Canada, the running of just about any kind of wire is governed by the Electrical Code the Fire Code and the Building Code. The two biggest issues are the penetration of vapor barriers and fire barriers. The flame spread rating of the cable is also a big deal.

Example - Running wires in a hot air heating duct may provide a path for flames to spread.

Other than that you can get away with almost anything since network cables are inherently current limited. If you have a buddy who is an electrician, get him to scope out the job as you intend to do it and warn you about the pitfalls.

But what if they are right?

[azav]

As I read all the responses, and remember that I do live in earthquake central (SF Bay area), I wonder, "what if the govt is right - at least in principle?"

Sure, plugging in cables is NOT HARD but yes, there are other things to worry about - fire shielding, run through an area people will not want to nail or drill into, and probably more that we don't know about. Stuff that once is mentioned, makes perfect sense but wouldn't be thought up unless someone mentioned it.

Hey, in California, I can see why you would need to be licensed to install PVC pipes. These earthquake things don't happen all the time but when they do, you'll want good bracing and give in your plumbing.

And then again, other parts of CA, do tend to get washed out with mudslides or decide to catch on fire on a semi yearly basis.

All I'm saying is that there's proooobably more behind the scenes that we're dismissing because we don't know about it.

It goes like this :

[ColaMan]

About 15 years ago, our australian telco (Telecom in those days) began to lose it's monopoly. Authorities realised that soon just about any joe from just about any company would be coming around ,fiddling with phone lines. But, oops. Telecom (now telstra) still owns the local loop of copper between the exchange and your house.... and the potential for fark-related-hilarity was obvious to most people.

What to do?

Austel, the telecommunications authority, decided to implement a licensing scheme. Basically , if any part of your network interfaces with the phone lines coming from the street, well, you need to be an austel-licensed cabler to do anything with it. Becoming an austel licensed cabler is not hard, any monkey can do go through the motions.

Perhaps you should investigate asterisk (as some people have mentioned previously). Get all your lines terminated at a patch panel, put a nice server in the cupboard and ethernet from there on out to IP phones and the like. It might come out at the same price at the end, but you'll end up with a much more flexible system. You'll also have the advantage of getting on the IP telecom bandwagon and probably save a heap'o'cash in the long run on your phone bills.

Re:It goes like this :

[Anonymous Coward]

"About 15 years ago, our australian telco (Telecom in those days) began to lose it's monopoly"

Do you think it will take another 15 years for that "its" to lose its extra apostrophe?

Re:It goes like this :

[lachlan76]

But do you still need to pay 12 grand to get a device which you want to attach to a phone line licensed?

Why wire line phones are only popular in USA

[Nutria]

Now, to give you some idea of the scale of what we're talking about, the state of the law in 1983 meant that you couldn't actually wire up a large building with a private phone system. You had to get the Post Office to do it for you. The Post Office argued that it had the right to insist on this, as anything else was a blatent attempt to circumvent its monopoly. Worse, if the system was to be connected to the PSTN (via a PBX or something), then miswiring could cause the entire telephone network to be destroyed.

If if takes 6 months for the PTT to get around to wiring your house, and then they charge you outrageous fees, why even get a phone? So, when cell phones come along that bypasses the PTT monopoly, you jump at the chance.

AT&T had a monopoly too, but they were (relatively) quick to wire up buildings and enable service, and prices were reasonable.

My wife has a cell phone (she's a "soccer" mom), but I don't go out much, and wire-line costs just as much as wireless, so why do I need one?

Re:Why wire line phones are only popular in USA

[Mattcelt]

AT&T had a monopoly too, but they were (relatively) quick to wire up buildings and enable service, and prices were reasonable.

That speed was really the only thing that kept Ma Bell from being split up long before it did. For decades, it was illegal to connect any non-AT&T equipment to the phone network because it could potentially "damage" the phone infrastructure. There are probably few here (and I'm not one of them) who remember that it was at one time nearly impossible to buy telephones, that they had to be leased from the phone company if you wanted to have one.

Indeed, quite a racket. Sounds like AT&T and BT were operating from the same playbook.

Re:Why wire line phones are only popular in USA

[markhb]

I remember those days; I was in college when the AT&T breakup was implemented. The phone bills in my area came with a punch card ("do not fold, spindle, or mutilate") which had to be returned with your bill. Telephones were not available in stores; you got them from the phone company, and you paid extra to have a second one in your home. Telco personnel did all the wiring, not just to the "network interface" (demarc) on the outside of the house... the interface was introduced during the breakup. What I do not remember is whether the first phone in your home was itemized on the bill, or included in the monthly basic service rate.

One point about the Western Electric phones that AT&T used to lease to customers: they were the most incredibly durable phones I have ever seen. Very durable plastic (earlier ones had Bakelite casings), they had decent-gauge steel bases and actual bells. After the breakup, AT&T ran some commercials touting its phones (which it was then selling), punctuated by a woman picking a receiver off the floor and telling the person at the other end "oh, I just dropped the phone."

This Old House

[St. Arbirix]

This reminds me of the time Bob Villa built his own house and I think aired some of the construction on his show. As soon as he got done the State of California stepped in and told him that since he didn't get any permits or professional electricians/plumbers/carpenters to work on the house they were going to have to condemn the place.

It's too expensive to be a general handyman for anything anymore.

Re:Sig

[Anonymous Coward]

4 degrees from Saddam Hussein. Biatch.

Hmmmm ... not quite

[jann]

I am an Australian Network engineer (LAN and WAN) and have done a lot of work in/with the telecommunications sector.

The requirement actually is "thou shal not connect anything to the PSTN" which is not austel approved and/or installed by a licenced installer. You can do anything you want with your LAN, you can do anything you want with your telephone cabling on your companies side of the PABX ... but you are not allowed to play with the PSTN side.

But, get your cabeling done by pros unless you know what you are doing. Ask yourself these quick questions:

Do I know when to use single core cable rather than 3 strand (and can I tell the difference between the RJ connectors for them)?
What is the maximim distance for an ethernet cable run?
Do I understand how to terminate cables and their wiring patterns?
Do I know how to test a wiring run?

If you didn't answer an emphatic yes to all those q's get the pros in. If you want to play at cabel monkey do it at home.

J

Re:Hmmmm ... not quite

[jann]

forgot to mention ... do you know how to update telephone frame documentation? If you screw it up the next guy will want to wring your neck.

And don't even let me begin telling you about the big company I used to work for who still had "twist and solder" frames in their basement ... with ecommerce websites running across internet connections terminated through them ... UGH!

And, yes, Austel can fine you and enforce compliance ... been there once (although not for cabeling) ... cost the company a lot to meet compliance requirements.

J

Re:Hmmmm ... not quite

[lachlan76]

I would have said single-core for permanent, multi-strand for patch/other leads which need to bend easily. 180m max for ethernet. Couldn't tell you the wiring patterns from memory, although I know that the pairs need to be balanced.

Not so sure about testing, I'd just use a cable tester, so I doubt that's right.

Not that I'm qualified or anything :)

Nonsense

[nixAddict]

I'm a data installer for a large state university in the US. The the local, state, and federal governments have no problem with "uncertified" individuals working with various data and voice cabling mediums.

Granted, we have licensed individuals to do all our AC work, such as running power to the racks in the data center, and more often than not they pull ethernet and fiber for us, because it's part of their trade, and keeps them busy. (Our in-house elecs are really nice guys).

When it comes down to the termination and actual connection of data and fiber, certification isnt required.

A note of the telephone side of the table -- same situtation. We have phone techs who are responsible for the installation, activation, and maintenance of the phone networks, again certification not needed.

We follow the TIA/EIA standards and the University has it's own more stringent set of rules on top of that regarding closet layout and like matters.

In my experience I have found that when we contract a job out in some instances -- when a new building or addition is in need of a plethora of data and voice lines -- the licensed contractors do awful work. Great, you're licensed, and insured...but that means nothing when you can't even count! (It's happened, really...). Sometimes they make the situtation worse and you have to spend additional resources correcting issues.

And I work in a public institution. Private business should be able to meet their data and voice needs as they see fit. Having a competent individual do the job is one thing, but licensing and the mandates you describe are overboard. It sounds like the government has its nose way to deep into your business. Most likely with pressure from unions to form such regulation.

Having a standard that says a cable that gives of toxins when burned in air spaces is a bad thing is one matter. Forcing you to rely on a paticular labor force to meet some basic needs is another.

Last I checked the risk of life involved in data networks is minimial to the installer, almost non existant to the end user. I'm sure technologies like Power over Ethernet (PoE) bring about new challanges and risks.

Bottomline, who's to benifit?

Damn politics.

Even that's bad...

[schon]

You only really need a licensed plumber for projects for which require a building permit, and thus a county/city building inspector to sign off on the work.

Where I live (Alberta), a homeowner can do their own electrical/plubming work, even for jobs that require a permit. You only have to have be licensed if you're doing work on someone else's property. The job still requires an inspector to sign off on it.

If you screw up between the time of getting the permit and having it inspected, about the worst you can do is burn down or flood your own property.

Note that any work on natural gas lines requires a licensed gasfitter, as a screw-up there can result in an explosion that could level your neighbor's houses.

Which (IMHO) is a pretty sane way of looking at things.

More on the problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Submitter here... only posting as an AC as when I go ahead and do all my own cabling I can claim ignorance if they do come round for an audit...

The ridiculous quote I got was around AU$20,000 for cabling 20 double outlets over 2 stories of a building. No ceiling or under floor work, it was all to run through ducting along the skirting and up a easily accessible space between the floors. I calculated at an absolute maximum $6000 for the raw materials if all bought brand-name and new.

I looked into what involved in becoming a registered cabler and it seems there is a 2 day course you can do, which is easy enough... but then you need to log 400 hours of work while being supervised by a fully registered cabler. No thanks!

jann, if you're correct then that's what I've been hoping all along.. that by putting my network behind a firewall, and my phone system behind a digital PABX I can say that it is not connected to the wider telecommunications network. From what I read though it seems that just the fact that the network was connecting to the internet means that its part of the telco network... I'll do some further reading...

I have done a lot of reading and research on laying the cables myself, and plan to do some more before starting the job.. but yes I can answer all those questions that jann asked

thanks all!

Home Wiring

[FiremanJoe]

OK FWIW my 35 cents. As a cableguy for 19 some years, I can tell you it's not that hard, anyone builing a house should slip in on the weeknd before they drywall and diy. Cost of materials less than 300 - 500 bucks US. Electricians typically here in the US run outlets and are charging 80-150 a outlet. Or a builder is including only 2 basic cable tv lines in the plan, which is so bogous. In some areas your local cable operator may be kind enough to come prewire it, I advocate strongly! Run home runs from each room with 3 items some rg-6 quad shield coax (direct tv TIVO will need 2 rg-6 into it), cat 5e line for phone, and a cat 5 or better netork, put all 3 in the same hole home ran to the basement panel where the utilities will come in, even tho wireless technology is come it's still nice to have a hard wired house, a drop in say a main halway for the printer fax copier. with a drop in every room and sometimes 2 in big rooms like living rooms or master bedrooms on oppsoite walls come in handy at christmas time. Put the cable modem or dsl or voip devices in the basement at point of entry then yu have maxiumum speed from the outside source. 1000' of cat 5 runs about 95 bucks, so do the math as a net admin for a drug rehab place we are spending 150 a run for a professional outfit to run them... not including extras like fishing a wall or floor. Theres a white paper I wrote on my site feel free to read.

Re:Home Wiring

[Euler]

I've heard horror stories that the contractor will rip out the cable and charge the buyer for any damaged studs/wallboard. The logic is that the contractor usually still owns all the material and can't accept the legal liability if the buyer screws up the work before the job is done.

That Sucks.

[mooreBS]

I put 5000 ft of CAT5E in my fathers new office; in exchange he paid off my car. Technically the local building inspector could have raised a fuss because I'm not a licensed contractor, but he never said a word. I'm not sure that an installer working with low voltage cable has to be certified in the US. You just have to use plenum rated cable or conduit in the walls and ceiling. Probably a good idea to get a contractors license as well. That or get hired by the general contractor (Dad hired me freelance).

Re:That Sucks.

[drinkypoo]

A contractor's license is specifically for contracting, which is to say that you can't bid an amount of a job without one, you have to be paid per hour an an employee of either yourself or whoever you are working for, and you can only bill per hour, not per job.

im licenced

[baton]

Well i am a registered cabler here in Australia, was quite easy to achieve. Even got the structured cabling and fibre optic endorcements too. Was planning on using this to get work with a cabling/electrical installer but then ended up getting work doing Web stuff.

So now i just help my mates wire up their houses propley. Great fun :)

2 more words

[Deanasc]

Multiple nodes!

Another advangate of pro cablers

[sakusha]

The cable pullers I hired always knew what EVERYONE in town was doing. They knew who was installing new computers, who had new facilities, and what was going on in new labs all over town. So hire a pro cable puller, offer them some coffee, and get strategic intelligence on all your competitors. Just make sure you don't reveal to them what YOU'RE doing.

Totally off main topic but my Karma can take a hit

[Deanasc]

In many harbors you have two choices to get out to your boat. It doesn't matter if you have a $1000 Cal 20 or a $3million dollar Trumpy. You can row a small pram that you lug back and forth to the water yourself. The other option is to join the yacht club for their launch service. Now to he odds of someone rowing out to a Feadship are very slim and that little 30+ year old sailboat probably is connected to one of those prams left tied the docks. But somewhere in the middle the guy who drives an 8 year old Corolla so he can afford a Beneteau 30 probably doesn't mind paying an extra few grand so he doesn't have to skull himself back to shore after PHRF racing on Saturday afternoon.

My experience with the ACA...

[Chuq]

Just over a year ago, myself and some mates ran some external cat5e from my house, to my neighbours house (two houses along) to join our networks.

We knew all the laws regarding separating from power, depth of trenches, what sort of cable and conduits etc. to use, so we did it. One of us had an open cabling registration, and five of the other six were in the middle of our cabling course, so legally we were covered there.

It worked great, I put up pictures on popular aussie geek site Whirlpool and thought nothing of it.

A couple of months later I had a call from someone at the ACA. They had seen the pictures and wanted to come inspect it. I thought we were done - I didn't think they'd fine us, but I thought they'd definitely tell us to rip the cable down.

As it happened the cable:
(a) was under 500m in length
(b) did not cross onto public property
(c) did not carry internet traffic

So it was all fine by them - and it is still going strong! Full story at my site.

OT: Your Sig

[ibennetch]

I doubt you'll find a 512 SODIMM in PC100 cheap...Crucial has a stick of 256 for $112 (they don't even have a 512 listed, but from their prices I'd guess a 512 stick would go for $150 or $200. Good luck, though.

Re:OT: Your Sig

[ottothecow]

I want PC133 which is a little cheaper (~90 for 512) but I'll keep holding out if I cant find something better.

Re:Totally off main topic but my Karma can take a

[deadweight]

I am a sailor and a pilot. Long ago I got used to the idea everyone thinks anyone who does either or both of those activities is filthy rich and deserves any kind of tax or fee that can be dreamed up. Of course rich people do like boats and airplanes too! Why not? They didn't get rich by being stupid either, so why should they put up with extortion by the liquor distributor cartel or anyone else?

We did in my Cisco class

[Spazztastic]

Well, in my Cisco class, we get C-TECH certified (im about to take the final for it) and we did the entire LAN in our technical school -- all the work. All the students chipped in and did it. It was a big project, done before I got in the school, but we still do cabling and 110 Block punchdowns, etc. It is much more efficient because you can put the jacks where you want, you learn while you do it, and you can do it on your own time. Students have set up LANs in their own houses, I just ran a few lines through my fathers house and set up some jacks, but I've never heard of anybody being fined in the US for doing it on their own.

Re:Totally off main topic but my Karma can take a

[Deanasc]

You're preaching to the choir here. I know for a fact that owning a boat doesn't mean wealth. I lived aboard mine for 2 years to keep from losing it. I had the choice of rent or the boat. I chose the boat. Those same folk who have no problem taxing pleasure craft would flip out if the cable bill went up $2. Unfortunately we live in a nation of people who think that if they don't do something it should be ok to tax others who do.

Re:Totally off main topic but my Karma can take a

[deadweight]

I used to run a marine electronics shop. When the "luxury tax" came online our gross went from about $1,500,000 t0 $500,000 and over half the techs had to be let go. People never seem to get it: Rich people are either smart or smart enough to hire smart accountants. They aren't going to pay your stupid tax. It's the "little guy" who can barely afford an old boat or ancient airplane that gets fsked.

No issues in Canada

[denis-The-menace]

For businesses, you might want to have it done for liability (read insurance) but the rate are low enough that it might not be worth the trouble to do it yourself for big jobs.

I remember doing the odd cable in a place I worked at. We just used plenum cable in the suspended ceiling in case it was used as a return for the ventilation.

As far as I know, you don't need a permit either way.

In government places, however, you don't touch the wires in the walls. It's a union thing...

Re:No issues in Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Not entirely true. The BC electrical code permits you to do work like this on your own, fully-detached residence, if the work's value is under $500. Any other cabling has to be done by a licensed electrician, including the same work if it's done in a duplex, condo, or place of business. (I'm an Electical engineer, btw).

But, nobody ever checks.

The problem with DIY data cabling is that it is possible to make some pretty bad mistakes with it, and it can be a fire hazard if done improperly. I've seen some pretty dreadful DIY jobs. The problem with doing it in businesses is that if the cabling is improperly grounded, you can introduce currents that can fry your electronic equipment; you might run it too close to a 347 V light fixture and cause injury to yourself, or if the wrong kind of cabling is used, smouldering fire can travel along the cable, and cause flame propogation to other parts of your home.

It's best to make sure that you're observing all of the local electrical codes when installing such cabling. Licensed electricians are familiar with the code, and it's their job to install in compliance with it.

Read Between the Lines...

[sasha328]

From the FAQs on the site:

...The rules make sure the cabling is done safely and that the cabler has the skills to do
the job.
Cabling which is installed incorrectly can result in your phones, faxes, Internet or alarm systems not working properly. Faulty cabling can also increase the risk of safety hazards such as electrocution.

It's like the building regulators saying your electrical wiring should be done by a professional. This is a "cover". Basically, if DIY and something goes wrong, the insurance company may not fork out the cash if they can argue that the "work was not fully compliant".
There is no one to stop you from doing your own cabling (or electrical wiring for that matter). I have done all these (installed additional phone sockets, networked a small office and insallted electrical wiring) and I am still not a licensed cabler! No one's knocked down my doors yet.

All this is in my own house. For an office suite, all I can say, is that there is a traditional middle eastern saying: give your bread to the baker (to bake) even if he ate half of it. In other words, get the professionals to do it. And for crying out loud, go get more quotes.

What about gas?

[rpjs]

Here in the UK, you need to get a registered gas fitter in to do pretty much anything to a gas appliance.

Makes sense to me.

"oh, I just dropped the phone"

[rpjs]

For Christmas my wife got me a reconditioned old 1930s or 40s handset made by Bell Belgium of all places. It's great, has a *loud* bell (which scares the living bejesus out of the cat every time someone called us) and weighs half a ton.

The other day I knocked it off the table. Not a scratch on the phone, but one of the prongs of the receiver cradle punched a hole in the TV remote!