I might be talking out of my arse here but if something is uder the GPL you cannot put in extra clauses just because you own the copyright. So what is stopping them from removing the copyright notices? Its not the GPL is it?
Some interesting points. Let me play devils advocate a little:
>> 1- The original IE team was disbanded. The code base has not been maintained seriously for *years*
So it may take people a little while to get into. But MS employ some very clever people here.
>> 2- Chances are this code base is ugly and huge, and we all know that IE is very buggy and non-standard compliant. Most of it was in the source leak that happened a few months ago - It's not that ugly (so I've read)
>> 3- Microsoft cannot allow IE to change every 3 months, and they cannot afford to start from scratch all over again.
Agreed about changing all the time, but as for cannot afford - plain wrong.
>> 4- Microsoft has a history of perverting standards to their own end. Not relevant to this argument. Because they have 90% of the Market they can make their own standards to a degree.
>> 5- Microsoft has lots of resources, but as we all know, putting more people on a late project makes it even later.
There is no suggestion that the IE update is late or behind schedule - longhorn maybe but not IE.
I think MS will come out fighting with a cracking browser that will be good enough to stop people moving to Firefox (until Firefox gets a major update anyway.)
>>Ummm, that presentation was created for the Esprit-Soutron partnership (no longer in existence for at least a year - when I first worked with them) by an employee of Soutron - admittedly probably on MS Office. U admit it - A client of yours used MS Office.
I'm not clutching at straws, you've been caught out again and again.
>> I'd also appreciate it if you didn't bring my clients into this by name.
The very reason why I don't publish a list of my client which can be associated with SlashDot! For god sake man use your noddle.
Now stop trying to split hairs. You are working for an entity who has a job of work to do with a huge UK user of office. So either directly or indirectly you do.
Now lets see if those clients really don't use office.
I use a screen reader that is a little slow so I have to tune it to read only what is relevant. I missed the URL. But since I now have it its an interesting read.
>> I don't use MS Office in my company (and neither do my current clients) >> Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
Government departments use MS Exchange for email (do you read the news?) and MS Word for document (but they have now learnt to convert to PDF for public release. In fact, the government are one of the biggest MS office users out there. (See http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/02- 03/0203579.pdf for details of £100 million savings over 3 years.)
So you're current 'clients' are one of the Largest users of 'Office' in the UK.
I've now decided you're not worth having a discussion with.
Any post that doesn't bend over and get buggered by the phallic symbol that is Linux will by default be moded Troll/FlameBait.
On the other hand, to be moded +5 Insightful just post something like 'Linux does this much better than M$ Windows' (Topic agnostic comment)
Is Slashdot really overrun only by morons who think that Linux is beyond reproach? For gods sake people Windows and Linux have great S/W written for them.
And look, I didn't even prefix my post with something like 'I use Linux but...'
Maybe over 10% of one or other section of users but not of everyone I don't think. But since you mentioned it I'll invite you to quote your source please?
>> I don't use MS Office in my company (and neither do my current clients)
You must be in some sort of time vacuum business together with your clients or have a very small number of clients. What is your business? What's it website URL?
>> If her idea of Office software is so specific to MS software, I don't want her working for me. You deliberately misinterpreted what I said. I said I wanted her trained on MS Office. I didn't say she would never use anything else or not have an open mind.
>> So your daughter may have two choices - work for a small dynamic company if her skills are portable - or become a cube-monkey at some mega-corp. if all she knows (and is prepared to use) is MS Office.
You are so full of crap! Are you seriously telling me that working for a big company is bad and a small one good and there is no other way to categorise a career? Small company best eh? Look how many of those go tits up? How about modifying your statement to:
'Your daughter has 2 choices: Work for a small company with few benefits, high risk, exposure to 'small company single client' syndrome which on average lasts 9 months or work for a large company with decent benefits that are more than likely to be around when you retire.'
>> If you know how a spreadhseet works you can learn the exact way to use Excel or whatever.
So train on Excel and if OSS ever takes off they won't have a problem? That way they are immediatly productive in Excel.
It just doesn't make sense, and never has, to teach kids skills they won't use in work.
When I was at Uni. we were all taught Pascal. I was finding I was having trouble getting jobs because C was what was required. OK, Once I got my first job it mattered shit but it took me a while to get a good job. It would have helped me to have had C.
Oh and OSS less costly for a school? Nope. At the moment most schools have a number of 'expert' Mums and Dads who can keep their site going for free. The one school in our area that has a Linux box cannot get support without paying. I'm wiping it next week to install Windows.
I was hoping someone would bite on this one but the lame Slashdotters are obviously taking a break today. But it does raise the point that not all people can be as clever as the next. There has to be room in society for everyone.
When I hear some being called thick, stupid etc I read it no different from a black kid being called nigger. Neither child can help being born the way they are and neither should feel that society values them less for what they are.
There are other skills to have in life than computing. Not everyone want to devote a lot of time to being productive with a computer - they want to spend their time on something else, say surgury? Just as some people don't give a shit how their car works, it just does. When it goes wrong they take it to someone to be fixed. There is nothing stopping them fixing it themselves but they choose to use their time doing other things - doesn;t mean they couldn't learn to fix it if they wanted to.
>> "No? Well we couldn't POSSIBLY teach you that.."
Actually its more likely that the response will be 'No? Shame, but we have another 20 people to see. We'll let you know - NEXT.'
All things being equal if you have a choice in employing someone who has the skill you have and someone who is capiable but lacking you choose the one who will hit the ground running.
Employers are not running a charity.
What the normal Slashdot crown seem to completely ignore is that not everyone has the superhuman brain power they have. For every computer programmer there are 100's and 100's of low-grade clerical jobs that are not won on the basis of how quickly you can learn new skills. They are won on the 'how quickly you can settle into your new job and be productive.' If you don't have the skill(s) they are looking for then don't apply.
Back when WP and Lotus were the 'in' thing a huge number of jobs were advertised asking for these skills. If you were trained on AmiPro or 'Excel' the number of jobs were limited.
Maybe it is not here to stay but I say train for MS Office until such a day arrives. Don't train for a package hadrly anyone uses yet (statistically insignificant in business anyway).
Ok, since I'm daring to disparage the almost blind assumption on Slashdot that OSS = good, I fully expect to be moded down but here goes.
When my child leaves school I want her to be able to get a job. If she doesn't know how to use the dominant office automation tool employer's use then she will be discriminated against.
Yes I know, if everyone... and when everyone... and how good it will all be when... and we should all take the moral high ground... But that doesn't change reality. MS Office is here to stay. You' not going to wake up and overnight have the majority of business change to OSS. Really!
I disagree. PDF is much more than just Windows. I think its used by more than just a few people because it is so universally readable on any device.
Don't forget that Windows already has a free viewer for documents in the Office viewers. So you can read any office document on Windows by just downloading a viewer.
Slashdot Mirror
I might be talking out of my arse here but if something is uder the GPL you cannot put in extra clauses just because you own the copyright. So what is stopping them from removing the copyright notices? Its not the GPL is it?
XP does not do this - it presents a big stop ico dialog with dire warning message.
Since when is it Microsoft's fault that people are duped into running this?
Anything that mentions Windows here on slashdot results in a barrage of 'Linux' this and OSS that and how wonderful Firefox is etc etc.
Well people, if Firefox ever reached the 90% usage that IE has exactly the same kind of scam would happen when a Firefox patch was issued.
Am I the only one here over 21 and not still at school?
He's spreading FUD. Say something enough times and people will start to believe it.
You have to ask yourself why Microsoft say this about google so many times? Its because the're scared.
All the little companies the've tried to squash should enter this. This really is the elephant man calling the ugly duckling ugly.
How on earth was this moded funny? This is the same joke that has been repeated on every 4th Slashdot post for the last 4 years.
People, slagging MS off just because you get a chance is a joke that has run its course.
Shutup, I'm eating this food and it tastes really good. How can something that tastes this good be bad for you?
Some interesting points. Let me play devils advocate a little:
>> 1- The original IE team was disbanded. The code base has not been maintained seriously for *years*
So it may take people a little while to get into. But MS employ some very clever people here.
>> 2- Chances are this code base is ugly and huge, and we all know that IE is very buggy and non-standard compliant.
Most of it was in the source leak that happened a few months ago - It's not that ugly (so I've read)
>> 3- Microsoft cannot allow IE to change every 3 months, and they cannot afford to start from scratch all over again.
Agreed about changing all the time, but as for cannot afford - plain wrong.
>> 4- Microsoft has a history of perverting standards to their own end.
Not relevant to this argument. Because they have 90% of the Market they can make their own standards to a degree.
>> 5- Microsoft has lots of resources, but as we all know, putting more people on a late project makes it even later.
There is no suggestion that the IE update is late or behind schedule - longhorn maybe but not IE.
I think MS will come out fighting with a cracking browser that will be good enough to stop people moving to Firefox (until Firefox gets a major update anyway.)
>>Ummm, that presentation was created for the Esprit-Soutron partnership (no longer in existence for at least a year - when I first worked with them) by an employee of Soutron - admittedly probably on MS Office.
U admit it - A client of yours used MS Office.
I'm not clutching at straws, you've been caught out again and again.
>> I'd also appreciate it if you didn't bring my clients into this by name.
The very reason why I don't publish a list of my client which can be associated with SlashDot! For god sake man use your noddle.
I confess ;) Much shame is brought on me and my house.
Now stop trying to split hairs. You are working for an entity who has a job of work to do with a huge UK user of office. So either directly or indirectly you do.
t ions/democratic%20services%20-%20supporting%20loca l%20councillors%20through%20it%20and%20im.ppt
Now lets see if those clients really don't use office.
See http://www.esprit-is.com/files/downloads/presenta
Nice PowerPoint presentation from one of your clients.
Caught out again.
>> Are you blind?
- 03/0203579.pdf for details of £100 million savings over 3 years.)
I use a screen reader that is a little slow so I have to tune it to read only what is relevant. I missed the URL. But since I now have it its an interesting read.
>> I don't use MS Office in my company (and neither do my current clients)
>> Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
Government departments use MS Exchange for email (do you read the news?) and MS Word for document (but they have now learnt to convert to PDF for public release. In fact, the government are one of the biggest MS office users out there. (See http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/02
So you're current 'clients' are one of the Largest users of 'Office' in the UK.
I've now decided you're not worth having a discussion with.
Any post that doesn't bend over and get buggered by the phallic symbol that is Linux will by default be moded Troll/FlameBait.
On the other hand, to be moded +5 Insightful just post something like 'Linux does this much better than M$ Windows' (Topic agnostic comment)
Is Slashdot really overrun only by morons who think that Linux is beyond reproach? For gods sake people Windows and Linux have great S/W written for them.
And look, I didn't even prefix my post with something like 'I use Linux but...'
Mods, do your stuff to me.
Maybe over 10% of one or other section of users but not of everyone I don't think. But since you mentioned it I'll invite you to quote your source please?
If there is one thing we should know by now is when MS thinks it is coming under pressure it will unleash the attack dogs.
Anyone who thinks that IE will never be as good as Firefox is very very naive. Just as MS need to innovate to survive so does OSS.
>> I don't use MS Office in my company (and neither do my current clients)
You must be in some sort of time vacuum business together with your clients or have a very small number of clients. What is your business? What's it website URL?
>> If her idea of Office software is so specific to MS software, I don't want her working for me.
You deliberately misinterpreted what I said. I said I wanted her trained on MS Office. I didn't say she would never use anything else or not have an open mind.
>> So your daughter may have two choices - work for a small dynamic company if her skills are portable - or become a cube-monkey at some mega-corp. if all she knows (and is prepared to use) is MS Office.
You are so full of crap! Are you seriously telling me that working for a big company is bad and a small one good and there is no other way to categorise a career? Small company best eh? Look how many of those go tits up? How about modifying your statement to:
'Your daughter has 2 choices: Work for a small company with few benefits, high risk, exposure to 'small company single client' syndrome which on average lasts 9 months or work for a large company with decent benefits that are more than likely to be around when you retire.'
Think before you post!!
>> If you know how a spreadhseet works you can learn the exact way to use Excel or whatever.
So train on Excel and if OSS ever takes off they won't have a problem? That way they are immediatly productive in Excel.
It just doesn't make sense, and never has, to teach kids skills they won't use in work.
When I was at Uni. we were all taught Pascal. I was finding I was having trouble getting jobs because C was what was required. OK, Once I got my first job it mattered shit but it took me a while to get a good job. It would have helped me to have had C.
Oh and OSS less costly for a school? Nope. At the moment most schools have a number of 'expert' Mums and Dads who can keep their site going for free. The one school in our area that has a Linux box cannot get support without paying. I'm wiping it next week to install Windows.
>> She uses linux now.
Lets hope she is clever enough to use Linux. Otherwise she'll have to use Windows.
I was hoping someone would bite on this one but the lame Slashdotters are obviously taking a break today. But it does raise the point that not all people can be as clever as the next. There has to be room in society for everyone.
When I hear some being called thick, stupid etc I read it no different from a black kid being called nigger. Neither child can help being born the way they are and neither should feel that society values them less for what they are.
There are other skills to have in life than computing. Not everyone want to devote a lot of time to being productive with a computer - they want to spend their time on something else, say surgury? Just as some people don't give a shit how their car works, it just does. When it goes wrong they take it to someone to be fixed. There is nothing stopping them fixing it themselves but they choose to use their time doing other things - doesn;t mean they couldn't learn to fix it if they wanted to.
>> "No? Well we couldn't POSSIBLY teach you that.."
Actually its more likely that the response will be 'No? Shame, but we have another 20 people to see. We'll let you know - NEXT.'
All things being equal if you have a choice in employing someone who has the skill you have and someone who is capiable but lacking you choose the one who will hit the ground running.
Employers are not running a charity.
What the normal Slashdot crown seem to completely ignore is that not everyone has the superhuman brain power they have. For every computer programmer there are 100's and 100's of low-grade clerical jobs that are not won on the basis of how quickly you can learn new skills. They are won on the 'how quickly you can settle into your new job and be productive.' If you don't have the skill(s) they are looking for then don't apply.
Back when WP and Lotus were the 'in' thing a huge number of jobs were advertised asking for these skills. If you were trained on AmiPro or 'Excel' the number of jobs were limited.
Maybe it is not here to stay but I say train for MS Office until such a day arrives. Don't train for a package hadrly anyone uses yet (statistically insignificant in business anyway).
Maybe your child is very bright but 50% of our kids that leave school are of less than average intelligence.
I say equip them with the skills required by employers and we give them a better chance of a leg up in life.
For the top 10% of kids it doesn't matter what u teach them they will acquire the skills they need by themselves.
Ok, since I'm daring to disparage the almost blind assumption on Slashdot that OSS = good, I fully expect to be moded down but here goes.
... and how good it will all be when... and we should all take the moral high ground... But that doesn't change reality. MS Office is here to stay. You' not going to wake up and overnight have the majority of business change to OSS. Really!
When my child leaves school I want her to be able to get a job. If she doesn't know how to use the dominant office automation tool employer's use then she will be discriminated against.
Yes I know, if everyone... and when everyone
I want my child to learn on MS Software.
I disagree. PDF is much more than just Windows. I think its used by more than just a few people because it is so universally readable on any device.
Don't forget that Windows already has a free viewer for documents in the Office viewers. So you can read any office document on Windows by just downloading a viewer.
People will see this for what it is.