With software that can do long distance meetings, and share files and photos, it would be a great business tool for brainstorming sessions, project planning, etc.
So this entire thread is something of a small "fund me!!!" rant delivered even before Columbia's embers have cooled?
> And public-relations is the real goal of the space program, right?
It may well be, but it's money well spent, and I think the vast majority of Americans would agree.
Anyway, to play the devil's advocate for a while, let me hope that the US dumps its manned spaceflight program, and focuses on other things. Sooner or later, it'll find the Red Chinese flag waving on the moon, because that's a nation that still willing to take risks, that feels it has a lot to prove, and (this troubles me, though with 1e9+ people maybe their way of looking at it varies) considers a death or two in advancing their nation worth the price.
Ultimately, advancement comes to those willing to take risks. I don't think we should _not_ spend on computer research; I also think it would be great if we could spend some more money on research to find a safer, cheaper way to get to low earth orbit. The 'big picture' here is that computer research, advanced launch techniques, etc are means to an end: the end is to put men in space, and do so reliably.
By the same logic, the search for the new world should have taken place with ships populated by Moors
Completely bizarre! No comparison like that makes sense at all. (Ignoring, of course, the archaic idea that some races' lives are less valued, because that's not what you meant)
The comparison does make sense -- you consider a robot to be expendable today, and the aristocracy considered Moors expendable in the middle ages.
Some races' lives were less valued in that period (and wrongly so! -- from that perspective, we are in a better time now), and moors and slaves were among them. Not recognizing this fact would be carrying political correctness too far.
What does this have to do with robots? Well, if robots are intelligent enough to explore new worlds, I'd say denying them the same rights that we once denied moors would be plain wrong. And if you say the robots we'll send up will fancier versions of the Mars Pathfinder (i.e., machines that have no real intelligence), then I don't think they can effectively do much beyond take measurements.
"the search for the new world should have taken place with ships populated by tough, sailing men, because obviously it was too dangerous for civilized thinkers and women to roam the seas"
Yes, and the quest for space should also take place with ships populated with tough, educated men and women who know what risks they are taking. Which is exactly what happens today.
The first shuttle crew were pioneers. Maybe even the 12th crew. But there have been hundreds of flights since then. Those guys? Truckdrivers
Not sure if you're equating the STS-107 crew with truckdrivers, but if you are -- crap. I'd like to see the a UPS delivery guy qualify for an STS mission (i.e. if anything remains of STS after this). It's true that that the media made shuttle launches look routine, but your assertion that astronauts on the first n launches were pioneers and the rest were not is way off the mark.
The benefit:cost ratio for advancements in robots and computation simply dwarfs anything astronauts can give us
Sending a guy into space is an engineering problem: solvable. Creating intelligent robots is something we don't even know is possible: it's a hard problem. Because, of course, we do not understand the nature of intelligence itself. Are you proposing that we ossify on Earth until AI researchers can pull a miracle out of their hats? (If you do, you must be an AI researcher;-))
The one thing we could do here on earth (as another poster mentioned) is Biosphere-style experiments. Biosphere1 didn't work well enough, IIRC. We'll need to show it works flawlessly before settlements on the moon and mars are practical.
We should fork the research into 2 branches: The space element: developing rocket boosters, atomic engines, and robot-drones to perfect interplanetary travel techology. Once the robots have managed to erect a powerplant and radio array on the moon's surface, then we can start to build habitats
By the same logic, the search for the new world should have taken place with ships populated by Moors (north africans, IIRC) and slaves; because obviously it was too dangerous for any civilized European to roam about in the seas that border the edge of the world; better use expendable labour, eh?
Today, seven brave people died. I mourn for them, but I also know all went willingly, knowing what the risks were. They knew they were pioneers, and that not all pioneers return home safe. They are heroes not because they died, but because of the choices they made.
While I'm not saying we throw caution to winds, I do say that sitting pretty on Earth waiting for robots to solve our problems* is not the solution. Brave men who took chances shaped the American west, and they will do so in space once again!
* eerie: reminds me of Asimov's "The Robots of Dawn". In the book, there were two waves of human forays into space: one robot-aided, and one purely human powered. Since robots are nowhere as smart as we'd like 'em to be (read Penrose's "the emperor's new mind" for why AI may never make it), I guess it's up to us humans!
> More precisely, manned space travel isn't worth the risk
There is no reward without risk. You want the benefits of colonization of space, with none of the risks. (Very European statist attitude imho) What if Colombus had been told to 'simulate' his voyage on the shores of Lake Geneva?
Space is a unique environment, you don't know what can go wrong unless you actually go there.
Yes, she was an American (American-Indian^W Indian-American, if you must), an immigrant who earned a PhD and qualified as an astronaut, all in one decade or so. If that's not a sign of a country doing something right, I don't know what is.
I think this is clear evidence that, for talented people, America will always be the land of opportunity. Of course, most of the slobs on on Slashdot who bitch and moan about how the country is going to the dogs would probably not "get it".
> The indian version, really a reprint for sale only in India, sold at prakashbooks.com is offered at Rs. 276.50 (about $5.78)
Hmm... the O'Reilly books in India are far cheaper than the American versions too. But the quality? Incidentally, in India, L'Oréal, Kellogs, Sony...etc cost much less than equivalent international prices, but almost all these companies cut corners in packaging, etc. [rant]In Sony's case, the quality of the product too[/rant].
In the end, I firmly believe you *do* get what you pay for. Whether the things that you don't get matter to you (in Kellogs and L'Oréal's cases, you lose out on the fancy packaging, for example).
Take a look at how much the average American consumes (in terms of food, natural resources, etc) and pollutes. Can you imagine if every citizen of India and China did the same?
Indians in their 20s today have parents who recollect a time India couldn't produce enough food (1950s), and had to depend on charity (credit where credit is due: the US probably provided the largest chunk of food aid to India, although the quality of the food -- mostly grain -- was not very good) or imports. Indians in their 20s would also have grandparents who would remember a time (1930s, 40s) when *millions* (yes, millions) of Indians died in famines even as the Brits (who then ruled India) did *zilch* to help.
The net result of all this is that, as an Indian who spends most of the year in Europe, I *flinch* every time I see people throwing away half-eaten meals. If you've ever heard the phrase, "eat your food, don't you know children are starving in Europe", you'll know what it's like:). I wouldn't worry about Indians getting into the whole conspicuous consumption thing for another 50 years. And if by then we haven't discovered significant new natural resources -- why, then, we're all going to go to hell in a handbasket anyway, so why worry:)
PS. Frightening thought: never in the history of the world has mankind faced a shrinking pool of natural resources. Never. All progress has predicated itself on continually new resources being found... the setting up the silk route, the spice routes, the new world... and now, we're done. No more lands to conquer.
Re:Spam only cost-ineffective with ISP-level filte
on
Plan for Spam, Version 2
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
The kind who are taken in by the stupidest spam tricks, like the "future spam" he describes (nonsensical but grammatical set of English text designed to slip past Bayesian filters, followed by a URL.) What kind of a moron would click on such a URL?
No kidding. Here's an example from my mailbox -- Moz's 1.3a spam filter didn't recognize this one. Note that I actually *know* people who write like this IRL.
Frank
You've gotta see this website: http://www.geocities.com/lordrings179/
I downloaded Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers and I'm now watching it on my computer. Picture quality is great and it was tottally free. They've got a whole bunch of other games and movies as well. Take a look. Also, please forward this email to anyone you think would be interested.
I currently use Mozilla's 1.3a Mail's Bayesian filter, and so far it's been very effective. However, for a lot of people who don't run their own mailservers (and hence cannot filter server-side) or are on expensive/slow dialup, the very act of downloading spam onto their clients is expensive. Also, spam wastes bandwidth, which does cost money, despite flat pricing models used by most ISPs.
I think it's sad that the no one from the IETF or the open-source worlds has gotten around to creating a better alternative.
> And by doing so, the "rich world" will eventually give away so much work that they will be poor.
No, the smarter ones in the richer nations will go to college, and learn how to make The Next Big Thing. Its the dumb ones that'll go to burger king.
It amazes me how many/.-ers think programming is some kind of pinnacle of human evolution and achievement. How many programmers did you see last time you saw Star Trek?
In your specific case (20 years experience), I'd say your experience alone will see you through. There *is* a market for good, experienced people -- see what the market wants! Chances are, the Indian company who got your last job could use a good consultant for code quality (the code quality of most Indian companies suck, for instance, although Wipro -- mentioned in the article -- is one of the better ones)
Scott, you actually make an excellent point, and one that a lot Indians (even a lot of educated ones) do not want to accept. I am from India too, and I'll add my two bits here --
Indian K12 school education is _amazing_ if you go to a private school. I was fortunate enough to. Most people who grow up in the Indian Middle Class milieu hardly ever know that a less-privileged underclass exists. Or they are aware of it like background noise on an AM radio transmission.
Indian K12 school education _sucks_ if you go to a government school. The kindest thing I can say about it is that at least it is (as mandated by the Indian constitution) a reasonably secular education, and not the Hindu equivalent of an Islamic madarsa. What sucks? Budgets, facilities, a lack of qualified teachers. Also the education is Indian-language based, not English-based, and that is the *real* kiss of death for the students -- kids graduating from these grow up to be uncomfortable with English throughout their lives; for them, English is a second language: they won't grow up to be Salman Rushdies or Jhumpa Lahiris; or even Vinod Khoslas. This makes them almost unemployable in private industry (unless they remedy the situation themselves by taking lessons at home) and dependant on government jobs, unlike their private school counterparts whose first language to all intents and purposes is en-in.
Indian undergrad sucks _except_ at a few institutions (IITs, etc, as another poster mentioned). Reason: very little choice in subjects, lack of trained teachers, equipment -- usually boils down to the budgets available. Curiously, Indian undergrad education (especially Sciences/Engineering) is always in English.
The literacy rate in India according to the 2001 census is 65.38%, even accounting for padding let us say 55% (note the male/female imbalance on that page, though). That's more than half a billion people, yes; but are those half a billion living life anywhere _close_ to how Ashish lives? Nope.
Out of my head, I'd say the Indian middle class is something like 30% of India -- 300 million, and about 15% (150M) belong to the middle income groups (MIGs) which actually _can_ purchase TVs, computers, automobiles, Windows licenses (wink).
Now, 150M is a large number; and it's very tempting to say that India has come a long way since the time it was a food-importing nation (today, starvation deaths in India are about as rare as extra-judicial in-custody deaths in the US: happens, but rare). Indeed the great thing about the last 10 years has been an expansion of the MIGs and the middle class in general.
But what about the rest? 750M is an even larger number than 150M. And they may have food, but basic sanitation, public health are all things that they've only heard of. If this was an Indian dinner-party talk, this would be the time most would roll their eyes, mutter "hopeless situation, forget about it", and walk away. The problem is, the numbers are so large, and the money available so small, that it's easier for most Indians to be in denial than to do something about this very sad state of affairs.
Also, the middle-class votes and is vocal. The "silent 750M" does vote, but is nowhere as vocal, and further is uneducated and have no idea of what good civic amenities mean, so it's easier for politicians to ignore them.
Anyway, sorry about this longish rant. But it touched a small nerve when I saw yet another oh-india-is-fantastic post. India _is_ very cool, because of a lot of reasons, but civic amenities like education isn't one of them.
Don't want to carry this thread off-topic, so folk who wish to tell me I'm totally and irredeemably wrong can go to my comments-enabled journal and comment there. Thanks (steps off soapbox).
Slashdot Mirror
With software that can do long distance meetings, and share files and photos, it would be a great business tool for brainstorming sessions, project planning, etc.
Guess which Microsoft partner just got screwed?
I guess Groove will soon end up like FrontPage at best and Corel at worst.
> > you must be an AI researcher
> Yes.
So this entire thread is something of a small "fund me!!!" rant delivered even before Columbia's embers have cooled?
> And public-relations is the real goal of the space program, right?
It may well be, but it's money well spent, and I think the vast majority of Americans would agree.
Anyway, to play the devil's advocate for a while, let me hope that the US dumps its manned spaceflight program, and focuses on other things. Sooner or later, it'll find the Red Chinese flag waving on the moon, because that's a nation that still willing to take risks, that feels it has a lot to prove, and (this troubles me, though with 1e9+ people maybe their way of looking at it varies) considers a death or two in advancing their nation worth the price.
Ultimately, advancement comes to those willing to take risks. I don't think we should _not_ spend on computer research; I also think it would be great if we could spend some more money on research to find a safer, cheaper way to get to low earth orbit. The 'big picture' here is that computer research, advanced launch techniques, etc are means to an end: the end is to put men in space, and do so reliably.
The comparison does make sense -- you consider a robot to be expendable today, and the aristocracy considered Moors expendable in the middle ages.
Some races' lives were less valued in that period (and wrongly so! -- from that perspective, we are in a better time now), and moors and slaves were among them. Not recognizing this fact would be carrying political correctness too far.
What does this have to do with robots? Well, if robots are intelligent enough to explore new worlds, I'd say denying them the same rights that we once denied moors would be plain wrong. And if you say the robots we'll send up will fancier versions of the Mars Pathfinder (i.e., machines that have no real intelligence), then I don't think they can effectively do much beyond take measurements.
Yes, and the quest for space should also take place with ships populated with tough, educated men and women who know what risks they are taking. Which is exactly what happens today.
Not sure if you're equating the STS-107 crew with truckdrivers, but if you are -- crap. I'd like to see the a UPS delivery guy qualify for an STS mission (i.e. if anything remains of STS after this). It's true that that the media made shuttle launches look routine, but your assertion that astronauts on the first n launches were pioneers and the rest were not is way off the mark.
Sending a guy into space is an engineering problem: solvable. Creating intelligent robots is something we don't even know is possible: it's a hard problem. Because, of course, we do not understand the nature of intelligence itself. Are you proposing that we ossify on Earth until AI researchers can pull a miracle out of their hats? (If you do, you must be an AI researcher
The one thing we could do here on earth (as another poster mentioned) is Biosphere-style experiments. Biosphere1 didn't work well enough, IIRC. We'll need to show it works flawlessly before settlements on the moon and mars are practical.
By the same logic, the search for the new world should have taken place with ships populated by Moors (north africans, IIRC) and slaves; because obviously it was too dangerous for any civilized European to roam about in the seas that border the edge of the world; better use expendable labour, eh?
Today, seven brave people died. I mourn for them, but I also know all went willingly, knowing what the risks were. They knew they were pioneers, and that not all pioneers return home safe. They are heroes not because they died, but because of the choices they made.
While I'm not saying we throw caution to winds, I do say that sitting pretty on Earth waiting for robots to solve our problems* is not the solution. Brave men who took chances shaped the American west, and they will do so in space once again!
* eerie: reminds me of Asimov's "The Robots of Dawn". In the book, there were two waves of human forays into space: one robot-aided, and one purely human powered. Since robots are nowhere as smart as we'd like 'em to be (read Penrose's "the emperor's new mind" for why AI may never make it), I guess it's up to us humans!
> More precisely, manned space travel isn't worth the risk
There is no reward without risk. You want the benefits of colonization of space, with none of the risks. (Very European statist attitude imho) What if Colombus had been told to 'simulate' his voyage on the shores of Lake Geneva?
Space is a unique environment, you don't know what can go wrong unless you actually go there.
Yes, she was an American (American-Indian^W Indian-American, if you must), an immigrant who earned a PhD and qualified as an astronaut, all in one decade or so. If that's not a sign of a country doing something right, I don't know what is.
I think this is clear evidence that, for talented people, America will always be the land of opportunity. Of course, most of the slobs on on Slashdot who bitch and moan about how the country is going to the dogs would probably not "get it".
> The indian version, really a reprint for sale only in India, sold at prakashbooks.com is offered at Rs. 276.50 (about $5.78)
...etc cost much less than equivalent international prices, but almost all these companies cut corners in packaging, etc. [rant]In Sony's case, the quality of the product too[/rant].
Hmm... the O'Reilly books in India are far cheaper than the American versions too. But the quality? Incidentally, in India, L'Oréal, Kellogs, Sony
In the end, I firmly believe you *do* get what you pay for. Whether the things that you don't get matter to you (in Kellogs and L'Oréal's cases, you lose out on the fancy packaging, for example).
> I am loyal to a country that provides... livable weather
<strike>India</strike> unless city == '?angalore';
Indians in their 20s today have parents who recollect a time India couldn't produce enough food (1950s), and had to depend on charity (credit where credit is due: the US probably provided the largest chunk of food aid to India, although the quality of the food -- mostly grain -- was not very good) or imports. Indians in their 20s would also have grandparents who would remember a time (1930s, 40s) when *millions* (yes, millions) of Indians died in famines even as the Brits (who then ruled India) did *zilch* to help.
The net result of all this is that, as an Indian who spends most of the year in Europe, I *flinch* every time I see people throwing away half-eaten meals. If you've ever heard the phrase, "eat your food, don't you know children are starving in Europe", you'll know what it's like
PS. Frightening thought: never in the history of the world has mankind faced a shrinking pool of natural resources. Never. All progress has predicated itself on continually new resources being found... the setting up the silk route, the spice routes, the new world... and now, we're done. No more lands to conquer.
I currently use Mozilla's 1.3a Mail's Bayesian filter, and so far it's been very effective. However, for a lot of people who don't run their own mailservers (and hence cannot filter server-side) or are on expensive/slow dialup, the very act of downloading spam onto their clients is expensive. Also, spam wastes bandwidth, which does cost money, despite flat pricing models used by most ISPs.
I think it's sad that the no one from the IETF or the open-source worlds has gotten around to creating a better alternative.
> And by doing so, the "rich world" will eventually give away so much work that they will be poor.
/.-ers think programming is some kind of pinnacle of human evolution and achievement. How many programmers did you see last time you saw Star Trek?
No, the smarter ones in the richer nations will go to college, and learn how to make The Next Big Thing. Its the dumb ones that'll go to burger king.
It amazes me how many
In your specific case (20 years experience), I'd say your experience alone will see you through. There *is* a market for good, experienced people -- see what the market wants! Chances are, the Indian company who got your last job could use a good consultant for code quality (the code quality of most Indian companies suck, for instance, although Wipro -- mentioned in the article -- is one of the better ones)
Indian K12 school education is _amazing_ if you go to a private school. I was fortunate enough to. Most people who grow up in the Indian Middle Class milieu hardly ever know that a less-privileged underclass exists. Or they are aware of it like background noise on an AM radio transmission.
Indian K12 school education _sucks_ if you go to a government school. The kindest thing I can say about it is that at least it is (as mandated by the Indian constitution) a reasonably secular education, and not the Hindu equivalent of an Islamic madarsa. What sucks? Budgets, facilities, a lack of qualified teachers. Also the education is Indian-language based, not English-based, and that is the *real* kiss of death for the students -- kids graduating from these grow up to be uncomfortable with English throughout their lives; for them, English is a second language: they won't grow up to be Salman Rushdies or Jhumpa Lahiris; or even Vinod Khoslas. This makes them almost unemployable in private industry (unless they remedy the situation themselves by taking lessons at home) and dependant on government jobs, unlike their private school counterparts whose first language to all intents and purposes is en-in.
Indian undergrad sucks _except_ at a few institutions (IITs, etc, as another poster mentioned). Reason: very little choice in subjects, lack of trained teachers, equipment -- usually boils down to the budgets available. Curiously, Indian undergrad education (especially Sciences/Engineering) is always in English.
The literacy rate in India according to the 2001 census is 65.38%, even accounting for padding let us say 55% (note the male/female imbalance on that page, though). That's more than half a billion people, yes; but are those half a billion living life anywhere _close_ to how Ashish lives? Nope. Out of my head, I'd say the Indian middle class is something like 30% of India -- 300 million, and about 15% (150M) belong to the middle income groups (MIGs) which actually _can_ purchase TVs, computers, automobiles, Windows licenses (wink).
Now, 150M is a large number; and it's very tempting to say that India has come a long way since the time it was a food-importing nation (today, starvation deaths in India are about as rare as extra-judicial in-custody deaths in the US: happens, but rare). Indeed the great thing about the last 10 years has been an expansion of the MIGs and the middle class in general.
But what about the rest? 750M is an even larger number than 150M. And they may have food, but basic sanitation, public health are all things that they've only heard of. If this was an Indian dinner-party talk, this would be the time most would roll their eyes, mutter "hopeless situation, forget about it", and walk away. The problem is, the numbers are so large, and the money available so small, that it's easier for most Indians to be in denial than to do something about this very sad state of affairs.
Also, the middle-class votes and is vocal. The "silent 750M" does vote, but is nowhere as vocal, and further is uneducated and have no idea of what good civic amenities mean, so it's easier for politicians to ignore them.
Anyway, sorry about this longish rant. But it touched a small nerve when I saw yet another oh-india-is-fantastic post. India _is_ very cool, because of a lot of reasons, but civic amenities like education isn't one of them.
Don't want to carry this thread off-topic, so folk who wish to tell me I'm totally and irredeemably wrong can go to my comments-enabled journal and comment there. Thanks (steps off soapbox).