Slashdot Mirror
MS Proposes Disclosing Windows Source To India
raghuram writes "Interesting news from Economic Times of India, I found an interesting story, Microsoft Planning to Share Code with India." He excerpts from that article: "Microsoft has already made a proposal to the ministry of information technology (of India) for sharing the Windows source code with one government body. The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government officials. Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux operating system as the latter's source code is free and downloadable from the internet."
One wonders if this is a precedent being set, or if this is just a bid to get into the good graces of what is arguably the current largest current producer of software developers (and cheap ones, too)?
Cynical, I know...
I give them 6 hours before the source is leaked and we can peruse (and be horrified) at our leisure.
Dyolf Knip
Does this remind anyone else of the girl behind the bushes who'd promise to show you hers if you let her see yours, but never quite followed through?
Even Jesus hates listening to Creed.
It sounds like Microsoft is running scared now. They realise that India is a powerhose because it has way more people (population) than the United States.
India seems to be tilted toward linux right now and if the linux movement there gets into full swing, the momentum will be very, very hard for Microsoft to stop.
I hope the Indians look to the long terms effects of the windows and linux paths, as opposed to short terms benefits.
Sounds like they're pulling the old "Shared Source" == "look but don't fix^H^H^H touch" scam on them.
1. Monopolize
2. Give source to India
3. ??????
4. Profit
And how much do you want to bet some of it will end up in the next kernel release?
I sincerely doubt that more than a few thousand lines of source will be released to India. Proprietary functions will most likely remain just that, proprietary functions.
Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!
I do not feel that this is a smart move for a company that cares about protecting it's source. Piracy and illegal computer activity are densest in asia, and india is close to china, the piracy capital of the world. Microsoft's NT code and interface code would be gold in the hands of one of their rivals, such as Apple, and that could give the competition quite a boost.
I feel MS should be more careful with their products, free software would deffinately be more appropriate for piracy-rampant asia. go linux!
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
Bah! I didn't notice that there were two links in the story, one with the correct link already present. Sorry!
to the rabid zealots which infest our society.
To whom it may concern:
Attention with regards to Microsoft's commercial dignity with respects to India, or any country, has absolutely zero positive impact on the technological community, or so-called free software campaign. It does nothing to help. Nothing at all. No one here is rounding up warriors for the Holy crusade against the Bill Gates - instead, you masturbate to the foolish fantasies that by reading and rallying behind a socio-political propaganda bullshit site you are somehow helping win stated battle. You aren't. Your fantasy is, quite frankly, a delusional mindtrip that means dick when it comes down to it. KDE sucks. GNOME sucks. And they are not even a unified system! They both suck, separately! This is not a working system, regardless of the amount of software errors. Code is not everything, if your product does not provide the service it needs to, efficiently, and intelligently, it WILL NOT SUCCEED, regardless of the supposed lack of bugs or what have you.
It occurs to me why I even try to explain this to the zealots. Yes, you are zealots. Pitiful, worthless, stupid zealots. Instead of working on a better system you praise the broken one, and denounce the only system which can actually acomplish what people need it to accomplish at the present day. Stop prasing your broken system, and get off your lazy, fat asses and make a better product.
I'm tired, and that's all I'm going to say. Time to go back to chatting it up on instant messenger.
Sincerely yours,
Ricky
We wave the flag of freedom as we conquer and invade.
check here for more information.
These same people are releasing an internation version of Windows for home users.
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
Sweet: If Windows source is made available in India and becomes available worldwide.
Sour: If Windows source is already available to selected developers right here at home, why hasn't someone leaked it?
My understanding of "Shared Source" was that Microsoft shows you theirs if you promise not to tell what it looks like. I naturally assumed that with the code being such a closely held secret, that it would be on the newsgroups before you could say groups-dot-google-dot-com.
But then, it may just be my ignorance showing... I'm just a VB coder staying away from the bleeding edge -- in order to provide my clients with code that works the same way each time.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't fall for that MS crap-trap. They might give you the source, but with a shit-load of draconian circumstances and catches that will make it unuseable.
Even if they do give India the source, it'll only be temporary -- for now, to prevent them from switching to Linux. Once India is dependant on MS, it'll be no more source and no more cheap-deals for them.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
It's important to use the "free software" expression instead of "open source".
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
"Microsoft has already made a proposal to the ministry of information technology (of India) for sharing the Windows source code with one government body. The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government official"
Microsoft takes the ass-backwards approach, and won't share source code with people who need it (i.e. Lindows developers) and instead gives it to someone they don't even know will ever exist.
The next thing you know MS buys india
Surrender YR pattent!
... it could be Windows 3.11 that they're gonna release the source for.
I would not be surprised one bit if M$ follows this tactic with India and any other large industrialized nation seeking a computer implementation that isn't already under their control. It makes those countries think that they are being helped by a corporation that is only doing it to gain marketshare.
----- I want my LART.
So, Microsoft is offering show the Windows source to India, potentially tainting a 15% of the world's population with their intellectual property?
I can't think of a better way to manufacture thousands of Windows developers while at the same time denying Open Source access to a billion people.
"Einstein argued that [...] God is not capricious or arbitrary. No such faith comforts the software engineer." ~ Brooks
Microsoft shares code with the US government as well as some research institutions. It's not like M$s code is super-secret or anything, it's just that they don't want anybody to be able to see how it works for whatever reason.
I'm sure if you put enough money on the table M$ would let you look at the code. And I'm sure M$ sees a lot of money in getting it's hooks in india's growing IT world.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
... they aren't willing to share source code in the U.S. for "security" reasons, but they are willing to pass on the source code to a country in the midst of a volatile conflict with a growing nuclear weapons program ...
...
and so now it's friday the 13th per GMT. maybe this is a fitting time to run the story
when it rains, it gets real soggy. when it pours, i'm under the tap just _waiting_ for the joy
Why has the Windows Source Code, arguably the most valuable piece of source code in history, never been leaked? Certainly, as others have said, people have it. Or parts of it. The distribution methods are out there (Gnutella, Freenet, Overseas servers). Once this genie gets out of the bottle, it couldn't ever be stoppered back in. So why has there been ten or fifteen years of Windows with no source leaks?
I mean, if the atom bomb got out, which has only a fraction of the destructive power of Windows (just kidding), then why not Windows?
Has it been:
- People are too scared of Microsoft to do it, even with anonymizing technology?
- Microsoft's security is just that good?
- ???
I'm not at all clear why India would care at all about MicroSoft's source code. It would seem that MS's offer to show it amounts to nothing more than a perk in the deal -- a bite of forbiden fruit.
India's hangups over making a deal with MS w/r/t their educational programs have much more to do with MS's rabid interest in dominating the hearts and minds of the next generation of computer users.
As such, India should be asking to see MS's internal business model, not their source code...
My other
SOURCE CODE OWNS YOU!!!
Today, Indian government officials examined the Microsoft Windows source code and realized that 99% of the code, when printed in landscape, formed an image that faintly represented a fat, sweaty, balding man screaming around a stage like a monkey.
IGB: More fun than eating oatmeal!
Wow, and this is based on what fact? Or are you just so happy masturbating to your Linux conf files that you gleefully bash anything Microsoft does?
I'm sure the Indian government is so stupid that they wouldn't catch any loopholes like that in a contract!
Good post.
evil adrian
I'm wondering what disclosing the source would actually matter?
/not/ it's open source code, but instead it is the support of the worldwide developer community. Granted that this community would never have formed unless the source was public, but I doubt that would ever help Windows because no matter how open the source is, people are A) not going to submit patches (and MS would never accept them) and B) the source was never meant to be publicaly readable so I doubt it makes any real sense and probably requires a quite complex dependancy tree that will doubtfully be released.
I know what you're thinking, you're thinking "but look what it did for Linux!", but I'm going to disagree with that supposition.
I must maintain that the reason of Linux's success is
Wiser people should know that Indian news media is at best very unreliable. Basically they all want to steal the spotlight from everyone else by exagerrating stories and coming up with sensationalist stuff. I wouldn't be very surprised if this was some agreement to collaborate on some propietary functions for the benefit of M$FT.
I never knew MS would want to trade their secrets for the secret of (Curry) Sauce!
http://in.news.yahoo.com/021212/43/1z0mv.html
I think IBM realizes what's at stake here and is willing to put more $$ where it's mouth is. That's gotta piss Bill and Steve off.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
These are all for good reason. Not only will one massive lost market initate several others, but India also represents a leading software high-tech zone that Microsoft does not want to lose. Think of the number of Linux programmers that would be learning to work on a real platform in five year if the government does not 'sell out' to this US monopoly.
I can't disclose really any more than this, but expect more concessions from the Redmond Giant before all is said and done. Hopefully India's Linux initiatives have not been just to facilitate dealing with M$.
Microsoft's dike is springing many holes. Thiy might fill this one, but products like the one below will be taking serious bites out of MSFT in the coming months...
http://www.distrowatch.com/review-xandros.php
Hunger is the best sauce.
if this may be related somehow to this recent announcement regarding IBM's recent software initiatives in India. On a slightly related question, how would any of this relate to the recent rumors of both IBM and MS vying to purchase Rational and Borland? My take is this: IBM may be the number 2 software vendor, but as a company MS knows they could be choked on for breakfast in terms of sheer scale as reflected in US dollars. Upon reading about the recent sentiments in India, my vote goes with Big Blue.
C|N>K
Mac Fag!
Microsoft giving source code to India, and not to Pakistan, is almost as bad as Red Hat removing the Taiwanese flag from KDE in its products. (Were Windows source code of any use to a war-faring nation, it would be much, much worse, of course.)
There is no way they will give them the /entire/ source for /free/ without a catch. It goes against the very foundation of everything microshaft is. It is just a ploy because M$ is scared crapless of the open-source movement and the fact that India is seriously considering Linux (or have they already decided on it for gov't use?). I just hope India is smart enough to see through their deceptions.
:p
Hey, maybe the US DOJ can purchase it from India, then?
windows source has been available to microsoft partners and educational institutions for years.
Isn't that what the government official said last time? That India could not afford to develop their own OS?
-Brent
You can kiss my GPL code writing ass!
Got Code?
If it is a precedent being set, then it could very well be how the population of an entire country operates.
Most people think that 'operating systems' are something that are confined to the workings of computers. History, however, would point out that the term 'computer' used to refer to a person, whose job was to compute (with an abacus or something). Similarly, an 'operating system' also affects how people perform their jobs... Have you ever had somebody tell you something like 'OK, so click Start, Programs, Office, Word' And without thinking, you go through a set of motions that are nearly instinctual? That's an example of how people use operating systems to communicate information and tasks to other people.
I digress a bit. The way I see it, the United States has sort of a 'protective ward' or 'shield' against this kind of stuff, because the USA has a 250+ year old operating system which the federal government uses. The code? Written down in the US Constitution.
Anyhow, the way I see it, you are right, sharing the source code of their OS with a government does seem like its setting a bit of an odd precedent. As far as I can tell, it's sort of like saying, 'OK, we'll organize your billion people just like we organize our files on a supercomputer.' And every person gets a profile, access, authority, and authentication to certain network resources (can you say access control lists (ACLS)?). Hmmm.
It seems to me that it's suggesting a rather Brave-New-World-esque operating system for India. Very, very weird precedent.
A year or so ago, hackers broke into M$ and stole the NT source code. I'm sure that it's floating around somewhere if you really want it.
There are also other people with the source. If a company really needs to see the windows sorce, they could probably place a corporate spy into M$ to get it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I can just see it now:
In the event of any piece of MS Windows source code being released accidently, intentionally, or otherwise, MS reserves the right to say, and execute on said statement, All Your Are Base Belong To MS Now.
Gee, and we thought the Taliban was bad.
"Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke
-India
I'm .... off to feed the trolls, the wonderful trolls of /.
I'm here to feed the microsoft serfs because bill gates software sux,
if ever there was a troll, this was, because, because, because...
Ok, nice piece of irony, dude! I'm willing to bet that people bite, 'cause it's late in the day.
If you disclose source code Microsoft gets YOU!
That's where the programmers are. Think of it as a donation to a VERY large university.
If you want to look at the source to ensure yourself that there is no NSA/CIA/M$ malware or trojans there, how do you know you are looking at the right thing? Will M$ actually let you USE the source and create your own certified Win distribution? Using your own trusted compiler?
Don't think so.
)9TSS
Unless microsoft plans on releasing the source code for every windows update patch as well, they will still be able to maintain as much control as they have always had (re: too much)
got any proof? I'm interested...
/* Source Code Windows XP */ //if // if //while //if /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.1"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.11"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 95"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 3.0"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows 98"); */ /* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 4.0"); */ // while // main
#include "win31.h"
#include "win95.h"
#include "win98.h"
#include "workst~1.h"
#include "evenmore.h"
#include "oldstuff.h"
#include "billrulz.h"
#include "monopoly.h"
#include "backdoor.h"
#define INSTALL = HARD
char make_prog_look_big(16000000);
void main()
{
while(!CRASHED)
{
display_copyright_message();
display_bill_rules_message();
do_nothing_loop();
if (first_time_installation)
{
make_100_megabyte_swapfile();
do_nothing_loop();
totally_screw_up_HPFS_file_system();
search_and_destroy_the_rest_of-OS2();
make_futile_attempt_to_damage_Linux();
disable_Netscape();
disable_RealPlayer();
disable_Lotus_Products();
hang_system();
}
write_something(anything);
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
do_some_stuff();
if (still_not_crashed)
{
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
basically_run_windows_31();
do_nothing_loop();
}
}
if (detect_cache())
disable_cache();
if (fast_cpu())
{
set_wait_states(lots);
set_mouse(speed,very_slow);
set_mouse(action,jumpy);
set_mouse(reaction,sometimes);
}
printf("Welcome to Windows 2000");
if (system_ok())
crash(to_dos_prompt)
else
system_memory = open("a:\swp0001.swp",O_CREATE);
while(something)
{
sleep(5);
get_user_input();
sleep(5);
act_on_user_input();
sleep(5);
}
create_general_protection_fault();
}
(Hehe. Code courtesy of this funny site and reproduced here for your enjoyment.)
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
The current code Microsoft has doesn't even pass the Quick Glance test for what they're planning for Palladium. All of the Windows code will be worthless in three (five/eight) years when Pd rolls around, but license agreements that last a decade or more in exchange for source code will still be useful to MS.
I personally don't believe anyone would be stupid enough to sign over whatever it is Microsoft will ask in exchange for buggy, probably uncommented, old source.
and set by Linux. Whether MS likes it or not, and whoever acknowledges it or not, the effective price of a functioning OS, complete with bundled office suite, is now $0. The effective method of delivery is with full source code.
The genie is out of the bottle. MS is the follower.
MS is running a slow retreat. It will do so as slowly as it can, as seldom as it can.
That is why it's offering the code to India but fought the DoJ tooth and nail. The *Indian* government's interest in Linux is one that MS believes is serious. It does not yet take the American govenments *use* of Linux seriously. When it does the American *government* will get code, but just exactly that least amount of code that will "seal the deal."
Rinse and repeat.
This is always the case when a business is based on "secret knowledge." Once someone else learns the knowledge they undercut the orginal seller. Once the knowledge is ubiquitous the knowledge has no commercial value per se and the "price" of the knowledge becomes the price of the labor to impliment it.
So it has been. So it is. So it shall be.
Eventually Windows and MS Office will sell, together, for about $40, about the price of a boxed Red Hat distro, and come with a certain amount of user readable and modifiable code.
It's where the market is already, it's just going to take a bit of time for it to overcome it's inertia and readjust to the current state of affairs.
With MS kicking and screaming all the way.
Because of this Linux *will never win.* At least in the sense of being the one true OS that dominates the world. It will eventually have too much competition *at it's own level.*
But that will be because its *principles* carried the day.
Somewhere in its heart MS realizes this. This is why it's so willing to aggresively seek various means of forcing Windows usage. It's the only tactic it has left.
Which is a clear indication that the game is already lost.
KFG
"In a shocking development, the Indian government turned down a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity in deploying Microsoft software with source in hand. As far as their reasoning, the president of India said: 'Well, we were going to go ahead with the deal, but we rethought things through after reading an insightful warning by a man named dh003i. Thank you, dh003i, for without you we surely would have falled into a trap placed by those greedy capitalists."
Astroturfers regularly assert that open source projects are less secure because there's security in obscurity. A lot of people would call that bullshit, but that's the argument.
What are they going to say when it's not just industrial spies, but a whopping big subcontinent that can find holes to exploit by code review? And we still can't patch it ourselves?
Ugh - frozen software, whose every flaw is there for the reader.
The only plus I see here is that only very obfuscated MS trojans will surivive.
I'm sure that India already knew about the availability of Windows source code. But the fact is that Linux is free while Windows cost money, so there choice was obvious.
Fwiw, (sorry I dont have an online reference), there was a very recent (like last week) article in the WSJ that went into detail about GatesCo's efforts to address uses of opensource. In fact, once instance was where the the Pentagon commisioned a research project on OpenSource (from Mitre) that basically concluded that open source is a good thing. MS came in and requested/demanded the conclusion be watered down. There have been other cases, such as india, where the govt decides to use open source apps for some educational project, then MS (unrelated of course) shows up the next day with big donation of "free" windows software, office, etc. How can a cash strapped gov't turn that down?
"Hey kid, the first one is free."
"Ah, &*$%#$%@! Our nuke's Windows operating system crashed just before detonation. Now it's a worthless heap of plutonium. Damn US-ians."
its purely survival driven "lizard brain"? :)
KFG
But seriously whats the point? I thought half the point of open source software was to have it reviewed for flaws. So what if the Indian government is given the source code, what will they do with it that could really be all that benificial? I understand there are alot of coder farms there, but....
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." -Voltaire
Even if they do give India the source, it'll only be temporary -- for now, to prevent them from switching to Linux. Once India is dependant on MS, it'll be no more source and no more cheap-deals for them."
Babel Fish Translation, In English:
Obviously India wants to look at the Windows source to audit it for security. This is pointless, and I'll tell you why.
Windows is a HUGE program, with around fifty million lines of source code. I would assert that it is damn near impossible to audit.
Auditing attempts aside, they prove nothing unless one can go through with the final test - compiling a working Windows from all this source code. This would be impossible to do because MS would NEVER let India see all of it's code. The gaping, intentional holes would be discovered, and it would be all over for Bill.
All kidding aside (I HOPE I was kidding above) India will never see enough code to determine if they are looking at the real thing. Kind of like trying to tell a real Fabergé from a fake by looking at an electron micrograph of a few atoms of eggshell.
30 GB, so going to take a litle longer than 6 hours for it to be leaked (unless a T3 is involved)
This is brilliant stuff.
The reason it hasn't been leaked is simple.. once you look.. SNOWCRASH!
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Babel Fish Translation, In English:
Blah blah blah M$. Blah blah blah evil. Blah blah blah? Monopoly! Blah blah blah only to screw you later blah blah blah. Don't trust blah blah blah blah. Microsoft blah blah crap and blah blah blah.
Hah! Well, he's got a point. Few comments so far have been much more intriguing than that.
"Derp de derp."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstech nology/134594397_microsoft12m.html
One CD and the source code that our government and military runs a good deal of systems on is in the hands of whoever can pay.
The Russians would have given a lot to be able to do that in the old days.
Gates should be shot as a traitor.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
I remember reading an open letter from the Indian government (I think. It might have been a south american country.) to MS stating the reasons they wanted to go with linux rather than a windows platform. Basically, they realized (to the cheers of many many slashdotters) that no matter what discounts MS may offer them, providing their schools with MS software would allow MS to jack up the price or impose any other restrictions later on when everyone would be used to the windows environment, making a switch to linux costly and difficult.
Hopefully they'll remember their position and realize that opening the source code is just another piece of bait. There's no guarantee it will stay open and availabe, just like there's no guarantee of continued MS price breaks after the first one. It looks like they've got a pretty good handle on the "The first one's free" concept.
Most Indian policy makers and politicians can be,
and frequently are, bought; the question is not _if_
but _how much_. Decisions made in India are not
correlated to any real or perceived national interest but rather how much is deposited in that
numbered Swiss bank account.
India I hope has more sense than to buy into this obvious MS ploy. I'm not trying to sound like a typical anti-microsoft /.er, but this reeks of Microsoft's typical weasely business practice.
What guarantee does India have that when Windows 2004 comes out, it won't be a total re-write of the code that Microsoft doesnt want to share? Then their investment in MS code today will be useless tomorrow. Not to mention the myriad of overbearing restrictions that MS is bound to place on the use of their code.
If India wants to excel in the software development field, I think it's in their best interest to go with an Open solution e.g. Linux or some flavor of BSD. This is what will benefit them the most in the long run.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Show them any evidence and they'll make up a story about tampering and fake video and blah blah. Theres no getting through to these people. Even funnier is the group who still believes the world isn't round.
And the best part is...that once Microsoft does this, the Windows source code will also be "free and downloadable from the internet".
Mwuahahahahahahahaha!
>:-)
Wow... that is probably the most bigotted post I've seen on Slashdot in quite some time. Just for your information -- a majority of people in India are Hindus not Muslems.
If you buy proprietary software, it should work without having source code access. Insist on well-documented APIs and preferably conformance to standards. For a proprietary vendor to give you source code access under a restrictive license is only an excuse for poor testing and quality control and an attempt to bind you to them further. Don't touch someone else's source code unless it comes with an open source compliant license or is in the public domain.
Of course these investments aren't really stretching either microsoft's or Billy's wallets at all. A drop in the bucket really. Lot's of money for India, though. I wonder if the powers that be thought that maybe spending more would catch too much of the wrong sort of attention? Anyone have any ideas on how much opening up the source to India would actually be worth to microsoft so we could get a more concrete idea just how much all of this is worth?
It really appears that microsoft is in damage-control mode in trying to stem the spread of open source contribution in one of the largest producers of software engineers in the world.
sir_botchalot
microsoft has been after india for a while now, intent on getting the whole country hooked on ms products. I think the most insulting part was when Bill Gates donated all that money for AIDS research in India.
I am just wondering what are the proofs that the given source code is the very same one used to compile the binaries I can find in the stores?
I mean, even at m$, nobody as a view at the entire source. What are the proofs that backdoors aren't added just after the programmers labs by NSA or even... Al-Quaida?
And don't tell me Indian government will be allowed to compile their own versions for their whole staff!
Maybe I'm paranoid, but NO, I don't trust m$...
MS does that in an attempt to persude india Government Open Source is a non-issue when they can look at their code.
:)
Shared source may help india Government to address the concern on hidden security issues, but it doesn't address the problem associated with vendor-lockup.
A Government officer(not US Govt) once told me they regret to chose Unisys for a satalite system few year back because Unisys just sold all the exclusive rights of this proprietary system to another company, and that company charges them outragous maintenance fee. They system is too critical and expensive to replace so they've to stuck with it. This year they've to cut a lot of resource to pay up the fee.
MS only grants right for them to look at the source code but this doesn't grant them right to distribute it to others, so they still need to rely on one vendor and fall into same vendor-lock hell.
I don't think India Government would be fooled by their deception. In view of their previous action I believe that they've more smart people in their Government then any other countries.
Microsoft gives out source all of the time. It's not open and it's certainly not to everybody. They've done it with universities for years. They've given it to various government bodies, including the government of Austria. This is not new.
That's liek saying seeing the source code for windows is like the programmer's Black Plague. view MS code -> Get sued for writing open source software. That would be ludicrous if it ever happened, and honestly I don't think microsoft cares that much. They are doing a very good job of coercing big customers that MS software is cheaper, because you don't have to think while you're installing it, but you still have to pay insanely high licensing fees. Time may equal money, but if people became familiar with linux (i.e. instead of some MS certified tech guy trying to install linux on a corporate network without any previous experience) then the time/effort would be reduced greatly, and it would be comparable towindows. The only reason windows takes less time now is because that's what everyone knows, and also because it's made so any numnut can use it, which may be good or bad depending on your standpoint on security.
By this gesture MS is acknowledging that the source code is important. Hopefully India is smart enough to see that MS offers the source as a last resort where as Linux offers the source code (plain and simple).
It would be embarrasing. People would just look at it and laugh.
Bigfoot gives his first interview to "Inside Edition"
There really WERE Aliens inside the Roswell Craft
Saddam Hussein gives up and disarms
Communism is good for you.
What's my point? Well, all of these things are complete crap that don't mean squat. Micro$oft releasing its source code won't mean much more than the above phoney headlines until they release it to everyone. What they're doing is panicing and frantically trying to undermine Linux. Goes to show what they'll do when they're backed into a big corner. I'd love to see what happens when the corners start getting smaller and smaller...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
...is why they should settle for a half-hearted attempt to please, when they can get the real thing for free, along with support by a comparable international corporation? To anyone not already in bed with Microsoft (and thus not yet beholden to Office or Exchange), there's simply no contest. And I think this is what's scaring the source code out of Microsoft.
[ home ]
whoo hoo, it'll be on gnutella/kazaa/dc/irc now. been lookin for that one.
tee hee
Give us Windows Kinds!
This is a hypothetical question:
Lets say you're a developer who under such an arrangement got to look at the windows source. Now lets say the windows source code contained a whole bunch of open source code ripped off from Linux and BSD over the last few years.
To look at this source meant you had to swear on our mother's life and your checkbook that you will not tell anybody what it contains.
Would you legally be allowed to do anybody??
There are 3 sources bases which can plausibly be called the windows source. The original source based which started with DOS and windows 1 and went on up to windows 95 and Windows Millenium. The 'portable windows' CE which is its own code base. And the NT code base which is the one people would want.
It might make a lot of sense for MS to give out the source to the windows 95 codebase, as it is old and decrepit and would cost more to understand than to reimplement.
Windows CE has a very small market and giving out the source base might be its last gasp.
What does this gain anyone? Being able to see the source code is useless unless there is a way to submit changes. In fact, it's dangerous - find a flaw and you know it'll be months (minimum) before it gets fixed.
No, this is not a troll; this is plain fact! Listen to the conversations in any of the "support" (what a word) IRC channels:
... There are no published stats for people who defect back to Windows. Ever wonder why?
"My plug-and-play scanner doesn't work. What do I do?"
"RTFM, you clueless n00b, and stop bothering us. We're working on pre-locked deoptimized kernel stack trapping routines."
"How do I burn CDs?"
"RTFM, you clueless n00b, and stop bothering us. We're working on putting decentralized distributed portable code extensions into the kernel."
"I just want to know how to -- "
"RTFM, you clueless n00b, and stop bothering us. We're adding pre-distro-optimal stack lock coding routines to the kernel!"
"But I -- "
"RTFM, you clueless n00b, and stop bothering us! Linux is obviously too l33t for your lame Windoze, Borg Gates ass!"
Sorry, dude, but the US used to make stuff. Welcome to the world of Banking and Coffee service. Brazil was here first, Canada joined next...
"Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux operating system as the latter's source code is free and downloadable from the internet."
:-)
If Microsoft share's it's code with India its source will be also.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I am an Indian. I believe after a certain stage, there will be no stopping Linux (or *BSDs). The momentum for Linux is currently very weak, but is gathering speed every day. Why?
...)
- Sooner or later India will grow strong enough to challenge US. Then Windows will be viewed with the kind of suspicion that the Chinese/Europeans do now.
- It is simply not attractive (market size) for MS to "Indianize" Windows, the way we Indians can do to Linux (eg All Native Languages, etc)
- I already see a trend that very IT savvy Indians tend to dislike MS for various reasons (trustworthiness, price-gouging,
- Pride. With MS & its software, you can only do sweatshop style jobs. With Linux, we can turn our programmers into reputable contributors, recognised the world over.
Although I'm sure you meant insightful and merely typed the synonym by mistake ( which I do myself with terrifying regularity) it appears to have been pretty inciteful as well. :)
KFG
bring the trolls out in force.
In the words of my dear departed granny:
"Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
KFG
it doesn't matter as long as it works in the real world
this is one place where i think capitalism really shines
people won't stand for something ineffecient just because so and so would like to keep it that way so they can get rich, and the market will kill off companies that can't adapt as needed
It's such a bloated piece of hackware that nobody would believe it was the Windows source.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Some are actually easier and faster to install. I installed a distro called Lycoris the other week that has a similar approach to Lindows. I'm not saying this is the way to go, but it was really fast and simple to install, and the PC looks and reacts similar to Windows XP, but costs $0.
In other words, my computer illiterate Dad could use it.
If Windows didn't already come pre-installed (due to the monopoly factor) then people like my Dad probably would be considering the free alternative if he was made aware of it. Fact is that I don't know ANYONE that has purchased Windows at full price, for personal use. It's always bundled or corporate.
when Indian programmers start dying of laughter after reading windows source code?
tcboo
Based on fact? How about the fact that MS is a business and businesses need to make money. Making money necessarily means fucking the customer out of money -- because if the customer isn't getting a shitty value, then you're really losing.
MS will enter into a short-term contract with the Indian government at a very good bargain with perks, perhaps, only to make them dependant on Windows and MS' proprietary formats. Then, when its time to renegotiate, they'll say "fuck you, start bleeding through the asshole".
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Shared Source Licensing Programs: Availability by Country
Interesting bits from the shared source philosophy:
The commercial software model is built on five key elements:
- Community. A strong support community of developers.
- Standards. Promote collaboration and interoperability while supporting innovation and healthy competition.
- Business model: Promote the growth of a profitable business.
- Investment. Level of research and development investment drives resources for future innovation.
- Licensing model. Provide product and source access without jeopardizing the intellectual property rights of those who create or use the software.
[...] The source licensing programs and licenses are tailored to the diverse needs of Microsoft's customer and partner communities.Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
Perhaps I did not look close enough, I didn't actually handle them, but the NT source cd's I saw looked mass produced, factory pressed and silk screened. The source was licensed to a university research project. Locked rooms and NDAs were required.
regardless of any thoughts on the merits of giving or not giving the source to India (or anywhere else for that matter) it is pretty much given that the source will soon find its way into the publics hands. moreover I am betting that they have been (since the whole DOJ thing looking bad) working on a special "source releasable" version of Windows for just this situation. And I am betting that on one hand such a releaseable version would have missing parts, but yet what was there would be better than normal. (It would be missing much of the crapware)
PRAGATI VERMA
TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2002 02:31:31 AM ]
Microsoft is virtually doing the unthinkable in India -- it is planning to share the Windows source code. Not with one and all, as Linux does, but with a specific government body which, in turn, will share it with others for the purposes of e-governance and education.
Microsoft has already made a proposal to the ministry of information technology for sharing the Windows source code with one government body. The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government officials. Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux operating system as the latter's source code is free and downloadable from the internet.
When contacted by ET, Microsoft India president Rajiv Nair was somewhat cagey. Although he didn't deny the move, he merely said, "We are evaluating the idea (of sharing the source code)." However, sources in the company said that MS is already in talks with the government to work out the modalities of sharing the source code. It's learnt that MS worldwide program manager for shared source program, Jason Matusow, was recently in India to work out the modalities.
Microsoft is exceedingly secretive about its Windows source code -- the company has so far shared it with only a few big clients and developers. In Asia. MS has shared the Windows source code with select clients in Japan, Korea and Singapore. What appears to have persuaded it to extend the same privilege to the Indian government is the growing attraction here for the Linux OS, which is seen by some state governments as a cheaper alternative to Windows.
Microsoft officials are, of course, playing down the Linux threat. They insisted that Linux wasn't a big issue while selling to the governments in India. Says Peter Hayes, industry vice-president, Microsoft Government: "OS software is merely 1-3% of the total cost of an IT project, and studies have shown that total cost can be lower with Microsoft technologies compared to Linux." The open source software has been grabbing headlines recently as the debate on open versus proprietary software has gained momentum in government circles here.
Says MS boss for shared source program, Jason Matusow, "There has been a lot of hype about open source code in the software industry as well as in the media. Linux might grab headlines, but being able to look at source code doesn't bring any benefits to an average end-user, though it might increase the trust level."
The basic idea behind open source is very simple. When programmers can read, redistribute, and modify the source code for a piece of software, the software evolves. People improve it, people adapt it, people fix bugs. While open source community believes that this process produces better software than the traditional closed model, proponents of proprietary software argue that this model can't work in the commercial world.
#include ba_doom_ching.h
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Microsoft is doing this in Japan too ...t =4&id =240429
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&ca
if a guy named dh003i can make a difference, you can too!!!
My win2k box never crashes, apps occasionally do and should we blame the OS? Hardly. Define stable local file sharing. If you'd bother to read any manuals you would know how long windows waits to broadcast its netbios name. Stole the BSD tcp/ip stack? They licensed it legally you stupid fucktard. Read it sometime instead of showing your ignorance. Media player has had mp3 support since version 6.something. Multiprocessor support? Win2k datacenter does 32 cpus, the limit of xeon. Again you have no clue what you're talking about. High level programming languages? Last time I checked PERL is available for windows along with a few others. How fucking retarded are you?
I'd argue Windows has done far far more damage than the Atomic bomb....
Quite Seriously.
For those who are worried about DOS attacks flooding the internet when people see the bug ridden code, don't worry about it, any significant backbone on the net is running *nix anyway.
I mean seriously, could India bring up claims of an attack from the US government to the UN if we allowed a weapon of mass destruction such as windows to enter india? What retribution woudl the UN take for such a serious offense??
This could lead to War, for god's sake, it'd be like bombing iraq for taking kuwait's oil in an attempt to reclaim their own backyard and daring to stay after successfully conquering it.
*sighs* sorry, almost forgot, the US has the UN Pussy whipped, we can send weapons of mass destruction such as windows to india without fear.
who cares?
...
it's an OS. it's really nothing special, and the computing world won't be revolutionized by any source code that is "graciously" donated. (it just so happens that it's a rather flaky OS with a nice graphical interface which happens to be popular today, but probably won't be 10 years down the road.)
moving on
I've worked at MS competitors for years, and this kind of thing looks like an old, old pattern repeating itself. Basically they take a great concept, like open source, and they manipulate its meaning until they can own and then destroy the basic concept that threatened them in the first place. Remember, Microsoft invented "embrace and extend" and FUD.
>MS Proposes Disclosing Windows Source To India
India plans nuclear retaliation any minute now!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
This is a very interesting story being that interestingly enough he found it in the Economic Times of India, a very interesting periodical. Also, he puts it, "Interestingly, the offer comes at a time when state governments are showing interest in rival Linux." Interesting, because I'm interested in Linux as well as interesting Slashdot stories.
Oh yeah, and this should be modded "+1, Interesting".
It appears that all Microsoft were doing (.Net this .Net that) was to distruct competition from what they really wanted - introduce more anti-competitive practices through discount deals for SMEs, taking over Borland, bribing Indian govt, Palladium...If that wasn't the case they could have made .Net server released perhaps.
Is full-blown war with OpenSource/Linux/IBM/Sun... just starting?
As I said before, please read this before jerking the knee:
v er sity/NTSrcLicInfo.aspx
http://research.microsoft.com/collaboration/uni
This may be the first time they've done this with a government, but it isn't the first time they've liscenced out their source.
Secret: Most MS groups have two different code branches in the source repository, one for internal use and one for the code sharing program.
Whoa! Ignorance overload!
If I were Microsoft, I'd be embarassed to let others look at Windows' code!
That is, absolutely, one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard in my life. "Making money necessarily means fucking the customer out of money"? What the hell are you talking about??
Do you feel ripped off when you buy a 25 cent pack of Wrigley's gum? Is that price totally fucking you over, at 5 cents a stick? What about when you pay less than 5 cents a stick when you buy a Plen-T-Pak? Is that a shitty value?
Second of all, nobody fucks the consumer over. Operating systems are not food. Nobody *has* to buy an operating system, people *choose* to buy the operating system. The consumers know what they are buying, if they pay too much for too little, they are fucking themselves over.
And finally, what evidence do you have that Microsoft will do what you say they will do? And no, your blindly anti-Microsoft rhetoric and irrational viewpoint does not count as evidence.
evil adrian
There goes the "Mircosoft should be protected because of national security" arguement.
you just know that's what they're offering. and if you've ever drank beer in India, there are mainly 2 varieties, regular or strong.
watch out for the strong it will set you down pretty quick.
anyhow, the freedom isn't about free beer anyhow, and the Indians won't be fooled by this "shared source initiative"
There's an expression in Khatmandu, just north of India, "Namaste" (someone with a clue let me know if I spelled that wrong, and perhaps expand on the meaning of that phrase and the relevance in this situation.)
Anyhow Bill, the good guys always win when the people have a clue about who the good guys aren't... Open source controlled by someone else has almost no value, other than being able to contribute code to Microsoft, while not being on the payroll. 500 Million dollars didn't buy your way in, free server software wouldn't do it either, and this also isn't going to fly. I wish the US government was as clued in as some other nations are.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
I mean, whos going to start up the pool where we can bet how long between the source code is sent to India and it is all over the Internet?
Put me down for 34 hours.
The Internet is generally stupid
Windows CE has a very small market and giving out the source base might be its last gasp.
The Windows CE source is already available to the public.
NO CARRIER
1) Build Nuke
2) Prove that you may be crazy enough to use it
3) Threaten M$ that your going open source
4) M$ gives you source code
5) ???
6) Profit
Life moves pretty fast; if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. -FB
Seriously, Microsoft is making a big mistake by over-reacting and fighting the world.
They (Microsoft) would be much better off if they just STFU, fixed their bugs (if possible), opened up and inter-operated, and were just happy with their market share they already have.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Damn those richie developed countries like disposing industrial wastage to developing countries....oh wait, disclosing not disposing?...nevermind then
If Windows came with source, would you still pay for it? (Assume for a moment you use it and pay for it now, please.)
If you had the source - if EVERYONE had the source - to for example mount an Active Directory database under an executable that had the security checks disabled (because you modified and compiled the source) would that be a good thing?
I'm guessing Microsoft doesn't think so. I'm curious to know why you do?
I'm conducting a research study. My theory: one of these South Park inspired posts on every single slashdot message board since the episode was released.
So far so good
in soviet russia, india discloses windows source to microsoft....
wait, that doesn't make sense.
Go back and read the post again. This time pay attention to what I said. Not what you think I said.
.iso's.
As to the question of payment people buy Red Hat. I know an A+ with broadband who bought it, even though he knew where to download it.
There is a price point at which most people would *rather* buy it than spend 8 hours downloading it and then another hour burning the
That price point seems to be about forty bucks. And with forty bucks you get eggroll. . er, manuals, and support.
KFG
compile & check?
Since 45% that code is documented in Hindi anyways. Now if they can release the code in China for the other 55%....
... this could be a good thing. Knowing the corruption that runs rampant through the Indian Goverment, where everyone has a price, all we need is someone to come up with a reasonable amount of cash and we may have the souce code for windows in the wild.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Microsoft does something anything that even funnier is certainly a complicated difficult to it Lindows. Oh thats the American software has come must just because; of and setup to this truely not even exist on MS will be saying This Parent don't use of they'd just going to escape justice?
What's got them, be Windows, and we are a group of windoze might still not. We tell you think of shit breaking older stuff, because you are, too! No problems.
Wild. My small time principles
would seem that you that demand that in the game is ubiquitous.
You, that are willing to this become The problem with different already
been leaked trying to This interests you do you really; dont think of
machines in the expense just doesn't the box for? It comes XP and
running with different: strengths source to This when its the price of
Microsoft officials shifting away. But I'd have you cannot do, what
people tactics to impliment it, make sure if I'm using my Reply to this
is the reason of the source including Development tools is rounding up
with Hemos to lack of code portion you about third alternatives it's
not like saying This Parent Re.
It might make a lot of sense for MS to give out the source to the windows 95 codebase, as it is old and decrepit and would cost more to understand than to reimplement.
Tell that to the WINE folks. I'm sure they will be pleased with this trivialization of their years of hard work.
of business would be to send them a copy of the Windows source code. They would go bankrupt figuring out how such a heaping pile ever worked.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
M$ are afraid that after india government linux would be in indian universities and they'd loose a BILLION potential M$ users!!! :)
go for linux, go!!!
The way I see it, the United States has sort of a 'protective ward' or 'shield' against this kind of stuff, because the USA has a 250+ year old operating system which the federal government uses. The code? Written down in the US Constitution.
And that has to be the worlds OLDEST open-source project I have ever seen.. the code is updated nearly daily!
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Going back a bit
I'm pretty sure that the most important reason the source has never been leaked or released is due to the fact that M$ is embarrased at just how shitty the code really is...
_maniac_
If that code is as bad formatted as it works it would make any man without nuclear goggles blind.
I mean, ohh the horror!
HTTP/1.1 400
From what I understand, MS has copyrighted Windows binaries, but kept the source as a trade secret.
Well, if I got that right, all that needs happen is for someone not covered by a non-disclosure agreement to come across the source & its out of the bag. Say some Indian govt employee loses a laptop with the source on it & someone else finds it, or say some worker throws a CD out, thinking its fucked when its not, & those people who go through the garbage find it, or what ever. If my understanding is correct, once that happens then anyone would be be able to use the source on any project, for example WINE could use it to perfect their compatibility. & quite legally too, well that is if I'm correct in my understanding of trade secrets.
Only problem is, wasn't CSS a trade secret, so why's DeCSS banned? Surelly once Xing 'accidently' exposed CSS, MoRE was free to use it?
to which the US is now a signatory, all original works are automatically copyrighted at the time of creation. No special filing is required.
The code is copyright protected and the property of MS.
DeCSS is a slightly different case as it broke certain provisions of the *US's* DMCA regarding *encryption* of digital files. Adobe is now trying to claim those provisions even apply to works in the *public domain.* The provisions of the law are NOT part of the international code, but poor Jan is in court anyway.
KFG
The nature of the body has not been spelt out; it will presumably be worked out after discussions between the company and the government officials.
Main Entry: spelt
Pronunciation: 'spelt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin spelta, of Germanic origin; perhaps akin to Middle High German spelte split piece of wood, Old High German spaltan to split -- more at SPLIT
Date: before 12th century
: a wheat (Triticum aestivum spelta) with lax spikes and spikelets containing two light red kernels
It was funny, not flamebait!
Tah-mah-duh huun-dan!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
microsoft's biggest nightmare in six words
India becomes a free software country
why : free software's history has mostly been in the 'developed' world - here it is flourishing in spite of the fact that it is playing from a catch-up position
in these countries most of the places where it makes sense to use computers are already doing so and have been for a while - and most of these are using proprietary society
despite this, free software is making significant inroads
now factor in the world's (soon to be) most populous country turning down the free software path much earlier in it's computerisation process than the countries it is following - moreover a country where english is (fairly widely) known and which has a culture possibly unrivalled in it's ability to deal with abstract thought (witness the highly sophisticated ancient vedic and dravidian cultures and the contemporary reputation of indian programmers)
result : the free software movement - steady and stable and resolutely making progress gets a massive shot in the arm - india becomes an example to all other 'devloping countries' - the microsoft pyramid scheme starts to develop massive cracks in it's base
free software in india - well worth while keeping a watching brief on
1. Create a first post robot
2. Rule the world
3. Profit!!
but they are willing to pass on the source code to a country in the midst of a volatile conflict with a growing nuclear weapons program ...
It sickens me to hear this from such holier than thou racist americans. Okay so who thrust the Nuclear genie upon the world? Which is the only country in the world to use a nuclear weapon (against a country that had almost lost the war) and affect millions of inncoent people? And just what Godly right do the americans have of being the only country with a right to nuclear technology? Listen dude, we Indians are smart enough to make nuclear technology on our own. We did it in the 1970's itself but just never flaunted it till recently. And that too we did it when Pakistan's stolen nuclear technology (which the US pussyfootedly turned a blind eye to) forced us to. And what volatile conflict are you talking about? Oh you mean our tiff with Pakistan? Have you guys forgotten your own cold war with USSR so easily? What was all that for so many years? At least in our case Pakistan was once part of us and who knows me might unite in future like Germany. And don't tell me there isn't any violence in the US. Puhleeze at least in India you don't have to worry about any crazy crackpot being able to buy a gun and kill anyone or school kids getting easy access to guns and killing all classmates. Some people may be poor in India but they sure don't face such silly fears. So buddy the moral of the story is stop bad mouthing other countries and take a look at yourself okay.
And I don't care two hoots if you typical american moderators moderate me to -1 or whatever. You guys are sickos for moderating this guy to 4 in the first place.
several presumptions are being made
You linux people hypothosize that
Microsoft is all bad
WIndows is all bade based on above theorum
You then further postulate
Because of above theorum:
Source code is the solution
You can do a better job
It's all malice
It was thought out
And it's easy
Their are several mistakes with these asumptions
Including:
It'll be released to the general public
It'll be release at all under GPL
It'll be a full release if N is true
With the previso that N != false then N/2 then if their is a publice relicence:
You can improve on someone with stock options and is able to make some funimental things fly with few problems
You'd get the source know how to read it and not have signed a NDA with lots of threats and claims to yout TRW reports credit or life
Hence the following are true:
Linux GPL is not Windows GPL (if it is a GPL release at all or even a version build of windows that's interesting)
You can not even code to their standards Linux can't even get to bootstrap on some of the things MsWindows 98 does with out even thinking let alone do anythin interesting half the time out side of ping telnet and a few other user land utilities
it would never be free software.
>MS is already in talks with the government to work out the modalities of sharing the source code
"Modalities"!!! Wtf is that supposed to mean?
From Merriam-Webster (cheers guys):
------------
One entry found for modality.
Main Entry: modality
Pronunciation: mO-'da-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: circa 1617
1 a : the quality or state of being modal b : a modal quality or attribute : FORM
2 : the classification of logical propositions according to their asserting or denying the possibility, impossibility, contingency, or necessity of their content
3 : one of the main avenues of sensation (as vision)
4 : a usually physical therapeutic agency
------------
So, it's either some strange Indian method of healing, or M$ are asserting their own impossibility!
Skiing? Check out The Independant Skiers Portal
We once insisted on source for a OS and the company agreed --- and supplied it on microfiche. It met the letter of the contract without actually being any use.
In addition, having the source is pointless unless you also have all the necessary build tools. I very much doubt that XP is built by running configure; make; make install.
Finally, although access to the source may be of some limited use to speciallist developers, I very much doubt that most programmers could learn anything useful that could not be learnt elsewhere from books and open sources.
I do not beleave it
Either MS is only promising some things that MAY happen, but of course may also NOT HAPPEN. Or MS is going to show them ONLY some pieces of the code, for example the mouse and USB driver code.
Which is a clear indication that the game is already lost.
Other, heavier, indications that Microsoft is out of the race for good are the prohibition against publishing benchmark results and that they seem to be running heavy losses in except for the two products which the collect monopoly rents on...Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Also have a look at this comment from Bruce Perens and this comment from Eric S. Raymond from when the same thing happened in USA nearly two years ago.
-Filik.
I just ate. :-)
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Wonder how this affects any of the current cases against microsoft. If their argument that they can't disclose source in the interests of national security then how can they give it away to another nation which has the potential to be an unfriendly nuclear power ?
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
You probably wouldn't find any as such is grounds for termination at Microsoft.
So AFAIK this is what you should have typed:
I am very curious. How do they manage to maintain it ? how much spaghetti the code is ? what is the internal coding style ? what design patterns do they follow ? how componentized really is ? how much is it tied to the 80x86 architecture ? how much does the API resemble the APIs of MacOS ? what pieces are left from the original Windows ? is it only asm and C/C++ or there is Pascal in there is well ? How well does it compare to Linux when it comes to coding techniques ? what versioning system do they use ? how much of it is hacks ?
Of course, this is my scientific interest as a programmer to other people's work, and since Windows is a very important piece of software, I would like to see the internals of it. I don't care of repackaging and selling it, because I already have a working O/S that's fine for me: Linux. And I don't think that the open source Linux would gain anything from the Windows source code...
Interesting, I've received phone calls from several India software firms looking for work or partnerships with U.S. companies.... d my sci-fi site
stereoscopic multimedia pioneer view3d.tv
After 9/11, I think most volatile country is US. Worst place to live in or to do business, is a building where you can find an american individual or organisation.
Last but not the least, we indians fight wars(3 with pak) face militants(punjab/kashmir/North East) struggle economically(?), but don't sleep at night with a fear of being vapourised even if you are in the tallest building of the world.
And yes, we even need not worry about being cursed by any innocent victim of our Government's bullshit policies.
Which say,
Part 1:
US company X patents somthing that Indian company Y is already doing.
Company X then uses wipo so stop company Y infringing it's patent.
Part 2:
US company X patents a drug for an illness that is rife in India.
Althought the drug costs $0.001 per hit to manufacture the company charges $50 per hit.
And you wander why India doesn't bow down to the US patent system.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
The third pararagraph clearly shows that micorosft has Extra terestrial relations [satan maybe]
"When contacted by ET, Microsoft India president Rajiv Nair was somewhat cagey. Although he didn't deny the move, he merely said, "We are evaluating the idea (of sharing the source code)." However, sources in the company said that MS is already in talks with the government to work out the modalities of sharing the source code. It's learnt that MS worldwide program manager for shared source program, Jason Matusow, was recently in India to work out the modalities."
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
quit (stop) trying (attempting) to look (appear) smarter (more intelligent) than you are.
M$ sees the real handwriting on the wall.
They're losing the developer war to open-source, (Its a bug in the OS. [An easy call for a developper to make.] I can't fix it, you'll have to live with it!) Not fuckin' likely. Since most of the development is shifting to India, that's where they'll open the code to with draconian penalties. They'd open to China but they're already going Linux.
They're losing the education war to open source (yeah, go to school and NOT be able to study OSs? [you could be busted under the DMCA {you can be busted for revealing a store's price list!}])
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
ummm, where did you get the information that i am american, much less racist? besides, i'd say the exact same thing if Bill & Co. wanted to share the source code with Israel. and it really needs to be shared with countries that don't just happen to have an incredible emerging market and a legion of software engineers - why leave out the U.K., Latin America, and South Africa? economics must not overrule prudence, lest we descend into the disasterous downward spiral of letting corporations make decisions without recompense.
...
besides, you'd be just as incensed if your premier consulting firm suddenly decided to share their project code with North Korea, who has been shipping nuclear delivery methods and materials to many countries, including your beloved neighbors in Paktistan. keep it in perspective here
when it rains, it gets real soggy. when it pours, i'm under the tap just _waiting_ for the joy
And while we're all saying how it's great that India.gov can decide whether to go with Windows based on analysing the source, Microsoft passes sackfulls of bribes to key officials under the table. India is even more systematically corrupt than the USA. This is just a smokescreen.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
What with the DMCA, i'm sure putting the source code for windows in the public domain (govt being theoretically 'public') would be showing everyone explicitly how to exploit windows.
It would seem that this 'open source' move is an attempt to silence the remaining critics who say that access to the source is more important than the $$$ that MS is throwing at them.
The sad thing is that this isn't comparable to having the Linux source. Very few will have access to it and those that do will only be able to look at it, rather than being able to modify the OS itself and redistribut it.
Basically the only benefit you get is the ability to look for bugs and trojans to make sure that you aren't being spied on. That is certainly reasonable for a government to want to do, but it is only one of the many benefits of true 'open source'.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Ok, so Bill gets all friendly and hands you a big pile of code (CD's? Big reams of paper delivered by truck?)... I'm having a hard-time not seeing the scene from the South Park movie "Hey, relax guy!"
Thing is, how can you be sure it's really the actual production windows source code? Sure it will probably compile and even run, but he could leave certain bits out and it would take YEARS to discover that fact if it's a subtle deficiency.
No thanks, getting the source to Windows is like getting those low-interest rate checks from your credit card company. It sounds good on the surface, but when you really read it, you realize what a load it is....
[By all means correct me if i'm wrong on any of this...]
/. story, or possibly a story somewhere else, quote that the Indian government was embracing Linux because of ability to access some portion of the networking code that they couldn't access in windows because of its closed nature?
Well if i'm not mistaken, didn't an earlier
Appears to be just another Salvo in Operation Vindaloo (tm) (Bills wooing away of Indian developers from non MS projects...or attempt at any rate). First he donates a massive amount of money to fight AIDS while at the same time offering to give away windows (or was that sell at a reduced cost). Now, its sharing source code. Anyone want to place bets on what hes going to do next?
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
Who is going to enforce the NDA you make with a foreign government who decides to screw your company?
How would a goverment, that uses 99% Microsoft Windows, feel that India now will know what security flaws there are in the Microsoft Operating Systems. Watchdogs discover security holes in key OS components weekly, without having the source code!
Bloody Pedants !
//Getting a full system up and running with apps is far easer and much faster with Linux//
.xls, .doc, .ppt, and .mdf files with millions of people.
... if you are, then "Houston, we've got a problem."
You must be kidding, or you're completely delusional.
Two nights ago, on a *TWO YEAR OLD* system, I setup WinXP Home with a full install of Office XP (including Service Packs) in about 80 minutes.
I could then seamlessly share
Yah, Linux is so much easier than that.
Get a grip on reality. Nothing against Linux here, but there's *NO WAY* it's "easier" to install and get a full-blown industry-standard office suite up and running in Linux than it is in WinXP.
You say you "want an improvement."
You can't possibly think OOo is an improvement over Office Xp
- -- --- --- -- - Frammin' at the jim-jam, frippin' at the krotz!
1) All Indian programmers will be unable to work on Open Source projects, because they "might be pirating Microsoft Intellectual Property".
2) India may/will have the code that some MS exec told the judge was "so buggy we can't open the source for fear of bringing down Civilisation".
3) Corrolary to #1 is that all programmers are deemed tainted by access to Microsoft IP as soon as MS can prove that the source 'escaped' from India. This will probably happen 30 seconds after they hand over the CD set, thereby effectively shutting down all Open Source projects.
Imagine what wonderful exploits will be possible when people can actually search through the source for vulnerabilities. Norton and McAfee are salivating at the prospect; I'm sure of it.
Do you feel ripped off when you buy a 25 cent pack of Wrigley's gum? Is that price totally fucking you over, at 5 cents a stick? What about when you pay less than 5 cents a stick when you buy a Plen-T-Pak? Is that a shitty value?
A good value would be the cost of production. By definition, companies have to make money -- that means fucking someone else over. Its a zero sum game: if they get, you give; they win, you lose. Or vica versa.
Operating systems are not food. Nobody *has* to buy an operating system, people *choose* to buy the operating system. The consumers know what they are buying, if they pay too much for too little, they are fucking themselves over.
Actually, yes people do have to buy MS' OS' because MS creates dependencies on them. For example, the word document format. MS has done everything they can to make sure that their 90% of the market finds it impossible to switch over to any other OS.
And finally, what evidence do you have that Microsoft will do what you say they will do?
Ever heard the parable about the scorpion and the fox? Its in Microsoft's nature to fuck everyone else over: the consumer, competitors, the government, anyone. Its what they do. That's the nature of an illegal monopoly. It's been shown that they have illegally used their power as a monopoly to find unfair and anti-competitive ways to crush their competition. They're showing us here in the US that they'll fuck every other business over (look at their new forced upgrade model, which will cost business' much more money).
That's evidence enough that they'll do what I say. They have a history of doing it.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Honestly, what good is the source code to a Microsoft product anyhow? You'll just open it up, look at it, shake your head and say "Man, that's fucked up". I guess it might be good for a laugh or two...
So... taking a profit on a transaction equals "fucking the customer over?" 'Cause, you know, I'm just trying to add new entries into my English-dh003i, dh003i-English dictionary over here.
I write in my journal
If you don't believe me, note that strcpy() occurs 1,110 times in the Linux 2.4.8 kernel. Start looking.
Like I said, its a zero sum game.
In most transactions that occur, one party gets fucked over, unless by chance its an exactly equal transaction. Either the customer pays more than something's worth or the producer gets less than its worth.
If businesses weren't maintaining a net gain in their area, they wouldn't be in business (or at least, not for long). If the business has a net gain -- accounting for the cost of production and R&D -- then that means the consumer has a net loss.
Of course, there is always the Pareto-Superior outcome to consider. The customer has money, but values the product more than his money (because of what the product can do for the customer); the company has the product, but values the money more than the product (because it has millions of copies of this product). Thus, in a transaction both parties are getting what they want.
However, that still doesn't negate the basic facts of transaction. In any transaction, one party is trying to fuck the other party over as much as possible. Equilibrium (thus, a transaction) is achieved when each party believes they've fucked the other party over enough.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
*as it currently is* a "trade secret" is simply a protected original work which you have not published.
I'm sorry, but there's simply no issue here. The so called "incompatibility" with trade secret law is not one of contradiction, but rather one where the legal ramifications of trade secret law * no longer apply.*
You are perhaps thinking of patents rather than copyrights. For a patent to be valid it is required to make a *public revelation* of the invention. Thus some companies choose *not* to patent and rely on trade secret "law" ( which is case, not code).
*No such pulic revelation* is required for a work to be copyrighted. Hence the lack of conflict with trade secret law.
KFG
Brain cell? Please meet my other brain cell.
Would you two mind rubbing together once in a while, please?
KFG
even more seriously than it does Linux. What do you think the real point of the "browser wars" was?
One can write a complete system, GUI and apps, in java that runs in any browser.
Three quarters of the ".NET" idea is simply to subvert this possibility and lock people in to a Microsoft version before someone else impliments it.
Personally, I don't like Java. I think the code is clunky and ugly, but that's because I'm mathmatically trained and *prefer* "arcane" code notations that look like scribbles on the blackboard.
But for the most part Java works and with every iteration of Moore's law becomes more viable as a main system language.
KFG
What you are failing to take into account is that the consumer with money works for a company, which pays him or her a salary, so the money is recycled. So how is it zero sum?
evil adrian
Both parties can win. Let's say that I'm good at making furniture and you're not. I can make a chair for $20 (parts and labour), you'd put that much into parts alone (wastage) and then much extra time, trying to come up to speed. If I sell you the chair for $30 it's still less than it would cost you to make it, but I profit from it as well.
Not all profit is a "fucking over". If I don't make more than $20 per chair, I starve (or rather, quit making chairs and start farming). Even "profit" over and above expenses often goes towards future expenses (retirement) and everyone has the right to self-enrichment, as long as they don't do it at the expense of others.
The "fucking over" comes when I make a chair for $10, and sell it for $90, keeping you from undercutting me by telling my suppliers that if they sell supplies to you I'll stop dealing with them, thus causing them (as I'm the biggest customer) to go bankrupt. Additional fucking over comes when the chair has a "license agreement" printed on the bottom saying that only one person is ever allowed to sit in a chair, other people need other chairs, even if there're empty chairs available.
You're right that economics (in the long run) is zero-sum. In a closed system, more value can't be invented, but the world is a long way from being a closed system and with potential space industry, etc, it may never be. Have you heard the phrase "A rising tide floats all boats"? In a non-closed economy it's true. If I make my customers wealthy, they'll have more money to spend, hopefully to spend on my products.
You're right that economics (in the long run) is zero-sum.
Oops. That's not true. Economics is the textbook example of a non-zero-sum game. Consider Van Gogh's "Sunflowers." He took some paint, some wood, and some canvas and made something that is worth millions upon millions of dollars. Another person given the exact same tools and materials might produce a work that's worth a hundred bucks. Another person might produce something that's actually worth less than the value of the materials that went into it.
Or consider another example: food. A meal in a restaurant costs $X. The exact same set of ingredients, prepared poorly, can result in an inedible mess, value $0.
Value is created and destroyed every day. The economy is about as non-zero-sum as it gets.
I write in my journal
Okay. So long as I understand your meaning. When you say "fuck the customer over," what you mean is "take a profit." Check.
I write in my journal
Yep, if you've taken a profit off of a transaction, that means the other person somehow took a loss: in other words, (s)he got fucked over.
Of course, that's the whole principal behind a capitalistic system: its what keeps the system going, and its worked pretty well so far (observe the US' high standard of living).
Of course, MS goes the extra mile to fuck over their customers and everyone else both on the transaction and in any other way MS can come up with.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
simple economics. no kickbacks from free software. sugardaddy worldbank wouldnt like linux anyways.
more likely gates was also pitching for palladium orwell hardware as well, which brings a glad tear to the eyes of all bureaucrats and officials and makes their "work" easier. "show us a free palladium ! you dont have one? then sorry".
until they understand the hard way, of course.
It appears that every country that threatens to make Linux their primary OS, gets the Microsoft Source code.
a me =News&file=article&sid=217
Maybe Sealand should threaten to make Linux their national OS.
http://www.glug.org.za/modules.php?op=modload&n
Isn't it just so wonderfully convenient that this offer comes right as a large nation like India is considering teaching Linux in their schools.
I can write in my resume
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
What will happen is that Microsoft will craft some cosmetically tasty deal that pays lip service to open source but with hidden strings that will make the overall package fall far short of the utility of truly free software. These hidden strings will completely escape the notice of the government officials who are unlikely to be sufficiently paranoid about Microsoft's intentions and insufficiently knowledgeable about software in general.
Anyway this apparently tasty deal will be offered under the condition that it has to be agreed to within a very short time frame - possibly with extra conditions of secrecy - but in any event the overall effect will be to render it impossible for the terms to be subjected to any kind of informed public scrutiny at least until the deal has been signed.
Note that the foregoing makes no damning assumptions about the probity of the individuals concerned. It could all take place just as I've outlined with no dirty money changing hands.
We all know that the Indian mnisters & civil servants involved would much rather be seen to have cut an apparently great deal with nice, shiny, modern rich Western Microsoft than be seen to have to settle for the cheap option. After all that's the way it is: it's all about how it will seem to them, how they think they will be seen by others of their own clique, than it is about the substance of such a deal or how it will appear to a bunch of troublesome leftist intellectuals and geeky engineer types.
The problem is a fundamental one, too big to be overcome in a single small issue like this one. It is all about how societies allow themselves to be governed. It is about where we allow ministers to make grand decisions and civil servants to implement them, without adequate public accountability every step of the way.
The alarming reality is that most modern governments (even in the US, the UK and Australia and very probably in India too) are in practice no more democratic nor less high-handed and patrician now than their forebears of the early 19th Century were. This will not change anywhere until the people demand it en masse. i.e. it will require more than the geekiest 2% of the population to make a stand before anything can happen.
* dpkg hands stu a huge glass of vbeer ;)
* Joey takes the beer from stu, you're too young
* Cylord takes the beer from Joey, you're too drunk.
* Cylord gives the beer to muggles.
-- #Debian, celebrating the 5th anniversary
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