Jesus never left Judaism? What do you do with all the Gospel passages such as the Sermon on the Mount (you have heard...but I say unto you...), or the Great Commission that requires baptism and doesn't mention circumcision, the passages indicating his body was the new temple which people would worship in spirit and truth instead of this or that mountain, that he was given for the whole world as opposed to only the seed of Abraham--many of the religious leaders of which he called seed of Satan, saying their father was the Devil? And you don't think he knew/taught that Communion was the final culminiation of Passover and similar OT festivals/celebrations, that his sacrifice would be sufficient so as to put an end to animal sacrifices formerly performed year after year, that by his active obedience to God's Law and his substitutiary death/atonement/resurrection that he was *ultimately* fulfilling the requirements of the law, transforming/completing/finalizing once and for all time all the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects?
The book of John was the last of the gospels written- and Christ didn't write anything. As Bishop of Antioch (see the opening passages of the Book of Revelations) writing AFTER the fall of Jerusalem, chances are that the theology in that last Gospel is NOT neccessarily the theology of Christ, but the theology of a Church trying to distance itself from Judaism before what happened to the Zealots happened to Christianity as well. This is another case of not understanding the traditional culture- of Sola Scriptura telling only half the story.
Do we decide the moment we die if we will go to Purgatory, which you say always leads to Heaven eventually, or decide not to convert and so go to Hell instead?
We can decide before then- we don't have to wait.
Or is your Hell simply another name for Purgatory and so it's not true that Purgatory always leads to Heaven?
Purgatory always leads to Heaven which is eternity with God. Hell is eternity *without* God.
How does your view reconcile with the eternal lake of fire and the "weeping and knashing of teeth" in Hell?
A poetic description of the pain of being separated from God for eternity.
So are you saying that Catcholic Priests are available "to help" us perform the Sacrements, or is their personal presence, participation, and officiating necessary and essential?
Depends on the sacrament- but it's neccessary because they are trained in the proper formation of the sacraments yes. By depends on the Sacrament: Baptism can be done by any Christian in extreme circumstances. So can Reconciliation (the old name is Confession) or Annointing of the Sick (old name, Last Rites). Eucharist requires a priest because there's work to be done in it's preparation. Marriage requires a deacon or a priest as a witness and to teach the proper formation, but the actual sacramental work is done by the couple involved and takes a lifetime. Confirmation is an act of conversion by the person involved, the priest or the Bishop merely acts as a witness. Ordanation to the deconate or the priesthood requires a Bishop, but that's more a matter of church discipline than help with the sacrament, for the person has already heard the call and said yes.
Can an ordained Christian pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/shepherd pray for the elements, lift them over his head, and pray for God's grace and blessing? Are Catholic Priests required for Transubstantiation?
Only Catholic Priests with valid Apostolic Succession are trained in the proper formation of the Sacrament of the Eucharist- all others are play acting.
It was big news at the time- I was in college back then- and widely reported as one of the bigger scientific goof ups in that movie. It wasn't merely a sublight engine either- it was a chemical-based rocket launched from the planet...complete with smoke trail!
The practice of the Christian Church in Jerusalem wasn't syncretizing with or getting back to the distinctions of Judaism.
Jesus was lawfull by Jewish standards- it's hard to "get back to" something you never left. It was Peter and Paul and the Western Church that went their own way.
I wouldn't believe most of what you do if I were experientially suprised by the existence of Purgatory and then sat there under the punishme...uh...tutelege...of Catholics for days, decades, or centuries.
Nope. That's not what Purgatory is. Purgatory is merely a traditional name for Paul's "Trial by Fire" that every soul must go through to get to Heaven- and it will take however long it will take for your soul to be prepared for heaven, no more, no less. It's not punishment- it's rapture, it's conversion, it's becoming the perfection needed to join in Heaven. Every soul that enters into Purgatory- here or at the moment of death, because the Saints have proven to us that one can do the conversion in this life- is going to Heaven. The only way to get to heaven is to repent of sin and enter this conversion, to become Christ for other people. Hell isn't punishment either- it's simply choosing NOT to convert, not to become one with Christ and with God- and thus, at the end, God says "Not my will but yours be done" and consigns you to your sin. Punishment is something men do to each other- God's above punishment and retribution. It is God's will that NOBODY ever go to hell. But it's possible, because of our free will, that some choose to ignore God's wishes in this matter.
Are you saying salvific grace and/or spiritual food is only attained through experiencing "the Purgatory of Christ" but perhaps more quickly via Priest-officiated Sacraments?
More that- anybody can experience purgatory and be being saved. Even Pagans (the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentiumm, tells us that there is nowhere in the world now that the Gospel has not reached- maybe not by name, but the Forgiveness of Christ has been found by missionaries in every tribe, in every nation, in every culture in the world). By Tradition, Christ gave us the Seven Sacraments to help us on the Journey. All of the sacraments are between us and Christ- the priest is just there to help us do them properly. But all must take the Journey- the Journey cannot be avoided, even by atheists- in the moment of death the purgatory they have avoided their entire lives will come, and they too will be asked to choose between Hell and Heaven, between sin and God.
I do link the Christian church in Jerusalem to non-Papal Christianity; why your mention of Judaism?
Look at what the Christian Church in Jerusalem was teaching at the time of the Council of Jerusalem: All Christians should follow the laws of the Torah, Gentiles must convert to Judaism and be circumcised to become Christian, all dietary laws must be followed, and the Sabbath observance at the Temple (and all other Holy Days) must be attended to. If you're linking to the Church of James in Jerusalem, that's what the Episcopate was teaching right up until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That's why I would consider the Christian Church in Jerusalem to be a sect of Judaism.
Which part, if any, of the whole story that "those people are NOT hearing" could prevent them from currently being regenerate Christians going to Heaven upon death (rather than Hades/Purgatory/Hell)?
According to the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance and John Paul II's 1999 explainaiton thereof, it is our fervant prayer as a worldwide church that nobody will ever choose to go to Hell. Likewise, Purgatory is not a place, but a stage, a neccessary step on the Journey to Heaven- you can either experience it in this life or the moment of death, but experience it you must to get to Heaven; but all Christians should know that the experience of Purgatory is temporal and temporary- Heaven is the ultimate destination of all who experience Purgatory. Thus, there is nothing that can be missing that will prevent you from experiencing Purgatory and Heaven if you choose to be with God- because your experience of Purgatory will fill in the missing details.
Can a non-RC/EO church (eg, with no Catholic Priest) host/officiate/legitimately practice/experience/receive grace from/etc the Sacrament of Communion?
No- but such grace is only one way to experience the Purgatory of Christ, and is certainly NOT the only way.
Is righteousness legally and definitevely imputed/declared or rather progressively imparted/infused through Priest-officiated Sacraments?
The priest is only the Altar Vicarius Christus- the man standing in Christ's place. Priests who have valid Apostolic Succession fullfill Peter's role in feeding the lambs of Christ- it is Christ doing the Sacraments.
How those of us that reject the office of Pope and are members of the Body of Christ through membership in a local Christian Church (Trinitarian, upholds imputation of sins to Jesus who died for us and now reigns as Lord, etc.) with the office of Elder/Bishop/Overseer/Pastor/Shepherd and of Deacons (both offices as given to the church in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1) whom administer the Sacraments of Baptism and Communion (bread & wine preferably every Lord's Day) and practice necessary church discipline (keys of the Kingdom), etc., and hear the preaching of the whole of God's Word and especially the NT (and especially Peter's epistles and Paul's Books of Romans and Galatians) can still be considered a sect or cult of Judaism or of some such "Pre-Pope Peter Christianity" by someone, that someone is both wrong and hellbound.
I'm not the one who tried to link non-Papal Christianity to the Church in Jerusalem. But I'd point out that the norm became the Church in Rome, through whatever means- and due to that there's a huge break between Paul's letters and the Protestant Reformation. And past the Protestant Reformation- Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide cut out a huge portion of God's Word, and thus, those people are NOT hearing the whole story.
Ok, I'm wrong or I've jumped universes again. Yet another thing that was anounced with great fanfare in the paper and on the news 10 years ago turned out to be false. This happens to me with disturbing regularity.
I'm sure you could take a rocket casing, coating with toxic and flammable chemicals
In vacuum, you don't have to worry about the toxicity of the chemicals. You're also ignoring the idea of using remote control robots for this work, but that's understandible. But the real key here is that you're talking about learned skills (either with the spacesuit or running the robotics) and for that, how do we know before we try? Luckily we've already tried- and succeeded. See the discussion above- click on parent twice and read the thread.
Damn- minutes/seconds, units of time, I'm getting as bad as Aahz. I think I was thinking of Star Trek Generations and got mixed up (11 seconds from an earthlike planet to it's star with a sublight engine....).
Peter reported to James (Acts 12:17) obeyed James (Acts 15: 13-22) deferred to James (Acts 21:18) and feared James (Galatians 2:12).
And James' branch of Christianity ended soon after that- with the fall of Jerusalem and the Diaspora of the Jews. It was recently resurrected in the Jews for Jesus movement, but that's less than 30 years old- and the Councils almost all uniformly went against James after the first (and even that first one, it was Peter's way that prevailed- else Christianity would never have gone beyond being a sect of Judaism).
Though the rest of your examples are exactly why I debate such things with people I disagree with- I never noticed before that Catholicism vs Judaism is EXACTLY the same sort of fight as Sunni and Shiite Muslims, or for that matter Jack Mormons and Later Day Saints (whether or not control imediately after the death of an early cult leader passes to a blood relative, or a chosen representative). I'm going to have to do more research on that- see if I can find any parallels in any other religions.
The last resort of the impractical. This is a problem we have right now. Maybe in another 100 years we can think of doing all the things you're talking about, but right now the idea of manufacturing space station parts ON the space station from junk is ridiculous. Nasa believies we need to solve the problem soon, not when some pie-in-the-sky idea of recycling space junk in orbit becomes practical.
That's funny- because a large portion of the current international space station is made from recycled junk right now. It was planned to from the begining- because it's pretty easy NOT to jettison external fuel tanks on the space shuttle- and they make nice habitats. In other words, not only is it practical, we've already been doing it to a smaller degree.
Also, what's the hurry? The longer we wait, the less there will be...orbits will degrade, stuff will burn up. And when you think about it- this is a sphere shell 300 km wide, on the outside of the earth. 13,000 pieces of space junk in that volume of space requires some carefull planing, yes, but it's not quite the hazard you'd think.
This is space- and we've got a nice big heat source less than 9 light seconds away. A big magnifying glass makes a great foundry under those conditions; especially in a vaccuum where the heat isn't going to disipate except by radiation.
something else to fold it into usefull shapes
Something like say, a sheet press? Or just propel the molten material to where you need it, wait for raidative cooling to harden it, and leave it in place. Or mold it.
and welding equipment to put it together in the space station
Which we've already got in place- to put together the space station....
The whole idea that a used 30 year old rocket motor is going to be usefull for someone in a damn space station is ridiculous.
That's the idea- we don't need no imagination as long as we can label things as being ridiculous!
if you could somehow find a cheap way of bringing it back to earth un-damaged?
This phrase alone suggests that you failed to understand the concept. The point isn't to find a use for this stuff back on EARTH- but rather to find a use for it where it is, in orbit. Raw material for new rooms on the International Space Station perhaps?
I find it hard to believe the early Catholic church picked Peter as the start for papal sucession. Jesus called him a mere pebble and said he would build the church on the rock (Jesus is the connerstone). Peter was publicly rebuked by both Jesus and Paul. He was the Apostle to the Jews while Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles including Rome: "I am under obligation both to Greeks and to non-Greeks, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome."
And yet- that interpretation is completely outside of any tradition for the first 1500 years of the Church's existance. I wonder why? Could it be because it's entirely a creation of the Protestant Reformation- and has no validity for the people who actually WROTE the scriptures?
It doesn't take a genius, Creed, Council, Confession, Tradition, or Pope for a common reader to put the pieces together while hearing or reading the source material.
I never said it did- these things are required only to eliminate alternate interpretations. On the Trinity, have you ever discussed it with a Oneness Pentecostal? They are as certain as you that their interpretation is correct- and Sola Scriptura is not sufficient to choose between interpretations. If you ever read Vatican I's definition of the doctrine of infallibility- you'd know it's more about when the Popes, Creeds, Councils etc are fallible then when they're infallible. I hope that the Church NEVER teaches something that isn't obvious when you read all of their documents and debates about it- which is also another thing I like about the older religions, because they've had the time for such debates. Going back to the original subject- older sects are more scientific, more conservative, less likely to come out with something strange.
The same type of argument can be used by Protestants following the ecumenical Creeds, the Councils such as the explicit sovereignty of God in all things such as prayer as stated in the Council of Orange, and the Confessions of the Reformation: Westminster, the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, The Heidelberg Catechism, The Canons of Dordt), etc.
To a certain extent yes- though the Council of Orange happened under the Pope at a time when the church was unified. But I'd point out that this is all Tradition, not Scripture- so thus Protestants following these other traditions are just as unbiblical as the Pope.
Don't even Catholic scholars consider the members of that seminar to be self-deceived idiots?
Well, actually there were a large number of Catholic Scholars in that group- about 1/3rd of the scholars invited were Catholic. But yes, the Vatican does not accept their work. My only point in bringing them up was that age of the scriptures is quite wide indeed- they're one of the most extreme points I know of- and their evidence for dating things is no worse than anybody else's. BTW, my example of Dante's La Divina Comedia was chosen on purpose- it held a copyright date of 1300 (before Innocent's death) but copies didn't start showing up until 1310 at the earliest (after Innocent's death). A more recent example, granted- but it shows that using prophecies of the past was well known among pre-enlightenment authors.
But there's no automatic resolution table between $name and RFID tags used for inventory control. Who is entering this information? Postgres and other databases can't read minds- if somebody buys something for cash containing an RFID tag, you can track that item- but you don't know who the person is.
The best bet is "We've raised $900 and have pledge letters from these 78 companies to support us"- then they won't call security.
Either that- or grab another example from science fiction and insert pictures of dry corn cobs into the signal of their test market with a competing illegal broadcast tower every time a toilet paper commercial comes on- until they start choosing the type of programming you want:-).
There is security in numbers- just think of the information overflow in trying to find records for a single tag in logs of billions of tags passing a given point!
So it follows that given the average human lifespan of (say) 25,000 days we sould expect to see an average of 4000 exploding backpacks per day. Give me a fucking break, please!
Actually- if it wasn't for preventative actions such as Guantanamo Jail, security screening to detect the backpacks *before* they explode, wiretaping to catch people while they're making plans, and a major offensive that is drawing the remining three or four attacks every day (successful and unsuccessful) in Iraq, that's probably what we'd be seeing. I hate to say it- but as much as I think Bush's strategy is inadequate at best, it does seem to be rather effective so far- about 90% effective. Too bad non-exploding backpacks packed with explosives rarely make national news.
And if those 20 minutes were used during the episode(s) in question, it's guaranteed that 20 minutes of informercials about the show's fans would drive any new viewers away real quickly. I love the show and thought the movie was pretty good, too, but this idea just doesn't sit too well with me.
You already sit through 20 minutes of infomercials about the show's fans for any given show on network TV- the only difference is that those "fans" are helping to pay their way by selling you unrelated goods.
Well then, I guess we could both agree that the recent "Evangelical and Catholics Together" documents on unity and essential similarity are a bunch of crap : )
I'd go much further than that- they are a direct fraud by the Republican Party to get Christians to vote against social justice issues by focusing on life issues. This can be seen by all of the "essential similarities" being life issues- but what those documents ignore is an essential difference on the life issues of war and the death penalty (the Catholic version of pro-life calls unjust war and unneccessary application of the death penalty to be as big of a sin as abortion or euthanasia- and in fact, the same sin, disrespect for human life).
Search Amazon.com for "systematic theology" and tell me the ratio of Catholic to Protestant authors and which one, if any, finds basis for the Trinity only in Tradition.
Actually, this argument has been the major case against Sola Scriptura for 500 years now. Every one of the Catholic Appologetics websites points out that the word "Trinity" cannot be found in scripture, and while there are disparate hints when taken out of context towards that view (like Christ saying "I will send you MY spirit" in the promise of Pentecost, or "I and the Father are of one mind" elsehwhere) the Trinity itself wasn't actually set as doctrine until the Council of Nicea- well into the Papal era.
And Catholics have unified theology? Since when? Many Catholic churches could care less about the Papal bull from Rome, Mariology, praying to saints, etc., and there's the pre-Council of Trent reformed/conservative Catholics, the pre-Vatican II Catholics, etc., with Catholics (such as Mel Gibson) waiting for the RCC to acknowledge recent mistakes.
Real Roman Catholics recognize that Vatican II was an ecumenical council- and thus is binding. The heretical extremes are not important- the wide center follows the Pope, First Among Equals, the Vicarius Fillis Christus.
As for book dating, even the liberals think the last book was written circa AD 96,
The Jesus Seminar places both the Gospel of John and Revelations in the 120s, due to the advanced theology and "predictions" of history contained therein (The Book of Revelations, for instance, contains historical details of the Persecution of Nero and the Fall of Jerusalem). I don't think there's any way to know at this point.
but it's obvious that it pre-dated the phrophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Yeah, like it's obvious that Dante's inferno "pre-dated" the death of Pope Innocent III. It's easy to prophecy the past.
Seems to me a way around the legal issues on this sort of thing would be to go to the network that owns the rights from the start- and say "When our website earns enough money, we will buy 20 minutes of advertising on your network for each episode you are able to produce". Then all the commercials could be stories about the donation process, with the web address to donate at...bet it would pay for itself after the first episode went on the air.
Protestants ARE cultists to me; they haven't been around long enough yet to be considered a real religion, and Sola Scriptura prevents them from having a unified doctrine to begin with. The Trinity is a problem under Sola Scriptura- hinted at, but without the holy traditions of the Eastern or Roman Church, not included in scripture itself. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman churches can at least lay claim to having been around for more than 500 years- and in fact, predate scripture by at least 30 years, perhaps a century, depending on whose carbon dating you believe and which book of scripture you're talking about.
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That the CPU can run at a lower voltage- or that voltage of the CPU on a modern motherboard is SOFTWARE Selectable.
Beer can be made with an incredible variety of grains- malt is not neccessary to good beer making any more than hops really are.
Why not just plant crops that come from hotter, dryer, climates? Or if the other climate model prediciton comes true, shorter, colder growing seasons?
Jesus never left Judaism? What do you do with all the Gospel passages such as the Sermon on the Mount (you have heard...but I say unto you...), or the Great Commission that requires baptism and doesn't mention circumcision, the passages indicating his body was the new temple which people would worship in spirit and truth instead of this or that mountain, that he was given for the whole world as opposed to only the seed of Abraham--many of the religious leaders of which he called seed of Satan, saying their father was the Devil? And you don't think he knew/taught that Communion was the final culminiation of Passover and similar OT festivals/celebrations, that his sacrifice would be sufficient so as to put an end to animal sacrifices formerly performed year after year, that by his active obedience to God's Law and his substitutiary death/atonement/resurrection that he was *ultimately* fulfilling the requirements of the law, transforming/completing/finalizing once and for all time all the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects?
The book of John was the last of the gospels written- and Christ didn't write anything. As Bishop of Antioch (see the opening passages of the Book of Revelations) writing AFTER the fall of Jerusalem, chances are that the theology in that last Gospel is NOT neccessarily the theology of Christ, but the theology of a Church trying to distance itself from Judaism before what happened to the Zealots happened to Christianity as well. This is another case of not understanding the traditional culture- of Sola Scriptura telling only half the story.
Do we decide the moment we die if we will go to Purgatory, which you say always leads to Heaven eventually, or decide not to convert and so go to Hell instead?
We can decide before then- we don't have to wait.
Or is your Hell simply another name for Purgatory and so it's not true that Purgatory always leads to Heaven?
Purgatory always leads to Heaven which is eternity with God. Hell is eternity *without* God.
How does your view reconcile with the eternal lake of fire and the "weeping and knashing of teeth" in Hell?
A poetic description of the pain of being separated from God for eternity.
So are you saying that Catcholic Priests are available "to help" us perform the Sacrements, or is their personal presence, participation, and officiating necessary and essential?
Depends on the sacrament- but it's neccessary because they are trained in the proper formation of the sacraments yes. By depends on the Sacrament: Baptism can be done by any Christian in extreme circumstances. So can Reconciliation (the old name is Confession) or Annointing of the Sick (old name, Last Rites). Eucharist requires a priest because there's work to be done in it's preparation. Marriage requires a deacon or a priest as a witness and to teach the proper formation, but the actual sacramental work is done by the couple involved and takes a lifetime. Confirmation is an act of conversion by the person involved, the priest or the Bishop merely acts as a witness. Ordanation to the deconate or the priesthood requires a Bishop, but that's more a matter of church discipline than help with the sacrament, for the person has already heard the call and said yes.
Can an ordained Christian pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/shepherd pray for the elements, lift them over his head, and pray for God's grace and blessing? Are Catholic Priests required for Transubstantiation?
Only Catholic Priests with valid Apostolic Succession are trained in the proper formation of the Sacrament of the Eucharist- all others are play acting.
It was big news at the time- I was in college back then- and widely reported as one of the bigger scientific goof ups in that movie. It wasn't merely a sublight engine either- it was a chemical-based rocket launched from the planet...complete with smoke trail!
The practice of the Christian Church in Jerusalem wasn't syncretizing with or getting back to the distinctions of Judaism.
Jesus was lawfull by Jewish standards- it's hard to "get back to" something you never left. It was Peter and Paul and the Western Church that went their own way.
I wouldn't believe most of what you do if I were experientially suprised by the existence of Purgatory and then sat there under the punishme...uh...tutelege...of Catholics for days, decades, or centuries.
Nope. That's not what Purgatory is. Purgatory is merely a traditional name for Paul's "Trial by Fire" that every soul must go through to get to Heaven- and it will take however long it will take for your soul to be prepared for heaven, no more, no less. It's not punishment- it's rapture, it's conversion, it's becoming the perfection needed to join in Heaven. Every soul that enters into Purgatory- here or at the moment of death, because the Saints have proven to us that one can do the conversion in this life- is going to Heaven. The only way to get to heaven is to repent of sin and enter this conversion, to become Christ for other people. Hell isn't punishment either- it's simply choosing NOT to convert, not to become one with Christ and with God- and thus, at the end, God says "Not my will but yours be done" and consigns you to your sin. Punishment is something men do to each other- God's above punishment and retribution. It is God's will that NOBODY ever go to hell. But it's possible, because of our free will, that some choose to ignore God's wishes in this matter.
Are you saying salvific grace and/or spiritual food is only attained through experiencing "the Purgatory of Christ" but perhaps more quickly via Priest-officiated Sacraments?
More that- anybody can experience purgatory and be being saved. Even Pagans (the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentiumm, tells us that there is nowhere in the world now that the Gospel has not reached- maybe not by name, but the Forgiveness of Christ has been found by missionaries in every tribe, in every nation, in every culture in the world). By Tradition, Christ gave us the Seven Sacraments to help us on the Journey. All of the sacraments are between us and Christ- the priest is just there to help us do them properly. But all must take the Journey- the Journey cannot be avoided, even by atheists- in the moment of death the purgatory they have avoided their entire lives will come, and they too will be asked to choose between Hell and Heaven, between sin and God.
I do link the Christian church in Jerusalem to non-Papal Christianity; why your mention of Judaism?
Look at what the Christian Church in Jerusalem was teaching at the time of the Council of Jerusalem: All Christians should follow the laws of the Torah, Gentiles must convert to Judaism and be circumcised to become Christian, all dietary laws must be followed, and the Sabbath observance at the Temple (and all other Holy Days) must be attended to. If you're linking to the Church of James in Jerusalem, that's what the Episcopate was teaching right up until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That's why I would consider the Christian Church in Jerusalem to be a sect of Judaism.
Which part, if any, of the whole story that "those people are NOT hearing" could prevent them from currently being regenerate Christians going to Heaven upon death (rather than Hades/Purgatory/Hell)?
According to the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance and John Paul II's 1999 explainaiton thereof, it is our fervant prayer as a worldwide church that nobody will ever choose to go to Hell. Likewise, Purgatory is not a place, but a stage, a neccessary step on the Journey to Heaven- you can either experience it in this life or the moment of death, but experience it you must to get to Heaven; but all Christians should know that the experience of Purgatory is temporal and temporary- Heaven is the ultimate destination of all who experience Purgatory. Thus, there is nothing that can be missing that will prevent you from experiencing Purgatory and Heaven if you choose to be with God- because your experience of Purgatory will fill in the missing details.
Can a non-RC/EO church (eg, with no Catholic Priest) host/officiate/legitimately practice/experience/receive grace from/etc the Sacrament of Communion?
No- but such grace is only one way to experience the Purgatory of Christ, and is certainly NOT the only way.
Is righteousness legally and definitevely imputed/declared or rather progressively imparted/infused through Priest-officiated Sacraments?
The priest is only the Altar Vicarius Christus- the man standing in Christ's place. Priests who have valid Apostolic Succession fullfill Peter's role in feeding the lambs of Christ- it is Christ doing the Sacraments.
How those of us that reject the office of Pope and are members of the Body of Christ through membership in a local Christian Church (Trinitarian, upholds imputation of sins to Jesus who died for us and now reigns as Lord, etc.) with the office of Elder/Bishop/Overseer/Pastor/Shepherd and of Deacons (both offices as given to the church in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1) whom administer the Sacraments of Baptism and Communion (bread & wine preferably every Lord's Day) and practice necessary church discipline (keys of the Kingdom), etc., and hear the preaching of the whole of God's Word and especially the NT (and especially Peter's epistles and Paul's Books of Romans and Galatians) can still be considered a sect or cult of Judaism or of some such "Pre-Pope Peter Christianity" by someone, that someone is both wrong and hellbound.
I'm not the one who tried to link non-Papal Christianity to the Church in Jerusalem. But I'd point out that the norm became the Church in Rome, through whatever means- and due to that there's a huge break between Paul's letters and the Protestant Reformation. And past the Protestant Reformation- Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide cut out a huge portion of God's Word, and thus, those people are NOT hearing the whole story.
Ok, I'm wrong or I've jumped universes again. Yet another thing that was anounced with great fanfare in the paper and on the news 10 years ago turned out to be false. This happens to me with disturbing regularity.
I'm sure you could take a rocket casing, coating with toxic and flammable chemicals
In vacuum, you don't have to worry about the toxicity of the chemicals. You're also ignoring the idea of using remote control robots for this work, but that's understandible. But the real key here is that you're talking about learned skills (either with the spacesuit or running the robotics) and for that, how do we know before we try? Luckily we've already tried- and succeeded. See the discussion above- click on parent twice and read the thread.
Damn- minutes/seconds, units of time, I'm getting as bad as Aahz. I think I was thinking of Star Trek Generations and got mixed up (11 seconds from an earthlike planet to it's star with a sublight engine....).
Peter reported to James (Acts 12:17) obeyed James (Acts 15: 13-22) deferred to James (Acts 21:18) and feared James (Galatians 2:12).
And James' branch of Christianity ended soon after that- with the fall of Jerusalem and the Diaspora of the Jews. It was recently resurrected in the Jews for Jesus movement, but that's less than 30 years old- and the Councils almost all uniformly went against James after the first (and even that first one, it was Peter's way that prevailed- else Christianity would never have gone beyond being a sect of Judaism).
Though the rest of your examples are exactly why I debate such things with people I disagree with- I never noticed before that Catholicism vs Judaism is EXACTLY the same sort of fight as Sunni and Shiite Muslims, or for that matter Jack Mormons and Later Day Saints (whether or not control imediately after the death of an early cult leader passes to a blood relative, or a chosen representative). I'm going to have to do more research on that- see if I can find any parallels in any other religions.
The last resort of the impractical. This is a problem we have right now. Maybe in another 100 years we can think of doing all the things you're talking about, but right now the idea of manufacturing space station parts ON the space station from junk is ridiculous. Nasa believies we need to solve the problem soon, not when some pie-in-the-sky idea of recycling space junk in orbit becomes practical.
That's funny- because a large portion of the current international space station is made from recycled junk right now. It was planned to from the begining- because it's pretty easy NOT to jettison external fuel tanks on the space shuttle- and they make nice habitats. In other words, not only is it practical, we've already been doing it to a smaller degree.
Also, what's the hurry? The longer we wait, the less there will be...orbits will degrade, stuff will burn up. And when you think about it- this is a sphere shell 300 km wide, on the outside of the earth. 13,000 pieces of space junk in that volume of space requires some carefull planing, yes, but it's not quite the hazard you'd think.
Unless you want to put a foundry to melt metal,
This is space- and we've got a nice big heat source less than 9 light seconds away. A big magnifying glass makes a great foundry under those conditions; especially in a vaccuum where the heat isn't going to disipate except by radiation.
something else to fold it into usefull shapes
Something like say, a sheet press? Or just propel the molten material to where you need it, wait for raidative cooling to harden it, and leave it in place. Or mold it.
and welding equipment to put it together in the space station
Which we've already got in place- to put together the space station....
The whole idea that a used 30 year old rocket motor is going to be usefull for someone in a damn space station is ridiculous.
That's the idea- we don't need no imagination as long as we can label things as being ridiculous!
if you could somehow find a cheap way of bringing it back to earth un-damaged?
This phrase alone suggests that you failed to understand the concept. The point isn't to find a use for this stuff back on EARTH- but rather to find a use for it where it is, in orbit. Raw material for new rooms on the International Space Station perhaps?
I find it hard to believe the early Catholic church picked Peter as the start for papal sucession. Jesus called him a mere pebble and said he would build the church on the rock (Jesus is the connerstone). Peter was publicly rebuked by both Jesus and Paul. He was the Apostle to the Jews while Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles including Rome: "I am under obligation both to Greeks and to non-Greeks, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome."
And yet- that interpretation is completely outside of any tradition for the first 1500 years of the Church's existance. I wonder why? Could it be because it's entirely a creation of the Protestant Reformation- and has no validity for the people who actually WROTE the scriptures?
It doesn't take a genius, Creed, Council, Confession, Tradition, or Pope for a common reader to put the pieces together while hearing or reading the source material.
I never said it did- these things are required only to eliminate alternate interpretations. On the Trinity, have you ever discussed it with a Oneness Pentecostal? They are as certain as you that their interpretation is correct- and Sola Scriptura is not sufficient to choose between interpretations. If you ever read Vatican I's definition of the doctrine of infallibility- you'd know it's more about when the Popes, Creeds, Councils etc are fallible then when they're infallible. I hope that the Church NEVER teaches something that isn't obvious when you read all of their documents and debates about it- which is also another thing I like about the older religions, because they've had the time for such debates. Going back to the original subject- older sects are more scientific, more conservative, less likely to come out with something strange.
The same type of argument can be used by Protestants following the ecumenical Creeds, the Councils such as the explicit sovereignty of God in all things such as prayer as stated in the Council of Orange, and the Confessions of the Reformation: Westminster, the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, The Heidelberg Catechism, The Canons of Dordt), etc.
To a certain extent yes- though the Council of Orange happened under the Pope at a time when the church was unified. But I'd point out that this is all Tradition, not Scripture- so thus Protestants following these other traditions are just as unbiblical as the Pope.
Don't even Catholic scholars consider the members of that seminar to be self-deceived idiots?
Well, actually there were a large number of Catholic Scholars in that group- about 1/3rd of the scholars invited were Catholic. But yes, the Vatican does not accept their work. My only point in bringing them up was that age of the scriptures is quite wide indeed- they're one of the most extreme points I know of- and their evidence for dating things is no worse than anybody else's. BTW, my example of Dante's La Divina Comedia was chosen on purpose- it held a copyright date of 1300 (before Innocent's death) but copies didn't start showing up until 1310 at the earliest (after Innocent's death). A more recent example, granted- but it shows that using prophecies of the past was well known among pre-enlightenment authors.
But there's no automatic resolution table between $name and RFID tags used for inventory control. Who is entering this information? Postgres and other databases can't read minds- if somebody buys something for cash containing an RFID tag, you can track that item- but you don't know who the person is.
The best bet is "We've raised $900 and have pledge letters from these 78 companies to support us"- then they won't call security.
:-).
Either that- or grab another example from science fiction and insert pictures of dry corn cobs into the signal of their test market with a competing illegal broadcast tower every time a toilet paper commercial comes on- until they start choosing the type of programming you want
There is security in numbers- just think of the information overflow in trying to find records for a single tag in logs of billions of tags passing a given point!
So it follows that given the average human lifespan of (say) 25,000 days we sould expect to see an average of 4000 exploding backpacks per day. Give me a fucking break, please!
Actually- if it wasn't for preventative actions such as Guantanamo Jail, security screening to detect the backpacks *before* they explode, wiretaping to catch people while they're making plans, and a major offensive that is drawing the remining three or four attacks every day (successful and unsuccessful) in Iraq, that's probably what we'd be seeing. I hate to say it- but as much as I think Bush's strategy is inadequate at best, it does seem to be rather effective so far- about 90% effective. Too bad non-exploding backpacks packed with explosives rarely make national news.
And if those 20 minutes were used during the episode(s) in question, it's guaranteed that 20 minutes of informercials about the show's fans would drive any new viewers away real quickly. I love the show and thought the movie was pretty good, too, but this idea just doesn't sit too well with me.
You already sit through 20 minutes of infomercials about the show's fans for any given show on network TV- the only difference is that those "fans" are helping to pay their way by selling you unrelated goods.
Well then, I guess we could both agree that the recent "Evangelical and Catholics Together" documents on unity and essential similarity are a bunch of crap : )
I'd go much further than that- they are a direct fraud by the Republican Party to get Christians to vote against social justice issues by focusing on life issues. This can be seen by all of the "essential similarities" being life issues- but what those documents ignore is an essential difference on the life issues of war and the death penalty (the Catholic version of pro-life calls unjust war and unneccessary application of the death penalty to be as big of a sin as abortion or euthanasia- and in fact, the same sin, disrespect for human life).
Search Amazon.com for "systematic theology" and tell me the ratio of Catholic to Protestant authors and which one, if any, finds basis for the Trinity only in Tradition.
Actually, this argument has been the major case against Sola Scriptura for 500 years now. Every one of the Catholic Appologetics websites points out that the word "Trinity" cannot be found in scripture, and while there are disparate hints when taken out of context towards that view (like Christ saying "I will send you MY spirit" in the promise of Pentecost, or "I and the Father are of one mind" elsehwhere) the Trinity itself wasn't actually set as doctrine until the Council of Nicea- well into the Papal era.
And Catholics have unified theology? Since when? Many Catholic churches could care less about the Papal bull from Rome, Mariology, praying to saints, etc., and there's the pre-Council of Trent reformed/conservative Catholics, the pre-Vatican II Catholics, etc., with Catholics (such as Mel Gibson) waiting for the RCC to acknowledge recent mistakes.
Real Roman Catholics recognize that Vatican II was an ecumenical council- and thus is binding. The heretical extremes are not important- the wide center follows the Pope, First Among Equals, the Vicarius Fillis Christus.
As for book dating, even the liberals think the last book was written circa AD 96,
The Jesus Seminar places both the Gospel of John and Revelations in the 120s, due to the advanced theology and "predictions" of history contained therein (The Book of Revelations, for instance, contains historical details of the Persecution of Nero and the Fall of Jerusalem). I don't think there's any way to know at this point.
but it's obvious that it pre-dated the phrophesied destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Yeah, like it's obvious that Dante's inferno "pre-dated" the death of Pope Innocent III. It's easy to prophecy the past.
Seems to me a way around the legal issues on this sort of thing would be to go to the network that owns the rights from the start- and say "When our website earns enough money, we will buy 20 minutes of advertising on your network for each episode you are able to produce". Then all the commercials could be stories about the donation process, with the web address to donate at...bet it would pay for itself after the first episode went on the air.
Protestants ARE cultists to me; they haven't been around long enough yet to be considered a real religion, and Sola Scriptura prevents them from having a unified doctrine to begin with. The Trinity is a problem under Sola Scriptura- hinted at, but without the holy traditions of the Eastern or Roman Church, not included in scripture itself. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman churches can at least lay claim to having been around for more than 500 years- and in fact, predate scripture by at least 30 years, perhaps a century, depending on whose carbon dating you believe and which book of scripture you're talking about.