If you jump through Suns hoops, you can indeed download the source for the JDK. It's not easy to build it, but it can be done (I've had it running some versions ago). It is just not under an open license, so you can't really do much with it, except build it and run it.
Maybe not with Suns JDK, but what about other implementations of Java? I think the SDK for Linux started out as the Blackdown project, which was Open Source and actively supported by Sun? I think there are other implementations of Java that are open source (maybe not full fledged SDKs, but I don't know). My point was that Sun doesn't prohibit Open SOurce implementations of Java. Only in some cases it prohibits using trademarks, ie afaik JBoss implements the full J2EE spec, but is not allowed to claim to be fully J2EE-compliant. Everybody knows that they are, though, so it's apparently not such a big deal.
Sorry, but I almost have to roll over laughing - you seriously think that C is more portable than Java???? Sure, most C projects you can compile on a lot of (Unix) platforms, but that is only because the developers went through a lot of hard working adapting compiler switches, making amends for the various libraries etc. If you think that's fun and it's how you want to spent your time, sure, go ahead. I guess those thousands of lines of makefiles can be written within a few mionutes, right?
Citing Internet Explorer applets that don't run in other browsers also just shows how little you know the subject. For your info: Microsoft has created it's own Java variant for IE, which of course isn't compatible with REAL Java. Don't blame Java for the stupidity of developers who fell for that ploy. And it's precisely why SUn doesn't want to make Java open - because that way they can sue competitiors who do such things, and at least try to keep Java compatible.
I'm using Java Cross platform all the time, ie I do my development on a WIndows machine, then deploy the Servlet on a Linux box - I have no problems at all with it. Frankly, I am not that concerned about my Linux box still running Java 1.1 code, either. Really, who cares - although I suspect it would actually work. True, sometimes there are incompatibilities across versions, but that's just what happens everywhere. Sometimes you just have to upgrade your stuff, such are our modern times.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think C# has any restrictions like this.
Now I'm not a specialist on the topic, but AFAIK C# is much worse - even Mono can't really implement the full spec. The Language spec of C# itself is open, but the APIs are not. And the APIs are what really matter about.NET.
What an amazing publicity stunt by Microsoft. Everybody believes that C# is free and Java is not, which is just not true. I think even the Source Code for the Java SDK has been published, I wonder if Microsoft has done the same?
I'm getting real sick and tired of having to edit esoteric scripts in every damned OSS application I want to run, which are in half a dozen different locations on a hard drive.
This is no Open SOurce Phenomenon, there are lot's of neat things in Windows XP you can only achieve by editing the registry by hand.
In theory I'd like to have transparent options, too, but maybe there are just too many of them to squeeze them all into a menu. So it's just bad luck the option you want is missing.
OTOH, maybe there is a positive side to it, users are made to understand what is going on to some extent.
Or am I mistaking the idea, that I should be using one of their Haikus in all of my mails, so that I don't get filtered? So either I have to pay them for the right to use it, or they can sue me at any time?
Interesting idea, but not likely to work. The biggest problem is that usually we can't identify the spammers anyway, so we couldn't sue them either.
Richard, I agree with your pitch on free software to some extent, but how exactly are we in the IT business going to make a living if all (or most) of the software is free in the future?
Simple, in the future developers of free software will be (deservedly) worshipped as gods, so they will get everything they want for free from the rest of the population. No need for money anymore.
...Havent we had enough of this "dangers of open source" crap?
Absolutely not! Only through open and honest (painful) discussion of the merits and weaknesses of anything can it be strengthened. If it was too weak in the first place, it will not stand up to the scrutiny- otherwise it will be strengthened.
Still, a lot of people are wasting there time with this. To me it starts sounding like the 'Evolution vs Creation' debate - at the end of the day, some people will only believe what they want to believe, and it's a waste of energy to argue with them. At least, do we have to force people to be happy?
You sound like an unreformed Windows-using home/consumer PC builder. "Just download drivers from the manufacturer's support site" is the worst possible form of providing hardware support in an operating system.
Uh, what if I want to run Linux on my Home PC, does that make me a loser?
I'm overwhelmed by the depth argumentation. Anything else you might provide in favour of Struts? I just checked the Struts User Guid, but couldn't find anything that made me want to read further. So what's the advantage of using a Struts configuration File rather than web.xml?
Personally I prefer the Framework provided by J2EE. It seems most frameworks just add a redundant layer on top of that, repeating the same functionality.
It's been a while that I took a look at Struts, but what's the main advantage of a Struts Action over a Java Servlet? I think they are actually both meant to do the same thing. As far as I remember, the Struts Actions even get the HttpServletRequest passed as a parameter.
"The free market, BTW, does the same thing. The free market (with lots of little independent companies that buy sell and trade goods) creates a mutually profitable self organizing system where people exchange ideas and grow prosperous together."
I don't understand how a market is supposed to provide that? Evolution, maybe - I'm certain that a society that manages to support free exchange of ideas will do better than one that doesn't, and eventually wipe out the other. But markets in themselves?? At the moment it doesn't look like that at all, rather the opposite tendency seems to be emerging.
Interesting idea, maybe there should be a tax for responding to spam, or it should be illegal to respond at all. That way, the target audience for spams might just go away by evolution.
I think the internet makes for a much better today. I am amazed how people can not see it. But I guess we all don't have very good memories. I almost can't remember how I did things without internet access.
Those statistics are hard to believe when everybody you know has switched to Mozilla. I wonder how reliable those stats are, given that many clients fake their identity. Most pretend to be IE (perhaps even Mozilla does it at times).
But even assuming they are correct, the fact remains that people in the know prefer Mozilla/Firebird. So it is only a matter of time untill Firebird will have the higher market share (provided Microsoft doesn't react, which somehow they don't seem to).
After all, it's the people in the know who eventually tell their friends what Browser to use.
"When a human rejects the vast majority of possible moves he's not even considering them. Pruning a search tree--what a computer is doing--entails actually exploring each move on the tree as far as it can."
No, pruning actually means cutting off a branch before exploring it, that is, not to explore it. I don't see how you would play chess without doing that. Of course it's the heuristics (to prune or not to prune) where humans and computers differ.
"If you're considering a career in R&D, you will be expected to keep your knowledge up to date by reading such journals."
I'm all for reading journals, I'm just not sure that the ACM journal is the one I should devote my time to? There's thousands of journals out there. Would be nice if there was something like a test subscription.
Is it worth being a member? I've considered at times, but the only benefit seemed to be some journal, which I wasn't sure if it would be any good. Cheaper conferences, too, but since I am not making that much money, cheaper would probably still be too expensive.
While I'm sure the issues in this case can and will be resolved, I still find the whole thing rather shocking. In a world where it's rapidly becoming illegal to be creative or productive rather than just a slaving machine, I thought the Open Source movement were the good guys.
But now it seems that they might end up being even worse than the patent sharks. Seems like what JBoss is doing is just like patenting, without the hassles of patenting. Also what is the point of Open Source, if I am not allowed to learn from it? It's becoming increasingly difficult to sort out what I am allowed to do and think, without infringing upon somebodies copyright. So the more code I look at, the more energy I have to put into avoiding to make my code look the same. This is really not what makes coding fun for me.
All very well, but imho the only thing that matters is, did you figure out how to solve it by yourself?
Re:EJB is REALLY Bitter
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Bitter EJB
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· Score: 1
What is it with people who can't even write 'Hello World' in Java? Isn't there a step by step instruction on the first two pages of the Java Tutorial? No, you don't need to read the complete Java Spec to accomplish this. I guess someone who can't even get that far should stay together from programming alltogether.
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If you jump through Suns hoops, you can indeed download the source for the JDK. It's not easy to build it, but it can be done (I've had it running some versions ago). It is just not under an open license, so you can't really do much with it, except build it and run it.
Maybe not with Suns JDK, but what about other implementations of Java? I think the SDK for Linux started out as the Blackdown project, which was Open Source and actively supported by Sun? I think there are other implementations of Java that are open source (maybe not full fledged SDKs, but I don't know). My point was that Sun doesn't prohibit Open SOurce implementations of Java. Only in some cases it prohibits using trademarks, ie afaik JBoss implements the full J2EE spec, but is not allowed to claim to be fully J2EE-compliant. Everybody knows that they are, though, so it's apparently not such a big deal.
Sorry, but I almost have to roll over laughing - you seriously think that C is more portable than Java???? Sure, most C projects you can compile on a lot of (Unix) platforms, but that is only because the developers went through a lot of hard working adapting compiler switches, making amends for the various libraries etc. If you think that's fun and it's how you want to spent your time, sure, go ahead. I guess those thousands of lines of makefiles can be written within a few mionutes, right?
Citing Internet Explorer applets that don't run in other browsers also just shows how little you know the subject. For your info: Microsoft has created it's own Java variant for IE, which of course isn't compatible with REAL Java. Don't blame Java for the stupidity of developers who fell for that ploy. And it's precisely why SUn doesn't want to make Java open - because that way they can sue competitiors who do such things, and at least try to keep Java compatible.
I'm using Java Cross platform all the time, ie I do my development on a WIndows machine, then deploy the Servlet on a Linux box - I have no problems at all with it. Frankly, I am not that concerned about my Linux box still running Java 1.1 code, either. Really, who cares - although I suspect it would actually work. True, sometimes there are incompatibilities across versions, but that's just what happens everywhere. Sometimes you just have to upgrade your stuff, such are our modern times.
...no, but if Jython were more feature complete. :)
Isn't Jython an open source project? So I guess it's up to the open source devlopers to put the money where their mouth is...
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think C# has any restrictions like this.
.NET.
Now I'm not a specialist on the topic, but AFAIK C# is much worse - even Mono can't really implement the full spec. The Language spec of C# itself is open, but the APIs are not. And the APIs are what really matter about
What an amazing publicity stunt by Microsoft. Everybody believes that C# is free and Java is not, which is just not true. I think even the Source Code for the Java SDK has been published, I wonder if Microsoft has done the same?
I'm getting real sick and tired of having to edit esoteric scripts in every damned OSS application I want to run, which are in half a dozen different locations on a hard drive.
This is no Open SOurce Phenomenon, there are lot's of neat things in Windows XP you can only achieve by editing the registry by hand.
In theory I'd like to have transparent options, too, but maybe there are just too many of them to squeeze them all into a menu. So it's just bad luck the option you want is missing.
OTOH, maybe there is a positive side to it, users are made to understand what is going on to some extent.
What if I get a Virus that sends a million emails from my account - much bigger damage if sending the email costs something.
I don't think security mechanisms exist yet that could prevent that scenario.
Or am I mistaking the idea, that I should be using one of their Haikus in all of my mails, so that I don't get filtered? So either I have to pay them for the right to use it, or they can sue me at any time?
Interesting idea, but not likely to work. The biggest problem is that usually we can't identify the spammers anyway, so we couldn't sue them either.
You make money like everything in the GNU/FOSS movement...by charging for services, installation, operation.
Doesn't sound like much fun, which is what Open Source is all about...
Richard, I agree with your pitch on free software to some extent, but how exactly are we in the IT business going to make a living if all (or most) of the software is free in the future?
Simple, in the future developers of free software will be (deservedly) worshipped as gods, so they will get everything they want for free from the rest of the population. No need for money anymore.
...Havent we had enough of this "dangers of open source" crap?
Absolutely not! Only through open and honest (painful) discussion of the merits and weaknesses of anything can it be strengthened. If it was too weak in the first place, it will not stand up to the scrutiny- otherwise it will be strengthened.
Still, a lot of people are wasting there time with this. To me it starts sounding like the 'Evolution vs Creation' debate - at the end of the day, some people will only believe what they want to believe, and it's a waste of energy to argue with them. At least, do we have to force people to be happy?
You sound like an unreformed Windows-using home/consumer PC builder. "Just download drivers from the manufacturer's support site" is the worst possible form of providing hardware support in an operating system.
Uh, what if I want to run Linux on my Home PC, does that make me a loser?
I'm overwhelmed by the depth argumentation. Anything else you might provide in favour of Struts? I just checked the Struts User Guid, but couldn't find anything that made me want to read further. So what's the advantage of using a Struts configuration File rather than web.xml?
Just curious...
Personally I prefer the Framework provided by J2EE. It seems most frameworks just add a redundant layer on top of that, repeating the same functionality.
It's been a while that I took a look at Struts, but what's the main advantage of a Struts Action over a Java Servlet? I think they are actually both meant to do the same thing. As far as I remember, the Struts Actions even get the HttpServletRequest passed as a parameter.
ROFL! Let's start a standardization group for raster images in xml ;-)
"The free market, BTW, does the same thing. The free market (with lots of little independent companies that buy sell and trade goods) creates a mutually profitable self organizing system where people exchange ideas and grow prosperous together."
I don't understand how a market is supposed to provide that? Evolution, maybe - I'm certain that a society that manages to support free exchange of ideas will do better than one that doesn't, and eventually wipe out the other. But markets in themselves?? At the moment it doesn't look like that at all, rather the opposite tendency seems to be emerging.
Interesting idea, maybe there should be a tax for responding to spam, or it should be illegal to respond at all. That way, the target audience for spams might just go away by evolution.
I think the internet makes for a much better today. I am amazed how people can not see it. But I guess we all don't have very good memories. I almost can't remember how I did things without internet access.
"So everyone you know uses Mozilla therefore it must be very popular? Irrefutable logic. +5 Insightful."
Well, it's a statistical sample, after all. Admitedly it's biased, but still.
Those statistics are hard to believe when everybody you know has switched to Mozilla. I wonder how reliable those stats are, given that many clients fake their identity. Most pretend to be IE (perhaps even Mozilla does it at times).
But even assuming they are correct, the fact remains that people in the know prefer Mozilla/Firebird. So it is only a matter of time untill Firebird will have the higher market share (provided Microsoft doesn't react, which somehow they don't seem to).
After all, it's the people in the know who eventually tell their friends what Browser to use.
"When a human rejects the vast majority of possible moves he's not even considering them. Pruning a search tree--what a computer is doing--entails actually exploring each move on the tree as far as it can."
No, pruning actually means cutting off a branch before exploring it, that is, not to explore it. I don't see how you would play chess without doing that. Of course it's the heuristics (to prune or not to prune) where humans and computers differ.
"If you're considering a career in R&D, you will be expected to keep your knowledge up to date by reading such journals."
I'm all for reading journals, I'm just not sure that the ACM journal is the one I should devote my time to? There's thousands of journals out there. Would be nice if there was something like a test subscription.
Is it worth being a member? I've considered at times, but the only benefit seemed to be some journal, which I wasn't sure if it would be any good. Cheaper conferences, too, but since I am not making that much money, cheaper would probably still be too expensive.
While I'm sure the issues in this case can and will be resolved, I still find the whole thing rather shocking. In a world where it's rapidly becoming illegal to be creative or productive rather than just a slaving machine, I thought the Open Source movement were the good guys.
But now it seems that they might end up being even worse than the patent sharks. Seems like what JBoss is doing is just like patenting, without the hassles of patenting. Also what is the point of Open Source, if I am not allowed to learn from it? It's becoming increasingly difficult to sort out what I am allowed to do and think, without infringing upon somebodies copyright. So the more code I look at, the more energy I have to put into avoiding to make my code look the same. This is really not what makes coding fun for me.
All very well, but imho the only thing that matters is, did you figure out how to solve it by yourself?
What is it with people who can't even write 'Hello World' in Java? Isn't there a step by step instruction on the first two pages of the Java Tutorial? No, you don't need to read the complete Java Spec to accomplish this. I guess someone who can't even get that far should stay together from programming alltogether.