Oh, I understand that. The problem I have with it is the number of files you would have to represent. How do you overcome that? With a separate XML file at either the folder or the file level. But that adds yet another layer that the os has to handle on file moves, creates, deletes, etc... Just another speed bump in the process, as far as I can tell.
I think you're right. My thoughts on that, though, were still related to a bloated filesystem, in that the XML doc, unless each file or folder has a separate doc, will get bloated, and take a great amount of time to parse. I have two 40GB HD's on my main PC at home, and probably have a combined 15GB of space available. I wouldn't venture a guess as to how many files that is, but certainly in the thousands.
While XML is a nice standard and easy to read/parse, it's filled with bloat, by definition. Rather than know by some standard which character position begins the field-def, you have tags/closing tags that take up more space in the file. I can imagine that MS wouldn't think of storing all metadata in one large file (given the fiasco that the regstry has turned into). So how would they tackle the problem? Probably a separate file for each folder, not unlike how folder properties are stored now. However, with each file move, now you would have to change the XML doc in two folders, as well as change the header of the file to show where it's stored now. Now imagine doing that for 5000 files. Pretty daunting task, given the additional work of checking tags, possibly against a DTD.
It's just my personal opinion that XML is already overused for tasks it wasn't intended for, and this might be another. Maybe looking into an OODBS structured filesystem would be time better spent. Who knows....
Then run 3 instances of IE on top of that (since we're talking about MS products). 23MB per IE, that's an additional 69MB. And in checking out my task manager, explorer.exe is taking 12MB, services.exe 18MB, svchost.exe a combined 13MB, outlook.exe 6MB.
I've ignored quite a few system critical process in win2k (lsass, mdm, regsvc, system, winlogon, etc..) but you get the drift. Windows in low RAM is fine if you only want an app or two open at a time. MS has a history of using more resources than competitors do in just about any app/os.
The discussion though was about XML and poor uses of it. And storing metadata for thousands of files is probably not a good use.
You make two good points. sound like someone's playing Buzzword Bingo and file system information is going to be exported as XML and the underlying system for storing it won't be XML.
One would hope they're planning on using it as an outside repository just for the metadata, but even then, it's doomed to become extremely bloated. Hopefully, it would not be tied directly into file properties, and you would have the option to use it or not at that point
Thoughts on XML
on
CNet on WinFS
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I use XML quite a bit in my data-based programs. But I've seen it used WAY too often and in applications where XML just doesn't make any sense (like parsing 1GB files, for instance). XML is a nice tool, but isn't the fastest way to get to data.
That being said, does anyone else think using XML in a filesystem is a horrible way to go? Especially given the hard drive capacity we're seeing today... number of files that can be stored, folders/subfolders, etc...
Unless I misread the article, I just don't see this being a smart move.
I almost agree. Where I live I can't get DSL, so I use cable modem. The only channels I watch are Discovery, History, and Learning (feel free to pre/append the appropriate "The" and "Channel"), with an occasional stint on PBS and AandE (breakfast with the arts). Everything on network and syndication is crap. The laughable part is they want to protect crap.
I disagree that people are "fundamentally lawless". If they were, then no amount of laws would be sufficient to control the people, because the people would simply ignore the laws
Hence the largest prison population in the world...
I agree, but you've left out some great beers that don't come from the northeast. Celis (from Austin), Mendocino Black Hawk Stout, Rogue Shakespeare Stout (both from CA). Kudos to the NE though... there are tons of great beers from that area.
That you're not legally required to say it had no bearing on the matter, and social pressure had everything to bear
Did you have trouble reading the post? His arguement wasn't so much about the issue, but rather that the Slashdot poster used FUD in the article description... namely
Most states have laws requiring the pledge to be recited every day as a class activity
which is completely made up. I can't find any state law that says children HAVE to recite the pledge of allegiance, and that's the point he was making.
Read the comment before you get on your high horse next time.
You left out one important note... that the author of the published story has to at least do some legwork to check the validity of the story, or their employer risks being sued. No job security in that (unless they write for the Enquirer and count on more revenue than they dish out in lawsuits).
With an open source system that hides the identity of the author, there is no (theoretically) risk of being sued for libel or slander. So what's to keep people from posting completely erroneous statements? I can imagine the left vs. right wingers making up stories on the fly just to prove their own particular agendas, leaving the rest of us to begin ignoring the documents.
I love the idea of a system for watching the watchers, I just don't see P2P as a trustable answer.
You beat me to the punchline. The web is chock full of wild acusations and conspiracy theory pubs... so much so that reading anything takes 3-4 hits to try to verify the information.
The information it seems they're talking about is free for public use anyway, and just having a single repository with no slant would be good enough.
I can't find the article I read last week, but I did find this at least. I remember a publisher in the article saying for a book that sells 40,000 copies, they generally sell about 400 ebook versions. So to them, it's not cost effective. That really sucks though.. I have a huge library of (actually purchased) eBooks that I reference all the time.
Sorry, I like both Linux and Windows for different reasons, but I have to pick on this...
If MS wasn't an evil empire, I would be able to use Windows with a 3rd party office suite,
Um... heard of OpenOffice? It actually works with Windows. Or you could go the Corel Wordperfect Office route (which includes WordPerfect, Quattro Pro, and Presentations
3rd party browser,
Once again, there are tons of packages you can use.. Mozilla has a windows port, as well as Amaya, Opera, many more...
3rd party compilers and so forth.
GCC? Borland C? LCC-Win32? Which of these compilers doesn't work in Windows?
It's one thing to tout the abilities and pitfalls of OS's, but don't post outright fiction when it comes to an OS you don't like.
Slashdot Mirror
It was either that or they didn't want to cut off trade with Iraq. Oh, wait, they weren't supposed to be trading with them...
The sad thing is I used it to replace some CA-Clipper modules, and I hear that's still alive and kicking.
I do.. still in the white box it came in. I used it once, actually, but only about 4 years ago, if you can imagine.
How did attorneys not make that list?
Oh, I understand that. The problem I have with it is the number of files you would have to represent. How do you overcome that? With a separate XML file at either the folder or the file level. But that adds yet another layer that the os has to handle on file moves, creates, deletes, etc... Just another speed bump in the process, as far as I can tell.
Careful, or you'll be the next upstanding investment company was fined $19.7m for copyright infringement. :)
Both of those are new to me, and seem pretty interesting. Thanks for the links!
You, sir, should be modded up! :)
I think you're right. My thoughts on that, though, were still related to a bloated filesystem, in that the XML doc, unless each file or folder has a separate doc, will get bloated, and take a great amount of time to parse. I have two 40GB HD's on my main PC at home, and probably have a combined 15GB of space available. I wouldn't venture a guess as to how many files that is, but certainly in the thousands.
While XML is a nice standard and easy to read/parse, it's filled with bloat, by definition. Rather than know by some standard which character position begins the field-def, you have tags/closing tags that take up more space in the file. I can imagine that MS wouldn't think of storing all metadata in one large file (given the fiasco that the regstry has turned into). So how would they tackle the problem? Probably a separate file for each folder, not unlike how folder properties are stored now. However, with each file move, now you would have to change the XML doc in two folders, as well as change the header of the file to show where it's stored now. Now imagine doing that for 5000 files. Pretty daunting task, given the additional work of checking tags, possibly against a DTD.
It's just my personal opinion that XML is already overused for tasks it wasn't intended for, and this might be another. Maybe looking into an OODBS structured filesystem would be time better spent. Who knows....
Very well thought out. I wonder, though, why not go with an ISO standard flatfile, which will be smaller and thus much faster to parse?
Then run 3 instances of IE on top of that (since we're talking about MS products). 23MB per IE, that's an additional 69MB. And in checking out my task manager, explorer.exe is taking 12MB, services.exe 18MB, svchost.exe a combined 13MB, outlook.exe 6MB.
I've ignored quite a few system critical process in win2k (lsass, mdm, regsvc, system, winlogon, etc..) but you get the drift. Windows in low RAM is fine if you only want an app or two open at a time. MS has a history of using more resources than competitors do in just about any app/os.
The discussion though was about XML and poor uses of it. And storing metadata for thousands of files is probably not a good use.
You make two good points. sound like someone's playing Buzzword Bingo and file system information is going to be exported as XML and the underlying system for storing it won't be XML.
One would hope they're planning on using it as an outside repository just for the metadata, but even then, it's doomed to become extremely bloated. Hopefully, it would not be tied directly into file properties, and you would have the option to use it or not at that point
I use XML quite a bit in my data-based programs. But I've seen it used WAY too often and in applications where XML just doesn't make any sense (like parsing 1GB files, for instance). XML is a nice tool, but isn't the fastest way to get to data.
That being said, does anyone else think using XML in a filesystem is a horrible way to go? Especially given the hard drive capacity we're seeing today... number of files that can be stored, folders/subfolders, etc...
Unless I misread the article, I just don't see this being a smart move.
I almost agree. Where I live I can't get DSL, so I use cable modem. The only channels I watch are Discovery, History, and Learning (feel free to pre/append the appropriate "The" and "Channel"), with an occasional stint on PBS and AandE (breakfast with the arts). Everything on network and syndication is crap. The laughable part is they want to protect crap.
Like the old saying goes, if you polish a turd...
I disagree that people are "fundamentally lawless". If they were, then no amount of laws would be sufficient to control the people, because the people would simply ignore the laws
Hence the largest prison population in the world...
Maybe it's because all you can download are Rush, Triumph, and Celine Dion tracks. :)
I agree, but you've left out some great beers that don't come from the northeast. Celis (from Austin), Mendocino Black Hawk Stout, Rogue Shakespeare Stout (both from CA). Kudos to the NE though... there are tons of great beers from that area.
They're testing "desktop" applications... who has RAID (besides me) at home?
And the articled did say they used 1 GB DDR 400 RAM.
That you're not legally required to say it had no bearing on the matter, and social pressure had everything to bear
Did you have trouble reading the post? His arguement wasn't so much about the issue, but rather that the Slashdot poster used FUD in the article description... namely
Most states have laws requiring the pledge to be recited every day as a class activity which is completely made up. I can't find any state law that says children HAVE to recite the pledge of allegiance, and that's the point he was making.
Read the comment before you get on your high horse next time.
Mental note: read my replies out loud to myself before hitting the submit button.... :)
You left out one important note... that the author of the published story has to at least do some legwork to check the validity of the story, or their employer risks being sued. No job security in that (unless they write for the Enquirer and count on more revenue than they dish out in lawsuits).
With an open source system that hides the identity of the author, there is no (theoretically) risk of being sued for libel or slander. So what's to keep people from posting completely erroneous statements? I can imagine the left vs. right wingers making up stories on the fly just to prove their own particular agendas, leaving the rest of us to begin ignoring the documents.
I love the idea of a system for watching the watchers, I just don't see P2P as a trustable answer.
Oh, come on! Are you trying to tell us you haven't seen the black helicoptors?
You beat me to the punchline. The web is chock full of wild acusations and conspiracy theory pubs... so much so that reading anything takes 3-4 hits to try to verify the information.
The information it seems they're talking about is free for public use anyway, and just having a single repository with no slant would be good enough.
I can't find the article I read last week, but I did find this at least. I remember a publisher in the article saying for a book that sells 40,000 copies, they generally sell about 400 ebook versions. So to them, it's not cost effective. That really sucks though.. I have a huge library of (actually purchased) eBooks that I reference all the time.
Sorry, I like both Linux and Windows for different reasons, but I have to pick on this...
If MS wasn't an evil empire, I would be able to use Windows with a 3rd party office suite,
Um... heard of OpenOffice? It actually works with Windows. Or you could go the Corel Wordperfect Office route (which includes WordPerfect, Quattro Pro, and Presentations
3rd party browser,
Once again, there are tons of packages you can use.. Mozilla has a windows port, as well as Amaya, Opera, many more...
3rd party compilers and so forth.
GCC? Borland C? LCC-Win32? Which of these compilers doesn't work in Windows?
It's one thing to tout the abilities and pitfalls of OS's, but don't post outright fiction when it comes to an OS you don't like.