Good post. I think the other guy, hardcase?, decided to take offense at my mentioning of military personnel compared to regular civilians. I'll admit to my own bad wording, but when I stated that mentioning military folks as "American citizens" is a stretch, I meant just that. Of course they are American citizens, but in the context of rights and losing their personnel information, comparing them to regular citizens is, indeed, a stretch.
I wish we could reach a point of agreement, and I refuse to split any more hairs here, but in my mind, I simply think that if I left my current job or went to the doctor or hired a lawyer or you name it, it would simply be a different thing than doing the same in the military. But, who knows, I could be wrong.
Answer me this: what course of action is available to the military personnel whose private data was lost as opposed to someone not in the military whose data would have been lost by a doctor's office? Let's stick to the nuts and bolts here....
I mean, perhaps some company in the U.S. has marched their employees into a nuclear cloud or injected them with chemicals or drugs not approved by the FDA. And even if you do consider the carbide dust or asbestos cases in American history, those "American Citizens" had the ability to sue and received large sums. Saving arguments against the justice system for a moment (and all Will Rogers quotes aside), I do hope you see my point. You, my friend, served honorably and deservedly so in the military, and whether for good or ill service people are treated as they are -- they are simply not treated the same.
In any event, you do sound like an intelligent person with good life experiences.
I will not try to argue with someone who has served when I have not, and all I can go by are the many people I've known who have served and/or what I've read/seen on tv., but from my understanding, medical malpractice, forced innoculations, due process, and many, many, many more areas of governmental and personal rights are entirely different between civilian and enlisted individuals.
I never stated those serving were not American Citizens (quote me please), but I did indicate that for the poster to launch a rant comparing the treatment of military personnel by the military to the treatment civilians can expect by any other entity (government & private business) is, indeed, a stretch. Let's stay on topic here....
Yes. It is a very old and bad joke, but every joke contains part of the truth, and it's intended use by me in my first post stands. I have yet to speak to anyone who has ever served who doesn't, at some point in the conversation, discuss the stupidity of it all or of an individual they were under.
In the private sector, you are more apt to work with snakes, liars, deceivers and pure evil individuals, but rarely are they out-right stupid. Well, except programmers....
1. These were military personnel right? Referring to them as "American Citizens" is a stretch. Don't get me wrong. Hats off to our enlisted troops, but once you join the military you give up massive rights that a normal citizen has.
2. My dad served in the army, and from my understanding, it is anything but "intelligent." "Army Intelligence" was referred to as an oxymoron....
"It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish." J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973)
I also think it has to do with whether or not you like what you do. If you enjoy your work, then slacking is hardly a thought. I currently really enjoy what I'm doing. Then again, I've taken the time to make this post and google that Tolkien quote I remembered....
You are entirely correct about upgrades not working at all. We had a massive project, took a half dozen people off and on, writing scripts to uninstall all sorts of versions of norton and symantec retail so that we could install SAVCE 8.x. However, the upgrade from 8.x to 9.x seemed to work ok from what I recall.
The thing is most other enterprise AV packages require the local, parent-server, to have a web server installed (Trend) or some other thing that we simply were not going to do on our ancient remote servers. SAV will nicely install a parent-server piece from our corporate office and then install down from there to the clients no problem. Once it all gets working -- barring the deplorable upgrade issues your mentioned -- it works fine.
Symantec Client Security -- their enterprise software firewall -- allows an administrator to pre-configure the firewall settings and then push to as many workstations as needed w/o the user ever having to deal with anything (popups, whathaveyou).
Unfortunately, all other swfws require the user to be involved at some point -- even MS's that comes with XPSP2 (am I the only one who gets the popups asking if I want to allow the requested connection?). Name for a swfw you could install on your mom's computer that won't need some user interation. Seriously, I hope you can cuz I want it!
Otherwise, I don't get your hostility. Oh wait, yes I do too....
I find it hard to believe the parent was modded insightful.
Security isn't easy at best, and the more computers, applications and disparate networks you have to manage the worse it gets. Name for me a software firewall that doesn't require "teaching"? Eventually, you'll install something that will not work until you open the port it needs. The newer swfws will at least popup a quick box asking you if you'd like to permanently allow the connection. I've used zone alarm, tpf, netpeeker, scs and, yes, XPs -- to name a few. Of them, XPSP2's swfw seems to be the most "user-friendly" -- i.e., less nagging. But, then again, it only blocks incoming. Most other, "better" swfws will also block outgoing -- which is what you really want to do on a network you're managing.
The other thing that gets me about 99% of the posters here is they seem to only have experience on their home computer. From that POV they are correct and Symantec and other "enterprise" products have areas to improve on, but I help manage a network with 1000s of systems. Correcting applications that refuse to work with XPSP2, or getting most administrative AV packages to work well across a huge and disparate network is difficult. In some cases, you cannot patch and an AV product is all you got. The vast majority of the time, once you push SAV to a remote machine (that could be 3000 miles away) it will install, get good virus defs, and keep humming right along no problem. In the years we've used NAVCE and now SAVCE, only one time did we get a virus that the current virus defs not detect. In that case, we worked with Symantec and they quickly updated their virus defs for us and the problem was solved.
Experience also exists outside the home and on just one computer....
Well, in our case we tried hard to replace symantec's enterprise av, but nothing could fit our network as well. The main selling point is that the SAV console works for us. We have 100s of sites across the country on every imaginable type of connection, and each and every other AV "enterprise" suite fell on its face -- except Symantec's. We really, REALLY, wanted trendmicro's officescan product to work. It is, by far (IMO), one of the best admin-centric AV tools out there, but it, too, could not handle our disparate network.
There's more to AV than your home computer. Managing 1000s of machines across the country takes more than the tinyest AV program you can stick on one computer. Our needs are first and foremost having an AV install on each system, with good virus defs, and that we can actually manage remotely. SAV is still the best for that in our opinion....
I'd find it very hard to imagine a company that has done nothing but destroy every piece of intelectual property it aquires and continues to make money.
It is reliable. You can rely on it to propogate viruses, spyware and carry holes that create DDoS across the globe due to it being reliably easy to setup and then not patch. After all, its many iterations are more hole-ridden than any other OS.
It is reliably the most ubiquitous OS out there. You can reliably buy software for it that will do just about anything you want to do with a computer. Then again, you'll pay for it as it has created a market wherein both the maker (microsoft) and third party developers profit, hugely, from license instead of open source software freely available.
It is dependable too. You can depend on anything the windows OS doesn't do, but is done elsewhere, to eventually be available as microsoft will innovate by assimulation. It will dependably keep using ideas developed by the open source community, and then it will dependably keep making money from licenses funding the whole endeavor.
Microsoft will then reliably and dependably not share as is done in the open source community. Afterall, it is closed-source (AKA, commericial).
When I was a kid, I had a ti99/4a and we shared the code, bought magazines with code in it, and computers were fun. There was a community. Then came Bill Gates and then came Windows....
Good stuff. You have enlightened me, seriously. I am not an email admin anymore (for several years) and my time as one was about as long. I do remember sendmail being extremely intimidating to configure. I vaguely remember using the m4 macro to recompile after I made changes. I ended up using webmin as much as possible.
I am a novice with sendmail and humbly accept your criticisms.
So much for hoping for another meaningful reply....
Praytell what would you have done, and what is wrong with sendmail? Also, you do not realize what I did with sendmail. I've really barely touched on it here, but we were looking at migrating 1000s of users from lotes to exchange. If you look into the "right" way both companies say to do it (whether going from lotes to exchange or vice versa) it all relies on the the saltine cracker of setting up a lotes client on a main router box and, in short, its crap (both fall short of fully explaining the process anyhow). I was able to setup a linux box with sendmail to do all the routing as we migrated users. It worked like a champ and was solid. We communicated with another, large, corporation that had tried the "right" way to do it, and they had 100s of 1000s of dollars in consulting, research, etc., and were still in a huge mess. I just used SMTP to keep mail routing between the two platforms as the users on each used the native routing protocols.
I never expected someone to bash sendmail on/. Plus, I'm not even sure what your point is -- maybe I just talked into the wind (again).
Very good points. I admit to knowing less now than I did then and that my experience stops with 5.x. Actually, we had more 4.x clients at one point. We migrated off of it at 5.x. Barring OS-authentication per AD/Outlook/Exchange, I would say Lotes security is the best....
I freely admit I have little idea about much at all. That doesn't change anything I've said here today about email or my experiences. And, touche, you got me on squirrelmail. It is a web-based client right? I think I setup redhat/sendmail and then installed squirrelmail. The point is, when discussing an email server/client I would prefer linux/sendmail/squirrelmail (comparable to windows/exchange/owa or windows/domino/inotes) -- to be exact.
Your rebuttal -- as snide as it was -- is appreciated....
How many email packages have you setup and administered?
I think one of the most stressful -- technical -- jobs I've had in IT is email routing. It almost drove me mad. Of course, I was trying to route mail across 5 disparate systems whilst migrating 1000s of users from lotes to exchange using sendmail. But, then again, I've since been involved in management/politics and mail routing seems a piece of cake now....
Finally, someone knows what I'm talking about. Exactly. I can't remember all details (years ago), but I put a lot of time into it -- determined to 'make domino run as it should and not be an open relay' -- to finally toss-in the towel and understand that the developers of the thing had simply blown it.
Now, where's the guy who said he questions my facts....
A valid quetion. When you have users wanting to email people outside your company, and they cannot, and you want to do the right thing and 'fix' your broken mail server, and you respect the blacklist blacklisting you, and your hide is on the line and this email better go "today!," and you work your butt off to find domino (I'll call it that this time) admits it's broke and therefore the maker/owner (IBM) admits it cannot be fixed, and you realize you have to setup and configure a new mail gateway which will take time and possibly days -- then you may well ask the blacklist to cut you some slack....
Slashdot Mirror
"...and I further agree to only run Microsoft Operating Systems on this PC from this point forward"
"...and to find a shrubbery...."
Hey, it could happen....
I like birthday cake icecream!...
May you and your family be blessed because of your great service to the country....
Good post. I think the other guy, hardcase?, decided to take offense at my mentioning of military personnel compared to regular civilians. I'll admit to my own bad wording, but when I stated that mentioning military folks as "American citizens" is a stretch, I meant just that. Of course they are American citizens, but in the context of rights and losing their personnel information, comparing them to regular citizens is, indeed, a stretch.
Then again, his nick is hardcase or something....
I wish we could reach a point of agreement, and I refuse to split any more hairs here, but in my mind, I simply think that if I left my current job or went to the doctor or hired a lawyer or you name it, it would simply be a different thing than doing the same in the military. But, who knows, I could be wrong.
Answer me this: what course of action is available to the military personnel whose private data was lost as opposed to someone not in the military whose data would have been lost by a doctor's office? Let's stick to the nuts and bolts here....
I mean, perhaps some company in the U.S. has marched their employees into a nuclear cloud or injected them with chemicals or drugs not approved by the FDA. And even if you do consider the carbide dust or asbestos cases in American history, those "American Citizens" had the ability to sue and received large sums. Saving arguments against the justice system for a moment (and all Will Rogers quotes aside), I do hope you see my point. You, my friend, served honorably and deservedly so in the military, and whether for good or ill service people are treated as they are -- they are simply not treated the same.
In any event, you do sound like an intelligent person with good life experiences.
Good luck to you friend....
I will not try to argue with someone who has served when I have not, and all I can go by are the many people I've known who have served and/or what I've read/seen on tv., but from my understanding, medical malpractice, forced innoculations, due process, and many, many, many more areas of governmental and personal rights are entirely different between civilian and enlisted individuals.
I never stated those serving were not American Citizens (quote me please), but I did indicate that for the poster to launch a rant comparing the treatment of military personnel by the military to the treatment civilians can expect by any other entity (government & private business) is, indeed, a stretch. Let's stay on topic here....
Yes. It is a very old and bad joke, but every joke contains part of the truth, and it's intended use by me in my first post stands. I have yet to speak to anyone who has ever served who doesn't, at some point in the conversation, discuss the stupidity of it all or of an individual they were under.
In the private sector, you are more apt to work with snakes, liars, deceivers and pure evil individuals, but rarely are they out-right stupid. Well, except programmers....
In response to the "rant" on the main page:
1. These were military personnel right? Referring to them as "American Citizens" is a stretch. Don't get me wrong. Hats off to our enlisted troops, but once you join the military you give up massive rights that a normal citizen has.
2. My dad served in the army, and from my understanding, it is anything but "intelligent." "Army Intelligence" was referred to as an oxymoron....
"It's a job that's never started that takes the longest to finish." J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973)
I also think it has to do with whether or not you like what you do. If you enjoy your work, then slacking is hardly a thought. I currently really enjoy what I'm doing. Then again, I've taken the time to make this post and google that Tolkien quote I remembered....
Only Google does good betas....
This Is Your Computer
And You Open The Door And You Look Inside.
Were Inside Our Computers.
Now Imagine Your Pain Is an overclocked Opteron 144.
Thats Right !
Your Pain - The Pain Himself - Is an overclocked Opteron 144.
I Dont Think So !
You are entirely correct about upgrades not working at all. We had a massive project, took a half dozen people off and on, writing scripts to uninstall all sorts of versions of norton and symantec retail so that we could install SAVCE 8.x. However, the upgrade from 8.x to 9.x seemed to work ok from what I recall.
The thing is most other enterprise AV packages require the local, parent-server, to have a web server installed (Trend) or some other thing that we simply were not going to do on our ancient remote servers. SAV will nicely install a parent-server piece from our corporate office and then install down from there to the clients no problem. Once it all gets working -- barring the deplorable upgrade issues your mentioned -- it works fine.
Symantec Client Security -- their enterprise software firewall -- allows an administrator to pre-configure the firewall settings and then push to as many workstations as needed w/o the user ever having to deal with anything (popups, whathaveyou).
Unfortunately, all other swfws require the user to be involved at some point -- even MS's that comes with XPSP2 (am I the only one who gets the popups asking if I want to allow the requested connection?). Name for a swfw you could install on your mom's computer that won't need some user interation. Seriously, I hope you can cuz I want it!
Otherwise, I don't get your hostility. Oh wait, yes I do too....
I find it hard to believe the parent was modded insightful.
Security isn't easy at best, and the more computers, applications and disparate networks you have to manage the worse it gets. Name for me a software firewall that doesn't require "teaching"? Eventually, you'll install something that will not work until you open the port it needs. The newer swfws will at least popup a quick box asking you if you'd like to permanently allow the connection. I've used zone alarm, tpf, netpeeker, scs and, yes, XPs -- to name a few. Of them, XPSP2's swfw seems to be the most "user-friendly" -- i.e., less nagging. But, then again, it only blocks incoming. Most other, "better" swfws will also block outgoing -- which is what you really want to do on a network you're managing.
The other thing that gets me about 99% of the posters here is they seem to only have experience on their home computer. From that POV they are correct and Symantec and other "enterprise" products have areas to improve on, but I help manage a network with 1000s of systems. Correcting applications that refuse to work with XPSP2, or getting most administrative AV packages to work well across a huge and disparate network is difficult. In some cases, you cannot patch and an AV product is all you got. The vast majority of the time, once you push SAV to a remote machine (that could be 3000 miles away) it will install, get good virus defs, and keep humming right along no problem. In the years we've used NAVCE and now SAVCE, only one time did we get a virus that the current virus defs not detect. In that case, we worked with Symantec and they quickly updated their virus defs for us and the problem was solved.
Experience also exists outside the home and on just one computer....
Well, in our case we tried hard to replace symantec's enterprise av, but nothing could fit our network as well. The main selling point is that the SAV console works for us. We have 100s of sites across the country on every imaginable type of connection, and each and every other AV "enterprise" suite fell on its face -- except Symantec's. We really, REALLY, wanted trendmicro's officescan product to work. It is, by far (IMO), one of the best admin-centric AV tools out there, but it, too, could not handle our disparate network.
There's more to AV than your home computer. Managing 1000s of machines across the country takes more than the tinyest AV program you can stick on one computer. Our needs are first and foremost having an AV install on each system, with good virus defs, and that we can actually manage remotely. SAV is still the best for that in our opinion....
I'd find it very hard to imagine a company that has done nothing but destroy every piece of intelectual property it aquires and continues to make money.
computer associates....
Technical Gore
/. id to be so clever....
Wasn't that one of Al Gore's Internet aliases?
Btw, you have such a large
It is reliable. You can rely on it to propogate viruses, spyware and carry holes that create DDoS across the globe due to it being reliably easy to setup and then not patch. After all, its many iterations are more hole-ridden than any other OS.
It is reliably the most ubiquitous OS out there. You can reliably buy software for it that will do just about anything you want to do with a computer. Then again, you'll pay for it as it has created a market wherein both the maker (microsoft) and third party developers profit, hugely, from license instead of open source software freely available.
It is dependable too. You can depend on anything the windows OS doesn't do, but is done elsewhere, to eventually be available as microsoft will innovate by assimulation. It will dependably keep using ideas developed by the open source community, and then it will dependably keep making money from licenses funding the whole endeavor.
Microsoft will then reliably and dependably not share as is done in the open source community. Afterall, it is closed-source (AKA, commericial).
When I was a kid, I had a ti99/4a and we shared the code, bought magazines with code in it, and computers were fun. There was a community. Then came Bill Gates and then came Windows....
Good stuff. You have enlightened me, seriously. I am not an email admin anymore (for several years) and my time as one was about as long. I do remember sendmail being extremely intimidating to configure. I vaguely remember using the m4 macro to recompile after I made changes. I ended up using webmin as much as possible.
I am a novice with sendmail and humbly accept your criticisms.
So much for hoping for another meaningful reply....
/. Plus, I'm not even sure what your point is -- maybe I just talked into the wind (again).
Praytell what would you have done, and what is wrong with sendmail? Also, you do not realize what I did with sendmail. I've really barely touched on it here, but we were looking at migrating 1000s of users from lotes to exchange. If you look into the "right" way both companies say to do it (whether going from lotes to exchange or vice versa) it all relies on the the saltine cracker of setting up a lotes client on a main router box and, in short, its crap (both fall short of fully explaining the process anyhow). I was able to setup a linux box with sendmail to do all the routing as we migrated users. It worked like a champ and was solid. We communicated with another, large, corporation that had tried the "right" way to do it, and they had 100s of 1000s of dollars in consulting, research, etc., and were still in a huge mess. I just used SMTP to keep mail routing between the two platforms as the users on each used the native routing protocols.
I never expected someone to bash sendmail on
Btw, Cavaliers own!
Very good points. I admit to knowing less now than I did then and that my experience stops with 5.x. Actually, we had more 4.x clients at one point. We migrated off of it at 5.x. Barring OS-authentication per AD/Outlook/Exchange, I would say Lotes security is the best....
I freely admit I have little idea about much at all. That doesn't change anything I've said here today about email or my experiences. And, touche, you got me on squirrelmail. It is a web-based client right? I think I setup redhat/sendmail and then installed squirrelmail. The point is, when discussing an email server/client I would prefer linux/sendmail/squirrelmail (comparable to windows/exchange/owa or windows/domino/inotes) -- to be exact.
Your rebuttal -- as snide as it was -- is appreciated....
How many email packages have you setup and administered?
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Perl Harbor?" --John Belushi, Animal House
I think one of the most stressful -- technical -- jobs I've had in IT is email routing. It almost drove me mad. Of course, I was trying to route mail across 5 disparate systems whilst migrating 1000s of users from lotes to exchange using sendmail. But, then again, I've since been involved in management/politics and mail routing seems a piece of cake now....
Finally, someone knows what I'm talking about. Exactly. I can't remember all details (years ago), but I put a lot of time into it -- determined to 'make domino run as it should and not be an open relay' -- to finally toss-in the towel and understand that the developers of the thing had simply blown it.
Now, where's the guy who said he questions my facts....
A valid quetion. When you have users wanting to email people outside your company, and they cannot, and you want to do the right thing and 'fix' your broken mail server, and you respect the blacklist blacklisting you, and your hide is on the line and this email better go "today!," and you work your butt off to find domino (I'll call it that this time) admits it's broke and therefore the maker/owner (IBM) admits it cannot be fixed, and you realize you have to setup and configure a new mail gateway which will take time and possibly days -- then you may well ask the blacklist to cut you some slack....