You can search the source code online. I did a search for fuck, shit and a couple of other words. Within 5,000,000 lines of code no hits for fuck and only 1 for shit. I think I understand why it took them so long to get the code ready:)
"Why would they have to make a seperate keyboard for Dvorak? The keys are blank... just change your kb settings in your OS."
Beats me. Why would they have to blank out the keys? Just do what I do. Don't look down.:) Though having different keys have different spring force sounds cool
Because linux is capable for those types of tasks. Linux has good horizontal scaling properties while commercial unixes might be good at that as well as vertical scaling, the price of AIX for x,000 servers can be avoided by going with an operating system that doesn't need to be paid for.
Red Hat is by far the single largest contributor of code to OSS, this is one of the main reasons why their distribution tends to integrate seamlessly together.
Uhm... You're a bit off there. Remember, Open Source does not mean just Linux. I'm not sure where you got that. RedHat may employ some people to work on the projects you mentioned but in most cases they are not the majority of contributors. UCB is probably the biggest contributor (remember open source didn't start with linux.) They started BSD, PostgreSQL, vi, tcl, SendMail, a good TCP/IP stack and more.
Second is probably Sun with their release of NFS
As for support costs... RedHat's EULA restricts you from running RHEL or their other Red Hat distros (not including fedora) without a support contract. I think they can do this because of trademark, not copyright. According to the EULA it doesn't seem you can even buy support for RedHat on a production server and install it on a unsupported development server. To abide by their contract you need to have support for every installation.
Windows is a non issue these days. Any medium to large size company is going to have some sort of support contract with MS that adding a couple more servers is just a drop in the bucket. Sun gives you a free RTU license to run Solaris 10 on any system. If you want support, their pricing is cheaper than Red Hat. A lot of the RedHat users that were running large numbers of redhat servers have either not upgraded to RHES by switching to Fedora, staying with what they have or switching to CentOS or Whitebox as a result of the pricing and agreement.
For instance, you can upgrade the G4 cube to a candy dish. I haven't finished the website and powerpoint presentation but in the meantime just follow the article's directions to the point where you remove the old motherboard. Then remove anything else and fill with candy.
Next week I'll share my procedure for turning an old full tower case into a phone stand.
Ha, you can always claim you're experimenting changing species. Saw an article on USA Today about HR issues with people changing sex. Came across it doing a search for some tech company news. Bunch of them like IBM, Sun, Lucent, Apple, Avaya have policies. I guess it's no surprise that Apple was one of the first (j/k):)
You'd think of some former navy seal can get boobs and grow his hair some inc and some peircings wouldn't be a big deal.
Genesi is making a Open Desktop Workstation based on the PowerPC G4 processor from Freescale. Freescale I think is the PowerPC unit from Motorola that was spun off? You can get motherboards from them too. The 1Ghz PowerPC workstation costs 799. I ran across the release announcement the other day and tried contributing it to slashdot but it's obviously not that much interest to others. I don't know much about the company or PowerPC in general but with Apple moving away from PowerPC I thought it was cool. Maybe the info will help you.
I installed Sarge on an old laptop that used to run Woody (and ubunty for a couple of days). Both Ubuntu and Sarge booted up very slow. Kept getting DMA errors on boot. I mainly use that laptop to surf the web and as a vnc client to other desktops and servers. It's a really slow machine. I wound up just downloading a Damn Small Linux ISO that I boot from the cdrive. It boots up much faster and has a vnc viewer in it. Obviously not a solution for everyone but DSL made things a lot easier for me.
"The original point was 'jsp doesn't seem to scale as well as php', and none of the reams of text you've pasted here comes close to disproving that."
No, the original point was that you said " guess the other thing is that Apache/PHP seems to scale better (or at least easier/cheaper [internetnews.com] than Tomcat." The article you link to doesn't mention java or tomcat at all. The presentation that is linked from the article doesn't mention tomcat but it does say good things about java/jsp/j2ee but they couldn't use it because freebsd's threading sucks. I should have known better than to start a discussion with someone that cites an article to back up his claim when it doesn't even mention what he's claiming.
"What would are some very large sites using jsp, which for all the links you posted, you haven't been able to show.More and larger sites use php than jsp. I pointed out ebay, which is still using dlls for much of it's heavy load. You brought up playboy, which seems to be mostly a static site running some cgi scripts: http://cyber.playboy.com/cgi/ab.cgi."
eBay used to use a dll. The dll is their old architecture, when they finish the migration the dll will disapear. eBay is a complicated site and the migration will take time. A lot of ebay is currently running on websphere. You can't easily tell because they don't use the.jsp extention for their files. That's a big site. They may have 1/3rd the traffic of yahoo but their profits and revenues are about the same. Playboy does use java. I think they use a mixture of JBoss and Tomcat. Just because a page says.html doesn't mean it's a static page. A lot of times, I've noticed this with JBoss especially, files look like html but they're not. You can see this at the sims online too, which also uses jboss. Look at this url from playboy http://www.playboy.com/magazine/playmate.html?sour ce=playmate_sectionfront since when can you pass query parameters to STATIC HTML? We used this technique with sites I've worked on as well where we set up our container to recognize.html files as jsps. If you look at netcraft.com for the server info you'll see playboy.com uses mod_jk whick is the connector to Tomcat. Sometimes it's hard to tell what sites use java since many times they'll use a servlet controller that calls the jsp's behind the scenes. Sometimes you'll see a.do which is the typical way to use Struts, but not always. Here's a bit of info on capital one they use java for a lot of their stuff. I think they use oracle's application server. B&H Photo uses java for their ecommerce site (Probably the most popular online photo/video retailer) but you can't easily tell from looking at the urls unless you know what to look for. bnh is the servlet context, controller is the main servlet handler and home is a page handler. Years ago they used to use Bluestones application server. Now it seems they're just using Netscape Enterprise Server. If your brouse certain sites with cookies disabled you can sometimes see a jsessionid in the url, that's a sign it's running a java web container. Verizon Online uses Java for their clients web email and a bunch of other support functions. Have a look at Bea's Client list among some other big names you'll find Amazon.com and FedEx. Ofoto.com, now Kodak Easy Share, uses jsp. Here's a story on jboss writing their own postnuke style cms in java because php didn't scale as well. These are just the few I could remember off the top of my head. And I've done my own benchmarks for m
" The shop I run has been coding web apps in various languages for going on 7 years now.
Once we dropped the others as much as possible and focused on php, our productivity went through the roof."
That's what happens when you consolidate your energies rather than using a random collection. I'd be interested to know what these other languages were.
"It's much faster to write the application in php, then identify performance issues and code those functions as c++ extentions than it is to write the whole thing in java. This is Radwin's point, and I've seen it proven repeatedly in practice."
There's a problem with that. You now have to have developers know php and c++ which negates one of the benefits of PHP being easier to program. Whereas with Java you're starting off with better speed and if you need to go to native api's you can still do that through JNI and going from java to cpp is a lot easier than going from php to cpp from a coding perspective. (The languages are more alike).
"'Java's as fast as C++'. OMFG. LOL."
Ok, now I know you haven't used java or haven't touched it in years. On the server side JIT compilation really shows it's strengths. And things are going to only get better as cpu's continue to have greater threading capabilities which PHP can't usually take advantage of until more modules are made thread safe. JIT compilers can inline a method increasing performance and use other static calls. Intel worked on features of the P4 and Xeon processors to perform better with code with a lot of branching and inderection. They did this with JVM's in mind. The JIT compiler can reduce the number of branches and it's branch prediction is right most of the time. More than static compilers anyway. Delays on these processors for a correctly predicted branch are down to almost zero clock cycles.
I actually installed Ubuntu on an old laptop that used to run Debian Woody. I like Ubuntu. The first thing I noticed was I didn't have to mess around trying to get antialised fonts. The install was long on this pos laptop but it didn't ask too many questions.
I'm not a newbie when it comes to linux and I've used unix for a while too. But I seem to have had better luck with the newbie distros. A few years ago I was trying to get linux on an old sparstation 20. I tried all sorts of things on it but the only one I really had success with was Mandrake. Eventually I went back to solaris because Sun wasn't providing a JDK for linux at the time.
I'm probably going to install Sarge on that laptop but I'm in no rush, it's pretty much just a terminal server client. I should just figure out how to roll my own and put it on a cd so that all it is is twm and a vncviewer.
" I recently described PHP to an ASP.NET programmer in the form of a medieval weapon analogy, thusly:"
And then the ASP.NET developer locked you in your locker I bet.
Re:My my, must have struck a nerve
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"Actually, we do. Update your sources. Yahoo is ~3x as large as ebay, and all their presentation logic is in php."
Ok I was off on the number of hits but that link you provided just proves that php is used for the presentation logic. Sounds like they're still using a good bit c/c++ for the business logic. You obviously didn't read the comments of the blog where Michael Radwin said:
"Actually, I did send the author various comments and corrections, but not all of them made it into the final draft. That particular comment was taken a little bit out of context (he asked if we did presentation logic in C/C++, and I answered that we never did it there, but instead at the higher-level languages like PHP). Oh well.
The percentage of Y! pages that are served via PHP is actually pretty high now.
In any case, given that Y! has 90 properties, there's pretty much nothing you can say about Y! technology that's uniform across all sites. You can't even claim that "Y! is a Unix shop" since we actually still have a Windows presence in some of our streaming media properties."
"And of course their processing isn't all PHP. In fact one of Radwin's core points was that you can take repeatedly run php scripts, and turn them into php extentions to improve performance. It would be foolish to do heavy processing in php (or jsp)."
Ok so you agree yahoo isn't completely done in PHP. The heavy processing is done in c/c++.
And you're right. You wouldn't want to do the heavy processing in JSP. But you can do it in Java and most people do. So you're still using the same technology, Java, throughout. When Java runs on a server it gets compiled to native code and can run as fast as c++. Radwin himself says "He's right that Java is actually faster than PHP because Java is a compiled language and PHP is not." He also says that 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter, but when you can use java instead of c++ and keep a consistent development language through out the project then it makes a big difference.
So PHP may be easier for some people but c/c++ certainly isn't as easy. If you're going to have to learn a high level language why not choose one you canuse consistently throughout?
"So the question was what servers would be required to get jsp to compete on scalability with php, and your answer is Solaris? Or do you just not have any idea?"
I've personally run servlet containers like tomcat on windows, red hat, debian and solaris. All you need is an OS, (you can get debian or solaris 10 for free), a JDK (you can download Sun's JDK for windows, solaris and linux for free), a servlet container (you can get Tomcat for free and it runs on windows, unix, linux and others). In my tests on windows and solaris x86 I found that Tomcat 5.5 was faster than Apache/PHP by about 2x. That's pretty sad considering my php page just had a couple of includes and a little bit of formatting logic while my Java page did a hell of a lot more including connecting to a database!
Look at playboy.com, they use a lot of tomcat, resin and I think even jboss.
"
When is Sun going to open source java?"
Who knows and frankly I don't care. It's free enough for me. Kaffe, GCJ, GNU Classpath and Apache's Ha
Re:Congratulations are in order!
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"In other words, putting all those "pg_connect()" calls behind something that helps you develop your application faster is a good thing. However, it does not neccessarily follow that then formalizing a set of database calls that dissolves the differences between PGSql and MySql and Interbase is also a good thing."
No, you're right, but by abstracting the databse calls like that you have a single point to make changes if you ever want to switch rdmb's in the future. Which does happen. So you call format_table(get_data()) and you don't care what database you're hitting. If you change to oracle or mysql in the future, you just have to change your get_data and maybe your format methods instead of going into every file that has pg_connect in it and changing it.
I think this is a point you understand based on what you said, you just didn't explicitly say it.
Re:Which fits in the 'easily/cheaply' side of the
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I forgot to mention the main point I wanted to address.
It doesn't matter what Yahoo is running or what eBays is running. The vast majority of people out there are not going to be building sites that handle anywhere near the traffic that those sites handle. If your page renders in 100ms or 200ms it's not that big a deal.
What is important is that you figure out your needs, know what you need to plan ahead for, evaluate the available resources to achieve your goals and choose a solution that works with the skillsets of your team. Making a decision based on what unrelated websites use is a mistake. Almost anything can work. eBay went for years running on a single 3.3 million line dll. Eventually it got to much for them and made it difficult to add enhancements so they switched to J2EE. Yahoo built their own scripting language because there really wasn't anything comparable out there at the time. They even used their own webserver until apache was good enough.
Re:Which fits in the 'easily/cheaply' side of the
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"if they had to switch their serverOS to use jsp, then it certainly would have been harder/more expensive to use jsp just in switching/retraining costs. If they had touse a commercial server platform to get equivalent performance, it would cost even more."
I don't understand the point of this statment. What yahoo said was they didn't choose jsp/java because FreeBSD's threads suck. That's not Java's fault. That's FreeBSD's fault.
"Of course we don't know how much it would cost to scale jsp to handle yahoo's load b/c no one has tried it yet."
We also don't know how much it will cost for Yahoo to completely handle Yahoo's load. Yahoo didn't rewrite their whole site in php and according to them, they have no plans to. "With recent advances in PHP, we have decided to adopt it for some of our new developments, in preference to some of our internally developed technologies,"
They're basically using it for new stuff instead of yScript2. And according to the presentation, one of the reasons they chose PHP is that they can tie it in to their existing C/C++ backend or to new C/C++ code when performance is critical.
So, we don't know how much of Yahoo's processing is done by PHP, yScript, yScript2 or C/C++. But we do know that it's not all PHP. And they're not using PHP alone, they're using ioncube's php accelerator which is free but not open source.
I don't know if you're trolling or you've only read the headlines. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of not knowing the details. That link to the presentation should clear up some stuff.
"Hopefully ebay will release some numbers when they get it going and then we will have some real world data use to evaluate whether jsp can scale to handle the loads php can, and what that might cost to do."
Sun had released some information regarding eBay. They were consutling on the project as well. Their servers are Sun servers running Solaris. eBay gets something like 1Billion hits a day, which is comparable to yahoo which I think gets 1.5Billion. Yahoo has over 4500 servers, that works out to about 333,333 hits per server per day. That doesn't sound all that impressive to me.
Hopefully ebay will release some numbers when they get it going and then we will have some real world data use to evaluate whether jsp can scale to handle the loads php can, and what that might cost to do.
"
By the way, do you think IBM's 'embrace' of PHP might have something to do with their experience with ebay?"
IBM will embrace anything they think will make them money. I don't think it had anything to do with eBay. IBM makes hundreds of millions of dollars from Java. The deal IBM struck with Zend is to develop Zend Core for IBM which is just a set of tools and integrations into IBM's database products. Namely cloudscape and db2. Cloudscape is open sourced but db2 isn't. Couldscape is a teaser to try and get people into DB2 if their needs ever outgrow cloudscape. All IBM is trying to do is get PHP developers to buy more of their products.
If you only read the headlines I can see how you might think more is going on but it's not.
Re:Which libraries have threading problems?
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"Which libraries are these? I keep hearing the "some libraries" line, but have yet to see an enumerated list. I'd like to avoid those libraries."
No idea. Apparently there are a lot of them. This quote is from Zend.com "Due to the fact that there are more rather than less of non-thread safe libraries...". (page http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week131.php#Heading3)
It's a shame too. Apache 2 can be up to 3 times faster than 1.3 using mpm-worker.
Slashdot Mirror
You can search the source code online. I did a search for fuck, shit and a couple of other words. Within 5,000,000 lines of code no hits for fuck and only 1 for shit. I think I understand why it took them so long to get the code ready :)
Also check out Jim Grisanzio's blog. It explains a bit about what's been going on with the pilot program.
Beats me. Why would they have to blank out the keys? Just do what I do. Don't look down. :) Though having different keys have different spring force sounds cool
Even more fun. Imagine how silly people will feel when they sit down at your keyboard and try to type something.
I have a feeling all he wanted to do was be able to watch porn while coworkers walking by would think he was working hard.
Because linux is capable for those types of tasks. Linux has good horizontal scaling properties while commercial unixes might be good at that as well as vertical scaling, the price of AIX for x,000 servers can be avoided by going with an operating system that doesn't need to be paid for.
Maybe you're just an asshole and you don't know it? :)
Second is probably Sun with their release of NFS As for support costs... RedHat's EULA restricts you from running RHEL or their other Red Hat distros (not including fedora) without a support contract. I think they can do this because of trademark, not copyright. According to the EULA it doesn't seem you can even buy support for RedHat on a production server and install it on a unsupported development server. To abide by their contract you need to have support for every installation.
Windows is a non issue these days. Any medium to large size company is going to have some sort of support contract with MS that adding a couple more servers is just a drop in the bucket. Sun gives you a free RTU license to run Solaris 10 on any system. If you want support, their pricing is cheaper than Red Hat. A lot of the RedHat users that were running large numbers of redhat servers have either not upgraded to RHES by switching to Fedora, staying with what they have or switching to CentOS or Whitebox as a result of the pricing and agreement.
For instance, you can upgrade the G4 cube to a candy dish. I haven't finished the website and powerpoint presentation but in the meantime just follow the article's directions to the point where you remove the old motherboard. Then remove anything else and fill with candy.
Next week I'll share my procedure for turning an old full tower case into a phone stand.
You'd think of some former navy seal can get boobs and grow his hair some inc and some peircings wouldn't be a big deal.
Genesi is making a Open Desktop Workstation based on the PowerPC G4 processor from Freescale. Freescale I think is the PowerPC unit from Motorola that was spun off? You can get motherboards from them too. The 1Ghz PowerPC workstation costs 799. I ran across the release announcement the other day and tried contributing it to slashdot but it's obviously not that much interest to others. I don't know much about the company or PowerPC in general but with Apple moving away from PowerPC I thought it was cool. Maybe the info will help you.
I installed Sarge on an old laptop that used to run Woody (and ubunty for a couple of days). Both Ubuntu and Sarge booted up very slow. Kept getting DMA errors on boot. I mainly use that laptop to surf the web and as a vnc client to other desktops and servers. It's a really slow machine. I wound up just downloading a Damn Small Linux ISO that I boot from the cdrive. It boots up much faster and has a vnc viewer in it. Obviously not a solution for everyone but DSL made things a lot easier for me.
No, the original point was that you said " guess the other thing is that Apache/PHP seems to scale better (or at least easier/cheaper [internetnews.com] than Tomcat." The article you link to doesn't mention java or tomcat at all. The presentation that is linked from the article doesn't mention tomcat but it does say good things about java/jsp/j2ee but they couldn't use it because freebsd's threading sucks. I should have known better than to start a discussion with someone that cites an article to back up his claim when it doesn't even mention what he's claiming.
"What would are some very large sites using jsp, which for all the links you posted, you haven't been able to show.More and larger sites use php than jsp. I pointed out ebay, which is still using dlls for much of it's heavy load. You brought up playboy, which seems to be mostly a static site running some cgi scripts: http://cyber.playboy.com/cgi/ab.cgi."
eBay used to use a dll. The dll is their old architecture, when they finish the migration the dll will disapear. eBay is a complicated site and the migration will take time. A lot of ebay is currently running on websphere. You can't easily tell because they don't use the .jsp extention for their files. That's a big site. They may have 1/3rd the traffic of yahoo but their profits and revenues are about the same. Playboy does use java. I think they use a mixture of JBoss and Tomcat. Just because a page says .html doesn't mean it's a static page. A lot of times, I've noticed this with JBoss especially, files look like html but they're not. You can see this at the sims online too, which also uses jboss. Look at this url from playboy http://www.playboy.com/magazine/playmate.html?sour ce=playmate_sectionfront since when can you pass query parameters to STATIC HTML? We used this technique with sites I've worked on as well where we set up our container to recognize .html files as jsps. If you look at netcraft.com for the server info you'll see playboy.com uses mod_jk whick is the connector to Tomcat. Sometimes it's hard to tell what sites use java since many times they'll use a servlet controller that calls the jsp's behind the scenes. Sometimes you'll see a .do which is the typical way to use Struts, but not always. Here's a bit of info on capital one they use java for a lot of their stuff. I think they use oracle's application server. B&H Photo uses java for their ecommerce site (Probably the most popular online photo/video retailer) but you can't easily tell from looking at the urls unless you know what to look for. bnh is the servlet context, controller is the main servlet handler and home is a page handler. Years ago they used to use Bluestones application server. Now it seems they're just using Netscape Enterprise Server. If your brouse certain sites with cookies disabled you can sometimes see a jsessionid in the url, that's a sign it's running a java web container. Verizon Online uses Java for their clients web email and a bunch of other support functions. Have a look at Bea's Client list among some other big names you'll find Amazon.com and FedEx. Ofoto.com, now Kodak Easy Share, uses jsp. Here's a story on jboss writing their own postnuke style cms in java because php didn't scale as well. These are just the few I could remember off the top of my head. And I've done my own benchmarks for m
That's what happens when you consolidate your energies rather than using a random collection. I'd be interested to know what these other languages were.
"It's much faster to write the application in php, then identify performance issues and code those functions as c++ extentions than it is to write the whole thing in java. This is Radwin's point, and I've seen it proven repeatedly in practice."
There's a problem with that. You now have to have developers know php and c++ which negates one of the benefits of PHP being easier to program. Whereas with Java you're starting off with better speed and if you need to go to native api's you can still do that through JNI and going from java to cpp is a lot easier than going from php to cpp from a coding perspective. (The languages are more alike).
"'Java's as fast as C++'. OMFG. LOL."
Ok, now I know you haven't used java or haven't touched it in years. On the server side JIT compilation really shows it's strengths. And things are going to only get better as cpu's continue to have greater threading capabilities which PHP can't usually take advantage of until more modules are made thread safe. JIT compilers can inline a method increasing performance and use other static calls. Intel worked on features of the P4 and Xeon processors to perform better with code with a lot of branching and inderection. They did this with JVM's in mind. The JIT compiler can reduce the number of branches and it's branch prediction is right most of the time. More than static compilers anyway. Delays on these processors for a correctly predicted branch are down to almost zero clock cycles.
Here are some links in case you don't believe me.
Java Pulling Ahead, Java faster than c++, Computer Language Shootout, http://www.tommti-systems.de/main-Dateien/reviews/ languages/benchmarks.html">This shows them mostly similar, this is an interesting read too
filthy bar wenches no doubt
I'm not a newbie when it comes to linux and I've used unix for a while too. But I seem to have had better luck with the newbie distros. A few years ago I was trying to get linux on an old sparstation 20. I tried all sorts of things on it but the only one I really had success with was Mandrake. Eventually I went back to solaris because Sun wasn't providing a JDK for linux at the time.
I'm probably going to install Sarge on that laptop but I'm in no rush, it's pretty much just a terminal server client. I should just figure out how to roll my own and put it on a cd so that all it is is twm and a vncviewer.
Ok I was off on the number of hits but that link you provided just proves that php is used for the presentation logic. Sounds like they're still using a good bit c/c++ for the business logic. You obviously didn't read the comments of the blog where Michael Radwin said:
"And of course their processing isn't all PHP. In fact one of Radwin's core points was that you can take repeatedly run php scripts, and turn them into php extentions to improve performance. It would be foolish to do heavy processing in php (or jsp)."
Ok so you agree yahoo isn't completely done in PHP. The heavy processing is done in c/c++.
And you're right. You wouldn't want to do the heavy processing in JSP. But you can do it in Java and most people do. So you're still using the same technology, Java, throughout. When Java runs on a server it gets compiled to native code and can run as fast as c++. Radwin himself says "He's right that Java is actually faster than PHP because Java is a compiled language and PHP is not." He also says that 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter, but when you can use java instead of c++ and keep a consistent development language through out the project then it makes a big difference.
If you want more detail you can view the pdf of the ebay presentation from javaone at http://javaoneonline.mentorware.net/servlet/mware. servlets.StudentServlet?mt=1059358931640&mwaction= showDescr&class_id=21813&subsysid=2000&fromtopic=S earch That type of architecture is probbaly going to go over most people's heads. Have a look at some of the tutorials at http://www.netbeans.com/
So PHP may be easier for some people but c/c++ certainly isn't as easy. If you're going to have to learn a high level language why not choose one you canuse consistently throughout?
"So the question was what servers would be required to get jsp to compete on scalability with php, and your answer is Solaris? Or do you just not have any idea?"
I've personally run servlet containers like tomcat on windows, red hat, debian and solaris. All you need is an OS, (you can get debian or solaris 10 for free), a JDK (you can download Sun's JDK for windows, solaris and linux for free), a servlet container (you can get Tomcat for free and it runs on windows, unix, linux and others). In my tests on windows and solaris x86 I found that Tomcat 5.5 was faster than Apache/PHP by about 2x. That's pretty sad considering my php page just had a couple of includes and a little bit of formatting logic while my Java page did a hell of a lot more including connecting to a database!
Look at playboy.com, they use a lot of tomcat, resin and I think even jboss.
" When is Sun going to open source java?"
Who knows and frankly I don't care. It's free enough for me. Kaffe, GCJ, GNU Classpath and Apache's Ha
No, you're right, but by abstracting the databse calls like that you have a single point to make changes if you ever want to switch rdmb's in the future. Which does happen. So you call format_table(get_data()) and you don't care what database you're hitting. If you change to oracle or mysql in the future, you just have to change your get_data and maybe your format methods instead of going into every file that has pg_connect in it and changing it.
I think this is a point you understand based on what you said, you just didn't explicitly say it.
It doesn't matter what Yahoo is running or what eBays is running. The vast majority of people out there are not going to be building sites that handle anywhere near the traffic that those sites handle. If your page renders in 100ms or 200ms it's not that big a deal.
What is important is that you figure out your needs, know what you need to plan ahead for, evaluate the available resources to achieve your goals and choose a solution that works with the skillsets of your team. Making a decision based on what unrelated websites use is a mistake. Almost anything can work. eBay went for years running on a single 3.3 million line dll. Eventually it got to much for them and made it difficult to add enhancements so they switched to J2EE. Yahoo built their own scripting language because there really wasn't anything comparable out there at the time. They even used their own webserver until apache was good enough.
I don't understand the point of this statment. What yahoo said was they didn't choose jsp/java because FreeBSD's threads suck. That's not Java's fault. That's FreeBSD's fault.
"Of course we don't know how much it would cost to scale jsp to handle yahoo's load b/c no one has tried it yet."
We also don't know how much it will cost for Yahoo to completely handle Yahoo's load. Yahoo didn't rewrite their whole site in php and according to them, they have no plans to. "With recent advances in PHP, we have decided to adopt it for some of our new developments, in preference to some of our internally developed technologies,"
They're basically using it for new stuff instead of yScript2. And according to the presentation, one of the reasons they chose PHP is that they can tie it in to their existing C/C++ backend or to new C/C++ code when performance is critical.
So, we don't know how much of Yahoo's processing is done by PHP, yScript, yScript2 or C/C++. But we do know that it's not all PHP. And they're not using PHP alone, they're using ioncube's php accelerator which is free but not open source.
I don't know if you're trolling or you've only read the headlines. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of not knowing the details. That link to the presentation should clear up some stuff.
"Hopefully ebay will release some numbers when they get it going and then we will have some real world data use to evaluate whether jsp can scale to handle the loads php can, and what that might cost to do."
Sun had released some information regarding eBay. They were consutling on the project as well. Their servers are Sun servers running Solaris. eBay gets something like 1Billion hits a day, which is comparable to yahoo which I think gets 1.5Billion. Yahoo has over 4500 servers, that works out to about 333,333 hits per server per day. That doesn't sound all that impressive to me.
Hopefully ebay will release some numbers when they get it going and then we will have some real world data use to evaluate whether jsp can scale to handle the loads php can, and what that might cost to do.
" By the way, do you think IBM's 'embrace' of PHP might have something to do with their experience with ebay?"
IBM will embrace anything they think will make them money. I don't think it had anything to do with eBay. IBM makes hundreds of millions of dollars from Java. The deal IBM struck with Zend is to develop Zend Core for IBM which is just a set of tools and integrations into IBM's database products. Namely cloudscape and db2. Cloudscape is open sourced but db2 isn't. Couldscape is a teaser to try and get people into DB2 if their needs ever outgrow cloudscape. All IBM is trying to do is get PHP developers to buy more of their products.
If you only read the headlines I can see how you might think more is going on but it's not.
No idea. Apparently there are a lot of them. This quote is from Zend.com "Due to the fact that there are more rather than less of non-thread safe libraries...". (page http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week131.php#Heading3 )
It's a shame too. Apache 2 can be up to 3 times faster than 1.3 using mpm-worker.
Try asking IBM Global Services that.
"And evaluated & rejected J2EE and jsp in the process. I'll let you google that for yourself:-)."
Don't have to google it since I already know the answer. Have a look at why yahoo didn't choose JSP here.
So if it wasn't for FreeBSD, yahoo might have gone with JSP.
I've actually found jsp/servlet on Tomcat to be quite a bit faster than Apache/PHP on the same server.