Test Driving Linux

Michael J. Ross writes "As Windows users hear more about Linux, they may be intrigued to give it a try, if only to learn what the buzz is about. But a major hurdle, possibly the most daunting, is how to obtain and install Linux on their PCs without disrupting their Windows installation. To the average PC user (not a techie), the required steps are intimidating; to a computer newbie, they appear impossible. But with the introduction of Linux in the form of 'live CDs,' trying out Linux is as easy as popping a CD into one's computer and rebooting. The entire operating system is stored on the CD, thus avoiding having to install it on the hard drive. Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds , by David Brickner, includes a live CD and explains how to use it." Read on for the rest of Ross's review. Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds author David Brickner pages 341 publisher O'Reilly Media rating 8 reviewer Michael J. Ross ISBN 059600754X summary A guide for trying Linux on a bootable CD included with the book

This title is another in the growing list of books published by O'Reilly Media, whose user group representative kindly gave me a copy of the book to review. The book comprises 341 pages, and has plenty of screenshots, an appendix of solutions, and a Linux CD secured in an envelope within the back cover.

The particular Linux distribution ("distro") provided on the book's CD is Move, which is based upon Mandriva Linux, which was formerly known as Mandrake. While most Linux aficionados have their favorite distro, and can argue vehemently in favor of one against all others, there is widespread agreement in the Linux community that Mandrake established itself as a solid choice years ago.

Brickner begins this manuscript with an enthusiastic first chapter in which he introduces the computer neophyte to Linux, using cars and test driving as analogies. He briefly mentions how Linux got started, how it fits into GNU/Linux, and what the terms "free software" and "open source" mean. He then describes how to get started with Move by booting off of the CD -- assuming that one's computer has the minimum system requirements (detailed in the book's preface). Non-confident readers will likely appreciate the author's reassuring explanation that Move will not affect their computer's current setup. The chapter continues with an explanation of the KDE desktop, its "kicker" panel, the look and feel of a typical KDE application, window control, desktop background customization, KDE programs that replace Windows applications, and finally how to log out properly.

The next nine chapters of the book cover major application areas, and how to perform common tasks using the corresponding KDE applications of those areas: Web surfing (using Konqueror or Mozilla), file management (Konqueror again), music and videos, games, communication (e-mail and instant messaging), digital image editing (using the GIMP), desktop customization (using the KDE Control Center), office suite (OpenOffice.org), and money management. The final three chapters explore the Linux command line (Konsole), popular programs that are not included on the CD, and advice to those users who decide to switch over to Linux long-term.

In all of the chapters devoted to the major KDE applications, Brickner does a competent job of explaining the basics to the beginner, including handy summaries for more proficient users (such as keyboard shortcuts), and plenty of screenshots that help the reader to verify that they are running the correct application under discussion, and that they are looking in the right places within the application windows. However, all of the figures are in black and white, which makes distinguishing text extremely difficult in those cases where adjacent colors, that are typically well contrasting, merge into shades of dark gray. In addition, I spotted one erratum, on page 84, in which the first letter of "Booting advice for Move" is in a strangely different font, for no apparent reason. This is not representative of the book as a whole, which is well-made, neatly laid out, and uses a flexible layout-flat binding.

Brickner helpfully warns the user of potential pitfalls, such as showstopper dialog boxes being hidden by other Windows. He should be commended for advising the user to set their browser identification to alternatives other than Internet Explorer, if only to encourage Web site owners to not limit the browsers that will work with their sites. One minor error in the browser chapter is, when referring to the Gecko rendering engine used by Mozilla, the author incorrectly identifies it as "gecko," though that may have been an error on the part of the publisher.

For those users who enjoy trying out Linux enough to consider abandoning Windows completely, the final chapter of the book will be most welcome. Brickner identifies which distros are capable of resizing an NTFS-formatted partition; this determines whether or not a user can install that distro on a hard drive already containing Windows, and thus have a dual-boot system. He also distinguishes between those distros that are Windows-like, in that the Linux characteristics are hidden as much as possible, versus those which make no such effort. One potential weakness in his discussion, is that he mentions the ability or inability of particular editions of various distros to authenticate against Windows servers, and yet he does not explain to the reader what that means. On the other hand, any reader who does not understand the idea, probably does not need to.

Overall, I found this book to be worthy of recommendation to anyone who would like to learn more about how to use a robust Linux distro on a live CD. The coverage of topics appears complete, at least for those tasks that the typical computer user needs to perform on a daily basis. There are few errors in the text, and the author has done an admirable job of warning the reader as to potential problems, as well as noting when certain features will not work when running off of the CD, and why. These explanations go a long way to assuaging the reader, who might otherwise become frustrated and conclude that either Move is not operating properly, or that they are doing something wrong. The publisher's choice to use only black and white images, no doubt has the advantage of keeping the book's cost reasonable (a list price of U.S. $24.95), but it has the disadvantages of reducing the utility of those illustrations -- especially when discussing color customization -- in addition to the aforesaid problem of adjacent grayscale regions merging into dark blobs that are difficult to distinguish from one another.

Test Driving Linux is clearly of value in better introducing the public to the power and promise of Linux. It is undoubtedly one of the most user-friendly tools that could assist Linux advocates in spreading the word, and encouraging computer users to break away from operating systems that are expensive, buggy, and non-secure. As Brickner notes in his preface, when people unfamiliar with Linux give it a test drive, by simply booting off of the CD provided with the book, they just might want to stay with Linux long-term.

Michael J. Ross is a freelance writer, computer consultant, and the editor of PristinePlanet.com's free newsletter. You can purchase Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

Comments

linux distro is Move?

[blanks]

Very strange distro to have with this book, they should have chossen one of the "buzz" distros, sience this is what the book is about. Not trying to start a distro war, but come on, a distro that has a name people would have heard once or twice would have been nice.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[Anonymous Coward]

He explains this in the article. He says that the Move CD is based on Mandriva Linux which is the same distribution as Mandrake used to be. Mandrake is very well known as a very good distribution. It is the first one that I myself used as that is all that my local Wal-Mart had at the time and I did not have access to a high speed connection nor a cd burner. Nowadays, I prefer Slackware but that is just a personal choice. Of course nowadays cd burners are cheap and so are high speed connections. So I burned a copy of almost every major distro out there(to include but not limited to Redhat, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu). Of course I know Ubuntu is an offset of Debian and Fedora is an offset of Redhat, but I am trying to make a point. The point is that anyone can download and burn Linux to a CD nowadays. Another point is that Mandrake is a very good distro that I preferred at one time.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[m50d]

I think it's what used to be MadrakeMove. Mandrake has always been the distribution I'd recommend to newbies.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[psymastr]

The point is that anyone can download and burn Linux to a CD nowadays.

No.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[WesG]

Using something like Virtual PC is a much better way to test drive different Linux distros(or any x86 OS).

No need to reboot or wait for the CD to load. You can also run multiple Linux distros at the same time and compare features between the OS's.

Whats most refresing is the ability to switch between Linux and Windows without rebooting. Dual booting is so 1990's. As PC's get faster and more powerful, running mulitple OS's at the same time is a much more powerful option.

I currently run Ubuntu under Microsoft's Virtual PC product. I can develop and test my apps in Perl and then switch back to Windows to run my Windows apps and games.

If you have never used Virtual PC or want more information, check it out at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/default .mspx

Good luck!

Re:linux distro is Move?

[Hosiah]

is all that my local Wal-Mart had at the time

You...found Linux at Walmart? Walmart will actually sell Linux? Hope for civilization, yet!

Last time I checked a Walmart, they didn't even carry computer software, but I guess it's a matter of which one you hit.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[christophersaul]

I think you're missing the point of the article. Non technical users who have heard about Linux and would like to try it out in an easy fashion are harly likely to purchase Virtual PC and burn CDs from multiplt distros.

Re:linux distro is Move?

[KermitJunior]

You do realize that Walmart has sold PCs preloaded with Linux for quite some time now, right? Check Walmart.com for details.

Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[FidelCatsro]

Great idea and all , but Id be amazed if you could power down windows in that time , never mind boot a live CD ...(not entirely meant to be that serious a remark)

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[Anonymous Coward]

Just turn off the power? You're going to erase it all anyway.

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[Sinus0idal]

As I often tell people who routinely do just that - you shouldn't rely on journaling (ntfs/ext3) to avoid corrupting data. It is meant as a failsafe afterall..

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[Bad D.N.A.]

60 seconds?

I'd just be happy if Knoppix booted at all.

Well, it's not quite that bad. It boots on 2 of my three systems (kind of).

Background....

I run Linux everyday (at work). I log into my xp desktop then ssh to my redhat box. I map a network drive and use Xvision (an sco product...gasp) for my X functions. That is where I get my real work done. Of course the emacs and such are local on my XP box but I "make" like the best of them.

I don't do this because I like to, I do it because that is what my co provides.
I'm not an admin as you can tell. I'm a sci. guy. I work with the tools available to me.

3 systems in review.

1. Old Dell laptop, PIII.
Knoppix boots just fine, all looks good until I try to access the outside world. Well I have a Linksys WUSB12 wireless USB stick for access. As far as I can tell it's not supported under Linux at all (bummer). Any hints?

2. My home hacked together (by me) system, well over 2 years old.
Nothing special, P4, Asus board, enermax power supply, WD HD, but of course I've got a MS keyboard and mouse. When I pop in the Knoppix CD it boots, but no mouse and no keyboard at all (bummer). Never gotten far enough to see if my D-link wireless would work. Any hints again?

3. My work system
New fancy dell screamer, flat screen, probably a ms keyboard and mouse as well, etc... frozen boot. I have to pull the power cord, reinsert, and quickly eject the CD during bios boot to get the system back (bummer).

My only point is this. I would love to slowly transition to Linux on the desktop but until I can get my work done without taking a sabbatical and purchasing Linux-approved-supported hardware ( Yea I do understand it's a driver problem) I just don't have the time.

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[Anonymous Coward]

Copy & paste your post at the Knoppix.net forums. The people there deal with knoppix & hardware issues all the time.

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[BlueStrat]

" Great idea and all , but Id be amazed if you could power down windows in that time , never mind boot a live CD ...(not entirely meant to be that serious a remark)"

I will note that LiveCDs do not boot as fast as an installed-to-hard-drive OS. That being said, the linux desktops (installed) that I've experienced typically boot a bit faster than 98SE, 2000, or XP that I've typically had set up to dual-boot.

A bit off-topic, but I was impressed with FreeSBIE 1.1, http://www.freesbie.org/ an installable (using the BSD Installer http://www.bsdinstaller.org/ ) FreeBSD-based LiveCD (version 1.2 due soon). I didn't take measurments, but it seemed to boot significantly faster than the average linux LiveCD, and the system after installation (after installing, you have a 5.3-STABLE FreeBSD system w/desktop, XFCE4 or fluxbox) booted much faster than either windows or linux.

One of the cool things with FreeSBIE is the inclusion of scripts to allow you to build your own custom FreeBSD LiveCD .iso images.

Just my $0.02

Strat

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[Anonymous Coward]

Does you fancy new work system from Dell feature SATA drives? You might want to try setting them to "Combination" mode in the BIOS. I had to do that to get a Linux rescue CD to boot on a GX280, otherwise it was as you describe, lockup at boot.

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[dylan_-]

Well I have a Linksys WUSB12 wireless USB stick for access. As far as I can tell it's not supported under Linux at all (bummer). Any hints?

This guy has an article telling how he got his working.

I've no idea why your keyboard and mouse aren't working since I've never had that problem, ever. Doesn't matter that they're Microsoft, since they should still work as standard (I use an MS mouse on my Linux box).

Re:Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds

[FictionPimp]

I've never had a problem with anything but sound and wireless with linux. I always build my own computers though, but I just grab whatever the most popular bleeding edge stuff is at the time.

My sound issues were all resolved with the latest version of ubuntu. Wireless is still spotty, but I only use it so I dont waste my bandwith on long downloads.

Pictures?

[Anonymous Coward]

This title is another in the growing list of books published by O'Reilly Media, whose user group representative kindly gave me a copy of the book to review. The book comprises 341 pages, and has plenty of screenshots, an appendix of solutions, and a Linux CD secured in an envelope within the back cover

"Lots of screenshots?" Is that the technical termonolgy for "It's got plenty of pictures?" Because it's hard to read a book without pictures.

(kidding)

True.

[Poromenos1]

This applies not only to the computer newbie, but also to experienced users. I use Windows XP but I want to dual-boot to Linux for various obvious reasons. Installing Linux on the same HDD as Windows is too risky (I have tried it before two or three times, and I had to repair windows and reinstall the service packs before they would boot). LiveCDs aren't really a good solution if you want to use Linux as your (even secondary) OS, because saving data is not as practical and they take more to load. Virtualisation is a better alternative, although it is still a bit slower than the real thing and graphics aren't supported so well... What's a man to do?

Re:True.

[blanks]

I have had this same problem many of times, most installs requires 3 installs. 1: install linux on second partition. 2: reinstall windows because partition 1 was formattted. 3: install linux again.

Best bet is to allways backup everything on your windows machine, I normally use this as a good reason to reinstal windows every few months.

Re:True.

[non-poster]

What's a man to do?

Well, to start with, install Linux correctly. If you have an existing Windows partition, you probably want to use the Linux tool resizentfs (or ntfsresize or whatever it's called) that comes on most distribution's install CD's, unless you have partition magic or something like that. Most modern Linux distributions' install programs will automatically put your Window's partition into the boot loader so it is a menu option when booting.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone needing to install a service pack to boot, but then again, I don't spend much time following all of the problems with Windows...

Re:True.

[phaetonic]

Use another hard drive for just Linux. You will not have to touch your Windows install.

Re:True.

[mikael]

Which Linux distribution did you use?

To install Fedora Core 3 onto my PC, I do the following:

1. Install Windows XP
2. Remove windows swap space (uses space at very end of partition)
3. Defragment drive
4. Run Knoppix CD and use qtparted to resize NTFS partition
5. Reboot PC with Windows XP - NTFS realizes it has been lobotimized and validates partition
6. Reinstall Windows swap space (768 MB)
6. Install Linux using whatever version you want.
7. Reboot PC

Finished - one dual boot PC ready for use.

Re:True.

[mc clown]

I've done that many times....and I've never really had a problem especially not in recent years

Re:True.

[Suicyco]

Hmm. Took me about 30 minutes to have a dual boot winxp box. What is risky about installing Linux onto a seperate partition on the same hdd as windows? Do the files residing near each other somehow "break" things?

What "various obvious reasons" do you need to use Linux if you primarily use winxp?

You probably just screwed up your boot loader, common with installing linux after installing windows. Super easy to fix. What that would have to do with service packs is beyond me. Probably thats just what the "repair" mode if windows does, which all you really needed to fix was the boot loader.

Re:True.

[EdelFactor19]

Honestly, it sounds to me like you dont know what you are doing.. Installing linux on the same HDD as windows isn't risky at all IMHO, and in fact just about everyone i know using linux and windows still uses that exact approach, its fine as long as you know what you are doing... this is no caveat special to linux, even intalling another version of windows side by side with windows can seriously screw up your HDD if you dont know what you're doing. Either way, i've done this more times than i can count, first for myself, and later for others and not once have i had to repair windows, or reinstall service packs.

if you are really worried about them being on the same disc, then consider this, hard drives are dirt cheap these days, i bought a seagate 120gigger for 50 bucks after a 50 dollar rebate... throw in this second hard drive, grab a simple and noob friendly distro like fedora core3 and install...
when setting up partitions, you wont need a special thing to resize ntfs since there wont be any ntfs on this second hard drive.. just install linux on it, etc. and remember to choose grub for bootloader

now all you have to do is setup grub which is very simple.. just make sure you install grub to the MBS.. theres lots of help for grub, and the fedora default grub setup is usually pretty decent, requiring only minor tweaks. in your case your linux stuff will all be on (hd1,x) and your windows would be (hd0,x) assuming you have only two standard hard drives...

personally all of my installs are on a common hard drive and i have never once had to try multiple times, or reinstall service packs or anything like that, and i only started using linux in 2002, (red hat 7.3 valhalla for those who are curious) this install was done on a laptop with no problems and didnt even harm the IBM rescue recovery partition... Even with my desktop i use the same approach, i have one drive which is simply the windows OS and the linux OS's, and i have a seperate drive (used to be partitions back when drives werent so cheap) where i keep my large data files, like the gigs upon gigs of music, videos, games, artwork, etc.

as much as im not a live cd user, there is a way to save your data, again you have to think a little bit.. if you were only having problems with boot up issues, or didnt want to deal with grub, or did have a partition you could get rid or extra space, simply format it to ext2 (or ur fave linux fs) and after booting from the live cd, mount it.. not that hard.

trying out linux is pretty easy compared to a lot of things... a windows user cant exactly "try" out the Mac OS X without buying an entire seperate machine, and the same would go vice versa.. however with a x86 PC its very easy to not only dual boot between windows/linux; but you could go further and have multiple linux distros to boot between.
While it seems cumbersome from the outside its simple once you get going... IMHO larger problems are the amount of windows users who are still despite years of using a computer still effectivly newbies to the computer because they dont know how to do anything. They can read their email, and do word... but if anything goes wrong they dont have a clue, and they will be helpless no matter what OS they are using. If you're willing to spend a little effort to search or lookup the answer for a linux question you can almost always find it, or find a linux user who'd be happy to help. Linux people are pretty good about helping noobs, since a. they were one once probably not long ago, b. the whole open source nature of community involved with linux, and c. the more of us using it, the less people using MS which will put eventually put more and more pressure on companies to support linux

Re:True.

[suitepotato]

I find it odd that so many experienced Linux people find dual-booting on the same drive Linux to be "risky". With System Commander and its partition program, or even with Disk Druid during the FC3 install process, it is a snap to do it and I've never had an issue.

But then I'm an experienced Windows user as well. I do note the majority of experienced Linux people are absolutely lost when it comes to Windows. Odd, because it is easier to use and less idiosyncratic than any variety of Unix. Point, click, done. Been multi-booting for a very long time now without a hitch, including OS/2 (it had a tendency to write things to FAT partitions that Windows/DOS couldn't read).

Re:True.

[ncc74656]

Most modern Linux distributions' install programs will automatically put your Window's partition into the boot loader so it is a menu option when booting.

Given Windows' propensity for fscking with the MBR seemingly at will and for being somewhat twitchy when another OS changes things around, you might be better off having your Linux setup leave the MBR alone. Have your Linux bootloader write itself to a floppy, dd the first block of the floppy to a file, and move that file someplace where Windows can see it. A one-line change to c:\boot.ini will add an option to the NT bootloader to hand control to the Linux bootloader. My dual-boot systems are set up that way.

For a dual-boot system, GRUB might be a better choice than LILO. If you change the partition table on your HD within Windows, the order of partitions in the table might change. Let's say that /dev/hda4 is your Windows partition, /dev/hda1 is /, /dev/hda2 is /boot, and /dev/hda3 is swap. If you resize the Windows partition (with PartitionMagic, for instance), you might find that the resized Windows partition is now /dev/hda1 and /, /boot, and swap have moved to /dev/hda2, 3, and 4. With GRUB, you'll be able to edit the kernel options at boot time so you can at least boot to single-user mode. Once you're there, editing /etc/fstab and rebooting will get your Linux system working again. Doing the same with LILO installed would most likely involve booting Linux from a CD...if you don't have a boot CD with you, you're SOL.

Re:True.

[Barnoid]

if you really start with
1. Install Windows XP
I suggest not to use the whole harddisk for your Windows installation. Then you'd end up with:

1. Install Windows XP
6. Install Linux using whatever version you want
7. Reboot PC

Re:True.

[crawly]

Cooperative Linux
http://www.colinux.org/

Re:True.

[Toby_Tyke]

1. Install Windows XP 2. Remove windows swap space (uses space at very end of partition) 3. Defragment drive 4. Run Knoppix CD and use qtparted to resize NTFS partition 5. Reboot PC with Windows XP - NTFS realizes it has been lobotimized and validates partition 6. Reinstall Windows swap space (768 MB)

Well, yes, that would work. But tell me, if your starting from scratch, why give windows the whole drive then go through the whole process of resizing the partition? Why not just start out with FDISK, and create a FAT partition of the size you want, and install windows on that?

Re:True.

[mikael]

Because the laptop we use (Sony) only have an recovery/installation disk that installs Windows XP as two partitions. No Windows XP custom installation.

Re:True.

[Anonymous Coward]

Used this tutorial to dualboot XP and Linux.
Worked with no problem and XP and Linux are
not effected by each other. The only thing
is if XP needs a reinstall you have to reinstall
and format bootpart again but the Linux
distro is not effected at all.

http://minislackforum.mot-studios.com/forum/viewto pic.php?t=227

Re:True.

[jayloden]

I started my Linux experience by installing a dual-boot Windows XP system with Mandrake Linux.

The experience went exactly like this:
1) Boot from Mandrake CD
2) Begin installation
3) Get to the partitioning section
4) Mandrake installer detects "you have Microsoft Windows"
5) Mandrake asks if I want to "use entire disk", "install Mandrake Linux to unused space on the Windows partition", or "custom disk partitioning"
6) I choose "install to unused space on Windows partition"
7) Mandrake asks me what size I want the NTFS (Windows) partition, I choose to split it somewhere around the half mark
8) Mandrake makes the linux partitions automagically and continues the installation

That was pretty much it, it wasn't scary or hard, and both Mandrake and the Windows install worked just fine afterwards. Even better, Mandrake added "Microsoft Windows XP Professional" to my boot menu. All was very easy and convenient for a relatively experienced Windows user, and I've done it many many times since then with various distributions and never had Windows be corrupted or any other problems. I've since switched entirely to Linux and touch Windows only when absolutely necessary, but without that first experience, I'd still be using Windows. For the first time around, I recommend Mandrake(Mandriva) Linux, their installer makes it about as easy and convenient as you could expect it to be.

Hope that helps,
-Jay

Re:True.

[westlake]

For a dual-boot system...Let's say that /dev/hda4 is your Windows partition, /dev/hda1 is /, /dev/hda2 is /boot, and /dev/hda3 is swap...

congratulations. you have lost your potential convert in a hopeless tangle of jargon, and it will be a cold day in hell before he even thinks about booting into Linux.

Re:True.

[anon37]

That was true a couple years ago when one had to play complex games with Windows options to shrink the NTFS partition. However, recent versions of NTFSresize now make this process simple and reliable.

Re:True.

[timbo234]

With Mandriva:

1. Install Windows XP
2. Defragment drive
3. Run Mandriva installation and select 'automatic partitioning' during install
4. Reboot PC
5. Profit!.. oh wait

Re:True.

[BlueStrat]

I have to agree with jayloden, the Mandrake/Mandriva installer makes dual-booting and resizing the windows partition a snap even for newbies. If you have a windows OS already installed, before the installation simply run scandisk then thoroughly defragment.

My first linux system was Debian 'Woody' a few years ago. Compared to that, the Mandrake/Mandriva installer was a whole new world. A few basic questions about the install and then just wait 20-30 minutes and change CDs when prompted while everything installs, then boot into your new system. No multiple-reboots during install, no CD keys or activation like windows.

Cheers!

Strat

Re:True.

[ozmanjusri]

Given Windows' propensity for fscking with the MBR seemingly at will and for being somewhat twitchy when another OS changes things around, you might be better off having your Linux setup leave the MBR alone

Garbage. Windows won't change the boot record randomly, and for the average user there's no reason to do anything but accept the default that your distro offers you when setting boot options.

Re:True.

[Xabraxas]

I find it odd that so many experienced Linux people find dual-booting on the same drive Linux to be "risky". With System Commander and its partition program, or even with Disk Druid during the FC3 install process, it is a snap to do it and I've never had an issue.

Very true. I've found the same is true of Suse. It practically invites you to dual boot. The only time I ever installed a dual boot system was with Suse and it installed fine and even made a grub menu option for me. All I had to do was install Windows on it's own partition and then install Suse. Funny thing was that Suse detected all my hardware without a hitch. XP needed SATA drivers off a floppy and wouldn't even load the install CD with the video card that I was using. I had to grab a spare and install it that way.

Re:True.

[advocate_one]

a far better option is just to wipe windows off completely... duel booting is just a crutch to keep yourself in the warm fuzzy blanket of windows... go cold turkey and be a real man/woman... you'll thank yourself later

Re:True.

[ajs318]

I'll second that. Due to mis-copying a serial number I was unable to install Win98SE when I built myself an Athlon XP2000+ box. This was at the time when this was the fastest processor on the planet. Desperate to feel the raw power of this beast before a newer processor came out and spoiled it all, I slapped Mandrake Linux on as a single-boot just to get the damn thing up and running.

I haven't touched Windows since.

Go on! You don't need Windows. If it can't be done using Open Source alone, then do it by hand just like everyone did before computers. Just imagine that if you made your system dual-booting, the whole Open Source community would be standing around you in a big circle, making chicken noises .....

Re:True.

[rikkards]

He said that he had to do a repair. This potentially copies files off of the original cd. If he hasn't slipstreamed the latest Service Pack into his cd, it could put on old files that were patched later on. Thus needing to reapply the latest Service pack to get the latest files back.

Re:True.

[rikkards]

Most times your Windows partition is at the beginning of the disk thus considered hda1. Usually resizing would be shrinking the partition and putting Linux after it which would make your / etc be hda2, etc.

The only way in your explanation that Windows would move from hda4 to hda1 is if you deleted the first 3 partions and then moved the Windows partition to the beginning of the drive and recreated the rest. Plus most often you never see a hda4 but instead a hda5 etc as they are logical partitions.

Point is that you would never see these results if all you do is resize, the whole partition numbers changing would only happen if you resized and created partitions in between.

Re:True.

[Vince Mo'aluka]

And when you go to reinstall windows, it's as easy as unplugging the linux disk and moving your windows disk to the primary channel (as if the linux disk never existed). Clean and straightforward, much easier than messing around with partitions.

Re:True.

[rikkards]

I found the same thing with Gentoo as well.

Re:True.

[Deideldorfer]

I dual boot using Windows-only and Ubuntu-only hard disks. The problem with this setup is that now I am ready to go Linux-only, but the MBR is on the Windows HD. So now I have to figure out how to make a valid MBR on the linux HD. As long as I am willing to leave the 2 HDs in, it isn't a problem though.

Re:True.

[Proteus]

Interesting. I have found a slightly different system which appears to work well with most distros (I use Mandriva, FC3, Debian, and SuSE [hey, I test apps on Linux for a living]):

1. Boot Linux install CD.
2. Jump to partitioner section (I use the term option, but the GUI partitioner works well too)
3. Set up partitions: /dev/(h|s)da1 is usually /boot and /dev/(h|s)da2 is NTFS for Win. The remaining partitions depend on the config, of course.
4. Remove Linux install CD and shut down.
5. Install WinXP Pro on NTFS partition.
6. Finish XP setup (install SP2, drivers, etc.)
7. Re-boot Linux install CD
8. Install Linux

This keeps XP from trying to bjork the MBR, but allows for it to be installed cleanly. Further, it allows the Linux install to detect the Windows partition for dual-boot. This has been, for me, the most painless way to install a dual-boot Win/Lin system.

Re:True.

[PeterPumpkin]

Actually the least painful way to do it, IF you are installing Windows from scratch, is to create your desired final partition table with fdisk before you install anything. So it would be:

1. Boot up Knoppix, run fdisk
2. Install Windows
3. Install Linux
4. Done

That way you don't have to rely on Windows repairing itself after the fact, which isn't always reliable.

Re:True.

[ncc74656]

The only way in your explanation that Windows would move from hda4 to hda1 is if you deleted the first 3 partions and then moved the Windows partition to the beginning of the drive and recreated the rest. Plus most often you never see a hda4 but instead a hda5 etc as they are logical partitions.

Point is that you would never see these results if all you do is resize, the whole partition numbers changing would only happen if you resized and created partitions in between.

It happened to me recently on my notebook, when I wanted to experiment with an XP install CD created with nLite. After backing up my current install with Ghost and dd'ing c:\bootsect.lnx to a floppy, I booted the CD, deleted the Windows partition (but left the Linux partitions alone), and tried to create a new partition for Windows (I wanted a clean install). Despite having only three primary partitions (one short of the maximum), the XP installer wouldn't create a new partition. I then figured I'd boot Linux (using the aforementioned boot floppy) and use its fdisk to create an NTFS partition. When it booted up, though, none of the Linux partitions were where they should've been. A bit of trial and error got it to boot to single-user mode, where I could use fdisk to see what Windows had changed so I could update /etc/fstab and do a normal boot.

I'll admit that's more than just a resize, but deleting and recreating one partition (in the same size as the original) while leaving the others alone shouldn't have shifted partition numbers around. It doesn't when you use Linux fdisk; why doesn't Windows' partitioning utilities behave the same way?

Re:True.

[rikkards]

Ah that's different. And that is a valid point. The one (but not the only) thing I hate about Windows is if you have two partitions with the OS on C: which is the first partition and another partition and then you delete the first partition. When you go to install Windows again it will expect the existing partition to be C: and will assign the recreated as D:
It would have been nice if you could have assigned drive letters during install.

Very irritating.

Re:True.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Dumping Windows entirely is a great idea. As long as you don't want wireless Interenet access. Or to use a PCI 5.1 soundcard.....

Re:True.

[advocate_one]

strange... the 5.1 soundcard built into this mobo has perfect support and correctly switches the mic and line-in inputs into outputs for the centre/subwoofer and surround channels. Oh and my wireless works perfectly, cos I didn't just pick up the first box I saw... I checked on what others had working beforehand.

Re:True.

[Anonymous Coward]

I did plenty of research beforehand. Went through both Mandrake and Suse. When all was said and done, both worked great...as long as I didn't want to use my *existing* 802.11g and *existing* PCI 5.1 soundcards. Linux is a wonderful option for the those residing on the higher end of the geek scale.

This is where I place myself..but I'm also a 20 year user of PCs, and have gotten used to hardware that, more often than not, works out of the box. I like this because I have other things to do than perform surgery on my OS for each and every thing I want to do.

Switch from XP...

[skalogre]

Tempting, but I am waiting for SymphonyOS to develop more before I spend more Linux time.

Re:Switch from XP...

[skalogre]

PS does not mean I do not like Linux. I just think SymphonyOS is just the thing to get me fascinated with computers again, after the dissappointment of having Amiga die the grisly death of thousand days. Or something like that anyway.

Re:Switch from XP...

[AKAImBatman]

Just so you're aware, you can already download the Alpha version. If you're really interested in the OS, then trying it out and giving constructive feedback may be helpful to the project. :-)

Re:Switch from XP...

[skalogre]

Thank you, but I already have the LiveCD in front of me, tried it on a nasty old Compaq Deskpro EN P-III. Very impressive hardware detection. I am a UI specialist by education so it was rather exciting to see someone pushing something even remotely radical than another nasty Xerox clone UI...

Hell, this is not new

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been giving KNOPPIX cds to my friends for a year now. Best idea going, boot to the CD and start working

Re:Hell, this is not new

[DegeneratePR]

I've also been giving out Knoppix CDs to my friends and other people who have expressed an interest in Linux. They use it, and love it, mostly because of the games.

Then they ask me if they can install it to have it on their systems and be able to save their profiles, work, etc. I normally suggest a more polished desktop system like Suse or Mandrake. When they install it, they just lose interest quickly.

Some people are just afraid of changing or tinkering around with their system to get things the way they were before, so they go back to their comfort zone of Windows. At least that's my take on it.

Re:Hell, this is not new

[Infinityis]

For me, the funny thing was that I had to use Knoppix to install Linux. Windows doesn't come with any decent partitioning software, and QTParted on Knoppix provides a GUI-based partitioning system that even handles NTFS drives. Without that, I'd have had to buy Partition Magic or something to make room for my first Linux installation (which I like very much).

Re:Hell, this is not new

[rikkards]

When I installed Gentoo on my laptop, I used it instead of the LiveCD. This way I could browse the internet while waiting for things to finish compiling.

If you're this much of a newbie

[Anonymous Coward]

You make find even changing your BIOS settings to make your CD drive bootable is impossible.

Not appropriate

[bryan986]

I am a Windows user currently and I find that linux livecd's are not enough for testing the capabilities of linux, often they do not allow me to do enough with the system to thoroughly test the system for compatability, or other times these stock systems do not work with all of my hardware. I think dual booting is a much easier proposition, and the time spend trying to get people to use livecd's would be better spent telling them how to properly install and use linux to its fullest.

Re:Uhhh

[FidelCatsro]

Posted by timothy on Friday June 10, @12:00AM

Im sure he would be Happy to hear complaints that don't concern Rolland Piquepa.

I'm impressed

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

368 pages, including 2 to explain how to pop a CD in the drive, reboot and not be worried about formatting the existing hard-drive, and 366 pages describing software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart.

Come on... That guy David Brickner just wanted to write his very own Linux book and cash in on it.

Re:I'm impressed

[skalogre]

I think that is too harsh. Trust me, there need to be MANY MANY MORE simple, straightforward books demystifying Linux. Especially for novice PC users that can hardly use their PCs. And there needs to be a similar effort with Mac users, LiveCDs and books beckoning them away from the trappings of Steve " I MUST OWN THE WORLD" Jobs.

Re:I'm impressed

[TexVex]

366 pages describing software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart

My God, if only people had to study a couple hundred pages of informative text before being allowed in front of a keyboard...

Re:I'm impressed

[Zutfen]

Well, can you blame him?

I only wish I had thought of it.

1) Write a step by step guide to something anyone can do.
2) Slap a LiveCD version of Linux on the back page
3) ???? (okay, only added for effect, I admit)
4) Profit!!

It could get Linux into the hands of some total neophytes that might not care if it's "Not Windows!!11!one!!" and just be pleased as pie to be operating a computer at all!

More power to him, IMO. (and I think the choice of distro is great for newbies, Mandrake Move is great for beginners.)

Re:I'm impressed

[Anonymous Coward]

"Come on... That guy David Brickner just wanted to write his very own Linux book and cash in on it."

It's called service. You know, the thing that Linux zealots point to when you ask how to make money with "free" software.

Re:I'm impressed

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess he doesn't believe those applications are anywhere as 'easy' and 'intutitive' as you might believe. Funny, how people have different viewpoints.

Re:I'm impressed

[conchobar0928]

I think that, much like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the content isn't as important as the fact that it has "Don't Panic" written on the cover (well, figuratively speaking). It makes the n00bz feel safe and within their range.

Re:I'm impressed

[timbo234]

alternately...

pop a CD in the drive, boot Linux, spend next 2-4 hours with user:
'this is where Word is now'
'oh no it looks different'
'well that's because... and this is where you're documents are'
'why are they in this 'Home Folder' thing, where's My Documents gone'
'Well that's because.. and in Linux we have them here..and..'
etc.etc.

Re:I'm impressed

[wa1ter]

I agree there need to be many more straightforward books but it's getting better (in English anyway. You have to search a while to find something in Dutch any I imagine it's similar for other languages that are not as widely spoken).

I picked up a dutch copy of Linux for non-geeks (Rickford Grant) and gave it to my mom (59).
She's had no problems at all installing Fedora and has since been able to get all the programs she needs (mail, internet and arcade games) to work without my help.

If you want to get users to abandon Windows they'll need step by step guides to take them through everything they need to know and they need to be as basic as they can possibly be.
All they need to do is get their systems running with the programs they need. If they want to learn more there are plenty of books out there that will teach people anything they want to learn.
Let's face it though, just like with cars and toasters, most people are not interested in how it works. They just want it to work.

Re:I'm impressed

[bill_mcgonigle]

Come on... That guy David Brickner just wanted to write his very own Linux book and cash in on it.

So? The market will sort it out.

If he's right he makes lots of money. If you're right he'll have wasted his time and O'Reilly won't publish these kinds of books in the future.

LiveCD Damage

[doswarrior]

I recommended LiveCD distro Ubuntu to a client one time because they wanted to try linux from a safe distance. It ended up throwing a huge 2 gig swap file onto his hard drive and destroying all traces of Win98. I had to undergo the painful task of re-installing Windows 98 on a 100mhz or so laptop (he won't upgrade for anything). Never found out the reason it did that.

Re:LiveCD Damage

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried the SimplyMEPIS LiveCD on my XP machine. All went good until I shutdown SimplyMEPIS and rebooted back into XP to find my network card no longer functioned. Rebooted back into SimplyMEPIS and the network card worked again. Back into XP, no network. Back into SimplyMEPIS, network good. So I decided to hard reset the machine while running SimplyMEPIS and boot into XP. The network card functions once again.

Something that SimplyMEPIS did to the network card while shutting down gracefully somehow disabled the network card. I'll be a lot more cautious about trying a Linux LiveCD again.

Re:LiveCD Damage

[fohat]

Sounds like User Error[tm]...

Re:LiveCD Damage

[poopdeville]

Did you lose the client, cause the business to fold, and get a bad reference?

Does similar exist for learing windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find myself now employed in a windows using company; and honestly, it sucks trying to get up to speed on this thing. Since starting 2 of our servers have been hacked and used for god-knows what; and to the best of anyone's abilities inside the company the best thing we could do about it is "install the latest service packs". There are tons of novice works out there; but are there any that are written with an experienced Mac/Solaris guy in mind?

Re:Does similar exist for learing windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called Windows[version] for dummys.

And speaking of dummys, what idiot would give you a job administering Windows Servers in a production environment if you had no experience doing such?

Can you email me your IP please? :)

Which distros can resize partitions?

[14erCleaner]

Brickner identifies which distros are capable of resizing an NTFS-formatted partition; this determines whether or not a user can install that distro on a hard drive already containing Windows, and thus have a dual-boot system.

When I installed Fedora (core 2) on a Windows laptop last year, I had to use Partition Magic to do the repartitioning. Could somebody comment about which Linux distros now do this for you? I'm genuinely curious (and don't want to shell out $ just to do a one-time system prep for installing dual-boot next time). Thanks...

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[blanks]

SuSE linux has been doing this for a long time now. Its dumbed down to the point where you can simple choose one of 6 sections of what type of linux install you want (server, workstation, developer, etc) and choose what size partition you want to install (again some selection type from radio buttons).

This was a few years ago from my last expierence, but its simple. Its also #1 in Europe, and now owned by Novel.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[bersl2]

QTparted runs as a frontend for parted and ntfsresize seamlessly, or at least the version on Knoppix does.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[14erCleaner]

Hmmm, and to think I gave up SuSe a few years ago (around version 7.3). Maybe it's time to look at it again.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[guyfromindia]

Considering the number of Linux 'gurus' out here, I too am interested in this ...
All I want to do, is to pop a live CD (Ubuntu live, or Knoppix) and partition the HDD, just like Partition Magic. It should be RELIABLE and easy to work with.
Any suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[fishbowl]

>Could somebody comment about which Linux distros
>now do this for you?

Ubuntu does it, as does Debian Sarge. There are quite a few others. What you're looking for is 'ntfsresize', and if you can run that first (say from a rescue disk), you can install any distro you'd like.

One thing I'd like to do, that I haven't figured out how to do yet, is to take an existing dual-boot (XP/Debian) system, resize the NTFS partition, and also resize the ext3 partition by the corresponding amount.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Knoppix + QtParted.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

The last SuSE that I tried was 8.2 Pro (it is quite a few years old now) and that one didn't do the resize for me. However, I was able to boot the CD into a recovery console and use the command line tools to do the resize.... but it wasn't easy. I know I had to boot into Windows XP first, remove the swap file and defrag since the "resize" appears to just make the partition smaller without too much regard to the actual file system!

I believe things are a bit easier now, but I'd be interested in hearing confirmation of this!

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[EdelFactor19]

its simple, at least with partition magic, simply resize the ntfs partition down, and theres an option to give the space to other part's... another way to do it is to simply shrink the windows partition, then create an ext3 partition in this new free space, then move that partition to be adjacent to your original ext3 and then merge them... I've done it several times with partition magic and its rather simple, if you need more detailed help drop me a line

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[m85476585]

I remember using Xandros to resize a FAT32 partition, and I know Knoppix can resize partitions with qtparted, but I haven't used it.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[m85476585]

One thing I'd like to do, that I haven't figured out how to do yet, is to take an existing dual-boot (XP/Debian) system, resize the NTFS partition, and also resize the ext3 partition by the corresponding amount.

I would like to do this too, but with Win 98/Fedora Core 3. Knoppix+QTparted won't detect it for some reason.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[focitrixilous P]

I've just done this to my new laptop now that school is out. Debian 3.1 includes a fairly good partition editor that allowed me to shrink an NTFS partition and then install GRUB to boot both Windows XP and Debian. Ubuntu's latest release also includes this feature. XP will run CHKDSK on it's next load, and then be fine. It's not as graphical as Partition Magic, but it works just as well.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[westyvw]

I havent used partition magic in years, its still around?

Any way qtparted is graphical, easy to use, and I do believe comes with Knoppix and Mepis and Xandros to name 3 live CD's. I have used it many times to partition windows computers (with or without linux on them).

Does partition magic cost $? Yet another good reason for free software: a repeatable simeple tool to build once and use over and over.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[m50d]

That's pretty much impossible since it's impossible to move the start of a filesystem (at least an ext3 one, if the NTFS partition is at the end of the disk it might work). If the "gap" is big enough that you can shrink the NTFS partition, make a new ext3 partition in the gap, move everything from the existing ext3 partition to the new one, delete the old ext3 partition and expand the new one to the end of the disk you can do that, or you could try some sort of shuffling approach.

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[ookaze]

Mandrake (now Mandriva) does that since a long time ago, and Mandrake Move (which is discussed here) does it too, through an option that comes like "let me shrink your Windows and install Linux in the free space"

Re:Which distros can resize partitions?

[fishbowl]

"QTparted runs as a frontend for parted and ntfsresize seamlessly, or at least the version on Knoppix does."

I realize that Knoppix makes it fairly simple, but to make something like this depend on QT, which depends on an environment that can run QT, is pretty crazy for a tool that needs to be run before installing the system.

Tanks

[emurphy42]

In case anyone is wondering what the hell the department tag is talking about:

MGBs, Tanks, and Batmobiles

Re:And linux stores

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

And with businesses like Suso [suso.org] you can actually stop by and pick up a free live CD so that you don't even have to bother downloading and burning the CD.

I'm in Zoowalhakisthan, how long does it take to come pick up a live CD at Suso?

The only people for whom what you said is true are the ones living within 15 minutes drive of Suso, that's 5 minutes getting in the car, 15 minutes driving there, 5 minutes getting the CD, 15 minutes coming back and 5 more minutes getting out of the car. Anybody else can download and burn the ISO faster than that.

Re:A bit of an exaggeration

[Anonymous Coward]

The live CD comes with the book. Nothing to download.

Yup, yup, yup.....

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

I tend to agree that the LiveCD's are a pale stand-in for a full install, but I don't really think dual-boot is often very problimatic. Boxes are cheap, buy one or power up that old one sitting in the corner, and do a full install of some popular distro than has a decent GUI installer (Red Hat...).

My trouble with Linux

[bogaboga]

My trouble with Linux are the fonts. They look somewhat blury as compared to their windows counterparts. I have installed M$ fonts and this has made the situation a bit better, but left the situation still wanting.

My other trouble is in trying to find a package for my distro. Many times, you find a package not built for your distro in the `rpm' format. When you do a `rpm -ivh package-name.rpm --force' you have to be lucky if it works.

Last but not least, 2 points:

1: All Linux distros I have tried feel somewhat heavy - not snappy! Even when I remove all packages that are "server" related , nothing seems to change.

2: I keep wondering why distros do not adopt the promising autopackge system http://autopackage.org/. We must remember that in order to attract users to our Linux system, installations and maintenance of systems MUST be easy and seen to be so. Otherwise, the situation we have now is a pipe dream. Windows still beats us here hands down.

Re:My trouble with Linux

[Ride Jib]

You really need to give Ubuntu a try. I have worked with all of the "newbie" distributions, and this one BY FAR is easier to work with than the others (Fedora, Mandrake, etc.). Also, if you decide to check it out, Ubuntu Guide will help get your feet wet. It will solve your #2 problem. As far as your #1 problem, you just need to spend more time in linux.

Re:My trouble with Linux

[Stevyn]

After using many distros, I've found that fonts on linux look a hell of a lot clearer than on windows. Maybe this is a standard troll spouting mindless gibberish about linux, but what distro are you using that can't render fonts better than windows?

And the "snappy" thing your talking about is related to xfree or xorg, not linux. Linux is just a kernel managing the back end stuff on your computer. the x server and the window manager are the things you probably interact with.

And as for package managers, the main distros all have good software like apt, yast, portage, etc. that manages this very well. I find it easier to type "apt-get ..." or "emerge ..." than hunting down some installer like on windows every time I need a little program.

Re:My trouble with Linux

[njcoder]

I actually installed Ubuntu on an old laptop that used to run Debian Woody. I like Ubuntu. The first thing I noticed was I didn't have to mess around trying to get antialised fonts. The install was long on this pos laptop but it didn't ask too many questions.

I'm not a newbie when it comes to linux and I've used unix for a while too. But I seem to have had better luck with the newbie distros. A few years ago I was trying to get linux on an old sparstation 20. I tried all sorts of things on it but the only one I really had success with was Mandrake. Eventually I went back to solaris because Sun wasn't providing a JDK for linux at the time.

I'm probably going to install Sarge on that laptop but I'm in no rush, it's pretty much just a terminal server client. I should just figure out how to roll my own and put it on a cd so that all it is is twm and a vncviewer.

Re:My trouble with Linux

[trygstad]

Updating packages? Fedora, or any other distro that uses Yum or Apt, really shines at this. Just type "yum install package-name" or "apt-get install package-name" and the system resolves all dependencies, downloads & installs all the dependent packages and then downloads & installs the package. It really is simplicity itself.

Re:My trouble with Linux

[sygin]

You are using a crappy distro. Use a debian based distro. No RPM's, great fonts, easy istall etc. Try UBUNTU, DEBIAN (SARGE) CD1 etc

Re:My trouble with Linux

[Triffid_Hunter]

you haven't tried gentoo

Re:And linux stores

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when are blatant plugs informative?

Re:A bit of an exaggeration

[black_rock]

Remember that the you can bring down the Windows down instantly by flicking the powerswitch behing the computer (ivo-boot). A fast computer (overall speed) and a quality cd-drive should at least get the Linux KERNEL started with time to spare. Booting
to the login screen probably takes a while longer but as the die hard purist say thats not really Linux.

Wrong impression of Linux

[chrono13]

I sent several of the latest live CDs to a friend so he could test drive Linux. All of them gave him kernel panic errors. After an updated Bios, stil the errors. Many cheat codes later, we were no closer.

He then installed Mandriva LE DVD just fine, and has been running Linux for weeks now on his old laptop.

My point is that Live CDs can often give Grandma the wrong impression, including that Linux is buggy and slow among other things.

Sometimes buggy, time consuming and unessarily difficult, yes. Slow? No.

Re:Wrong impression of Linux

[nycbicyclist]

I agree. I tried Knoppix and a couple of other live CD's when I first got my laptop. The computer usually seized up while booting. If I started with just the right command-line options, I could get it to boot into X, but then I couldn't get any programs other than konqueror and x-term to work. I gave up a couple of times. Luckily, I am obstinate and like to tinker and eventually installed Gentoo.

LiveCD as Rescue Disks

[xafan]

I use LiveCDs quite a bit but almost strictly for repair or support of an existing system. I will often find myself needing to boot up a LiveCD in order to bring peace back to the troubled partition.

On another note I specifically find the lightweight LiveCD Slax to be one of the best. A really nice feature it has is if you have at least 256MB of RAM you're able to load the entire CD into the RAM Disk and effectively run it without a CD.

Re:LiveCD as Rescue Disks

[ClaraBow]

What LiveCD has the best set of tools to repair Windows installions and harddrive problems?

Re:LiveCD as Rescue Disks

[mightymik2]

Yep. I was on a trip recently, and a friend of mine was having problems. Her 'computer guy' couldn't even get it to boot. I used an Ubuntu Hoary LiveCD to boot to a desktop. (hmm...mobo and CPU/memory are good...) I even showed her how to boot it. Verdict: Bad HD. Her 'computer guy' needs some better tools.

Re:LiveCD as Rescue Disks

[rikkards]

Easy. BartPE
www.nu2.nu
Course this is assuming you have a copy of either XP SP2 or Windows 2003 to make it

Who is this aimed at?

[Osrin]

I can't think that Joe and Pam User would want to experiment with an OS on their PC at home.

The apple model seems to make a lot more sense, allowing Joe and Pam to play with the Mac in a store, where they can test out their apps, see the mac working with their printer - and all of the other day to day activities that they do at home.

Test driving an OS with Open Office and browser is a good start... but it does not come close to helping Joe and Pam understand exactly what the OS will do for them in their everyday lives.

We need Linux Test Drive centers, complete with in room experts who can help users understand how the OS works and how to get the best of it.

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, great idea. Get people to buy discontinued hardware from Apple instead of running Linux on their existing computers at home!

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[Efialtis]

I have to disagree...
With a live CD they are assured that they don't have to DO anything to their current OS, and if they don't like Linux, they can simply remove the CD...
Further, when Joe and Pam realize that Linux can do everything that Windows can do (and more) and the price is what, $0.00, I can almost guarentee that they will stick with it.
I think this kind of approach (book and cd) is the perfect way to introduce people to Linux...now if we could only figure out how to distribute the book and everything for free...

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[Osrin]

Do people really want to be "introduced to Linux", or do they want to be introduced to a better way of acomplishing the tasks that they have at hand?

when you want a market beyond the techies to start to adopt something like an OS you have to stop thinking like a techie imo.

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[yagu]

I can't think that Joe and Pam User would want to experiment with an OS on their PC at home.

Aside: while it is admirable you go for being sensitive and politically correct here to include women (and at the risk of my karma for saying so), just saying Joe is sufficient (Just look at the first returned result).

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

We need Linux Test Drive centers, complete with in room experts who can help users understand how the OS works and how to get the best of it.

You mean like a Linux InstallFest? You are right. Very successful!

We (Phoenix Linux User Group, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/ do one once a month.

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[westlake]

when Joe and Pam realize that Linux can do everything that Windows can do (and more) and the price is what, $0.00, I can almost guarentee that they will stick with it.

Joe and Pam will probably not come across a live CD before they have had a ten year investment in Windows.
They subscribe to Rhapsody or Y! Unlimited. They do their banking through Quicken. For the true retro-gaming experience they fire up the MSDOS system they played with as kids.

They are not candidates for migration.

Re:Who is this aimed at?

[novakyu]

For the true retro-gaming experience they fire up the MSDOS system they played with as kids.

FYI, DOSBox gets rid of that problem, not to mention linux ports of SNES emulators. It's the wind0z games that's most troublesome for being M$-free.

BTW, how exactly do they "fire up" MSDOS? If they are running Wind0z X-P like all Joe Sixpacks, then their cmd.exe is utterly incompatible with MSDOS's command.com. Many games rely on DOS-only mode that is not achievable since Wind0z2000 (or was it since Wind0zME?). So, in order to "fire up" MSDOS... they will probably need to dual boot into true MSDOS (like 6.22) on a FAT16 partition---which, BTW, no Joe Sixpack can do.

What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Locke2005]

1) Create 2 partitions
2) Install Windows in first partition
3) Install Lilo
4) Install Linux in second partition
Other than the caveat that Windows MUST be installed first (otherwise it will clobber the Linux boot sector), I don't see why this should cause a problem. Perhaps your problem is with dynamicly resizing an existing parition?

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Osty]

Other than the caveat that Windows MUST be installed first (otherwise it will clobber the Linux boot sector), I don't see why this should cause a problem. Perhaps your problem is with dynamicly resizing an existing parition?

I haven't installed a dual-boot machine in years, but I don't recall that ever being the case if you were smart about how you were installing. Instead of telling LILO to install on the MBR, tell it to install to the boot sector of your boot partition (ie, instead of boot=/dev/hda, use boot=/dev/hda1 or boot=/dev/hda2 or wherever you installed /, or preferably /boot). Then fire up fdisk, mark the partition with lilo as the active parition, and you're done. Windows only clobbers the MBR. It can't clobber the boot sector of other partitions. It also doesn't reset the active partition. By installing LILO in this way, I was able to reinstall Windows as many times as I liked without affecting my Linux install. In fact, just for grins I once had two copies of linux, two copies of NT 4, one copy of Win2k, and one copy of Be OS all installed on the same machine and all managed by LILO. After getting linux installed, installation order was unimportant other than making sure I knew what partition I was going to use and set up lilo to be able to boot the new OS.

Of course, since then I've decided to separate my Linux and Windows installations onto diferent boxes, and since doing that I haven't needed to reinstall in a very long while (last time I reinstalled XP was due to a motherboard upgrade ~2 years ago; last Linux reinstall was even longer ago than that and was only required thanks to a failing hard drive).

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Xyrus]

And to give a brief synopsis of average Joe Sixpack user:
Dual boot? Partitions? WTF? Hey I know Lilo, he's the cute blue alien that breaks stuff in the cartoons. Oh you lost me again talking about that partition thing again....

~X~

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[chris_eineke]

Here is an interesting situation for you:

Linux on the first partition, Windows on the second. I somehow managed to get it to work, but...

every time I boot into Windows 2000, Win2k changes the active partition to the Windows one. So next reboot it automatically boots Windows instead of giving me the grub bootloader. I need to pop in a Knoppix CD and change the active partition back to the Linux one.

Talk about weird behaviour. O_o

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Actually Lilo was the little girl, and Stitch was the alien.

Yeah, I'm a dad.

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[manly_15]

In my experience (ISP Tech Support), it's even worse then that:

"What version of Windows are you running?" (since no users have any idea what an operating system is): "I don't know, the newest one?", or "Outlook Express", or "Office 97".

"Well, you know when you turn on your computer? There is a big blue or black screen which says what version of Windows you have. What does that say?": "Oh, I never pay any attention to that."

So if users don't even see the BIG FLAMING WINDOWS VERSION NUMBER during boot up, the odds of them picking up a book like this and getting it /off the shelf/ is near zero.

Too bad. I /do/ know that lots of users would like to save $50 off of the purchase of a new computer, esp. with Thunderbird and FF being cross platform so the setup is virtually the same. But consumers will never demand anything better because all they know is that their big black box plugs into their small TV and shows them pretty pictures from the internet.

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[wa1ter]

So if users don't even see the BIG FLAMING WINDOWS VERSION NUMBER during boot up, the odds of them picking up a book like this and getting it /off the shelf/ is near zero

There's absolutely no need for windows users to even look at their screen during boot up as it doesn't tell them anything interesting.
I know that whenever i turn on a windows PC I just hit the power button and go get some coffee.
It's similar for my DVD player, I know it displays some gold coloured letters when I turn it on but as there's nothing interesting there I don't look at what it says.

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Hosiah]

While we're guruing:

The Windows/Linux-on-two-partitions trick also works for dual hard-drives. Take an existing Windows machine, add a hard-drive, install Linux to it, and make a boot floppy (so there's no Lilo configuration issues - sometimes Lilo can be difficult, and I wanted something easy enough for my 8-year-old to handle).

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Hosiah]

Yep, and Joe Sixpack can go run Windoze! (-:

Perhaps that's where we geeks went wrong. It was a mistake to ever "dumb down" machines to the point where Joe Sixpack would come to expect the point-n-drool interface as a God-given-right. I notice before mice and icons existed, you were actually expected to have almost a whole thought in your head when you sat down at the computer, and nobody thought this was in any way unusal! Even Joe Sixpack could key his way through Xtree-Pro and write simple BASIC programs back then!

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Richard Dick Head]

Well, since the average IQ is 100, that means half the population has an IQ less than or equal to 100. The average college student has 110. So, equating that to the grade scales with standard deviations of 10 and the average being a C (110 IQ), 100 IQ would be a D student, and < 90 IQ would be a straight F student. Using Chris Farley as a model of a typical D student (I think the movie was Tommy Boy? Its been awhile), you can see that there are a lot of ludicrously stupid people out there.

Well, of course that model breaks down in the real world, because grades also come from a host of other factors than IQ, such as available time, motivation, drug use (pot, Viagra, World of Warcrack, poker, ect), parental subsidy, resistance to disease, nutrition, sex drive, sleep cycle regularity, and more. BUT, assuming all these things being the same, thats what you would have.

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[runderwo]

Well, since the average IQ is 100, that means half the population has an IQ less than or equal to 100.

I think you're confused on the definition of 'average' versus 'median'.

Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk?

[Richard Dick Head]

Different methods, same madness.

Live CD's : bad for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, a Live CD makes it easy to try Linux. Unfortuantely it also makes it real easy to STOP using Linux. In the old days when the Windows partition would get trashed, there was some barrier to keep noobs from switching right back to Windows. Now, they try Linux for 5 minutes, can't find anything or figure out how to do anything and decide the hype is all that - just hype - and they throw the CD away and go back to their normal productive lives.

Re:Live CD's : bad for Linux

[baadger]

..and good luck to them. Alot of Linux, especially in the Slashdot crowd, is indeed hype.

You're totally right.

I've tried a few Live CD's. Some haven't booted. My favourite has been Damn Small Linux which is 50mb (fits on a 7cm mini CD), can boot into RAM on a machine starting at 128mb and comes with Firefox (or Opera as a myDSL extension) and a variety of everyday stuff. I like it's minimalistic nature. I would keep a copy with me out and about but those guys bring out versions so quickly I gave up toasting off copies.

I will never be moving to Linux though, even though my next OEM PC will no doubt be bought without an OS (at a little reduced cost). I am just comfortable with Windows and there is no motivation for me to change and better yet reasons to change don't necessarily translate to motivation to change.

Dark boobs???

[Peeps In Da House]

...in addition to the aforesaid problem of adjacent grayscale regions merging into dark blobs that are difficult to distinguish from one another. Uh... I guess this guy had mammaries on the mind when he wrote this review. Personally, I've never had a problem distinguishing adjacent dark boobs from one another. To each his own!

Another way to test drive

[Rudolf]

HP has a set-up where you can "test drive" different OSes and hardware.

http://www.testdrive.hp.com/

Included are Linux, BSD, VMS, and HP-UX, Itanium, PA-RISC, Alpha, and x86.

Re:Another way to test drive

[bill_mcgonigle]

I tried this - the machines are crawling with RC5 crackers and you can't test any application that needs to use the network.

Too bad, I was going to pilot a web app on one for a customer, and they would have bought the HP if it worked out appropriately.

But...

[Mechcozmo]

I've played with a LiveCD before too, and thought it was great. But when I wanted to install to an empty FAT32 partition, I had major issues with every single distro. Some were confusing to install, some KPed on boot, some just didn't start, etc. The LiveCDs were neat, but I couldn't do anything useful with them simply because they were CDs. I'd love to get Linux going but it just isn't as user-friendly as Windows is or OS X is.
Well, at least the Windows installation procedure. That is usually pretty easy to get started. But beyond that, ~shudder~

Re:But...

[Mad Merlin]

You might want to consider that you can't use a FAT(32) partition for a root filesystem under Linux, it doesn't support file permissions. You can mount FAT(32) partitions no problem for sharing data or whatever, but don't try and use one for the root partition, if the installer even lets you, I suspect you'll get many strange errors. Bottom line being to use something like ext3 for /, then mount your FAT32 partition under /mnt/share or something similar.

Re:But...

[Mechcozmo]

And the installer didn't let me know this, nor did any 'manuals' I read (trust me I read a LOT about 'em). I knew about ext3, but since everything I read said "FAT32 worked fine" I assumed it would. The installer didn't give a shit.

This proves my point: Linux is great, but isn't ready for normal usage. I don't have time to figure out how to make an ext3 partition now (rather, re-format one) since finals are this week and next and my time can't be wasted.

Thanks for the info... I guess I'll try it later... anyone want to make another distro, but user-friendly? And not Lindows...

Re:But...

[westyvw]

Then you have never tried Ubunto or Mepis, (particularly Mepis). So very easy.

I have Linux and windows on this computer. The windows install and configuration is BY FAR more work then Linux. I have been putting of finishing the Windows install for a month now because I dread it so much. Its just what you are used to.

Linux, put in live cd (in this case the simplest of them all mepis) and the system boots into the OS. Click the install me button. Check to use unused space for linux in my case (or use the graphical partitioner). Answer about 4 questions.
Reboot, OS installed, Nvidia running 3d, network card enabled, eveything found. None of this winodws nonsense of finding and download ing drivers, updating and rebooting OVER AND OVER again, installing all the thirdf party software just to mnake windows "safe".

Re:But...

[m50d]

Hmm. Have you tried a recent Mandrake/Mandriva install disk? They partition fairly sensibly if you say "do it automatically", and would probably be smart enough to detect and erase an empty partition and set up a linux partition layout there.

Re:But...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've played with a Live CD before too, and didn't think very much of it at all. I thought maybe I'd install it on an empty ReiserFS partition as I had such major issues with both BartPE and Ultimate Boot CD. Sometime they just didn't start, and even when they did the programs didn't run. I just couldn't do anything with them because they were just CDs. I'd like to get Windows going, but it simply isn't as user-friendly as Linux. As for the Windows installation procedure, all it could say was that my perfectly healthy disk was "damaged or unformatted" ~shudder~

Re:But...

[Mechcozmo]

But my motherboard with on-board GigE NIC wasn't supported unless I typed in some commands to the shell, the hard drive didn't show up on one install CD because it couldn't read the ATA card, etc. So many issues... it may work FOR YOU but my SCSI card and SCSI CD-RW drive didn't work on ANY distro...

I don't have much love for Windows, but at least I know when I stick in that CD and press that lost any key to start up from the CD it will start up and enter Windows setup. As opposed to Linux, where it may or may not start up, etc.

Save Some Money!

[Anonymous Coward]

Save more than $3 via Amazon: Test Driving Linux

Re:Cringley thinks Apple and Intel are merging

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it only runs intel osx

AMEN!!

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds like this guy is a clueless

Live CDs?

[XpirateX]

What's this about live Linux CDs? I've never heard of something like that. That sounds amazing!

- Me, 1999

More FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

GG Bashdot

Windows is not buggy, and nor is it insecure if you actually know how to use it.

AMEN!

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds like this guy is clueless, I mean its not hard at all to set up a duel boot system. Also since when were Live CDs new? My gosh first came the story about LFS linux (old news!) and now this. I'm starting to think /. is beginning to go to the n00Bs

Live CD's are a Godsend

[LM741N]

I use Gentoo Linux. Recently I crashed my system, the result of being on the bleeding edge of technology. The Live CD is my only hope of rescuing the system, so that I don't have to start from scratch and re-format the Linux partitions. Then I would loose everything and it would take another mounth to build the mountain from the molehill.

May Long-Live-Live-CD's!!! Rob

Debian.MSI

[_iris]

I'm still waiting for someone to package PC virtualization software preconfigured to boot a linux distro. Then there is _really_ no way your PC can be harmed.

Drew Vogel

Re:Debian.MSI

[Imagix]

You may wish to look at VMware ACE (commercial), or CoLinux.....

I am afraid I am too ingrained in DOS/Windows

[jaypaulw]

I got a PCjr when I was 8 years old and I've been on the DOS/Windows platform since. I installed redhat and suse a couple of times a couple of summers ago and I have to say that it performed slowly versus the win 98 se I was running on old 450-800 mhz boxes. Maybe I didn't have enough ram I don't know. What was very difficult was adding software that wasn't part of the original distribution. I guess that's the idea is that the distribution should have everything you need in it? I don't know I may be an idiot. I am still very intrigued by linux, but I figure that if I can get over my head (e.g. I have no idea how to compile something) it may not work for a lot of the so called power windows users (and I know more about computing than you'd think) Maybe for people more experienced or less experienced than I - linux is great. Another thing is that the UI seems very derivitave of Windows and inconsistent. I'd like to see someone really create something special that really draws people in. Anyway...

Re:I am afraid I am too ingrained in DOS/Windows

[jaypaulw]

woops choose HTML formatted instead of plain.

lost some credibility there.

it's only my 4th post on /. though

Re:I am afraid I am too ingrained in DOS/Windows

[jaypaulw]

I tried Ubuntu Live on a more up-to-date machine today and it performed well, couldn't get my wifi card working. I'd love it if there were fewer distros and more centers of ready-to-go packages.

More books needed?

[apa666]

I think not. If Linux itself was simpler, more straightforward and demystified, now that would be something.
At present Linux' only major advantage over Windows on the desktop for Joe User is the price. And everyone has already paid for Windows.

I think you're giving Windows too much credit

[jesterzog]

software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart.

I don't mean any disrespect, but I think you're giving too much credit to Windows software with this comment. Being graphical and sometimes consistent does not by itself make something "easy and intuitive to use", even though a lot of people seem to equate those qualities with being visually appealing. I'm not trying to imply that any unix-derived software does any better, but I don't think it's correct to start applying labels such as "easy" and "intuitive" until somebody who's never previously seen or used the software can sit down and accomplish exactly what they want, and quickly.

I know lots of people who are very proficient at using certain Windows software. It's because they use it for tasks that they do frequently. They know the software and they've come to understand it through years of practice. At some point, though, they still had to take the leap to comprehend the idea of a "task" fitting inside a generic electronic box that supposedly does everything.

Many of the same people become incredibly frustrated as soon as they try to use software with which they're not familiar. It doesn't work in ways they expect, and often it'll use concepts that they've never been acquainted with. The fact that it's Windows, graphical, or even roughly consistent with other applications, makes no difference for it being easy and intuitive, at least beyond being able to tell the difference between a button and a menu option, for instance.

As it is, I don't personally think that most traditional software has a hope of ever really being intuitive and easy in this way. The concept of taking a generic box and having it do a million different things is just to complex. The only time that software, and computers in general, will be truly intuitive and easy to understand is when people no longer think of it as software, or computers for that matter.

A basic wrist-watch (without lots of other modes) is a really good example. Using it to find the time is an operation that most people will figure out simply by looking at it and noticing the time. It's not necessary to understand anything about computers, or how to put the watch into 'time-display' mode, to understand how to get the time from it. For most other tasks, we've still a very long way to go before software becomes "intuitive and easy". I doubt word processors will reach that point, for instance, until they're as obvious to use as something like a pen and paper. All that software really does at the moment is to make a lot of things possible that weren't possible before.

I use linux, and I prefer it over Windows at the moment. Part of this decision is because I've invested time in learning about it, and I'm happy with the relatively expert user interface that it offers for me to get what I want done more efficiently. My preferred WM is WindowMaker, because I like its light-weight feel compared with KDE or Gnome (plus it's supported by Debian). In an ideal design, though, there shouldn't be any serious difference between an expert and beginner interface, because everyone should simply be able to do exactly what they want to do efficiently and quickly.

Re:I think you're giving Windows too much credit

[propertyistheft]

Right. What passes for intuitive is only familiarity. But then again, familiarity scores high when you've got a deadline to meet and Open Office has just chewed up that important MS file that someone sent you.

It worked for me...but...

[sweetnjguy29]

I started off on my Linux adventure with a Live Linux CD...knoppix, i believe.

The only problem is that some live cds do not work on all computers. I tried running knoppix on my old 300Mhz PII Gateway...no luck...not enough memory. Plus, you can't save files with a lot of distros. Sometimes the internet doesn't even work.

Live CDs are a nice toy though, it demonstrates the power of the computer....its a gateway to the world of linux.

Live Distros are not a panacea. They aren't for grandma. But they are a great hobby toy for a computer enthusiast.

coLinux

[Jaime2]

If you're willing to put a few hours into an install and config that will work reallllllly well, look into coLinux. http://www.colinux.org/

You won't have to dual boot, just run Linux at the same time as Windows. It performs better than virtualization. The only hurdle is getting a desktop, coLinux doesn't have video drivers for X. However, you can just use cygwin and run the desktop as a Windows app. For me, doing app development on Linux and Windows simultaneously, it's the best solution I've found so far. I can get a KDE desktop in 22 seconds (I just timed it) on an old P3 850Mhz laptop with 256MB of ram. All without interrupting my work in Windows.

Yeah Linux Live CDs

[Orion Blastar]

Great ideas, they autoconfigure the hardware before loading. That way the Windows user can see that their Wireless adapter or WinModem won't work on Linux before installing it to their hard drive.

Oh maybe they can figure out how to download the source code to NDISWrapper and then copy the driver files from their Windows partition to the Linux RAM disk, and then Compile NDISWrapper after downloading the Linux Kernel and configuring it to get all the headers NDISWrapper needs to compile. Then install the Wireless programs, if the LiveCD didn't already have them. Maybe then they can enter their WEP/WPA Key and then get wireless working. If not, they can always buy a new Wireless adapter that has Linux support.

WinModem, chances are they can surf to find a Linux version of their Winmodem under Windows. If they are lucky there will be a free version and all they need do is compile it into the Linux Kernel. If not, there is a trial version that runs at 14.4K BPS until they can register it for $30 or more. If none of these exist, they are better off buying an external modem that has Linux support.

Yeah these things made running a LiveCD of Linux almost as easy as running Windows itself.

Re:Yeah Linux Live CDs

[xsspd2004]

Don't be a dick. The only reason I started using Linux was because I found live CDs that work properly with my hardware. Ubuntu, Knoppix, and PCLinuxOS are all I use now. (Hint: all have live CDs.)

Re:Yeah Linux Live CDs

[Al Dimond]

That's kinda interesting... several years ago my brother and I started rebuilding computers from old parts people gave away. We had several winmodems. Could almost never get them to work in Windows, since we didn't have the original driver disk, and the drivers were difficult to locate online. At one point we tried to contact some kind of support line for one of the companies and they said that they had a driver for the modem, but couldn't send us them because it was against company policy (better not let those winmodem drivers fall into the hands of non-winmodem owners!) . I think we just ended up finding regular modems. So, certainly, the horrors of winmodems are not just for Linux users. I wonder if any of those winmodems are supported by open source Linux drivers. However, having trashed all of them and dial-up Internet service years ago, I have no way to find out.

Windows and Linux.. KVM switch..

[the_rajah]

My solution is called KVM.. I don't have any trouble finding older computers very inexpensively that run Linux just fine. I'm running SuSE 9.2 on a PIII-550 with 256 Megs of Ram and it works great. When I want to use the XP box to run Quickbooks, I just tap-tap on the num-lock and there's my XP window.

Actually, I go a bit further than that as I've got a 4 port KVM switch so I also have a similar box with Ubuntu 5.04 and a Celeron 900 with Xandros. All of these computers were given to me after a customer upgraded their office. So there's never a hassle when I want to change what distro I'm playing with.

I've dual booted boxes in the past and the only problems I've had with dual booting was with an XP install that got broken and the reinstall messed up the booting. No biggie.

Try Mepis

[KwKSilver]

The Live CD is also an install CD. It includes QT Part-ed, which works as well for me as Partition Magic. The installer script has an option to resize with QT Part-ed as well.

You don't even need to reboot

[Quiberon]

With one of these http://search.bittorrent.com/search.jsp?query=qemu &Submit2=Search you don't even need to reboot. There's a pile of CDs and DVDs that run Linux under Windows.

Toys, of course, but a good way to learn.

Or you could google for 'winknoppix' . Plenty served !

I Disagree with your sig.

[HerbieStone]

I Disagree with your sig. The desecration is for real.

Read more about it here: Desecration of the Qur'an at Guantánamo Bay

How about Triple Booting?

[felixdzerzhinsky]

First I think the book will be a great way to introduce Linux to new people.

I am by no means a computer expert. More of a user really. I now have on my Laptop Ubuntu (as my main working system, Windows XP for doing lab experiments from the SANS Security Essentials Toolkit book, and Fedora Linux also for experiments and so I learn how to use rpm's as well as Debs.

Basically I used a Knoppix cd and QTParted to create an NTFS partition (/dev/hda1), two EXT3 (/dev/hda5, /dev/hda6) partitions and a Swap partition /dev/hda7). I then install WinXP first. Then Ubuntu. When it asks where to put grub in my case I put it on /dev/hda6. Then I install Fedora. In my case during the Fedora install I format the /dev/hda5 and make it the / root partition. When it comes to the part about the Boot manager you need to Add /hda/6 and name it Ubuntu. I chose to make Ubuntu my default.

Then You need to follow the steps in the www.ubuntuguide.org to get your multimedia working. About a half hour of cutting and pasting. For Fedora this may help: http://fedoraguide.org/fc2/fc2beginnersguide.html

There may be an easier way but it works for me.

Re-arrange these words to form a familiar phrase..

[Anonymous Coward]

Re-arrange these words to form a familiar phrase... to a Glaswegian anyway....

PISH UTTER!

Take SuSE 9.2 for example, pop the disk in the drive, click go, enjoy Linux! - Resizes partitions, provides plenty of software, easy to use, pleasent to look at...

So the original article is in my eyes, utter pish!

not a bad idea

[Stepping Razor]

i've given live cds to friends before and been available to give advice, but for people who do not know any linux users this could be very useful.

coLinux

[PhotoGuy]

While I heartily support livecd's for both introducing new users, and for diagnostic/rescue missions, I think coming up with a slick Knoppix-like distribution which uses coLinux, would go a long way.

I've started using coLinux for my development environment, running a full Fedora install under Windows, surprisingly efficiently (blows the doors off of VMWare). A CD that you could stick in, run a program which starts coLinux and a Knoppix distribution, would really let people get the flavour of Linux, without even rebooting.

Why bother?

[FridayBob]

A while back, I gave away a bunch of Knoppix CDs to my buddies at the local sports club. At first, they all wanted one, but later it turned out that none of them had taken the trouble to start one up. Apparently, the idea of actually running Linux on their PC just doesn't inspire the imagination. Apparently, the problem for them seems to consist of three things, not necessarily in the following order:

1.) Linux is usually not a platform on which they can play their favorite games.

2.) It's easy for them to get pirated versions of M$' OS and applications anyway.

3.) Complacency. Why bother?

It looks to me as though it may be many years before this situation changes. Something has to make Linux look like more of an attractive alternative to the average Windows user. Actually, I'm hoping that M$ itself will lend a hand here. When LongTime is finally released, perhaps it'll prove to be such a tough nut that it'll be impossible for anyone to install commercial applications on it illegally. Then everyone will be forced to pay M$' extortionist prices, which they'll hate.

But, as I was saying, this will take years. We're first going to have to arrive at a point at which the software for Windows XP is seen as outdated, the software for LongTime is seen as too expensive, and the software for Linux is seen as just (or almost) as good. Oh, and it'll also help if, by that time, more games are available for Linux.

Kanotix

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is mostly about partitioning, and Kanotix does have Qtparted, but it really trumps most other Live-Cds too. The latest version has 2.6.11 kernel, tons of newer apps, and the best hardware detection & support. You can easily install to hd and I'm almost positive it "supports" NTFS.

I installed XP on fat32 and dual boot between that and Kanotix 64. Works like a charm.

shoot, i might write a book now...

Problem is with the CD-ROM speeds...

[Calyth]

live-cds are great and all, and I use the for diagnostics, and even wiping Windows drives (particularly I don't trust DOS's drive naming conventions), but to actually try out Linux through live-cds doesn't really do it justice.
Even spinning as fast as it can, live-cds are nowhere near as fast as a HD. Even on a P4 laptop with 512MB of ram, the CDROM really delays things.
Perhaps someone could write a program that would fit on a floppy so that the user would simply download the iso, and boot a kernel inside it so that Windows doesn't get destroyed, yet the CDROM speeds won't ruine the whole experience.
Incidentally, Puppy Linux trys to make it as fast as it can by putting about 50MB+ worth of stuff in RAM.

Move is a known distro...

[VolciMaster]

I've used (formerly Mandrake) Move, Knoppix, SLAX, and Mepis. Most people I know who have heard of the live CDs have heard of all of those, and a bunch more.

Re:AANG

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, a GNAA post thats actually funny. And the new goat.cx is a picture of a carved pumpkin in the usual fashion.

If any of youse goes to Aquinas College, kick this guy's lanky geek ass for me :P

I did this

[Ill_At_Ease]

I went from MS to Xandros after testing a few distros that wouldn't work with my Dell. Xandros is OK, but I recently moved to Mandrake (Mandriva). I love Linux now and am trying to get the gf to use it. I currently have a dual boot.

There's just one problem...

[jounihat]

Step 1: Install Windows.
Step 2: Get yourself a Linux installation cd.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: A dual boot system ready to go!

Try 3 seconds

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows restarts in just 3 seconds for me. Oh wait, that's because I use Windows for Workgroups 3.11....

Re:Uhhh

[MyLongNickName]

If you're on Slashdot, you should know what a Live-CD is...good god....

In that case, I'd suggest Slashdot only carry stories on women, soap (not SOAP) and sun tanning techniques.

Ditto

[CRBML]

I would have to agree with Blanks on this one! http://www.redfishonfly.com/

Linux at Walmart

[timothy]

They might again (hey, hope springs eternal), but No, Walmart is not selling boxed Linux of any sort in their stores right now. (Corrections welcome!)

For a time, though, they were selling Mandrake (old Slashdot stories address this, I'm sure -- search for "Walmart"); I think it was between versions 6 and 8, or 7 and 8 -- I bought two of the boxes at different points just to register a blip on their radar (also, because I needed a distro, and that was easier than downloading over dialup). I have good memories of Mandrake; it did *not* install smoothly on every machine on which I tried it, but it had a pretty good track record with me, and a sensible, nicely graphical installer.

They often do carry software, just not very much of it -- it's a big Everything store, so they do have to choose their product line with different criteria than I'd have for it, especially when it comes to software. Of course, for those willing to install it, the average Linux distro either replaces or circumvents much of the other software they'd rather you buy separately. (Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, low-end graphics / word processing, etc.)

timothy