I never asked my color blind roommate to make sure the cloths I picked look all right. On the other hand, he always insited on doing the driving when we needed to go somewhere at night.
Distributed computing is the warp. Grid computing is distributed computing that also has a weft. Can't explain it any simpler then that.
I had an usage example but it is related to a project that I am currently involved in that I realy can't discouse.
Yay, I thought about that after posting. IBM is still precieved by most as a US firm even though in reality it is not. I would imagine that the Munich officials concider IBM an international entity.
I guess I should not assume that/. readership is familliar with American English coloquialisms. The word "shit" is used to denote a miscelaneous collection in a very informal maner, as in "You're shit is in the way." In the sentence that I used it in, I was refering to the collection of MS apps commonly used by buisness.
IBM is a US company, last time I checked. Maybe they moved? Its worth noting that SuSE does market the most viable Linux based OS for the European market, and that their supported hardware list is quite impressive. I usualy recommend SuSE to my non-geek friends as a good turn-key OS.
Your first point is invalid. Microsoft has not resorted to discounts in most of its history. Instead it uses backroom ear bending and schmoozing to spread lies and inuendo. It also relys on its well oiled FUD machine with its rouster of bought tech reporters and paid for studies and reviews. Kick backs of Microsoft Shares are also usefull in persuading reluctant Board Members. This last is most usefull for getting companies to replace Unix servers. The well discused lock in factor, with its twin the BSA extorsion machine ( remember almost all buisnesses have some desktops running MS shit out of nessecity, wich gives the BSA threatning leverage). Microsoft is truely threatened by Linux. The problem for them, is to maintain the FUD in the face of a large number of non-geeks using Linux, and thus able to see for themselves the truth. The last thing MS wants to see is large numbers of people learning that Linux is not this big scary diffucult to use geek monstosity.
The techy peoples use of Linux does not bother MS too much. They have convinced large numbers of CEO, VPs, and BODs that they can not trust their IT depts. The have successfully stigmatised anyone knowlegable in Unix/Linux as being arrogant snobs fearfull of their place in the geek hierarchy. And allude to Unix profesional as jelouse of the power they hold through their understanding of an obtuse OS. About the nicest thing that the MS Marmen say about Unix experts is that they are all unfortunatly addicted of the CLI, and hold to it like a security blanket out of fear of GUIs which they are unuse to and ignorant of. MS will help them recover from their unfortunate condition. The worst things MS Marsmen say would burn any Linux users ears off. BTW, I have heard this stuff with my own ears.
In sumary, MS buisness objectives require that they have a virtual monopoly on the desktop. They will almost anything to maintain that monopoly.
Well, I sure hope you end up unemployed while trying to support a teenager. It would be best if this happened after 2 years of a pay reduction nessecitating the tapping of all accumulated resources, leaving you stranded in the most expensive place to live. Then I can tell you to go flip burgers for a living and stop being a whining loser.
Another point, with everyone employed in low paying service jobs ( which are going to be the only ones left accessible to those not born with a silver spoon), who in the hell is going to be buying the hightech gadgets these outsourcing corprate asses are dreaming of producing?
I am furious that you think I should be happy selling shoes, when I have 20 years of programming experience. I have that experience because programming is WHAT I DO. IT IS WHO I AM. AND YES I am yelling. And I am also furious that you are so stupid as to believe that this outsourcing phenomina is driven by profitability. Most (not all) companies duing this are motivated by Wallstreet perception. They usualy are incredibly mismanaged ( following that "Growth Company" craze that got us into this shit) and use the cost of reorginization and creative bookkeeping to cover the fact that they are missmanaged. Shifting critical functions offshore should be precieved as a sign that the company is in trouble. In other words, what is happening is not happening because of economic reality, but Wallstreet fantasy. And you have the gaul to tell me I should be happy that I have lost my profesion becaus of the delusion of some corporate moron.
The worst thing about this is that frustrated profesionals with more liberal leanings then me, will clamour for the Government to do something. Then some Democrate will propose some legislation that will get passed, making matters even worse. Anything the US government does will be bad. Especialy for the companies that have not been shifing overseas. It will increase the cost of living farther exasperating the problem. The only solution ( other the the federal government figuring out a way to drive down the cost of living, which is not going to happen with Democrates in office) is a major change in the attitude of investors.
Hmm, I find Moz painfully slow ( e.g. almost a minute to save anything during which time all of Moz is locked up), but I thought it was due to the ancient 200Mhz PPro hardware I'm using. I just assumed that it would run alright on a snappier machine. I guess I should have not been so optimistic for an app that has a 400+MB footprint. BYW, does anyone know if some of this is due to its use of GTK?
Either VMS on an Alpha or any IBM AIX system (not Alpha, get your info straight) will outperform any x86 box running any OS. This is especialy true of the example you gave. Face it, the x86 is a shitty architecture, no matter how many GHz you run it at.
and yet I find myself not being too concerned due to the overwhelming costs and grief that Peoplesoft software has put certain organizations I know of through. Yes, I realize it is complex software, but I felt as if we were actually beta testing Peoplesoft code for them when we implemented it Don't know much about Oracle do ya. Every Oracle ERP endevour has been a disaster.
How about CO2 cylinders that have the valve knocked off. Those puppies fly and they have no moving parts, well maybe the CO2 could be concidered a moving part. Anyways this story gave me quite a lift. I've been kinda stressed preparing for a trip to an interview. I'll be in the air in a about three hours. Time to jet. Now if I could only safely strap 60,000 volts to my butt and hover to where I need to go. Whould'nt have had to spend my last $100 on a plane ticket.
I am not ignoring your post at all. I am just pretty buisy right now. I babysit a hyperactive 10 year old boy from about 5 untill 8 or 9. I also have dinner to cook for my son and myself. And I am suppose to be spending my time job hunting. In fact I am preparing for a flight to an interview Wendsday. Way cool!
I do plan on making a proper responce to your post as I mentioned this morning. The stuff I posted after was just some quick filler, covering a few points I thought important. I in no way ment to discount or ignor the rest of what you were saying. I also need to go over what old Dr. Peeles been up to lately. I have not been to his site in a while. Hey a little heresy is good now and then:) I should not have been suprised that you brought him up. I would like to show were I feel his conclusion are wrong and why, but first I need to see if he has changed any of them. A lot has happened in the last few years. Please be patient. The chance of me posting a proper responce untill tomarow is slim. I am also coming down with a stupid cold. Bad news two days befor a job interview.
I have not had time to go over my own posts to see where I might have implied inconsisted opinions. But if I did, one possible cause could be the 10 year old. I had him all day yesterday, untill almost 10PM. He pretty much interups me with something every few minutes. Even when I tell him im buisy. He cant play his gameboy without me being involved. On top of this I am ADD as I mentioned earlier. It takes me awhile to refocus. This results in posts taking way to long to write, disjointed logic, and if I am not carfull, terribly mangeled sentences.
Ah, I final figured out where you got the idea that I am pro AA. Its that stupid anti-anti-AA/HigherPower comment. I have been following this anti-AA thing for about 7 years now. It originaly started as an anti-higher power thing. The whole movement kind of irked me becuse it tends to through out the baby with the bath water. I have a long list of the problems with AA. I actualy think NA is a better program despite the people being more "messed" up ( I think I used that other term in an earlier description, oops). NA has some of the same problems and brings with it some of its own, despite this both programms are of some value to some people, and both programms do have some valid points. I feel that many people substitute these programs for their addiction so in affect become addicted to them and never transition to a more normal life. When I first got into sobriaty, I discovered that the old lady who lived across the alley from me was a recovered Alcoholic. I had known her for years. When I started getting sober she noticed it, and asked me what I was doing. I told her about AA and my experiences. She had 40 years of sobriety, and had decades of involvment with AA. The program we have today is quite different then in the past. A major change was that courts started to order people to attend AA/NA meetings. This resulted in a large portion of attendees, who realy did not want to be there, or were not ready to be there. Boy, Sherrly was a wealth of information. She realy helped me a lot. It is partly because of her, that I placed the program at a much less prominent location in my second plan to recovery.
I have not change my view point, I have just calmed down, and am expressing myself better. I tend to be a bit excitable at times.
Structure is one of things I ususaly try to maintain. I fact, I had extencive plans to maintain structure once I learned I was to be layed off.
There seems to be a major disconnect in what I am trying to say, and how you are interpreting it. First I never claimed that AA or treatment was the only way to sobriaty. As this is demonstrably untrue. I myself was in treatment and did the AA thing. AA was a failure for me. The treatment on the other hand did arm me with a lot of information. I was in a very good program. One of the best in the area I was living in. I still had a major relapse that lasted for 7 months and involved one of the two most addictive and destructive practices. That is smoking meth. As I said befor, it almost killed me.
Please, please don't type cast me as one of those AA zelots. I am not one, but you keep interpreting my posts as if I am.
Contary to AA propaganda, relapse is probably a normal part of recovery. It is however, dangerous and potentialy deadly. Relapse often involves a greater expresion of addiction then befor. That was the case for me. Hey everythings got risks.
When I finaly got hold of my sences, I made the desicion to get sober. It was an expression of will. I also made the choice to do what was needed to get sober. I had an amasing momentary crack in my will power that set me back exactly 4 weeks. I again made the desision to do some. I put all the will I could muster into that decision. Please note, my mental faculties were barely functioning at all. Despite this I was willing to anything to get sober. Notice the words I was using, I, will, desicion. I completely agree that sobriaty is impossible without the will to get sober. AA even preaches this. But I did not do it all on willpower alone.
I also took action. The treatment I had did not work directly, but it did provide me with the information to formulate, with some friends of mine ( as I said, my brain was not working correctl), a plan. It was my plan, not my friends. My earlier post explains how I used NA. It was as a temporary band aid solution. I would not have used these meetings even for this if it was not for the fact that they were also attended by a couple of other addicts that not only had simular experiences to mine but had simular interest outside of NA.
Sobriaty is achieved through a process. Going through that process involves willpower. It helps to have the support of friends, but that is not essential. NA/AA can be a part of that process, as can Church or anything else that is helpfull. People are different, they need different things. But will power without a process, i.e. just say no, usually fails.
Every single one of my post centers around my objection to two notions. The notion that a newly abstaining former meth smoker should be able to sit in a room with meth being smoked and resist smoking themselves, and if they don't resist, then they just did not whan't to quit bad enough so fuck um. And that what applies to sever habitual users applies to addictive users also. BTW, AA is to blame big time for this misconception.
Im working on a well thought out reply to this, in responce to your very well written post. It will take me awile to go through it all. You provide a lot of information and make a lot of points, many I agree with. I am familiar with Stanton Peel, and respect his work, though I do not agree with all of his conclusions. On the whole, he does a lot of good for the community. He is very concerned with the impact of legislation on recovery. I wish more policy makers in the US would listen to him.
I made a post in another portion of this thread. It was in responce to your post were you called me a Jack-ass. I can't figure out why you wold do that. Jack-asses have their problems, but on a whole are pretty cool creatures. I apologize again for my overly agressive tone, and thank you for taking the effort to bring the discusion back to a more constructive mode.
Please read that post. I got a laugh when I read:
It is one method of sobriety and recovery, not the end-all-be-all
For now I have other things to take care of, despite the addictive nature of/.ing.
I guess, I should clear something up. If you read my to the other part of this thread that I promised, you probably realises that I do have a clue. I am not a big fan of AA or the current direction it is going in. I actualy used NA not AA meeting as a vehical to focus while waiting for my mind to start working again, about two month or so. Going to two or three NA meetings a day and to all the regular gatherings of my small ( under 20 adults) church,( which included three services, a bible study with fellowship, and a fellowship with bible study, every week), plus regulare schedualed activites with sober friends, resulted in a pattern that was easy to follow. It provided a structure to my life when I realy needed it. As you can see, NA was only part of my activity. It could have been something else. I am going to say something that will be *real* unpopulare. Man needs to work. We all need a regular pattern in our lives. We need to be doing something. For an addict, drug use becomes the pattern. I went to so many meeting because I was unemployed. I needed that extra structur. I am currently unemployed and have been for many months. The lack of structure has been the greatest single issue in my life during this time. It has lead to long boughts of depression. I am also ADD which makes it difficult to establish structure. I have used/. to provide some of that (know you know just how messed up I am).
AA/NA bring three thing to the table in a persons plan for recovery. All of which can be provided by other means.
1. Structur and pattern. I covered this already but I might add this. For an Alcoholic, going to an AA meeting is probably safer then going to the Bar. When a Alcoholic has a regular pattern of hitting the pub everyday after work, what is he going to do when he decides to get sober? A lot of recovery involves substitution.
2. Interaction with other people who have a greater chance at understanding because they are going through, or have gone through the same thing. The ability of any particular NA or AA group to provide this is incredibly variable. If one can not find individuals to interact with outside the meeting, then the meeting is pretty useless. The range of people who are addicts is huge. The range in the character of NA/AA groups is likewise huge. It sometimes takes some shoping around to find the right meeting, sometimes one will not be found.
3. The 12 Steps. Personly I prefer the NA version because it makes it clearer that Addiction is my problem, not societies, not my spouces, not my childhoods. Therefor it is up to me to get sober. The 12 steps are just a formalized guideline. I can get the same thing out of the Bible and a good plan for Christian development. I have not read the Koran, but I imaging that the same ideas can be found there. They are also expressed powerully in Buhdist thought.
To sum things up:
Can NA/AA meetings be usefull in a plan to recovery? Yes
Is NA/AA all one need to get sober? No
Can sobriety be achieved without NA/AA? Yes
Can NA/AA hinder recovery? Unfortunatly sometimes yes
What applies for the individual, applies to the synergistic combination of those individuals. You have probably heard in reference to Addicts, "Some are sicker then others". In the same way, it can be said of NA/AA meetings, "Some are more messed up then others". Meetings are just a tool, one of many that can help. NA/AA is not the end all be all of recovery, but it sure works better then willpower alone. Those who espose sobriaty through willpower are deluding themselves and everyone attracted to the notion. It is specificly this notion that I find dangerous. Refer to my other post for clarification on willpower and the addicted mind.
One More Time. Oh and this time I can use a spell checker, not that I need one or anything. woo hoo!
A note befor I begin: My harsh tone in earlier posts was motivated by the seriousness with which I approch the subject of chemical addiction. My addiction almost cost me my life. Failure to succesfully recover from addiction has cost some of my friends lives. And worst of all, drug addiction affects the lives of otherswho never did drugs. My foster son is the product of an Alcoholic mom and a drug addicted dad. I started taking care of him when he was 10 because his father was incapable of it... major tweeker. My son has fetal alcohol syndrom. He will never be completely normal. He has major difficulties which he has managed to over come. He is on his way to having a happy life. He will be 21 soon. Well enough of this.
There is a pretty clear definition for Addiction. Instead of defining it directly, I will instead describe addictive behaviore. It get to the point faster. There are three groups of drug using people. Remember, people are individuals so they don't always fit nicely into catagories. One more thing, Physical Addiction is not realy not relevent to what I am describing now. More on this and how it relates later.
Group 1: Casual users - These guys can take them or leave them. Substance use has little impact on their lives. If a substance is available they will only use it if it does not get in the way of something else. It does not matter if they used the substance one time, two times, or one hundred times. Their usage pattern does not change.
Group 2: Habitual users - The people in this group use the substance regularly. Usage has an effect on their life. They will make lifestyle changes in order to accomadate using the substance. When using the substance starts to take too big a toll, they will quit, sometimes with great effort. This pattern displays itself after multiple uses of the substance.
Group 3: Addictive users - For these people, substance use is not realy a matter of choice. They need the substance in order to be who they are. Usage has a major impact on their life. All aspects of their lifestyle centers around using the substance. They will continue to use despite any concequence. This pattern starts to raise its head within the first couple of time the substance is used, with some exceptions noted later.
The first two group are comprised of normal people. There is a fairly smooth transition between them. Group 1 consists primarily of drinkers and pot smokers. Any cocain or meth use is minor, infrequent and never via a pipe. Group 2 compises the majority of substance users. They have a wide range in the severity of their habit. The far end can apeare very simular to group 3. Group 2 users can usualy quit using on their own, though sometime they need some help. Regardless, sever impacts on lifestyle will always induce them to quit. It might take a few trys, but they will do it. Most heavy Habitual users have some degree of physical addiction. Once physical addiction is overcome ( as if this were a trivial matter)acctual lifestyle/attitude changes are usally minor, which is not to imply that they are easy. An Habitual user of one sunstance can be a Casual user of another. The casual use of that other substance can continue after the habitual use has stopped. Casual use of a substance once habitualy used is rare.
Group 3 users are not normal. The transition from Habitual use to addictive use has a major discontinuity. The location of this discontinuity depends a little on the substance. Addictive users very quickly wrap their live around using the substance they are addicted to. Substance use become a major drive in their lives. Willpower alone can't overcome that drive. To use a rather crude analogy, its like an adelesent using willpower to overcome the urge to masterbate. It ain't gona happen. Most addicts will become addicted to any substance.
I think its time to put a working definition on substance. For the sake of this
Sorry for the delay, I had a long write up. Unfortunatly I was doing it in the stupid/. comment input window, and moz just crashed on me. I was not paying attention to the time. At midnight on Sunday, I have a big cron run. Well Mozilla with its 490MB footprint gets knocked off. It takes up to much memory. I really need to update my system. I'm still using GTK 1.something ( i.e. no phoenix or whatever its called today). I was just putting it off untill after I landed a job, when I can afford to have my computor down for a couple of days while I install gentoo. Man this really bumms me out. What I had writen was good. This time I'll do the write-up in gvim and cut-n-past it. GRRRR
Please come back in a little bit. I want to respond, but first I need to put money on the books of a recovering addict who is in jail on probation vioaltion. Its almost 9 were I am.
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I never asked my color blind roommate to make sure the cloths I picked look all right. On the other hand, he always insited on doing the driving when we needed to go somewhere at night.
Well maybe you should learn some english. My answer describes the difference quit well.
Distributed computing is the warp. Grid computing is distributed computing that also has a weft. Can't explain it any simpler then that. I had an usage example but it is related to a project that I am currently involved in that I realy can't discouse.
Yay, I thought about that after posting. IBM is still precieved by most as a US firm even though in reality it is not. I would imagine that the Munich officials concider IBM an international entity.
I guess I should not assume that /. readership is familliar with American English coloquialisms. The word "shit" is used to denote a miscelaneous collection in a very informal maner, as in "You're shit is in the way." In the sentence that I used it in, I was refering to the collection of MS apps commonly used by buisness.
IBM is a US company, last time I checked. Maybe they moved? Its worth noting that SuSE does market the most viable Linux based OS for the European market, and that their supported hardware list is quite impressive. I usualy recommend SuSE to my non-geek friends as a good turn-key OS.
The techy peoples use of Linux does not bother MS too much. They have convinced large numbers of CEO, VPs, and BODs that they can not trust their IT depts. The have successfully stigmatised anyone knowlegable in Unix/Linux as being arrogant snobs fearfull of their place in the geek hierarchy. And allude to Unix profesional as jelouse of the power they hold through their understanding of an obtuse OS. About the nicest thing that the MS Marmen say about Unix experts is that they are all unfortunatly addicted of the CLI, and hold to it like a security blanket out of fear of GUIs which they are unuse to and ignorant of. MS will help them recover from their unfortunate condition. The worst things MS Marsmen say would burn any Linux users ears off. BTW, I have heard this stuff with my own ears.
In sumary, MS buisness objectives require that they have a virtual monopoly on the desktop. They will almost anything to maintain that monopoly.
Since when did tech reporters start writing like sports writers? Yay! Our team wins.
Another point, with everyone employed in low paying service jobs ( which are going to be the only ones left accessible to those not born with a silver spoon), who in the hell is going to be buying the hightech gadgets these outsourcing corprate asses are dreaming of producing?
I am furious that you think I should be happy selling shoes, when I have 20 years of programming experience. I have that experience because programming is WHAT I DO. IT IS WHO I AM. AND YES I am yelling. And I am also furious that you are so stupid as to believe that this outsourcing phenomina is driven by profitability. Most (not all) companies duing this are motivated by Wallstreet perception. They usualy are incredibly mismanaged ( following that "Growth Company" craze that got us into this shit) and use the cost of reorginization and creative bookkeeping to cover the fact that they are missmanaged. Shifting critical functions offshore should be precieved as a sign that the company is in trouble. In other words, what is happening is not happening because of economic reality, but Wallstreet fantasy. And you have the gaul to tell me I should be happy that I have lost my profesion becaus of the delusion of some corporate moron.
The worst thing about this is that frustrated profesionals with more liberal leanings then me, will clamour for the Government to do something. Then some Democrate will propose some legislation that will get passed, making matters even worse. Anything the US government does will be bad. Especialy for the companies that have not been shifing overseas. It will increase the cost of living farther exasperating the problem. The only solution ( other the the federal government figuring out a way to drive down the cost of living, which is not going to happen with Democrates in office) is a major change in the attitude of investors.
Hmm, I find Moz painfully slow ( e.g. almost a minute to save anything during which time all of Moz is locked up), but I thought it was due to the ancient 200Mhz PPro hardware I'm using. I just assumed that it would run alright on a snappier machine. I guess I should have not been so optimistic for an app that has a 400+MB footprint. BYW, does anyone know if some of this is due to its use of GTK?
At least you still have a job.
Either VMS on an Alpha or any IBM AIX system (not Alpha, get your info straight) will outperform any x86 box running any OS. This is especialy true of the example you gave. Face it, the x86 is a shitty architecture, no matter how many GHz you run it at.
and yet I find myself not being too concerned due to the overwhelming costs and grief that Peoplesoft software has put certain organizations I know of through. Yes, I realize it is complex software, but I felt as if we were actually beta testing Peoplesoft code for them when we implemented it Don't know much about Oracle do ya. Every Oracle ERP endevour has been a disaster.
How about CO2 cylinders that have the valve knocked off. Those puppies fly and they have no moving parts, well maybe the CO2 could be concidered a moving part. Anyways this story gave me quite a lift. I've been kinda stressed preparing for a trip to an interview. I'll be in the air in a about three hours. Time to jet. Now if I could only safely strap 60,000 volts to my butt and hover to where I need to go. Whould'nt have had to spend my last $100 on a plane ticket.
I do plan on making a proper responce to your post as I mentioned this morning. The stuff I posted after was just some quick filler, covering a few points I thought important. I in no way ment to discount or ignor the rest of what you were saying. I also need to go over what old Dr. Peeles been up to lately. I have not been to his site in a while. Hey a little heresy is good now and then:) I should not have been suprised that you brought him up. I would like to show were I feel his conclusion are wrong and why, but first I need to see if he has changed any of them. A lot has happened in the last few years. Please be patient. The chance of me posting a proper responce untill tomarow is slim. I am also coming down with a stupid cold. Bad news two days befor a job interview.
I have not had time to go over my own posts to see where I might have implied inconsisted opinions. But if I did, one possible cause could be the 10 year old. I had him all day yesterday, untill almost 10PM. He pretty much interups me with something every few minutes. Even when I tell him im buisy. He cant play his gameboy without me being involved. On top of this I am ADD as I mentioned earlier. It takes me awhile to refocus. This results in posts taking way to long to write, disjointed logic, and if I am not carfull, terribly mangeled sentences.
I have not change my view point, I have just calmed down, and am expressing myself better. I tend to be a bit excitable at times.
Structure is one of things I ususaly try to maintain. I fact, I had extencive plans to maintain structure once I learned I was to be layed off.
Please, please don't type cast me as one of those AA zelots. I am not one, but you keep interpreting my posts as if I am.
Contary to AA propaganda, relapse is probably a normal part of recovery. It is however, dangerous and potentialy deadly. Relapse often involves a greater expresion of addiction then befor. That was the case for me. Hey everythings got risks.
When I finaly got hold of my sences, I made the desicion to get sober. It was an expression of will. I also made the choice to do what was needed to get sober. I had an amasing momentary crack in my will power that set me back exactly 4 weeks. I again made the desision to do some. I put all the will I could muster into that decision. Please note, my mental faculties were barely functioning at all. Despite this I was willing to anything to get sober. Notice the words I was using, I, will, desicion. I completely agree that sobriaty is impossible without the will to get sober. AA even preaches this. But I did not do it all on willpower alone.
I also took action. The treatment I had did not work directly, but it did provide me with the information to formulate, with some friends of mine ( as I said, my brain was not working correctl), a plan. It was my plan, not my friends. My earlier post explains how I used NA. It was as a temporary band aid solution. I would not have used these meetings even for this if it was not for the fact that they were also attended by a couple of other addicts that not only had simular experiences to mine but had simular interest outside of NA.
Sobriaty is achieved through a process. Going through that process involves willpower. It helps to have the support of friends, but that is not essential. NA/AA can be a part of that process, as can Church or anything else that is helpfull. People are different, they need different things. But will power without a process, i.e. just say no, usually fails.
Every single one of my post centers around my objection to two notions. The notion that a newly abstaining former meth smoker should be able to sit in a room with meth being smoked and resist smoking themselves, and if they don't resist, then they just did not whan't to quit bad enough so fuck um. And that what applies to sever habitual users applies to addictive users also. BTW, AA is to blame big time for this misconception.
I was agreeing with your assesment of me acting like a jack-ass, I thought it a bit unfair to donkeys.
I made a post in another portion of this thread. It was in responce to your post were you called me a Jack-ass. I can't figure out why you wold do that. Jack-asses have their problems, but on a whole are pretty cool creatures. I apologize again for my overly agressive tone, and thank you for taking the effort to bring the discusion back to a more constructive mode.
Please read that post. I got a laugh when I read:
It is one method of sobriety and recovery, not the end-all-be-all
For now I have other things to take care of, despite the addictive nature of /.ing.
It was informative reading even if it came from the mouth of the devil ( or, I should say, a minor demon).
Its is cost/benifit, but applied to a specific case.
AA/NA bring three thing to the table in a persons plan for recovery. All of which can be provided by other means.
1. Structur and pattern. I covered this already but I might add this. For an Alcoholic, going to an AA meeting is probably safer then going to the Bar. When a Alcoholic has a regular pattern of hitting the pub everyday after work, what is he going to do when he decides to get sober? A lot of recovery involves substitution.
2. Interaction with other people who have a greater chance at understanding because they are going through, or have gone through the same thing. The ability of any particular NA or AA group to provide this is incredibly variable. If one can not find individuals to interact with outside the meeting, then the meeting is pretty useless. The range of people who are addicts is huge. The range in the character of NA/AA groups is likewise huge. It sometimes takes some shoping around to find the right meeting, sometimes one will not be found.
3. The 12 Steps. Personly I prefer the NA version because it makes it clearer that Addiction is my problem, not societies, not my spouces, not my childhoods. Therefor it is up to me to get sober. The 12 steps are just a formalized guideline. I can get the same thing out of the Bible and a good plan for Christian development. I have not read the Koran, but I imaging that the same ideas can be found there. They are also expressed powerully in Buhdist thought.
To sum things up:
Can NA/AA meetings be usefull in a plan to recovery? Yes
Is NA/AA all one need to get sober? No
Can sobriety be achieved without NA/AA? Yes
Can NA/AA hinder recovery? Unfortunatly sometimes yes
What applies for the individual, applies to the synergistic combination of those individuals. You have probably heard in reference to Addicts, "Some are sicker then others". In the same way, it can be said of NA/AA meetings, "Some are more messed up then others". Meetings are just a tool, one of many that can help. NA/AA is not the end all be all of recovery, but it sure works better then willpower alone. Those who espose sobriaty through willpower are deluding themselves and everyone attracted to the notion. It is specificly this notion that I find dangerous. Refer to my other post for clarification on willpower and the addicted mind.
A note befor I begin: My harsh tone in earlier posts was motivated by the seriousness with which I approch the subject of chemical addiction. My addiction almost cost me my life. Failure to succesfully recover from addiction has cost some of my friends lives. And worst of all, drug addiction affects the lives of otherswho never did drugs. My foster son is the product of an Alcoholic mom and a drug addicted dad. I started taking care of him when he was 10 because his father was incapable of it ... major tweeker. My son has fetal alcohol syndrom. He will never be completely normal. He has major difficulties which he has managed to over come. He is on his way to having a happy life. He will be 21 soon. Well enough of this.
There is a pretty clear definition for Addiction. Instead of defining it directly, I will instead describe addictive behaviore. It get to the point faster. There are three groups of drug using people. Remember, people are individuals so they don't always fit nicely into catagories. One more thing, Physical Addiction is not realy not relevent to what I am describing now. More on this and how it relates later.
Group 1: Casual users - These guys can take them or leave them. Substance use has little impact on their lives. If a substance is available they will only use it if it does not get in the way of something else. It does not matter if they used the substance one time, two times, or one hundred times. Their usage pattern does not change.
Group 2: Habitual users - The people in this group use the substance regularly. Usage has an effect on their life. They will make lifestyle changes in order to accomadate using the substance. When using the substance starts to take too big a toll, they will quit, sometimes with great effort. This pattern displays itself after multiple uses of the substance.
Group 3: Addictive users - For these people, substance use is not realy a matter of choice. They need the substance in order to be who they are. Usage has a major impact on their life. All aspects of their lifestyle centers around using the substance. They will continue to use despite any concequence. This pattern starts to raise its head within the first couple of time the substance is used, with some exceptions noted later.
The first two group are comprised of normal people. There is a fairly smooth transition between them. Group 1 consists primarily of drinkers and pot smokers. Any cocain or meth use is minor, infrequent and never via a pipe. Group 2 compises the majority of substance users. They have a wide range in the severity of their habit. The far end can apeare very simular to group 3. Group 2 users can usualy quit using on their own, though sometime they need some help. Regardless, sever impacts on lifestyle will always induce them to quit. It might take a few trys, but they will do it. Most heavy Habitual users have some degree of physical addiction. Once physical addiction is overcome ( as if this were a trivial matter)acctual lifestyle/attitude changes are usally minor, which is not to imply that they are easy. An Habitual user of one sunstance can be a Casual user of another. The casual use of that other substance can continue after the habitual use has stopped. Casual use of a substance once habitualy used is rare.
Group 3 users are not normal. The transition from Habitual use to addictive use has a major discontinuity. The location of this discontinuity depends a little on the substance. Addictive users very quickly wrap their live around using the substance they are addicted to. Substance use become a major drive in their lives. Willpower alone can't overcome that drive. To use a rather crude analogy, its like an adelesent using willpower to overcome the urge to masterbate. It ain't gona happen. Most addicts will become addicted to any substance.
I think its time to put a working definition on substance. For the sake of this
Sorry for the delay, I had a long write up. Unfortunatly I was doing it in the stupid /. comment input window, and moz just crashed on me. I was not paying attention to the time. At midnight on Sunday, I have a big cron run. Well Mozilla with its 490MB footprint gets knocked off. It takes up to much memory. I really need to update my system. I'm still using GTK 1.something ( i.e. no phoenix or whatever its called today). I was just putting it off untill after I landed a job, when I can afford to have my computor down for a couple of days while I install gentoo. Man this really bumms me out. What I had writen was good. This time I'll do the write-up in gvim and cut-n-past it. GRRRR
Please come back in a little bit. I want to respond, but first I need to put money on the books of a recovering addict who is in jail on probation vioaltion. Its almost 9 were I am.