Slashdot Mirror
Addicted to Information?
SiMac writes "According to this New York Times article, two Harvard faculty members say that information causes a "dopamine squirt" in humans, a rush similar to that given by narcotics. Just as narcotics are addictive, information is as well. They've given the disorder of information addiction the name 'pseudo-ADD' because it tends to cause somewhat ADD-like symptoms."
What do I hate school!
dopamine squirt. that sounds naughty :)
What are you talking about?
Damn this is interesting! I must know more about it! More! More! And for some strange reason I want some twinkies.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
This sort of explains why I was addicted to Everything2 for so long. I don't know if I buy that it's as bad as narcotics addicitons, though.
This article essentially states that 'being connected' is distracting and shortens attention spans, and that it's also pleasurable. So far so good- but putting a new medical label on it seems akin to creating a 'eating cookies is pleasurable disorder' or 'loud sounds and flashing lights harm one's ability to focus disorder'. It's common sense. Medical science nowadays gets excited when they reinvent the wheel.
Hmmm just how long will it take until some online doctor begins perscribing ritalin to treat such a condition?
I can't see how this can be an addiction. Anything labelled an "addiction" means it is used to the detriment of important things in one's life. Honestly, the more information the better.
You may as well say people can get addicted to food and water.
I'm addicted. This can be proven with that I always check up on Slashdot every fifteen minutes.
What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
I can stop anytime I want.
Hmm . . . you think that the test subjects being harvard geeks may have something to do with it. I bet that the guys at your local tech school do not have the same reaction.
Now I know why I read /.
my associative arrays can kick your hash - TCL
At last I have a *medical* excuse for never leaving the computer.
I can certainly relate for the need for novelty, most web sites get pretty old after one read. S'why stuff like irc and irc are useful because you can your info buzz but it's mostly noise so it doesn't really take away from your concentration.
It's kind of a synthetic substitute for proper human contact. One satisfies the need for communication while getting on with something more important.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
for playing online at work? Americans with Disabilities Act protects us, eh? Kickass.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
I get that orgasmic feeling. I thought it was just for Taco's witty remarks...
Just wait until information is added to the list of forbidden substances, and included in the War on Drugs.
a submitter knows how to use a NYTimes Googlefied no-reg link.
wow
(yes, I'm trolling)
I can see what will happen next.... WAR ON INFORMATION wait a sec... that is happening right now...crap
Only people addicted to information would have been able to find this article.
The pair have their own term for this condition: pseudo-attention deficit disorder. Its sufferers do not have actual A.D.D., but, influenced by technology and the pace of modern life, have developed shorter attention spans. They become frustrated with long-term projects, thrive on the stress of constant fixes of information, and physically crave the bursts of stimulation from checking e-mail or voice mail or answering the phone.
I wonder if these are the kind of managers who F-up a project just because they like the yelling and screeming associated with emergency efforts to get it back on track. They like the scenes of Trek where the captain is yelling at the engineers to fix something now else they will be vaperized.
Table-ized A.I.
Godamn I gotta read that article! BRB!
So that is why I feel the urge to load Slashdot every 15 minutes! Come on, I KNOW I'm not the only one! ;)
Did anyone else read this instead?
Hate me!
Have these two guys ever turned on a TV recently?
/.
Amongst ABC,CBC,NBC,CNN,FOX, where the f@*$ did they find information in them??
Ohhh you mean
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
Must have input! More input!
/Obligatory movie reference.
This tagline is copyrighted material. Please send $10 for an affordable replacement.
They are quite possibly the biggest providers of this so-called "information". Just wait till Congress outlaws this. Hope you guys have some good lawyers. I know who I'm suing first.
BTW I think I do qualify for this diagnosis. As well as an addiction to cookies. Mmmmm
-- taking over the world, we are.
..if I hadn't been so busy getting my fix of information, cyberpr0n and coffeine, I might even have read more than the first page.
Luckely, for other addictions there are tests to prove you're in the dangersone =P
Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
You mean like checking /. every 5.67 minutes to see if there's some new story posted?
I mean, c'mon.... I need my fix this weekend, and the new stories have been slow. I'll just keep cliking the refresh button.
...CowboyNeal. His love is a drug.
So now we'll be perscribed amphetamines to 'treat' this invented disease? I'm still not convinced that giving kids or adults ritalin or other stimulants does anything positive, other than putting them into a non-argumentative speed psychosis.
:-)
There are lots of people who think ADD was invented solely to gain credit for the people who conducted the initial study, and later by the drug companies to treat the invented condition. Just wait for another newspaper to pick this story up...
ADD, PMDD, and now Info-Addiction Disorder? Better watch out, they'll try and drug you up. Even better, they'll rename an existing drug and use that to 'treat' you. Serafem is actually Prozac. Claritin is also Alavert (amazing what an advertising budget will do).
OK, I think I've spread enough conspiracy for one day.
fair.org counterpunch.com truthout.com indymedia.org salon.com
eff.org guerrilla.net debian.org gentoo.org
And this is the only story you have for me in the last what .. 45 minutes? I need a fix here, people!
Dave
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Before the internet I was a library junkie. I'd go to the library three times a week. Then in college I'd go there every day. Then the internet came along, and I obsessively check news sites like slashdot, wired news, msnbc, bottomquark, science news online, skeptic news, etc. It's really a problem. It's either an addiction or an extremely strong habit. There are better things I could do with two hours per day. ;-)
The article doesn't say you get a shot of dopamine when you connect, it just quotes some psycologist saying it's *like* a dopamine squirt. Nowhere do they site research backing up that claim.
The whole article is really just a set of case studies of people who do many things at once all the time, and who find that makes them unhappy for one reason or another. Throw in a few off the cuff, baseless statements by shrinks, and the NYT has made a roll-your-own disorder: pseudo-ADD. It's not even it's own disorder, just a fake version of another hotly debated syndrome.
When I see real scientific data showing that A) there is an actual neurochemical response to data that can lead to addiction, B) that this addiction can and has happened in real people, and C) that it has caused these people's quality of life to be reduced, I'll believe it's a disorder. Right now, though, all we've got is some unhappy businessmen and a few shrinks looking to make a name for themselves.
Narrative
What are my options for treatment?
No, seriously...
Please?
[o]_O
At least we finally know why Slashdot is so popular...
Must... get... Slashdot... fix... Ahhhh.
Much better. Now I can work for another fifteen minutes before checking the site again.
SLASHDOT!!!!!!
If I have to go a day without reading Slashdot, I go onto convulsions.
So he thinks it is like a dopamine squirt just by watching at anectdotical data.
It is sad that you can come up with a new psychological disorder just by hearing stories and then writing the down just because you are from an ivy-league university.
Any real data from a controlled study? No.
And that conclusion that multitasking decreases productivity... anyone who studied OS design knows that it depends on many things (the effect on overall productivity).
Curiosity
John: Hi... I'm John.
ADDA Crowd: Hi, John!
John: And I'm a Salshdot addict...
Being on this site, yes I'd have to say I am an information addict. This site is like an addictive drug. But is it really like ADD? Hmm, I don't believe that. I mean, really, how could what I have be like ADD when... hey, what's for dinner?
That's what it all boils down to. If it gives you pleasure or enjoyment, it is per se addictive. There is a direct correlation between the amount of pleasure X gives and the addictiveness of X. Getting information is enjoyable. Watching TV, eating twinkies, shooting heroin, and sex are all enjoyable, thus addictive. Some things (drugs) have physical means of causing addiction as well as the psychological one based on enjoyment, but the only difference is those things are harder to quit. Addiction is addiction. And there's nothing innately wrong with it, either. Problems only start when you can't get access to the addictor anymore.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
Seriously, though, to whatever extent this can be meaningfully described as an addiction, I think it might be better compared to over-eating disorders (bingeing) than to drug addictions, at least in terms of treatment.
With drug addictions, the idea is to minimize the dosage, hopefully to zero or at least to some very low "maintenance level". But with over-eating disorders, it's not just a matter of avoiding food, but eating healthy amounts of healthy food, and giving your body time to digest it properly. The analogy to treating a compulsive information disorder seems obvious. (Ob:IANAD.)
One could also make obvious comparisons to the ubiquity of unhealthy food in much of society and the ubiquity of bad information. Not just incorrect information, but badly prepared information from bad "ingredients", presented in ways that can't be meaningfully "digested".
Also, I bet there's an information-access disorder analogous to anorexia -- people who avoid as much information as they can.
It has been shown in numerous psychological studies that drug addiction is only an unconscious attempt to compensate for a lack of a happy sex life. A freudian analysis of drugs gives more insight: What is a cigarette if not an elongated phallic objet taken in the mouth and sucked on by the smoker (note that male smokers repress their homosexuality) Similarly, a syringe that penetrates the body and injects a fluid is quite obvious.
As for the news: you noticed that slashdot's logo is composed of a long phallic symbol (the slash) and a symbol representing a hole (the dot). It is a well-known phenomenon that geeks seem to have problems with love and generally have unsatisfying if not inexistent sex lives. That's what brings them to slashdot. Come on, don't tell me it ain't so. you know it...
http://www.stc-sjvc.org/bestof/infoholc.htm
at least a year a go i found this page after entering the term in a searchengine.
I have allways been an info junkie...(and I got ADD too(fun!))..I collected hundreds of science/electronic magazines when I was in high school decades ago...that was the basic info lifeline for nerds back then..libraries were okay, but you were lucky if your local lib. had any up-to-date books on high tech (here in canada, I suppose the local univ. library had more stuff, but I didn't discover them until later)..I guess if you lived around Mit or stanford in those days, your local library was way more up to date. Anyway...stuff is much better now, the internet has caused a big paradigm shift, now everything moves like it should since (I think popular nerd magazines tend to publish better articles) everybody (nerds) has access to basiclly instant info, it can get a bit much to keep up with everything. This of course, means that we are all approaching, or on the vertical part of the exponential growth curve of science and tchnology, just imagine what all the future genieses are going to accomplish with easy and cheap access to this and the future internet, especially if we can get voice actived/slightlly intelleigen computers to do all the grunt work of finding info and if we could create an interative web existence so people could exchange ideas easily (say, just by thinking about something)
...because from now on if you seem way more curious than average Joe Public, that's because you have a "disease" that needs to be "cured". Now I can understand that something like epilepsia ought to be considered as a disease, but why should intense curiosity be considered a "disease" or even a problem ? There have been trends like that in history when many "abnormal behaviours" got described as pathologies, and it didn't get pretty most of the times... And BTW, the dopamine stuff is pretty normal when you're doing something you're used to enjoy.
United States of America, good ol' backers of world peace.
A person can have an obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. Such a person can be 'addicted' to just about anything. The question is whether the substance is medically recognized as "addictive". You can also replace "substance" with "activity" or whatever.
I am gonna sue CmdrTaco for getting me additive to news!!! I wonder if Bush will start a "war against data"? hum...
You're kidding, right? So it's more productive for me to track down that one last news story on an obscure subject then it would be to leave early and get more billable hours?
"The more information the better?"
Really?
Opportunity cost, my anonymous friend, opportunity cost.
Speaking as somebody with the email tag of "data omnivore", (used to be "Mycroft") I can assure you that while more information can be good, making money, dating, exercising, and a dozen other things, can be better.
"Hello everybody. My name is Rustin and I'm a dataholic."
Yeah, when you have an idle moment in the airport and you start reading the ingredient list on the granola bar because suddenly you care, then you know that the pursuit of data has passed beyond the rational and entered the, yes, that's right, addictive.
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
..I thought I might be suffering from adult ADD but I was skeptical because I had no prior history when I was younger.
Scary how this fits my behavioral patterns over the last 9 months.
That's me all through. Throw me something and if I do it a little bit long enough, I'm stuck doing it for the next few months or years until something different comes along.
The difficult bit (which would be excellent if I could figure it out) is getting myself to control the things I'm addicted to. A lot of power in that, I think.
...should be regulated by the FDA.
In keeping with other 'Net trends, I propose that "pseudo-ADD" is an inferior name compared to "iADD". Thank you,
:w
When will this pseudomedical crud cease? What this oh-so-genius has managed to discover is (1) humans like some stuff (2) humans tend to seek the things they like (3) if life currently sucks, many humans will use pleasurable actvities to prop them up and stave off depression (4) one of the many things that people like is finding out information, and this can be observed neurochemically.
From this the bozo pulls forth an addiction.
A pox on all these doctors and their phony diseases. A pox on all the "victims", who find the excuse for their hypocrisy convenient.
Addiction does not exist. Chemical withdrawal is no more painful than bad flu. Habits can be broken by choice - when you don't break them, it's because, on balance, you'd simply prefer not to.
Many religion's seem to think that it already is. Just take this Flander's quote:
Science is like a blabber-mouth that spoils a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things that don't want to know! Important things!
Best. Webhost. Ever. Dreamhost.
I mean, libraries were okay, but you were lucky if your local library had any up-to-date books on high technology. (Here, in Canada, I suppose the local library had more stuff, but I didn't discover them until later). I guess if you lived around MIT or Stanford in those days, your local library was way more up to date.
Anyway, stuff is much better now...the Internet has caused a big paradigm shift, and now everything moves like it should. I think popular nerd magazines tend to publish better articles and everybody (esp. nerds) has access to basiclly instant info. It can get a bit much to keep up with everything. This of course, means that we are all approaching, or on the vertical part of, the exponential growth curve of science and technology
Just imagine what all the future geniuses are going to accomplish with easy and cheap access to this and the future internet...! Especially if we can get voice activated/slightly intelleigent computers to do all the grunt work of finding info and if we could create an interactive Web existence so people could exchange ideas easily (say, just by thinking about something).
Information wants to be free.
;-)
Is that free as in speech or free as in information? I don't buzz off beer.
Procrastination.
I'm sure everyone here can relate. Rather than actually doing anything, it is often more fun to read about doing something.
It happened to me too, and yes it's addictive. Have you every wonder what makes you watch countless hours Discovery Channel running features about WW2 when in fact you hate all WW2 movies and/or literature (overdebated subject)? How about History channel mesmerized by the biography of a person you never heard about, whose actions and acts may hardly have anything to do with your main interests? Ever found yourself reading articles from newspapers, zines and such(*) even though you really have no interest to you? /. every 10 minutes to see if there's something new" and a) would've said it's BAD they were gonna mod me as Flamebait or b) would've said it's GOOD I would've gotten modded as Troll :))
(*) - (if I would've said "open
I've done all that. If it was in print, I would read it (have you ever caught yourself reading, with no reason, beer bottle labels? well, I do. why? I don't know. I can't stop... reading.). If it was on Discover/History/TLC/etc I would watch it.
First I thought it was fun. But I wasn't "smiling". Then I've blamed it on having an inquisitive mind. But that didn't hold water cuz I was not interested in finding out more. Then I realized I just had an "urge" to process information. Did nothing with it, just read it/listened to it and discarded it.
My lunch break consists of reading everything on slashdot, including posts. Sad. I've recently spent evenings learning how to customize/mod a motorcycle. I don't own one. I've lost two days looking for Widgets/Toolkits and language bindings. I only do web/command line apps. I write code (and goof around, of course) for 12 hours - I come home feeling excellent. I spend 6 hours a day goofing around and browsing/reading stuff (i.e. not "working") and I come home with the worst headache ever.
No reason for all these, but somehow happens. Maybe I should step forward and admit I have an addiction...
__________
Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace!
this explains a few things for me... while i've just come home from spending an hour at the beach reading a book, these occasions of absense from the network of news and friends have become rare for me. i found relief in managing my news addiction in reading news with an RSS newsfeed reader that polls all the news sites automatically. This saves a lot of time -- i have no excuse any more to spend (probably hours each day)/a lots of time checking web sites like the BBC site, slashdot, macslash, versiontracker.... i welcome the productivity boost. let's see how long until my brain has increased the daily news volume...
A while back I couldn't stop reading stuff... I literally had to read something constantly or it would really annoy me... oh well :P
--
It's called obsessive compulsive disorder. All of the people in that article exhibited classic symptoms of it. Constantly checking one's email and constantly checking news are just another manifestation of it.
read my blog
musings on politics and technol
I notice this more and more often when I'm discussing things with people.
"If I only had google now we would know who is right". No point of arguing about anything (that can be proven) as long as you don't have access to the Internet.
--
Will work for bandwidth.
Aaaahhhhh! In-put!
You're using her as bait, Master!
<obvious prank>
I guess that's why I'm reloading Slashdot instead of taking my micropauzes...
</obvious prank>
...little research has been done into why some people are compulsively drawn to multitasking. But he theorizes that the allure has several layers. Multitasking offers a guise of productivity, a "macho" show of accomplishment, and similarities to a quick amphetamine rush.
I.E., I gotta be firstest (witness the "First Post" phenomenon here) no matter what it takes, otherwise I will lose face.
Far too much emphasis is placed on hype. In this computer age, speed tends to eclipse wisdom. By the time second thoughts distill, it's too late.
My former boss was a famous (Nobel Laureate) Biochemist, in his 70's. He can't even type.
Once, a colleague was showing us his new IBM thinkpad notebook computer. Us younger guys were admiring how fast it was, and remarking loudly how we wish we had one of those (hint, hint), 'cause then we could get so much more work done......
Then my boss said:
"I don't know - I find my thinking to be the rate limiting step. It takes me hours to formulate and write my thoughts down. My secretary can type them up in minutes."
We felt pretty stupid after that.
I think, therefore I thought.
... just coffee. Wonder why so many techies are coffee hounds?
"According to the Slashdot post your now reading, two geeky Slashdot editors say that trolling Slashdot causes a "dopamine squirt" in humans, a rush similar to that given by narcotics. Just as narcotics are addictive, trolling Slashdot is as well. They've given the disorder of incessant trolling the name 'goatse-ADD' because it tends to make people somewhat analy-retentive."
I need to know more...I must know more
.
.
.
seriously though, is this really a bad thing? you could do worse than being addicted to the acquisition of knowledge.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Before naming one more condition. Maybe he is actually A.D.H.D.
Mr. Lax said he loved the constant stimulation. "It's instant gratification," he said, and it staves off boredom."
I wonder if Mr. Lax has been tested for A.D.H.D.?
"We all suffer a kind of A.D.D," he said. "It's a bit of a joke, but it's true. We are easily bored. We have lots of things going on at the same time."
Jeesh sounds a lot like me and I have A.D.H.D.
Go to a psychologist and ask them for medicine to treat Obsessive compulsive disorder.
Anyone hear anything about the massive hack-fest set to go today? Seems pretty quite out there to me.
I watched a program on PBS some months back (NOVA, perhaps) that chronicled a series of scientific studies that demonstrated women exhibited a natural ability to work at multiple things at the same time ("multi-task"?), and men were able to accomplish successfully only one task at a time. The inference was that the natural talents women have for raising children and taking care of families lend themselves to being excellent secretaries (politically incorrect, perhaps, but a valid example of having to do multiple things at the same time).
In one of the videotaped studies, a man was shown trying to pull off the secretarial equivalent of walking while chewing gum -- he was given a series of tasks which included making sets of photocopies while being subjected to a repeated series of interruptions that included a ringing telephone. To sum up, he didn't perform any of his tasks very well, whereas the woman in the identical situation performed all of them efficiently.
I don't know what long-term effects of information overload are on men or women, but I do know that while parties are fun, trying to have a real conversation with someone at one is a waste of time. Then again, the same can be said of most parties. The distractions can be fun, but often a waste of time.
Man, more and more every personality trait is becoming a 'disease' complete with drugs to get rid of it. People talk about how this is caused by over psychologicalizing everything, but actually I think it has to do with our war on drugs. People think taking drugs for anything other then being sick is "wrong" so they convince themselves that they are "sick" in order to take drugs.
clearly, this is a disease. recreational pharmophobic syndrome, and should be cured by smoking liberal doses of pot.
Seriously though, if people want to take drugs to change parts of their psyche that they want changed, I say go for it. But I'd rather not see everything labeled as a 'disease' to be 'treated'
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"It takes the same pathway as our drugs of abuse and pleasure."
Pleasure is not a disorder.
Love is not a disorder.
Feeling joy, experiencing satisfaction, the simplicity of happiness is not a disease to be stamped out, stressed over, or guilt tripped.
And the talents of others are not to be ridiculed, for all of our talents are ultimately meaningless by some standard.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http;//www.doxpara.com
War on information?
Brought to you by Dick Cheney of the GWB Marionette Co. producing lifelike presidents for nearly four years.
Must... check... slashdot... Actually, in all seriousness, I know that I am addicted to information a bit. That is why I look forward everyday to checking slashdot, gamespy, tom's hardware, and my email. Hi, my name is mojo and I'm addicted to information.
This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!
"Both love the game, and it has an added benefit for Dad: he can play with one hand while using the other to talk on the phone or check e-mail."
An unfortunate turn of phrase considering that slashdot readers were all over the article...
graspee
I think its BS. Some people can concentrate better then other people, just like some people are taller then other people, and some people have darker skin, etc.
Anyone who takes Ritalin is going to be able to concentrate better then they were before, just like anyone who takes melatonix will have darker skin then otherwise and everyone who takes steroids will have bigger muscles then they were before.
Arbitrarily classifying people into "ADD" and "non-add" is stupid.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"When we get the transient facts, we will feel the info high..."
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
any excess will soon become a vice. This applies to anything. Sorry I am not terribly impressed with this study. Anything can become a mental addiction.
If we don't make light of everything, we are just stumbling in the dark - Blank
Infotainment seems to be a significantly western condition.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I have since moved on to Wikipedia.
I find Wikipedia provides a lot more objective information without all the useless fluff. Another plus is that it doesn't have that bizarre "culture" that e2 has. I don't want to have to make friends to record information.
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
We don't have to accept that euphemism. You cannot wage war on an inanimate object. Real people are the victims of this war, and we can help highlight that fact by calling it the War on Drug Users
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I can believe that multitasking harms productivity. My problem with the article is that for the most part killing boredom can be a very good thing.
Case in point: Yesterday I was at the DMV. Because of my handy PDA I was able to pull up my math notes and do some studying, run some back-ups at work, and write an email to my Grandmother. Would the article writers really have me believe that my life would have been better served for me to have stood in the line for four hours being bored?
This also brings up a general stereotype I've never understood, that videogame players have short attention spans. Who complains about the length of movies like "Magnolia" or "The Two Towers"? It isn't geeks. It's so called "normal" people. How is being a coder, sitting down and doing a complicated task involving math, for about four hours at a time supposedly supposed to kill my attention span?
Good thing that's not what science is about.
Although disorders like this have, at least in some cases, definite biochemical causes, we don't just say "Paranoid" "Not paranoid" "Schizophrenic" "Not schizophrenic" "ADD" "NOT ADD"
All of these are just tools to help us understand. If we show that there is a link between people with attention span problems, and the way their brains react to new information, how is that not science, or not important?
Some people are taller than others. Some people have dark skin. When you drop a hammer it falls. If we don't investigate why, and always look for a deeper understanding of what's going on.. what's the point ?
I'm always telling people I dont watch TV as if that was some sort superior quality or something. But the truth is, I dont' watch TV because it's like breathing through a straw. I am completely addicted to information and the TV can't meet my dosage requirements.
Happily, age and information overload is taking its toll, and am now able to go camping (for example) with no source of information for days and not start sweating about what I'm missing. I think one day I will disconnect and never look back.
Not today though.
There really isn't anything magical about information per se. Anything pleasurable is addictive in theory since the reward circuit in the brain is a positive feedback system. Obviously, there are addictions to substances, but also look at addictions to gambling, to sex, to eating. A "hit" of information likewise probably activates the reward circuit, flooding parts of the brain with dopamine. So, while there isn't any hard data in the article, the idea certainly follows current thinking about addiction and frontal lobe (dys)function.
Seriously.
Blar.
And the fact that during orgasm, you're stoned doesn't affect you?
Damn! to think it was so easy.. I just have to watch Discovery next friday night.
"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
The articles analogy to "ADD" and many references to it within the slashdot article reminds me of a joke I heard recently I'd like to share.
Q: How many kids with ADD does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Hey! Wanna go ride bikes?!?
Beware blue cats moving at
slashdot & their ilk
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Interesting. While I can't say I've experienced *that* kind of information addiction, the need for multiple data streams to the noggin, it has been my experience that absorbing pieces of information, and recalling them causes a little "dopamine squirt."
That's the reason why when people have a word or a name on the tip of their tongue, there is a good chance they might say something like "wait wait! don't tell me!" It is SATISFYING to recall information instead. I know this very well, as I used to be a high school quizbowler.
It is satisfying for me, both to absorb information, and to recall it, and I don't mean on a philisophical level, I mean on a brain-chemistry-physical level, similar to the satisfaction derived from eating food that is separate from hunger alleviation or from taste.
Oxygen can give you a high feeling. I think I'm addicted to air...
They should have named it Slashdotitis!-)
Don't forget the megalitigation that we can get for suing computer makers, book publishers, newspapers, and radio and television stations. We Must Protect Our Children from the horrors of too much information.
By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
I've noticed this at work. I'll be trying to do fifteen things at once, with at least a dozen windows on my taskbar. Other people just have one or two.
At home, I don't feel comfortable watching TV or movies. I need to be reading, writing, or playing a game as well.
I know several friends (all nerds/geeks/dorks) who feel the same way. They are bored by simply "chilling".
I definitely think this topic should be explored more, especially in the mental health field, since, said friends and myself, are all in counseling for depression among other things. It could be a coincidence, but it's strange that all of us are in it. No other click I've been in has such a high rate of depression
...they are compulsively drawn to the constant stimulation provided by incoming data.
They must mean pr0n?
Here's the definition from the Harvard Medical School Division on Addictions:
Addiction is the compulsive use of a substance or activity resulting in physical, psychological, or social harm to the user; the user continues in this pattern of behavior despite the harms that result. Addiction is differentiated from psychological dependence and physical dependence. Psychological dependence is the feeling that someone has when they think that drugs or activities are necessary to achieve a feeling of well-being. Physical dependence is marked by the development of tolerance to a drug or activity's effects so that increased amounts of a drug or activity are needed to obtain the desired effect. Tolerance also reveals its presence by the development of withdrawal symptoms when the drug or activity is stopped for a sufficient time. These matters are more complex than often thought.
And here's the definition of addiction from the National Institutes of Health's MedLine.
Drug dependence (addiction) is compulsive use of a substance despite negative consequences which can be severe; drug abuse is simply excessive use of a drug or use of a drug for purposes for which it was not medically intended. Physical dependence on a substance (needing a drug to function) is not necessary or sufficient to define addiction. There are some substances which don't cause addiction but do cause physical dependence (for example, some blood pressure medications) and substances which cause addiction but not classic physical dependence (cocaine withdrawal, for example, doesn't have symptoms like vomiting and chills; it is mainly characterized by depression).
What you described is a voluntary lack of self-control. I think that's called gluttony.
Is the internet addictive? Sure, I bet it is. Do people with ADD tend to be more likely to browse the web compulsively? Probably. ADD is one of those conditions that is described by a wide variety of symptoms. Check out Driven to Distraction. Does this mean that the information is addictive? Not neccessarily.
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.h
I draw an analogy to food. Human beings evolved in a calorie-poor environment. The optimal survival strategy was to scarf all the available calories and store as much fat as possible.
Now the human beings around me, at least, live in a calorie-rich environment. I've had to develop an entirely different way of looking at calories.
Similarly, within my lifetime, my environment has changed from data-poor to data-rich. I used to be able to read every bit of information about certain topics of interest to me. But now, I have to choose how to allocate my information-intake time, just as I have to choose how to allocate my calorie budget.
I know for me, when I surf the internet I usually have at least three different tabs open at once. As I was reading that article I was reading another article on www.macslash.org in addition to checking my email... ooh the rush!!!
And let's not also forget the evolution of cable news, with an american flag, the time in all different time zones, the scrolling news bar, the news program itself AND the terror threat level. My parents are odviously addicted to fox news because it gets them high.
I loved to buy a few magazines and sit in a cafe and read them and write in my journal or sketch someone. People talked to people that they didn't know in public places. Now I choose my cafes according to the speed and expense of their WiFi connections and the top floor of my favorite cafe in Seattle resembles a computer lab. I don't often buy magazines as I usually already read the content online.
The last time I tried to spend an afternoon in a cafe without my laptop and a good book by an author I enjoyed, I found myself quickly getting very bored and cut the afternoon short. You can't go back I guess.
Slashdot itself is a perfect example of pseudo-attention deficit disorder. As I often post comments to stories late in the life of the story, I rarely think that many people read what I have to write as their focus has already passed on to the newer story. You can see it in how quickly people scramble to post their half-formed thoughts... which often get modded up higher than they deserve by virtue of being there first.
That's not a dig... just an observation.
"Under the spreading chestnut tree, I sold you and you sold me."
Breathing (air) gives me a "dopamine squirt". I just can't get enough of it.
I think this guy suffers from this.
Johnny 5 alive!
And a junkie I guess.
KFG
This is simply how we study things. We now know that there are groups of people who react "differently" to certain sets of stimuli, and we have studied the phenomenon enough to have come to a general, but highly contested decision to treat such people with stimulants of various sorts. w00t. What now? Well, while certain researchers delve into the biochemical, genetic, physiological details of this condition, others will subspecialize in particular demographic slices of the group.
That's what grad school is for, isn't it? "Oh, oh, find something that noone else has really put too much time into and go write up a really long paper and come back in a few years so we can yell at you for a few hours".
Even outside of academia, the mentality is pervasive. This is why there's an aisle in stores for "cleaners". There are cleaning products for every imaginable material, for variants of materials. For vinyl, acrylic, plastics, laminates, polished surfaces, glass, concrete, stainless steel, silver, marble, stained wood, unstained wood, painted surfaces, etc... if we really didn't think that way, all we'd have is soap and water.
In any case, I'm glad we do these things. Of course, I am currently being strongly swayed by the prescribed afternoon dose of methylphenidate which is just now (aaah) breaking the blood-brain-barrier. Without people digging frantically into statistical data concerning behavior patterns, I wouldn't have my Ritalin.
The summary presented here is misleading - it seizes upon one small aspect of the article and makes it out to be the focus of the entire thing. It completely ignores the social aspects of the subculture surrounding technology. Here's my capsule summary of the article:
Always On: Is Multi-tasking Addictive?
The NY Times has a long and detailed article about multi-tasking in a communications technology-infused lifestyle. The fundamental questions it is trying to address is whether or not these technologies are addictive, do they tap into an underlying pathology or personality type, or are they causing shorter attention spans and reduced productivity? Ubiquitous and wireless technology have created an ''Always On'' subculture that may have given rise to pseudo-attention deficit disorder or online compulsive disorder, according to doctors and psychchiatrists referenced in the article, but technology executives and some users argue that conclusion is dead wrong. It's a thought-provoking read and it may spur some Slashdotters to examine how reliant you have become on mobile phones, pagers, instant messaging, wireless networks, powerful computing and broadband Internet, or how entrenched these communications technologies are in your own lives.
So this explains my shift-reload addiction to Slashdot and other news sites?
Contribute to the online videogame encyclopedia: GamerWiki
Yeh, I've read that. It's just a bunch of "Just say no" crap. My outline sums it up without the anti-drug spin. It's much simpler than that. You can argue that addiction is a disease, virus, bacterial infection, genetic mutation, or whatever you want, but the bottom line is people like to do that which induces pleasure, and they don't like to do that which doesn't. Thus forms the habit. Those Harvard guys can "study" addiction all they want to try to "understand it" (read: justify their grants), but don't think for a second addiction is more complicated than fucking because it feels good.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
I'm a different Anon. Coward than the last guy!
It has also been shown that peer pressure has a lot to do with things, if you think about it...After sex what does a man or a woman do? Smoke a cigarette, why would a man smoke a cigarette right after he finished having sex? After that orgasm he wasn't under the influence of hormones anymore, and wasn't thinking about having more sex. His primal urges had been satisfied, and that completely disproves anything relating cigarette smoking to a desire for more sex.
A dot is not a hole, a dot is where something IS, rather than isn't. Slashdot, I would assume, has something to do with morse code, the slashes and the dots were what were used to transfer news and communication a long while back, and its catchy! If you were to blame the admin for choosing a sexual name for a website, you'd have to go back to old Morse himself and confront him about his own sexual issues, and if I'm not mistaken, he's more dead than a baked potato.
-Benny
Actually, I was wondering...Why does the first Anon. Talk about nothing but sex? You know...sex is only a big deal if you're not getting any, you know that right? Maybe your accuisations are just making up for your sex life, or lack there of.
I dropped out of school because of it. I would spend 3-4 hours checking slashdot and browsing the web at a time! After I post messages like this I somehow have to check them every few hours.
I saw a phsycologist who specializes in disabilities because my ADHD was alot worse and I began to show signs of lethargic-ness.( If there is such a word ). Nothing interested me anymore and I could not focus.
Eventually I unplugged from the net and went through withdrawl symptoms. I got a shitty job since I no longer was in school and the economy went into the crapper. I had trouble at first but my attention span improved.
You made a reference to white Castle (which has shitty burgers by the way) and food addiction. In some people who are severely depressed it can effect their lives and jobs just like Internet addiction. Some people are move vulnerable then others. But yes they can be serious depending on the individuals genetic makeup to dopamine overload. I come from a family who has a few alcoholics. In my case I am susceptible because of the way my brain is wired from my genes.
http://saveie6.com/
You put your left foot in,
you put your right foot out.
You put your left foot in,
then you....what was this about?
I reload Slashdot for that squirt of Euphoria, much like the dosage-button doses out morphine for people in the hospital.
More! More! More! More!
I think I have experianced this on a couple of occasions while surfing for pr0n.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
...and you know, love is like oxygen. You get too much, you get too high, not enough and you're gonna die.
The story goes that the pirate Pugg (who has a PhD) wants to collect all the information in the universe, and happens to have trapped the constructors. So, the constructors build him a machine containing a thermodynamic demon of the second kind, which filters true statements out of all the data created by some brownian motion (a demon of the first kind is simply Maxwell's demon). The pirate, who obviously suffers from information addiction, just starts reading the output and never stops, so the constructors are free to go!
If you haven't read the Cyberiad, you should give it a try. It's intelligent, beautifully written, and quite nerdy too.
Ceci n'est pas une sig
the MaxiMegalon Institute of Slowly and Painfully Working Out the Surprisingly Obvious
(Hithchikers Guide)
He rotated from electronic toy to toy much the way these executives do, but he couldn't even focus on the toy long enough to complete a task most of the time.
Perhaps the mind of a child is not suited to this type of activity? Perhaps this type of activity causes the above-mentioned ADD/ADHD effects? Perhaps the fscking mother who bore the kid is to blame for drowning him in an unsupervised, overstimulated environment? Get real. Take responsibility.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Go back to Usenet.
Also, I bet there's an information-access disorder analogous to anorexia -- people who avoid as much information as they can.
It's not that we're lazy....it's that we just don't care...
(I knew I could get an Office Space ref in here)
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
BTW--the word you're looking for is 'lethargy'. I'm sorry to hear that.
:) as well. I personally can *see* how my sometimes short attention span can take control and screw me up.
I fear the I may be mildly ADD (though not ADHD, as anyone who has met me will know, I'm anything but hyper.
OTOH, look at my vantage point. Since I'm able to control it, and sometimes even use it to my own benefit (when working, as someone on the ADHD story said, I, too, am able to call upon my 'inner spaz' so to speak to get major productivity benefit). A large percentage of the hacker/geek culture would probably meet the DSM-IV criteria for ADD and/or ADHD. Yet, it seems that most of us are able to function perfectly well in society.
Does this mean that we ALL have a disorder, or does it mean that this is just another one of the standard personality variations found in differing inviduals.
At what point is it a 'disorder' vs. a 'personality type'. Do you see what I'm getting at?
My journal has hot
[DUH!] Why the hell else would I be reading slashdot?
hahaha we found another smoker here
obviously this response came from a smoker.
well, i think the first anon. coward explains it pretty well: you smoke a cigarette after sex with a woman, freud gives you the answer why: because your repressed homosexual longing has not been satisfied.
Note that, unlike smokers, most people do not smoke a cigarette after having sex (they don't need to)
Is it just me, or does the medical seem bent on clasifying every human trait as a dissorder?
And needless to say, the Internet is a joy for me. I'll have multiple windows open, be chatting with a couple other people, doing various other things, and my attention is *completely* occupied. This isn't a lack of attention span - I'm doing more things simultaneously than anyone with an exclusive focus could dream of pulling off. This isn't a disease - it's a boon.
I suspect that in all these "information addict" examples, if they were to dig into their childhood and psychology, they'd find these people are naturally ADD. Or, as I prefer to put it, naturally able to multitask. God help them if the psychiatrists ever "cure" their "disease" - they'd lose one of the greatest skills they have.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Chocolate contains tryptophan, a seratonin precursor.
Seratonin is connected with depression, boosting it seems to make people happier.
My Journal
I see you post on slashdot a lot. The exact username is familiar/recognize it from posts (not because of who bill gates is). Hey you sound almost like me...
Take one day at a time. I beat it without meds and without everything. Step by step you can get your stuff back together. I found being overweight somehow led to half my anxiety which caused my attention problems.
Take it slow. You will beat this.
I question this whole ADD bullshit.
No, Im not a professional psychologist; but Im good at not buying BS.
One thing Ive noticed in life is that we lack people with interpersonal communication skills. But we have lots of people able to "focus". In fact, being able to focus is considered a major quality, while being able to change focus quickly is not.
The way I see, we should stimulate those people who can pay attention to several issues simultaneously. As I understand, this is a necessary quality for leaders.
Besides, specifically for a child, the world is all about novelty: you cant expect him/her to be focused. That would be a mature behaviour -- which is undesirable in kids!
Gimme a break... entire categories of professionals selling stupidity!
The bitch is in cleaning the dopamine squirt out of the keyboard.
The power of Christ compiles you!
Interesting to that the war on drugs goes after people who are not in the pharmacudacle industry. At the same time, the pharmacudacle industry is finding its own ways to push its legal drugs on the population.
"You have [insert disorder hear]. Take these drugs daily. Do not miss a hit, i mean dosage. Do not miss a dosage. You may feel strange at first. Don't worry, that'll go away once your body becomes dependent on it, I mean, gets used to it. It'll go away once your body gets used to it."
I agree there's a tendency to label personality types as disorders. I'm not saying there is no such thing as ADD/ADHD, but it's not as prevalent as some would think (IMHO).
Just as Billy Gates said, I can check Slashdot incessantly (along with several other *news* sites I frequent), if I don't check myself. I made it through engineering school with DSL & cable, but it wasn't without some very strong discipline. It also "helped" that I picked up another addiction - smoking (which I have now quit).
In the end, I think self control, discipline, and an organized schedule are the best ways to combat "info addiction."
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
I better turn my threshold down to -1 to read all about it!
I think the essential element that unites Star Wars, The Matrix, Lord Of The Rings and Harry Potter is that a nobody finds out that in fact they are really important. Luke, Neo, Frodo and Harry. No wonder that these films/books are such wet dreams for geeks.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
What's so new about this? I read about this years ago. I'd post it if I could remember where.
What I find amusing is the obsession of modern medical, particularly psychiatric/psychological, science with the term "disorder".
I don't know, but when I read about behavior that doesn't seem pathological, the "dis" seems out of place. Maybe they should be talking about "phenomenon", "behavior", or something like that.
This case in particular seems quite silly. They're saying these people have a disorder because they are multitaskers. I'm sure they'll have a disorder for single-taskers as well. Yet the only reason they seem to have to believe "they have a condition" is that "it's hard to concentrate on one thing". Wow. Now, that's pathological.
I've had the behavior discussed in the article. I have paid for a lot of college classes, seminars, conferences, etc. only to grow bored out of my mind and engaging into high-tech and low-tech "instant messaging", doodling on notebooks, etc. When I was smart or lucky enough to bring a totally unrelated book, my ADD was suddenly cured because I ended up reading for a couple of hours.
It's not called ADD. It's called being bored. And if you're constantly being bored by what you do, it usually is because whatever you're doing is boring to you. Just because you don't find your current task enthralling doesn't mean you cannot pay attention at all.
Go do something else. Switch careers. Get a hobby.
If they come up with a battery of tests proving these people are completely unable to pay attention more than X seconds/minutes to anything, including human-to-human threads of conversation, I'll start believing there is meat to this. But there is no such thing.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
Forget Ecstasy; they'll all be taking:
Edible Information (tm)
For when you really do have to swallow an encyclopedia
This will, of course, lead to an increase in powers for the Information Police who will be entasked to curb such hedonism.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
n/t
that upon heading over to the nytimes article, I got this message in a pear tree^W^Wpopup window.
Oh No! You mean /. is my Sugar Daddy? Sheeeet!
;-)
Anyone else get the visual of Cowboy Neal in a Pimp hat? Evil, ain't it
This sounds like another research team desperate to get some grant money. Even if we assume that their theory is correct, I believe it is counterproductive to lead people to believe that they have a disease in the traditional sense, since they would probably then be less likely to assume personal responsibility for their condition. Also, I would rather not pay higher insurance premiums to cover medication and physician visits for some gadget-lover that can't put his PDA down.
(Say it John Stossel, "GIVE ME A BREAK!")
A large percentage of the hacker/geek culture would probably meet the DSM-IV criteria for ADD and/or ADHD.
More like a large percentage of the entire population of the world.
The criteria are so vague, it gives the parents what they want; an excuse to drug their kids.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
There are only two industries that call their customers "users".
Is just something so someone can PADD their wallets a bit more.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
Surely the important point of the article is " may spend 50 percent more time on those tasks than if they work on them separately, completing one before starting the other." So we all need to learn hown to compartmentalize our time. Having said that I now have 2 PC running and I don't know how mant browsers open.
Semper ubi sub ubi
You know,
.
... the time passes quickly as you get older and older . . .
a lot of stuff in life is just boring crap,
truly pointless bunk.
So I would think ignoring pointless crap is actually healthy, not a 'disorder.'
For God sake, if you enjoy working in a dead end job with no future - that might be a disorder, unless you simply don't need more money, and just enjoy your free time...
Instead of the medical community approach of forcing people to 'adjust', to 'conform', perhaps a trip to the park, painting, helping in the local food bank, going to church, volunteering to pick up trash off the roadside, anything new and different - that is real therapy.
I call it reality therapy.
Learn a new skill like driving a stick shift, or rollerblading, or how to operate a stamp metal press as a machinist, bake your own bread, build a bookcase, anything . .
I am of the opinion that a lot of people think their life is dull and boring, or kinda sucks. I believe they are right, and should acknowledge those feelings.
They can do something to help others and help themselves - that really can create feelings of happiness, Joyful feelings, wholeness, and purpose - even from helping clean the highway or set up chairs at the church cook out...
Drugging up your brain cells is not the answer -
seeking to find your own joyful purpose in the service of others and in the service of your own needs,
that is purposeful and joyful.
Most religions point out that whole - purpose in life and vocation thing, etc...
Another factor is that a lot of us live longer,
if you get bored doing the same thing for years, well - you are most likely going to live to be around 70 years old or older, so go ahead - find something new
So Live, Live Well, and be excellent to one another!
White Castle you can always go for the Krystals
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Need INPUT!! Input!!
Funny I coined that term on friday, July 4 while working in the repair center at the local phone company. Sitting there wishing like hell the day would end, when some less insightful induhvidual calls in to complain about his dialup connect speed. I thought "Get the hell out of the house you idiot! Go to the park, eat a picnic, see the fireworks! Live your life directly instead of through the little glass screen!"
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
No, an "excuse" to say it isn't their fault.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Yep. Same here. I reread my messages to see how clever I am. I reread my messages to see how much Karma I've gained. I rehash some of my old messages in my mind when I'm offline.
I know this sounds pathetic, but this is an ego thing for me.
Do a web search on Asperger's Syndrome. There was a Slashdot article on it recently as well as a Wired story from a few years back.
I call bullshit on this one. Sorry, but I think you are either exagerating are are a liar. I don't know were you got you're so called stats from but they are all wrong. If you were truely an Addict, which I doubt, then you are very lucky indead, to acheive sobriaty without support.
Can't fathom that someone is able to do something for themselves, eh? I got news for ya, pal - I'm dead serious. I ain't exaggerating, nor am I lying. And don't claim to be 'sorry' while insulting my person in the same sentence. As you said, drug usage can be a life and death matter -- in my case, it was that at worst, and at best contrast between darkness and pain, and a shot at a healthy contented existence at the other. So you can see the stakes were high enough for me to act. And luck had shit to do with it. I chose to act to better my lot, OK? I had all the so called 'support' in the world, it meant nothing. What am I supposed to do, call up my highly-uncredentialed counselor or AA kid sponsor when I get a "craving" and "talk it out"? I want to drive this point home. No one else quits for you. You can BS all day long to your 'support group' and sponsor, and family, and program, and group, and talk the ins and outs of successful sobriety and techniques -- but at the end of the day, when you come home from that BS, if you really want a toke or a drink, you are either going to do give in, or you have decided yourself and have the strength to resist for yourself. As for your definition of addict, whatever. I'd qualify any definition I could possibly think of -- daily use, drug abuse, rehabs, ODs, institutionalizations, you get the picture. On top of that, I had recovery zealots like yourself tell me OVER and OVER I'm an addict. I did everything short of shooting up H or snorting coke, which is pretty much just an image and not as terrible as certain groups would have you believe. Yeah, so if you're ready, take a look at my recent post on this matter on kuro5hin.org. If you'd like additional details, I'd be happy to oblige.
It's quite telling how militant you are about this that you're resorting to personal insults. Well, I may not be any Darryl Strawberry, but I've been around the block. And I'm not going to discount AA's benefits because although I know the program is difficult, you can reap benefits. I've done it. But don't buy into the idea that it's necessary and the only way. It sure as hell ain't. And AAers aren't the voice of God. And some people don't believe in God, or want to change his life and remove all their 'character flaws,' which are poorly defined, or replace their ideas to those of the group. (And I have had some odd experiences and advice from AA but that's another post). Hell, some might even be willing to for temporary or permanent relief from their drug abuse ("we decided we wanted what AA has and were willing to go to any lengths to get it"), but they should NOT be led to believe it is the only choice, as AA says it is if you are a "true" alcoholic or addict.
As for the stats -- what can I say, it's reality. If you can't accept that your treatment model isn't the most effective method out there, that's one thing, but don't go telling others that they may or may not be responsible for people's deaths when their ideas have been shown to be more effective. Now, back to those stats. The one I gave you is true. My rehab told us it has a 3.5% success rate. People are more likely to quit drugs successfully without treatment that has its basis in dubious scientific theories. My experience backs this up (add a notch to the stats). IMO, probably because it's a personal, life choice that they're capable of making on their own. In addition, 30% of people who have smoked in the United States have quit, 95% did it by themselves. AA has a 5% success rate for those who pass through its doors. At my meetings I saw maybe three or four faces out of a room of 20-4
-DAVEO
Yeah, when you have an idle moment in the airport and you start reading the ingredient list on the granola bar because suddenly you care, then you know that the pursuit of data has passed beyond the rational and entered the, yes, that's right, addictive.
Or maybe you're just sitting at the airport doing nothing and you got bored. Entertainment/enjoyment does not mean addiction. I'm sure if one were in airport with nothing better to do, a lot of people would casually read a granola wrapper.
Addiction does not exist.
:-)
So, are you really that obtuse, or did you quit something and feel self-righteous over it?
As a smoker, quite possibly the WORST addiction (not in terms of symptoms, but effectiveness), I must reply: bullshit.
Habits can be broken by choice - when you don't break them, it's because, on balance, you'd simply prefer not to.
I'm leaning towards obtuse now. When a person is addicted to doesn't mean that you are seemingly driven to do something, it means that for some reason, you lose the ability to choose not to do it. Not even considering the horrors of narcotics, ask someone who smokes to quit. You won't get some manic answer, or a person who really wants to but can't. What you'll get is an excuse. As a smoker, my sense of judgement is so messed up regarding cigarettes that I always find a reason. "I'm depressed, I can't." "I will... right after this pack." "I'll just cut back a little." "I can't, I'm addicted."
You're damn right, habits can be broken by choice, and that if one doesn't, they simply prefer not to. That's an addiction, when a person illogically prefers not to stop.
My reason not to stop, especially given that I appear to understand why I smoke and still do? Well, I would, except then I'd have to change my sig.
That's old news. Marketers and advertising execs have known for years that a sensory overload of information can entice people.
So what happens when it stops feeling good, which it inevitably does, and the person still can't stop? You're saying it's a reinforcement pattern, but once it starts feeling bad, the behavior should stop. That rarely happens, because it is not as simple as you make it. Normally there are several factors that lead into addiction, including genetics, history of trauma and depression, and organic disorders.
I would agree wholeheartedly that the factors you cite are important in determining the strength and duration of an addiction, but you neglect to consider social and environmental factors, upbringing, and perhaps even more importantly personal values and experience. Lastly, regardless of all the factors you cite, enough pain, and enough cumulative damage can without a motherfucking doubt cause a person to say "enough is enough" and quit their drug of choice. I offer myself as an example. Nearly all or all the risk factors you cited have been attributed to me by so-called treatment professionals, but in my history with treatment, nothing worked. I finally cut the crap and realized treatment and intermittent usage was not what I wanted for myself, and no one would quit drugs but me. So I ditched the treatment and the drugs, voila.
-DAVEO
Sorry man, but in the business, this is what is known as anecdotal evidence. I think you know what that is good for. The real stats say about 10% of people who self report as addicted maintain sobriety, and it's about the same for EVERY kind of treatment, including cold turkey.
I've been trying to tell people this for years.
Do they listen.
Nooooo.
Bibliophiles unite! W00t!
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Just as narcotics are addictive, information is as well.
/.
Last week, just for shits, I added the following entry to my hosts file:
127.0.0.1 slashdot.org www.slashdot.org
since I suspected I was spending too much time surfing the "dot"... I was SHOCKED at how many times per day I got "Page could not be displayed" or similar....
It was really, truly, sincerely, surprising how many times a day it'd become habit to hit
Laugh if you want to, but even in this era of "disorders" there is certainly an issue of addiction..
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
I hear you and I completely agree with that article. Many years ago I read about video games affecting children's attention spans as they grow older. While most shot the idea down as a non-supportable (did i just make a word?) one, it definitely makes sense. When I watch my nephews, they run around their house and can concetrate on something for a little while, and then they sit down and play video games. If you turn off the system while they're playing, they can't think. If you ask them to add 2 and 5, it's almost like they don't hear you and just solemnly chant 'video games' instead over and over. I really do believe their concentration will always be affected when they're older. But I know I have a short attention span, and I didn't play a load of games as a kid, but I had my own computer since I was 4(a sweet 286 with two double A's for a CMOS battery). When I sit on my computer, I feel like I am entering another world. And then I get out of reality and forget why I got on the computer in the first place for. I am definitely going to spend less time on a PC from now on I've decided. I think being away at college will help change that too (yay for college). But if you ask me, work related tasks such as monitoring networks and things like that is completely unrelated. Life is reality. Computers and the 1's and 0's in a hard drive is virtual. Hey, look! I see a bird!
(\_/)
(O.o) This is Bunny. (> <)
That about sums it up for me. Got interested in science at age 3, and I've had ADD ever since. Tourette's too. But hey, I've learned so much about everything (I have several math trophies, know over a dozen programming languages, etc) that it's almost worth it, except for the fact that I can't pay attention no matter how hard I try, I have a mild, everlasting headache, my speaking skills rival those of a first grader, and I'm still a virgin.
A study in the 1991 New England Journal of Medicine reported that groups of employees instructed to attend a program in a private hospital had a 36 percent sobriety rate through two years, while a group instructed to attend Alcoholics Anonymous had a 16 percent success rate through the same space.
A study by the same journal in 1985 reported that of patients in treated in a public inner-city alcoholism ward, seven percent were sober or had their alcoholism in remission upon followup some years later.
Vaillant, in The Natural History of Alcoholism found that the majority of those who had a history of alcohol abuse in his sample were in remission, with the remission of very few being due to treatment. He found that the state of the sampled hospital patients' alcohol abuse problem was no better than at any point in their history.
On 17,500 arrests recorded for Cantonese residents of New York City in 1933-1949, not one listed public drunkenness, according to M.L. Barnett's "Alcoholism in the Cantonese of New York City: An anthropological study". Jews have historically ritually used moderate amounts of alcohol in ceremonies, but abuse has been exceedingly rare. Vaillant, in Adaptation to Life, 1977, took samples of inner city residents of Irish and Mediterranean descent; the Irish had rates of alcoholism seven times as high as the Mediterranean (which included Greeks and Jews). Glassner and Berg reported in How Jews Avoid Alcohol Problems in 1980 that out of 88 upstate New York Jewish respondants, including both Orthodox and nonobservers, there was no existence of alcoholism. They estimate alcohol abuse to be present in between 0.1% and 1% of the American Jewish population of the time. This strongly suggests a large cultural component to alcohol abuse and by extension drug abuse and tendency to control and moderate usage of substances.
J.E. Helzer, and G.J. Canino, in Alcoholism in North America, Europe, and Asia report astounding differences in alcoholism rates between two Asian cultures with similar biology -- "The highest lifetime prevalence rates were found in U.S. native Mexican Americans at 23 percent and in the Korean survey, where the total sample rate was about 22 percent. There is about a fiftyfold difference in lifetime prevalence between these two samples and Shanghai, where the lowest lifetime prevalence of 0.45 percent was found."
Stanton Peele of the Lindesmith center in a study titled "Utilizing Culture and Behaviour in Epidemiological Models of Alcohol Consumption and Consequences for Western Nations" points out that while the country of Portugal consumes 2 1/2 times the amount of alcohol per capita they do in Iceland, the former has 800 AA groups per million, while the latter has 0.6 per million, drawing from data published by AA World Headquarters in 1991.
W.J. Rorabaugh, in The Alcoholic Republic: An American Tradition demonstrates that alcohol usage trends has fluctuated to and from abuse throughout American history with culture -- In the late seventeenth century the Rev. Increase Mather had taught that drink was `a good creature of God' and that a man should partake of God's gift without wasting or abusing it. His only admonition was that a man must not `drink a Cup of Wine more than is good for him'.... At that time inebriation was not associated with violence or crime; only rowdy, belligerent inebriation in public places was frowned upon.... Control was also exercised through informal channels. One Massachusetts minister insisted that a public house be located next to his own dwelling so he could monitor tavern traffic through his study window. If he observed a man frequenting the place too often, the clergyman could go next door and escort the drinker home."
Levine, in "The Good Creature of God and the Demon
-DAVEO
It isn't their fault. Why do they need an "excuse" to say that?
I tend to watch news from when i wake up, in the office all day, and when i get home. I'm fascinated by data of all types, I surf the net ~4 hours a day average. I'm constantly seeking out information, searching, refining, finding new ways to procure that information. I call people to find out who to ask about what to look for to find that information. And the best part is, I get paid to.
This really seems to be a problem within the field of psychology today. The current trend seems to lean towards conformity, anything that veers from the path must be "stamped out" - we must all be good little worker ants. Of course, much of this research is funded by the uber drug companies that stand to reap enormous profits from new "disorders". Witness the massive rise in use of the anti-depressents such as Prozac, Paxil, et. al.
Without curiosity, an individual is unable to adapt as rapidly. While the lack of the ability to adapt and lack of curiosity may suit some corporate managers as desirable traits for their employees. It is a fact that many of the greatest achievements, both from a scientific as well as an artistic standpoint, came from individuals who might today be labelled as suffering from "disorder", and stifled from achieving greatness through prescription meds.
I believe that it is in everyone's best interest to look outside their everyday lives, to be curious and to ask questions. It is only through looking for the "big picture" that we can truly achieve great things. These researchers are small-minded conformist puds. It wouldn't surprise me if their funding wasn't recieved from one of the mega-corps drug companies I mentioned earlier (either that or they could be bucking for some sort of research money from one of the companies).
Clearly, therefore, the government must now engage in a "War on Information", and make sure the population at large has as little information as possible. It's for their own good! Wouldn't want the voters getting all informed and information-addicted, now, would we?
That pretty much describes me.
I study 101 different subjects at a time, and remember most of what I learn. However, because I thrive on new subjects and variety I end up knowing lots about lots of subjects, but I'm not really an expert in any of them.
I can write a compiler, an operating system, a debugger, fix a car, write press releases, illustrate, do all of my own accounts, defend myself in a court of law.. yet I am almost unemployable by normal benchmarks because I can't say.. "OK, I'm the absolute best at doing X."
But as I've learnt, there are a lot of us 'generalists' about, and we tend to do better being self-employed or as consultants in our various fields.. and I'm doing okay. I am not sure if this is some sort of mental flaw, or just an aspect of my personality. I get bored easily.. and why shouldn't I?
It's called Mentat training.
It seems as though this disucussion has become more about ADD than anything... perhaps that is good because then more people might attempt to truly understand the nature of that disorder. I would agree that ADD is probably overdiagnosed but that in no way means that this is not a true disorder from which people suffer. It becomes a disorder rather than a personality issue when it cannot be controlled no matter how badly someone wants to. It is not entirely a matter of boredom although I believe it exacerbates the condition... it is the inability to focus. Anyone who knows or lives with someone who truly has this disorder understands the reality of it and the frustration it can create. Do yourselves a service and educate yourselves on a topic before mindlessly spouting off on things solely based on opinion rather than fact.
new guy: Hi, my name is Dave. I am a Slashdot addict too. But I just visit because everyone there is obsessed with me.
Facilitator: What do you mean?
Dave: Let me show you... [Dave gets up, drops pants, turns around, bends over, and grabs two handfuls]
[The facilitator vomits while the rest of the group cheers]
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I tend to define addiction very narrowly and confine it to substances, i.e. the user experiences physical cravings for the substance and prolonged abstinence results in physical withdrawal. I feel like the application of addicition to a whole class of behaviors dilutes the term to the point of meaninglessness and is far too easily exploited with political motivations.
BUT... of course at the heart of it we've come to the old mind-body division issue. When you start getting into dopamine squirts and such the line between a behavior and a chemical condition of the mind blurs. It gets messy. Personally I think the term "compulsive" covers the territory of behaviors a lot better than "addiction."
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
Its all in how you feel about what you are learning.
Thank you for making that clear to everyone, though I doubt your statement's usefulness on an audience who doesn't already understand this concept. It's like when you're trying to instruct your little brother or clueless friend on how to impress a girl, and he turns to you and asks "why?" instead of "good idea!", your point is kind of a lost cause to begin with.
Just goes to show you what kind of brainwa...^H^H^H^H^H^H^H training we're adopting that doesn't promote people to analyze things from different perspectives, take interest in things intrinsicly. More and more what I see these days is people doing things for goals that are at the end, irrespective, irresponsibly, and irrelevant to what the means are.
More to the point of the article, without grasping the meaning and relevance, we develop an artificial gap in what we comprehend to be of real interest and that which is absorbed for it's usefullness as a means to something else (money comes to mind). But we can't force people to be one way or another, so is this cause lost?
Education will forever be in a downslide due to inherent designs in how we teach, select and import our teachers, methods and material, regardless (and in some cases because) of how many reforms and changes we put our schools through.
It's not only how, but who and what and why as well.
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
Hmm, I'm female and I seem to be profoundly missing that ability! ;-)
I have to finish one thought/project before moving on to the next one, or for long-term projects, I have to separate the time of day that I work on more than one of them.
;-)
As I type, the guy next to me has like 8 terminals open on each of 4 desktops and hops between email, server config, etc, etc, etc. =P
I don't buy this male/female crap. I think multitasking has more to do with environmental stimuli than some kind of inborn skill.
Just my $0.02
-=[You cannot consistently judge this statement to be true.]=-
So does this mean I can sue media giants like Time Warner and NBC for my addiction to information? Where is my check?
The problem is trying to grab all sorts of information and not being able to discern what is likely to be useful in a work or social context.
A land rush rather than persistent related lines of inquiry.
What can one be a socially acceptable Aspergers like 'little expert' on at the age of over 21?
Ignore me, I am a manic depressive.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
My brother just went into the woods for 2 weeks with friends...he said the hardest thing was the lack of info.
AA/NA bring three thing to the table in a persons plan for recovery. All of which can be provided by other means.
1. Structur and pattern. I covered this already but I might add this. For an Alcoholic, going to an AA meeting is probably safer then going to the Bar. When a Alcoholic has a regular pattern of hitting the pub everyday after work, what is he going to do when he decides to get sober? A lot of recovery involves substitution.
2. Interaction with other people who have a greater chance at understanding because they are going through, or have gone through the same thing. The ability of any particular NA or AA group to provide this is incredibly variable. If one can not find individuals to interact with outside the meeting, then the meeting is pretty useless. The range of people who are addicts is huge. The range in the character of NA/AA groups is likewise huge. It sometimes takes some shoping around to find the right meeting, sometimes one will not be found.
3. The 12 Steps. Personly I prefer the NA version because it makes it clearer that Addiction is my problem, not societies, not my spouces, not my childhoods. Therefor it is up to me to get sober. The 12 steps are just a formalized guideline. I can get the same thing out of the Bible and a good plan for Christian development. I have not read the Koran, but I imaging that the same ideas can be found there. They are also expressed powerully in Buhdist thought.
To sum things up:
Can NA/AA meetings be usefull in a plan to recovery? Yes
Is NA/AA all one need to get sober? No
Can sobriety be achieved without NA/AA? Yes
Can NA/AA hinder recovery? Unfortunatly sometimes yes
What applies for the individual, applies to the synergistic combination of those individuals. You have probably heard in reference to Addicts, "Some are sicker then others". In the same way, it can be said of NA/AA meetings, "Some are more messed up then others". Meetings are just a tool, one of many that can help. NA/AA is not the end all be all of recovery, but it sure works better then willpower alone. Those who espose sobriaty through willpower are deluding themselves and everyone attracted to the notion. It is specificly this notion that I find dangerous. Refer to my other post for clarification on willpower and the addicted mind.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste?
I had a discussion about world problems with a fairly intelligent person last month. He feels that education, is the key to solving all our planet's problems. I would have to agree if it includes all manner of education. This includes home, school, media, etc. Basically anything that a person interacts with in the first 10 years of life is education. Ofcourse it continues beyond that point and there is no cutoff but a gradual phasing and a larger emphasis in learning behavior/attitude as opposed to just learning.
I had originally thought that humans were absolutely doomed due to what boiled down to attitudes that suck. After this discussion, I am ambivalent now on whether humanity can be salvaged, since sucky attitude is largely dependant on key factors in your environment, especially when growing up, and especially behavior you acquire through mimicry. However, there are 2 large conditions in current state of affairs that work against us to promote the resolution.
[1] The Chicken and The Egg. The current environment sucks. How do we bring up the next generation if children are exposed to and influenced by current suckage? Live on a remote island?
[2] The Yin and The Yang. Inherently in the design of success is the design of failure. Greed provides the carrot by which success is promoted. Through greed comes jelousy. Through jealosy comes suck attitudes.
To your point, I don't think they've given up. I think they've learned that its easier to get what they want through cheating, bypassing, or by force. How can we expect them to live up to higher standards when all around them are messages of how to get rich quick, lose pounds quick, scandals, payoffs, misjudgements, and crooks that walk away with a slap on the wrist?
Ever heard of cliff-notes? Think they'd get away with it if their advertising slogan was "When you don't want to do all the reading and work but want to pass the exam"?
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
I am sorry for your misfortune. I understand that this is a heated topics.
[Re: Addiction] I take minor issue with your statement that addiction happens after a few uses.
I take major issue with your assertion that the idea that the alteration of any biochemical processes by a drug either constitutions some 'addiction' that one cannot beat out without without professional or divine help, as well as the idea of an once an addict, always an addict ("addicts were never 'normal'").
Dr. Stanton Pelle points out on his website that different societies have different rates of addiction to the same drug. He also reports that "Genetically related groups in different societies vary in their addiction rates, and the susceptibility of the same individual changes over time."
This suggests and extremely strong cultural component to addictive behavior in addiction to any biological tendency present.
Some societies that have used alcohol ceremonially have avoided abuse -- for example
Steele cites evidence that shows how the rates of addiction and discontinuation of heroin fluctuate with pressures at varying stages in a person's life:
-DAVEO
I made a post in another portion of this thread. It was in responce to your post were you called me a Jack-ass. I can't figure out why you wold do that. Jack-asses have their problems, but on a whole are pretty cool creatures. I apologize again for my overly agressive tone, and thank you for taking the effort to bring the discusion back to a more constructive mode.
Please read that post. I got a laugh when I read:
It is one method of sobriety and recovery, not the end-all-be-all
For now I have other things to take care of, despite the addictive nature of /.ing.
Whoever said people are not responsible for what they do? Nobody said free will wasn't part of the factor, as a society, we find punishment for crimes to be the way we want to deal with those who break our rules.
And.. news flash... we DO know a great deal about the causes, biochemical and otherwise, of violent tendencies, and so on.. and we don't use them as an excuse for crimes. Yes, some lawyers try.. but saying that in one respect we understand the cause of something does not alleviate someone from responsibility for themselves.
And truthfully... do you think punishment is the solution for crimes? If we actually, in some magical land, KNEW the root cause of everything, that would also imply we could prevent or control what happens to a degree we woudn't NEED to punish people, because there would be no crime.. or if there were crime, we would simply take the person and reprogram them. But we aren't there, and nobody's saying we're going to be, either.
All I was saying is that psychological definitions often are taken out of context by joe average.. they see "Paranoia" and think "Oh great, now they think I'm paranoid" when really, they are just words in the doctor's vocabulary for dealing with human behavior.
I agree, blaming things on medical conditions, as is increasinglly common, is a bad thing, and we turn to drugs and other treatments far too easily.. but is it wrong to explain to someone why they are the way they are? the mistake is telling them the drugs are the only cure.
If someone had explained to me at a younger age that my brain chemistry was slightly differnet than others, and that it caused me to have a shorter attention span, and that I'd have to consider concentration a very important thing to work on... I would have DONE it. Instead, they just bitched at me like I was a misbehaved kid... but hey the work was easy, so who cares. What's better, for the kid to understand that he DOES have a handicap, in a manner of speaking, something he has to deal with.. or to stand there and call him lazy or irresponsible. You tell me.
It takes more then desire, to shake the shakels of addiction.
Sorry, but I think you are either exagerating are are a liar.
You stopped short of outright calling me a liar because I have quit drugs entirely without the program you hold so dear. Well I did it, bub, read my accounts of the experience, and either call me a liar outright, or concede that you're wrong.
The only difference is that people are dying right now believing they can get sober on will power.
This thinking KILLS people. It is a serious matter. In fact Julian Morrison is practising quakery. If someone convinced some people that their mirical wonder drug cured cancer, and those people died because they did not seak real treatment, that person would be in jail. Julian Morrisons bullshit is the SAME thing.
You replied and said more or less that one poster is misleading people, is responsible for their deaths, and deserves to be imprisoned because he dares speak out against your treatment program that shows very tenuous success rates.
These, my friend, and some of your other remarks are the claims of a jack ass. You will not be called otherwise for these borderline slanderous attacks on the person of those engaging in legitimate discussion, and you certainly gain no credibility from them.
Well, I showed you the goods. Not only do people get sober without AA or today's shoddily put together and unfounded 'treatment plans,' but they sometimes do so in higher numbers than those who seek others to help them. In this respect, your prior claims, and the common AA mantra that leaving the program is signing your death warrant, sound more than the self-help people, to use your words, like a "sunday televagelist", (I'll tell you what to do with your life, trust me; Jesus & Holy Spirit remarks), "mirical wonder drug cured cancer" (Just ask God), "Crystal Power, magnetic braclets" (Some guy in the sky will cure all your ills), whereas we advocate stopping use of a drug to quit it. Hardly anything magical about that. So you'd be wise to leave these terms out of the discussion and keep it to fact.
The only difference is that people are dying right now believing they can get sober on will power.
I've already demonstrated that people can break addictions of their own volition, on their own time. I've done it myself. Your claim that this is impossible is wholly unsubstantiated and contrary to evidence, and your claim that trying to do so kills people is grossly out of whack -- if the data hold true, by your logic, AA and treatment centers are to be held resposible for deaths.
Later on, you state:
Can sobriety be achieved without NA/AA? Yes
I will assume if you are being consistent with your previous claims, you see treatment as the only alternative, not willpower and discipline. This is just as false, as the data and experience prove.
If sobriaty was just a matter of will power then a lot more people would be getting sober. What you are saying is that ships should not carry life boats, because people can just swim to shore. Then using the example of a ship goining down where one man does actualy swim to shore, without mention the several hunder who drowned because they were not trained open ocean swimmers.
Again, you say it is impossible to break addiction of one's own volition, when I'm sitting here and telling you I've done it. Many others have as well. That's the reality, AA isn't necessary for all but a few.
I have provided a detailed account of how I got sober, comp
-DAVEO
I was agreeing with your assesment of me acting like a jack-ass, I thought it a bit unfair to donkeys.
Noted. I'd like to know if you still believe it's impossible to get sober without AA, or whether it's all delusion and the like. It seems you've come to see things from a more moderate vantage point.
As far as structure, which I did not address in my reply, I think it would be good for myself in my life as far as programming and study habits to go for improving my productivity and goals, but not as far as drugs, never mind any treatment that uses 'structure' to acheive its own self-imposed ends regardless of what the patient wants. IMO, I'm going to have to learn to provide the structure largely for myself, with external demands (school, time schedules) being a heavy influence.
-DAVEO
Who says it inevitably stops feeling good? You might build up a tolerance so you need more and more, but I'm quite sure shooting heroin doesn't inevitably start to hurt (not because I know first-hand, mind you).
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
Please, please don't type cast me as one of those AA zelots. I am not one, but you keep interpreting my posts as if I am.
Contary to AA propaganda, relapse is probably a normal part of recovery. It is however, dangerous and potentialy deadly. Relapse often involves a greater expresion of addiction then befor. That was the case for me. Hey everythings got risks.
When I finaly got hold of my sences, I made the desicion to get sober. It was an expression of will. I also made the choice to do what was needed to get sober. I had an amasing momentary crack in my will power that set me back exactly 4 weeks. I again made the desision to do some. I put all the will I could muster into that decision. Please note, my mental faculties were barely functioning at all. Despite this I was willing to anything to get sober. Notice the words I was using, I, will, desicion. I completely agree that sobriaty is impossible without the will to get sober. AA even preaches this. But I did not do it all on willpower alone.
I also took action. The treatment I had did not work directly, but it did provide me with the information to formulate, with some friends of mine ( as I said, my brain was not working correctl), a plan. It was my plan, not my friends. My earlier post explains how I used NA. It was as a temporary band aid solution. I would not have used these meetings even for this if it was not for the fact that they were also attended by a couple of other addicts that not only had simular experiences to mine but had simular interest outside of NA.
Sobriaty is achieved through a process. Going through that process involves willpower. It helps to have the support of friends, but that is not essential. NA/AA can be a part of that process, as can Church or anything else that is helpfull. People are different, they need different things. But will power without a process, i.e. just say no, usually fails.
Every single one of my post centers around my objection to two notions. The notion that a newly abstaining former meth smoker should be able to sit in a room with meth being smoked and resist smoking themselves, and if they don't resist, then they just did not whan't to quit bad enough so fuck um. And that what applies to sever habitual users applies to addictive users also. BTW, AA is to blame big time for this misconception.
If you run a stopsign placing your vehicle where it's not supposed to be, and I run into you, being where I *am* supposed to be according to the rules of the road we all agree to adhere to, I am not "involved in a crime". The crime was when you ran the light. The part where I smash into you is called an accident.
You are saying IF we can explain deviant behavior, even in part... but we CAN, it's not some fantasy... we know nature and nurture causes of many types of violent personalities. We know that some types of behavior are linked genetically. We also know that none of these elimenate people's free will.. people can still get to know themselves and find ways to exist in society.
If we take someone who we know is violent, and we accept that it's in a large degree, say, due to their upbringing as a young child, and genetic predisposition... we can say "Yes, we understnad that you have a tendency to be violent, and that it's harder for you to control rage than for the average person." We can understand, and society should provide mechanisms to help that person live a normal life and coexist with others, if that's their wish.
If, for whatever reason they can't get along.. what do we do? We don't just say "Oh well, it's okay to beat the shit out of people because it's genetic".. that's absurd... and won't happen.
Yeah, we are seeing more and more court cases where someone's upbringing or genetics are used as a defence against their actions.. but those should really only come into play when it comes to sentencing, or preferably in the future, treatment, or both.
I do see where you are going with it. Even now people are not responsible, and like to blame everything on something external.. it seems like it's a vicious cycle.. everyone is always blaming someone else, so that means everyone is always getting blamed for something, so they need excuses, etcetera. If people would just admit that accidents happen, shit happens, and that they were wrong once in a while, the world would be a better place.
That is exactly what I have. I am supprised you guessed it so easily.
However ADD is not specifically part of aspergers. I have it as well as mild autism in the form of odd social skills and strange interests and obsessions. So I probably have one of the many forms of autism that are undiagnosed. Recent studies show that many causes could form the basis of autistic symptoms including a genetic flaw that inhabits the proper metabolization of minerals, to heavy metal poisoning, to even Candid yeast overgrowth. Some have claimed to be even cured after yeast overgrowth medication. These children never had autism but the toxins produced provided autistic like behavior. Interesting indeed.
http://saveie6.com/
Off the top of my head, you stated either explicitly or behind insults at people (myself included) that AA is the only way to get sober. If you admit to having exercised poor judgement in using insults, that's one thing, but suddenly your viewpoint has changed? You DID state it was physically impossible to quit drugs and drug addiction of one's own volition (purely on "willpower" you said), that one probably needs AA, and at the LEAST one needs treatment. So you're completely misrepresenting your earlier statements and therefore changing the whole dynamic of the debate without even debating.
I'll continue to reply to this thread if you try to maintain some consistency, or at least explain inconsistencies, 'cause if you don't it makes it impossible for me to see what I'm trying to debate, and if you don't ignore 90% of my post, cuz that just makes this whole thread absurd and pointless.
Later.
-DAVEO
I have not change my view point, I have just calmed down, and am expressing myself better. I tend to be a bit excitable at times.
Structure is one of things I ususaly try to maintain. I fact, I had extencive plans to maintain structure once I learned I was to be layed off.
Take as long as you need.
-DAVEO