He is a jerk. He is fascinated with death. His latest book is about Pat Tillman - and he is throwing a snit because the publisher wants to edit more than Krakauer wants.
NO CLIMBER THAT I KNOW THINKS ANYTHING OF Krakauer.
You want to read about the Eiger - from my library:
Hiebler, Toni, NORTH FACE IN WINTER, Barrie & Rockcliff, London, 1962; Lippincott, Philadelphia, 1963. An account of the first winter ascent of the north Face. Gillman, Peter; Haston, Dougal, EIGER DIRECT, Collins, London, 1966; DIRETTISSIMA, THE EIGER ASSAULT, Harper & Row, New York, 1966. An account of the first ascent of the Harlin Route on the north face. (The book by the German team on the climb is entitled EIGER, KAMPF um die DIRETTISSIMA, Chr. Belser Verlag, Stuttgart, 1966.)
It is a tragedy. No post was done - but all of the initial symptoms were HAPE and the storm prevented her from being carried down.
Ultimately, when the body is as massively compromised as hers' was - one or more organ systems fail. HAPE seriously impaired respiration and that interfered with primary metabolic functions across the entire body. Throwing a clot or simply not having enough O2 to supply the pump is well within the realm of sequale from HAPE -induced hypoxia on top of the reduced partial pressure of O2 at altitude.
There is an old saying - the body can recover from one major organ system pathology and sometimes two (in ICU) but not three.
It is a, as I said, a "per capita" or per participant ratio. It doesn't matter that 10,000 climbers are dwarfed by 25,000,000 football players if, taken as a whole, the gross injury rates for football are well above climbing.
It also takes a different kind of person to climb - one who enjoys the personal challenge and can quit if the route becomes too dangerous. The object of climbing is to climb - and mountaineering is to make the summit and return.
Football is a contact sport where equipment is used to limit or protect against injuries in the ordinary course and scope of play. Climbers usually have a helmet as the sole "protective" gear aside from ropes, harnesses and appropriate clothing for the conditions.
There is a theory - if you didn't fall - you didn't need the rope.
And, indeed, people have "free climbed" (no direct aid, but roped) the nose route and the Salanthe Wall of El Capitan with an 80% success rate, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Capitan
Elmes M, Barry D. Deliverance, Denial and the death zone: a study of narcissism and regression in the May 1996 Everest climbing disaster. J of Applied Behavioural Science. 1999;35:163â"87. Mountain survivor was first to fall. The Press (newspaper), Christchurch, New Zealand. April 15, 2004. The Climber. Saxon Print, Christchurch, New Zealand. Issue 47/Autumn; 2002: p13. Malcolm M. Mountaineering fatalities in Mt Cook National Park. N Z Med J. 2001;114:78â"80. Pollard A, Clarke C. Deaths during mountaineering at extreme altitude. Lancet. 1988;1:1277. Monasterio E. The Climber. Christchurch: Saxon Print; 2003:Issue 43/Autumn:p31â"2. Cloninger C, Przybeck T, Svrakic D, Wetzel R. The Temperament and Character Inventory: a guide to its development and use. Center for Psychobiology of Personality. St. Louis, Missouri: Washington University; 1994.
I am a member of the AAC and have been since the 1960's - and every year they publish their report on accidents in mountaineering. I don't have time to pull my copies and, in fact - I really have work to do. I have given you the best quick info I can find - but the AAC library is the best source.
I took stat - extensively. There are annual statistics published by the AAC - and per capita deaths for football players outnumber climbing deaths. We are comparing apples to apples here.
Every year the American Alpine Club publishes "accidents in mounteering" and the figures show that both total numbers and per capita deaths are higher for football - from children all the way up to adult football players.
You are quite correct - I should have limited the range to the US. Denali, because of its location, is a harder climb. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconcagua
Without a doubt. The most well-equipped expeditions now carry an inflatable plastic chamber that can hold a climber at higher partial pressures than his/her present altitude and can be supplemented to 21% O2. A Physician is necessary for use of this device.
Helicopters don't fly well at or above 18,000 ft - too little atmosphere for rotary wing aircraft. Add high winds and you can see why this method isn't a viable rescue technique - it works fine to evacuate an injured climber from a 14,000 ft basecamp - but manual rescue is all we have above about 18k ft.
I climb. The highest peak I've climbed is 18,700 ft (Pico de Orizaba) and it was only -32 f at the summit (I've had 2 ascents) at the coldest.
High altitude Pulmonary or Cerebral edema has been a major killer of excellent climbers - and you can climb to the same altitude a dozen times and show no signs - and die on the 13th.
Nanda Devi Unsoeld - Willie's only daughter and Crag's sister died on the mountain she was named for in 1976. I'd met her in the Tetons in the early 1970s. She had climbed many peaks higher than her namesake - but passed away from High Altitude Pulmonary Edema while stuck at altitude due to a storm.
Everest is 29,205 ft - Denali is the highest peak in the western hemisphere at 20,320 ft - but more people die from football injuries every year than climbing.
As for Krakauer - he revels in writing about death - I despise his writing. He made his name writing about the death of Christopher McCandless - a man who thought he could overwinter Alaska in a converted school-bus. That's a tragedy - not "news." and the book, Into the Wild is as corrupt a bit of "if it bleeds, it leads" journalism as exists.
I find Krakauer cheesy and a glorifier of death - a sick puppy where I come from.
I want to see liberals' heads explode when they realize that Socialized medicine is being used to buy people guns.
LK
Oregon is the only state with legal medically-assisted suicide. This "weapon" is the legal answer to the 49 states that don't allow a physician-ordered overdose.
My bet is that the vast majority of these that are "prescribed" won't be paid for by Medicare because it provides no therapeutic benefit / treatment of a pathology.
On the other hand, it is an excellent suicide tool - insert in mouth, aim up and pull the discharge pads: instant 100% effective life ending tool. A tad messy - but you somebody else has to clean it up.
Makes a perfect gift for that loaded aunt who is depressed and all too healthy. Give them as gifts to all of the people that you stand to inherit anything of value from.
Then, send them all a copy of "Final Exit" anonymously - say in the depths of the winter....
Pardon me, but you don't have libel as a cause of action these days. Slander if spoken, libel if written each had 5 absolute violations - publishing: the unchastity of an unmarried woman, having a loathsome disease, committing a crime, inability to perform his/her profession, or dishonesty in business... were per se tortious.
Today a "virgin" is an ugly 19 year-old male/. poster.
Today we have replaced the old tots with the tort of defamation. Not only does a "victim" have to demonstrate a publication that defames him/her - the victim has to have financial losses as a direct result of the defamatory publication - and prove those actual damages to sue.
So, you work long hours. Are you paid? Are you really getting the salary you think? How do you calculate the value of call hours when you aren't called?
Slashdot Mirror
He is a jerk. He is fascinated with death. His latest book is about Pat Tillman - and he is throwing a snit because the publisher wants to edit more than Krakauer wants.
NO CLIMBER THAT I KNOW THINKS ANYTHING OF Krakauer.
You want to read about the Eiger - from my library:
Hiebler, Toni, NORTH FACE IN WINTER, Barrie & Rockcliff, London, 1962; Lippincott, Philadelphia, 1963. An account of the first winter ascent of the north Face.
Gillman, Peter; Haston, Dougal, EIGER DIRECT, Collins, London, 1966; DIRETTISSIMA, THE EIGER ASSAULT, Harper & Row, New York, 1966. An account of the first ascent of the Harlin Route on the north face. (The book by the German team on the climb is entitled EIGER, KAMPF um die DIRETTISSIMA, Chr. Belser Verlag, Stuttgart, 1966.)
And, The White Spider....
The Journal has detailed reports for every accident in every year since the club's formation. It is collected in the annual accidents issue.
Join and you can search the library.
It is a tragedy. No post was done - but all of the initial symptoms were HAPE and the storm prevented her from being carried down.
Ultimately, when the body is as massively compromised as hers' was - one or more organ systems fail. HAPE seriously impaired respiration and that interfered with primary metabolic functions across the entire body. Throwing a clot or simply not having enough O2 to supply the pump is well within the realm of sequale from HAPE -induced hypoxia on top of the reduced partial pressure of O2 at altitude.
There is an old saying - the body can recover from one major organ system pathology and sometimes two (in ICU) but not three.
I was in excellent shape for both climbs - and I had the 12 steps, wait take 12 breaths - and repeat. Also I experienced tunnel vision at 18,700.
On my first ascent of Orizaba my two climbing partners and I rescued a kid left behind by his own college climbing club...
The second was more fun - we had a WEDDING at the edge of the caldera at 18,700.
Peru and the peaks there (and, Baffin Island) have always intrigued me, but Peru's government scared the crap out of me.
There is a link to a 4.3% High Altitude mortality figure in a prior post...
It is a, as I said, a "per capita" or per participant ratio. It doesn't matter that 10,000 climbers are dwarfed by 25,000,000 football players if, taken as a whole, the gross injury rates for football are well above climbing.
It also takes a different kind of person to climb - one who enjoys the personal challenge and can quit if the route becomes too dangerous. The object of climbing is to climb - and mountaineering is to make the summit and return.
Football is a contact sport where equipment is used to limit or protect against injuries in the ordinary course and scope of play. Climbers usually have a helmet as the sole "protective" gear aside from ropes, harnesses and appropriate clothing for the conditions.
There is a theory - if you didn't fall - you didn't need the rope.
And, indeed, people have "free climbed" (no direct aid, but roped) the nose route and the Salanthe Wall of El Capitan with an 80% success rate, See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Capitan
Elmes M, Barry D. Deliverance, Denial and the death zone: a study of narcissism and regression in the May 1996 Everest climbing disaster. J of Applied Behavioural Science. 1999;35:163â"87.
Mountain survivor was first to fall. The Press (newspaper), Christchurch, New Zealand. April 15, 2004.
The Climber. Saxon Print, Christchurch, New Zealand. Issue 47/Autumn; 2002: p13.
Malcolm M. Mountaineering fatalities in Mt Cook National Park. N Z Med J. 2001;114:78â"80.
Pollard A, Clarke C. Deaths during mountaineering at extreme altitude. Lancet. 1988;1:1277.
Monasterio E. The Climber. Christchurch: Saxon Print; 2003:Issue 43/Autumn:p31â"2.
Cloninger C, Przybeck T, Svrakic D, Wetzel R. The Temperament and Character Inventory: a guide to its development and use. Center for Psychobiology of Personality. St. Louis, Missouri: Washington University; 1994.
http://alpineclub-edm.org/accidents/causes.asp
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/americanalpineclublibrary
http://www.penmachine.com/2003/02/damn-lies-statistics-and-fatality.html
"The Everest numbers he mentioned (5%) roughly match the 4.3% high-mountain stats I quoted,"
I am a member of the AAC and have been since the 1960's - and every year they publish their report on accidents in mountaineering. I don't have time to pull my copies and, in fact - I really have work to do. I have given you the best quick info I can find - but the AAC library is the best source.
I took stat - extensively. There are annual statistics published by the AAC - and per capita deaths for football players outnumber climbing deaths. We are comparing apples to apples here.
Every year the American Alpine Club publishes "accidents in mounteering" and the figures show that both total numbers and per capita deaths are higher for football - from children all the way up to adult football players.
Indeed, climbing doesn't make it into the top 15 - see, http://www.livescience.com/health/060614_sport_injuries.html
You are quite correct - I should have limited the range to the US.
Denali, because of its location, is a harder climb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconcagua
Without a doubt. The most well-equipped expeditions now carry an inflatable plastic chamber that can hold a climber at higher partial pressures than his/her present altitude and can be supplemented to 21% O2. A Physician is necessary for use of this device.
Helicopters don't fly well at or above 18,000 ft - too little atmosphere for rotary wing aircraft. Add high winds and you can see why this method isn't a viable rescue technique - it works fine to evacuate an injured climber from a 14,000 ft basecamp - but manual rescue is all we have above about 18k ft.
I climb. The highest peak I've climbed is 18,700 ft (Pico de Orizaba) and it was only -32 f at the summit (I've had 2 ascents) at the coldest.
High altitude Pulmonary or Cerebral edema has been a major killer of excellent climbers - and you can climb to the same altitude a dozen times and show no signs - and die on the 13th.
Nanda Devi Unsoeld - Willie's only daughter and Crag's sister died on the mountain she was named for in 1976. I'd met her in the Tetons in the early 1970s. She had climbed many peaks higher than her namesake - but passed away from High Altitude Pulmonary Edema while stuck at altitude due to a storm.
Everest is 29,205 ft - Denali is the highest peak in the western hemisphere at 20,320 ft - but more people die from football injuries every year than climbing.
As for Krakauer - he revels in writing about death - I despise his writing. He made his name writing about the death of Christopher McCandless - a man who thought he could overwinter Alaska in a converted school-bus. That's a tragedy - not "news." and the book, Into the Wild is as corrupt a bit of "if it bleeds, it leads" journalism as exists.
I find Krakauer cheesy and a glorifier of death - a sick puppy where I come from.
I want to see liberals' heads explode when they realize that Socialized medicine is being used to buy people guns.
LK
Oregon is the only state with legal medically-assisted suicide. This "weapon" is the legal answer to the 49 states that don't allow a physician-ordered overdose.
My bet is that the vast majority of these that are "prescribed" won't be paid for by Medicare because it provides no therapeutic benefit / treatment of a pathology.
On the other hand, it is an excellent suicide tool - insert in mouth, aim up and pull the discharge pads: instant 100% effective life ending tool. A tad messy - but you somebody else has to clean it up.
Makes a perfect gift for that loaded aunt who is depressed and all too healthy. Give them as gifts to all of the people that you stand to inherit anything of value from.
Then, send them all a copy of "Final Exit" anonymously - say in the depths of the winter....
PG films - lots of PG films have swords and women as targets.
No PG film shows a man kissing a woman's breast. Those films are R or NC-17
You don't get out much, eh?
Pardon me, but you don't have libel as a cause of action these days. Slander if spoken, libel if written each had 5 absolute violations - publishing: the unchastity of an unmarried woman, having a loathsome disease, committing a crime, inability to perform his/her profession, or dishonesty in business... were per se tortious.
Today a "virgin" is an ugly 19 year-old male /. poster.
Today we have replaced the old tots with the tort of defamation. Not only does a "victim" have to demonstrate a publication that defames him/her - the victim has to have financial losses as a direct result of the defamatory publication - and prove those actual damages to sue.
He hasn't been fired...
Oh, and TRUTH is an absolute defense.....
a man cutting a woman's breast off - but not kissing it.
Sex is a control mechanism used by political conservatives and religion. You cannot take away their control tools.
With the Bush judges we'll see more of this - federalizing an inherently minor act that at most belongs in a parent-teacher conference.
TDR....old tech
Brother - the Fair Labor Standards Act says you are to be paid while on call - albeit not "full pay" unless called in.
Hundreds of thousands of medical care workers have been awarded back pay for this abuse. Microsoft got nailed by the statute - for their permatemps...
But, go ahead and work for free...
You nailed it on the head.
WOW!
So, you work long hours. Are you paid? Are you really getting the salary you think? How do you calculate the value of call hours when you aren't called?
You got that right, brother.
This is a different industry. Start anew. Learn from the other's mistakes.
Why do smart programmers make such dumb decisions. The Writers and Actors are doing quite well against the studios.
Well, perhaps C++ programmers are dumber than (pick the rich actor)