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Why Climbers Die On Mount Everest
Science Daily reports that researchers have conducted the first detailed analysis of deaths during expeditions to the summit of Mt. Everest. They found that
most deaths occur during descents from the summit in the so-called "death zone" above 8,000 meters, and also identified factors that appear to be associated with a greater risk of death, particularly symptoms of high-altitude cerebral edema. The big surprise that the data indicate those deaths aren't primarily from avalanches or falling ice, as had long been believed.
Is this related to the same health problems associated with diving (I.E The bends?)
Not for anyone who watched "Into thin air".
Still, on the list of ways to kick the bucket, beats slipping in the shower any day.
Um. If the chance of dying increases with time in the "death zone", and descents happen toward the end of your time in said zone, then duh. News flash: Chance of death increases proportional to time without adequate O2.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Mountain climbing accidents like car accidents, usually happen because of human error. Anybody mountain climbing is just concentrating on not messing up on a second to second basis, they are NOT playing dodgeball with rocks. Climbers probably know all the gruesome statistics about each mountain and it's well known that most deaths occur on the descent.
There seem to be a lot of people who really shouldn't climb it because they aren't nearly as well trained as they think they are, and yet climb it anway..... Thats gotta rank up there for reasons why people die up there.
Monstar L
Climbers die on the way down. It's more dangerous, you're more fatigued and your guard is down. You also tend to ignore clear signs of physical harm.
Because it's cold?
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
The higher you climb, the harder your lungs have to work to extract enough oxygen from the air in order to keep you alive. If you don't get enough oxygen, you don't die immediately. Your brain starts becoming less and less efficient, since it cannot produce energy anaerobically, like the rest of your body can.
Of course, this process is invisible to most people. Its comparable to how your brain isn't fully awake if you get woken up suddenly and feeling confused at the simplest tasks. Hypoxia also affects divers.
The leakage of fluid from the vessels in the brain is caused by the same hypoxia, since the blood vessels need energy as well.
The only solution is for climbers to take their own oxygen, or for someone to invent a mobile and low powered oxygen concentrator.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
People exhaust themselves climbing up, but most when they do realize they are in trouble will turn back...or perhaps they realize they have enough and push on to get up there, but don't leave enough in reserve to come back down. Also there's a false sense of achievement - "I made it to the summit!" - but while making it back down alive is actually more improtant it may be anticlimactic and not as big a motivator when you're spent after the effort of reaching the top.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
That's why!
The reason that nobody Rs TFA is because the answers are so bleeding obvious.
It has nothing to do with O2 - the deaths are caused by Yetis.
Like many guard dogs, they will happily let you onto the property. They just don't let you back out again.
Thus, you can only get the bends going up.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I thought that "Lack of Oxygen to the Brain" was the root cause and standard 'Definition of Death'? ...and any other such instantaneous trauma deaths.)
(Of course, I am excluding those who blow themselves up with high explosives, fall to their deaths from great heights [or any who may ride thermonuclear bombs as they fall to earth]
It is very hard to walk downhill and keep your balance etc. It is far easier to walk uphill. With reduced cerebral function it is far more likely for someone to loose there balance and take a bad fall going down than up.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
It's just a name, like the Forbidden Zone or the Zone of no Return. All the zones have names like that on the Mountain of Terror
"I think so, Brain, but 'instant karma' always gets so lumpy." - Pinky
"Decepticons FOREVER!!!" - Ravage
Now what serious climber really believed those were the primary causes?
A chance of death or not, climbing Everest is still #1 on my list of things to do before I die.
Gone!
I have never seen anyone claim that the primary cause of death on Everest is avalanche or falling ice - I'm not sure where that fiction came from. It is common knowledge that the primary cause of death up there is directly related with complications from being in the dead zone, combined with the complications of frequent blizzards that hamper the attempts to get out of the dead zone. Climbers run out of oxygen and also get lost. Some have to be left behind by others because all are under distress and unable to help the straggler. It's a very deadly place to go and is foolish in that one in ten end up dying up there.
most deaths occur during descents from the summit in the so-called "death zone"
Well, there's your problem! Just name that part of the mountain something else!
when it came to cheaters in sports, they'll do things like dope with epo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin
and blood bank: inject their own previously extracted, concentrated red blood cells back into themselves before the run/ bike (with the subsequent increase in clot risk, of course)
of course, why can't climbers do this as well? take all of the illegal things they do in sports and apply it legally. of course, they are raising their risk of death with some of these body modifications, but at a lower, controlled risk than that from climbing a mountain without any body preparation at all
regardless, any climber should spend time running marathons in the high alps or the high sierra to increase red blood cell production naturally, if you are not genetically a sherpa
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
My definition of death: unable to determine 1+1=2.
Hmm why do climbers die on everest? wweellll jeeez, its a giant mound of rock and ice that humans are not designed to be climbing on naturally. Thanks for the clarification science!
I was watching past seasons show a few months ago and it shows pretty raw first hand accounts of what it's like to attempt to climb Everest. The show also makes a good effort in recognizing the true climbers on the mountains -- the Sherpas, who assist and often save the lives of climbers.
Not exactly.
The lack of oxygen to the brain and several key organ is defined as "shock". (Not enough blood flow reaching said organs - Most of the type of shocks due to a drop of blood pressure arriving at said organs).
Death is currently defined to be lack of ability to sustain basic life support functions without a machine assistance, and is tested by checking a series of reflexes. Those reflexes don't actually check the brain, but the brain stem actually.
Once upon a time death used to be defined as a cardio-respiratory arrest. But as techniques in resuscitation and artificial life support have advanced that definition doesn't cut it anymore.
--
disclaimer: The explanation I'm giving here is an over simplification. See the wikipedia articles linked for more accuracy and more details. Although IAAMD, the above descriptions are not to be taken literally.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Silly sods know they have one chance, and probably realise at about the 60% mark they should give up and turn around, but know if they do they will die without having achieved #1. So they push on, already behind, already over exerting, hit the top too late, and yes, it was the #1 and #omega thing they did before they died.
So why is anybody surprised by these results?
I'm surprised that this is a big surprise. I thought it was common knowledge that oxygen deprivation and the effects of altitute were the most deadly factors...
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
Climbers die while descending Mount Everest because even though hundreds of people capable of rescuing them pass, all of those people have paid upwards of $25,000 to have a chance to summit the peak, and none of those assholes are willing to risk their precious experience to save someone's life.
Every year there's another couple of these utterly avoidable fatalities.
One of my friends went to hike Everest... he didn't make it very far up. Eating food from some of the natives made him very sick (projectiles from both ends), and he was drug off to a hospital. He didn't die, but it was a possibility in his condition.
THAT would suck... travel half-way around the world, to be taken down by tourist food.
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
They die because it's cold and the air's thin.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Climbers die on Mt. Everest because they are frickin idiots. There is no good reason to go up there, and they should leave the bodies up there to serve as warnings to other idiots.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Not necessarily - depends where you are. In Britain, death is defined as absence of brain stem _activity_ (IANAL/IANAD)
Not a member of the General Public
"Everest Beyond the Limit" was the Discovery channel reality show that was on several years ago. It was made clear that it was known that most climbers die on the decent in the "death zone" from reasons other than "avalanches or falling ice". The primary cause was "high-altitude cerebral edema".
What is next? A slashdot article on "when flipping a coin heads actually shows up 50% of the time!"
Computer Chimp
LOL. You could've just said "the effects of altitute" is the deadly factor, because oxygen deprivation is an effect of altitude anyway (it's "altituDe", BTW).
Have you actually read the article?
To paraphrase the late George Mallory, "Because they're there."
That is all.
Gun violence and cancer are the 2 killers on Everest. How could they miss this?
He also wrote "Alive in the death zone" after his 2006 expedition when he was thought dead and left overnight by his fellow climbers after suffering a cerebral edema on the way down. I haven't read that one yet.
The writer may sound a bit accident prone but consider the time between those two dates :)
Nice job! Thanks for your information.
------------------
I know some wow gold in wow, cheap wow gold farmed by man.
You can read the actual research for yourself in British Medical Journal:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/337/dec11_1/a2654
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Stupidity...
Why anyone would participate in such a dangerous 'sport' begs for natural selection to step in and perform it's function. Nuff said.
...Yeti attacks fall on the list?
Q: Why do mountain climbers rope themselves together?
A: To prevent the sensible ones from going home.
Have gnu, will travel.
Why do people die climbing it? Because they're there
HYPOXIA!!
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
Hubris. What else?
because it's there!
The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
The article says:
"Of a total of reported 212 deaths on Everest from 1921 to 2006, 192 occurred above Base Camp, the last encampment before technical (roped) climbing begins."
Does this mean that 10% of climbers die at (or below) base camp? That's a little scary, because in early October this year, I spent a night at a tent hotel near base camp on the Tibetan side. The altitude is 5200m. I had pretty bad headaches and stomach weirdness from the air pressure differences. Two of the three people I was with had trouble breathing; one even vomited after waking up in the morning. Now I'm glad we didn't go up any higher.
I got some amazing photos though and, well it's Mount Frickin' Everest!
-ryry
The problem is that helicopters simply don't go that high. The air's too thin.
If they did you can bet there'd be tourist flights to the top of Everest.
No sig today...
I have mixed feelings on the Everest thing. I guess I can understand people wanting to test their limits, and push themselves. And the isolation and harsh environment can be intruiging.
However, the stories of loved ones, wifes and children, left behind when someone screws up and dies, really make these acts seem selfish at times. (Stories such as the adventurer calling the loved ones on the satellite phone before their inevitable deaths make for good drama, but don't change the fact that it's horribly unnecessary risk for someone with a family...)
If I'm were well enough off to have $65,000 to plunk into a hobby, I think one of my main goals in life would be to stay *alive* and enjoy it :) ("Okay, I made it, I'm succesful; now let's not screw it up and die!")
I have somewhat more sympathy for folks like Steve Fosset who took fairly calculated risks with a lot of safety measures included (and ironically didn't die doing anything particularly dangerous), and potentially pushed some technological research in his quests.
To wax philisophical for a moment, perhaps it's because there aren't a lot of life-risking activities that can greatly advanced mankind these days, as in the days of the explorers. Maybe the same mentality of Columbus (or insert-your-favorite-explorer-here), just doesn't have a satisfying role in today's society, where all the exploring is pretty much done, so these people find these substitue quests to pacify them. ("Deep space astronaut" might be a good calling for these folks, but there's not exactly a lot of openings.)
Or perhaps I just personally don't see the lure of mountain climbing; it's likely other folks I admire, such as more modern transatlantic sailing adventurers (e.g. Joshua Solcum) could be considered to be in the same class, achieving things that tested their limits, but in the end didn't really advance mankind, other than providng some great tales. (See "Sailing around the world alone.")
(Even more off-topic, for a bizarre story about business/financial/PR pressures for a sailing circumnavigation, and the ensuing cheating and resulting insanity, check out Deep Water. A fascinating story, and good documentary on it.)
To each his own, I guess. Intentionally risking hypoxia doesn't sound like that much of a kick to me (although I hear hypoxia is fun, for the few minutes before you die).
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
...to ensure there's never a shortage of darwin award recipients.
Hey, look! It's Bono's brother.
This only effects those who are not used to the climate, the Sherpa trek up and down that mountains as guides etc.. without much effort when compared to the foreigners who attempt to climb.
Did you manage to get your share of the class action refund?
Thanks for bringing yet another episode of Sony sliminess to my attention.
The full PDF of the article is available from the link given by the parent. In spite of the summary given by TFA, it shows that people die primarily from trauma.
it is the sudden stop when you reach the ground.
There are two reasons for climbers dying on Mount Everest:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081212.gif
In fact, it's common knowledge that more fatalities happen on the descent and that HAPE and HACE are the biggest dangers.
Maybe it's news that someone outside the climbing community actually did a study and confirmed what we've known all along, but there's nothing new here. Move along.
I won't stand on the peak of Everest until there are helicopters that can operate at that altitude.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
ka-ching!
This isn't news at all. Mount Everrest actually is a mountain for sissies, technically speaking. The standard route to the summit is more of an extended hike than an actual climb compared to 'real' mountains such as the Cerro Torre. At sea level it would be a more like a walk in the park, literaly.
The difficult part with Everest is taking your time to aclimatise - which can take up to half a year. Which most people don't do. Others take O2 with them. Yet O2 only means you won't die inmediately in the death zone if your gear doesn't fail, it doesn't mean making the summit is a sure bet. Most people die on Everest because the lack of O2 gets to their brain and they start doing stupid things. Meaning more stupid things than going up there unprepared in the first place. That's why the standard route is littred with corpses.
If it were a real mountain that required actual high-profile tech-climbing skills, we'd have much less idiots dying up there, simply because they couldn't reach the death-zone.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
It is macho foolishness. What if Everest projected out of the atmosphere? Would people try to climb it without a space suit? You are deliberately placing your body into an environment in which it is not capable of surviving, to what? See if it survives anyway? No, I guess it is a little more subtle than that: to see if you can manage your imminent death effectively enough to get to the top and back without dying first. Swell. Death Sport 2000.
It's like the prisoners at Guantanamo vying with each other for bragging rights on waterboarding records. "I went under 8 times before I started lying!" "That's nothing, I went under 10!" "Noobs! I went under 15 times, and the 15th time, when I came up I spat on Sgt. Duffy!" "You spat on Duffy?!" "Hey, check these scars." "God, I think he's telling the truth!"
Fortunately people don't think this way about it or it would be *illegal* to climb.
Social Credit would solve everything...
It just occurred to me that air pressure depends on two things, altitude AND weather :). Usually during storms the air pressure would drop significantly even on the sea level, and similar could be expected on the mountain. Maybe that time altitude + storm meant lower air pressure than her previous higher altitudes in good weather?
I climb and study meteorology. You've given me a very nice question to think about :). What you say about edemas is probably very true, but maybe this is an additional reason to take storms extremely seriously?
It's not that uncommon for people to push themselves way over the line to do a certain task, and once they're done they just flop over and die.
Surely someone has invented some gloves with oil based veins that pump through your hands and back up under your arm or perhaps with the aid of a battery with solar charger. Is it also possibly to inject some natural fish based derivative anti freeze, or use some chemical based heater.
Expensive perhaps, but better to be safe, then you can sell it to the next expedition.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I think there should be a cable carriage or a vertical tunnel with elevator inside that takes to the top of Mt. Everest.
Currently there is a discrimination against the ill, disabled or elderly persons, who are not able to visit the summit, because they are unable to climb up there.
The UN Declaration of Human Rights codifies people have to right to travel where-ever they want. Technology does allow for mechanized transport service for the Mt. Everest, therefore it should be provided, just as wheelchair ramps are prescibed by law for public institutions and shopping malls.
A climber intentionally risks many other things, like falling into a crevasse on a glacier, getting caught in a storm on a mountain, etc. I climb, and for me it's very satisfying to manage these risks by making good decisions and surviving in good health from something that is serious business. It's an adventure, and even when it's not a large step for the mankind, it's a kind of personal exploration. Doesn't matter so much if other people charted the glaciers and summits before me, I'm still learning very much about the planet we live on.
The risk management is not unlike driving a car. While driving fast there's a significant risk of death which we manage. People drive cars even when many die while doing just that. Of course it's much more satisfying to do something a bit less mundane in tremendous surroundings. I don't know why, but after my first trip to Himalayas I've had this calling.. It's not something that existed before that, though.
You probably shouldn't equate climbing with the Everest so much. People who go to Everest are the types who want to climb the highest mountains - as if that was the superior achievement. And Everest is relatively easy too, it's only challenging because of the height. Most climbers are happier on lower hills. Most climbers never risk hypoxia. And some climbers still climb mountains that have never been climbed by anyone.
Climbing today might not advance the humanity as a whole very much, but advances still happen. At least the equipment used in climbing and professions who use ropes has developed a great deal during the last decades. It's actually so fast that during my three years of climbing, I'm already seeing technological advances. Also, thanks to the climbers, there's a lot of science done on which knots are the best in saving lives, and which others occasionally fail. This might not get you excited, but it does that to me ;).
What if we get up to the second floor from the basement ?
That's a definition of "surprise" of which I have previously been unaware.
I thought the article said that HAPE wasn't seen as the danger it was thought to be.
On difficult ground, press on.
On encircled ground, devise strategies.
On death ground, fight!
Ander
@=
this is because climbers push on beyond their "turn around time". If you are climbing everest and 200 meters from the top and you hit your turn around time, or the weather turns south, you need to give up. If you are behind schedule and push on, it is likely that you will run out of bottled oxygen on the decent. Everest can be climbed without oxygen, but if you take someone climbing with oxygen and suddenly take that away from them they become extremely fatigued and can barely walk in the death zone, this is because their body is not conditioned to be operating at that altitude without bottled oxygen. Also on the way down you are tired. You may have left high camp at 11:00 PM the night before, and it is probably afternoon by now. It is easy to make a mistake.
I think you'll find that statistically speaking most deaths tend to be on the descent of ANY mountain.
It's not just a medical condition, but quite often down to general lapses in concentration.
When you're pushing for the summit you're absolutely focussed on your goal and pay attention to every little detail. Once you've topped out and experienced the elation of making it it's very easy to let your mind relax as you descend, and combined with the tiredness it's more likely you'll make a mistake that can lead to a fall or other accident such as taking the wrong route - this happens to a lot of people on Ben Nevis where the route down isn't so obvious in winter.
I read the book.
In that season the deaths were not really the ones from the article, but people becoming fatally exhausted and making mistakes, then getting unlucky enough for the reaper to seal the deal.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Because they can.
Having gotten myself into a bit of altitude sickness hiking up to 14,000 feet too quickly, parent post calls it exactly right. The signs that your body isn't adjusting to the altitude begin hours before the trouble sets in.
Most of these personalities climbing Everest have made quite a bit of money ignoring warnings/taking risks. They either don't know their bodies well enough, summiting Everest is a catered affair, or intentionally ignore their body's warnings. They are more inclined to die simply because they want the prestige of summiting(sp?) Everest.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
1. "Downhill" is not like skiing or rapelling downhill. 80% down and 20% up makes that 20% downhill *days* worth of extremely hard effort.
2. Physical issues. Having camped above 10,000 feet, I can tell you the amount of water required for drinking so you don't get dehydrated is crazy. Medium physical efforts at that altitude leave you breathless. Imagine trying to move ~200 lbs dead weight around clothed like the Michelin Man.
3. Hostile environment. Lack of oxygen, extreme and unpredictable weather, and water and food delivery requirements all add up to a l-o-n-g time up and down the mountain.
It all adds up quickly to a months-long effort to retrieve a body.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Some people say it's the men who have walked on the moon. Personally, though, I think that probably the most elite club out there consists of those who have summited all 14 8000m peaks. An even smaller group would be those who have done it without supplemental oxygen.
Because it's there ... and so are they.
Though not a hardcore climber, I've summited numerous 14,000+ ft peaks in Colorado.
The fact that most Everest climbers die from altitude effects while descending is not surprising. Altitude sickness hits gradually and most of them realized they were ill (or their more lucid companions did) and were in the process of trying to get down when they died. At such heights oxygen deprivation kills you before you have time to freeze to death.
More than falling, exposure, altitude, or any other specific risk, "summit fever" is the single greatest danger of mountaineering. When people are fixated on summiting regardless of conditions (including physical exhaustion) they place themselves at an elevated and unnecessary risk of death. Everest expeditions involving gung-ho newbies who have paid large amounts of money for a single-shot attempt inevitably leads to a high death rate, since these sacrificial victims are both maniacally obsessed with reaching the top and incapable of objectively evaluating the situation.
Everest climbs should be limited to those who have proven high-altitude mountaineering experience. Guides who profit by leading inexperienced tourists into extreme danger should be villified, especially those who have the gall to come down unscathed while leaving behind the frozen corpses of their clients. They're the ones creating Everest's culture of death.
- Paul
http://3.paulhamill.com
One of the many things I found interesting about that book was his matter-of-fact description of just how hallucinatory and out-of-touch everyone was, including him. He wrote (as I recall) about being caught in the blizzard and talking to one of the other climbers for twenty minutes, and the next day when he was down lower, realized that the other climber he'd been talking to hadn't been there -- he'd either imagined the entire conversation or he'd been talking to someone completely different than he thought he was speaking to. He had no idea what had actually happened during that time, in other words, and at the time he felt fine, if scared.
I'm a pilot and I've seen video of people who are deeply hypoxic, and completely unaware of what they're doing. They're talking nonsense or thrashing around, without any signs of consciousness. There is a very creepy video of some people filming themselves on a mountain flight, and going increasingly loopy and losing touch with reality, before the plane crashes into a mountain. They never have a clue that they've all gone completely crazy.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Disposable income becomes locked in ice as more overconfident straw dogs flood Discovery channel with tax deductible vacation footage of themselves turning blue on trails blazed with discarded oxygen cylinders, dropping themselves off the Yeti haunted trails into the increasingly commonplace blizzard of high altitude footnotes, Sherpas laughing all the way to their own romantic banks. Heaven is implacable. Heaven does not care.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
Climbers should begin carrying a parachute. I envision a steerable sort. That way, when they summit, they need only open their parachute and steer themselves for a quick ride to base camp ( or another low-altitude location if winds are not favorable, they should carry an EPRB too ) before they get the disease.
Some may say parachute technology is for wusses, but it's extra weight for the sherpas to carry, so it does come with a penalty that makes it less wussy. And climbers don't seem to be averse to using other high tech gear such as O2 tanks, and Gore-Tex ( Probably Gore-Tex is passe nowadays, the pro-climbers prolly wear some new fadbric now. )
...
In Soviet Tibet, the bugger knocks YOU off!
because lung physiology told them to.
The partial pressure of oxygen depends on altitude, weather...and latitude, since the Earth's atmosphere is not evenly thick. It thins toward the poles. I've heard the partial pressure of oxygen on the summit of Denali (~20,000 ft, but near the Arctic Circle) is about the same as the partial pressure of oxygen on the summit of a 24,000 ft peak in the Himalaya (near the equator).
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Among the climbers I know, Krakauer made his name with Eiger Dreams, which to my recollection did not overly focus on death. And, keep in mind that Krakauer did not go to Everest to cover a tragedy. He went to write an article on what's it's like to be on a guided climb of Everest.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I think they're certified for more than one use. They're just heavy, and not needed for the (already very dangerous) descent. So climbers just leave them. It's not unknown for climbers to leave their tents either; if they've been up there any amount of time, the UV has cooked the nylon too much to be used again anyway.
Of all the various problems surrounding Everest, personally I put the left-behind bottles pretty low on my list. They are inert, frozen, and basically there is no ecosystem in the death zone for them to harm anyway. And the only people who are going to see them are other climbers, most of whom are carrying/leaving their own oxygen bottles.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
There are other deadly effects of altitude, when you get too high you're no longer able to have a decent hot cup of coffee in the morning, no matter how long you boil the water for...
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.