I don't agree with it, I don't do it, but it is not theft.
Theft - "appropriation of property belonging to another, with the intention to permanently deprive". Thanks to the lassie for that (handy having a live-in lawyer).
In techincal terms, you're duplicating. In legal terms, you're not depriving - you've not 'stolen' and money from them - they never had it to begin with.
It is copyright infringment, but that's all. Over in the US I believe you get more time for this than you do for manslaughter. You craaazy americans. Gotta love you all.
That wasn't my take. Maybe I should RTFA again, but I thought Tridge wrote a clone of BK - something 'free as in beer' that would interoperate with the depositories being used by the developers.
Maybe there was extra function - I couldn't spot that (I've never used Tridge's stuff) - but it seems that for the basic CVS functions, he reverse-engineered.
I don't see the problem with that, though. Reverse engineering is a Very Good Thing. I won't go into why - that's all been covered already by numerous posts. The best two examples I've seen in this context are samba and the IBM compatible industry. Both are surely used by the BitMover developers?
I'm not sure I agree with you that SIP is inferior to IAX. They're designed to do different things.
SIP is textual, whereas IAX is binary. The SIP protocol is simpler than IAX. These things help the developer.
SIP carries signalling information only, but IAX carries both signalling and media. Thus IAX protocol entities can be smarter about NAT. For SIP, you need to use a STUN server, session border controller, etc. On the other hand, having multiple compenents gives you more flexibility in large deployments - you have freedom to move devices to teh centre or edge of a network depending on what they'll be doing.
Swings and roundabouts. Both are free to implement, both have multiple open source implementations (if that's important to you), you can implement either yourself. Real-world devices I'm familiar with using either scale equally well.
Tahe your pick...
no time to RTFA, still at work. Can someone give me a technical summary of how this works. Just interested. Plus, you guys usually offer more useful/terse/comedic info than the bulletins.
he he, nowhere near as sophistocated as anything you mention! These are tunes we play when mucking around - we just decided to record a few. Almost like a recording of a practise session. It's just that we didn't write the music. Although all the solos are ours (ok, ok, we couldn't play the real ones:) and the bass is generally quite different.
We've already started to write a few tunes of our own. I just hope no one has copyrighted or patented the fucking 12 bar blues.
Answering myself.
Welll, general opinion seems to be that if I put up a cover, no matter how low quality (and I don't mean bitrate) then I need to pay royalties.
i see the point. But it kinda stings, doesn't it. What about "here mom, look what I made!"
I can't remember the details - are we criminals when we sing happy birthday?
Ok, so here's the next question. If I record covers of tunes (and we're talking about a bloke with a bass, a bloke with a gitaroo, a lassie who sings real good and an 8-track, recorded in a house, not played live to anyone), can I legally distribute them to my friends? i.e. not public, but can I e-mail them, copy them to CD and mail them, etc.?
My first Friday night on Slashdot:)
I absolutely agree with you.
I find myself in a bit of a dilemma here. I work for a software firm, writing proprietary software. I understand the need to get paid for what I do - I depend on it.
On the other hand, I've played 'cello for years. I'm used to performing - and the thought of compensation never occured to me. I grant you - 1) I was young, and 2) the people I'd be compansating are long gone, but it's just something I didn't think of.
Now I'm recording more modern music, and it doesn't occur to me that my piece-of-shit low-quality low-skill attempt to emulate something should require me to pay for it. Yes, I might offer my attempts for download, but I don't charge for them, it's made plainly clear that they're not the real thing, and you'd have to be deaf to to think they were. (Although i think they're better, 'cos they're mainly bass, and there's nothing better than a thick string. Just like a 'cello.)
I guess I might be in the shit there, then. I will, of course, take them down if anyone complains (but it's not like anyone's actually downloading them anyway!).
The way things are going, though, I can imagine the day where I need permission just to practise someone else's tune. This is how you learn - you "stand on the shoulders of others". You don't re-invent the wheel.
Sorry this doesn't really make sense as a post - as I said before, not feeling great.
btw, w.r.t. proprietary software, I believe it and free (or whatever name you want to use today) software can work perfectly together. I've worked on more than one project using free software. I completely understand (and love) the idea of it. I've contributed both during work activity, and in my free time.
If i record covers (I play bass, my friends play guitar and sing), and then post them on my website, am I breaking the law?
OK, I'm in the UK. What about now?
I think I know the answers - but it's a cheap way to get some insight. And a good way to start a discussion. And hopefully a fight. (It's Friday night here, but I'm indoors cos I feel like shit.)
fair point on the ferret vs weasel thing.
Back to the point, though. They're going to be telling people that downloading anything without paying for it is bad. That anything you download without paying for is a low-quality rip off. "If they don't want money for it, it can't be theirs, right?" It's the mindset of the particular type of person on that side of the fence.
They will not use the words 'fair use' in the classroom. Thats a cert.
I have a bunch of mp3s on my website - recordings of my friends and I playing the gitaroo and bass. I don't want anyone to pay for this stuff. I want it shared as much as possible. You never know - it might do me some good. And if that works out, and people like what we do, then maybe we can make some money. You know - the old model where I have something you like and *then* you pay, rather than you paying through some stealth tax, or with your fucking children.
apologies for the language. bad day.
Oh, for fuck sake. Every day this just keeps getting worse. I've had a few beers, and normally resist posting in this condition, but I've obviously had one too may tonight.
Why are these fucktards allowed anywhere near schools? Why these particular fucktards? Where do you draw the line?
I guess we're lobbying the kids now. This planet is going down the fucking sink. S'what you get when our governments are run by people of below-average intelligence. The people who seek power are the very fuckers who should never be allowed to taste it. Why does everyone have a short term 'I want a ferrari' mindset these days?
Fuck. And I had a bad day too.
the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and all that.
but the flip side of the coin you mention is that each time they do this, they come away with less respect. they make themselves look dumb. we should be happy to help with that
There's a problem with your analogy. In your example, Dyson approached the offenders before they knew about/created anything using his invention. In this case a) the patent, or at least the claims pertaining to this discussion, were filed *after* the defendents had working implentations (see above posts [score 4+], I'm too lazy to link to them), and b) there is plenty of prior art, there's obviousness, this patent isn't valid, etc.
Also, post above mention that the company did indeed aproach the defendents, and are now falling back on this course of action because the "defendents are being unreasonable". In other words, they asked for the moon. Dyson probably had a reasonable proposition.
and a nice (if small) set of email addys too. you never know, one of them could be of interest to someone. I bet they're happy with their newfound fame...
crud. we're truthful and honest. so there will be no problems there. remember that obfuscation doesn't work, so there's no point in trying to hide things. a scientist doesn't fear what he'll find at the end, only the ramblings of the fools that don't understand once he's done.
And just suppose there were problems, would you not want to know about them now? Say, for example, we find that we need to get rid of some piece of code. surely better that we find out now, and do it ourselves?
I don't believe that's the case however. Speaking of cases, where's my next beer?
y, i do exactly the same. Except my minidisc has just given up the ghost, so I'm trying an ipod.
I don't buy much music, 'cos it's all basically crap these days, but I have had the misfortune of ending up with a good CD, but copyprotected (a present, or I would have left it on the shelf). It won't play/rip on the PC. I don't have optical in on the machine, so the only copy I can get of it is good old analogue stereo. At least, with the gear I have here.
Like you say, I can grab a pristine copy from somewhere out there, but for how much longer? And I would worry about that letter, even if it is bullshit... Even the propect of 'whatever the fuck the FUD is these days' is too dangerous for my job.
Guess I'm just having a grumble. Don't like the way this is all going...
Slashdot Mirror
Nice of the guy to use an editor that you'll "hate for two weeks" on a two week course. Kermit the Bastard, eh?
I like vi(m). Sleek.
brilliant. Although you lose marks for not coming up with the name Final Fantasy first. I invented that when I was 4.
Me guilty too. Test cleanup script.
/, delete a particular file, cd somedir, rm -rf *, cd somewhere else, rm -rf *.
script was: cd
ran it hundreds of times, with no problems.
Then one day, someone deletes one of those directories. Someone else mounts the root of a terabyte filer onto the system.
I wish I'd read this story a few years ago.
I don't agree with it, I don't do it, but it is not theft.
Theft - "appropriation of property belonging to another, with the intention to permanently deprive". Thanks to the lassie for that (handy having a live-in lawyer).
In techincal terms, you're duplicating. In legal terms, you're not depriving - you've not 'stolen' and money from them - they never had it to begin with.
It is copyright infringment, but that's all. Over in the US I believe you get more time for this than you do for manslaughter. You craaazy americans. Gotta love you all.
That wasn't my take. Maybe I should RTFA again, but I thought Tridge wrote a clone of BK - something 'free as in beer' that would interoperate with the depositories being used by the developers.
Maybe there was extra function - I couldn't spot that (I've never used Tridge's stuff) - but it seems that for the basic CVS functions, he reverse-engineered.
I don't see the problem with that, though. Reverse engineering is a Very Good Thing. I won't go into why - that's all been covered already by numerous posts. The best two examples I've seen in this context are samba and the IBM compatible industry. Both are surely used by the BitMover developers?
I'm not sure I agree with you that SIP is inferior to IAX. They're designed to do different things.
SIP is textual, whereas IAX is binary. The SIP protocol is simpler than IAX. These things help the developer.
SIP carries signalling information only, but IAX carries both signalling and media. Thus IAX protocol entities can be smarter about NAT. For SIP, you need to use a STUN server, session border controller, etc. On the other hand, having multiple compenents gives you more flexibility in large deployments - you have freedom to move devices to teh centre or edge of a network depending on what they'll be doing.
Swings and roundabouts. Both are free to implement, both have multiple open source implementations (if that's important to you), you can implement either yourself. Real-world devices I'm familiar with using either scale equally well.
Tahe your pick...
NAND. You can build any logic operation from only NANDs. If they patent that, they've got us all.
no time to RTFA, still at work. Can someone give me a technical summary of how this works. Just interested. Plus, you guys usually offer more useful/terse/comedic info than the bulletins.
he he, nowhere near as sophistocated as anything you mention! These are tunes we play when mucking around - we just decided to record a few. Almost like a recording of a practise session. It's just that we didn't write the music. Although all the solos are ours (ok, ok, we couldn't play the real ones :) and the bass is generally quite different.
We've already started to write a few tunes of our own. I just hope no one has copyrighted or patented the fucking 12 bar blues.
Answering myself. :)
Welll, general opinion seems to be that if I put up a cover, no matter how low quality (and I don't mean bitrate) then I need to pay royalties.
i see the point. But it kinda stings, doesn't it. What about "here mom, look what I made!"
I can't remember the details - are we criminals when we sing happy birthday?
Ok, so here's the next question. If I record covers of tunes (and we're talking about a bloke with a bass, a bloke with a gitaroo, a lassie who sings real good and an 8-track, recorded in a house, not played live to anyone), can I legally distribute them to my friends? i.e. not public, but can I e-mail them, copy them to CD and mail them, etc.?
My first Friday night on Slashdot
I absolutely agree with you.
I find myself in a bit of a dilemma here. I work for a software firm, writing proprietary software. I understand the need to get paid for what I do - I depend on it.
On the other hand, I've played 'cello for years. I'm used to performing - and the thought of compensation never occured to me. I grant you - 1) I was young, and 2) the people I'd be compansating are long gone, but it's just something I didn't think of.
Now I'm recording more modern music, and it doesn't occur to me that my piece-of-shit low-quality low-skill attempt to emulate something should require me to pay for it. Yes, I might offer my attempts for download, but I don't charge for them, it's made plainly clear that they're not the real thing, and you'd have to be deaf to to think they were. (Although i think they're better, 'cos they're mainly bass, and there's nothing better than a thick string. Just like a 'cello.)
I guess I might be in the shit there, then. I will, of course, take them down if anyone complains (but it's not like anyone's actually downloading them anyway!).
The way things are going, though, I can imagine the day where I need permission just to practise someone else's tune. This is how you learn - you "stand on the shoulders of others". You don't re-invent the wheel.
Sorry this doesn't really make sense as a post - as I said before, not feeling great.
btw, w.r.t. proprietary software, I believe it and free (or whatever name you want to use today) software can work perfectly together. I've worked on more than one project using free software. I completely understand (and love) the idea of it. I've contributed both during work activity, and in my free time.
If i record covers (I play bass, my friends play guitar and sing), and then post them on my website, am I breaking the law?
OK, I'm in the UK. What about now?
I think I know the answers - but it's a cheap way to get some insight. And a good way to start a discussion. And hopefully a fight. (It's Friday night here, but I'm indoors cos I feel like shit.)
It's just for shits and giggles, man. Don't worry. Just light up, site back, and wait for Enderle to quote it.
chill out. clink on another link. it's amusing to some of us.
fair point on the ferret vs weasel thing.
Back to the point, though. They're going to be telling people that downloading anything without paying for it is bad. That anything you download without paying for is a low-quality rip off. "If they don't want money for it, it can't be theirs, right?" It's the mindset of the particular type of person on that side of the fence.
They will not use the words 'fair use' in the classroom. Thats a cert.
I have a bunch of mp3s on my website - recordings of my friends and I playing the gitaroo and bass. I don't want anyone to pay for this stuff. I want it shared as much as possible. You never know - it might do me some good. And if that works out, and people like what we do, then maybe we can make some money. You know - the old model where I have something you like and *then* you pay, rather than you paying through some stealth tax, or with your fucking children.
apologies for the language. bad day.
Oh, for fuck sake. Every day this just keeps getting worse. I've had a few beers, and normally resist posting in this condition, but I've obviously had one too may tonight.
Why are these fucktards allowed anywhere near schools? Why these particular fucktards? Where do you draw the line?
I guess we're lobbying the kids now. This planet is going down the fucking sink. S'what you get when our governments are run by people of below-average intelligence. The people who seek power are the very fuckers who should never be allowed to taste it. Why does everyone have a short term 'I want a ferrari' mindset these days?
Fuck. And I had a bad day too.
Read your quote from "The things at risk are...". What about any of it is specific to OSS? Surely all of it is more of a worry with proprietary code?
but the flip side of the coin you mention is that each time they do this, they come away with less respect. they make themselves look dumb. we should be happy to help with that
...are slightly optimised implementations. Just in case anyone thought I'd made a typo. (Oh, and that s is intentional - I'm a Scot)
Also, post above mention that the company did indeed aproach the defendents, and are now falling back on this course of action because the "defendents are being unreasonable". In other words, they asked for the moon. Dyson probably had a reasonable proposition.
So it's just that boolean math I learned at school - T + F = T
so here's geek challenge. Come up with a boolean expression for the entire law process.
I think he was saying that you can affect the ratings with money.
and a nice (if small) set of email addys too. you never know, one of them could be of interest to someone. I bet they're happy with their newfound fame...
crud. we're truthful and honest. so there will be no problems there. remember that obfuscation doesn't work, so there's no point in trying to hide things. a scientist doesn't fear what he'll find at the end, only the ramblings of the fools that don't understand once he's done.
And just suppose there were problems, would you not want to know about them now? Say, for example, we find that we need to get rid of some piece of code. surely better that we find out now, and do it ourselves?
I don't believe that's the case however. Speaking of cases, where's my next beer?
I don't buy much music, 'cos it's all basically crap these days, but I have had the misfortune of ending up with a good CD, but copyprotected (a present, or I would have left it on the shelf). It won't play/rip on the PC. I don't have optical in on the machine, so the only copy I can get of it is good old analogue stereo. At least, with the gear I have here.
Like you say, I can grab a pristine copy from somewhere out there, but for how much longer? And I would worry about that letter, even if it is bullshit... Even the propect of 'whatever the fuck the FUD is these days' is too dangerous for my job.
Guess I'm just having a grumble. Don't like the way this is all going...