You have a degree that says you learnt what you needed to know then.
WRONG.
If that's all that a college degree means, then we better just shut down the entire higher education system. A degree NEVER BECOMES OBSOLETE. That's the whole POINT of an education.
Of course, management would prefer to agree that an education can become obsolete because it gives them yet another excuse to fire someone and destroy their career.
No. That's not life. That's unfair and unacceptable.
an outdated business model.
1. Get an education 2. Work your ass off 3. Get fired.
Is that the new and improved business model?
Times change. Things move on. If you seriously expect to be in a comfy chair in a single office
And management will see to it that the stable job and paycheck won't last long. Maybe long enough to accumulate a little debt, and then back to the want-ads and better not plan on that family or home for another five years.
Take the chance to learn something new and make a change in your life rather than expect the world to owe you a living.
I have a University degree on the wall that says "I've learned what I need to know." And you know what, when I work my ASS OFF for years and years then I AM OWED A FUCKING PAYCHECK.
Fact is that in the 90s it became accepted that spending 3 months learning a programming language made you a "programmer" commanding 80-100k per year.
Myth. I never worked with anyone who had three months experience.
When the apprentices have been trimmed, the craftsmen will still have jobs.
When the apprentices have lost their careers (pun?), and the craftsmen have retired, the industry is destroyed.
If you are in neither group, why do you think you deserve better pay than anyone else who went through four years of college, or acquired a professional skill
False dilemma. Nobody is asking for better pay. They are simply asking not to have their career torn to pieces right after escrow closes on the house for their wife and family.
And management could care less about "four years of college." I could put a PhD and a Nobel Prize on a resume and I couldn't rent a job with a coupon.
If two people with the same skills charge different amounts, the one who charges less gets the job.
Fine, let's see the skills of the other workers. Let's read those resumes and see the source they write. Let's see those skills on the table during the interview. Notice how none of that information is ever available?
All you can do is move to a job where you need a skill that you have and they don't.
After throwing away 10-20 years of education and work. Unfair and unacceptable.
Worked in California. In fact, the "impossible" Worker's Compensation reform was signed into law today. Arnold says "this is what I'm going to do" and he did it, step by step, Democratic Legislature or not.
I guess it sucks when those markets start getting a little _too_ free, eh?
It's not a free market. Free doesn't mean "this group of people cannot, no, WILL NOT compete, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what they do, say or give up."
Even if IT workers here were twice as productive per unit cost, they would still get fired, because "productive" is subjective, while dollars are objective. Any time the argument becomes subjective, the liar cheat fuck managers can lie, cheat and fuck people out of their careers.
Obviously you're happy to pay three times the price for US made clothing.
What if it's better clothing? Notice how the ONLY MEASURE of value is price in these discussions: because it's the measure that gives offshoring an insurmountable advantage, BY DESIGN.
Yes, let's have lots of trade barriers! That _will_ help the profession.
Works for lawyers, doctors, accountants, professors, plumbers, etc.
None of it sounds like isolationism. This entire argument is the fault of the companies who are isolating themselves from society unless society has a credit card. Oh sure, they'll take our money, but they won't employ anyone.
the American IT worker can not compete on even terms if the only consideration is cost. What should American IT workers be doing to differentiate ourselves from our overseas counterparts, to add the kinds of value for employers that will make them want to look beyond direct costs and see other benefits that will make it worthwhile for them to keep these jobs in the US?
This presumes that management is interested in fair competition in the first place, which they aren't. Had this actually been a free market, IT workers would have had the opportunity to match costs or increase "skills" before they were fired and their careers destroyed.
But it's much more profitable to inflict suffering on the powerless and then make a television show about it.
No. Not as long as the average television-advertised car costs about $35,000 (Five years of $400 payments, and you STILL don't own it)
Perhaps they could make the cars simpler by removing the DVD players? Are people so bored that they must be watching movies/television constantly? How about READING a BOOK?
Unless employed, in which case middle management will have a ready excuse to fire the employee and destroy their career. It's really their job. Find a way to fire everyone so they can cut salaries and outsource everything.
BioTech, once considered to be the next innovative sector to help offset the jobs losses from IT offshoring, is showing signs of riding an offshoring wave of its own
YOU'RE KIDDING!!
Why, that's UNBELIEVABLE!! Nobody EVER would have GUESSED!!
Apple simply can't compete on PC hardware. Not at the volume they deliver.
Why must every company have impossible sales numbers to "compete?" Why isn't it possible to simply continue making money on lower volume? (which is precisely what Apple is doing, and doing better than any other company)
I'm saying their hardware isn't profitable.
It's probably more profitable than the $599 machines from Dell.
Apple has some great consumer and professional applications. They have the potential to deliver more.
So why do they need to drop their entire hardware line?
Who would you rather be, Adobe or Apple.
Apple. Adobe doesn't have iPods. Adobe doesn't have Cinema displays. Adobe doesn't have Powerbooks.
Yeah, and nobody wants to buy poems either these days.
Yeah, and soon they won't want to buy novels, or short stories, or watch television for more than 10 minutes, or listen to more than one verse of a song, or read, or think.
It's too much trouble. It's too inconvenient. It's not FAST and EASY, like everything on television says it should be.
When the last poet puts down their pen, how long before the entirety of life takes on the dull gray color and stale smell of money? How long before "nobody cares" isn't just hyperbole?
How long before nobody can form the words to describe how miserable they feel because they can't read?
But for many explanations, it's not really clear what is the cause and what is the effect.
Distance to grocery store: 3 miles Distance to work: 27 miles
Therefore, a person must have a car, or they will be broke and hungry. There is also the fact that there's really no place to go walking in most neighborhoods any more. In fact, seldom do people go outside at all unless they are getting in the car to go somewhere. Bicycles are no better. Suburban blocks are sometimes one mile long, and the distance between shopping centers can be up to 10 miles. Makes a "nice bike ride" into one leg of the iron man.
But, in this society, change, ideas and vision are discouraged by threats of unemployment, starvation and ruin, which is why things like mass transit and maglev trains are never taken seriously. It's unpleasant and depressing, but it's a fact.
Maglev is extraordinarily expensive, noisy, and an engineering solution to what is a civil problem - commuting.
You know, I always find it entertaining when it is suggested that trains are so expensive and such a problem. In Japan, they have trains that are 50 years ahead of our best technology, and they don't seem to have much of a problem with them.
Of course, they also built the longest suspension bridge on the planet and put an airport on water. Maybe they have fewer people saying "it'll never work." Who knows?
If maglev is what it takes to move people off the roads, I pity our civilization.
What it takes to move people off the roads is to move past the 19th century workplace where managers insist on five million lunchpail-carrying peons crawling through the door on their knees to punch a timeclock at the exact same moment. That is the cause of traffic, pollution and waste from automobiles. Period.
t does not happen today for one simple reason: the artificially low cost of travelling by car and by air (thanks to subsidies on roads and on fuel).
Some of my best friends are too.:) I just get somewhat depressed when bright, intelligent people with a lot to contribute are labeled "worthless" by business because they chose to study something other than making money as fast as possible.
So you finally get a chance to put that English Lit. major to use, eh?;)
Yep, guess so. Isn't it funny how people who study the very thing which makes civilization, science, culture, education, government, journalism, literacy, etc. possible is usually the subject of ridicule and derision for the worthlessness of their studies?
What's the joke? English Lit. majors can't get a job? Gee. That's really interesting, because every company depends on the spoken and written word for every last FUCKING dime they make or spend, no matter how smart management thinks they are.
Most people like to celebrate the achievements of culture and science. Without language, not only would there be no culture or science, but we'd also still be living in caves.
Slashdot Mirror
OpenOffice.org looks almost identical to Microsoft Word
Yeah, well it would if it could use more than nine fonts.
50 comments and nobody is bitchgriping about Macromedia Flash, the state-of-the-art Internet multimedia platform.
There should have been at least one thread about "why can't we just go back to gopher and list elements again?" or "what's wrong with 8-bit GIFs?"
Amazing.
At the top of the bubble anybody who oculd put together two lines of HTML code was being hired for over $60K a year.
Wow. I was underpaid. It's still a myth. No job ever advertised for "anyone who can put together two lines of HTML."
You have a degree that says you learnt what you needed to know then.
WRONG.
If that's all that a college degree means, then we better just shut down the entire higher education system. A degree NEVER BECOMES OBSOLETE. That's the whole POINT of an education.
Of course, management would prefer to agree that an education can become obsolete because it gives them yet another excuse to fire someone and destroy their career.
That's life. Deal with it.
No. That's not life. That's unfair and unacceptable.
an outdated business model.
1. Get an education
2. Work your ass off
3. Get fired.
Is that the new and improved business model?
Times change. Things move on. If you seriously expect to be in a comfy chair in a single office
And management will see to it that the stable job and paycheck won't last long. Maybe long enough to accumulate a little debt, and then back to the want-ads and better not plan on that family or home for another five years.
Take the chance to learn something new and make a change in your life rather than expect the world to owe you a living.
I have a University degree on the wall that says "I've learned what I need to know." And you know what, when I work my ASS OFF for years and years then I AM OWED A FUCKING PAYCHECK.
Fact is that in the 90s it became accepted that spending 3 months learning a programming language made you a "programmer" commanding 80-100k per year.
Myth. I never worked with anyone who had three months experience.
When the apprentices have been trimmed, the craftsmen will still have jobs.
When the apprentices have lost their careers (pun?), and the craftsmen have retired, the industry is destroyed.
If you are in neither group, why do you think you deserve better pay than anyone else who went through four years of college, or acquired a professional skill
False dilemma. Nobody is asking for better pay. They are simply asking not to have their career torn to pieces right after escrow closes on the house for their wife and family.
And management could care less about "four years of college." I could put a PhD and a Nobel Prize on a resume and I couldn't rent a job with a coupon.
Regain? Please.
and what workdays?
The workforce here should compete.
Can't compete in a half-inning baseball game.
If two people with the same skills charge different amounts, the one who charges less gets the job.
Fine, let's see the skills of the other workers. Let's read those resumes and see the source they write. Let's see those skills on the table during the interview. Notice how none of that information is ever available?
All you can do is move to a job where you need a skill that you have and they don't.
After throwing away 10-20 years of education and work. Unfair and unacceptable.
Voting won't help.
Worked in California. In fact, the "impossible" Worker's Compensation reform was signed into law today. Arnold says "this is what I'm going to do" and he did it, step by step, Democratic Legislature or not.
I guess it sucks when those markets start getting a little _too_ free, eh?
It's not a free market. Free doesn't mean "this group of people cannot, no, WILL NOT compete, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what they do, say or give up."
Even if IT workers here were twice as productive per unit cost, they would still get fired, because "productive" is subjective, while dollars are objective. Any time the argument becomes subjective, the liar cheat fuck managers can lie, cheat and fuck people out of their careers.
Obviously you're happy to pay three times the price for US made clothing.
What if it's better clothing? Notice how the ONLY MEASURE of value is price in these discussions: because it's the measure that gives offshoring an insurmountable advantage, BY DESIGN.
Yes, let's have lots of trade barriers! That _will_ help the profession.
Works for lawyers, doctors, accountants, professors, plumbers, etc.
None of it sounds like isolationism. This entire argument is the fault of the companies who are isolating themselves from society unless society has a credit card. Oh sure, they'll take our money, but they won't employ anyone.
That's isolationist.
the American IT worker can not compete on even terms if the only consideration is cost. What should American IT workers be doing to differentiate ourselves from our overseas counterparts, to add the kinds of value for employers that will make them want to look beyond direct costs and see other benefits that will make it worthwhile for them to keep these jobs in the US?
This presumes that management is interested in fair competition in the first place, which they aren't. Had this actually been a free market, IT workers would have had the opportunity to match costs or increase "skills" before they were fired and their careers destroyed.
But it's much more profitable to inflict suffering on the powerless and then make a television show about it.
Yes. Are the people RIDING in the car so bored, NOT the people DRIVING, but the people RIDING in the car.
Thank you.
No. Not as long as the average television-advertised car costs about $35,000 (Five years of $400 payments, and you STILL don't own it)
Perhaps they could make the cars simpler by removing the DVD players? Are people so bored that they must be watching movies/television constantly? How about READING a BOOK?
the freedom to be wrong.
Unless employed, in which case middle management will have a ready excuse to fire the employee and destroy their career. It's really their job. Find a way to fire everyone so they can cut salaries and outsource everything.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't outsourcing a shining example of capitalism working exactly as it should?
Capitalism n. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned.
Hmm... I don't see "fuck over your neighbors' careers" in there. Maybe that was in a more recent, less accurate revision.
People always get so bent out of shape about it
No shit? Maybe its because they don't like the idea of being sold out for next quarter's catered lunch.
BioTech, once considered to be the next innovative sector to help offset the jobs losses from IT offshoring, is showing signs of riding an offshoring wave of its own
YOU'RE KIDDING!!
Why, that's UNBELIEVABLE!! Nobody EVER would have GUESSED!!
+1 obvious
Apple simply can't compete on PC hardware. Not at the volume they deliver.
Why must every company have impossible sales numbers to "compete?" Why isn't it possible to simply continue making money on lower volume? (which is precisely what Apple is doing, and doing better than any other company)
I'm saying their hardware isn't profitable.
It's probably more profitable than the $599 machines from Dell.
Apple has some great consumer and professional applications. They have the potential to deliver more.
So why do they need to drop their entire hardware line?
Who would you rather be, Adobe or Apple.
Apple. Adobe doesn't have iPods. Adobe doesn't have Cinema displays. Adobe doesn't have Powerbooks.
Yeah, and nobody wants to buy poems either these days.
Yeah, and soon they won't want to buy novels, or short stories, or watch television for more than 10 minutes, or listen to more than one verse of a song, or read, or think.
It's too much trouble. It's too inconvenient. It's not FAST and EASY, like everything on television says it should be.
When the last poet puts down their pen, how long before the entirety of life takes on the dull gray color and stale smell of money? How long before "nobody cares" isn't just hyperbole?
How long before nobody can form the words to describe how miserable they feel because they can't read?
But for many explanations, it's not really clear what is the cause and what is the effect.
Distance to grocery store: 3 miles
Distance to work: 27 miles
Therefore, a person must have a car, or they will be broke and hungry. There is also the fact that there's really no place to go walking in most neighborhoods any more. In fact, seldom do people go outside at all unless they are getting in the car to go somewhere. Bicycles are no better. Suburban blocks are sometimes one mile long, and the distance between shopping centers can be up to 10 miles. Makes a "nice bike ride" into one leg of the iron man.
But, in this society, change, ideas and vision are discouraged by threats of unemployment, starvation and ruin, which is why things like mass transit and maglev trains are never taken seriously. It's unpleasant and depressing, but it's a fact.
Maglev is extraordinarily expensive, noisy, and an engineering solution to what is a civil problem - commuting.
You know, I always find it entertaining when it is suggested that trains are so expensive and such a problem. In Japan, they have trains that are 50 years ahead of our best technology, and they don't seem to have much of a problem with them.
Of course, they also built the longest suspension bridge on the planet and put an airport on water. Maybe they have fewer people saying "it'll never work." Who knows?
If maglev is what it takes to move people off the roads, I pity our civilization.
What it takes to move people off the roads is to move past the 19th century workplace where managers insist on five million lunchpail-carrying peons crawling through the door on their knees to punch a timeclock at the exact same moment. That is the cause of traffic, pollution and waste from automobiles. Period.
t does not happen today for one simple reason: the artificially low cost of travelling by car and by air (thanks to subsidies on roads and on fuel).
Agreed.
Cue 150 comments of
"yeah but nobody wants to buy a text-based game"
Some of my best friends are liberal arts majors.
:) I just get somewhat depressed when bright, intelligent people with a lot to contribute are labeled "worthless" by business because they chose to study something other than making money as fast as possible.
Some of my best friends are too.
So you finally get a chance to put that English Lit. major to use, eh? ;)
Yep, guess so. Isn't it funny how people who study the very thing which makes civilization, science, culture, education, government, journalism, literacy, etc. possible is usually the subject of ridicule and derision for the worthlessness of their studies?
What's the joke? English Lit. majors can't get a job? Gee. That's really interesting, because every company depends on the spoken and written word for every last FUCKING dime they make or spend, no matter how smart management thinks they are.
Most people like to celebrate the achievements of culture and science. Without language, not only would there be no culture or science, but we'd also still be living in caves.