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Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix
securitas writes "The CSM's Eric Evarts reports on how technology makes new cars too expensive to repair, which may lead to disposable cars. The increased use of expensive electronics, air bags and advanced, lightweight body materials are causing costs to rise. Add to it the cost of specialized training and equipment (for an aluminum-body repair shop: $200,000) or even the cost of new parts alone (xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each), not to mention the knowledge base required (over 1 million pages, available only electronically vs. 100 pages 20 years ago) and a labor shortage. From the article: 'Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.'"
We've got plenty of resources and landfills with tons of space. These are perfect. I hope they also get less than 1 mile to the gallon, because efficiency sucks! Yeah!
goes faster than your new car, handles better, has a real transmission, and is easy and cheap to work on...
power steering is for pussies.
Before long people will be sending thier cars to India to get them fixed ;-)
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
I'd rather have an older, less advanced car that I actually have a chance of fixing. Who needs all this new car technology anyways?
I work as a car stereo installer, we installed a high end stereo into a new lexus, the stereo was defective and ended out shorting a circuit, for some reason the computer that was tied in with the stereo (for door chimes I think) got fried aswell., Ended up costing the shop 700$ for a replacement part.
As these cars get more and more advanced its getting harder for doityourselfers to even attempt to modify or maintian them.
...Pintos, for example. Problem with them was that they disposed of the owners too...
--- Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Does this mean they are hiring? Yay me!
For example, the world's bestselling vehicle, Ford's F150 pickup, uses a magnesium radiator mount - which gets crunched every time an F150 runs into anything. Magnesium is strong and light, but brittle.
If the radiator mount is strong, how can it be brittle at the same time?
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
No. Not as long as the average television-advertised car costs about $35,000 (Five years of $400 payments, and you STILL don't own it)
Perhaps they could make the cars simpler by removing the DVD players? Are people so bored that they must be watching movies/television constantly? How about READING a BOOK?
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Another bonus: a back-yard mechanic can work on it...
...to grease monkey?!
:p
No thanks!
Thank you! Thank you! That would be post 2000! w00t!
The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.
Woohoo - IT can people can finally have jobs again!
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
Ahhhh so THAT is why the spaceship had an RS232 port.... everything had to be accessible via a Mac to enable proper support.
And I thought it was rubbish....
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I'm sure a portion of this trend is a ploy to keep the repairs of auto's in-house. A Ford dealership, for example, makes a LOT of money doing repairs. If they can force a clentele, its gravy money, of which a chunk goes back to the Ford headquarters. Seems like a sane progression, now that manufacture costs for these specialty components are probably WAY down for the manufacturers.
Nothing to do with bikes, but are companies investigating the ability to recycle cars in a fairly efficient fashion? Is it even possible to do so? It seems that this would prevent the Grand Canyon in the US from filling up with old H2s and whatnot but still not cost a ton like repairing complex cars.
Anyone heard anything about this?
True story.
Will there be less ride pimping the future? This concerns me, because I think all cars need shoe racks, waterfalls, and Playstation's (Whatever the current version) in the back. You also can't have enough DVD players or speakers in a car.
I could have just taken that job as a mechanic straight out of High School and built my skills up to the point that I could be making good money in the automotive industry rather than spent all those years and all that money in college to get to the same point? I'm feeling a little depressed.
'And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo Every day you meet quite a few...'
This author is crazy, its easy to fix a car, just need a roll of duct tape.
I remember a time when it was easy to get under the hood of your car, do tune-ups, and perform other ordinarily easy maintenance functions ... without having to take the car to a maintenance shop or forbid, a dealer! I've seen these changes occur slowly to the point where it requires special tools (and skills) just to do simple things. I don't even try anymore ... I've seen it in our shop where the technicians are sometimes baffled by problems because they can't get specs from the manufacturer. I've actually had to wait months to get replacement parts for a Ford Explorer because the car is considered too new for generic parts! Go figure. So is this any surprise?
Would you prefer vehicles that didn't have those messy inconvenient airbags, that never quite get repaired anyway?
Where are you shipping that Mars??
Seriously, an HID conversion kit will run you 700 bucks a pair, if your replacing your high and low beam 1400 bucks... to replace an HID light costs just a little over twice what a traditional halogen bulb will cost.
Anyone that pays 3k for an HID bulb got taken to the cleaners and doesnt even know how to do a simple froogle search.
Whenever my wife drives my car there's a 10% chance she breaks something. Mirrors are ductaped on, car has long scratches in the bodywork on both sides, bumpers are cracked. Cost of repair is already more than resale cost of car.
rant
/rant
They want your money.
They do not want you to fix it yourself.
They want to sell you a whole new part every time!
They do not want you to buy a part from someone else.
They want you to get then to fix it in one of their repairshops.
Do you guys think that the further we go, introducing high-end technology cars, the more the mecanics are loosing customers?
.02
We are going from mecanics to electronics and that's not a really good thing for the current mecanics.
my
it's sorta like buying a new PC if you're a typical (windows) user: you get all manner of doodads you don't really need, b/c that's all anybody is making anymore.
ed
a) If the car repair industry requires IT gues, well heck, better for us hacker and hobbyists out there!
b) While the cars become more complex, the tools to fix them become better. Nowadays a mechanic plugs a laptop into your car and the car tells him/her "the fuel pump is 10% off, should I readjust?". 15 years ago mechanics would do something closely resembling forensics to figure out which wire was fried. This is done today in seconds.
Clearly some complex parts are hard to repair, but instead of dumping them, export them to third world countries where they will be miracolously repaired....
Newer cars are being treated like appliances rather than machines. Machines you have to maintain, appliances you replace.
The problem with this is that cars _are_ indeed machines. People are just lazy.
People no longer care if "that thing's got a hemi" They just want 50mpg and oil that never has to be replaced.
It's sad.
up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
*makes note to limit user processes...
Those headlights are annoying. It looks like you have your highbeams on all the time with those new type of headlights.
the 1990 Volvo 240 wagon, and sleeps better at night knowing that my insurance company and the police can't download my driving history from a black box, either.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Car parts are too expensive to begin with.
A $3000 lightbulb? why.. it's a piece of glass and a filiment.. maybe the ballast.. wait.. that's just a bunch of wire.. and a few capacitors..
body shop tools.. like those to work aluminum.. when was the last time you saw an aluminum bodied car.. maybe only on exotics.. you get what you pay for.. wreck your exotic.. be prepared to pay the $ to fix it.. most car bodys are steel.. and you don't fix the panel anymore.. you just weld in a new one.. even saturns.. which have plastic panels.. grab the plastic welder and go to town on it..
supply / demand / stupid people who will pay
...out of wood. And replaced horses with engines. Can't grow one anymore. Gotta buy a whole new one.
Who the hell is paying 3 grand for a headlight? You're telling me one headlight is going to account for 5% of the cost of a luxury car?
How can you fix this problem? Stop buying new cars when you car is perfectly good. Plus it will save you a few bills each month.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
nuf sed
Table-ized A.I.
No, they just support the idea of couching your disgust in more creative terms. "Gee, that stupid idea is great" is lame. "Gee, now I can get a free car with my lighter" makes you think a bit before you get it.
"Troll" can sometimes be defined as an attempt at +1 Funny that shoots... and misses.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Perhaps strong against a sustained force, but brittle against a sharp impact (or vise-versa)? If you think titanic-like the hull was actually very strong, but under cold/ocean conditions the metal became more fragile allowing it to be punctured.
I Have bought cars like a Bic Lighter for years. Get a Cheap one in the 500 to 1000 dollar price range, drive it till it breaks down and go get another one.
With New Car payments in the 400 dollar plus range if an 800 dollar car lasts over two months (most do) you are ahead of the people driving new cars. The Champ junker I bought was a 200 dollar 1977 Caprice that lasted 3 years and still fetched 75 bucks from the scrap yard!
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
"We're moving closer and closer to the disposable car," says Dan Bailey, an executive vice president at Carstar, the largest auto-body repair franchise in the United States.
Um...Am I the only one who thinks there are probably numerous reasons why this is a bad idea/statement? Disposable Car? People in other countires must love our frame of mind. If a brand new BMW (as in story) costs more to replace the air bags than the car, than somebody please, sell me a BMW sans airbags. I'll throw in a five point harness, reinforce the subframe, and sign a waiver. I think I have a rain check for a mid-life crisis around here somewhere....
No... really... disposable car = huh? Recycled car / rethink industry as a whole = hah!
besides, does anyone here in the IT industry really want to figure out why the 2010 Ford Festiva is having a hard time finding drivers (pun?) for it's various parts?...
It is ironic hearing this news from the auto industry. Replacement parts for cars have been notoriously marked up. I went in to purchase a knob for my car's A/C (a plain old molded plastic knob about the size of a golf ball) and they wanted to charge me $12 for it. After a bit of cajoling on my behalf, I was able to get it for cost: $0.79.
I doubt that the parts themselves are too expensive to replace that makes some repairs seem unfeasible (after all, the automakers get parts so cheap in bulk), but rather it has been realized that they cannot add that extra 1000% markup on a per part basis, so why not make the consumer buy a whole new car? (where the markup is still 200-500% from cost)
increased use of expensive electronics
The use of electronics in cars was supposed to make them cheaper not more expensive. The problem isn't generally the 'expensive electronics' the problem usually is that there aren't enough trained technicians to fix electronic problems. Most mechanics are trained in, well mechanics, not electronics.
xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each
I'm thinking this isn't a general problem. How many people are buying cars that have $6000 worth
of headlights alone? Damn, those must be some mighty fine headlights, why not just equip the car with nightvision goggles, it would be cheaper.
Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.
I've actually been thinking that automotive electronics diagnostics & repair could be a good field to get into - it can't be outsourced and the demand is there.
No, it can't. I think the rating you're looking for is "Overrated."
Don't tell me, they were popular in Soviet Russia
Table-ized A.I.
My father works for a company that produces aftermarket automotive wiring. He's noticing a lot of products that are designed to supplant this kind of individual part - by combining multiple parts, they prevent people from replacing just the part in question.
So instead of replacing your spark plugs (~$15), you have to replace the plugs, the wiring, etc. The total cost? More than $100 for some. It's intentional - it's like soldering your CPU to your motherboard so you have to replace the whole board in order to upgrade/replace your CPU. I believe Packard Bell used to do this, and look where they are now.
Cars have been very hard to maintain for years, well before the avent of EFI, computers and all.
Engine bays are so small these days (either because the car is a compact or because the emphasis is put on the roomiest interior possible) that one often has to drop the entire engine to change things like a timing chain or an alternator.
I have an econobox here that I brought to a small garage because I have a sump gasket leak, and the guy said that he'd take so much time just getting the engine out and back in that it's just not worth fixing. (On a side note, modern cars are supposed to be environmentally friendly, but cars that are left leaking oil or plain junked because they're not economically worth fixing don't seem very green to me).
Anyway, the short is, on my old '69 Charger, I can pass full size regular tool around the engine and still have spare room to work, while I'd need very expensive, specialized tools, and very flexible cervicals to work on an econobox. And that's not counting the electronics at all...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
If working, playing or otherwise surviving in the PC world has taught the Slashdot community any lessons at all, it is that the matured concept of standardized modules combined with competition can lower costs incredibly.
Auto manufacturers can go a LONG way to lower the cost of cars and car repair by creating a variety of standardized systems. While it's true that to some extent that style and creativity would be hampered by the inclusion of modular standards for automobiles, the cost issue can be quickly and effectively addressed.
Consider the various levels of standardization that we already enjoy. There are standardized tool sizes. There are standardized bays for electronics in the dash such as radios, CD and even DVD players. The incredibly thin margins on the still surviving PC components market proves out that making automobile components even more standard and modularized could easily address the concern over the rising cost of automotive repair.
In many ways, if the concept were more widely addressed, a great number of matters could be addressed such as handling recalls of various components and even upgrades.
This could open the door to smaller manufacturers to get into the third party parts business... which is exactly why the idea will probably never be realized.
I guess there must be consumer demand... Last year my wife and I were all set to purchase our first new car (we're 35 and consider cars a horrid waste of money), but we simply could not find a "base" model. Everything has power windows, locks, CD player (actually wanted that).
God forbid you want a car that doesn't have all the crap or *GASP* not an automatic transmission (I'll take the lower gas milage and increased service problems for $800 alex!").
Anway, when we could only find ONE manual, base moodel subaru Forester in the entire STATE and we didn't like that color, we bought a used one at an auction threw a friend for $7k less, 2 years old 28K miles (this is why I don't buy new!).
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
My car, (1992 bmw), Im scared of doing anything more than relatively basic maintainence. (coil packs, oil chage, etc.). You need a handheld device to just get the error codes out of the computer.
Looks like I'll continue repairing my own vehicle along with the family/friend vehicles.
Really though, many of the repair manuals (I often use the Haynes manuals myself) available for vehicles contain fairly detailed information for troubleshooting and repairing vehicles. I do find that the tools that I have to purchase are becoming more expensive, but it still beats going to the mechanic in most cases. Of course I always look for an excuse to buy new tools.
I find that most people are afraid to attempt even simple repairs so the high tech problems won't change the consumer behavior of running to the shop for any problem. The trend will lead to higher tech mechanics though (higher salary, higher repair bill).
Now the one thing I would appreciate from the auto manufacturer is simplifying the onboard diagnostics. I'll even settle for the blinking LEDs sequences I've seen in some of my older cars.
It's worth pointing out that profit margins for new vehicles are quite large -- I think the last figure I heard, on a variable cost basis, was $3,000 for a $20,000 car. Fixed costs are, of course, enormous -- R&D, testing, compliance, advertising, sunk costs in the factory, etc -- but whipping up one more Corolla is pretty cheap.
In other words, relief to the insurance industry will probably come via mandated replacements by the manufacturer, at cost (or maybe cost+10%). This could get worked into warranty programs, first as a perk, then as something greater.
Keep in mind, if your car is totalled, who's to say you'll buy the same brand next time around? Properly managed (i.e. worked into the cost of each car sold), this isn't a bad strategy for keeping customers loyal to your brand.
Manufacturer replacement is thus almost guaranteed to occur.
--Dan
Why would anyone want a $3K headlight, or a car that required them? Isn't there a limit to the candlepower a headlight can legally have when driving in a city? Wouldn't any old headlight be good enough for most purposes?
Cars with "features" like that are just conspicuously wasteful. Target market: Paris Hilton, etc. As if paying more for something makes it better.
I'm getting to the point of being shocked speechless by all the willfull stupidity in the world. I paid less than $3000 for a car that I drove over 150K miles (Oldsmobile, still running, I got a car with 4 doors instead when I had kids) now that's what they want for a headlight????? This wastefulness makes me sick.
As an owner of a VW Beetle (wife's), I thought I'd be happy to own something that should have been as easy (and cheap) to fix as my 1983 Rabbit. Recently, it ran rough, hard to keep idle, stalled under load. After an oxygen sensor ($180), a mass air flow sensor ($60), a new set of spark plug wies ($120), she was running as good as it gets. These are just *part* prices - No labor. It's insane. This is a damn 4 cylinder, most of em should pass emissions pretty easily. Squeezing the last drop of horsepower out of an engine had made it nothing but costly and unreliable when something breaks. I used to pull and rebore/rebuild engines back in the day, got a BsCsci, and even I'm hesitant/reluctant/afraid to touch anything on the emissions/electrical/ecm system. WTF?
What really gets me going is that I took it to VW to get the ECm re-flashed because emissions is coming up for me. Told em to do warranty repair/recall work only. They did it, but they "checked the car" because it's been a while since it's been to the VW dealerships. They found that the coolant and brake line fluid's PH balance was off (I can't even make this up!) They were more than happy to perform the fluid flush ($220).
HEY! While you're at it check my headlight fluid and don't skimp on the halogen fluid!
Goddamn I hate these new cars.
-B
Most of these cars get "written off", bought by salvage specialists, and then rebuilt using parts from other wrecked cars (which are also "too expensive" to repair). It makes perfect economic sense to do so. But the way the laws and insurance companies work, it's almost impossible for the original owner to do this. It pretty much has to be done through a salvage title.
The rise in parts prices isn't limited to brand new cars... I've seen some normal maintenance items (belts, filters, etc.) on my 1992 car rise by a factor of three in the past few years (and yes, the new models use those same parts!)
My S4 is on its fourth transmission. Thankfully the previous 3 were covered by warranty because they cost $6800 each. That's $20400 worth of transmissions. Ouch.
:)
FYI, they were all broken by the previous owner, who was a bit hard on them I think.
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Since the advent of computers & other high tech components in automobiles, people have long been predicting the same thing.
Honestly, how many 1970 automobiles do pass on your way to work?
Consumers buy new cars every few years regardless of the maintenance costs on their trade in cars, and people will never stop crashing their cars & filling salvage yards with plenty of recyclable parts.
In a sense, cars have been "disposable" for many years.
Leased vehicles are "disposed" from one class of consumers, down to another class and so on.
This reminds me of a book I read about garbology (can't remember the title), where scientist were baffled about the low quantity of washers & dryers found in dumps. They discovered that broken appliances were exported to central and south America to be rebuilt, and that many of the appliances used there were decades old!
Glad there's no moderation abuse here on Slashdot.
This trend is also driving mechanics out of business. It used to be that a car would generate serious $$$ in terms of annual scheduled maintenance.
So consider the plight of independent mechanics - not only does it now require the equivalent of a college degree's education to understand most cars, but it's also less rewarding because there are fewer opportunities for maintenance.
This is a double-hit.
--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu
Pull on it quickly, it breaks into 2
Hit it with a hammer, it shatters.
These guys are on crack. Auto dealers get a good deal of their profits from repairs. They aren't about to let the carmakers close off this business.
As far as the headlight cost, a full conversion kit including ballasts, headlights and wiring harness typically costs $500. The actual lights are about $50 ea. Not $3000.
This could be a good sign for the prospect of robotic cars. I expect that when self-driving cars hit the streets in a few years there will be a decrease in car buying. For one thing they'll be expensive. For another, why let the car sit in the parking lot after it drives you to work, when it can go back home and ferry other family members around. Net result: more one-car families.
Next step is why let the car sit in the home garage at all? Instead of buying the car just subscribe to a taxi service -- a fleet of robotic cars runs around picking up riders continuously.
The fact that cars in general are getting too expensive to maintain could give an encentive for this pattern. I think in 30 years very few people will actually own their own cars. My house will be have a lot more space when I don't need a garage!
I was just thinking the other day about open-source automobiles.
We may joke about a car with the hood welded shut, but we're just about getting to that point.
It cost me $1500 last week to have some transmission work done. The problem: computer needed reset and retrained.
Why can't I just download an OSS ROM and flash it myself?
I'd love to see somebody take a Tormenta approach to automobile hardware.
Ally is more difficult because it melts at a lower temp than mild steel so if you use the usual methods it will just blow a hole in the ally. It can also make the weld more brittle if done incorrectly. However, it can still be done - it just takes practice.
shame I wouldn't know where to look for my big end.
I've actually been thinking that automotive electronics diagnostics & repair could be a good field to get into - it can't be outsourced and the demand is there.
I am not so sure about that. Remote-controlled Mars-probe like robots will probably be readily available pretty soon. Communications bandwidth is the primary bottleneck, and it falls in price in a Moores-law-like pattern. Plus, such remote-bots can repair each other, bringing down the cost of them. But, that is another 10 or so years away. Hopefully we can retire by then.
Table-ized A.I.
Interesting.
I'm assuming that all those people whining about outsourcing are now going to go out and retrain as car techs, right? Because the only reason you were whining wasn't your lack of desire to "adapt to new ways of doing business" (as we keep telling the RIAA to do), but the lack of an opportunity to do so. Right?
Abolish cars altogether.
Between bicycles and public transportation, we don't even need cars for personal use.
Maybe this could be made possible in large cities and metropolises?
The sad thing is that in places like China, where the bicycle has been the best form of transportation for decades, the increase in income is leading to more pollution, more congestion, more traffic accidents and incidents, etc.
capitalism isn't as great as we are convinced it is.
No kidding, how are these allowed when in many jurisdictions you can get a ticket if you have your high-beams on when there is on coming traffic.
I BRIEFLY flash my highbeams at anyone who's headlights blind me because of brightness to notify them they need to dim thier lights. But over the last couple of years I've had more and more people respond by turning on thier brights because they had these lights and it only apeared they were running with thier high beams on. I go from blinded to blinded and in pain!
I don't care how much better you can see the road, it doese no good if you get hit head on by some poor schmuck you just blinded.
Mycroft
(ps all you idiots who jack your truck up and don't recalibrate the beam angle on your headlights so as not to blind oncoming traffic should be forced to drive a small 3-4cylinder 2door for a month, at night!)
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
in Arcata point at my old Suburban and tell me I'm soooooooooooo insensitive to mother earth and abuse her resources. I see it as recycling, I can keep the thing running forever on rebuilt parts. Just imagine the cost of resources to mine, refine, forge and build a new one? Not to mention throwing it out !!!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
"Is there a Mrs. Goodwrench?" Mostly likely not if it's an IT worker. Maybe the the new term should be "GeekWrench"
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
with the hood welded shut?
I guess they need to change that to:Have you bought a car with the hood welded shut?
I know this- I can do a lot of work myself on my '69 Chevy - but it sucks to drive compared to a new car- and the only thing safe about it is that it is huge and made of medal. Just lap belts- no airbags - drum brakes all around. I could go on. There are no good old days for cars. If it is safer- easier to drive and more fuel efficient- I'll pay somebody to fix it.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
"The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry." The day they start selling cars running Microsoft Windows is the day I start walking to work.
Right now I've got my main ride partially dissassembled. The tires are off, the front brakes are apart, and I have to finish next weekend after I grab a few parts that surprised me.
This is the first time I've done disc brakes solo, and probably the last. My last car wasn't that hard to do the front brakes... this car is a bit newer, and it seems that they purposely do things in as inconvenient a manner as possible (rotor bolts on the inside requiring the steering knuckle etc to be removed).
I'm lucky though, this car doesn't have ABS. Most newer cars do, which means that it will be much harder for me to service the brakes. In fact, it seems odd to me that the progression of electronics that I can *add* to my car is comparable to the electronics that I can't *service* on my car. My old tapedeck was replaced by a CD player, then an MP3 CD deck, and finally I am working on outfitting it with a nice mini-ITX PC to handle DVD-audio playback, wireless syncing, etc. It seems very odd to me that while I can easily add all these rather "complex" things to my car, a decade from now I probably won't be able to change my own oil due to the triple-sensor-electronic-bypass oil filter...
Now, most of you are mere Blue Collar Grease Monkeys.
a Little joke, don't get your scrips in a bunch.
Cars are major investments, especially in the USA where finding a reasonably desirable one will run you 20k easy. My point here is, this means insurance companies will be totalling more cars after accidents rather than repairing them. The rule of thumb is, if the repairs cost more than the car blue books as, they total it. Cars depreciate the second you drive them off the lot but repairing them has gotten more and more expensive. This will lead to much higher insurance premiums for EVERYONE.
This is only going to become more of a problem as more hybrids are released. Your average mechanic is what he is because he grew up working on cars with his dad/friends etc.. It's very much a lifestyle worn as a badge of honor by the blue collar salt of the earth crowd. They no more want to use a computer than many of us want to get our hands dirty under the hood of our cars.
The only saving grace here is that repairs seem to be less frequent on newer automobiles. I have less than 30k miles on my 2000 Ford F250 and have yet to need any under the hood work.
14 bolts and 5 hoses and my '66 mustang's engine comes out.
I need 12 tools to do the majority of any work I need to do, all of which are available at sears, and for a total cost of under $100.
No need for a multi-thousand dollar device to tell me my air filter needs changing.
Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
Sig changed for readability by G.W.
hearing about a supposed shortage of skilled labor in this country. That is such bulls---. Heaven forbid that a business (or the government) would actually have to INVEST in its people to keep them competative. (Or that the educational institutions would have to LOWER their TUITION charges to get more people in.) How hard it is to be a business owner these days with all of these profits and stupid people.
Some of the cars made in Soviet Russia made the Pinto look like a Ferrari.
-B
How the hell did this get modded "Score: 5, Insightful"? Let's see what we've got here:
I'd rather have an older, less advanced car that I actually have a chance of fixing.
Ok, I gather from this that older, less advanced cars were easier and cheaper to fix. Based on the title of this story, this obersation earns you: (Score: -1, Redundant).
Who needs all this new car technology anyways?
(Score: -1, Luddite Troll)
Plain carbon steel is generally easy to deal with.
Alloy steels are trickier, but generally not that different as they are still ferrous metals. I think this is what the poster is refering to.
Non ferrous metals can be totally different, you can't just weld aluminum, Titanium or Tungsten, and that is the point of the article.
These materials require very different procedures.
If cars were more like computers (Yeah, we all know that old joke), air bags would be pretty much interchangable across manufacturers, as would be headlights, and transmissions. Just we can spec out a computer with our choice of processor, video card, and speakers, we should be able to do the same with cars. Tires already work that way, why can't more auto parts??
...and they improve the herd, too. Despite Nader's objections, I think Darwin would approve.
It may be cheaper to ship the car to India and back...
My first car was a late model '76 Chevy Malabu Classic (LEAD SLED), puke green, rusted dent in the right rear from a truck smacking it at 40mph. I got that car for $900 of news paper delivery money and it lasted me from about 1987/88 to about 2003 with heavy milage for a college student traveling from Lancaster PA to Harrisburg PA each day along with work and other things.
:) God forbid I ever do anything like that with my current 2003 Saturn Ion. It'd be totaled probebly on the first hill I would hit or short out from high water.
What finally killed it was inspection.. Seems that two weeks before we had a huge rainstorm that flooded everywhere and I was driving friends home. I was traveling flooded back roads and the car went in to water that was high enough to seep in through the floor. Bottomed it out like twice, ah it was great.. Got them home and drove myself home.
Anyhow the inspection revealed that I broke the rear axel and smashed the transmition housing. Yet it still drove like nothing was wrong. Atleast to me anyway.
Granted the car I have now is nice compared to the old one, but I know what I would a)feel safer in and b)know which was less complicated to fix on my own if I had to.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
i've seen this with computers owned by small companies and individuals. it gets a software problems that *could* be fixed, but it would take time ($) to diagnose. or it could be reinstalled, along with their software (again, $). i would say that i've seen 4 people just buy new computers rather than fix (somewhat) simple software problems.
not good.
eric
Your depressed? Try being an ME/EE who can't even get a job a WalMart? Yea the mechanic/ electrician/ plumber looks like a safer bet. But who knew? Oh well, there's always McVeggie, in India.
Take your car to India and have it serviced there. I hear they work cheap.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
Proprietary interfaces. Closed source. Registry. Special training required. No one understands the entire system. Wears out every three years requiring a replacement. When a system gets all goofed up and you can't figure out what is wrong with it, it is easier to just rebuild it from scratch.
The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry
"We're moving closer and closer to the disposable car," says Dan Bailey, an executive vice president at Carstar, the largest auto-body repair franchise in the United States.
well duh! of course the auto repair industry is unhappy about this. I'm sure they aren't happy about any loss of business, whether it be to dealers or just better quality cars that don't need as much maintinence. Good riddance I say. Doesn't anyone remember when you could only expect 100-150k miles out of a car? How about severe body rust after only a few years (I live near the coast). How about all the independant repair shops that just rip people off (seems to have gotten better since the 80s).
Also, so airbags are expensive? What's their point? Should we do away with them? I suppose it would be better if the teen didn't walk away from the accident -- yep, that would've been worth 30K. This reminds me of people that buy used or crappy 3rd world climbing equipment to save a few bucks.
No thank you. I'll take my *advanced* car that requires a specially trained tech to work on...even if it is more expensive, at least it'll be fixed correctly. The tech can at least run the diagnostics checks and has training on common problems, etc. The independent shops just take wild guesses and start replacing things.
\forall code \in C, \frac{\Delta readability(code)}{\Delta t} < 0
If specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... how come the technicians at my Acura dealership all look like they just got out of prison?
. SLASHDOT: Home of the vicious nerd.
So if you bought the M3 don't go blaming BMW just because you forgot to figure in the cost of maintenance.
...that people are spending $3000 for hi-tech hi-beams? Have people really become THAT stupid? My god it's worse than I thought.
Un-news
"Now Nissan and other automakers have started using taillights with multiple LEDs rather than a single inexpensive light bulb. The LEDs light faster in a panic stop to give drivers following more warning, but they're also more expensive to replace."
Come on, the LEDs faster than incandescents? Perhaps the quantum state required to fire off a LED is a bit faster than the time needed to heat those electrons off the tungsten wire, but I would be awfully suprised if that turns out to help avoiding accidents.
Part of the problem has nothing to do with the costs of the technology used to repair the damage. It's the cost to keep skilled employees fed, watered and insured. So whether they're pounding out steel or aluminum, it costs money.
And who these days, fixes electronics parts. You replace the little buggers. Anybody out there doing mobo parts replacement? (this being /., I'm sure there are, but it's not a Usual Thing).
And I love OBD (On Board Diagnostics). You never have to think! Just Replace(TM).
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
But all machines break down over time. Eventually, your old car will no longer be perfectly good.
:)
What would happen if manufacturors stoped making replacement parts for old cars? Oh wait...they are already doing this!
Our culture is addicted to cars, and we simply NEED them to work. If we can't find the parts we need, we will grumble and complain as we hand our cash over to the evil dealers for a new car that can't be repaired.
This is nothing more than a natural consequence of capitalism.
No one ever accused slashbots as being flexible thinkers.
Mod me down as troll but why is it that there has to be a joke about outsourcing everytime some topic is posted on /.? How many cars are actually *made* and not assembled in america? I believe most of the things are made or imported from elsewhere in the world. Hell the only thing that I have seen Made in America are my leather belts.
Things do change so deal with it. What is funny is that the *Americans* still live in reservaitions.
Disclaimer: I am an Indian who can't take a joke.
Just an example... my sister bought a car that came with daytime running lights (DRL). Well, she moved to a location where they are illegal. Too bad the mechanics can't figure out how to disable them....
It is true that cars are harder to work on nowadays, but back up for a second and recall how unreliable cars used to be. Nowadays, it's not uncommon for a vehicle to go for 100,000 miles with zero major problems. That was not very common 20 years ago.
Just for example, there are lots of things that used to have to be performed on vehicles just to keep them driveable:
-Adjust engine timing. Don't need to do that anymore, computer takes care of it.
-Clean the carburator. Clean the points and distributor. All of that's gone with electronic fuel injection.
-The whole "tune up" procedure is obsolete, as the engine computer keeps fuel mixtures, timings, and environmental conditions in top performance at all times.
Granted, you can still perform the generic maintenance you're used to, such as changing fluids, etc. Cars have become easier to troubleshoot as far as sensors go. Simply hook up the diagnositc tool, and it tells you what sensor is broken or what's acting up. Whip out the shop manual, and it'll tell you exactly where to look.
Modern cars are documented so well, anyone who gets manufacturer support can work on the cars.
The only thing changing is that shadetree mechanics are getting pushed out of the game, but that's inevitable with the level of technology. I don't hear anyone complaining they can't swap out individual memory chips of thier PCs or solder parts onto their motherboards anymore to change options. Hell, you don't even have to set jumpers anymore. It's part of the evolution of the technology.
Also, the article is slightly wrong about Xenon headlamps, the whole system costs $3,000, but the bulbs themselves are only a few hundred bucks. Granted, anyone who owns a vehicle with those headlights is highly unlikely to be doing his own maintenance to begin with.
After you undergo elastic deformation (where the item returns back to its original shape, within tolerance), you reach plastic deformation, where the item will not return to its original shape.
Different materials have different strength ratings for compression (crushing), tension (pulling), sheer opposite forces in a different place), moment (bending), etc.
Ductility the ability of an item to take on a new shape. Although it's different from tensile (tension) strength, ductility is a not a 'strength', it's a measure of maleability.
The above's off the top of my head (civil engineering undergrad 7yrs ago that I never did anything with), but the following seems to explain some of the concepts:Oh -- and don't forget that strength is typically a function of temperature. [steel's biggest enemy is fire, even though it doesn't burn.... it just becomes really weak, really quickly]
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
The first car I actually bought was a brand new, just off the assembly line 1983 VW Bug (made in Mexico and not available in the States). It was a little more "hi-tech" than the ones from the 60's (it had an electronic radio instead of a manual one) but it was a tank. Nothing could stop it; it could take all kinds of abuse (and believe me I put it through all kinds of abuse); didn't care about weather, roads, anything. Hell, when the battery would die ('cause someone would constently forget to turn the headlights off) just put it in second, give it a little push and pop the clutch. Man, that was a car.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Bullwhoey- they don't cost anything near that, even dealer list price! Talk about ignorant- the writer probably looked up what the "option" cost in the brochure for a new car. That pricing isn't even remotely realistic- anyone who knows anything about new car pricing knows that isn't even what you'd pay if you negotiated(MSRP is for suckers and Saturn customers. Oh wait, that's redundant).
Which brings us to the parts distribution system; there's so many hands involved between you and the company that made the part it's not even funny, and each one wants a nice healthy piece of the pie. Sample: eastern european company(the true original manufacturer) -> Bosch -> Audi -> Worldpac -> Local Parts Co -> Your Mechanic -> You. This can vary wildly based on the part, the marque, etc; some parts are dealer-only, which means you or your mechanic now have to go through the local dealer. If you're lucky, your mechanic has an account with Worldpac and you either get parts slightly cheaper or he makes more money on parts. If you're not lucky, your mechanic has to get the parts from a local parts supplier, who tags on their own chunk of change to the price.
Want a big scary monopoly? Worldpac certainly qualifies with a huge portion of the US market in parts; there's virtually nobody else in the business; there is no equivalent of Sun, Apple, etc; it's just them. They're pretty clever about the web, too- all those two-guys-in-a-garage online parts houses which sell parts to various enthusiast groups are getting their parts from exactly the same place, Worldpac. Worldpac packages them and then gives a return address matching the company you thought you were ordering from. The 2-guys are little more than a marketing front("we're BMW enthusiasts! When we answer line 2. Line 1, we're Honda enthusiasts!") Worldpac quickly figured out that was the best way to sell to guys who wanted to buy parts from fellow enthusiasts (aka not "The Man", ie, Worldpac), and even better still, when Worldpac fucks up(and they often do), guess who takes the phone call? Guess who gets sacrificed faster than a lamb at a pagan festival? Guess who quietly makes a deal with 2-other-guys-in-a-garage to be one of their new (insert car marque here) parts site?
Please help metamoderate.
Many local mechs in my town can not even service cars newer than 1994 since the manufacters will not sell them a USB-like computer scanning tool which simply accesses encrypted error codes to help debug problems and reset internal computers. These basic tools are usually free to dealers, but 3rd party mechs either are told it's too properitary to give to them, or (usually when the law requires it) are told it costs $30-130k to buy the device.
The markup on OEM parts is also ridiculous, a $15 hubcap will cost $55 OEM.. and that trend follows custom parts only available from the dealer.
and their respective enclosures.. not just the bulb.
and a labor shortage.
Wait, I thought we were in an employement slump?
Says the article:
I don't get it. How does a light bulb need to be activated?I mean really, straighten out the mount, install the reflector assembly, screw in the bulb, mount lens/cover deal, connect three freaking wires and test! Have car guys started putting chips in the lighting controller that talk to a chip in the light and will refuse to co-operate with non-OEM parts?
It's an obvious answer, but surely they can't be that freaking greedy and stupid. They can't possibly use the "It could damage the printer or give unsatisfactory prints" excuse like the inkjet guys use. This has me freaked out.
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
My cousin has been a mechanic nearly all his life (44) - his dad owned a garage. As an engineer, I could always relate to his job, since there are many parallels. It has been interesting to see the evolution of cars and how his skills changed. He went from a greasy mechanic working under the car, pulling out 500 lb. transmissions, to an electronics wizard fixing computer-controlled transmissions from the driver's seat. The coolest thing was watching him drive-by-wire using the diagnostic computer.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
"Though you were joking, these kinds of jobs are exactly the kind of job that won't get outsourced. A good friend of mine owns a plumbing business and he's done very well. Like any business, if you're smart and diligent, you can do well."
Don't need to be outsourced, simply insourced. There's also the fact that one could make the product in such a way that it's cheaper to dispose of it than fix it. Plus as someone else ponted out, being an Automotive Mechanic isn't everything it's cracked up to be. Yeah the grass is always greener on the other side.
Introduced in 1986. Produced with very few changes through 2001. Cheap and easy to fix, cheap and easy to find parts. Nothing whacky. Jeeps go best.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Cars had better get safer, because drivers sure aren't.
I am an American and I drive a 1993 Toyota Celica. It has no problems and about 150k miles. I am very confident I will get 300k or more out of it too. Dont get me wrong, Ive had a Jeep , 2 F150's, 2 Toyotas, 2 Hondas, 2 Mustangs, and they all have their perks but if you go used and buy foreign then you wont need to complain about high prices of new cars and new parts. Yes these foreign cars have more expensive parts, but hell, if they dont break because they were built smart then you dont need to buy them. I will always be a classic mustang fan though :)
You have your toys and you have your logic. Choose wisely.
-- The box said Windows 2000 or better... so I installed Linux
Even if your car remains accident-free, some of today's high-tech parts can leave you with big repair bills. The celebrated find for car thieves these days is xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights. They can cost up to $3,000 each. That's just for the part, not labor.
...
d lights-hid.com/
I don't know where they got this, but I totally disagree.
Take a look at
http://www.coolbulbs.com/
http://www.brighthea
The bulbs themselves cost anywhere from $30 to $100 a set. It may cost a few *hundred* dollars to replace the ballast, and a few wires, etc., but *thousands* to replace the lights? I'm skeptical.
sometimes old technology kicks butt. I've got a pair of 70s IH Scouts that I bought for a few thousand dollars years ago.
They're now over 25 years old, are driven every day, and never break down (well almost).
Advantages
- initial cost was very low
- labor is cheap & easy
- parts are very cheap and readily available
- most components are extra-heavy-duty, and so last hundreds of thousands of miles
- seven passenger convertible
- can use it to pull stumps on the weekend then commute topless during the week!
- gets better mileage than a new truck
- more fun to drive than most new trucks
Disadvantages
- no cup-holders
- no airbags
- no cup-holders
- loud on the highway
- even with extra emissions equipment, it isn't as clean or efficient as a new economy-oriented vehicle.
And the best part? After a day of listening to vendors describe how their shiney new product has made everything we're using from 2003 so obsolete...getting into a vehicle designed in the early sixties that still outperforms many new vehicles on the road. Screw disposable, build something amazing and folks will use it for decades.
No I wouldn't. Mechanically there is not much difference between today's engines and engines from 30 years ago. Not much in suspension or brakes either.
It's the electronics that have made the cars more complicated and just as unreliable. When a carb is acting up, it can be very consistently bad. When an ECM acts up, it can be very erratic/intermittent. Works fine mostly except Tuesdays at 4:30 when your dog has to be walked and the Planets are in harmonic convergence.
Complicated doesn't also mean difficult either. For the techies on this site, I would think more electronics on a car would be a welcome addition.
#|
Most, if not all, the technical advance in auto manufacturing has to do with government emissions regulations. People asked the government to demand better air quality and emissions from cars. This is the result. As always, you can't have it both ways (cheap easy to work on car vs. car that get's good mileage and has low emissions).
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I just put HID Headlamps in my BMW M3 for $196. Not $3000. If the prices are so skewed when it comes to relating the other issues, than we can't exactly trust this article. Yes cars are getting more expensive to fix, but it's only because of manufacturer's strangehold over diagnostic data.
The only area in which cars have not become lower maintenance is oil changes. You still need to change the oil every 3,000 miles. But aside from that, most cars today require very little maintenance compared to their simpler predecessors.
Yes, cars are more complicated, but for the first time in history, machines with moving parts are more reliable than those without. The average PC is less reliable than the average car, and given a choice, I think most people would rather have a reliable vehicle than a simple one requiring more maintenance.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
1 - it keeps the dealers service department in business.
2 - it makes customers more likely to just buy a new car, rather than spend 10 grand on repairs as the car gets out of warranty.
Scary part is that people who want options are going to be out of luck soon. Between people not supporting parts for 'real' cars, and government mandates for features such as black boxes...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
>> The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.
Man I'd go back to that industry in a heart beat if they'd pay me anywhere near as well as I get paid for software dev... All this sitting in a sunless little dungeon room staring at a CRT all day is for the birds.
Why would you blame technology where blaming market economics makes more sense? Automakers are motivated by one thing, profits, and since it's more profitable to make disposable cars, that's the direction they will go. This has little to do with technology. So, perhaps you guys should quit titling your articles, "Technology makes cars disposable" and switch to a more honest assessment of the problem, which is "Market Economics makes cars disposable". In fact, the majority of the problems in the tech industry is related to the haphazard, profit motivated nature of market economics. It's a very short term kind of thinking, where somehow it makes sense to create a bunch of junk that only last 10 years. It's what I like to refer to as innovation of garbage, where the primary motivation is create products that head for the nearest landfill as quickly as possible so that another one can be sold. In a sane society, technology would be used to minimize effort, create efficient products that last, etc., in an insane society, technology is used to create extra work (extra jobs), products that fill land fills as quickly as possible, and in general, waste everyone's time. Yay capitalism. In the long run, we will need to come up with a better system than any that are around today, otherwise, it's only going to get worse.
Stupid engineers! Keep the door chimes away from the stereo! There is no need to integrate them.
The parts should be easily modular. It just makes good sense. Besides, who needs to hear "Door Ajar!" at 50db?
Just imagine how much the Pentagon pays for Humvee headlights!
Lots of folks are driving around in 20-30 year old cars. Contrast with this: I recently had a 1995 Lincoln Town Car with one of those "state of the art" 4.6l modular v-8 engines go tits up. Spent a week screwing with it because I'm too cheap to pay the dealership to work on it - replaced a bunch of junkyard type parts - pip crank sensor ($20), ign module ($400 new, BTW), fuel pump, filter, etc. Nothing helped and I didn't have a compression gauge that would reach down to those spark plug holes buried deep in the heads.
So we hauled it 50 miles to the nearest dealership and left it with them - two days and $150 later I find out "it's dead." Simple as that - the fucking thing is dead. A new engine is thousands of dollars and even repairs are incredibly expensive because of all the labor involved to remove things like cylinder heads (all those valvetrain parts are now on the heads, so you have chains and gears and high pressure oil passages through head gaskets). And the engine has, like, 30PSI compression on all the cylinders but two. Why? Don't know and it'd cost several hundred dollars just to find out how extensive the damage is. Meanwhile a USED '95 Towne Car is like $3000, which means it's cheaper to send this one to the junkyard than to fix it.
End result? Now instead of having a ten year old car on the road after extensive repairs, it'll be a ten year old car permanently off the road. One less used automonbile in the chain to support with aftermarket parts, one less used car on the road to provide an alternative to a NEW CAR PURCHASE.
And that's where we're going. Just like those shiny new computers that die a month after their three year warranty runs out and cost as much to fix as buying a whole new computer, we'll end up with cars that are so expensive to fix it's cheaper to buy a NEW ONE. It's not about selling "parts" - manufacturers don't make nearly as much of cataloging, shipping and reselling a $400 part as they make off selling a whole new car. It's all part of planned obsolesence - not just of cars and computers, but an attempt to make obsolete "antiquated" concepts like quality and craftsmanship. Replace art with graphic design; intellect with economics.
....with the increasing usage of hybrid vehicles lessening the demand for gas the price of gas will plummet, thus bankrupting the Middle East.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
"Market Economics makes cars disposable"
should have been...
"Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix"
and this
"Market Economics makes cars disposable"
should have been this...
"Market Economics Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix"
but I suppose you guys are smart enough to figure that out. Time for more caffeine...
Sure, I agree, costs to repair cars is going up.
Does anyone have any data over how much insurance companies are saving through decreased medical payouts? (I'm assuming that people are better protected with all the airbags and such.)
Now, if auto manufacturers could only do something about that nut behind the wheel...
I wonder how long it will take before auto dealerships begin shipping our cars Bangalor for repairs?
Ever hear of a small-block chevy V8? This engine was pioneered in the 1950's and is still used today. Interestingly enough, the engine parts made today still fit the classic cars - a 1970 Camaro owner can salvage engine parts from a 2004 Camaro.
GM already modularizes their powertrains. You'll notice that GM offers a few different engine/transmission options, and that these options don't really change from one GM brand to the next.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
A recent newspaper article talked about all the bad financial decisions people are making on cars; really long term loans (8-10 years), negative equity transactions, and so on. The car industry keeps this going because they need to keep plants running and cars selling to keep the whole machine turning, and consumers are dumb ass enough to keep paying massive lease or loan payments.
How do we know that the next step in this consumer financial treadmill isn't "subscription cars"? When it breaks beyond a certain level, you go to the dealership, turn in your car and get into a newly refurbished one. No hassle for the dealer to figure out complicated parts or systems, just basic fluid level maintenence.
Auto mechanics become few and far between; the use/broken/damaged cars are shipped by train/ship to $third_world where they're parted out and reassembled to be returned to dealers. The truly bad parts are either scrapped for base metals or, if modular, further disassembled for their own reassembly.
At this point, we don't have mechanics with any more skill than the droolers at Rapid-Oil and the high value technician jobs really have been essentially outsourced to a third world country. For the US, Mexico would make more sense than India due to simple geography and the size/weight of a car; but it's not improbable that labor rates in India/China/Philipines would be low enough that transhipping cars overseas would make sense.
Technology is expen$ive -- All those robots, controllers, lift-assist devices, etc. aren't cheap , plus they're not servicable by just anybody (a lot of heavy equipment sales contracts include exclusive service contracts -- where do you think the auto industry learned the trick in the first place? They're just aware that no ordinary consumer in their right mind would buy their car from someone who "held them over the barrel" on the maintenance!)
Tech people are expen$ive -- (this is where many of us come in) all that engineering (mechanical, electrical, and computational) expertise (not just directly employed by the auto industry but also employed by their suppliers, with the costs getting passed-on to you-know-where...) comes at a price; a high and ever-increasing one.
Doing business is expen$ive -- Government regulations, public expectations, employee relations, and a myriad of other lumps in the morass that has become business in America make for an extremely costly environment to manufacture just about anything. Let's say, for example, that the media gets ahold of the fact that your automobile company's R&D department used an "open source" CAD system to develop your latest release's state-of-the-art passive restraint system. Regardless of how you or I view "open source" software, the majority of the "unwashed masses" out there still feel more comfortable with some big company's "deep pockets" standing behind a product than a dedicated cadre of nearly fanatical enthusiasts, so voilà, instant class-action suit (and then we're not talking about the majority of the "unwashed masses" out there any more, just a carefully selected 12 of them...)
As a result of the points above (and a good many more than can be typed here with one hand while I eat my lunch with the other), the costs for equipment, supplies, software, education, facilities, even the electricity and water for nearly any major manufacturing facility are driven up, up and UP. "Cost"?!?! Yeah.
Hell, remember Yugo's? The ultimate in disposable cars, even before you got one off the lot.
An old boss of mine, a real penny-pincher promised his daughter a new car if she got a certain GPA in her freshmen year at college. Sure enough she did, so he went to the Yugo dealership to buy the car. Demanded a car with no additional options on it.
The kicker was he wanted them to give credit on the spare tire too (seriously), until the dealer said that was against state law (Nevada).
When the working conditions include flat rate work on sometimes impossible schedules and working conditions that would make a sewage technician laugh with glee, there is no surprise in the fact that there is a shortage of techs. In the IT world, you might start on the ground floor manually typing stuff into a database...in the automotive world, you start out changing tires and filling windshield wiper reservoirs. There are lots of disincentives to go into auto repair anymore...claims of $100,000 compensation notwithstanding.
I drive a 1994 Accord with around 150K miles on it. I don't remember too much serious fixes aside from new belts and water pump last summer, but it was time for those anyway. Other than that, runs like a champ. Too bad the engine outlasts the body..
There is a labor shortage? I know NOTHING about cars, but am willing to retrain. Doesn't sound like a bad gig.
When I was fresh out of high-school (1981) computers were going to be the next big thing with "learn how to fix computers and you'll have a job for life". But it seems like everyone else took that same advice and now there is a labor surplus in computer techs.
But I'm 42, would switching careers be too late for me perhaps? Interesting problem...
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
wtf?
Won't more complex cars provide additional oppurtunity for the "lower class"?
It seems to me that as the requirements to fix the cars increase, so might the pay, providing better jobs for more people.
Could just be my take, but I am a civil egalitarian, so I am willing to put with extra complexity and cost to put decent person to work at a decent wage.
I am a novice mechanic who has owned and worked on (to some degree) 12 cars. Some of them I ran into the ground, some of them I sold, some of them I ran into other cars. So that was my introduction to learning how to work on cars - buying beaters. About the most complicated thing I've done so far was a head swap on a SOHC toyota motor, or at least I participated in it :P Actually, doing the oil pan on my 240SX without removing the motor was kind of an odyssey all on its own, involving dropping the cross member...
Now, I'm in air conditioning class, have taken an auto body class and an auto paint class, and have been doing that kind of stuff for some time, and as well I have a car that I work on somewhat regularly and my girlfriend has another which I'm going to pull the transmission from soon as I get a sunny weekend. Then, I'm going to be getting a 1962 chevy pickup which is going to need a ton of work. So I know a little something about working on older cars.
The first big thing to make it hard to work on modern cars was the ECU. Code readers came out as a result. It's true that you can't get the really cool codes out of the computer without knowing all the manufacturer-specific information, like the position of mode doors, the values of sensors, and so on. However, the documentation still tells you how to go about testing all that stuff with nothing more complicated than a DVOM. Any shop without a DVOM is no shop at all, so that's no big deal.
Finally let us discuss the price of intensely expensive individual parts. This is a scam by the dealership to make money. However any car with $3,000 headlights (for example - The headlights on a 1991 Acura NSX are $500 each just for the reflectors is pretty much meant to be dealer-serviced-only. Basically all top end cars are meant to be serviced only by the dealer, but no automaker I'm aware of makes cars which are unfeasible to service in any old shop.
With that said, the repair garage is on its way out. Oh sure it'll be many decades before it happens but progress is relentless. Eventually everyone will want to trade in their internal combustion monsters (except for those people doing motorsports, did you know you can run methanol in ordinary engines with minimal conversion? it's high octane, too) for fuel cell, battery-powered, flywheel-powered, or other alternative-energy source vehicles because they will be both cheaper (to operate) and more reliable. As the part count drops the vehicles become easier to repair; Eventually the dealers will end up designing the parts to be easy to replace, and just charging ridiculous amounts of money for them, and anyone who can assemble a children's toy (of course, this isn't everyone) will be able to make any kind of repairs to a car.
Oh yeah, one last note on the computerization of cars ostensibly making it harder to troubleshoot problems with your car: Some of the cars with a screen in the dash have a diagnostic mode you can put them in (outlined in the car's manual) and you can actually use that screen for a code reader. In other words, you get the full benefit of having the code reader, without even having one. This is possible because all the little computers in the car talk to one another on the newer systems. You can see which switches, doors, etc are activated without even plugging anything in.
You have only yourself to blame if you get some high-falutin' car with the little radar parking system and everything, and then expect it to be easy to work on, and repairs to be inexpensive. It simply doesn't work that way.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It will take a fundamental change in compensation practice in the auto repair industry to make it feasable to move from IT to automotive. I made the opposite career move in 97 (auto repair to an IT job) and haven't looked back. Don't believe the stories of six-figure technician salaries. With very few exceptions that is a myth - especially with respect to "educated," non-flat-rate work. With the current system, it's the guy that beats the clock on a book job that gets the good paycheck - and that's not the sort of work that requires a brain trust to complete. Likewise, the service dealers will literally give away diagnostic time because customers refuse to pay for it, thanks to the bogus McTuneup shops that claim to do a complete job for $59.95. Unfortunately, the only guy that usually makes good money in auto repair is the shop owner - and that's with a struggle.
WRT to the expensive parts, you didn't actaully think all those safety features would not cost more than the old stuff? That's why an "economy" car costs what it does. It's litigation insulation that's not optional for the buyer.
One upside = job security. If you can read above a 3rd grade level, have some mechanical aptitude and a decent set of tools, you'll never be unemployed in the auto repair industry unless you just don't want to work. Everyone wants to hire a top diagnostic guy but they're never willing to compensate appropriately. If the worse should happen and I get layed off my IT job, it's comforting to know that I can bring 10 years of experience and college education to bear on the goal of earning $15-20/hour flat-rate.
Call me cynical, but they get away with devaluing your car so much when they estimate its insurance value ("What? A dog pee'd on the hub-cap 6 years ago? that makes it worth another $1000 less. Next!"), that I guess it is cheaper for them to write off than repair.
the future's bright, the future's ginger
1939 Coupe, handles like a tank, and if the starter goes out in the rain, just take the new one (with your tools) into the engine compartment and close the hood. You can even stretch out your legs while you dryly change the part, and maybe through in a tuneup. Heck, there's probably enough room in there to change the TRANSMISSION.
Mutant Freaks of Nature: "Frighteningly Addictive"
Look on the bright side geeks. If you become an auto mechanic, you will always have work and it isn't very likely that it will every be cheaper or practical to ship a car to India to be fixed.
The icomes of most high end mechanics aren't too bad either.
You call 15% gross margins "high margin"????
When you factor in labor (UAW workers make 30-75/hr), plant overhead, and taxes (disability, real estate, social security, etc) you're looking at -2 - 2% margins with the bulk of profit coming from extended service contracts and financing.
Look at the profit margin for GM (1.6%) and compare it to a successful software company like Oracle (25%), and tell me that automaking is a high-margin business.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Hell, ask an IT geek to weld some steel and see how sound that weld is. Like technology getting more sophisticated will some how spell the doom of mechanics. Mechanics will change and evolve just like all the IT guys getting replaced with off-shore workers.
Just ask the Earth Liberation Front...
They found out, in the news, after they lit a Hummer Dealership on fire, that Hummers, ONLY when lit on fire, put out more pollutants then they EVER would through normal usage and eventual PROPER destruction at the end of their lives...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
A big reason for no standardization in the auto industry is simple - it is patents. Basically, the auto industry is fragmenting for the same reason that the UNIX industry fragmented before Linux came along. Each tries to fork off their own proprietary special purpose design and technology to avoid having their products commoditized, and the intellectual property system helps them do it.
If there wern't patents, safety devices like air-bags and antilock breaks would have been in atuos 20 years earlier, and the big industries would tend to copy each other because they could. It would create pressure to standardize because nobody would want to be the odd-ball left out, and it would create a downard pressure on car prices, just like open interfaces do in the PC industry.
Another problem is regulation. The auto industry is far more vulnerable to it because it is not new like the PC industry, and has relied on government intervention for a long time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen auto companies push thru "pollution" and "safety" regulations - to try and increase the barriers to entry in the auto industry, but also push used cars out of the marketplace. Other things they've done are to put quotas or tarrifs on some foriegn made cars. When you do that it drives up the prices dramatcially to where it no longer makes sense to import a cheap reliable car, but rather a complicated one full of bells, whistles, and features.
Moral: Maybe I could call the right to piss in your yard a property right, maybe I could buy and sell shares of that right on the open market, maybe I could say noone has an incentive to piss without that kind of property right. Well that's what the problem is with copyrights and patents, as glorious as they sound, they are not rights nor free market, nor property rights - and this is one of the consequences.
The big cars are ok too, but you still have to climb in and out of them, where I just sit down into the pickup. You probably do get slightly better mileage though.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Indepentent compainies are usually to blame for this one. What happens is that the manufacturer stops making the part then a few shops buy them all up. They can charge whatever they want since they are the one and only source.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
nothing about cars has fundamentally changed in a long time. The trend has been to replace mechanical systems with electronic ones, and to make the electronic systems better by giving them more data to work with.. and finally to make them programmable and adaptable to give you precision and adaptability that mechanical systems could never acheive.
That said, some cars are pragmatically easier to work on than others. Owners of VAG products (VW, Audi, SEAT, Skoda) can purchase a VAG-COM which flawlessly emulates the VAS-1551 dealer service computer, with just a special cable and some windows softare.
BMW's on the other hand require the MODIC/DIS system which is horribly expensive (5 figures) and hard to come by. No shade-tree alternative exists.
Really though, the function of a car is the same as it was 10 or 100 years ago. For the engine to run, you need spark and you need fuel. The methods by which spark and fuel are delivered, timed, proportioned, etc have changed, but the fundamentals are the same. A carburetter was mechanical device that answered the question of "for this operating situation, how much gas do i need" ? Fuel injection answers the same question. Analog EFI answers the same question with resistor and cap "programming" (because the amount of fuel to deliver is a FUNCTION of multiple variables). Digital EFI answers the same question with actual code to interpolate the function's value based on data stored in the ROM. The "function" isn't defined as a function, but as an n-dimensional discrete map of the n inputs the EFI computer considers in making its desicion (air mass, load, etc). In other words, you have points along the RPM axis, points along the load axis, points along the air mass axis, etc. f(load, rpm, air mass) is calculated not by an actual evaluation, but as an interpolation based on looking at the stored defined values in that region of the space (4d, in this case).
On a carburettor you adjusted the jets to make sure the output function was appropriate for the inputs. On digital EFI you make sure that the inputs are appropriate (i.e. the temp sensor, the MAF, the TPS, etc).
These solid state compnents can be easily tested with a multi-meter, so you can quickly troubleshoot the list of sensors involved in the EFI system to determine which input is lying to the computer.
On modern cars its even easier, if you have the diagnostic tool (like a VAG-COM) - the diagnostics will often tell you which sensor is out of spec, and then you can troubleshoot the physical condition (sensor bad ? wire bad ?, etc)
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
As a sysadmin/netadmin/IT/MIS guy all of my career, I've always described my job as being not too much different from a mechanic, except I stay less clean and I apparently get paid less.
And working on my 1969 Baracuda is MUCH more fun lately. Maybe I should change jobs...
So which entrepeneur will start netcarz.com? "For a low monthly subscription you get to drive a different car every month. We deliver the new car to your door and pick up the old one." Just can't wait.
There have to be choices that you can make in regards to this type of technology. You can get fewer airbags and take your chances; you could go for a bigger car, perhaps, higher up with a better view to try to be safer (although some say smaller cars are safer) - you could try to stay away from the fancy stuff.
It can be done, I have no doubt about that. Diesel engines, for instance - the Duramax in the Chevy is an Isuzu, I believe, with the Allison tranny - that's something that will last you a long time, and I doubt that repairs (or even oil changes) are going to be a real issue. The Cummins diesels in the Dodge pickups have been known to log more than one million miles. And with Daimler and Chrysler working together, they are already putting what essentially amounts to a Mercedes-Benz diesel in the funky cargo vans; you can get diesel minivans from Chrysler in Europe. In the next few years, diesel is going to be hot. Combine that with a pickup truck, one of the _simple_ pleasures in life, and you have a winning combination.
Solution? Get a diesel pickup truck. If you want, then use biodiesel, a fully renewable, sustainable fuel that comes from things that you grow in the ground, and recycled grease from fast-food joints.
One of the reasons I studied computers and not 'shop' was because I *HATED* the idea of getting my hands dirty. I just couldn't handle that phobia. Yuk!
Now they are enlisting IT personnel to service AUTOMOBILES??
iiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
than it is to repair old. It might not be outsourcing you have to worry about.
Yes, manufacturing, maintaining and selling cars is expensive. That is three issues. But you forgot to add the developing of new cars.
We (the consumers) demand cars with ever more advanced technologies installed. Those technologies don't just appear out of the air - they are developed just like any software are developed. Development costs! The car companies have to gain profit for this development overhead - and the scheduled maintinance checks seem right on target for that.
Nothing like planned obsolesence to keep the serfs in line..
Then came "integrated bumpers" and "bumperless cars". Those things can be totalled at very low speeds. Damages in minor collisions soared.
Here's the Institute for Highway Safety on the "$3000 light replacement" issue. They write: "The Institute's continuing series of 5 mph bumper tests show that today's flimsy bumpers can result in substantial and expensive damage to vehicle lighting systems. For example, in March of this year the Institute released results of front-into-angle-barrier tests of several new models. In the tests, the housings for the headlights on both the Acura RL and Infiniti Q45 broke and had to be replaced. Largely because of the cost of the headlamp assembly, the damage to the Q45 in the angle-barrier impact totaled $2,661." That's probably the source of the "$3000" figure.
The lack of a tough bumper standard coupled with the crashworthyness requirement means that the car's crumple zones crumple in minor collisions. Hence the big repair bills.
The Hummer emits way more CO2.
I have to sympathize with anyone who, like me, has bought a Passat. Here's an example - the trunk (boot) light won't work. Cost to repair it? Turns out it's the lid sensor, which is hooked up to the anti-theft system, so not only does the sensor need to be replaced, but the antitheft system needs to be reprogrammed. Total cost - $200.00 US.
Keep this in mind if you're thinking of buy a VW, because not only is the quality CRAP, the design is CRAP!
Car companies engineer the newer cars so that you can't fix them yourself. Routine maintence like oil changes and sparkplugs are impossible to change on your own. Dealers make more money fixing cars than they do selling them. There are other things that cost more that I believe have nothing to do with safty, like taillights. If you break a lense cover on a newer car you have to replace the whole taillight assembly not just the lense. If you get in a wreck and you do have insurence, they'll probobly total the car (even if it's not totaled), just because it will cost to much to fix. I have never owned a brand new car. In some ways I'm glad.
What will you do when that car you bought isn't under warrenty anymore.
Supply = demand.
If you only have 10 cents an hour to pay someone to mow your lawn, then there is not a shortage of labor. There no supply for your demand. That's all. That's like saying there is a shortage or programmers because you want to hire H1-Bs for $30K/year and not hire Americans for $60/K year.
"labor shortage" is always a myth. Not paying what supply and demand dictates is what's wrong.
I got in a small ~10mph fender bender in my '01 Transam WS6, and with only body damage it cost $5500 for repairs. $2000 for the hood alone.
Damn carbon-fiber body parts...
How is it no one sees the obvious benefits of medical outsourcing ? I am amused that people can see this as a bad thing. Aside from driving the cost of medical treatment down, it also removes geographic barriers.
If a guy in India can analyse X-rays for a tenth of the cost, maybe someone in Trinidad can afford that second opinion that will save their life.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
I find it funny that the Ford Model T got 25 mpg. Sure, it was a 2 cylinder engine and didn't go all that fast...but you would think by now we'd have much better fuel efficiency. :-)
so a friggen mechanic can not be outsourced. one profession is safe. and it payes better than IT. (if you are not lazy!) Most of my friends are a mecahnic, I wish I became a greese monkey insted of IT field.
GM is attempting something like this with their hydrogen cars. It's a bit far off, but looks promising. You could keep the same chasis and engine for 10 years, and swap up differing cabs if you get bored with your current one.
I want a return to the Model T ubiquity.
>I *HATED* the idea of getting my hands dirty.
I don't mind getting my hands dirty, but I don't want a hand injury or a hearing injury for that matter -- I'm a serious musician.
no part (including the engine) to heavy to lift with 1 person.
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
I don't know what you folks are talking about--cars have always been disposable. Ever visit a junkyard? Those are disposed of cars.
Cars are among the most recycled products--usable parts are salvaged, then the cars are crushed and the steel is reused. The process could be improved through better design.
A lot of people still want to be able to work on their cars themselves. The cost of having work done can break you, but the cost of most parts is still reasonable. What I want is a car that is *easy* to work on--one with the oil filter that is reachable without having to do inhuman contortions. Automakers should focus on making their wares affordable for the life of the vehicle, not just until the warranty expires.
If it's legal, I can see a new market coming into existence for airbag-less cars at a discount.
Automotive technicians held about 818,000 jobs in 2002, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. That figure is expected to increase by 10 to 20 percent annually.
"There's no shortage of general technicians, but there is a big shortage of qualified people to work on drivability and emissions issues," says Robert Rodriguez of Automotive Service Excellence. The Leesburg, Va., organization certifies repair shops and technicians.
These specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills, he says. "The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry," he says.
Anyway, this forced me to analyze my typical car usage, and I found out that in my particular case, I'm better off if I use cabs and rent a car occasionally. I work from home. I go shopping once a week, and visit friends one-two times a week. Cabs are perfect for these purposes. I'm going on a longer trip over weekends once or twice a month, and once a year on a two-week vacation. Renting a car is perfect for this purpose.
I save myself from paying interest on a loan for the new car (or losing interest on money I can't invest since I have to spend it on a car - same thing), I don't have to pay insurance, and I needn't worry about repairs.
The whole idea is still fresh, and I wonder how will it work out, but for now it looks like it'll provide me with near equal comfort as owning a car, and I expect it to be less expensive in long run.
Sig erased via substitution of an identical one.
Not to mention I bet your NOx emissions are way up there when the car's actually being driven.
Are cars you lease rather than buy.
Some of this exists already, but the big car makers have to bring this to its logical conclusion.
If car makers have to pay for maintenance and disposal costs, they will be given an incentive to build the cars so they will be durable. Parts likely wouldn't break down as often, and would be easily replaced, just like you can change RAM on your box. And the whole thing will have to be recyclable.
Or we could simply go with a ten-year-old idea, the Hypercar. (more info)
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
I tried whipping it with a buggy whip, but no, the shop computer still insisted that it needed a new lamda probe. I have stripped a car down to a pile of nuts and bolts and rebuilt it in a different shape, but I do not know what a lamda probe is, nor why I should need one. That makes me sad.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Certainly, labor costs are a problem, but I think that the costs of the parts is a bigger problem that won't get solved any time soon.
Take the BMW example in the article. The car cost $30k new, so the damage must have been $16 at least. Say that all six airbags went off, and using the numbers in the story ($1k per bag, and "even more" for the sensors -- call it $1.25k), the labor costs were around $13.5k. That's astronomical, to be sure, and it's the number that gets your attention. But look at the parts...these figures mean that the cost of the airbags & sensors is $2,500 or so.
That may not seem like a lot, but think about it. If you figure that transportation costs, dealer profit eat up $1,000 of the car's price (it's coming from Germany, after all), that means that the airbags come out to around 8.6% of the car's total value. Does anybody really believe that the airbag system cost BMW that much? Of course not, I'm sure they spent less than a fourth of that. This highly profitable parts market is one of the reasons that I can lease that $30k BMW for $299 a month.
The invisible hand of the market may be able to fix the labor problem, but it can't directly address the parts problem because this information isn't generally known. Maybe articles like this one will cause people to take a harder look at the real cost of owning different cars when they are shopping for new ones.
I work for a new car dealer...and last week we had a 1926 (may have been 28 - can't remember) Oldsmobile in....we worked on it. And we're not even an Olds dealer. Sounds like your Ford dealer has too much money & doesn't want to risk earning more by serving the customer.
Also, we know that ABS brakes, electronic throttle control, and other fancy features, heve been killing people. Some advances are OK, in fact the use of electronic ignition came at least 20 years after it had been proved to be reliable and beneficial, because the generally incompetent car manufacturers though it would be unreliable or cost more than the primitive system it replaced. They were eventually forced to adopt it to meet emission regulations, then realising that it was wonderful, they went mad and put electronics, often with inadequate software and/or EMC precautions, in all the wrong places also, so we get numerous accidents, mostly ascribed to "driver error", when a bit of trash code sees an unexpected input value for some reason, and locks out all of the brakes. Yes, it does happen, and with monotonous regularity.
I will not own a car which has ABS, traction control, or alloy wheels. None of them are necessary, and they all kill people. And I don't want lots of messy electronics controlling wing mirrors, sunroof, seat position, etc, because when it fails (it will!), a replacement, if available, will be hideously expensive, maybe 100 times or more than its original cost to the manufacturer.
It is interesting to note that in the UK at least, automotive hardware and software designers are paid what the rest of industry, and in particular safety-critical industry, regard as derisory salaries. I am sure you know the saying "pay peanuts, get monkeys...". Yet they pay their marketing men and stylists (neither of whom are necessary to make a good product) very well indeed.
As to aluminium bodies, the main influence there seems to be a certain grossly incompetent German manufacturer, whose dangerously unstable vehicles, using a long-obsolete layout which is guaranteed to produce dangerous instability in certain real-life situations, which have killed many people. I believe that in the US, the number of their most offensive product is the one you need to use to call the emergency services when it crashes. The same irresponsible company is responsible for stupid techniques such as rear-wheel steering (to try to overcome the gross effects of basic design incompetence) which in themselves cause more problems.
It is a pity that Ralph Nader did not finish the job he started many years ago, a lot of things ought to be outlawed for the benefit of public safety. The "green" movement ought to get a lot more outlawed, of course Dubya does not listen to them, but most of Europe at least does.
If you want to know why aluminium is a disastrously bad material for anything subject to random, varying stress, such as car bodies and suspension components, try to get a copy of a book called, IIRC, "The Science of Strong Materials" by Prof. J. E. Gordon, published by Pelican, and see what he says about its use in aircraft. The book was written long before anyone, apart from a few oddball experiments, thought about mass-producing cars from the material. The aluminium lobby is very powerful, they seem to get their material into lots of places where it does not belong, particularly now that they are being seueezed out of the aircraft industry by much safer composites.
Aluminium is a very good material, in the right place I have nothing against it. Lo
The reality is that cars are becoming harder to work on.
The problem is all to do with the computers.
Manufacturers are deliberately making it harder and hard to get diagnostic information from your car.
Let's contrast my old '87 Buick LeSabre, vs. my GF's 98 Toyota Tercel:
-On the Buick, if I want to read the trouble codes, I need a paperclip. That's it. That will let me access ALL the trouble codes. Clearing them is as simple as disconnecting the battery/removing a fuse.
-On the Tercel, I can't get the trouble codes until I buy a $150 code reader. Even then this code reader only gives me a faction of the functionality that it should. OBDII was designed for gov't emissions testing. In order to clear trouble codes you MUST have a reader, and your car will not pass inspection if it has uncleared codes.
Basically, here's my rant about OBDII:
Here's an example:
My GF's MIL comes on. We call around and find out that any shop is going to want $70 just to look at it. So I'm pretty much forced to buy a reader.
The trouble codes indicate a misfire. I replace a $5 set of spark plugs, problem fixed.
A problem that would have cost me $5 to fix on the Buick, cost me $155 on a newer car.
Now look, I'm willing to shell out $150 for a reader, but I want it do be able to do more than I can do on an older car with just a paper clip.
The way it's set up right now, $150 gets you your trouble codes, but if you want any of the things that you SHOULD be able to get with a computer interface (like TPS sensor status) you need to buy ANOTHER special purpose computer (if you lucky and it's even avaible for you model) or spend the value of the car itself on a computer.
The solution to all this BS is pretty simple:
No dealer-only diagnostics
Any non-engineering computer interfaces must meet a federal standard, and any deviations from this standard must be disclosed.
Right now I could build a car and cryptographically block you from doing anything but basic ODBII functions. If you want to do something as simple as bleed your brakes you MUST pay a dealer or you will not be able to properly bleed the ABS unit. Then it's both a market manipulation issue and a safety issue.
Life is too short to proofread.
Or atleast I used to be. I went to school for automechanics for 4 years, worked in the feild for 2....I now own/operate an ISP/consultant operation in north SF bay california. First off, I was raised working on cars and motorcycles starting at the age of 5. My first "big" project was with my father on a 1959 Dual Glide Harley restoration. We also worked on things from a '55 Wiley's panel truck and everything up to the early 80's.
:). I already had over 12 years of hard line experience from classics to modern vehicles. I graduated and moved on to working for a local auto restorer who bought late model wrecked vehicles and restored them. Most of the stuff we worked on were higher end sports cars, luxury vehicles, and anything else that weren't cheap vehicles simply because of the cost going into rebuilding them.
In 1986, my freshman year in highschool, I decided to go vocational school for automechanics as working on and playing around with computers was still just a hobby to me and most people my age at the time. We worked on anything someone brought in, from a '36 Ford to an '85 Fiero GT. Lemme tell ya, changing plugs on a Fiero GT was a bear, nothing like having to pull the engine half out just to replace 3 of 6 plugs.
Time progressed and I decided to further the carreer after I got out of school and went to a local community college where I learned under some of the best mechanics in the country
Now, here's my point. The cost into repairing them wasn't as high as one might think. Depending on the shop of course, the majority of the money goes to the shop in most cases. Simply to pay for their advertising, paying the "none money generating" employees (such as service writers), and new equipment. Alot of people don't realize this but back in 1980 a Sun Machine which is one of the most used peices of equipment in the automotive feild was easily a $35k peice of equipment for a "no frills" system. But I digress, $305 for a water pump replacement and system flush. The problem many of you are having isn't the cost of parts, it's the price the shop is charging you. I took a company car in for a fuel pump replacement. $750 and an empty tank later (was full when I took it in) I realized I was getting majorly overcharged. This was before I owned the company of course. So I made some phone calls. The $300 fuel pump was actually $115 from the dealer they bought it from. The $50 fuel disposal fee (trying to understand why that fuel never made it back into my car) was....shouldn't have been done and probably just found it's way into one of the mechanics' cars. The $100 "Sun Machine" hook up shouldn't have been charge simply because....well, it didn't need to go on the sun for a fuel pump replacement.
If you spend your life turning wrenches for a living you're also not going to go out and buy Craftsmen tools either. You'll wait for either the Mac or Snap-On tool truck to come around. These tools aren't cheap, but there's a reason these tools aren't cheap. Take a bolt that's halfway rounded off, put a craftsman on it and you'll just round it off more. You'll then have to get out the drill and tap, cover whatever you're working on so you don't get metal shavings inside. Put a Snap-On on the same bolt and bewm, 7 times out of 10 you'll get a bite and that bolt will come out.
Part costs? If you buy a $60k luxury car, expect to pay more for the parts. If you buy a $15k ricer, parts are cheaper. Imports are more expensives because... and correct me if I'm wrong here....they have to be shipped halfway around the world. Not because there's anything special about the part. Again, if you buy a car NOT manufactured in the US...it's going to cost you more to maintain....get over it or buy something made in the US.
And to sum this up, check around before you complain about costs. When I was still doing it for a living, I had people bringing in bills that they were charge $1500+ to replace head gaskets when the only thing wrong with the car was the t
We Americans are always spouting about how this and that should be done to "save the enviroment". We need new laws, we need to make this illegal, we need to recycle, blah blah blah.
In reality, cars pollute the enviroment MOST when they are made. Think about all the chemicals released when all those plastics are made and molded. Same with the paints, fluids and metal forming. A 1960's fume belcher does not cause as much pollution as one new Prius (sp?) being made.
The second most polluting time in a car's life is when it's scrapped.
This is true for MOST of the hardware products we buy yet, we always buy the disposable stuff and toss it when it acts up.
IF we REALLY cared about the enviroment, we'd demand products that were easily repairable that we could keep along time.
Hardware (like TVs) should be made so that modules could be upgraded (like generic computers). If you want stero sound, upgrade the sound card... If you want LCD, upgrade the tube module. Etcetera.
I'm thinking that the car (and other manufacturers) are purposely making cars too hard to fix in the hopes that people will just buy a new one. I'm sure it's a fine line between pissing off their customer with repair costs and encouraging them to buy a new car.
Just my 2cents.
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
well my dad works at a saab dealership. He is not a mechanic, but heads a dept ( they have more than one dealership it is a chain). He was talking about how hard it is to find good service people to work there. The punch line is they pay them a BASE salary of 52k per year + lots of overtime, great insurance and a chance to advance. The service manager at a dealership makes like 100k per year. None of them have to own a suit, stay in a hotel for work,or pay back expensice student loans for grad school.
The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
I was talking to one of the guys at my ISP and he was telling me that most of the people running such businesses don't have degrees. They don't need them. They taught themselves.
The computer industry is changing so rapidly that your compsci degree is obsolete right after you get your diploma. There's nothing you learn in Computer Science that you can't teach yourself.
And if you can't teach yourself, then you shouldn't be doing computer science because you're constantly learning with nothing more than books to teach you. I havn't even finished Linear Algebra yet and I'm writting a very advanced statistics tool. In some respects, I'm actually ahead of my college education.
Some industries like the auto industry just change at a slower pace. No matter what industry you're in, if you don't have the ability to teach yourself, you'll become obsolete along with the things you used to fix.
If you want to be successful you need to find what you really want to do early on and focus on getting part time jobs that deal directly with your desired profession. You get paid to be educated. And then once the time comes to go to college you can deside whether or not you really need to spend the money or if you're already in a position to keep moving up in the field.
Personally I wouldn't give up college. It's expensive but the social aspect of it is very nice. And it's structured which is good for learning how to organize time and whatnot.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
IT Mechanics = Plumbers of the 21st centuries. :-)
$150/hour of work... hahaha
Special deals, I'll throw in a 4-port Linksys switch for free.
Again, depends on the vehicle. '91 Accord, rear drum brakes were actually quite easy to service. Front discs/rotors are a pain in the butt, mainly due to the fact that the bolts must be accessed from towards the inside, requiring that the steering knuckle etc be first removed for access.
The rears, a few springs and a bolt or two, you're good. There's a little tensioning bolt that can be accessed once the brakes are on to adjust the distance between the pad/drum.
I do remember that my previous car (Toyota) was a lot simpler on front discs though, no pulling a bunch of extra crap off apart to get at the rotors.
Aside from the power used, it's a cyclic process with minimal wastage. The rubber, plastic, metal can be reused for whatever purpose necessary. It has to be economically viable if these companies are willing to lay out so much green for these 'car eaters'.
Wow.... Uhhh, yeah. So you've got a Honda Civic or some other piece of junk which only lasts 7 years. You crush it, transport it, shred it, smelt it, transport the ingot, re-melt for cold rolling, roll it, stamp it, weld the stampings back together, paint it, and sell it as a new car.
Okay... Why don't you try looking up the specific heat of iron and the energy content of coal. Sit back and tell me how many tons of coal you have to burn each time you melt an equivalent quantity of iron and steel to a car.
It's horrifically wasteful and terrible for the environment. In fact, you'd have to drive a poorly-tuned old gas guzzler for 22 years (on top of its regular lifespan) to make up the environmental damage caused by recycling it.
Buy a good and *durable* car that is easy to work on - not some Japanese tinfoil crap. Wash it and wax it every week. Change the oil every 4,000km or three months. Keep the engine tuned up, and when it needs rings and bearings, do it. And drive the thing for as long as you can - I'm thinking 40+ years. The newer more environmentally-"friendly" cars aren't.
My automotive stable includes a 1970 Dodge Dart with a Slant-6. Fits my 6'4" tall body comfortably, starts every morning with the legendary Chrysler gear-reduction "dive bomber" starter motor and a satisfying click-click-click of the solid lifters, gets 28MPG and blows as clean on the emissions test as a 1990-spec. And forget the $3000 HID headlights; mine are $4.99 each at Wal*Mart.
Can't buy a new car like that these days.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Modular airbags are a good idea, but do you think Acura wants you buying airbags from GM?
People who can afford to buy new cars probably only want them for a few years. All cars are made for people who are buying them new, the rest of us can either buy what is on the market or build our own cars. New cars are expensive and depreciate quickly, so I'd guess that people who buy them don't generally have time to fix their own and are not really inclined to do so no matter how easy it is. Of the people I know the more they spent on their car a) the more busy they are and b) the more afraid they are of looking under the hood, or even pumping their own gas. (Car enthusist excluded)
I recently replaced my 14 year old Honda Civic with a new Mazda 3, and now I find that the manufacturer WILL NOT give me enough information to do my own oil changes! The owners manual doesn't list the filter part number, doesn't show it's location, and states that "Since a special tool is required to remove the oif filter, this service should only be done at a Mazda certified service center"
The dealer wants $42 to change the oil, but will sell me the filter and required O-ring kit(still won't give me the part numbers) for low low price of... $22!!!
I've got to dind a trustworthy shop... I'll be dammed if I'm giving the dealer another cent!
-MattT *** Not speaking for my employer, or any other sentient beings ***
oops...
s/dind/find
-MattT *** Not speaking for my employer, or any other sentient beings ***
Actually, if I drive my classic car over 88 mph, I can go back and prevent the car from being made, thus preventing the pollution from its creation...
I heard this in one of my classes about China. China is now undergoing an automobile revolution. More and more people are switching from bicycles to automobiles.
I was told that if the Chinese wanted the same ratio of cars to people as the United States, there is not enough raw Steel capable of doing that. That scares me into thinking, how much resources do we really have left? If we make "disposable" cars, wouldn't that cause an increased rate of mineral loss, even WITH recycling?
Frankly, I don't think disposable cars are possible.
Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right. --Isaac Asimov
My original post sounded sufficiently contrarian that I figured I should post a follow-up:
Link to a site dedicated to the ultimate sturdy vehicle: http://www.binderbulletin.org/ There you'll find stories from hundreds (maybe thousands) of current owners of 25-40 year old vehicles.
If you don't believe that a 30 year old vehicle can provide reliable and affordable daily transportation - just ask these guys.
IAAHM (I am a home mechanic) and have done repairs from simple to complex. Including maintaining 30+ year old cars in daily use. There are two truths only one brought out in the article:
THE FIRST TRUTH - disclosed
* Electronics = Complexity = Cost
When a simply networked 1996 compact had faulty wiring, senors and cpu, it was a total disaster. The car would quit running at 65MPH due to an erroronious stop code being sent to the cpu.
Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time resulted in the car becoming more well-behaved, but it was never right. This included the manufacturers warranty and HQ Tech Support.
So when your GM Hy-Wire fuel cell powered, drive by wire car deleveops a short - - just throw it out and buy a new one.
THE SECOND TRUTH - secret!
Big auto-makers and big dealerships DO NOT WANT YOU TO FIX YOUR OWN CAR. They want the profits they make (more than they make from selling the cars) from fixing it for you.
Go to any autoparts store and get a price on say disc brake pads and rotors for your car. Then call a dealship and ask for the price on the same parts. If it isn't at least DOUBLE the price as the autoparts store, I'll eat my (red) hat, er fedora.
Also just try and find any anti-pollution related parts at the autoparts store. They are patented and not available outside of the dealership parts department. Try and find "non-traditional" parts such as the cpu, wire harness, sensors, certain body parts, etc. Only at the dealerships. For these parts the dealship can see you coming from 200 miles out, and the prices are set accordingly. Yeah bend over.
A changed over just occured (model year 2003 I think) to a new network sub-system and computer OS, which obsoletes every existing piece of diagnosic equipment in use for newer cars. The older models still use the old equipment. How long before these new dx tools are made only for dealerships? Are priced so high only the large shops can buy them? Are even available for purchase unless you qualify as a "Mr. Goodtool"?
So there are really two factors in play,
1) The cars are not really diagnosable, since the diagnosis relies on the the electronics, network and on-board computer. When the network and computer controls sub-systems fail, you're screwed blue.
2) Big auto is artifically driving (pun intended) up the costs of repair, and limiting what kinds or repairs and model year of car can be repaired, by using a kind of DCMA on parts and repair technology.
In my opinion the Second Truth has much, much more to do with the high cost of repair than the first truth. Artifical price control.
The problem is, how many lower class people does the increased complexity help (by giving them better paying jobs) versus how many it hurts (by giving them more-expensive-to-fix cars, especially since they be buying them used, when they are closer to needing those expensive repairs).
This was mentioned previously, but I'll expand on it by saying that Honda has mandated that, by the end of this year, 95% of the products and materials be recyclable. This is on top of Honda of Canada (as an example) recycling 98% of their manufacturing waste.
As an aside, if you're a manufacturing geek and you ever get a chance to visit a Honda plant (such as the one in Alliston, ON), take it. The place is absolutely spectacular.
"Max, come over here. French-Canadian bean soup. I want to pay. Let them leave me alone." - Dutch Schultz
What's missing in the new car world today is a lack of Real Choice. Granted, there never was a lot of Real Choice, but it's dwindled to almost nothing these days.
In years past, you had a choice of interiors [vinyl/cloth/leather], transmissions [manual or automatic], power/manual windows, bucket or bench seats, cruise control/not etc. Now there are no choices in many of these areas, and you are stuck with a pile of expensive geegaws that you may not want in the first place.
Where this really blows my mind is in the world of pickup trucks.
Growing up, my dad was in agribusiness. The most 'frills' you could wish for [or even *wanted*, for that matter] would be A/C and FM on the radio. Today, trucks are nothing more than big luxury cars. I hate to have to use one in agribusiness--it might get dirty!
What needs to be done is that cars should be more like PCs--pick your frame, your body style, your engine, your transmission [manual for me], window types, etc. etc.
Make it modular, give people Real Choices [electric, gasoline, diesel, biodiesle, greasel or fuel cell engine & no power windows for me, thanks] and I might buy a new car. Until then, no way.
Couple it with the worse (yes, worse) pollution from modern cars fitted with catalytic converters, and from unleaded petrol (hmm, replace tetraethyl lead with two class-A carcinogens, clever) and it suddenly doesn't make sense to have everyone in new cars for "environmental reasons", does it?
Yes, car parts are becoming more disposable and expensive to buy. And yes, this is by design on the part of the car companies that are sick and tired of other companies copying their designs and selling the parts to mechanics for less. To paraphrase Henry Ford "I'll give away the cars for free as long as you guarantee me the replacement parts market".
Thus, the emphasis on superior materials that also happen to be harder to copy by others. That raises the cost of market entry and hopefully thus reduces third-party competition for parts. Who said that car companies have your interests at heart? They exist to make money, and the repair business is where it's at.
What the writer of this article missed, however, are the costs displaced by all this superior technology finding its ways into cars. Tell me, have you looked at a serious hospital bill lately? My appendectomy (1 day stay) cost over $7,000. Do you have any idea what the cost of major trauma is? I have yet to experience a roll-over like the kid in the BMW, but any kind of head-injury is bound to be expensive. The bags (and presumably the seatbelt) saved the kid from that.
The going rate for surgery is $25 a minute. Never mind intensive care and more pedestrian regular ward stays. If a car requires $15,000 repairs but the hospital costs were reduced by $50,000 (sample 1-month stay) then society comes out ahead. However, this medical cost reduction benefit may be less applicable in countries with lower medical costs than the US.
Furthermore, my understanding is that any kind of roll-over usually totals a car by default, much like complete floodings and other damage that may result in frame, electrical, or other damage that is hard or uneconomical to rectify. Granted, you can repair said damage, but would you trust a frame that has been bent once before? Ever wonder why the salvage title category even exists at the DMV?
Similarly, if a $1,500 HID system allows a driver to avoid several accidents, then the system pays for itself rather quickly. When most of todays cars were designed, the folks in the car companies probably did not forsee the popularity of HID or even air-bag theft (which is more popular than radio theft in the USA, apparently). I know that HID theft certainly made me more paranoid on where to park my car.
Hmm...and I thought it read:
"Technology Makes New Cats Too Expensive to Fix"
Guess it's time for another cup of coffee!
I wonder how tolerant and pro-semitic you would be if a race/religion and wannabe nation came to your country to set up shop (commiting terrorism while they were at it)?
from wikipedia.
But the rise to power of Adolf Hitler in Germany in 1933 produced a powerful new impetus for Zionism. Not only did it create a flood of Jewish refugees -- at a time when the United States had closed its doors to further immigration -- but it undermined the faith of Jews that they could live in security as minorities in non-Jewish societies. Jewish opinion began to shift in favour of Zionism, and pressure for more Jewish immigration to Palestine increased. But the more Jews settled in Palestine, the more aroused Palestinian Arab opinion became, and the more difficult the situation became in Palestine. In 1936 serious Arab rioting broke out, and in response the British authorities issued the White Paper, severely restricting further Jewish immigration.
The Jewish community in Palestine responded by organising armed forces, based on smaller units developed to defend remote agricultural settlements. Two military movements were founded, the Labor-dominated Haganah and the Revisionist Irgun. The latter group did not hesitate to take military action against the Arab population. With the advent of World War II, both groups decided that defeating Hitler took priority over the fight against the British. However, attacks against British targets were recommenced in 1940 by a splinter group of the Irgun, later known as Lehi, and in 1944 by the Irgun itself.
It is probably possible to spend upwards of 10 grand more on a car with extra safety features, and when they actually come into play and save someone, then that person is invariably glad they spent the money.
But suppose feature X costs an extra $1000 and actually comes into play and saves someone from injury Y in 1 out of 100000 cars. Then society as a whole spent 100 million dollars preventing that one injury or death. A human life is worth substantially less than 100 million dollars. Or put a different way: it is possible to save many more than 1 life by spending 100 million dollars more intelligently than on fitting 100000 cars with safety feature X.
I don't have a problem with those who have disposable income wasting money trying to protect themselves from injury in an accident that probably won't ever happen, but whenever a new safety feature comes out it is usually mandated for all new cars within a few years.
Politicians that enact these mandated safety features should always, ( as cold as it seems ), decide on a number represent the dollar value of a human life and then weigh the cost of fitting all cars with feature X against it's expected value in prevented deaths/serious injuries ( $ value of 1 human life * prevented deaths ) - cost of fitting all cars with feature X should be positive.
If ( # people saved by airbags driving year X model year cars * dollar value of 1 human life ) - ( cost of 1 regulation airbag * cars purchased in year X ) is less than zero, then the regulation has resulted in money being spent unwisely. It has resulted in MORE DEATHS since part of societies life saving budget has been squandered stupidly on air bags.
But seat belts would probably be another story because they are so much cheaper and probably have more overall safety value than airbags and are probably involved in saving more lives.
According to NHTST about 5000 people have been saved by airbags total in the US. If there are 1 cars for every 3 people and 70% have airbags at $1000 each then that's $11,600,000.00 per life saved.
I am sure there are ways to save more than one life ( even in the US ) for eleven million dollars.
Eat at Joe's.
And thousands of men with really small penises died after leaping into the flames in a failed effort to save them.
The idea of "disposable cars" disturbs me. But when I think about it on an "outside of the box" level, I realize that we already have them. We have them because style and marketing make us want newer cars. Cars are status symbols that very much tell other people about us. We buy them to show others a piece of our personality. And we trade them in to get a car that tells people something about us that was missing in the previous model. Cars are a class system.
When I think a bit further about it, I'm thinking wouldn't it be neat to have a modular snap-together system of major assemblies that would fit in a chassis? That way you could buy whatever module you wanted and install it. You could have a Ford motor, A GM Tranny, an Allison rear end in a Honda body. When a module got to the point where it needed replacement you could shop for the features and price you wanted. Rebuilders could fix up old modules and sell them as replacements.
This concept is not without precident in the automotive industry. Checker did it for years and years, some big truck manufacturers do it to some extent today. Some buses have their motors and transmissions mounted on a pan that can be installed with a forklift, putting the bus with a blown engine or tranny back on the road in as little as forty five minutes.
It ain't gonna happen though. Manufacturers like things the way they are today.
I go to several large old car shows a year. I think I have hit on an idea that will put me in nice wheels at a reasonable cost. Several of these shows have areas set aside for cars that are for sale. Some of the really hot restored cars sell for tens of thousands of dollars but less hot fully restored cars are frequently inexpensive. You can get six cyl '67 Mustangs in fully-restored shape for five grand. This is a lot less than a new car and these cars are wonderful, unique, and would be up to the task of being a daily driver. I am seriously considering one of these machines insetad of a new car.
But don't mind me, I'll just be right here laughing as people with SUVs suck down $4 gas in a year or so... There must be, after all, limits to the power of Bandar bin Sultan (despite his lovely promises to keep the oil coming.)
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
While I understand the headlight thing is a travesty, I don't have a problem with the airbags. If my wife was a in an accident I'd rather 20 airbags go off and save her life, than none at all. Even if it costs more money. I imagine the aluminum repair will get cheaper as more cars with that feature become available. Until then, don't buy a car that's all aluminum.
it might be enligntening to do a check on this phrase: Design for Manufacturing
[as opposed to Design for Reliability / Reparability]
if you dig far enough, you will find corporate mandates for the use of perminant adhesives, as opposed to mounting brackets, &c... you will learn why it is sometimes necessary to remove the front end of a vehical to change the blinker bulbs... pull the engine to change the spark-plugs, &c.
Manufacturers charge a very large overhead for all the parts they replace, it's how they make money. HID's $3000 each? funny, I just bought a complete HID conversion kit, with 2 ballasts, 2 igniters, and 2 bulbs for $400 total.
off topic, but the other thing that gets me about the car industry, is that the things that we undersand and would enjoy and be able to use to it's full potential (navigation, bluetooth, etc.) are reserved for the high end cars that cater to the older, less computer savvy market (ie people that don't know how to turn their computer off).
and I'm spent.
== www.FreeBSD.org == The Power To Serve. ==
If safe driving costs lives, then tell me, how should they drive?
Going by your logic people that drive Saturn's are the most unsafe scary drivers ever, 'cause I done been cut off by a few Saturn drivers...
Philip Greenspun wrote a fascinating analysis of this a few months ago. To quote part of it:
If his analysis is correct -- and it certainly seems plausible -- then the predictions he goes on to make from there are wide-ranging and dramatic. What happens if the 5% of the American workforce that makes, sells, and finances cars is suddenly out of a job? What other manufacturing field could pick up that much slack? Can the economy change course in time to maintain America's wealth, or could this drastically accelerate the loss of blue (and now white) collar jobs that we've been seeing since the 1970s?
Maybe we should all just go apply at Wal-Mart now. At least then in 10 years we'll have a shot at being a minimum wage shlobs with seniority.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
You still need to change the oil every 3,000 miles.
3000 is a waste. 4500-5500 is now the standard.
Cars should be IEEE compliant, i mean, IEEE or somebody like that should make standard specifications for a car, and different companies would just make cars according to this model. Cars would show a IEEE-compliant logo or something, making repairs less expensive (you can buy any IEEE repair part) and labour would be comfortable to the pockets as well. Am I the only one with this point here?
A hybrid drive system composed of in-wheel front motors connected through a controller to a battery pack would be optional. This would also have the advantage of giving the car AWD.
Doors would be full-length gullwings, to obviate the need for a B-pillar (easier entry, better visibility) without having weak doors that meet in the center - the side impact beam would run unbroken from front to rear. The doors would have sliding windows rather than roll-down windows - these windows would be easy for the driver to slide open with one hand without a need for power. The windows would be completely removable and stowable under the rear seat on hot days. The roof part of the doors would be removable canvas, replacable with fiberglass panels for winter conditions. An emergency release would allow easy removal of the windows for escape after a crash.
The floor of the car would be totally flat, due to the rear engine, allowing for 6-passenger seating, with the gearshift mounted either on the steering column or to the left of the driver (assuming left-hand drive). The handbrake would also be a lever to the left of the driver, like in old Volvo 140-series cars. A foot pedal is too cumbersome with a manual tranny, and an electronic brake is unnecessarily complex.
Suspension would be by double wishbones in front, and single A-arms plus damping struts in rear. A combination of a single spring across the car to control wheel movement in unison with a swaybar to control differential wheel movement will be used in place of the current 2-spring+swaybar system. Steering would be manual, with optional electric motor assistance. In the hybrid version, the front wheels should be able to turn up to 75 degrees from the straight position, allowing the wheel motors to "pull" the front of the car essentially sideways at slow speeds. Great for parking.
The car should have no more than three computers, really. One for engine control. Another for hybrid drive system (if fitted) control. A third for airbag control. Maybe a fourth for brake control if ABS is used. Things like climate control can remain manual. There's no shame, really, in having a lever pulling on a cable opening a heater valve or air door.
Total size shouldn't need to be greater than 15' long by 4' high by 5.5' wide. The body would take the form of a modified station wagon, with a small luggage compartment in front, and another larger trunk over the rear engine bay.
Lighting would remain incandescent in front and would use standard round headlights for ease of repair. A pair of auxilliary bright driving lights could also be fitted. Taillights, mounted at normal height, would also remain incandescent for ease of repair. The rear LED brake lights and turn signals would be mounted higher up on the car, making them less vulnerable in a crash. Front LED turn signals would be mounted
They have it already - it's called lease-purchase financing. You lease the vehicle, make payments, and then at the end you own - nothing! You get to either start the cycle all over again, leasing another car, or lining up financing to cover the residual value of the vehicle.
In a restaurant, you've heard of "Twice Cooked Chicken?" Well, this is kinda like "Twice Paid Car."
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
My god the center of mass is gut-wrenchingly high on that piece of shit. There are plenty of other reasons to NOT get a Hummer. If you want a Hummer, get the real thing (AM General HMMWV, diesel), not the sluggish H2 (based on a Suburban).
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
First off, something's really worth what people will pay for it. If people are spending $28,000 for a car than that car is worth at least $28,000 to those people. Obviously, it's not worth that much to you but your mileage varies from those of others.
Second, there's a little something called inflation. While that fully loaded car costed $17k 1998, 6 years of compounded 2.5% inflation would mean that it should cost about $19.5k today all else being equal.
Third, Those cars aren't equal, however. Today's cars, however, typically get better mileage while having more horsepower (except SUV's). This improvement in technology isn't free. While some aspects of cars remain the same, there are plenty of features being added. If you don't want those features, you don't have to buy them.
Life isn't a vast conspiracy out to screw you. It just seems that way.
You forget that a long time ago the average car lasted for 15 - 20 years. My father owns a mercedez benz. Of course we know they are german cars. Cars themselves lasted longer. After a certain period automobile manefacturers actually redesigned their cars to break down easier so they can get make more money repairing cars. This has been proven.
You can buy a mercedez benz and it will cost you 20,000 for the version that will break down in 5 years. However my father paid a lot for his a long tiem ago and it started breaking down after 20 years. Then he traded it in, for the B and C type models (Im sure you einsteins know what those are and how they deal with frame configuration)
The mileage was good on the old ones, but diesel fuel became hard to come by. The new ones have a different frame, that annoys me and has broken down twice already and my father is a n00b who couldnt take care of a car if he tried outside the standard servicing visits.
Rememebr that Americans, Europeans and Asians think differently when it comes to purchasing cars.
My 1995 Caprice Classic with an LT-1 will be running long after your 2004 Ricers are dead. And it will still outrun the Newer Ricers and most BMWs.
Screw Ya'!
... are on a computerised system and if they can't get your used part on the spot, they can search a mutual database and find it for you and get it shipped in. There's even some online sources for that last I looked.
ME, you couldn't give me an expensive new car to use. I would take it of course and sell it as fast as possible. I'd rather own a 60's or 70's vehicle that is simpler and I can work on myself, and for what they want for some sort of average new car you can rebuild most of the older models to better-than new condition, probably for 1/2 that price actually.. I think more people would do that, too, if you could get the same 60 month note on them that they only offer for new or almost new models.
I just can't see in the future any sort of coolness factor to WOW I GOTZ ME A 92 COROLLA, ALL CHERRY!!1!! as opposed to-f'instance- WOW, I GOTZ ME A 69 BOSS MUSTANG, ALL CHERRY!!11!1.
New cars are disposable in some respects because they are so... undistinguishable, no character to most of them. That and what the article says.
Yes, I know, mileage and whatnot. That could be addressed with some newer technology being ported to the older cars, in particular they should have intakes/heads that make use of the variable activated solenoid valve systems, etc., and they really could re explore the adiabatic engine designs of smokey yunick and pogue for mileage increases. that stuff just worked and wasn't pie in the sky. That and just burn cleaner fuel to start with, and not pure petroleum products. Methanol and ethanol in particular are much cleaner burning without resorting to expensive doo dads that once b0rken are near impossible to fix cheaply, or even get analysed correctly. They make propane carbs now and are quite common, that could be used in conjunction with a methane system, burn that, get it from any biomass that can rot anaerobically.
SOME of the new technology is nice, a lot of it is busy work with little gain to it at huge expense.
And DON'T get me started on NeoConStar technology. Last I knew, the borg were the BAD GUYS.
Well, my opinion anyway. I'm gonna stick with my oldies for as long as possible. I LIKE 30 buck starters and 5 buck headlights, they work perfectly fine for a long time, then easily replaced. Stuff like that. If it really starts to suck,gas costs, enviro hassles, cost of vehicles, etc..well... I'll will quite literally switch to horses. Grow your own fuel, more or less environmentally friendly exhaust, and you can grow your own replacement vehicles. Something to be said for advanced bioengineering technology like that.
...demand from overseas now, in particular, the next economic powerhouse of the world, china.
At least that is what I understand it to be. From what I have read china will surpass the US within ten more years or so, and I am betting it will be sooner than that. Especially when you consider the federal reserve funny buck is dropping in international "worth" as fast as it is.
I'm sitting on several tons now,back to metals, looks like crap, to me, cash in the bank making interest. I like metals, save them, precious to mundane and common, they are all valuable. Don't own a single paper or electronic stock though.....
Umm .... My 91 Honda Accord is at 411,000+ KM (255 383.56 miles) right now and is working great. It needed some work (engine tune up ... ) but if you do the regular oil changes and keep the engine tuned it will be fine and run efficiently.
... why would I ever want another one?)
Again - maintenance always helps and usually solves most of these problems. Sure I have a rust spot here or there, but that's what I get for not keeping my car cleaned better throughout the winter highway salt madness.....
(BTW: I've had nothing but bad luck with North American vehicles
I heard on the news today that mid sized sedans like the camary and accord do bad in crashes involving full sized SUVs.
By buying a SUV you have a higher risk of injuring people in smaller cars and your raising insurance costs of other drivers.
SUV's also suck on gas and usually have big engines that use a lot of oil. I am aware there are FWD 4 cylinder SUV's. But there are many new exciting cars coming out including RWD sedans with v8's, big trunks, more efficent engines and better interior space.
They can bring Indians here to do the job. Or Pakistanis or Mexicans or Nigerians or Candians or Arabs or whatever. Just because the job can't be outsourced doesn't mean it can't be globalized. If you rely on a paycheck to pay the rent, then you are threatened by the globalization of the workforce.
...when my CE light blinks and I'm in the middle of nowhere (wherever that is), I can connect my laptop to the car and figure out if I should keep going or not.
I heard of a report (yes, someone actually studied this scientifically) that explained that the entire "blinding" problem of HID lamps can be entirely explained by that fact that funny colors of the HID lamps catch people's attention, and so they look at them. Don't look into the lights. If you look away from HIDs the same way you look away from halogens, then there is no problem.
People putting obnoxious driving lights on their crappy wannaberacecars was just as bad with halogens and xenons as it now is with HIDs.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
On the other hand, I'm sure that a new car produces a lot of pollution before it's even started -- because of the manufacturing processes (plastics, steel, aluminium, etc.). (I've even heard criticism of requiring catalytic converters because the metallurgy produces a lot of pollution -- although I personally believe this comes from cranks who think that catalytic converters reduce their power and "performance"). And of course disposing of old cars produces pollution too.
So where's the balance?
The Saudi Shieks used their cheap & easy access to oil to screw unsuspecting, side burn wearing, muscle car lovers in the 70's. By the 80's, Rabbits and K-Cars hit the scene, but the shieks had diversified by buying huge chunks of big American companies (and banks) on the stock market.
Their moneys multiplied to the point where giving a few hundred million to a good Muslim like Osama or some other heartfelt, dipshit cause was no skin off their noses. Banks (ie BCCI) were used to channel cash to such causes. They think of it as buying their way back into Paradise, just like rich Catholics of centuries gone by bought indulgences from the Church. Paradise insurance. Just in case.
Others are interested in playing power polititcs. Such activities would include partnering up with aspiring politicos from Texas to keep the oil based circle jerk going.
As long as they have any left, their oil will always be cheaper and more profitable than ours. Their money will go to buy power and influence in America and to "terrorist/freedom fighting" causes around the globe. As long as we keep pouring oil down the drain, we'll be helping them.
So what if these rich, towel wearing fuckers go broke? Anybody think that will increase terrorism if a few hundred billionaires go bust? You think these guys are going to fly a plane into a building? Never! But they might pay some idealistic middle class kids to. Poverty doesn't cause terrorism, it just gives a base of volunteers with nothing to lose and nothing better to do than throw rocks or wear bombs. Arms dealers don't sell weapons for free, you know.
Decades of handing over wealth & power to people whose ideals are closer to our enemies than to our friends has helped make our current situation a reality.
Page after blacked out page of congressional reports would have told you the same thing in much better detail...if Bush & Co didn't censor it.
No affiliation with any of these sites, but I recommend:
http://www.brickboard.com for technical advice on Volvos (anything from 1960 to now, basically)
http://www.ipdusa.com for performance suspension components and other tuning stuff for the older Volvos. With appropriately up-sized swaybars and poly suspension bushings, an old 240 becomes quite a good handling car. They also sell performance camshafts for the 4 cylinder engines that add a little bit of power at the expense of having to use premium gas.
http://www.turbobricks.com for tech advice on turbocharged Volvos or adding a turbo to an older Volvo.
-b0s0z0ku
Now that they're in the process of:
-toppling US economic dominance
-stealing all our jobs with help from Wal-Mart & other American co-conspirators, filling them with near slave-wage workers & political prisoners
-making our democracy look more like theirs
-soiling the environment and adding a billion to the list of mindless consumers
-and other shit I'm too lazy to type...probably involving WMD and threatened border expansion
Aren't we glad they gave up Communism and joined the rest of the world?
What part of that did I understand?
the headlight bit of this story is absurd, dunno where they got that but if the original poster thinks that you will believe that HID headlights normally cost 3k to replace... they're either painfully ignorant or think that you are. They are expensive yes, and more energy efficient and far longer lived (and many many more advantages). ;-)
Oh, and while I'm ranting, all the folks who think they should control what other people drive should... run their own lives first.
Additional free advice: when driving at night look at the road and the right road edge, not directly into other peoples headlights
And finally, since my newest vehicle is 20 years old, no I do not have HID lights myself.
Making these cars more expensive doesn't make them more disposable. It makes their mechanics more valuable. Like in Stephenson's _Snow Crash_, we might just wake up as a nation of mechanics (and 1337 pizza delivery). Different subsystems in the cars interacting in diagnosable and tweakable configs means work for humans diagnosing and configuring. And when the logic, sensors and actuators are all field programmable, American cars might be the platform in which parallel processing, dataflow, evolved realtime optimizations.
--
make install -not war
I think this article needs to calm down from its panic mode. Disposable cars will not be the result of making cars more expensive to build. I don't think that the author has ever dealt with an insurance company.
The car mentioned throughout a good part of the article is BMW. I've owned two BMWs in the past. I also had a friend who owned a BMW. We always assumed that if one of us wrecked our car, the insurance company would total it out. It turned out to be true in his case. In my case, they didn't total it out but there was only paint damage. (Both of my BMWs died peacefully of old age.)
My point is that insurance companies will not gamble on a few thousand dollars when they can just give you the car's current value and still make money selling the car off to a surplus broker. Any car with a high resale value will a target for premature totalling out, even without expensive components because:
$pay_you_off_money - $get_from_wholesale_buyer > $cost_to_fix_car
I can gaurantee you that if BMWs start getting totaled out over airbag costs too frequently, somebody is going to start manufacturing (relatively) cheap aftermarket airbags so that car dealers can snatch up these "totaled" cars from the insurance companies and turn a nice profit reselling them. If not, then it will be the BMW dealerships who snatch these cars back up and refit them with airbags since they get a break in price.
Also, I imagine that somebody is going to figure out how to fashion a steel bracket to hang their radiator from in new F-150s once theirs breaks and they learn that a factory replacement costs $300.
And don't forget that all of these new expensive components will come down in price over time and some car companies will not use the parts until they are cheap. Just look at Fuel Injection, Power Steering, Anti-Lock Brakes, etc...
Market Capitalism replaced with Technology Unit Pricing.
Experts predict rapid growth in stone age technologies.
Plumber-Butt 3.0, here to take a look at that clog...
A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
"One solution, btw, is not to abandon the better quality parts, but to create an open parts standard. The more cars that use a specific part, the more generic offerings there are and the cheaper those offerings become. There's also more parts available from used auto parts catalogues."
This guy is DEAD ass on Take a look at the Semi industry, for YEARS you have been able to swap engines and drive components between a freightliner, Mack, Kenworth whatever. when they need a part they NEED IT NOW not a damn dealer runaround as you find in regular automotive.
"Flying" disposable cars! I can't wait! I'm sure they are just around the corner!
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
We've actually seen this before - it's true that guided reflectors are the way to go for solar power generation, but you don't want to aim them at a water column if you need electricity after dark. Instead, use the light to head up molten salt, which can hold lots of thermal energy for a fair amount of time, then pipe the salt past water pipes to make the steam to run your turbines. Yes, it seems more indirect but you can keep to power flowing up to 100% of the time without relying on batteries. Keeping the energy in thermal form and transferring it from one medium to another is more efficient than converting it from thermal to kinetic to electrical to chemical (when you store it in a battery), then back to electrical. Here's the extensive (though a couple years old) Boeing Solar Power Tower page, and here's an update on applications of the tech from people planning the nuke dump in New Mexico.
A simpler kind of solar tower is a chimney made of lightweight drawing air through a sprawling greenhouse. The floor of the greenhouse absorbs heat all day and reradiates it at night to drive turbines continuously. Australia may soon have a gargantuan solar chimney built for them by a company called Enviromission.
My idea of Utopia is when every single person on the planet has their own personal selection cars. A sporty number for fun trips. A people carrier for when your are taking family and friends. An SUV for off road expeditions.
:-(
We humans really have made the planet a wonderful place to live. If only we can achieve enough wealth and prosperity to make this dream a reality for all mankind then that would be something to shout about.
On the roads it was a white line nightmare. Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice. And in this maelstrom of decay, ordinary men were battered and smashed.
"Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should...."
A computer can more optimally adjust the ignition timing, fuel to air ratios, accessory loading, etc, than merely mechanical components. However, that doesn't mean that a computer controlled engine is immune to failure; it depends on the ethics and design principles of the engineers who built it. That said, computers have definitely improved the driving experience of the average driver.
Because the computer runs the engine, changing ignition timing or fuel delivery is as simple as replacing an EPROM or (possibly?) uploading new software. But more, some engine electronics enable capabilities that mechanical systems could _never_ provide. For example:
There's a saying among Chevy enthusiasts, "Those who'd rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy usually do...." Yes, it is true that you can fix vintage vehicles much more easily than computerized ones, and if you buy one, you might just end up fixing it more often than you'd like. What it comes down to is that at a certain point, it is going to cost more to keep an older vehicle running than it would to buy a new one.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Dodge makes good cars, the problem is that mechanics don't know how to fix them. They use Dextron III ATF instead of chrysler automatic transmission fluid and bam, there goes the transmission. The fundamentals are the same but the implementation is different. I've seen so many examples of incompetent mechanics destroying cars...this is just one of many examples. The mechanic, even if he knew afterward, would not own up to it. Really mechanics don't want to see a car more than 10 years old, if they see one they try to get rid of it because they don't want problems. They don't want to spend the time to troubleshoot, and 80s cars with emissions equipment trouble many cases cannot be fixed legally because the smog equipment is so shoddy and expensive (most people rip it out but mechanics can get in big trouble for doing that). That is why you need to either fix it yourself, or sell it to someone who will fix it for themself.
The japanese make excellent cars also, late model japanese cars being better than late model american cars. However, anybody who doesn't know about the amazing chrysler slant six engine really has not lived the automotive existence. Google search chrysler slant six and learn about indestructability.
They want to dictate to you how/when/where you may be permitted to operate it too.
They also really wish they could also make you pay them for every use of it in addition to the original purchase cost... kind like condominiums, you buy it, then you still pay rent on top of that, and it's never ever really yours.
10 years ago, you might have claimed that carpenters can't be outsourced either. Yet we find that former carpenter jobs are now going to illegal immigrants.
Is the plumbing trade THAT much more difficult that an illegal cannot do the work like most other trades (bricklayer, electrician, gardener , etc...)
You can certainly fit a LOT of plumbers and mechanics on an airplane. You can fit just about as many as all those programmers they've shipped over to the US.
Finally, the latest tech is ALWAYS more expensive. Once you produce stuff in volume, it gets WAY cheaper. The auto industries BIGGEST cost is the lack of standardized and parts and mechanisms. They've started picking up with "platform technologies". That is, they produce a chassis and engine package and then slap different shells on top of it.
The Boyd Coddington effort to make standard part interconnection could cut a LOT of cost out of the auto industry. The use of MORE standardized parts like air filters, oil filters, transmissions etc... could help as well.
The auto industry will naturally resist. They've had standardization in their power for a VERY long time. They play the same game as the multiple vendors of different memory card formats. They want to make money sell parts.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Lol... So I have an 88 BMW 528e, about 28 MPG or so without variable valve timing and all the tricks... whee.
Perhaps they were referring to the gaps that occur between the body and doors? I know that's an issue with some vehicles.. they are all different
'Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.'
Maybe they're the best in that they won't find or push for a real solution to the problem. I see the fit now - what other profession is as good at making sure the things they work on is hard to fix?
..which I first developed around 5 years ago, indicates to me china will be forced to go agressive expansionist before 2010, at least to the point of insurung an adequate oil supply. and I don't think they intend to pay for it, of if so, they will be swapping goods for oil.
they are increasing their military at 10% a year, all geared towards force-projection capabilities, and consider assymetrical warfare to be a tight integrated component to their entire battleplans.
Not a whole lotta places with oil around then, either...
It was called the Volkswagen Beetle;-)
I hear it was quite popular in some circles.
Pretty much everything you can imagine has been, and is still being done to Bugs.
than it takes to make it.
:) This has been demonstrated. Not sure what carcinogens you are referring to (perhaps additives such as MTBE? - but I belive gasoline or some of the substances in gasoline such as benzene are).
Yep, you read that correctly. The amount of fuel that powers the car is the primary energy expenditure. I didnt realize that until I looked at some of the literature.
Some numbers from a Life Cycle Inventory (USCAR AMP Project) noted Paper 982160 Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc.
Operational Phase: 84% of the energy
Material Production and Manufacturing: 14%
The rest would include mining and disposal.
Granted, one can argue about environmental impacts of the various activities, but the LCI does not deal with this.
This is based on a "life" of 120,000 years of a 1995 sedan (average of Intrepid/Lumina/Taurus). But your Volvo isn't going to be much different.
Oh, and cars running on catalytic converters with unleaded gas tend to have fewer emissions than those running on leaded fuel without cat. converters.
You are of course aware of the massive amounts of lead released into the environment by the use of leaded fuels? They are found in lake sediments anywhere powered boats where/are used. Lead released by motor vehicles also had a habit of accumulating in people who lived near roadways...causing lead poisoning
I was bored one weekend and decided to take a look at some of the BMWs at my local dealership. They sales man told me that if I qualified, I could be on a ten year car payment plan! TEN YEARS!!??? Fuck that. I might as well lease the fucker, drive low milage, then hand over the keys for a new one.
I honestly believe this is the new game in America. They WANT you to lease the car so they can recoop most of they profit from you. Then, they ship that same car overseas. Wash..rense..repeat.
Folks, don't even bother with trying to OWN a $40 car. Your better of leasing it. They set the price that way for the very reason.
Life is not for the lazy.
Actually without a solid roll bar system a 5-point harness is a bad idea.. But I agree.. Someone please sell me a new 3-series with no airbags. or give me an engine and tranny from it for my 2002.
You also make the mistake of assuming price = quality. You talk of cheap American car parts. I dream of them - I am very unusual in UK in that I own (and work on) an American car (Jeep Cherokee). The price of its spares here is astronomical, I can tell you. The price of spares is all to do with what the market can stand, and in UK the Jeep is considered exotic, hence the prices. The quality is OK though, and it is the most reliable car I have ever known.
I also do repairs on other family cars - British Rover, German VW and French Renault. I am not impressed by the quality of the VW build, nor its reliablity despite the hype around this marque. Electrical wiring is nearly as thin as cotton thread, and a plastic chamber in the fuel line is so feeble that a stub pipe snapped off it while I was detaching the hoses to it. So little thought seems to have been given to the need to work on the car during its life, that I am suprised that they didn't weld up the bonnet (hood).
It is a hobby of the British to criticise Rovers (and most other things British), but I would say it has the best build quality of the bunch.
It does not take much to keep a car going for many years. I reckon I am a master at it. The wear of bearings etc that makes a car feel old, lose oil etc, is only a tiny % of its total mass, and these wearing parts (like those control arm swivels) are or could be made easily replacable. The other factor is rust, which makers could easily stop with galvanising or making certain parts replacable. For example the bodywork parts of the Land Rovers of the 1960's can be replaced by any competent small workshop (all flat plates rivetted to frames) and many of 40-50 years old can be seen in daily heavy use in the country areas of the UK.
Even if your car remains accident-free, some of today's high-tech parts can leave you with big repair bills. The celebrated find for car thieves these days is xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights. They can cost up to $3,000 each. That's just for the part, not labor.
If a car costs $30k, a pair of headlights is 20% of the cars value. WTF?!?!? There has to be some serious (and I mean SERIOUS) retail markup on those things, or else the cost reflects not just the bulb but the entire headlight assembly as well.
"Activating" a headlight assembly from the manufacturer after a repair? What, are these things made by Microsoft? (had to say it, sorry)
I used to think it might be neat to get a set of these...not anymore.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix
Funny, I thought it was those $2,000 plastic fenders...
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Could water in the brake fluid change its PH? Brake fluid does tend to get water contaminated over the years.. but still....
That is funny!
If I have to drive at night on 290 between Houston and Austin, I will wear my Oakleys to keep myself from being blinded. I honestly don't see how these HID lights are DOT industry approved. They are way to bright in my opinion.
The only thing missing on my nightly trips is the song "Sunglasses at Night" by Corey Hart playing in the background.
Life is not for the lazy.
"The increased use of expensive electronics,"
becouse we all know who expensive electronics are....isn't that an oxymoron
Surprisingly, methanol is very corrosive to certain metals, such as magnesium. If you're unlucky enough to have the wrong metals in your fuel system, you're screwed.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Some of this stuff sounds like auto manufacturers are trying to make sure replacemnt parts can only be ordered from the manufacturer. It the same bullsh*t printer companies were trying to do by sticking smart chips into their replacement printer cartridges. $3000 headlights that the manufacturer has to "activate" are a total scam.
This is the exact reason I drive a '78 El Camino, its carborated... no computer except my sound system. It has plenty of power to outrun the new electic POSes. It is still a small pickup... When It gets damaged its not a big deal...
In the old days, with a sliderule handling 2 or 3 significant figures, you'd round up forces and round down material strengths.
:)
EXACTLY.
Not to mention, though it seems you already have, that the way in which businesses manage to pull off planned obsolesence nowadays isn't like it was in the 50s and 60s. Back then, they'd just throw ads at you saying you weren't a real man unless you had the new (whatever).
Nowadays, they still throw the ads at you insulting your masculinity, but they also have Ph.D's working overtime to manufacture cars that break down the hour after your warranty has expired. CV joints are one thing -- body rust is another. Take an old Chevy or Ford and you've got enough steel to work with for the next couple hundred years, providing you've got enough Bondo.
And as this article points out, it's far, far more difficult to work on your car these days than it has been. You can buy yourself a 60's American car and fix it up for peanuts (if you know what you're doing). Hell, the experience can be an educational, to boot.
And at the end of it, you've get a boss Mustang with a 429 that I can fix with real tools anytime I have to, while they've only got a crappy Civic with an "aero-wing" glued on the back that requires a diagnostic computer to tell you what you already know is wrong with it. Easy choice.
One of the reasons (excuses?) John Z. DeLorean gave for the stainless steel skin on the automobile that bore his name was that it would never rust, thus avoiding what DeLorean saw as built-in obsolescence in cars made by conventional manufacturers with conventional materials. He backed that up by advertising a 25-year warranty on the car's body.
It might not be easier, but wouldn't it be a significantly better investment to build cars meant to last as long as possible rather than cars meant to be thrown away?
I agree with you on your first point - it takes a LOT of resources to make a car, and the production of those raw materials (and the energy used) is HUGE. With that said...
When an automobile is "scrapped", 99.9% of the car is recycled. I don't know about you, but I have been to scrap yards and auto yards in my life, and every time I go, I am amazed.
Amazed at the level of recycling: For an automobile, first all of the fluids are drained from the car. For those fluids that can be (gasoline and oils, mainly), they are recycled back into the oil industry and other oil-based manufacturers (asphalt, and similar, mainly). Then, any parts which may have resale or remanufacturing value are removed - typically the engine, transmission, radiator, drive shafts, etc - all removed, and tested. Some are set aside for direct sales out of the yard (fun places to go - a section here for engines, another here for driveshafts, over there for chassis' - on and on). Others are put in a pile to be sent on to remanufacturers, who will take the parts apart, recycle the bad parts as scrap metal, clean and repair the rest, and sell those to places like AutoZone and Checker. Seats are kept, dashboards are kept, motors and such are kept. Whatever is left over is then sent on to the shredder.
Yeah, that's right - they SHRED the car. First the car is mashed flat (they don't do blocks anymore, I don't think). Up a conveyor belt, over and down into the hopper. At the bottom of the hopper are these huge hammers turning at crazy speeds (you would not want to fall in), which litterally pounds the vehicle apart. Over a series of grates to separate large chunks from small chunks, the chunks go through a series of magnets and air jets to separate light materials from heavy materials, ferrous from non-ferrous. All sorted into piles.
These piles are then sent on by rail for recycling - generally via ship (not much smelting done here in the States anymore) to China or something, where they are re-smelted into raw materials which we buy back to make into - TADA! - new cars.
Now, I am not saying that no pollution occurs because of this, nor am I saying that it is an "energy efficient" process. But it isn't nearly as bad as going with completely raw materials, and in a lot of cases, those remanufactured/recycled "whole parts" keep existing cars going on the road, sometimes long, long after the model (and sometimes the "dealer" - think International Pickups) has ceased to exist - thus helping the environment even more.
It simply isn't the days of throw-it-away-and-bury-it (never really was with automobiles - the automobile industry is a major recycler, always has been). Regular scrapyards do a similar thing, but with all sorts of scrap metal, not just vehicles (though many don't do one-off to-the-public sales of stuff, like many auto-yards will)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
What an incredibly whiny article!
The major thrust of car safety design for the last 10-20 years has been that the car should be written off to protect the occupants. Therefore: airbags, crumple zones, seat-belt pre-tensioners and tension limiters, collapsing steering columns, staged failure of structural elements...
The BMW quoted in the article performed very well: the occupant was uninjured, the passenger cell was not breached. The damage looks minor specifically because the structural components are meant to be hardest and fail last. In that minute, the owner spent $30k to prevent their child from being killed or paralyzed. (Whether they still think that was a good deal is another question...)
If they'd been driving an older car, it might well have been repairable after a rollover: more steel, more parts that bend plastically rather than breaking or crumpling, no airbags. On the other hand, if they'd been driving an older car, they might have been dead.
It's pretty simple: if you don't want to write off your car, don't flip it over!
"A good landing is one you walk away from. A perfect landing is where they can use the plane again."
But the point being: thanks to all those adaptable electronic controls, the motor only occasionally ran poorly no matter what. A couple of times it didn't start well, but then a minute later it started right up... until one bright and shiny morning, it didn't start at all.
Of course, the pollutants and resulting fire probably killed in that one instance more animal life than will every be killed by thirteen Hummer dealerships' worth of cars being driven off-road.
The ELF has done things like this before. They burned down an apartment complex being built near my home to protest "urban sprawl." Say what?
1. The apartment complex was being built in the middle of the city, nowhere near the city limits.
2. The smoke and ash from the fire poisoned the air in a 2-mile radius for the next two days.
3. Any wildlife that had been living near the construction was killed by the heat from a 4-story all-wood bonfire. We could feel the heat from half a mile away as if we were right next to our fireplace; windows on that side of our apartment complex melted from the heat. You think any nearby animals survived the blaze?
4. What do you think the owner of the property did? Do you think he saw the error of his ways? He ordered more wood. More dead trees. What else could he do? (The families you say that are now "safe in their midsize sedans" did not reconsider their purchases. They went to other dealers, or waited longer. They didn't change their behavior because of some arsonist's rationalization.)
5. There had been coyotes, rabbits and rattlesnakes living there before construction began. They were still there after construction began. They weren't there after the fire.
6. I hated the construction of that apartment complex for the noise, dirt, and turning a nice desert hillside between me and the interstate into one of urban construction. Once the ELF burned down the apartment complex, however, I felt sympathy for the people building it. I now cheer on the construction. This is significant; the ELF's actions not only have considerable harm on the environment, they turn hearts and minds AGAINST the environmental cause, and towards supporting developers. Besides, there are no more animals there; the ELF saw to that.
The ELF does more to harm the environment and environmental policy than the very people they seek to harm. What's more, their acts of arson turn people's hearts against the environmental cause. Given that, I find it difficult to believe that the ELF really believes in the cause they claim to promote.
The ELF needs to admit that they just like burning things, and stop the pseudo-environmental posing. That is the best thing they can do for the environment at this point.
That no-one, save a few high-minded slashdot moderators, is impressed with your miserly, no-car having ways.
Especially the auto manufacturers and car lots.
Ah, but instead of flaming you and just walking away, I am at least decent enough to try and tell you why: Simple Math.
The manufacturers are presented with a supply problem: they can ship N cars/day, and those cars have to represent the spectrum of most likely requested features.
These numbers must be statistically derived from previous sales- and projections of competitor's sales, suspicions about which way the overall population is leaning on these 'package' issues (if things are looking up, people tend to get fully loaded vehicles) and so forth.
Non auto purchasing households that are 'outraged' that a ridiculously unpopular trim level isn't immediately available are so far down on the "give a shit" list for these guys that to suppose they might ever change their ways is the sheerest idiocy. I suppose it also never occured to you that you could order a specific set of options and wait for delivery. whatever.
We haven't even come to the part where we must consider that the auto manufacturers must make these calculations outside the 3-6 months it takes from the first spot weld to populating the dealer lots, yet any of the factors involved might change in a matter of weeks.
Face it-- you are an aberation and your opinion in this matter is worth next to nothing. You aren't even close to describing a 'problem' that the industry might or will 'fix'. The fickle nature of consumer-land is a harsh mistress, and freaks and misfits are the first ones subtracted out of the equation.
You drive a Civic.... Not a Race Car. (With apologies to Maddox)
Hey--thanks for the pointers! I'd heard of brickboard adn also bought a few things from IPD, but didn't know about turbobricks.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
(ps all you idiots who jack your truck up and don't recalibrate the beam angle on your headlights so as not to blind oncoming traffic should be forced to drive a small 3-4cylinder 2door for a month, at night!)
You are so right, that is so damn annoying, and where I live it seems like they design their landscaping with the presumption that you are in a truck or otherwise much higher than a small 4-cyl coupe, making the navigation of the local grocery store parking lot potentially hazardous, even in the daytime.
====---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
A few years ago the auto recycler I was working for bought a salvaged SUV. It was apparently in perfect condition- no dents or other damage. It was only about a year old. So, what happened that caused the insurance company to write it off? Well, it got into an "up to the door handles" situation in a creek while the owner was out "4-wheelin'," which is what an SUV is supposed to be built for, notwithstanding their more normal use as intimidating automotive pit bulls. When the car was winched out of the creek and dried out, it wouldn't start. In an older model, it would have just been a matter of drying out the distributor and changing oil, but this was new technology. The computer under the passenger seat had been immersed, as had the wiring harnesses. When the insurance company totaled up the cost of a new computer, new wiring harnesses, labor and a few other items, it turned out to be cheaper to scrap the car than to fix it! Postscript: My employer simply removed the needed parts from an identical model that had been rolled, installed the stuff in the wannabe submarine, and sold it for a healthy profit.
1) Xenon HID systems do not cost $3k per bulb. Maybe for a Mercedes SLK 600, but every part on that sort of automobile is pricey for the simple fact that not many are sold, plus you have to add in the fact that many luxury car owners feel like they MUST spend thousands of dollars simple components because they feel a sense of quality with the expenditure.
2) 100 pages? I have a stack of books for cars ranging from 1969 to 1998. The repair manual for a 65 VW Beetle is approx 1200 pages alone. The one for the 69 Corvette is 980 pages. Are we comparing 1/10th of a manual from the old days to the vast archive of information available today? The one for my 98 Volvo is 1100 pages, but it does not cover the "propritary" information such as how to decode OBD signals and turn them into readable codes.
3) Labor Shortage?? Riight. Why are there very few mechanic jobs posted in my local paper? There are about 20x the number of open IT positions compared to mechanical repair.
/born to be a mechanic, forced into IT due to a lack of jobs/income associated with auto/commercial truck repair.
I Own a 1982 VW Rabbit Desiel. 432,000 miles. 1 transmission, 2 head gaskets. various shocks, tires, struts and filters. other than that, nothing.
They can spend their days nodding off & talking shit
Pharmacuetical diamorph doesn't cost much more to make than aspirin
Unless that Town Car had 300,000 miles on it, I'd say death of a '95 indicates neglect of maintenance. Cars last *forever* these days if you PTFM (Perform The Freakin' Maintenance). I've ridden in Townies with 300K miles and the heads never been off the motor -- and that with so-so maintenance.
All you poor laid off IT workers... here's your exciting new career! They can't ship cars to India for repair!
Not to mention those soccer moms in SUV's that tail your car with those headlights so they beam into your car at eyelevel. Then they honk when you just flat out stop in the middle of the road and give them the finger.
"If Americans can get cars for $2,000 instead of $20,000, they'll (theoretically) have another $18,000 kicking around to buy other products. The 5% of Americans who just lost their jobs will now be making those other products, most likely."
You're ASSUMING that everthing else will stay equal. IT WILL NOT. If you're working at Wal-Mart because your high-paying job went overseas then that car will be a bigger bite out of your paycheck, and that's on top of everything else. Just hope that prices drop on everything across the board, or you're even more screwed (housing is poor people's biggest expense).
...even if you beg Midas for scrap pipe and weld it yourself. If you don't, exhaust gas can build up under the car and get inside the cabin and poison you. (The muffler is optional though)
--no, they will have to get primarily mid east oil. That's it for the big pools that are useful,where they can use their surplus petro dollars and exchange manufactured goods for crude, although they are contracting for siberian natural gas now. siberian oil isn't in the ball park for what they need, ithas to be BIG amounts and easy to get. They will reluctantly cooperate with russia at this time and for the next little while, as they are milking russia R&D-they have top-shelf thinkers there. The chinese are are negotiating now with venezuela on getting their oil as a stop gap, and they might get it unless uncah sugah pops chavez, which I am sure is past the planning stage now.
My guess is they will use a coterie of influenced younger radicals in a few mideast nations, get them bought off enough so those elements can stage a normal coup, with china being the big winner. I would watch sudan in particular, has great potential for a staging area (they are already the largest group of foreign "engineers" there,thousands of them, cross trained of course), along with iran, which has some really great fields left and a younger generation ready for a change and not big fans of the US anymore.
They have NO choice in the matter. None. Zero. that's why it will happen. Population pressures of 1 and a third billion, huge manufacturing needs, needs for energy in all it's forms, combined with other global oil consuming pressures with more and more big fields already past peak production. It's inevitable, and why the design and direction of their new military colossus that on all accounts bears little resemblance to a domestic self defense force, it'ssimply not structured correctly for that, and absolutely no one wants to invade china, so you are left with "force projection".
Coincidentally, I've always thought they were fudging the public oil figures, and right now it's breaking news on royal dutch shell REALLY fudging the figures on known and proven reserves. The only place I think they are fudging to the low ball end is in the arctic, but they want to wait and hold that until it's worth a "lot more" than it's worth now, plus they have to make sure they get ownership of it, because it's really the US and canadian citizens property now for the most part. Everywhere else, nope, they have been proven to be inflating reserve numbers, which to me sets up the time table of major mideast moves by china by two years maybe, if they think they are ready enough. That would put the tip over part at around 8 years from now entering the highest starting- probability time frame, and increasing after that. My guess is they will try to bluff it at first, failing that selective strikes to take out potential retaliatory measures, although I don't think we are looking at full armageddon scenario,not quite yet, it could still get quite brutal and global in nature. And they also don't know what the status is in ethnic trait specific biowarfare agents, and they can't take the risk until they have an adequate weapon of their own as a counter threat. SARS wasn't a fluke, it was a WHOOPS. All the larger nations are developing bioweapons, this is so obvious.
Interesting times, yes?
Also, for what it's worth, the banksters have really fudged above ground reserves of precious metals. They've hedged so far into the future that it's unreal, and pressure is on globally to produce physical, and they are hemming and hawing about it. Take if from there.
When I was shopping for my Accent, I knew exactly what I wanted: Power everything, GT Package, black, but WITHOUT an automatic. None of the dealers had one. I asked if I could order one, and they said "Sorry, but there's no way to ask for a specific car; we just take what the factory feels like sending us!"
(I ended up with a gray one that happened to come in a few weeks later)
Now I finally have the proof to back up my agurement that we need a in-car DVD system because it's primary safety feature.
Just like Airbags and ABS.
My car will be getting a fully programable fuel injection system (sorta like K-jettronic or l-jetronic) Still will be cap and rotor and points though..
You might want to check on that.
There used to be a legal principle (in the UK) called 'betterment', so if the inusrance compay fitted new parts to your old rustheap you were partly liable for the cost, since the car was worth more repaired than it was before the accident.
Meanwhile here in Australia it is common practice for the insurance company to specify the use of secondhand parts. I do not know how they justify this.
Here in Russia, there are very few scrap yards, because the price of a new Russian car is about $5,000 USD (or less!) and the cost of the parts is miniscule. Even a brand new "Chevrolet Niva" (4-wheel Drive SUV) is $10,000. For example, a brand new door for a Lada 10 is about $30 USD. There are tons of 'third-party' suppliers for all parts, so pretty much everything is disposable. The only significant scrap yards are for foreign cars -- Mercedes, BMW, Range Rover, etc. A brand new headlight for a Lada is about $2.00 -- the same thing for a Mercedes is $300.00 (Which explains why I drive a Lada -- even though I don't particularly like it.) Between the lousy drivers, and the cheap cost of replacement parts... :)
Marty R. Milette - Custom Toolbars
if cars were like homes, you could envision owning one and getting spare parts for them .... not now...
Or you could buy a Miata (MX-5 outside the USA) which is the sort of car the owner can maintain.
Ever try replacing the oil filter?
Goddamned engineers need to talk to goddamn mechanics more often.
One of the reasons (excuses?) John Z. DeLorean gave for the stainless steel skin on the automobile that bore his name was that it would never rust
As I'm sure you already know, rust isn't the biggest problem with cars, unless you live in New England and have shoddy undercarriage spraying. You're far (far, far) more likely to get into an accident than live out your car body's life-expectancy. Even if stainless steel were easier to work with (and it's not), you've still got to take into account the "I've never seen one'a them before" factor when you take your wrecked Delorean into the shop. That can be quite a hit on the pocketbook.
Having worked in junk yards, I can tell you that:
...and the gasses and byproducts released by the smelting process is STILL a big source of pollution (even if it is in China).
1) "For an automobile, first all of the fluids are drained from the car. For those fluids that can be (gasoline and oils, mainly), they are recycled back into the oil industry and other oil-based manufacturers (asphalt, and similar, mainly)."
If you ever walked around a junk yard, you'll see that there's MANY areas where large quantities of those fliuds end up spilled on the ground and soak in. Ususally a car will sit in a spot while they sell off the parts and strip it (usually many years) and the fluids just leak all over the ground. Also, the ground in and around the shop usually has more oil in it than Texas. The engine storage areas are generally worst than a Tar Pit.
2) The metal is mostly recycled and a good portion of the plastic but, the old paint get burned off (in the recycling process) and ends up in the air (in China and thus all over the world), and parts like brake pads, hoses and glass end up in a hole in the ground usually.
3) "These piles are then sent on by rail for recycling - generally via ship (not much smelting done here in the States anymore) to China or something, where they are re-smelted into raw materials which we buy back to make into - TADA! - new cars."
It's so funny that people will buy cloth shopping bags to save a paper bag or two by getting a longer useful life from it but will not do the same with a car.
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
"Oh, and while I'm ranting, all the folks who think they should control what other people drive should... run their own lives first."
;-)"
I assume this is in reply to statement about making some jacked up truck owners drive somthing smaller. This was more my venting than a serious suggestion, I honestly don't care what you drive as long as your not doing somthing stupid that puts MY life and the lives of others at risk.
"Additional free advice: when driving at night look at the road and the right road edge, not directly into other peoples headlights
This is what I normally do (look away and watch the edge of my side of the road), the problem is these lights, especially on taller/jacked-up vehicles, are so bright as to seriously interfere with vision even in this case. And I've heard the same complaint from others and my night vision normal.
When you live a few miles back on a narrow road with NO street lights the reaction of the iris to that much light (even not directly into the eye) pretty much prevents seeing anything else till they re-adapt.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
And they do this when you refuse to speed up to say 20+ over the speed limit in an area where the local municipality will give you a speeding ticked for 15 over in a parked car anytime they want more revenue They're infamous for this, one local guy (inventer of 'OFF' spot remover and Gyro-cola) even devoted part of a comercial he paid for to shame them.
If I'm at or above the speed limit and someone wants to go faster. They shouldn't ride my a$$ because the best they can hope for is I'm in such a hurry myself I don't slow down till they back off. I'm not risking my life and getting a ticket (esp in a town where the judge will simply ingore the statements of 3 passengers and find you guilty anyway, had to 'apeal', won that though) or worse. Know what would happen if I had to emergency brake in Chevy Cavalier with a suv 3 feet off my rear bumper? And out here where a deer or big dog can run out into the road it can happen.
Now I'm not one of those people who think it's o.k. to tell others what to do when it's just thier lives,liberty,money,etc. on the line, but when it's mine they have now right to try and force me to take risks for convience or "cool factor".
Mycroft (sheesh am I ranting lately)
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
There are some work left to be done - perhaps scrap yards need to be lined (like dumps and some refineries are) and dirt berms set up before construction/opening?
As far as the paint being burned off in the smelting process - yes, I know this happens too, but smelting as a process, whether new or old metal is used - causes a lot of pollution (nature of beast, I suppose). I would hope that the metal from the brake pads would be recycled, that hoses would be chipped for roadways or something, and the glass would be reprocessed - if not, it should. But I do know that a certain percentage does end up in the landfill.
The point is, the whole car doesn't end up in a landfill in most cases, that there is a ton of recycling done so that the pieces and materials can be reused. I know it isn't a clean process, and that there is room for improvement. It will probably never be a completely clean process, but at least it currently exists for cars, unlike many other products. I suppose part of the reason is because cars aren't so easily "thrown away" and forgotten about, unlike say an alluminum can, which can be easily recycled, but people generally just throw them away because of the ease, rather than going through the "hassle" of sorting trash and taking it to a recycling center.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
As someone who has spent many hours in junkyards, I know that "auto recycling" is big business. From what I've seen at the specialised recylers, they base pricing on ~50% of the dealer's price, so if the dealer gets $3000 for those xeon [sic] headlights, they'll want $1500.
I drive a 75 and an 88 bmw. I totally agree with you man.. The one thing i didn't realize was that a slant
six dart get 28mpg? nice thing performs as well as my 88 bmw.
So, what kinda carb is on there?
You can get rid of the clickety click by adjusting the valve lash to within specs. According to my Chiltons, it's
Yup. But remember you have to set the valve lash when the engine is hot! I do it just before an oil change (that way, any dust which gets in is removed). Take off the valve cover, then put it back on held loosely by two bolts. Start the engine, let it idle until the upper rad hose gets hot. Then shut it off, unplug the ignition coil (so it can't somehow start when you're cranking it over by hand to set the lash on the open valves) and get busy with the feeler gauge.
When it's properly set, the Slant-6 will make a distinct valve lash noise when it's cold, but once it's warm, it'll be nearly silent.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Oh, you're pretty cool huh? You can tell that just by reading a few sentences on Slashdot. Well, in fact the smog guy said it wasn't unusual for a new motor to have readings below the detectable levels and it has driven for many thousands of miles and seems fine.
Jeez, look at the presumption on this nut job.