The Venezuelan government buys 15 meter long airships for surveillance. The city of Caracas has the "worlds worst figures for gun death".
So, taking a bit of a leap [jump with me if you wish]... The government of Venezuela is providing expensive 15 meter long floating targets for the people of Caracas to shoot at instead of shooting at each other...
You know, it just might be crazy enough to work...
I also indicated that there are industries that do not use a Windows box as their primary computer, but instead use alternate devices. Rather than requiring an additional device simply for calendar and e-mail, they can perform their business requirements on the same device that they perform their engineering/art/medical/etc. duties with.
Now, rather than forcing everyone in your organization to "standardize" on one application for windows e-mail / calendar on the Windows platform, and an alternate application on Solaris and yet a different on Red Hat, your IT department can offer up the "Mozilla" set for a "standard" interface amongst all platforms.
At my previous worksite, there were 1600 Windows devices, and 800 UNIX devices - not unusual in Oil & Gas. Of those 1600 Windows devices, 800 were used strictly for e-mail and calendar access by the 800 UNIX users, as there wasn't a single stable product that could work on both sides of this OS fence. This environment is IDEAL for the Thunderbird / Lightning product.
At my current worksite, there are considerably more Windows devices, and considerably fewer UNIX devices. They do not use Exchange / Outlook, but instead prefer to use Lotus Notes. This, too, results in a seperate e-mail solution for the UNIX users. This environment is not ideal for the Thunderbird / Lightning product, as they use Notes for their documentation engine.
No product will work best for everyone in every situation. But ranting about how Outlook is the only solution for everyone all of the time is ludicrous.
I will NEVER, EVER document what I did to a computer in any way more extended than "I had to buy this part. Here is a receipt for accounting and warranty." I will always keep each and every computer running and tweaked Just Right though. If you are unwilling document the configuration information on 5 desktop computers, how do you expect to work in an environment that has 500 [or more] computers? Good luck getting or keeping a job in any company that trades on the NYSE with that attitude.
I'll say what has been implied thus far, but you seem to fail to grasp.
This product does not have the same feature set that Outlook provides. With the addition of Lightning (which admittedly, is still in pre-release form), it offers the additional feature of calendar management that has been lacking in Thunderbird to date.
However, there is currently *no* other product that operates on a plethora of platforms and operating systems that offers a consistant feature set and user interface. In this regard, Thunderbird wins - hands down.
If you can show me Outlook running on 2 non-Microsoft operating systems, providing the same array of features that Outlook currently provides for Windows, I will concede.
Interestingly enough, had this been a discussion about a car model - a comment about a 2-seat sports car being a competitor to a Corvette say - it would not carry the assumption that the product was available for sale in the US.
All things being equal, your experiences with a US market GM product would be different than your experience with a Japanese market Mazda product. There are many differences - inline-4 vs. v8, left hand drive vs. right, guages in English vs. Japanese - but ultimately they provide the same basic functionality.
Having said that, in this case Thunderbird *does* have the ability to compete with Outlook on the Windows front whereas Outlook does NOT have the ability to compete with Thunderbird on any of the other operating systems. Outlook will not run on openVMS, Solaris, etc.
Now, I'll address a few things in your response...
Do you know how many of those I care about at work? Exactly none. And neither does pretty much anyone else in the target market for this product. Apparently you believe that there is room for exactly one collaboration tool in the universe. You seem to be oblivious to the market that exists outside the Windows space. Exchange integration isn't an option for people who regularly use MacOS*, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, linux, OS/2, etc. My doctor uses a Macintosh computers in his office, I have an Ultra 80 at my desk, and support engineers running Blade's at theirs. My coworker uses HP-UX primarily, and he has clients that only have openVMS running on DEC Alphas. Are we not in the target market for this product? You, as a Windows user, have a product available to you that easily facilitates collaboration. You are *not* the target market for this product. [note: I am aware that there is an Outlook client for MacOS, but it's functionality is quite limited]
What I do care about is how well it integrates with Exchange Server I, too, wish that there was a panacea to allow this product set to interact with Exchnage server without modification. But, you are correct. There is nothing that indicates integration with Exchange. There are plugins to allow access to web-based mail servers, it will connect to Exchange via smtp or pop, but does no callendar integration.
...a mistaken belief that users care more about philosophy than functionality... How is a comment like this any different from the "Microsoft at all costs" mantra? Ultimately there is a market that does not believe that a Microsoft product suits thier needs.
In *this* religion, you aren't required to drink the kool-aid.
It looks like Lightning is already available for download for Thunderbird 2...
I haven't tried it yet - I've been using Sunbird - but the additional features that lightning provides will help Thunderbird on the road to becoming a more complete Microsoft Outlook competitor. If only we could convince someone to write the Exchange competitor on an open database...
You may prefer Mozilla Sunbird if... you prefer your calendar to be separate from your email client you don't currently use Mozilla Thunderbird for your email you don't like adding add-ons [such as extensions or themes] to your applications
You may prefer Lightning if... you send or receive meeting invitations via email you already use Mozilla Thunderbird for email you customize your applications with add-ons [such as extensions or themes] You can follow the Mozilla Calendar Weblog here >> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/
OK. Let's use your math and apply it to the city that *I* live in.
Number of "downtown cores"? one. Property price? One block of downtown property? $unknown, as there currently aren't a lot of "blocks" available for sale. Most are already subdivided for development as either commercial or high density housing.
Assuming that you could acquire a complete city block...
Option a: - subdivided into ~40 lots for home development? $500,000.00 - 1,000,000.00++ per lot. (approx. 200 people per city block) - chances of finding a builder / developer to build personal property in the next 18 months? 0% - cost to build 2,000 - 3000 sq. ft. house on said land? $350,000.00 - $600,000.00 - At an entry price of $850,000.00 - 1,600,000.00++, this would result in a mortgage that the average city dweller simply cannot afford. Add to the fact that you are looking at a possession date almost two years in the future... Compare this with current property values in the sub-urbs starting at $400,000.00, with the average home selling for $500,000.00.... You are talking about a delta of $350,000 - $450,000++. That's a lot of gasoline....
Option b: - developed as 4 @ 160 unit condiminium? (approximately 1800 people per city block) - cost to purchase 800 - 1200 sq. ft. condo's on said land? $350,000.00 - $600,000.00++ - chances of finding a builder / developer to build personal property in the next 18 months? 0% A much more reasonable price point (compared with building new houses in the downtown core).
Number of people that would potentially live in one city block in this city? Assumptions: 1. The average home houses more people than the average condominium. 2. 1 in 3 people earn some form of income.
Housing community - estimated 66.6* workers per city block. High density condo's - estimated 600 workers per city block.
Number of people in my city? 1,000,000 Number of city blocks that would need to be within 5 minutes of the downtown core? - If everyone lived in condo's - 1,666.6* - If everyone lived in a house - 15000 So, uh, where would you put the business that everyone needs to work for?
I will warrant that you could shoehorn more people into the available space. You could remove the greenspaces, parks, pathways, walkways, etc. You could outlaw pets (difficult to own a large dog in an apartment style condominium), outlaw driving, etc.
So, if we trade in the cars that we chose, the homes that we have built, our large grassy backyards, our two car garages, that we worked hard for - that we made unique - that we made ours, we will be offered the chance to save a few bucks on gasoline while living in a shoebox that is identical to every other shoebox in the surrounding 15000 blocks.
Granted, there are a lot of people who are buying them simply because they are bigger. Granted, there are a lot of people who are buying them as a status symbol.
But, there are some people up here in the frozen North(tm) who buy them for the extra traction. I've lived in half of our provinces. Each has a good argument for 4wd.
Sure, they may only use 4wd in the cities for 4 weeks out of the year, or in the country 4 months out of the year, but they feel that it is worth their while for the safety that it provides.
the Firefly franchise already has an extensive and very very loyal following, and I don't see this fading so quickly. Flares man, Buy them up, they'll never go out of fashion. And they go great with your mullet. Disco is here to stay! That Kevin Costner is one of the world's greatest actors. I wonder what he'll do next? This Pokemon game is the best thing since the Rubik's cube! Well, I don't agree with "flares", "mullet" or "disco", but...
Kevin Costner... World's greatest actor? I dunno about that. But, we *will* always wonder what he'll do next. It's not always good, but it's almost always BIG.
As for Pokemon - I believe that it is still big. You are talking about a phenomenon that captures the minds of kids - not teens or adults. I've never played it, but I've got a couple of nieces that talk about it [seemingly nonstop...].
Inversely, you can always tell people who read alot, but don't consult the dictionary for pronounciation much. They occasionally mis-pronounce words that they may have read a hundred times - words like "eviscerate" and "apostle". Just an observation - not a criticism.
Thanks for drawing attention to my inability to avoid insulting someone while trying to set them at ease. Thanks, also, for implying that, by acknowledging that I am an insensitive clod, and being aware that I have a problem, and taking steps towards resolving that problem, I am somehow more of an insensitive clod than a non-self-confessed, non-help-seeking, run-of-the-mill insensitive clod, you insensitive clod.
Don't worry, I'm selling maps to the solution of that for those that couldn't follow;)
See, and now I don't think that I'll be able to watch that M&M's commercial again - you know the one - they're playing strip poker with a couple of young ladies, Peanut loses and then blushes because he doesn't want to show his peanut...
See, there's an interesting thing that people seem to fail to realize.
There's nothing preventing you (or any industry / company / entity) from using.xxx as your TLD. Just point to your own "root" servers.
If you, as a content provider, wish to allow people access to a TLD that doesn't exist, you need only write a simple application that points to a different set of root servers. Your new list would likely include the "standard" root servers *after* your set of root servers had been checked.
It's not like this is rocket science. You want to d/l pr0n from the.xxx website? Visit xxxroot and download our handy dandy little plugin.
This is one thing about this sort of argument that has always baffled me. If the rules won't change to support your business, change your business to circumvent the rules.
In an effort to clarify and prevent flames / accusations, I feel that it is important to share the assumptions that I've used to make the preceding comment: 1. Middle aged is somewhere between 40 and 50. 2. Middle class is somewhere between "no longer living in poverty" and "not yet owning a second house" 3. White is referring to the fact that my skin's pigmentation is closely related to "Casper" due to an inate fear of the yellow light in the big room with the blue ceiling. 4. I am an insensitive clod.
Of course, back then we had control over markets, imposed trade barriers, and the population had significant union representation. We also actually manufactured things, as opposed to today. Conservatives who want to go back to the 50's conveniently forget these facts. hmmm....
imposed trade barriers Trade barriers, sanctions, taxes, levies, duty, etc. These are all aspects that lead to the great depression. As each country felt the need to "protect their markets", they increased trade sanctions to such an extent that people couldn't use money to buy necessities. The stock market crash was merely another symptom of this much greater problem.
significant union representation While I will not argue about the benefits that unions brought to the average worker 50+ years ago, they provide little real value to the workforce today. Safety issues that were brought to the forefront by unions have been addressed by legislation. For this reason alone, unions in general were a good thing. As soon as you rely on a union to provide raises based on tenure rather than performance, you lose my respect.
actually manufactured things Interestingly enough, quality control and unions have contributed as much to the "off-shoring" of industry as any other factor.
Every generation will look back and marvel at how much better things once were. I am certain that as I get older I'll look back at a decade and comment on how much better things were. Back in the 90's when a retail person could own a home. Back in the 80's when a retail person could own a home. when a retail person could own a home. Well, here we are in 2007...
In the city that I live, a retail person could *not* purchase a home today. Interestingly enough, it is a result of the influx of people more interested in living in the larger centres than in the rural communities. The cost of the home isn't as important as the *promise* of a better life. Interesting that people will sell their home - complete with picket fence - for the opportunity to live in a rental unit in the big city. They fail to realize that $20/hour in the city is equivalent to $5/hour in Nowhereville.
But, that's progress for you. It's just another word for change in a different direction.
Sorry - was trying to be casual. What was I thinking? I have some friends in South Eastern Asia that I chat with from time to time. They quite often type "of coz'" rather than "of course". I was using the expression to refer to an attribute being included as a matter of course.
However, if you'd rather the ballot include a listing of the candidates cousins, far be it from me to stand in the way of progress:)
1. Create software for electronic voting. Use pictures of candidates (and their names, of coz'). 2. Add a printing plugin that spits out a little chit with the picture of the candidate that the voter selected, as well as a bar code that includes the name of the candidate. 3. Place chit in voting box for validation if required - used in case recounts are requested. 4. Profit!!!
I chose to comment on capitalism, rather than focus on organized crime. I do regret not including enough information in my original post to prevent the remainder of this thread.
Slashdot Mirror
Hmmm...
The Venezuelan government buys 15 meter long airships for surveillance.
The city of Caracas has the "worlds worst figures for gun death".
So, taking a bit of a leap [jump with me if you wish]... The government of Venezuela is providing expensive 15 meter long floating targets for the people of Caracas to shoot at instead of shooting at each other...
You know, it just might be crazy enough to work...
I expect you to die, Mr. Bond.
I did not say replacement. I said competitor.
I also indicated that there are industries that do not use a Windows box as their primary computer, but instead use alternate devices. Rather than requiring an additional device simply for calendar and e-mail, they can perform their business requirements on the same device that they perform their engineering/art/medical/etc. duties with.
Now, rather than forcing everyone in your organization to "standardize" on one application for windows e-mail / calendar on the Windows platform, and an alternate application on Solaris and yet a different on Red Hat, your IT department can offer up the "Mozilla" set for a "standard" interface amongst all platforms.
At my previous worksite, there were 1600 Windows devices, and 800 UNIX devices - not unusual in Oil & Gas. Of those 1600 Windows devices, 800 were used strictly for e-mail and calendar access by the 800 UNIX users, as there wasn't a single stable product that could work on both sides of this OS fence. This environment is IDEAL for the Thunderbird / Lightning product.
At my current worksite, there are considerably more Windows devices, and considerably fewer UNIX devices. They do not use Exchange / Outlook, but instead prefer to use Lotus Notes. This, too, results in a seperate e-mail solution for the UNIX users. This environment is not ideal for the Thunderbird / Lightning product, as they use Notes for their documentation engine.
No product will work best for everyone in every situation. But ranting about how Outlook is the only solution for everyone all of the time is ludicrous.
I stand corrected. I must confess to using a *slightly* older version of "Outlook" on the Mac - circa 2003.
I'll say what has been implied thus far, but you seem to fail to grasp.
This product does not have the same feature set that Outlook provides. With the addition of Lightning (which admittedly, is still in pre-release form), it offers the additional feature of calendar management that has been lacking in Thunderbird to date.
However, there is currently *no* other product that operates on a plethora of platforms and operating systems that offers a consistant feature set and user interface. In this regard, Thunderbird wins - hands down.
If you can show me Outlook running on 2 non-Microsoft operating systems, providing the same array of features that Outlook currently provides for Windows, I will concede.
Interestingly enough, had this been a discussion about a car model - a comment about a 2-seat sports car being a competitor to a Corvette say - it would not carry the assumption that the product was available for sale in the US.
All things being equal, your experiences with a US market GM product would be different than your experience with a Japanese market Mazda product. There are many differences - inline-4 vs. v8, left hand drive vs. right, guages in English vs. Japanese - but ultimately they provide the same basic functionality.
Having said that, in this case Thunderbird *does* have the ability to compete with Outlook on the Windows front whereas Outlook does NOT have the ability to compete with Thunderbird on any of the other operating systems. Outlook will not run on openVMS, Solaris, etc.
Now, I'll address a few things in your response... Do you know how many of those I care about at work? Exactly none. And neither does pretty much anyone else in the target market for this product. Apparently you believe that there is room for exactly one collaboration tool in the universe. You seem to be oblivious to the market that exists outside the Windows space. Exchange integration isn't an option for people who regularly use MacOS*, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, linux, OS/2, etc. My doctor uses a Macintosh computers in his office, I have an Ultra 80 at my desk, and support engineers running Blade's at theirs. My coworker uses HP-UX primarily, and he has clients that only have openVMS running on DEC Alphas. Are we not in the target market for this product? You, as a Windows user, have a product available to you that easily facilitates collaboration. You are *not* the target market for this product.
[note: I am aware that there is an Outlook client for MacOS, but it's functionality is quite limited] What I do care about is how well it integrates with Exchange Server I, too, wish that there was a panacea to allow this product set to interact with Exchnage server without modification. But, you are correct. There is nothing that indicates integration with Exchange. There are plugins to allow access to web-based mail servers, it will connect to Exchange via smtp or pop, but does no callendar integration.
...a mistaken belief that users care more about philosophy than functionality... How is a comment like this any different from the "Microsoft at all costs" mantra? Ultimately there is a market that does not believe that a Microsoft product suits thier needs.In *this* religion, you aren't required to drink the kool-aid.
I haven't tried it yet - I've been using Sunbird - but the additional features that lightning provides will help Thunderbird on the road to becoming a more complete Microsoft Outlook competitor. If only we could convince someone to write the Exchange competitor on an open database...
From the Sunbird / Lightning page http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/lightnin
You may prefer Mozilla Sunbird if...
you prefer your calendar to be separate from your email client
you don't currently use Mozilla Thunderbird for your email
you don't like adding add-ons [such as extensions or themes] to your applications
You may prefer Lightning if...
you send or receive meeting invitations via email
you already use Mozilla Thunderbird for email
you customize your applications with add-ons [such as extensions or themes] You can follow the Mozilla Calendar Weblog here >> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/
OK. Let's use your math and apply it to the city that *I* live in.
Number of "downtown cores"? one.
Property price? One block of downtown property? $unknown, as there currently aren't a lot of "blocks" available for sale. Most are already subdivided for development as either commercial or high density housing.
Assuming that you could acquire a complete city block...
Option a:
- subdivided into ~40 lots for home development? $500,000.00 - 1,000,000.00++ per lot. (approx. 200 people per city block)
- chances of finding a builder / developer to build personal property in the next 18 months? 0%
- cost to build 2,000 - 3000 sq. ft. house on said land? $350,000.00 - $600,000.00
- At an entry price of $850,000.00 - 1,600,000.00++, this would result in a mortgage that the average city dweller simply cannot afford. Add to the fact that you are looking at a possession date almost two years in the future...
Compare this with current property values in the sub-urbs starting at $400,000.00, with the average home selling for $500,000.00.... You are talking about a delta of $350,000 - $450,000++. That's a lot of gasoline....
Option b:
- developed as 4 @ 160 unit condiminium? (approximately 1800 people per city block)
- cost to purchase 800 - 1200 sq. ft. condo's on said land? $350,000.00 - $600,000.00++
- chances of finding a builder / developer to build personal property in the next 18 months? 0%
A much more reasonable price point (compared with building new houses in the downtown core).
Number of people that would potentially live in one city block in this city?
Assumptions:
1. The average home houses more people than the average condominium.
2. 1 in 3 people earn some form of income.
Housing community - estimated 66.6* workers per city block.
High density condo's - estimated 600 workers per city block.
Number of people in my city? 1,000,000
Number of city blocks that would need to be within 5 minutes of the downtown core?
- If everyone lived in condo's - 1,666.6*
- If everyone lived in a house - 15000
So, uh, where would you put the business that everyone needs to work for?
I will warrant that you could shoehorn more people into the available space. You could remove the greenspaces, parks, pathways, walkways, etc. You could outlaw pets (difficult to own a large dog in an apartment style condominium), outlaw driving, etc.
So, if we trade in the cars that we chose, the homes that we have built, our large grassy backyards, our two car garages, that we worked hard for - that we made unique - that we made ours, we will be offered the chance to save a few bucks on gasoline while living in a shoebox that is identical to every other shoebox in the surrounding 15000 blocks.
Would you want to live in this city then?
Granted, there are a lot of people who are buying them simply because they are bigger.
Granted, there are a lot of people who are buying them as a status symbol.
But, there are some people up here in the frozen North(tm) who buy them for the extra traction. I've lived in half of our provinces. Each has a good argument for 4wd.
Sure, they may only use 4wd in the cities for 4 weeks out of the year, or in the country 4 months out of the year, but they feel that it is worth their while for the safety that it provides.
*disclaimer* I do not own a 4wd vehicle
Flares man, Buy them up, they'll never go out of fashion. And they go great with your mullet.
Disco is here to stay!
That Kevin Costner is one of the world's greatest actors. I wonder what he'll do next?
This Pokemon game is the best thing since the Rubik's cube! Well, I don't agree with "flares", "mullet" or "disco", but...
Kevin Costner... World's greatest actor? I dunno about that. But, we *will* always wonder what he'll do next. It's not always good, but it's almost always BIG.
As for Pokemon - I believe that it is still big. You are talking about a phenomenon that captures the minds of kids - not teens or adults. I've never played it, but I've got a couple of nieces that talk about it [seemingly nonstop...].
Inversely, you can always tell people who read alot, but don't consult the dictionary for pronounciation much. They occasionally mis-pronounce words that they may have read a hundred times - words like "eviscerate" and "apostle". Just an observation - not a criticism.
Gah!
Thanks for drawing attention to my inability to avoid insulting someone while trying to set them at ease. Thanks, also, for implying that, by acknowledging that I am an insensitive clod, and being aware that I have a problem, and taking steps towards resolving that problem, I am somehow more of an insensitive clod than a non-self-confessed, non-help-seeking, run-of-the-mill insensitive clod, you insensitive clod.
;)
Don't worry, I'm selling maps to the solution of that for those that couldn't follow
See, and now I don't think that I'll be able to watch that M&M's commercial again - you know the one - they're playing strip poker with a couple of young ladies, Peanut loses and then blushes because he doesn't want to show his peanut...
See, there's an interesting thing that people seem to fail to realize.
.xxx as your TLD. Just point to your own "root" servers.
.xxx website? Visit xxxroot and download our handy dandy little plugin.
There's nothing preventing you (or any industry / company / entity) from using
If you, as a content provider, wish to allow people access to a TLD that doesn't exist, you need only write a simple application that points to a different set of root servers. Your new list would likely include the "standard" root servers *after* your set of root servers had been checked.
It's not like this is rocket science. You want to d/l pr0n from the
This is one thing about this sort of argument that has always baffled me. If the rules won't change to support your business, change your business to circumvent the rules.
YMMV
In an effort to clarify and prevent flames / accusations, I feel that it is important to share the assumptions that I've used to make the preceding comment:
1. Middle aged is somewhere between 40 and 50.
2. Middle class is somewhere between "no longer living in poverty" and "not yet owning a second house"
3. White is referring to the fact that my skin's pigmentation is closely related to "Casper" due to an inate fear of the yellow light in the big room with the blue ceiling.
4. I am an insensitive clod.
I'm an approaching middle-aged middle-class white man, you insensitive clod! ;)
Every generation will look back and marvel at how much better things once were. I am certain that as I get older I'll look back at a decade and comment on how much better things were. Back in the 90's when a retail person could own a home. Back in the 80's when a retail person could own a home. when a retail person could own a home. Well, here we are in 2007...
In the city that I live, a retail person could *not* purchase a home today. Interestingly enough, it is a result of the influx of people more interested in living in the larger centres than in the rural communities. The cost of the home isn't as important as the *promise* of a better life. Interesting that people will sell their home - complete with picket fence - for the opportunity to live in a rental unit in the big city. They fail to realize that $20/hour in the city is equivalent to $5/hour in Nowhereville.
But, that's progress for you. It's just another word for change in a different direction.
Aha! I've found a business partner to help me to compete against the evil empire!
Sorry - was trying to be casual. What was I thinking?
:)
I have some friends in South Eastern Asia that I chat with from time to time. They quite often type "of coz'" rather than "of course". I was using the expression to refer to an attribute being included as a matter of course.
However, if you'd rather the ballot include a listing of the candidates cousins, far be it from me to stand in the way of progress
In retrospect, perhaps Step 4 should have said "Govern!" and Step 5 should have been "Profit!!!"
Here's a complete solution:
1. Create software for electronic voting. Use pictures of candidates (and their names, of coz').
2. Add a printing plugin that spits out a little chit with the picture of the candidate that the voter selected, as well as a bar code that includes the name of the candidate.
3. Place chit in voting box for validation if required - used in case recounts are requested.
4. Profit!!!
I chose to comment on capitalism, rather than focus on organized crime. I do regret not including enough information in my original post to prevent the remainder of this thread.