Siberia - The Next Silicon Valley?

eldavojohn writes "CNN Money is running a story about Siberia's rising tech industry.The movement towards tech is centered in Akademgorodok (Academy Town), with a 15 percent annual increase in the number of firms. Even though the area industry's worth is still fledgling compared to other areas, the growth cannot be ignored. 'President Vladimir Putin has also taken note, backing the construction of a $650 million technology business district with $100 million in state funding for infrastructure. "We simply mustn't waste this chance," Putin declared in Akademgorodok following a 2005 trip to tech-savvy India, "especially as other countries have achieved success without such a strong starting position." High tech is the sort of thing that the Kremlin, realizing that Russia's natural resources can't last forever, would like to develop.'"

Comments

The Russian Hacker

[eldavojohn]

It's long been known that Russia, the Ukraine, Poland, etc. contain a vast wealth of programming talent. Look at the rankings of the world wide programming contests. Unfortunately, with their dismal economies, these talents are often used for ill rather than good. I, myself, have two anecdotal stories of my friend's user accounts being hacked by unknown parties in the Ukraine. All in the name of 50 USD.

Why?

Surely, I reasoned, with the amount of time they took to set up that scam and avoid authorities, they could have gotten a job like I have and done something good for even more cash--but, that's my naïve American attitude for you. The job market probably doesn't exist there where they live.

Nothing would make me happier than to see these people given an opportunity to move somewhere close to make money, help their economy, establish an industry/infrastructure for future generations & to get these programmers off the street and into a job ... however, that could just be my naïve American attitude again.

On an offtopic note, I used to "cool" my computers in Minnesota by placing them next to the window during the winters, I'm certain you could cut down cooling costs in Siberia using similar strategies.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[jimstapleton]

or cut down on heating bills by just making sure the computers have good fans... Well not necessarily heating bills, but when computer power and heating combine, the overall bill could be lower.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[AKAImBatman]

Look at the rankings of the world wide programming contests.

According to your link, we should be hiring the Polish. The Russians did better than the US's 4 out of 48, but they still didn't take any sort of lion's share at 8 out of 48. And in any case, TopCoder is not a useful metric of anything except for, perhaps, cowboy coding. Many of the key skills required to launch a successful technology business are not measured by simplisitic coding riddles.

On an offtopic note, I used to "cool" my computers in Minnesota by placing them next to the window during the winters, I'm certain you could cut down cooling costs in Siberia using similar strategies.

I hope you realize that Siberia is not a frozen wasteland. Siberia covers such an area (where you'll find many of the Chukcha tribes), but it also covers more temperate climates. Not to mention that these programmers wouldn't be a bunch of smart guys packed into a cold little shack. They'll probably be in a building not much different than those found here in America. Which means that they'll have the same cooling and heating problems as we do. (We have horribly cold Chicago winters, I can assure you that they help cool our servers very little.)

Surely, I reasoned, with the amount of time they took to set up that scam and avoid authorities, they could have gotten a job like I have and done something good for even more cash--but, that's my naïve American attitude for you.

The truth is that most of those who have the willpower to do something "good" for even more cash, also have the will to go where the dollars are. Which means that many of them immigrate to other countries rather than hang around in Russia. With Moscow's economy booming, that may eventually change. But for now, Russia has a difficult time holding on to their talent. That talent that they do hold onto may feel their talents underappreciated in the nascent Russian tech economy.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[duffbeer703]

The top coder stuff is showing you that the Russians are much better at math.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

actually doing well in programming contests is probably correlated with still poor market conditions. in the US the best and brightest students drop don't waste their time in universities but start their own companies.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Surely, I reasoned, with the amount of time they took to set up that scam and avoid authorities, they could have gotten a job like I have and done something good for even more cash--but, that's my naïve American attitude for you. The job market probably doesn't exist there where they live.

Good jobs exist in Ukraine, but many of the people there have a "live for today, screw tomorrow" mindset, which is why they do things like this. They have learned that tomorrow may never come, so you better get what you can ASAP. This is why they do things like this.

Ukrainians are good people, but like the rest of the ex-USSR (the Baltic States may be an exception), they have this weird sense of entitlement that you can't really understand unless you go there. They think that because somebody in the West has more money than them that they have a right to steal some of that money to improve their own lives. They have very unrealistic expectations for their society. As Jim Morrison sang once "We want the world and we want it now!" They expect to have the same standard of living as the Western EU now instead of having a more realistic goal of trying to encourage foreign investment and trying within 10 years to get to where, say, Poland is today. Most of the Ukrainian citizens want to be where the UK is today and it's just not realistic. This lack of realistic expectations and sense of entitlement leads to massive disappointment with reality and a willingness to scam and steal on the internet to try to get closer to where they perceive they should be.

Good jobs do exist, especially in Kiev, but millionaires and rich foreigners have ruined the Kiev property market, which is another problem that the Ukrainian government is going to have to deal with down the road. Imagine making, say, $800 US a month and living in a city where all around you every day are new buildings with condos that cost $500,000 US and you have an idea of the kind of insane economic disparity that goes on. Similar craziness can be found in Russia too and I wouldn't be surprised if Belarus had some of it as well.

Not to start another endless thread, but it's better now to say "Ukraine" in English and not "the Ukraine". It's a long story, but basically it was considered OK to use "the" when it was part of the USSR but not now that it's an independent country. Do a search for a Ukrainian embassy in your favorite English speaking country and you'll see that at their website they don't use "the" in the country name. It's just Ukraine. Those who argue passionately for the use of "the" are either speakers of some language other than Russian, Ukrainian and English (ie. the rules are different for French) or a native of the region who learned English grammar using an old Soviet era grammar book where it was argued that the use of "the" was correct.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[arivanov]

I hope you realize that Siberia is not a frozen wasteland...but it also covers more temperate climates....

Most of Siberia is defined in climate terms as temperate continental. In fact the "most continental" temperate on the face of the earth. Which means that it can get above 30C in mid summer in the same place where you have -30C in mid-winter. So you still need good airconditioning for any high tech industry facility.

As far as talent, I bet that there is a considerable talent left in Russia for any antrepeneur which is capable of herding a pack of mad cats (the best comparison which comes to mind).

Based on my (now very out of date) recollections of Russian schools they put considerably lower emphasis on the social side of education compared to US and UK. They do not force education on children as a "social activity", in fact you must do most of your work on your own. As a result their educational system tends to naturally favour people who are capable of achieving a lot on their own, but will not fit in well as a standardised Dilbertian "team player". Add to that the fact that their understanding of what constitutes a team player is also very different so when a westerner tells them that (thinking of a Dilbert style player) they get seriously insulted. And so on. And so on.

Overall, this put a relatively high barrier in front of their highest academic achievers in technology related fields and there are quite likely to be a lot of them left there. Add to that the grey and shadow economy of all sorts and all in all there is likely to be a viable job market for someone brave enough to tap into it.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Cyberax]

When I first visited Novosibirsk it was about -40C (-40F for the Americans :) ). Not that I was surprised - I live in Russia, but in area with a little bit more mild climate (we usually have only a few days per year with -30C, generally it's about -15C in winter).

But still, it may be a little bit extreme for the rest of the world. Besides, Novosibirsk is not very close to the European countries or the USA.

As for Technoparks (Tech parks), Putin is going to do a right thing (IMHO). Government is funding development of infrastructure and office buildings. So IT companies will have a good infrastructure and will be able to work without worrying about Internet connectivity and office space.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Das Modell]

I'm confused. Why was this modded troll?

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Johnny Mnemonic]

They'll probably be in a building not much different than those found here in America. Which means that they'll have the same cooling and heating problems as we do. (We have horribly cold Chicago winters, I can assure you that they help cool our servers very little.)

Well, that might be due to poor design. I read an article about a data center built in Minneapolis, which can also be terribly cold. The Data Center made use of "environmental cooling" ie sucking in cold outside air. The DC operator bragged that he didn't need to run his chillers at all for 3 1/2 months of the year; that he used the excess heat to warm the offices, and if those got too warm he warmed the loading dock. In fact, often the incoming air was too cold so it had to be prewarmed first (also from the excess temp of the servers themselves). You might consider making better use of the natural cooling temps to help with your DC, it's the latest thing in DC design.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if DCs in Siberia were going to attempt to do this also, provided that Siberia is truly that cold.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[CRCulver]

They think that because somebody in the West has more money than them that they have a right to steal some of that money to improve their own lives.

And you apparently think you have a right to make blanket statements about an entire country. I for one would never say "Americans think..." or "Brazilians think..." without heavy qualification and citation.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

>>
Surely, I reasoned, with the amount of time they took to set up that scam and avoid authorities, they could have gotten a job like I have and done something good for even more cash--but, that's my naïve American attitude for you.
---
Yes.

>>The job market probably doesn't exist there where they live.
--
Exactly!

>>Nothing would make me happier than to see these people given an opportunity to move somewhere close to make money, help their economy, establish an industry/infrastructure for future generations & to get these programmers off the street and into a job ... however, that could just be my naïve American attitude again.
--
Yes

>>On an offtopic note, I used to "cool" my computers in Minnesota by placing them next to the window during the winters, I'm certain you could cut down cooling costs in Siberia using similar strategies.
--
You forgot to add: "however, that could just be my naïve American attitude again."
They have much better insulation over there.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG! They're over there, over-clocked and underpaid.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Black-Man]

I dunno... quite a few place where I have worked, "cowboy coders" were held in high esteem.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you work for a head-hunter, that fact probably hurts your company. "Cowboy coders" tend to get in the way more often than they pave the way.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[DurendalMac]

On an offtopic note, I used to "cool" my computers in Minnesota by placing them next to the window during the winters, I'm certain you could cut down cooling costs in Siberia using similar strategies. Precisely. Overclockers are flocking to Siberia in droves. I hear they're breaking records with standard air cooling, and as an added bonus, there are several weeks out of the year where they don't have to put up with that pesky sun!

Re:The Russian Hacker

[doom]

It's long been known that Russia [wired.com], the Ukraine [slashdot.org], Poland, etc. contain a vast wealth of programming talent. Look at the rankings of the world wide programming contests [slashdot.org]. Unfortunately, with their dismal economies, these talents are often used for ill rather than good [slashdot.org]. I, myself, have two anecdotal stories of my friend's user accounts being hacked by unknown parties in the Ukraine. All in the name of 50 USD.
Why?
Surely, I reasoned, with the amount of time they took to set up that scam and avoid authorities, they could have gotten a job like I have and done something good for even more cash--but, that's my naïve American attitude for you. The job market probably doesn't exist there where they live.

Because they automated the process and did it 10,000 times, and your friend is one of the few who noticed the $50 missing, and just like everyone else who noticed, he figured it wasn't a big enough problem to hassle with going after someone in the Ukraine.

And the bank knows all about it, but they've forgotten to notify the 9997 people who didn't notice. Oops.

But don't mind me, some people think I'm paranoid.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[PopeRatzo]

in the US the best and brightest students drop don't waste their time in universities but start their own companies.

And end up with the writing skills of a 9th grader. If you have to be convinced that a university education is worthwhile, you really need a university education. But that's just my opinion, and I'm in the academic racket myself. Do what you want, but I highly recommend using the few years it takes to get a graduate degree to get to know yourself and try things and form some notion about how you want to spend your fleeting years on this planet. There's plenty of time to start your own company, and who knows, but maybe reading some French philosophers and studying some anthropology or astronomy or fluid dynamics might help you out a bit. And if not, you might get laid a few times before you settle down. The brief period our culture allows our young people to study and grow is purely a gift. Enjoy it.

And it will make your parents happy, which, you will learn later, is more important than you now know.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[ErikZ]

My writing skills didn't improve from college, it came from posting and trying to make a good impression.

Why do you think people will get an idea of what they want to do in life from college? The only classes that were interesting to me aren't available unless you take a number of prerequisites.

And think of all the times you'd have gotten laid if you had the money to spend on hookers, instead of blowing it on college.

College used to be important because access to people and fields of study were limited. We now live in the [i]information age[/i] where you can become as educated as you wish. And it won't cost you more than time and a good internet connection.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[CodeBuster]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if DCs in Siberia were going to attempt to do this also, provided that Siberia is truly that cold.

I have never been there personally, but by all accounts from Napoleon onwards the Russian winters, and Siberia winters in particular, are bitterly cold.

BTW: to expand on your efficient building design ideas I was just thinking that maybe instead of using all of the heat from the servers to preheat their own cooling air, you could shunt some of that heat into a Sterling Engine instead. It would be inefficient yes, but at least some of the waste heat from the servers combined with the temperature differential from outside could be recovered from the sterling engine and recycled through the system to reduce the external electricity needs somewhat. Maybe, it wouldn't be worth it, but it could be looked into at least.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is pure wishful thinking. Anyone jumps at a chance to escape Akademgorodok and Siberia in general, even if only to move to Moscow/Petersburg. Novosibirsk is not all that it's rumored to be. In fact, it's a quite miserable place.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Cyberax]

No, Novosibirsk is quite OK.

People were escaping to Moscow/SPB because they could have got a much better job there. Not anymore.

For example, I know three MVPs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Most_Valua ble_Professional) who have more than enough money to move to Moscow but choose to stay in Novosibirsk.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[wirelessbuzzers]

The top coder stuff is showing you that the Russians are much better at math. If the International Math Olympiad means anything, Russians are not particularly better at math than Americans. It's the Chinese that are much better at math. And, given their population, the Romanians.

Re:The Russian Hacker

[Reservoir Penguin]

You're right and it's rarely even below 25 here. -40 C is definitely not a normal temperature, we are in SOUTH western Siberia after all!

Re:The Russian Hacker

[PopeRatzo]

And think of all the times you'd have gotten laid if you had the money to spend on hookers, instead of blowing it on college

if you'd rather be with a hooker than a sophomore at the University of Minnesota, be my guest.

Academgorodiok

[Magada]

Now, if only we could convince that fool Zakharov to rush the Ascent project.

Re:Academgorodiok

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh c'mon, it's not like you have the energy credits to do it ANYWAY.

Re:Academgorodiok

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm hoping they getting cracking on that Space Elevator soon, myself.

In one minute, earth. In the next, heaven.
-Academician Prokhor Zakharov, For I Have Tasted the Fruit

Re:Academgorodiok

[dotoole]

And if you do - why the hell hasn't someone stolen it all with probe teams?

Sidenote: confirmation word for this post was 'covert' :)

Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

To anyone who thinks that Silicon Valley is going to show up elsewhere in the world, I highly recommend reading the following essay by Paul Graham:

Why Startups Condense in America

Among his points, there is one in particular that (I think) gets overlooked the most. His seventh point, "America Is Not Too Fussy" is really a key issue. Like it or not, many Amercian startups bend the rules to find the most expedient solution to getting into business. 95% of the time, this bending of the rules is harmless, and actually benefits society. However, many countries would simply enforce their regulations to the point where that startup would never exist. I find his point to be amazingly enlightening.

Take a gander at his article, then come back to the matter of the Siberian Silicon Valley. Does Siberia have the infrastructure? The desire? The willingness to bend the rules? The lack of a police state? Free and open immigration? Cross pollination of employees between companies?

I think you'll find that many of these items exist there, but many do not. Silicon Valley is Silicon Valley because it has all of those things in spades. Now if only it didn't cost a bloody fortune to live there. :-P

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[TheMeuge]

Does Siberia have the ... willingness to bend the rules? I don't think you've ever been to Russia.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[The-Bus]

Think of it as a lofty, maybe unreachable goal. Of course you can't replicate Silicon Valley in Siberia. Some random town Wyoming can't decide to become "the next Tokyo" either. There's systemic problems in Russia that no amount of buildings, fiber, and computers will fix. But it's a start.

And they've got land to spare, or so I hear.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

Normally I'd agree with you. In this particular case, though, I think Putin is going to accidently squash it. He's building a brand new technology park to ensure the development of Russia's technology. Which means that no one is going to be running an independent operation out of there garage. (Nevermind that garages are exceptionally rare in Russia.) Thus there's no real opportunity for the inmates to run the asylum. It will be structure from the beginning, with clear goals in mind. The organic and self-organizing nature of Silicon Valley will fail to materialize.

As for enforcement of regulations, Russia is actually very good at it. When you piss off the wrong person or end up on a list of people needing "protection", that is. Russia is growing fast, but there are still plenty of people trying to make their money or gain power off of the backs of others. :-(

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[igny]

From Graham's article, Might there not be an alternate route to innovation that goes through obedience and cooperation instead of individualism?

In my opinion there is. After all the Cold War was a competition between the two different ideologies, and no matter what you might think, Soviet Union did not lack innovation.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[SerpentMage]

I read the article and have to disagree. I would have agreed to the article pre-9-11-2001, but not anymore.

Here is why:

1) Sabarnes Oxly is making it harder for corporations to do business. You can argue about its merits or lack of, but it makes life more complicated.
2) Immigration is becoming truly difficult in the US.
3) Travel within the US is becoming downright ugly due to the overdone security constraints (eg SSSS on your ticket is the kiss of guaranteed delays and pains.)
4) IP and patents are getting in the way of doing business. Lawyers are trigger happy to sue and it is taking its toll.

So while the US has many good attributes it is becoming more and more difficult for people who want to build technology. Just last week I was talking to other speakers at a conference and they were becoming concerned on the over-regulation and over-complication of the technology industry.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[hey!]

Well, I'm not sure what "bending the rules" means. But it helps a great deal if what rules there are are (1) documented, (2) rational and (3) fair.

I'm not a big fan of the complacent notion that America succeeds because God made us better, whether God is and old guy in the sky or some kind of historical determinism that has finally created the perfect human disposition. Instead, I think that we got an early start on the idea of fair, open and impartial laws, which unlocked and attracted vast reserves of untapped human talent in a place with vast untapped reserves of natural resources. As a result there's a lot of capital in this country looking for places to live. The situation is self reinforcing. A fair system makes rational investing possible, an unfair system tilts the table towards bad investments. Either way people with money win, but only under a fair system people with ideas can win too.

The problem with Russia is that its political and legal systems are crap. The same with China. The fact that their systems aren't as horrendously bad as they were twenty years ago has helped, but I do not thing they are capable of sustainable growth. This lack of sustainability has nothing to do with lack of human talent, far from it. But any system whose priority is to keep the powerful in power will eventually find it convient to quash that talent.

As an example, consider the $650M business district. Governments of all stripes do that sort of thing. But what happens when they get it wrong? What happens when it turns out that the district is in the wrong place, or that the businesses that the connected people establish there are threatened by some upstart business run by a couple of guys out of a garage in a Black Sea resort town? What happens is that the friends of the government get their returns guaranteed by the exercise of state power.

That's the problem with crony capitalism. In the long run, don't expect great things out of an economy where a sound investment always starts with courting the right officials.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[avronius]

...there are still plenty of people trying to make their money or gain power off of the backs of others This is, very much, a capitalistic attitude. Almost every business exploits the resources around them. There are those who primarily explot physical resources (Abitibi exploits renewable trees, UK Coal exploits non-renewable coal), and those who primarily exploit intellectual resources (Microsoft exploits software developers, Intel exploits hardware engineers).

The only real difference between what has happened in North America (and Western Europe) and what might happen in Russia? The amount of money that you get paid to be exploited.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Red Flayer]

I'm not a big fan of the complacent notion that America succeeds because God made us better, whether God is and old guy in the sky or some kind of historical determinism that has finally created the perfect human disposition.

Manifest Destiny as a political idea has been dead for a long time.

The problem with Russia is that its political and legal systems are crap. The same with China.

And yet China still manages to have top scientific researchers in every field -- and continues to liberalize both economically and politically. See this.

But any system whose priority is to keep the powerful in power will eventually find it convient to quash that talent.

And how does that differ from the US? Economic power is being concentated in fewer companies and individuals, who will be more easily able to affect government -- we've seen it already. Will the pendulum swing back? I don't know, in the age of mass media, whether we can check the power of the few.

What happens is that the friends of the government get their returns guaranteed by the exercise of state power.

Again, how does this differ from the US? KBR. Diebold. ExxonMobil. Boeing. The ones who write the laws are the lobbyists for the companies that benefit from them.

China, Russia, and the US are approaching each other in terms of politicoeconomic systems. The major difference still remaining is that of IP regulation and protection. If the rigid IP control system is doomed to fail (as many slashdotters believe) then China and Russia are poised to dominate -- since IP is relatively worthless in those countries, and is ignored almost at will. Seems to me that they would have a competitive advantage, in having hugely successful businesses in that climate already.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

This is, very much, a capitalistic attitude.

Only if you consider Al Capone the poster boy for capitalism.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Tablizer]

We have to be careful what is being compared here. Are we comparing the size of "techology cities", or the size of start-up-friendly cities? Most countries are more concerned about jobs than starting the Next Big Thing. Bangalore is almost larger than Silicon Valley already as far as tech jobs. Having more start-ups and having more jobs is not necessarily related.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[CRCulver]

Of course you can't replicate Silicon Valley in Siberia. Some random town Wyoming can't decide to become "the next Tokyo" either.

Dubai has gone from a quiet little emirate to the economic powerhouse of the Middle East in just forty years, with little but visionary leadership and can-do spirit (unlike neighbouring Abu Dhabi, Dubai's oil resources are meagre). I guess the lesson is, it's dangerous to claim a given place could never end up gaining prominence in a few decades' time.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[avronius]

The expression "on the backs of others" is a euphemism for exploitation.

While it is true that Al Capone exploited many people, he did it illegally through coercion, intimidation, manipulation and violence.

Perhaps I should have written:
"The standard practice of trading currency for tasks is a hallmark of capitalism. The difference is all about how much currency you recieve for the task that you perform."

Better?

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

Are we comparing the size of "techology cities", or the size of start-up-friendly cities?

Neither. We're talking about productivity. i.e. The actual output of the area. Replicating the technology output of Silicon Valley (which really encompasses the entire area, including Palo Alto and San Fransisco) is a difficult - if not impossible - feat.

If all we were looking for was size, then IBM would run the world.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Dr. Eggman]

Also, ask does Russia have universities with plenty of Jews. This article has a few quarky statements, but this one:

The case of Germany is a strange one. The Germans invented the modern university, and up till the 1930s theirs were the best in the world. Now they have none that stand out. As I was mulling this over, I found myself thinking: "I can understand why German universities declined in the 1930s, after they excluded Jews. But surely they should have bounced back by now." Then I realized: maybe not. There are few Jews left in Germany and most Jews I know would not want to move there. And if you took any great American university and removed the Jews, you'd have some pretty big gaps. So maybe it would be a lost cause trying to create a silicon valley in Germany, because you couldn't establish the level of university you'd need as a seed. Is just out and out questionable. To think Germany's silicon valley may have been doomed to fail because they do not have good enough universities is one thing. But suggesting that the lack of any one specific identity, like the Jews, has anything to do with the quality of the university is just ludicrous and, in my opinion, borderline racist. If he was trying to make some point of general exclusionary practices in the universities, I think he missed his mark. I cannot comment on his other statement of the German government 'evening out' the universities' quality, however, and I think it would do well to emphasize that point over the other and support it more clearly.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Loke the Dog]

Its funny that he compares to japan when talking about immigration. Japan is one of the most closed countries in the world when it comes to immigration, its a silly example. I really don't see how the USA could be considered anything more than average when it comes to openness for immigrants. Sure, the USA receives a lot of well educated and ambitious immigrants, more so than any other country, but thats because the USA has a reputation of being a good place to make money and "become someone", not the other way around.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

While it is true that Al Capone exploited many people, he did it illegally through coercion, intimidation, manipulation and violence.

Exactly. Now go back and read the paragraph you so obviously misunderstood.

Perhaps I should have written:
"The standard practice of trading currency for tasks is a hallmark of capitalism. The difference is all about how much currency you recieve for the task that you perform."

Better?

Not in the slightest.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[fishbowl]

>But suggesting that the lack of any one specific identity, like the Jews...

Germany did a very thorough job of *killing* its doctors, teachers, artists and scientists, a generation ago,
and will be paying the price for centuries to come.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Point 4 is just bizzare. To find out what European Universities are good he asks a bunch of American Professors? As the saying goes DUH! I'd name 4 more Univerisites with ultra strong Computing departments at the drop of a hat in Britain alone - Edinburgh: with it's impressive legacy of AI research, Glasgow: With it's (now gutted) OS research and current world class IR research group. Manchester and Univeristy College London. And this is excluding all the little things like Durhams Centre of Software Maintenance research and the like.

It's as stupid a metric ask asking a bunch of european reasearchers what American Universities they respect and going "Ah-ha" when they say "M.I.T, ummmmmmmm".

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[fishbowl]

>The expression "on the backs of others" is a euphemism for exploitation.

Okay, then; "On the shoulders of giants."

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[hey!]

Manifest Destiny as a political idea has been dead for a long time.

But the attitudes behind it live on.

Again, how does this differ from the US? KBR. Diebold. ExxonMobil. Boeing.

Because the ideology that privatizing public functions automatically make them more efficient is hogwash. The government doesn't buy services like military logistical support from a preexisting market that has already established efficient equillibrium prices. So when it privatizes such a function it has to turn to a small group of vendors capable of meeting government specifications and complying with (and sometimes exploiting) its bidding and accounting procedures. The reason the private sector is, on average, more efficient than the public sector isn't that the private sector is populated with virtuous geniuses. It's because in markets with many suppliers and customers and low barriers to entry, inefficient businesses have countless competitors ready to underbid them.

In a market with only one customer, and with major barriers to entry, waste is actually more likely than if those services were provided by the government itself.

And yet China still manages to have top scientific researchers in every field -- and continues to liberalize both economically and politically.

If you read my original post, I never said the problem with China is that it didn't have talent. Nor that they have failed to liberalize. But the bottom line is that the government remains above reproach or accountability. Under the current, unsustainable growth, everybody wins practically no matter what happens. What I'm saying is an unaccountable government can be counted on to make selfish choices when decisions get hard.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[superpulpsicle]

It's mind boggling that Silicon Valley hasn't been expanded to Nevada, Arizona and other neighboring states. There is so much untapped resources in those states alone.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Dr. Eggman]

I am fully willing to accept that removing any segment of the population from their potential as such professionals will do this and would have agreed if this was what he was asserting. However, from his wording, he specifically indicates that the startups didn't show up because the university's quality was not high enough to provide fertile ground for seeding them. His apparent cause for the lack of quality is because of government intervention and a 'lack of Jews,' and it is this specific argument I disagree with, most specifically the second assertion. Where it that he said the exclusion of the Jews, or any other group their government repressed, is the cause of fewer startups then I would be inclined to agree. However, as it is stated, he instead ties them to the quality of the universities and from that to the startups, which I do not agree to.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[linguizic]

Manifest Destiny as a political idea has been dead for a long time.

Yes manifest destiny as an explicit idea is in fact dead. However we still suffer from the hubris of the implicit idea of American exceptionalism and it takes several forms, the dominant one being that the US is God's chosen country and it is our role to liberate certain middle-eastern and central Asian countries from their evil rulers. If some form of exceptionalism weren't common among the populous, the lead up to the war wouldn't have been so easy.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Red Flayer]

So when it privatizes such a function it has to turn to a small group of vendors capable of meeting government specifications and complying with (and sometimes exploiting) its bidding and accounting procedures.

That is no different from when the US bids out huge contracts -- there is a very limited selection of companies from which to solicit bids. Hence KBR/Halliburton's no-bid contract in Iraq -- apparently there was no other company capable of fulfilling the contract. Or airplane contracts; only two companies in the US are qualified to bid for major contracts.

Business in the US is centralizing; your point about high barriers to entry and few competitors is become *more* common in the US, even as it becomes *less* common in Russia and China.

But the bottom line is that the government remains above reproach or accountability

Which is changing -- government in China is becoming accountable to business (instead of no one) in China, much as government in the US is becoming accountable to business more than individuals.

What I'm saying is an unaccountable government can be counted on to make selfish choices when decisions get hard.

Agreed. But please see my previous point about changing accountability. When you've got a government inextricably involved with big business, then they are in effect one and the same. Yes, there's slightly more ability to change in the US -- but I think you underestimate how much business controls the government in both China and the US, thus making accountability a rather irrelevant point.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[koreaman]

Stop using economic terms inexactly. Total output is called "production". Output per person and per time is called "productivity". It's not clear which one you're talking about, as you gave the definition of "production", said "productivity", and it appears that you're talking about productivity, but I can't be sure.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Dahamma]

Actually, Arizona is basically becoming the customer support and QA departments for Silicon Valley's tech companies.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[koreaman]

I find that the general public (I'm sure for professors this would be even more the case) in Europe has heard of more American universities than the reverse. Most know of M.I.T., Harvard, Stanford, and Yale at least, and probably more. For a professor involved in Computer Science research, the rate would be much higher, as they would be reading research that came out of other universities.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[ReidMaynard]

Im not sure this has any basis in reality other than a quick-blinders-on-snapshot-of-2007.

Look back 100 years (in the US) and you have J.P. Morgans, by anyones standards much worse that the current situation (except perhaps J.P. Morgan's standards).

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Or damn near anywhere else outside of the USA and it's close friends who think like the USA or at least enforce things because the USA asks them to (UK/Australia/etc.)

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Dahamma]

I haven't seen anyone touch on this one:

Free and open immigration?

It can't be overstated how important the immigration of a HUGE pool of talented engineers to the US from China, India, Canada, all over Europe, etc. has been to the growth and success of Silicon Valley. I'd estimate half the engineers I work with were not born in the United States. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why someone would move from their home country to the Bay Area (reasons that oviously very widely based on the individial and the country). But let's face it, very few of those reasons will ever convince anyone to move to Siberia.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[doom]

igny wrote:

From Graham's article, Might there not be an alternate route to innovation that goes through obedience and cooperation instead of individualism?
In my opinion there is. After all the Cold War was a competition between the two different ideologies, and no matter what you might think, Soviet Union did not lack innovation.

Yes, and George Bush has learned a lot from the KGB's example.

Seriously, what kind of innovation are you talking about? Sputnik seemed like a big deal at the time, but in retrospect it looks like a very tiny stunt compared to the panic it induced.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Red Flayer]

But we also had the capability of wholesale change in the political system, which we no longer have. I think the power of mass media separates politics today from politics in the early 20th century, and leaves us without true choice when it comes to electing people who could break the corporate-government stranglehold.

Another reason that we'll never see reform on the scale of what we saw a hundred years ago is that we have the knowledge and power to prevent an economic collaps on the scale of the Great Depression -- and without the impetus for reform, we'll not see reform.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Either way people with money win, but only under a fair system people with ideas can win too.

The question is, is the latter possible without the former?

Based on my experience, most of the time the people with money win more easily, and to a greater extent, and the only way for the people with ideas and skills to win in comparable amounts is to take their initial winnings and continue winning by having the initial capital. Additionally, people with good ideas can lose simply because of barriers of entry.

Capitalism and markets work pretty well...but they only work as long as the participants are on a level playing field. The problem is that with sufficient resources, participants can grow to have major differences in power compared to their competitors. An example likely to be familiar to slashdot readers is, obviously, Microsoft.

Now if we ignore history, and ignore Microsoft's business practices, and just consider the current situation...if a business wishes to buy computer equipment and software for general use, what is the most risk-free investement? Considering installed base, and document compatibility, it's PCs with a Microsoft operating system and office suite. Why? Because that's what almost everyone else uses.

That's perfectly valid reasoning, and you'll hear it often. It isn't particularly bad for the business making the decision. However, it's a total distortion of any reasonable kind of market, since there is only one alternative. The good thing is, there are multiple vendors providing the PCs for such a solution. The bad thing is, Microsoft is alone in providing the operating system and office suite. And the really bad thing is, it isn't because nobody else has bothered to try, but that the barrier of entry is determined by Microsoft itself, and its established market share.

If you think it's completely fair that Microsoft has its current position, consider the following thoughts:

What things should a competitor be able to do in order to be a viable alternative? (And this means something that everyone potentially buying a Microsoft product would consider)

Which of those things are controlled by Microsoft?

Who would be capable of creating such an alternative, and why has such an alternative not yet become reality? Are other people really just too incompetent to compete with Microsoft?

Do you believe that single-vendor control of any area is a good thing?

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[vakuona]

They do seem to be having trouble coping. See BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Porsche, and all the other hi-tech german companies out there. Look at their mass transit systems, their roads. Their infrastructure. Yeah, it's a shame really.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[21mhz]

Sputnik seemed like a big deal at the time, but in retrospect it looks like a very tiny stunt compared to the panic it induced.

The payload may seem tiny and trivial, but the R-7 that put it in orbit was not.
More difficult thing was to provide those spectacular breakthroughs AND quality of life improvements for the ordinary people...

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[bckrispi]

Intel, Motorola, American Express, Honeywell, General Dynamics, Allied Signal, PetsMart, Microchip and Medtronic (to name a few) have very large IT presences in Arizona . We just got a Google campus, and we're home to GoDaddy. Wells Fargo recently moved a lot of IT operations here, as labor is much cheaper here than in San Fransisco. In the mid 90's, there was talk of turning Phoenix into the "Silicon Desert". This idea deflated with the .com bubble, but the IT industry here is strong and growing steadily.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[avronius]

I did not misunderstand your paragraph. I did, however, choose to ignore your insinuation of corruption. I will speak to it now.

As for enforcement of regulations, Russia is actually very good at it. When you piss off the wrong person or end up on a list of people needing "protection", that is. Russia is experiencing organized crime - some of which has close associations to the oligarchy. I do not suggest that this is a good thing. But they are not the only country to have experienced corruption during a period of great change. You can look at the United States, Mexico, China and others present and historical examples.

Sadly, the people that are victims of organized crime don't generally feel that they can trust the police to resolve the problem. The mafia generally lives within the community of those that they terrorize. Calling in police to resolve problems will generally only server to incur more trouble. For Russians, years of living in fear of the authorities has had an additional negative effect. Reputation is very difficult to repair - the Russian police have an uphill battle ahead of them.

What does this mean for development? Russia will need to help itself to dispel the mafia. Until the people realize that allowing organized crime to happen does nothing but encourage the continuation of the activity. Capitalism is continuing to grow in spite of it, but will continue to be stunted until this issue is controlled.

Don't be fooled - there is still organized crime in the United States. There is still organized crime in Canada. People's faith in the justice system helps to keep it a minimum. Constant vigilance is necessary, however, to prevent those with power from becoming as corrupt as those they protect us from.

Having said *all of that*, I still warrant that people will sell their skills for money.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[AKAImBatman]

I did not misunderstand your paragraph. I did, however, choose to ignore your insinuation of corruption.

(raises eyebrow)

You realize that you're effectively admitting that you setup a strawman just to knock it down?

Having said *all of that*, I still warrant that people will sell their skills for money.

Of course they will. The issue is that Russia is not in a position to host a new Silicon Valley, not that people won't do any work. Programmers will get hired, and programmers will earn their living. But the factors that allow for the incredible amount of output seen in SV will not exist for some time to come. (If ever?)

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[avronius]

I chose to comment on capitalism, rather than focus on organized crime. I do regret not including enough information in my original post to prevent the remainder of this thread.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[suitepotato]

That's the problem with crony capitalism. In the long run, don't expect great things out of an economy where a sound investment always starts with courting the right officials.

This is and always has been true, yet equally ignored purposefully whenever a city here in the USA wants "revitalize downtown" and the local press runs articles on the new mom and pop independent businesses and their travails against Wal-Mart and so forth, but mentions not at all the businesses that have always been there, but whose owners will not bow and scrape for the local pols and give them money and free promotion every campaign.

We have crony capitalism right here in the USA. Not as forceful as former police states, but certainly every bit as odious and disturbing and anti-organic.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[MikShapi]

>> But the bottom line is that the government remains above reproach or accountability.

Your underlying assumption that this accountability is not only a good thing, but the lack of it is ultimately destructive.

Now, in spite the fact that history tends to agree with this, it is still not a given. It may be circumstantial.

Truth of the matter is that being an unaccountable government has its pros and its cons, which are in themselves, subject to fluctuation depending on the environment they're imposed in.

Yes, given enough time, someone in power in such a system will eventually exploit it and cause a lot of bad. That much is agreeable. But zooming in from the infinite timescale to a reasonably small one, such a government is much less prone to policy manipulation by
[a] lobbyists
[b] quad-annual administration changes
[c] emotionally over-inflated public opinion
[d] ethical, environmental, conservational and other concerns.
[e] public opinion stemming from downsized commerce stemming from giving the international community the finger (in any matter from IP to nuclear power).
etc.

Some of those have lots of negative reprecussions, but this allows for much more freedom that can be used to do considerable good (much more than the average democracy would be able to do) just as it can do considerable bad. Not as safe, but not as tied down either

Play some civilization if you need further convincing.

This is exactly what allowed China and Singapore to end up where they're today. In some countries (Israel comes to mind) you'll hear a lot of street talk about how people sometimes wish they the country were run like a dictatorship, because all administrations in the last 4 decades (left and right wing) were shackled from doing anything drastic that would actually solve things by media and overall public opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't wish such a system on anyone and am not against free forms of government, quite on the contrary. I'm just pointing out non-free forms of government are not inherently doomed or even less advantageous in any results-driven environment such as an economic race, as long as the results (and not the welfare of their citizens) is the metric you use to measure their achievement.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[munpfazy]

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why someone would move from their home country to the Bay Area (reasons that obviously very widely based on the individual and the country). But let's face it, very few of those reasons will ever convince anyone to move to Siberia.

It's certainly true that, all things being equal, most people would probably choose San Francisco ahead of Novosibirsk.

Given a choice between Sunnyvale and Krasnoyasrk, however, the decision becomes a bit harder. In a contest between Atlanta and Irkutsk, the later wins hands down.

I live in the Bay area and love it, and would certainly have a tough time trying to argue against it. But, I'd happily settle in any of the dozen Siberian cities I've visited long before I'd move to Austin, Phoenix, or any of a number of would-be high tech centers in the US, assuming I could find work which was equally engaging and supported a similar standard of living. And that's even allowing for having been born and raised in the US and speaking hardly any Russian. If I a native of China or one of the former Soviet states, the choice would be even easier.

I'm not convinced geography alone is really such a big disadvantage.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[doom]

Under Bush II, US forces have been behaving like villains in cold war melodramas: they engage in kidnapping and torture, and have a positive contempt of warrants and due process.

Is this trolling? I have trouble imagining why it's even controversial at this point, it's just the truth.

Re:Good Essay on the Matter

[doom]

The payload may seem tiny and trivial, but the R-7 that put it in orbit was not.

Well okay, fair enough. But was it "innovative"? The shock involved was "Oh my god, they can launch big missles just like we can".

NOT Silicon Valley

[zoomcloud]

Having lived for six years in Russia, and five years in Silicon Valley, I feel somewhat qualified to opine. There is a HUGE factor lacking in Siberia: Rule of Law. A hard working programmer or IC designer can expect to have his work (IP) *stolen* within one month of publication or commercialization. Russia does not observe copyright or patent law. Yes, they have a lot of highly intelligent people. I married one. Yes, they have some buildings and power stations. Unfortunately, it's not enough to build a strong information economy. Russia will eventually bring Rule of Law to their economy - out of necessity - but it won't be soon. Ydacha!

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[yada21]

a HUGE factor lacking in Siberia: Rule of Law. Russia does not observe copyright or patent law.

Good for them! This will allow market forces to make their economy more efficient. I guess it's not obvious to most people here, so I'll explain how it works(1).

If a company is using more resources (labor, gold) than it produces it's not adding value to the economy. This is expressed as profit's or in this case, a loss. Faced with theft/piracy firms will adapt their business processes, i.e. keeping staff's children as hostage or hiring former Spetznas trouper's to kill anybody who pinches their wares. On the other hand, if the company pirating (as you'd say - I'd call it 'liberating') their stuff is able to afford better goons, or to bribe off the first companies' heavies, then it is by definition more efficient - if not it wouldn't have the money to do so.

In summary, rule of law is for wussies and communists.

(1) taken from one of my speeches on the subject that I give regularly around the world

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[Larus]

C'mon, this is news reporting. The idea is to drive investors (with too much cash on their hands and no clue on where to throw their money at) to a new hot spot, and at least get paid by some marketing and PR departments. If it happens to come true, the reporters can claim their prescience; if not, it's not their money anyways.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[Silver Sloth]

So when a band of Hell's Angels have beaten you up and are busy gang raping your 12 yr old daughter that's fine, because they're obviously, by definition, 'more efficient'.

The rule of law is for people who want to live with other people. That's why every successful society has one.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[bberens]

So what you're saying is that there's extensive opportunity for businesses based on open source and the 'software as a service' model to flourish to solve various business needs throughout the country and region? What it will not do is allow monolithic conglomerates to take over. Small and medium sized shops should be able to be fairly successful in this environment.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[CRCulver]

The rule of law is for people who want to live with other people. That's why every successful society has one.

Except not every successful society believes in the concept of copyright. It's a recent development, sparked by a few powerful individuals in the West a few hundred years ago, and was missing from e.g. Rome where authors were fine with their poetry recitals being transcribed, copied by slaves, and sold in the marketplace. Empires have lasted thousands of years punishing the guilty and hearing the grievances of the many without the DMCA.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[Silver Sloth]

From Wikipedia

Even during a period of a prospering book trade, during the Roman Empire, the occurrence of piracy was unlikely. This is because books were, typically, copied by expensive and high maintenance literate slaves. Because of this fact, any pirate would have had to pay much the same expense as the original publisher, effectively destroying any economic incentive for piracy. and

The first copyright privilege in England bears date 1518 In short, copyright dates from the invention of the printing press, and, therefore, the ability to copy inexpensively. And, yes, laws will always be made by a few powerful individuals because they are 'more efficient' and have the better goons.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[clovis]

We've heard this BS before. It doesn't work.
Once again an example of theory versus actuality.

We can test your hypothesis through observation. Make a list of countries where "rule of law applies" and a list of those for which the "rule of law" is secondary to rule of fist.

List 1: Wussies: Follows Rule Of Law
United States
Western Europe countries
Australia
Japan

List 2: Strongman: Uses Goons and Bribes to conduct business
African countries
Afghanistan

You can list all the countries in the world and rank them according to how well they ascribe to the importance of the rule of law and rank them according to almost any measure of success and you can see the nearly one-to-one correlation. Get fancy and manova it if you want.

My lists are short of course. They show the extremes and there's a continuum in between.
Countries in list 1 would be chief among what you call the "wussies and Communists".
Also list 1 is a list of the "richest, most powerful, capitalist and gets to have their way in almost everything".
As for list 2, well "market forces" do override "rule of law" there.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

I married one.

Would your real name be Hans?

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[yada21]

So when a band of Hell's Angels have beaten you up and are busy gang raping your 12 yr old daughter

I was referring to theft, both physical and virtual, not crimes against the person. But nice strawman, anyways. In your rediculous example, the rule of law is the problem. Rule of law[yers] (i.e. gun control) is what prevented me from having a gun to shoot them with. Rule of law[yers] (i.e. inflation & other taxes) makes me unable to afford a bodyguard because they've taken my money away to give to the workshy and feckless.

The rule of law is for people who want to live with other people.

The rule of law is taking away my liberty, but giving weak people like you the liberty to tell me what to do.

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[norman619]

SO I guess the Mafia and other organized cime groups should be given free reign by your logic. What a load. LOL!!! You are advocating going back to the ways of the "old west."

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[21mhz]

Yeah, right. The problem is, the most successful societies in this world do not seem to be built by and for strongmen packing shotguns. Did you ever wonder why did American Wild West (essentially that era's version of a budding third world country) cease to exist?

Re:NOT Silicon Valley

[yada21]

Newsflash: correlation does not prove causality.

rank them according to almost any measure of success and you can see the nearly one-to-one correlation. Get fancy and manova it if you want.

LOL @ doing manova on ordinal data.

Banished to Siberia

[mu51c10rd]

Does this make it a good thing to be banished to Siberia? If not, what are they saying about their high-tech workers?

Re:in Soviet Russia

[jimstapleton]

In Soviet Russia, the obvious belatedly states you!

A definite plus

[matt328]

You'd never have any problems cooling server rooms.

Re:A definite plus

[ceeam]

Actually - climate is a factor, IMHO. When you have 10 months of cold weather outside (and 6-8 of them are outright freezing), when you have long winter evenings when there's nothing to do anyway, hacking prospers. In California it may be inverse (going out to heat from conditioned office?), but in good climate it's pretty hard to force yourself staying inside when the weather is so nice.

Re:A definite plus

[Xync]

The joke is good, but keep in mind that "Siberia" is a really big place. Everywhere in Russia east of the Urals qualifies which means 2/3 of the largest country on the planet is Siberia. Since Novosibirsk and Akademgorodok are in the southern part of that huge region, the summer temperatures get "hot" (80+ F), and since Akademgorodok sits next to a large lake, it's muggy to boot. Come July the people are going to want some temperature control (which is hard to come by), not just the servers.

Re:A definite plus

[Anonymous Coward]

More like an indefinite minus ...

Re:A definite plus

[Anonymous Coward]

Or even CPUs on PCs. No more fans! Plus those middle of winter temps would improve performance by making systems superconducting. ;)

Re:A definite plus

[Missing_dc]

Anyone else hearing Zelda music?

Silicon Tundra?

[boristdog]

Or maybe Silicon Taiga?

Either way, they need a catchy name for the press.

Banned

[Frosty Piss]

With such huge amounts of malware and spam comming out of Russia and the former Soviet Union, I'll bet a lot of people (like me) block whole ip ranges from those areas, and are not inclined to change that anytime soon.

Re:Banned

[igny]

This is most likely is a flamebait, but I will respond. While it is true that a lot of malware's code originates from Eastern Europe, most of the botnets are located in USA. And as Internet is highly interconnected Russia does not give rat's ass about you banning IPs from Russia.

Re:Banned

[Frosty Piss]

No, really it wasn't flamebait or a troll. I think many people have done as I have, because it's just a fact. Russia and it's former republics are not the only areas but certainly a major source of spam / malware. My point was that this may be problematic for high tech companies from those parts of the world.

SMAC

[alexhs]

The movement towards tech is centered in Akademgorodok (Academy Town) Huh, are we talking about Russia or Alpha Centauri ? :)

Re:SMAC

[UncleTogie]

Huh, are we talking about Russia or Alpha Centauri ? :)
I dunno... Those MIGHT be mind worms and.... and....
-blink-
Mary had a little lamb,
It's fleece was white as snow.
And everywhere that Mary went,
The lamb was sure to go...
Last transmission from Assassin's Redoubt.

Server Farm

[jshriverWVU]

I've always wondered why someone hasn't put up a huge server farm in places like Alaska or Russia. From my underestanding a big "cost" is in the cooling. If you can recycle outside air to keep the place cooler that's a free resource.

Re:Server Farm

[LWATCDR]

A few reasons.
1. There is very little bandwidth available in Alaska.
2. It costs a lot to build anything in Alaska.

Back in the 30s and 40s a lot of Aluminium smelters where built in the Pacific North West and around Tennessee because of the cheap hydro power. I think you will see more data centers in the US moving to those locations. You have cheap power and nice cold rivers for cooling. Microsoft, Google, and Yahoo are already building some on the Oregon/Washington boarder.

Re:Server Farm

[zlogic]

Actually it may become too cold. -40C (which is a common winter temperature in a lot of regions) makes diesel fuel freeze and materials shrink, which is bad since every material shinks differently and things like heatsinks may break. And low temperature causes water to condense, which is just the same as dropping the server in a bucket. The result? Servers would need to be heated, replacing a cooling bill with a heating one.
Not to mention that 3000+ km of fiber is extremely expensive.

Re:Server Farm

[lawpoop]

"I've always wondered why someone hasn't put up a huge server farm in places like Alaska or Russia. From my underestanding a big "cost" is in the cooling."

Another big "cost" might be connectivity.



Sorry to sound so smarmy, but I just couldn't pass up the opportunity ;)

Re:Server Farm

[khallow]

That doesn't sound too bad actually. After all, the key problem is that you have a huge heat source which is hard to cool. That heat can be used to keep your other materials warm (eg, use some of the waste heat to keep your kerosene for the backup generators warm). With a large enough installation, you'll have heating problems anyway. The extra length of fiber is significant. 3,000km of fibre adds at least a 10 ms delay to signals. Also, you would need to pay someone to live and work in that environment. It's not going to be cheap.

Re:Server Farm

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, shut the fuck up before I kill you.

Sorry to sound so smarmy, but I just couldn't pass up the opportunity

Re:in Soviet Russia

[Mothra the III]

In Soviet Russia, dead horse beats you!

Akademgorodok.com

[webword]

The site is for sale.

So, is Siberia for sale?

At least their datacenters

[Bananatree3]

will get free airconditioning!

Re:Another stab at what appears to be a required j

[robyannetta]

Siberia, huh? To attract bodies, they may want to make it as family friendly as possible, like adding a water park.

Oh wait...

Really?

[p0tat03]

Because, you know, Siberia has that *awesome* weather, system of law, and quality of life that attracts highly skilled and talented people... It would more like be a digital gulag for arrested Russian hackers :P

Re:Really?

[Paulrothrock]

That's funny. The most talented hackers I know can go for days without knowing what the weather is like.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, you know, Siberia has that *awesome* weather, system of law, and quality of life that attracts highly skilled and talented people... It would more like be a digital gulag for arrested Russian hackers :P

Yes, comrade, you do good job, maybe we send you to Siberia. Yes, yes, is very nice.

Xatchoo!

[caluml]

Xatchoo krasiviya Sibirskiya dyevushka. Is that right?

Re:Xatchoo!

[setagllib]

" ". Which you can reduce to " ", and it even specifies the gender. Russian is like that.

Re:Xatchoo!

[setagllib]

Wow, way to completely not support UTF-8, Slashshit.

Transliterated almost phonetically:

"Hochu krasivuyu Siberskuyu devushku". Which you can reduce to "Hochu krasivuyu Siberyaku", and it even specifies the gender. Russian is like that.

Re:Xatchoo!

[Anonymous Coward]

. (Khochu krasivuyu sibirskuyu devushku.)

And, no, you don't.

Re:Xatchoo!

[keeboo]

Xatchoo krasiviya Sibirskiya dyevushka. Is that right?

No, it's not.
You should stick with the local ones until you learn to write that properly.

Yeah, sure

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Given the excellent track record Moscow has exhibited in the past when it comes to use centralized planning to revamp the economy, feed their hungry, expand their ideology and beat America in the cold war, it is a cinch. Definitely the new venture will succeed. All Putin has to do is to order, "Innovate" and the Russians are going to innovate like gangbusters. Well, that is all the feedback Putin is getting for his bold new initiative. How can it ever go wrong?

Re:Yeah, sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful what you say, you might find your laptop overclocked with Polonium.

What's this, the 9th "Next Silicon Valley"?

[trimbo]

We've had "Silicon Prairie" (Champaign, IL). "Silicon Alley" in New York. There's more I'm forgetting right now.

Ultimately all of the talented people who live in places designated to be the next Silicon Valley end up moving to Silicon Valley! We live in a beautiful area and get paid better. Top talent won't stay in Siberia, or Champaign, when they can live in San Francisco.

If there's any "Next Silicon Valley", it would be Los Angeles. Recently it seems that more of the interesting startups are in LA than the Bay Area. Given that so many of the Web 2.0 properties are more about entertainment, this kind of makes sense. And the proximity to Silicon Valley makes it easy for traditional tech investors to go down there.

Re:What's this, the 9th "Next Silicon Valley"?

[atomic777]

Let's not forget Silicon Valley North!

I wouldn't overstate the shift towards LA though. Anything media-related could have a home here, but LA does not attract the same people silicon valley does. Struggling actresses will serve java, but not code it.

I know personally of several web companies that have suffered huge attrition and are unable to fill positions due to a (relative) dearth of talent in SoCal. If these companies were in silicon valley things would be different, I'm sure.

Re:What's this, the 9th "Next Silicon Valley"?

[Grishnakh]

I know personally of several web companies that have suffered huge attrition and are unable to fill positions due to a (relative) dearth of talent in SoCal.

This doesn't surprise me in the least. Who in their right mind would want to move to LA? It's a total dump. It's horribly polluted, filled with gangs and crime, and the cost of living is ridiculous. If you're going to put up with an obnoxiously high CoL, there's two other places in California that are much nicer to live in: San Diego to the south, and Silicon Valley/San Fran to the north. Why pay a lot to live in a dump when you can pay a lot to live someplace nice?

There's just no point in locating a company in LA. If you want lots of talent and are willing to pay high salaries to make up for the high CoL, go to Silicon Valley. If you want to do things cheaper, move out of California to someplace much cheaper. With LA, you get the worst of both worlds.

Video Game Industry...

[__aaclcg7560]

It wouldn't surprise me if the video game industry decided to decamp from Los Angeles to Siberia. With crunch time being crunch time all the time, the work conditions will match a Soviet gulag anytime.

In Soviet Russia, take #472

[Tablizer]

In Soviet Russia, when things are down, you are sent to Siberia.

In USA, when things are down, your job is sent to Siberia.

Re:In Soviet Russia, take #472

[olyar]

Thank you! I was scrolling, and scrolling looking for the "In Soviet Russia" joke.

I mean, this is Slashdot, and this article was just begging for it, and all these folks are having this serious discussion...

People. We're losing our edge around here! First the jokes, then the serious discussion.

Sheesh.

Re:In Soviet Russia, take #472

[Tablizer]

Indeed. Us geeks have our security blankets also.

Super!

[somegeekynick]

Now we can start using superconductors instead of the old semiconductor.

The climate is tough there

[roman_mir]

I was born in Ukraine in the former USSR and lived in Yakutia (North East of Siberia) above the Arctic Circle for 6 years. I can tell you this: it's freaking cold in the winters. Of-course it can be a plus for development of more indoor activities, like computer programming.
--

By the way, here is something from the article that I think can work both ways:
The low cost of rent, services and salaries - roughly one-fifth of Western prices - appeals, but so does a system that builds on the foundations of science to produce programmers. "None of our programmers in Novosibirsk are programmers by education," Intel's Chase says. "They are physicists, chemists, biologists, mathematicians. They are, first of all, scientists. Secondly, they learn how to program as an afterthought." - I am sure there are brilliant scientists among those people, but I cringe every time when I hear about the scientists turned programmers as an afterthought. They will not produce modular easy to maintain and understand code. They just can't. They will solve problems with their code though, I am sure, and probably this fact will substitute for a lot of problems in the code structure itself, but I had to maintain/fix code designed by people like that (HydroOne and Avema contracts are some of the examples,) the code will suck. But so what, the bad code and the cold weather are not the worst problems in Russia. The worst problems are these: the government that is unwilling and incapable to prevent crime against business-people, the government that actually feeds on the crime against business-people.

Do not expect Russia to become a place where the next Silicon Valley will be born within the next three decades at least. The main problem is that there are no investors in their right minds who can expect reasonable return on investment, because their money can disappear in a flash and not even due to a bad business plan or bad coding, but simply because the local mayor's office will tell the owners that the building, where the people are working is not fire safe or water proof or bird shit proof or whatever the story is this week, and the business will be closed until large amounts of money exchange hands. Then the same story will repeat itself the next week. Oh, and the competition or whoever decides that they are competition will not bother trying to build a better product, they will just hurt/kill the business owners one by one if their demands for lots of money are not met, etc.

Re:The climate is tough there

[Anonymous Coward]

This bloke knows what he's talking about.

Re:The climate is tough there

[Animats]

I was born in Ukraine in the former USSR and lived in Yakutia (North East of Siberia) above the Arctic Circle for 6 years. I can tell you this: it's freaking cold in the winters. Of-course it can be a plus for development of more indoor activities, like computer programming.

Like Boston. Some years ago, someone from MIT was recruiting me for the Media Lab, and as we were walking across the campus to the T station, it was sleeting. He commented "There are fewer distractions out here". I got back on the plane to California.

Re:The climate is tough there

[Reservoir Penguin]

This is just not true anymore, I live in Akademgorodok and a well known Moscow based corporation (RosEvroDevelopment) has signed the investment agreement in 2006 and next month will start the construction. Obviously they are hoping to make a good profit on the deal. And you wouldn't believe how much money is being invested in Russia now including by foreign companies. Again, here there are factories, business centers and huge shopping malls sprouting everywhere.

Re:The climate is tough there

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sure there are brilliant scientists among those people, but I cringe every time when I hear about the scientists turned programmers as an afterthought. They will not produce modular easy to maintain and understand code. They just can't. They will solve problems with their code though, I am sure, and probably this fact will substitute for a lot of problems in the code structure itself, but I had to maintain/fix code designed by people like that

Don't assume that the Russian coders are working in isolation!

I work with some of the coders in Russia. Their code is strictly focused on hardcore math that requires years of specialised study. It's wrapped as a COM object, which I then integrate into a well-engineered program.

Quite frankly, I don't think a (trained) Software Eningeer would be as good as they are. (S)he might deliver a prettier interface, but (s)he'd just get lost in the math.

No way!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had experience with three Russian well-established outsourcing teams.
Man, what a crpy code they produce.

Russians are very, extremely lazy, they prefer to have lots of vodka and beer after work rather than to sit down and do proper work. Yes, there are a lot of smart and talented people over there but business ethics nonexists and it takes its heavy tall.
Also, I figured out that the Russian culture teaches people they are the smartest n the world and the can outsmart everybody else. Come on, go and read Russian folklore and fairy-tales.

Disclaimer: I'm Russian myself, this attitude is in my blood as well and that's why I know it first hand.

This is why

[ingo23]

http://ravil.astersoft.net/Prose/RussianProgrammer s.htm

Re:in Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, that one made me laugh

Seems more like the next Berkeley to me

[gravyface]

By Wikipedia's account, Academy Town seems more like the next Berkeley or Stanford to me: strong academic history, plenty of space and amenities, lots of young talent, good facilities, huge natural surroundings (check out arial photo). And it sounds like there was quite a bit of "rule bending" there (better rations, cottages instead of apartment blocks) during the Soviet era. It may not match Silicon Valleys' economic might, but it may surpass it in terms of creativity and innovation.

Oh Great

[Necron69]

Sheesh. And here I have been hinting to my boss that yes, I did take Russian in high school and college, just in case any cool business trip opportunities come up. I was, however, thinking Moscow or St. Petersburg, not Siberia! :(

Ruuski yazik? Huh?

- Necron69

Insert Soviet Joke here...

[Grashnak]

All work in the gulag is unpaid overtime.

Indeed

[Flying pig]

Believe it or not,in the 80s we lost an engineer to Akademgorodok. He went there to install some scientific equipment which took far longer than expected. Came back, explained that everything was dirt slow but it was OK, they had paid his salary for the extra period. Then they needed a service visit and he went...and never came back. He had met a very nice Russian woman scientist while over there, and she had persuaded him to take a research job and stay.

The big problem is surely going to be, how the Hell do you turn it into a business model? Because unlike Berkeley or Stanford, as many have pointed out, there is only Mafia out there, not hungry businessmen looking for the Next Big Thing.

Putin says

[mapkinase]

Putin says: "Academgorodok will be next Silicon Valley... or else".

The Next Bangalore, perhaps?

[stereoroid]

Or the next Dalian? Bangalore is booming despite its restrictions on immigration & emigration, hardware imports, and its flaky infrastructure. My company has a support center there, and some fairly epic problems sending hardware to India for internal use only (never mind resale).

Manpower is also a problem; you'd think Bangalore would be awash with engineering graduates, and IIT is churning them out, but what happens when you need someone with actual experience? In my company's case we've been lucky with expatriates returning to India from the Middle East (mostly) and the USA (a few). We just don't find quality local candidates worth interviewing.

Will Russia be any better, with its lack of internationally-recognised qualifications and standards? I fail to see how any Silicon Valley comparisons are worth considering, even as a joke.

Re:The Next Bangalore, perhaps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bangalore seems at present bursting at the seams, but if you consider this... Bangalore was meant to be a post retirement place which offers calmness and a peaceful death probably - It was just by chance that Infosys and Wipro decided to set up shop and experienced phenomenal growth. Now every software company worth its salt has a branch / head office / development centre in Bangalore.
Also the powers be at Bangalore know that they need to improve the infrastructure is order to keep ahead and hold on to the number one spot in India / Asia.. they are doing their best and from what I have seen vis-a-vis other cities is that Bangalore is still very good infrastructure wise and far better than the other also-ran cities.

Re:The Next Bangalore, perhaps?

[phyrz]

Ive been involved in setting up a programming shop in Hyderabad over the last 6 months and we have discovered it really comes down to your HR processes when trying to get good experienced people. We setup some rather difficult tests - these are the first point of contact for a job candidate. We have about 5 PCs dedicated to these tests and have people constantly streaming through the door.

Its quite funny watching people with allegedly 4 years of programming experience sneak out the door when they know theyve been caught in the act.

From about 200 people that have sat our tests we have hired about 5. So you need to employ extra HR executives to line up interviews etc. Also the tests need to run themselves.

My point is, the labor market in India is huge, there are a lot of good people here, you just need to wade through the so-so people to get to them.

Re:The Next Bangalore, perhaps?

[La Fortezza]

I'm a sysadmin for one of the Big 5 consultancies and we too are having trouble finding qualified people in Bangalore. I'm tired of the 12 page resumes, interviewing early in the morning or late at night, the crappy VOIP lines and having to decipher a thick accent accompanied by street noise because the interviewee decided the best place to call us was from a rickshaw. We've given up on asking technical questions; the interviewee never seems to "get" the question and if they do we always get a one-word answer. All we look for now is the ability to speak english clearly and ask them about their past experience with the hope that they are telling the truth. The few candidates we do extend an offer to never seem to show up, they probably found a job somewhere else in the meantime that pays a penny more an hour.

Re:in Soviet Russia

[jimstapleton]

Horse zombies scare me. I prefer it when dead things act as they should...

Won't Go More Than Three Feet, Then Die

[MSTCrow5429]

"President Vladimir Putin has also taken note, backing the construction of a $650 million technology business district with $100 million in state funding for infrastructure."

That torpedoes things. Throwing money at business districts et al to artificially inflate development results in mostly empty business districts, and a more likely than not depressed economy where built, while businesses happily locate to areas of low taxes, rule of law, and respected property rights. Russia's business climate is dismal, its political climate threatening. Ham handed attempts to entice technology businesses to places themselves in such a poor business environment will fail. Successful governments attract business by limiting their intrusions into the economy, and keeping taxes and the regulatory burden low. Trying to essentially bribe businesses to move in with a new shiny office park will not hide the regressive decrepit state of affairs in Putin's Russia.

Re:Another stab at what appears to be a required j

[Anonymous Coward]

In soviet russia, silicon valley comes to you!

Re:in Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

No one wants to hear about your love life.

Geek Oversight: Women

[Anonymous Coward]

The one thing that is missing in this CNN article is women.

Caltech is regarded as the number #1 tech university in the USA and even excels that agricultural extension campus called MIT.

Many (maybe, most) Caltech graduates pursue graduate studies. Yet, even though Caltech is #1, most Caltech graduates avoid Caltech for graduate studies. The reason is that Pasedena, California has too few women.

Since UCLA (and Los Angeles in general) has plenty of hot-looking women, many Caltech graduates pursue their graduate degrees (and the women) at UCLA.

If Putin really wants to attract the brightest minds to the Silicon Forrest, then he should build a women-only college in the heart of Silicon Forrest.

Also check out Badonkadonk

[gatkinso]

for something interesting.

Flintstones?

[setrops]

Did anyone else read "Akademgorodok (Academy Town), " And thought that Mr. Slate had diversified from his quary business?

Twist Twist!

Untapped talent!

[ErichTheRed]

This shouldn't really come as a surprise. The former Soviet countries have long been known to have a lot of programming talent available. Don't forget that scientists and engineering types were treated pretty well under the Soviet system and technology/R&D was considered strategic. it would make sense that some of the older talent is still around, and passed down to a new generation.

Also, the stereotype of Russian organized crime controlling most of the phishing/conning scams out there is based on fact. Some of the attempts are really lame, but a lot of the Internet frauds committed are very sophisticated.

I'm sure Russia is happy to have the concentration of talent. We'll see what the next 20 or so years brings in the way of Russian politics, but the current climate seems very pro-business. Almost too pro-business if some of the stories are to be believed...

Lack of extrinsic motivation.

[jawahar]

As per research studies there is no such thing as "intrinsic" motivation. http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/inmotiv.htm
Even though they are talented, rest of the society does not inject the required "extrinsic motivation".

No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, this is how it will work:

Bright young Russian IT professional decides he has the next great idea and starts up a small company in an unrenovated apartment in Irkutsk.
First day: Mafia arrives, and demand a bribe. They leave after the bribe.
End of First month: Tax police arrive and demand taxes on his income. "But I don't have any income yet." "You must pay taxes!" They leave after a bribe.
End of Second month: Russian version of OSHA arrives and decides unrenovated apt is unsafe workplace for staff. They leave after a bribe.
End of Third month: Building superintendent finds out a business is being run in the apartment which is registered to an 80 year old pensioner (so they dont have to pay so much in utilities and fees). He leaves after a bribe.
End of Fourth month: All the money has been paid out in bribes, and the staff quit. Internet connection is turned off due to non-payment.

Young IT professional emigrates to Dubai where he makes $30,000 a year and marries a Filipino girl.

Yeah. Siberia is the next big thing all right.

Re:in Soviet Russia

[Reziac]

I'd kinda prefer it if dead things didn't "act" at all!!

One minor detail

[FormerlyLandlocked]

As a recent transplant from the planes to Silicon Valley, and having already been involved with 2 startups (and about to join #3), I'd like to point out one minor detail:

Silicon Valley has a culture that tolerates failure.

It is OK to fail here. It is not OK to fail in Japan, China, Russia or anywhere else.

Picture of the Russian Hacker in the article

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russian Hacker has a picture in the article. The caption is "A programmer restoring the glory of Mother Russia". Funny shit for CNN.

Who are you and what have you done with Slashdot?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Six hours into a thread about Siberia and not one "in former Soviet Russsia" joke?

OK, maybe that is the joke...

In Soviet Russia: +1, F The President

[Anonymous Coward]

Software reverse engineers you.

Re:Another stab at what appears to be a required j

[andy314159pi]

wow you'd think I posted something controversial or insulting to get modded down to a -2.

Re:in Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer it when dead things act as they should... Clearly you prefer sex with a mare.

Bless you!

[Qbertino]

Nastrovje! ... or something like that.

Re:Another stab at what appears to be a required j

[Gilmoure]

Why do you think they're selling all their oil to the west? Gotta warm things up up there and this way, they get paid for it.

Re:Geek Oversight: Women

[Gilmoure]

The Trans-Siberian College of Cosmology and Dental hygiene?

Because if I wear it any place else, it chafes.

I think you're missing the point.

[kninja]

Yes, there is a dearth of programming and technical talent in Russia, and there seems to be some of that happening in Siberia.

However, commercialization requires:

• 
   
• strong property rights [Silicon Valley (check), Russia (????)]
   
• access to markets [Silicon Valley (check), Russia (????)]
   
• access to capital [Silicon Valley (check), Russia (????)]
  

I've seen other countries try and build their own Silicon Valley, but ultimately, if there is talent (which there usually isn't), there is either corruption or vicious socialism (or both) that get in the way. I speak from experience.

San Francisco is not in or part of Silicon Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not even a valley, it's a peninsula.

My family has been in the bay area for 4 generations, with enough money to go where they want and nobody talks about how they'd love to live in SF.
They want to live in Cupertino for the schools, or Palo Alto for the commute.

San Francisco is dirty with high crime, lousy schools, crappy traffic, and tiny houses.

People live where they do because they can't afford to live in the $800k average house price suburbs of Cupertino, Santa Clara, Palo Alto, Saratoga, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, etc.

Easy : Cyberia!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cyberia!

Russian reality

[tirrarien]

Sorry for my strange english, but I want to tell some information about how russian programmers works. The first that you need in Russia it's education, BUT on the same deal the russian university can give you a good mathematical skills, but it's no good computer science education. In example, many university uses dos with Turbo Pascal/Watcom C, or more ... they uses ... Borland Deplhi on the win32 platform. And it's terrible. In the Russia if you want to be a good developer you *must* start working at university, and have a much self education. On the last year I was on the many interviews and I've listen the candidates for junior/senior developer position, and I can tell you that people with the long education stage on the university are BAD, they can't use mathematical skills to implement something, but people who hasn't university education does, they known mathematics and can use there skills. The other moment in the Russia - the most of developers in Russia thinking about migration to the Europe or USA, because the Russia is terrible country for his family - there are no warrantly for his wife or children from goverment. The "another silicon valley" is a "another people wants money" action. In the future the most of kind russian people will be migrate from Russia and Russia will be a stupid country that extracts oil and killing forests. PS yet another sorry for my strange english.

Pay

[shutdown -p now]

I'm a Russian software developer.

Are they going to pay me more than I get in Moscow? I don't think so. So why should I bother?

So here's your answer: no, it won't be the next Silicon Valley. Actually, it's not the first project of a kind either, there were a couple more already. So far, nothing had come out of this. Could it perhaps be because a "Silicon Valley" is not something the government can create just on its whim?

That's not going to happen

[burbilog]

It's just a "popil" -- this new Russian word means getting profit from the government project without doing anything useful. Unfortunately NOTHING could help Russia to get out of economy shithole.

Even today with sky-high oil prices our economy does not really improve. We have much more officials than whole USSR had and everything is too regulated to start a new successful business. If you run a business more than 30% of your profit is going into bribes, because otherwise government won't let you function. Add insane taxes and sudden changes in tax laws that require you to have a good accountant who keeps everything up to law (these women ARE expensive!). Add tax office that has the right to just take your money from your company account and explain this action later (and even if you fend off them in the court they are not going to bear any punishment, even if it was a mistake made by low-paid official).

It's possible to run a startup in Moscow (because the city is huge -- about 20 millions if you include Moscow region and illegal immigrants), you can tap this human resource, and laws work a little better then in rural Russia, and you are not alone, there are thousands of new companies get created every month. But today average salaries in Moscow are getting close to Europe's. As unix/cisco sysadmin I earn about $19k/year (after taxes). And today it's not much because average three-room flat cost about $400k... But if you try to run a startup in rural Russia you'll get a lot of attention from hungry government officials and they'll strangle your business before you get ANY profit.

Unfortunately most of the people in Russia still believe in socialism. As result they support party "Edinaya Rossia" that's now resembles the old communist party (while real communist party, KPRF became nothing but a bunch of clowns). As result Edinaya Rossia who took majority in Duma enough to pass laws without looking at other parties makes more and more laws that strangle businesses (and general people's rights) further and most people support these moves without understanding that they strangle themselves.

i'll scream if I hear XXX next Silicon Valley

[peter303]

Like there have been dozens of such articles since the dot.com boom.

The Future Belongs to Siberia

[spikeham]

"The Future Belongs to Siberia" is a Soviet slogan that my Russian babushka-in-law liked to repeat. It's a joke to westerners. However, in 50 or 100 years it won't be such a joke.

Siberia is the last great undeveloped yet habitable region of the Earth. It is vast, extending from north of the Arctic Circle down to the borders of China and other Asian nations, and from the Caucasus Mountains in the west to the Pacific; in total, significantly larger than all of Europe. The southern parts are temperate, far from the frozen taiga that most people imagine. It contains immense regions of forest, tundra, mountains, and natural resources of all kinds that have only begun to be exploited. Much of it still is reachable only by aircraft. Billions of people could live there, and eventually will.

In the near term, the Siberian cities are severely economically disadvantaged yet contain significant numbers of people who received advanced educations under the Soviet system, a combination that makes them ripe for offshore technology projects, as described in the original post.

- spike

Re:The Future Belongs to Siberia

[Grishnakh]

I disagree. Natural resources and human talent are great, but will never yield a strong, advanced economy without a good rule of law and with significant corruption. Read all the other posts here: Russia is famous for its mafia and corrupt government officials. When these are present, it's basically impossible for a legitimate business to succeed.

For a parallel, look at Mexico. While it doesn't have the educational advantages that Russia has, it certainly has many untapped natural resources, including oil. Even worse, the biggest oil-consumer (oil-guzzler?) in the world is Mexico's northern neighbor. So why isn't Mexico's economy thriving like those of the Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia? Simple: corruption. The cops all work for the drug kingpins, and nothing can get done with the government without bribes. All the people in the country are either criminals, or sit around and do nothing about the problem so it just gets worse.

Of course, there are those who will point out that the USA isn't without its share of corruption, and they're right. However, the corruption in the USA is mostly confined to the very highest levels of government, with Congress passing laws which benefit huge corporations and the President starting a war to help out Halliburton and the oil companies. At the lower levels of government, which most people deal with in their daily lives, corruption is either very minor or non-existent. (Incompetence is there of course, but every government seems to have that problem.) If you start a business, you just get a (cheap) business license, file your papers, and you're all set. You don't have government officials bullying you and asking for big bribes. If there's a problem, there are legal ways of dealing with them, and they mostly work. Running a business here is not a big problem. In someplace like Mexico, this simply isn't the case. And without businesses to keep people employed, you end up with a non-functioning economy and lots of unemployed people.

If you want your country to be more like the Western powers, and less like Mexico, you need to do something drastic to eliminate corruption so that businesses (especially smaller ones) can thrive and people don't have to turn to crime to survive.

How innovative is the first ever?

[21mhz]

Putting even small things in orbit was innovative for the time.