Are you sure there was a link? From the IRC channels, and my own experiences hunting for QT and libmng, that wouldn't seem to be the case. Maybe they added it at a latter time.
It was implied that in the KDE2 Redhat packages, was everything you needed to get started with Red Hat 7 to run KDE2. This wasn't the case, nor was it mentioned anywhere, nor was it linked to. All you got was an error message about QT, libmng, and various other bits and pieces. There's seemed to be a lot of people having the same problem, judging by the fact the rpmfind.net was down.
I do believe most Windows apps mention and offer to install said DirectX libraries.
Basically, the problem is the popular RPM, which needs DEB like brains. That doens't mean Red Hat sucks and folk should switch to Debian. Once this happens [and it is inevitable it will], installing software on Linux will truly be easier than on Windows.
I use and like Linux, but if we don't acknowledge our faults, we can't fix them
There are a couple of remaining issues, but yes, we're certainly advancing much faster than the competition. Linux is *definitely* easier to install than Windows already, for example [comparing Win2K and WinME with Red Hat 7 - in the WinME install, USB users don't even get mouse support for the first part of the install].
But here's what I see as some remaining issues to do with ease of use.
* Many root-requiring GUI apps display error messages rather than asking for authentication details
* Many error messages are too hard to understand, epecially for console apps. Try modifying/etc/fstab to mount a disk [/dev/sda] rather than a partiton [/dev/sda4] and look at the error message that pups up during your next reboot. This isn't Linux specific, but it sure does need improvement.
* The filesystem is still all over the place. Directories like/top confuse things significantly [what exactly is optional anyway]? Is grep optional? Is KDE? Or is it anything that didn't come with your distro - so Acroread for example, should be installed in different places on different distributions. Clueless folk like Adobe and Citrix put entire self contained apps into/usr/lib
* There's no stadard format for configuration files. An XML DTD would help significantly
* Sys Admins have to deal with multiple permission systems because rwx doesn't offer any fine grained control. So filesystem rwx, Squid and Samba ACLs, and probably more all have to be managed using different system. Linux needs POSIX ACLs badly.
* Lack of anti-aliasing or font smoothing causes accessibility issues for those with vision problems
* lack of comprehensive, distributiuon specific documentation. This is improving over time, but certainly the HOWTOs are often too generalized in nature [eg, they often tend to favour kernel recompiles even if they are not necessary for your distribution]. Those that aren't generalized usually are advertising pieces for a certain distro.
* Unfortunately, RPM lacks apt like qualities, and is far more prevalent. Once this is sorted, Linux apps WILL be easier to install than Windows
* Some minor changes need to be made. What the hell is a GNORPM? Why not just call the app `Installer' and put it on people's desktops?
Cool. But there's quite a few others who said before KDE2 was released that none of the KDE2 apps would even launch under GNOME. I had you confused for one of em.
Do you have any opinions regarding the Linux rwxs permission scheme? Since this allows for very little fine grained acess control, a number of significant security issues raise their head. Primarily, system admionistrators needing to log in with a `full system access' account [`root'] to properly administer the system. This seems to go against the Unix philosophy of giving users only permission to do only the tasks they need to perform on the system.
Furthermore a wide variety of applications aren't able to use the sceme as their access control mechanism. Thus they implement their own security schemes. Squid and [to a lesser extent] samba are two examples. The result of this is multiple security systems, and more fronts to fight crackers on.
What arre your thoughts o the issue? Do you believe in, and would you support, a future implementation of Posix ACLs into the Linux kernel?
Can any body provide me with a list of ANY significant Open Source projects hich TurboLinux has initiated or taken a large part in. Because I really can't think of anything, and Turbocluster server has been promised to be Open Sourced for about one and a half years anow, and I'm getting real tired of the wait.
Turbo's commenst about how `Linux was *once* developed by hackers, this isn't a very good thing, and we're going to change it' also has me worried.
I'm going to keep explaining this until something gets done.
* The FHS is not linux only
This is a probem. Like your sig says, GNU isn't Unix. We shouldn't follow everything Unix has previously done. We're here to improve, not imitate. God, I'd hate to think Linuxs role in life is to clone Unix. Is that why we still have this shitty permission system?
But if you mean a BSD [or any open source OS], the point still stands.
* Define `addon application software'. What's an addon? Something that comes in a distro is addon? Acroread is an addon in Red Hat, but not in Caldera. Do we install the same app in different locations?
Or is an addon soemthing which isn't necessary? What if you find the kernel source unnecessary? Or KDE? Or grep?
The concept of optional is entirely arbirary on any open source OS.
The error with Mandrake is thet their KDE moutn icon is det to use default filesystem, rather than reiserfs. If you change it, you don't get the error.
Re: GUI/CLI and suoermount. Supermount is a service. It's not provided by a GUI. And frankly, other than uber-security installations, I personally don't see any reason why removable media does needs to be mounted or unmounted.
So does KOffice - I've been using them for a week. Why is everyone saying that KDE2 apps don't run under GNOME? They seem to, perfectly, in my experiences.
God, what pathetic moderation. The above poster hasn't used any of the last THREE releases of Mandrake.
Okay, Mandrake has a feature called supermount for quite some time. It works better than automount because it allows much seamless access ro read/write media than amd does, especially floppy disks. The drive light goes off, you pull it out. Same as Windows. You press the eject button, put a CD in, and can acces it. Same as Windows.
And re: dumbifying the user, nobodies removing your GCLI apps and replacing them with GUIs. You can still use Linux they way you want to, its just that others can use Linux the way they want to. I can't see the problem with it myself.
CUPS is the common Unix printing system, and is designed to be a much easier to use, and managable printing system than LPD, which well... sucks ass really. The range of drivers are around the same for both right now, and CUPS output across a variety of printers seems much improved. You can expoect CUPS to be the standard printing mechanism in mot distros in upcoming releases.
A similar system is ALSa, which replaces OSS as the default sound mechanism. ALSO now has more than twice the number of drivers that OSS has. Additionally, it provides room for a number of nifty things, like proper 3D sound, cleaner mixing from multiple sound sources, DevFS, closed source drivers, and easier setup. ALSA is at a 0.6 stage, but already it beats OSS for ease of use.
I have no idea why every distro isn't shipping with ALSA now. It rocks. And by the way, Mandrake will detect and install your soundcard during the regular install without any questions.
Root permission isn't, and shouldn't be necessary for mounting CDs on a desktop based distro like Mandrake.
Nor do they encourage users to log in as root [or type `su -', cause that's damned confusing. You click DrakConf [on everyone's desktop], which prompts for the root pw and then prsents you with a neat m,enu of admin tools.
The issue is that Mandrake should have created KDE file association from RPM files to gnorpm-auth or `kdesu kpackage', rather than kpackage. That's actually the KDE peoples fault. Not to say the Mandrake people shouldn't have tried to fix it.
Hmm... those puny little 640 MB CD-RW's harken back to "swapping floppies" a lot more than the 2 GB Iomega Jaz drives do... Yes, but Jaz disks [which are basically a single platter hard disk] harken back to `oh shit, disk 6 of 12 is broken and suddenly my data is unrecoverable' a lot more. Moving parts sucks.
Why are students saving data onto floppies and moving them through your institution in the first place?
Why not use home directories and SSH? There's a number of easy SSH and SCP clients for Windows, Linux, and Unix. Though none of them match the ease of use as the Linux based GFTP, you could provide instructions for the syntax for the CLI versions [its not that hard].
Setup the home dir using the SMB BOX\\home\%username% syntax on your Windows login scripts, or NIS is you've got Linux or Unix clients. Using NIS on your Linux clients will also provide your users with a roaming desktop environment.
PS. With a little playing, you can set yup the same thing using a combination of policies and profiles on a Windows box, but between NT and 9X, its a massive kludge.
Unfortunately, unlike the original group of comparies that standarzized on the floppy disks, all of its self proclaimed `successors' simply aren't standards because they're all tightly controlled by a single company. As a result, prices are kept artificially high and none will ever be a standard. Zip [96Mb], Zip [246Mb], Imation Superdisk [aka, LS120, 120Mb] or any of the others will NEVER be standards, not matter how much its manufacturers say they are.
So Zip media remains $A25 for 100Mb, while CDRs remain $A2 for 650Mb. You can read the zip disk on a few machines, you can read the CDR on nearly all drives. Zip disks take an extraoridinary long time to save, while 8x IDE CDRs can be had for around $A300 [$US150ish, since we have a pathetic tech economy and our dollars pretty weak]. Zip drives cost around $320 for a retail USB 250, [I'm not sure how much for 100Mb or OEM, but it will be more than a CDR]. Zips have moving parts. CDRs don't.
Yes a CDR isn't rewritable. But the media and drive costs more than make up for it. You wan't to write another disk? Spend $A2 and break your old one in half.
Oh, and remember, the writing times on an 8 x CDR [around 8 mins] are much less for smaller amounts of data [not a full CD]. Its likely your students will only be writing small amount sof data [10Mb, its nearly instant].
Show me a linux server and client that has everything kerberos-enabled out of the box. Okay. I'm presemuning you mean `installed and ready to be configured' rather than 'already configured for you' [no operating system configures your directory service for you - this would be highly pathetic and defeat the purspose of the exercise].
Red Hat seven. Just run setup, pick `Authenticatiuon Configuration', set up enter the info for your directory service, and you're happy. Its likely other current distros are shipping with LDAP out of the box, but I haven't checked them out yet.
Oh, an ReiserFS has shipped for about six months on the 2 latest releases from Mandrakle and SuSE. CUPS also ships with Mandrake and fixes Unix printing, but its still not as easy as Windows yet.
Slashdot Mirror
Are you sure there was a link? From the IRC channels, and my own experiences hunting for QT and libmng, that wouldn't seem to be the case. Maybe they added it at a latter time.
It was implied that in the KDE2 Redhat packages, was everything you needed to get started with Red Hat 7 to run KDE2. This wasn't the case, nor was it mentioned anywhere, nor was it linked to. All you got was an error message about QT, libmng, and various other bits and pieces. There's seemed to be a lot of people having the same problem, judging by the fact the rpmfind.net was down.
I do believe most Windows apps mention and offer to install said DirectX libraries.
Basically, the problem is the popular RPM, which needs DEB like brains. That doens't mean Red Hat sucks and folk should switch to Debian. Once this happens [and it is inevitable it will], installing software on Linux will truly be easier than on Windows.
I use and like Linux, but if we don't acknowledge our faults, we can't fix them
There are a couple of remaining issues, but yes, we're certainly advancing much faster than the competition. Linux is *definitely* easier to install than Windows already, for example [comparing Win2K and WinME with Red Hat 7 - in the WinME install, USB users don't even get mouse support for the first part of the install].
/etc/fstab to mount a disk [/dev/sda] rather than a partiton [/dev/sda4] and look at the error message that pups up during your next reboot. This isn't Linux specific, but it sure does need improvement.
/top confuse things significantly [what exactly is optional anyway]? Is grep optional? Is KDE? Or is it anything that didn't come with your distro - so Acroread for example, should be installed in different places on different distributions. Clueless folk like Adobe and Citrix put entire self contained apps into /usr/lib
But here's what I see as some remaining issues to do with ease of use.
* Many root-requiring GUI apps display error messages rather than asking for authentication details
* Many error messages are too hard to understand, epecially for console apps. Try modifying
* The filesystem is still all over the place. Directories like
* There's no stadard format for configuration files. An XML DTD would help significantly
* Sys Admins have to deal with multiple permission systems because rwx doesn't offer any fine grained control. So filesystem rwx, Squid and Samba ACLs, and probably more all have to be managed using different system. Linux needs POSIX ACLs badly.
* Lack of anti-aliasing or font smoothing causes accessibility issues for those with vision problems
* lack of comprehensive, distributiuon specific documentation. This is improving over time, but certainly the HOWTOs are often too generalized in nature [eg, they often tend to favour kernel recompiles even if they are not necessary for your distribution]. Those that aren't generalized usually are advertising pieces for a certain distro.
* Unfortunately, RPM lacks apt like qualities, and is far more prevalent. Once this is sorted, Linux apps WILL be easier to install than Windows
* Some minor changes need to be made. What the hell is a GNORPM? Why not just call the app `Installer' and put it on people's desktops?
Well, there's my $0.02
-------
Cool. But there's quite a few others who said before KDE2 was released that none of the KDE2 apps would even launch under GNOME. I had you confused for one of em.
Do you have any opinions regarding the Linux rwxs permission scheme? Since this allows for very little fine grained acess control, a number of significant security issues raise their head. Primarily, system admionistrators needing to log in with a `full system access' account [`root'] to properly administer the system. This seems to go against the Unix philosophy of giving users only permission to do only the tasks they need to perform on the system.
Furthermore a wide variety of applications aren't able to use the sceme as their access control mechanism. Thus they implement their own security schemes. Squid and [to a lesser extent] samba are two examples. The result of this is multiple security systems, and more fronts to fight crackers on.
What arre your thoughts o the issue? Do you believe in, and would you support, a future implementation of Posix ACLs into the Linux kernel?
Can any body provide me with a list of ANY significant Open Source projects hich TurboLinux has initiated or taken a large part in. Because I really can't think of anything, and Turbocluster server has been promised to be Open Sourced for about one and a half years anow, and I'm getting real tired of the wait.
Turbo's commenst about how `Linux was *once* developed by hackers, this isn't a very good thing, and we're going to change it' also has me worried.
I nearly read that as `Ask Jay and Silent Bob about Bastille Linux'. :-)
Oh, and I'd like to add, if /opt isn't for optional software, then its mislabelled. Let's fix it.
I'm going to keep explaining this until something gets done.
* The FHS is not linux only
This is a probem. Like your sig says, GNU isn't Unix. We shouldn't follow everything Unix has previously done. We're here to improve, not imitate. God, I'd hate to think Linuxs role in life is to clone Unix. Is that why we still have this shitty permission system?
But if you mean a BSD [or any open source OS], the point still stands.
* Define `addon application software'. What's an addon? Something that comes in a distro is addon? Acroread is an addon in Red Hat, but not in Caldera. Do we install the same app in different locations?
Or is an addon soemthing which isn't necessary? What if you find the kernel source unnecessary? Or KDE? Or grep?
The concept of optional is entirely arbirary on any open source OS.
> Yep, and I said so.
Fair 'nuff
The error with Mandrake is thet their KDE moutn icon is det to use default filesystem, rather than reiserfs. If you change it, you don't get the error.
Re: GUI/CLI and suoermount. Supermount is a service. It's not provided by a GUI. And frankly, other than uber-security installations, I personally don't see any reason why removable media does needs to be mounted or unmounted.
Combine a computer company with a horror author and get a porno name. Just wanted to say you have the greatest nick ever.
So does KOffice - I've been using them for a week. Why is everyone saying that KDE2 apps don't run under GNOME? They seem to, perfectly, in my experiences.
I might add
linuxconf-auth
to that list. Lauinch it and it will prompt for the password, when start the app if sucessful. VERY handy.
God, what pathetic moderation. The above poster hasn't used any of the last THREE releases of Mandrake.
Okay, Mandrake has a feature called supermount for quite some time. It works better than automount because it allows much seamless access ro read/write media than amd does, especially floppy disks. The drive light goes off, you pull it out. Same as Windows. You press the eject button, put a CD in, and can acces it. Same as Windows.
And re: dumbifying the user, nobodies removing your GCLI apps and replacing them with GUIs. You can still use Linux they way you want to, its just that others can use Linux the way they want to. I can't see the problem with it myself.
CUPS is the common Unix printing system, and is designed to be a much easier to use, and managable printing system than LPD, which well... sucks ass really. The range of drivers are around the same for both right now, and CUPS output across a variety of printers seems much improved. You can expoect CUPS to be the standard printing mechanism in mot distros in upcoming releases.
A similar system is ALSa, which replaces OSS as the default sound mechanism. ALSO now has more than twice the number of drivers that OSS has. Additionally, it provides room for a number of nifty things, like proper 3D sound, cleaner mixing from multiple sound sources, DevFS, closed source drivers, and easier setup. ALSA is at a 0.6 stage, but already it beats OSS for ease of use.
I have no idea why every distro isn't shipping with ALSA now. It rocks. And by the way, Mandrake will detect and install your soundcard during the regular install without any questions.
I second you on the ACLs part. Unix had some brilliant ideas, of which rwx permissions were not a part.
In fact, the Unix tradition is to give an account only the permissions it needs to perform the day to day work.
So why the hell are we still logging in to perform administrative tasks with a FULL ACCESS account.
ACLs for Linux kernel 3.0!!!
They have. Five hours ago [in Aus at least].
Root permission isn't, and shouldn't be necessary for mounting CDs on a desktop based distro like Mandrake.
Nor do they encourage users to log in as root [or type `su -', cause that's damned confusing. You click DrakConf [on everyone's desktop], which prompts for the root pw and then prsents you with a neat m,enu of admin tools.
The issue is that Mandrake should have created KDE file association from RPM files to gnorpm-auth or `kdesu kpackage', rather than kpackage. That's actually the KDE peoples fault. Not to say the Mandrake people shouldn't have tried to fix it.
Hmm ... those puny little 640 MB CD-RW's harken back to "swapping floppies" a lot more than the 2 GB Iomega Jaz drives do ...
Yes, but Jaz disks [which are basically a single platter hard disk] harken back to `oh shit, disk 6 of 12 is broken and suddenly my data is unrecoverable' a lot more. Moving parts sucks.
presumably something like the Linuxbios work would make it possible to boot off a floppy that has an ext2 filesystem
It already is.
Why are students saving data onto floppies and moving them through your institution in the first place?
Why not use home directories and SSH? There's a number of easy SSH and SCP clients for Windows, Linux, and Unix. Though none of them match the ease of use as the Linux based GFTP, you could provide instructions for the syntax for the CLI versions [its not that hard].
Setup the home dir using the SMB BOX\\home\%username% syntax on your Windows login scripts, or NIS is you've got Linux or Unix clients. Using NIS on your Linux clients will also provide your users with a roaming desktop environment.
PS. With a little playing, you can set yup the same thing using a combination of policies and profiles on a Windows box, but between NT and 9X, its a massive kludge.
Unfortunately, unlike the original group of comparies that standarzized on the floppy disks, all of its self proclaimed `successors' simply aren't standards because they're all tightly controlled by a single company. As a result, prices are kept artificially high and none will ever be a standard. Zip [96Mb], Zip [246Mb], Imation Superdisk [aka, LS120, 120Mb] or any of the others will NEVER be standards, not matter how much its manufacturers say they are.
So Zip media remains $A25 for 100Mb, while CDRs remain $A2 for 650Mb. You can read the zip disk on a few machines, you can read the CDR on nearly all drives. Zip disks take an extraoridinary long time to save, while 8x IDE CDRs can be had for around $A300 [$US150ish, since we have a pathetic tech economy and our dollars pretty weak]. Zip drives cost around $320 for a retail USB 250, [I'm not sure how much for 100Mb or OEM, but it will be more than a CDR]. Zips have moving parts. CDRs don't.
Yes a CDR isn't rewritable. But the media and drive costs more than make up for it. You wan't to write another disk? Spend $A2 and break your old one in half.
Oh, and remember, the writing times on an 8 x CDR [around 8 mins] are much less for smaller amounts of data [not a full CD]. Its likely your students will only be writing small amount sof data [10Mb, its nearly instant].
Agreed. The Linux security model *IS* weak
welcome to the real world.
;-)
The Matrix is the wool that's been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Sorry, couldn't resist
Show me a linux server and client that has everything kerberos-enabled out of the box.
Okay. I'm presemuning you mean `installed and ready to be configured' rather than 'already configured for you' [no operating system configures your directory service for you - this would be highly pathetic and defeat the purspose of the exercise].
Red Hat seven. Just run setup, pick `Authenticatiuon Configuration', set up enter the info for your directory service, and you're happy. Its likely other current distros are shipping with LDAP out of the box, but I haven't checked them out yet.
Oh, an ReiserFS has shipped for about six months on the 2 latest releases from Mandrakle and SuSE. CUPS also ships with Mandrake and fixes Unix printing, but its still not as easy as Windows yet.
Sounds logical. But I'm quite sure there is a 2.5. The PIIX4 chipset update for Win95 figures in there somehwere too.