Any time you want to install software
DO:
log out of your restricted account
log into the admin account
install the software
then go back to your restricted account.
There's no need to log out. You can use the "runas" command to run the installer with the proper credentials from your restricted account.
Source address level filtering does provide some level of protection against a SYN flood.
My point was that this attack has to use a valid IP, because it needs to create a connection. It is therefore easier to block than a SYN flood, which could spoof any address or groups of addresses.
The problem is, it is not universally implemented.
That's news to me. Which commercial firewall hardware does not have this ability?
Another problem is someone who doesn't care to hide their address. If you are doing more than a SYN flood, but more advanced TCP hijinx, you need to use your read IP address anyhow. So, it's not much of a fix.
That's exactly what this attack entails. The attacker has to use their real address with this, so it's easier to block them at the firewall. You might have a problem with your bandwidth, but you'd have that same exact problem regardless of the fix you choose to implement. You'd also have that same problem during a SYN flood.
Neither is the recommendations which came out back in 2000, which was to increase the resource limits that the operating system imposed upon the IP stack. I could go on and on, on how each measure so far implemented has just raised the bar against these type of attacks, but hasn't really done much to prevent them.
If you read the alert from CERT-FI, it says:
March 23 2009. Discussions have been ongoing with a number of vendors, and several of them are currently in various phases of patch development process. Judging by the current progress, CERT-FI is confident that functional fixes to mitigate the risk can be expected to be released during this year.
(Which, BTW, if you expect to sell your solution to vendors, you'd better hurry up.)
My point was that the collapse of the internet due to this attack has been completely exaggerated. As Fyodor explains, this type of attack has been known about for a long time, and it can be filtered.
I'm lazy but do some googling - a linux shop did exactly what you recommended and the company was destroyed by seizure of their computers a few hours later.
I did some googling, and I was unable to find specific mention of a Linux shop that was raided by the BSA. What I did find was several articles about Ernie Ball being raided by the BSA. After they were raided, they switched to using OSS. They were shut down for a day, but they did not go out of business.
I would be interested in knowing which company you are referring to.
How do casual music fans find out, for example, that Dream Theater has a new album coming out in June? Do you think it's going to get a giant Wal-Mart display?
Yes, actually, it's possible; I've seen one of those. Dream Theater is much more mainstream than you think. When they came out with their Greatest Hits album, I remember seeing an in store display at (of all places) Circuit City. Their Train of Thought and Octavarium albums were also popular enough to make it into the top releases rack at Best Buy. There are still some albums by DT, though, that you won't find unless you know about their own label.
Still, I understand what you are saying. For small progressive metal acts, like Hourglass, getting the word out about a new album can be a challenge. Even for bands that are very popular worldwide, like Symphony X, there is hardly any traction in the U.S.
Nobody will sit on an exploit all year because there's no way to know what to hang on to, or whether the hole will still be there in a month, let alone a year.
I actually found this bug before last year's Pwn2Own but, at the time, it was harder to exploit. I came to CanSecWest last year with two bugs but only one exploit. Last year, you could only win once so I saved the second bug. Turns out, it was still there this year so I wrote another exploit and used it this year.
If it's the commercial I think you're thinking of, they weren't staring at him because the computer looked unique. They were staring at him, because the red color means he bought a (Product)^RED notebook:
Dell has released three computers (M1330, M1530 and XPS One) and one printer (V505 All-In-One) that are Product Red; the contract will last for 3 years as of Jan 2008.
A percentage of the profit from (Product)^RED products is given to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. In other words, they were staring and cheering, because they noticed his compassion. This also better explains why the woman in the commercial kisses him.
I am so excited about this that I'm going to start working on it just as soon as I get done rewriting all my userspace tools in TCL.
I've already started implementing your registry idea using Clojure. I've written it so that the registry API uses a GA to breed the best configuration settings. They may not actually be the best settings for you, but they are most definitely the fittest. I don't think we'll need the checksum.
Not here, I never saw my crazy (ex) girlfriend coming...
For people who are about to post an immature, snide comment about this being the possible reason for HartDev and his girlfriend's estrangement (ostensibly due to HartDev's ineffectual sexual performance) or how they have personally witnessed the orgasmic pleasure of HartDev's ex-girlfriend (insinuating that they not only were able to locate the ex-girlfriend of a virtually anonymous poster, but have also succeeded in obtaining coitus with her and moreover had satisfied her pure animal lust one warm summer night with the moonlight playing upon her silken hair, her nipples erect on her firm heaving breasts, while every thrust of the throbbing manhood penetrated deep within her quivering quim bringing her ever closer to a screaming climax the likes of which only the mythical consorts of the Greek gods have ever experienced), please take note:
So what are you saying? That they are actually hypocrites?
Maybe they also have TVs and the internet, and whores and blackjack but they hide it because of tourists?
No, I am saying you do not understand them. You think you know them, but it's obvious by your question that you have no idea about their culture. Your hatred is entirely misplaced, because you have absolutely no understanding about their culture.
The "dedicated faith-based" part just indicates cultural mental retardation.
These people show no signs of mental retardation. You are a bigot if you think that just because a culture has a certain philosophy different from your own that they have some sort of mental retardation. Furthermore, if you decide that you hate a culture without understanding that culture or having any desire to learn more about that culture, then you are the one that is showing signs of mental instability.
And the fact that they are not oblivious but instead CHOOSE not to act to potential dangers of infectious diseases...
They do act. They do not actively choose to endanger other people. What part about that can you not understand? They get vaccinated. Period. End of story.
No, no, no... You misunderstood. Let me repeat that, pointing out the key words.
I have ABSOLUTELY nothing against them or any other group of religious fanatics making themselves extinct
No, you misunderstood. If you had nothing against these people, your sentence would have ended at, "them". Instead, you chose to first denigrate their culture and then express satisfaction if people were to die. That is not the reaction of a stable person to a culture that they do not understand.
What can I say... I'm in my Australian period.
You have both deliberately chosen inflammatory words to describe a culture and expressed your hatred towards a community who bears you no ill will. This type of behavior is not something you should be proud of or shrug off as a "period".
No. Just sinful.
WRONG, they absolutely DO NOT find it sinful. They choose not to use certain technologies as part of their community standards, and they may petition the community to allow different technologies. They also do not have a problem with other people helping them through the use of a technology that they themselves choose not to use. For instance, they may not themselves have a car, but they have no issues with getting a ride from someone. Obviously this does not apply to those communities which choose to use automobiles. Please learn something about their culture.
Cause if you start zipping your pants - oh man... You might as well just step up to the baby Jesus and pee in his face.
Cause you are so hoch-and-mut, so why the fuck not?
This is the kind of thing I am talking about. How can you not realize how arrogant and rude you are being? This is not how a normal person describes a culture.
Not all of it. Just the "god told us so" part.
Talking to imaginary creatures - NOT a pinnacle of mental health.
This is another example of the kind of arrogance you have shown that borders on the ridiculous. You are basing your assessment of an entire culture's mental health on a false premise and a distorted view of actuality. As can be shown by your actions and your words, you are in no position to call anyone's mental health into question, let alone an entire culture's.
Now, it took me couple of years to master it, but we can safely say that I know all there is to know about humility.
Not from where I stand. You consider yourself to be superior to entire groups of people. That is not humility.
I prefer the term - "violently dislike".
It is a jedi th
with 19th-century ways that include a deep-rooted suspicion of vaccination
Nowhere does that imply that they don't get vaccinations. They have a suspicion of art too, but that doesn't mean that they don't have it.
See... there is this thing called sarcasm. Only it is not really A THING... you can't take in your hand or anything... it is more like a concept...
I was pointing out that your impressions of their culture are fantastically ignorant by ignoring your sarcasm. Maybe I should have just spelled it out: You are ignorant of their culture.
Yeah... pity their highly developed Amish powers do diddly-squat when it comes to those god's littlest things, which he, in his wisdom, had put upon this Earth.
This statement clearly illustrates your ignorance. The fact that they choose to live a dedicated faith-based lifestyle absolutely does not mean that they are oblivious to the reality of germs or anything else about the modern world.
Don't get me wrong...
I have ABSOLUTELY nothing against them or any other group of religious fanatics making themselves extinct by isolating their gene pool and forgoing such blasphemous technologies as vaccination or say... blood transfusion (gotta love 'em Jehovah's witnesses). Should they start to sacrifice their firstborns I would applaud with delight at their devotion to their neurosis.
If you have nothing against them, then why do you denigrate their culture? There are ways that you can say that you do not share their beliefs without resorting to bigotry. The Amish do not consider technology blasphemous, and it's highly unlikely that they are going to start killing their children. Saying these highly inflammatory things and calling a people's culture a neurosis is arrogant and uninformed.
One of the largest tenets of their belief system is humility. You would do yourself well to actually learn something from them.
But I have this little problem with those germs and viruses that inhabit them refusing to stick only to "the god's favorite people".
Instead, they have this bad habit of lingering around, breeding, mutating, infecting other people...
People who may be vaccinated against the original flavor of the germ but not to the New Improved Mutated VersionTM intended only for god's special people.
Now you've gone from intolerance to outright hatred. First, you are indicating that these people won't get medical attention, when it's clear from that article that they do. Then you are outright blaming them for an epidemic that hasn't happened yet. Furthermore, you are throwing out any scientific understanding of epidemics and concluding that a people that chooses to stay isolated is going to be the cause of the downfall of humanity when probably the opposite is true. All the while you are doing everything you possibly can to deride their culture for your own edification. These are not the actions of someone reasonable. These are the actions of a person who is openly hostile towards cultural differences.
So you see...
When it comes to infective diseases - I can't just "leave them alone".
Then you should be helping them instead of reveling in your own misplaced superiority. If you were a person that actually cared about this, you would be volunteering with the Red Cross and other organizations to go out to these areas and make sure that Amish children are vaccinated. The only reason you "care" about this is so that you can announce your ascendancy over a culture that you consider backwards. What you are doing is not productive, considerate, or healthy. It simply promotes fear and ill will.
You are being incredibly disdainful, intolerant, rude, and immature. You are doing nothing to foster goodwill between yourself and anyone else, and you are not helping whatever cause you think it is that you represent. You are a bigoted fundamentalist that needs to learn how to live in society.
Symantec, which is contributing its malware-analysis expertise to the group, believes there are two main versions of Conflicker, "Flavor A" and "Flavor B,"
The flavors were determined using LOLCATS. True story.
It does not sound like they made an emotional decision at all, but rather an informed decision to stagger when their child received the vaccinations. If you read the OP's comment, you can see that their child received all the vaccinations the doctor recommended. From the OP's comment:
Thankfully, my wife speaks microbiology, specifically related to immunology, rather well. We discussed the various vaccines they wanted to give, and settled on giving 3 (one oral, two intravenous) out of the 5 at our last visit. The remaining two will be given next week -- more than two weeks after the first three.
Our doctor praised our decision, saying, "I'm told it's safe, all the studies suggest it's safe, but my common sense tells me you're making a responsible decision here."
The vaccines are grouped mainly for convenience anyway.
You know what's really going to make the your head asplode?
Sony TVs come with a printed version of the GPL and LGPL!
(also the license statements for OpenSSL, FreeType2, Expat, Curl, Popt, and libjpeg)
...and, yes, they provide the link to the source code.
They're evil, but they're in compliance with the GPL.
They're evil, but they're in compliance with the GPL.
They're evil, but they're in compilance with the GPL.
We're sorry to hear that you do not approve of the Universal Crackpot Spam Solution Rebuttal Form.
As you are no doubt aware, per Slashdot rules this form must be posted in all articles pertaining to a spam solution. This form was carefully crafted by leading experts in their field, and has been serving the community well for almost a decade.
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Any time you want to install software
DO:
log out of your restricted account
log into the admin account
install the software
then go back to your restricted account.
There's no need to log out. You can use the "runas" command to run the installer with the proper credentials from your restricted account.
He was forced to use a 3270 terminal, you insensitive clod.
Source address level filtering does provide some level of protection against a SYN flood.
My point was that this attack has to use a valid IP, because it needs to create a connection. It is therefore easier to block than a SYN flood, which could spoof any address or groups of addresses.
The problem is, it is not universally implemented.
That's news to me. Which commercial firewall hardware does not have this ability?
Another problem is someone who doesn't care to hide their address. If you are doing more than a SYN flood, but more advanced TCP hijinx, you need to use your read IP address anyhow. So, it's not much of a fix.
That's exactly what this attack entails. The attacker has to use their real address with this, so it's easier to block them at the firewall. You might have a problem with your bandwidth, but you'd have that same exact problem regardless of the fix you choose to implement. You'd also have that same problem during a SYN flood.
Neither is the recommendations which came out back in 2000, which was to increase the resource limits that the operating system imposed upon the IP stack. I could go on and on, on how each measure so far implemented has just raised the bar against these type of attacks, but hasn't really done much to prevent them.
If you read the alert from CERT-FI, it says:
March 23 2009. Discussions have been ongoing with a number of vendors, and several of them are currently in various phases of patch development process. Judging by the current progress, CERT-FI is confident that functional fixes to mitigate the risk can be expected to be released during this year.
(Which, BTW, if you expect to sell your solution to vendors, you'd better hurry up.)
My point was that the collapse of the internet due to this attack has been completely exaggerated. As Fyodor explains, this type of attack has been known about for a long time, and it can be filtered.
Can you guarantee that the fix will be rolled out to everyone at the same time?
The fix has already been rolled out long ago.
Do you know what the fix is? Source address level filtering. It's that simple.
This attack is less of a threat than SYN flooding attacks, because the attacker's address can't be spoofed. More information from Fyodor.
but wait - i thought open source was awesome and couldn't fail?!
It's too big to fail.
Like Flamer, Troll and Sniper.
You should restate this fragment as a complete sentence.
Sorry, I just unlocked the Grammar Nazi class.
I'm lazy but do some googling - a linux shop did exactly what you recommended and the company was destroyed by seizure of their computers a few hours later.
I did some googling, and I was unable to find specific mention of a Linux shop that was raided by the BSA. What I did find was several articles about Ernie Ball being raided by the BSA. After they were raided, they switched to using OSS. They were shut down for a day, but they did not go out of business.
I would be interested in knowing which company you are referring to.
If they pull a rabbit out of a deuterium tank, that's going to be one seriously pissed off rabbit.
Bullwinkle: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of this deuterium tank!
Rocky: Again? That trick never works...
Rocky & Bullwinkle are prescient.
How do casual music fans find out, for example, that Dream Theater has a new album coming out in June? Do you think it's going to get a giant Wal-Mart display?
Yes, actually, it's possible; I've seen one of those. Dream Theater is much more mainstream than you think. When they came out with their Greatest Hits album, I remember seeing an in store display at (of all places) Circuit City. Their Train of Thought and Octavarium albums were also popular enough to make it into the top releases rack at Best Buy. There are still some albums by DT, though, that you won't find unless you know about their own label.
Still, I understand what you are saying. For small progressive metal acts, like Hourglass, getting the word out about a new album can be a challenge. Even for bands that are very popular worldwide, like Symphony X, there is hardly any traction in the U.S.
Nobody will sit on an exploit all year because there's no way to know what to hang on to, or whether the hole will still be there in a month, let alone a year.
That's exactly what happened this year:
I actually found this bug before last year's Pwn2Own but, at the time, it was harder to exploit. I came to CanSecWest last year with two bugs but only one exploit. Last year, you could only win once so I saved the second bug. Turns out, it was still there this year so I wrote another exploit and used it this year.
Dell has released three computers (M1330, M1530 and XPS One) and one printer (V505 All-In-One) that are Product Red; the contract will last for 3 years as of Jan 2008.
A percentage of the profit from (Product)^RED products is given to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. In other words, they were staring and cheering, because they noticed his compassion. This also better explains why the woman in the commercial kisses him.
Respectfully sir, you've never watched Evangelion, have you?
Wait, are you the guy who sent Hideaki Anno the death threat or the one who tagged Gainax headquarters?
Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations!
Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations!
I am so excited about this that I'm going to start working on it just as soon as I get done rewriting all my userspace tools in TCL.
I've already started implementing your registry idea using Clojure. I've written it so that the registry API uses a GA to breed the best configuration settings. They may not actually be the best settings for you, but they are most definitely the fittest. I don't think we'll need the checksum.
No, you really should not do that.
...because serious business of this nature is a job for 4chan!
And, in the meantime, Java has come along, re-inventing and re-implementing tons of features from Lisp and Unix.
Not just tons of features, they accidentally the whole thing!
There is an easy introduction from a Java perspective.
Not here, I never saw my crazy (ex) girlfriend coming...
For people who are about to post an immature, snide comment about this being the possible reason for HartDev and his girlfriend's estrangement (ostensibly due to HartDev's ineffectual sexual performance) or how they have personally witnessed the orgasmic pleasure of HartDev's ex-girlfriend (insinuating that they not only were able to locate the ex-girlfriend of a virtually anonymous poster, but have also succeeded in obtaining coitus with her and moreover had satisfied her pure animal lust one warm summer night with the moonlight playing upon her silken hair, her nipples erect on her firm heaving breasts, while every thrust of the throbbing manhood penetrated deep within her quivering quim bringing her ever closer to a screaming climax the likes of which only the mythical consorts of the Greek gods have ever experienced), please take note:
HartDev is blind, you insensitive clods!
So what are you saying? That they are actually hypocrites? Maybe they also have TVs and the internet, and whores and blackjack but they hide it because of tourists?
No, I am saying you do not understand them. You think you know them, but it's obvious by your question that you have no idea about their culture. Your hatred is entirely misplaced, because you have absolutely no understanding about their culture.
The "dedicated faith-based" part just indicates cultural mental retardation.
These people show no signs of mental retardation. You are a bigot if you think that just because a culture has a certain philosophy different from your own that they have some sort of mental retardation. Furthermore, if you decide that you hate a culture without understanding that culture or having any desire to learn more about that culture, then you are the one that is showing signs of mental instability.
And the fact that they are not oblivious but instead CHOOSE not to act to potential dangers of infectious diseases...
They do act. They do not actively choose to endanger other people. What part about that can you not understand? They get vaccinated. Period. End of story.
No, no, no... You misunderstood. Let me repeat that, pointing out the key words.
I have ABSOLUTELY nothing against them or any other group of religious fanatics making themselves extinct
No, you misunderstood. If you had nothing against these people, your sentence would have ended at, "them". Instead, you chose to first denigrate their culture and then express satisfaction if people were to die. That is not the reaction of a stable person to a culture that they do not understand.
What can I say... I'm in my Australian period.
You have both deliberately chosen inflammatory words to describe a culture and expressed your hatred towards a community who bears you no ill will. This type of behavior is not something you should be proud of or shrug off as a "period".
No. Just sinful.
WRONG, they absolutely DO NOT find it sinful. They choose not to use certain technologies as part of their community standards, and they may petition the community to allow different technologies. They also do not have a problem with other people helping them through the use of a technology that they themselves choose not to use. For instance, they may not themselves have a car, but they have no issues with getting a ride from someone. Obviously this does not apply to those communities which choose to use automobiles. Please learn something about their culture.
Cause if you start zipping your pants - oh man... You might as well just step up to the baby Jesus and pee in his face. Cause you are so hoch-and-mut, so why the fuck not?
This is the kind of thing I am talking about. How can you not realize how arrogant and rude you are being? This is not how a normal person describes a culture.
Not all of it. Just the "god told us so" part. Talking to imaginary creatures - NOT a pinnacle of mental health.
This is another example of the kind of arrogance you have shown that borders on the ridiculous. You are basing your assessment of an entire culture's mental health on a false premise and a distorted view of actuality. As can be shown by your actions and your words, you are in no position to call anyone's mental health into question, let alone an entire culture's.
Now, it took me couple of years to master it, but we can safely say that I know all there is to know about humility.
Not from where I stand. You consider yourself to be superior to entire groups of people. That is not humility.
I prefer the term - "violently dislike". It is a jedi th
with 19th-century ways that include a deep-rooted suspicion of vaccination
Nowhere does that imply that they don't get vaccinations. They have a suspicion of art too, but that doesn't mean that they don't have it.
See... there is this thing called sarcasm. Only it is not really A THING... you can't take in your hand or anything... it is more like a concept...
I was pointing out that your impressions of their culture are fantastically ignorant by ignoring your sarcasm. Maybe I should have just spelled it out: You are ignorant of their culture.
Yeah... pity their highly developed Amish powers do diddly-squat when it comes to those god's littlest things, which he, in his wisdom, had put upon this Earth.
This statement clearly illustrates your ignorance. The fact that they choose to live a dedicated faith-based lifestyle absolutely does not mean that they are oblivious to the reality of germs or anything else about the modern world.
Don't get me wrong... I have ABSOLUTELY nothing against them or any other group of religious fanatics making themselves extinct by isolating their gene pool and forgoing such blasphemous technologies as vaccination or say... blood transfusion (gotta love 'em Jehovah's witnesses). Should they start to sacrifice their firstborns I would applaud with delight at their devotion to their neurosis.
If you have nothing against them, then why do you denigrate their culture? There are ways that you can say that you do not share their beliefs without resorting to bigotry. The Amish do not consider technology blasphemous, and it's highly unlikely that they are going to start killing their children. Saying these highly inflammatory things and calling a people's culture a neurosis is arrogant and uninformed.
One of the largest tenets of their belief system is humility. You would do yourself well to actually learn something from them.
But I have this little problem with those germs and viruses that inhabit them refusing to stick only to "the god's favorite people". Instead, they have this bad habit of lingering around, breeding, mutating, infecting other people... People who may be vaccinated against the original flavor of the germ but not to the New Improved Mutated VersionTM intended only for god's special people.
Now you've gone from intolerance to outright hatred. First, you are indicating that these people won't get medical attention, when it's clear from that article that they do. Then you are outright blaming them for an epidemic that hasn't happened yet. Furthermore, you are throwing out any scientific understanding of epidemics and concluding that a people that chooses to stay isolated is going to be the cause of the downfall of humanity when probably the opposite is true. All the while you are doing everything you possibly can to deride their culture for your own edification. These are not the actions of someone reasonable. These are the actions of a person who is openly hostile towards cultural differences.
So you see... When it comes to infective diseases - I can't just "leave them alone".
Then you should be helping them instead of reveling in your own misplaced superiority. If you were a person that actually cared about this, you would be volunteering with the Red Cross and other organizations to go out to these areas and make sure that Amish children are vaccinated. The only reason you "care" about this is so that you can announce your ascendancy over a culture that you consider backwards. What you are doing is not productive, considerate, or healthy. It simply promotes fear and ill will.
You are being incredibly disdainful, intolerant, rude, and immature. You are doing nothing to foster goodwill between yourself and anyone else, and you are not helping whatever cause you think it is that you represent. You are a bigoted fundamentalist that needs to learn how to live in society.
A perfect disease monkey to be placed among a bunch of non-vaccinated children, wouldn't you say?
What makes you think they are unvaccinated?
Right. Their Christian (as in Bible, virgin birth and zombie Jesus) god lives underneath a mushroom in the forest.
It's been a while since I checked, but I'm pretty sure that that isn't any more accurate than saying that atheists worship Athe.
They believe buttons and colorful shirts to be evil for fucks sake!
Of course, blah, blah, vitriol, hatred, ethnocentrism, blah, blah.
I find it deplorable that you choose to target your wrath at the Amish - a group that just wants to be left alone to live as they please.
Grow up.
Symantec, which is contributing its malware-analysis expertise to the group, believes there are two main versions of Conflicker, "Flavor A" and "Flavor B,"
The flavors were determined using LOLCATS. True story.
Thankfully, my wife speaks microbiology, specifically related to immunology, rather well. We discussed the various vaccines they wanted to give, and settled on giving 3 (one oral, two intravenous) out of the 5 at our last visit. The remaining two will be given next week -- more than two weeks after the first three.
Our doctor praised our decision, saying, "I'm told it's safe, all the studies suggest it's safe, but my common sense tells me you're making a responsible decision here."
The vaccines are grouped mainly for convenience anyway.
The child with polio, "has an immune deficiency that makes her unable to rid her body of the virus, even with vaccination".
Also, last time I checked, the Amish deity did not take up residence in the sky.
You know what's really going to make the your head asplode?
...and, yes, they provide the link to the source code.
Sony TVs come with a printed version of the GPL and LGPL!
(also the license statements for OpenSSL, FreeType2, Expat, Curl, Popt, and libjpeg)
They're evil, but they're in compliance with the GPL.
They're evil, but they're in compliance with the GPL.
They're evil, but they're in compilance with the GPL.
*BOOM*
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Microsoft... declined to comment beyond a statement saying: "We are aware of the situation and it is a tragic case."
Wow, déjà vu. That's the same thing they said when Vista was released.