I am supposed to guess that you are actually a small business owner... how exactly? you stated specifically that you are a mechanical engineer and made no mention of any other roles. my bad?
in any case, your comments are demonstrating a lack of perspective. a vast majority of small business owners are *not* engineers, and a vast majority of engineers are *not* small business owners.
if you come from a technical background and have prior experience with programming, then of course it can make sense for you to use those existing skills in your small business. this is not the case for most business owners, and it does not apply to the OP (unless he also just expects us to know that as a small business owner, he's probably an engineer).
for the overwhelming majority of folks who have programming experience and a non technical background (the OP describes himself as "non-techie"), it makes absolutely no sense to spend time their valuable time learning to program a computer.
why do you assume your personal experience is meaningful here?
most small business owners stay out of programming not because they are morons who couldn't do it, but because their time is one of the most valuable resources the business has. spending it doing things that can be done better and in less time by an expert is probably a mistake, unless hiring the expert costs a fortune. hiring a programmer does not cost a fortune.
the world you come from and the world of a small business owner are quite different.
if the OP was asking how to learn some basic PC maintenance, save on a couple easy repair calls, maybe even set up a simple LAN, sure. but he is asking about how to do things that are well beyond the skill level of a "handy guy". if he is unable to distinguish between the "simple fix, save a buck" stuff and the "you probably suck if you haven't been doing this every day for 10 years, and maybe even then" stuff... well all the more reason to discourage him from going further.
The variations in user interface are a growth pain, one that Windows Mobile never became popular enough to outgrow. With the momentum behind Android, it seems possible if not likely that some interface (or a set of elements) will emerge as clearly superior and only phones that implement that interface will sell well. Google has stated that the UI is their main focus in the next version of Android, so it seems they are aware of the issue and doing what they can to improve it. Sure, carriers will always want to mess with things and with so many manufacturers, at least one of them is going to give in to them. Maybe this will be tamed, maybe not. Strangely, Verizon seems to be taking a very hands off approach with their Android phones for now. They used to be known for trying to turn every phone into the same crappy interface, but my new Droid Incredible has very little software that didn't come from HTC and it's completely unobtrusive, as in you have to go looking to find it.
Right now is certainly an interesting time if you are in to trying new things on your phone. There are dozens of home screen interfaces, keyboards/input methods, widgets, etc to play with. Some are innovative, some are duds. With an open system, anyone can try any idea they have, the cream is allowed to rise. It just takes some time and the interest of innovative developers, something Android seems to have in spades. Windows Mobile never attracted this kind of work, and the iPhone platform alienates those who are interested in such things since the interface is locked down. The creative energy behind Android is really fun to watch, I can't wait to see where they are in a year or two.
That would make a lot more sense if greylisting actually meant what you think it does. Greylisting has nothing to do with banning sources that you haven't sent messages to, or actually banning anything at all. Greylisting is simply giving a temp fail to a host you haven't seen before, and then allowing them as normal when (if) they retry. All this happens at the SMTP level and is completely automatic, so unlike NAT it does not require any specific configuration for individual entities.
Can I just ask what "Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4" is supposed to mean? I'm quite familiar with both technologies and can't figure out what this is trying to say. Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees?
I understand what you are saying, and if it adds anything let me say that I own a Mac as well for similar reasons. However, you and I are not typical Apple users, if the people I have met and the comments I have read are any indicator.
I've never seen an Apple advertisement that mentions Macs being a nice Unix workstation, availability of optimized OS X builds of OSS, or frankly any of the things that lead me to use a Mac.
These are great benefits of the platform and clearly they drive some fraction of sales on their own merit, but they are simply not part of Apple's message to consumers. Apple is not selling awesome Unix boxes, they are selling an experience that will make you different. I find it very unappealing, and I find dealing with the people attracted by their marketing hype equally unpleasant.
But it's selling better than any other iPhone (I don't know why, to be honest, but it is).
I am not trying to troll, just an observation and let me be quick to say my thoughts are based on the numbers as I have found them in various articles, could be off a little or a lot.
While the iPhone 4 sold better than any previous iPhone, it also had the highest percentage of purchases coming from existing iPhone users. Despite good sales, the platform did not add a huge amount of new users to the iPhone platform. I've seen estimates that from 70 to 75% of sales were to existing users.
At the same time, we have Android adding new users at an incredible rate, 160,000 per day and growing fast is the last statistic Google released. This means even using aggressive numbers, Android added more new users to it's platform during the first three days of iPhone sales than iPhone added. It continues to outpace the iPhone in growth, both in number of users and in mobile web usage.
As I said, I could be getting it all wrong here, but it seems like the iPhone platform is actually losing market share despite the relative success of the iPhone 4. I suppose in a year or two I'll be able to see if this is true or not. And yes of course I am biased.. I really don't care if iPhone grows, shrinks or whatever, I just love to see the growth in Android because I really enjoy the platform, and in some ways it seems competition with Apple is the only way to sustain that.
You're destined for the troll box, but I think there is truth behind your words, you just presented it in a confrontational way.
I don't think Apple's products are deliberately set at a premium to limit sales to a small number of people. I think they are deliberately set at a premium to make money, nothing more. It is amusing to see Apple fans yammering on about how profitable Apple is... as if they don't realize where those profits came from? "Hey I gave a bunch of my money to this company! They have a *ton* of money!" How that becomes a point of personal pride, I'm not sure.
Anyway, it's pretty clear that Apple gets more money from it's customers than their competitors do, and they've pulled this off for quite a long time. This is something that takes skill, and it's one of the few things I respect about the company. They really have mastered the "experience" sell. From the marketing campaigns to the highly trained employees in carefully planned retail stores, Apple makes people feel special for doing something very ordinary, and turns that feeling into profit.
You're right on target about the "elitist club" mentality that is apparent from many owners. Pretty silly considering this sense of "I'm different" comes from buying a device sold by the millions and available at Walmart, but this makes it all the more impressive that Apple can pull it off.
I think you are also correct in the general sense that in many cases, people would not want the same product (at least not at the same price) if it didn't have the Apple logo on it. It's not about the logo, it's about the "experience", which is really what Apple is selling. The hardware is secondary, so long as Apple doesn't screw it up so badly that it interferes with the "experience". They've refined this sales method to the point where most other companies look cheesy if they even try to compete for that effect.
Personally, I think it's the modern day equivalent of snake oil, but I'm sure snake oil satisfied some portion of those who bought it. The snake oil salesmen probably made more profits than those who just sold medicine as medicine too.
Well.. I'll probably be joining you in troll land soon enough:)
If he was not allowed to give a critical element of the statistic, he should simply not have used that point at all. instead, he tried to use half of a statistic to imply something that it doesn't actually mean. shady business.
i think you're right. for every one person that reports an issue like this, there are X more that don't take the time for whatever reason. whether X is 2 or 200 or 2000 is pretty difficult to say. since this problem is more of an annoyance than a crippling issue, i'd suspect X is pretty high here.
honestly i think the return rate is low because what people want is not some other phone, they want an iphone 4 that works. most were probably hoping that Apple could make that happen. I'm more interested in the return rate going forward, now that Apple has explained that they won't be fixing it.
go to *any* engineer who works with RF. say to him "what do you think about putting our antenna where a user cannot avoid having their hand come into direct contact with it during regular use". see what he says about the idea.
there is simply no way this took them completely by surprise. they probably figured it wasn't that big of a deal, and they may even be right about that, but I don't believe for a second this wasn't considered as a potential issue long before the first prototype was built.
FWIW, my Samsung Blackjack had a sticker on it suggesting that reception would be impaired if you gripped it in a particular portion of the top section. I don't remember the exact wording, and never in the life of the phone worried about it or noticed any problems, but I do recall that sticker.
for the most part i agree its pointless, but the troll/haters do give you some measure on the "word on the street". a couple years ago, the tone was fairly pro Apple here and on some other sites I frequent. The Apple haters were the oddballs. Now, it seems the oddballs are the folks defending Apple, and the haters have become a majority. It's a trend that seems to be growing over the past year and seems to be ever increasing.
So.. I do see some value in all this as a metric on Apple's place in the hearts of my fellow nerds. It's often said (especially by Apple folks) that nerds don't matter in the market and nobody cares what we think in the "real world". This is probably a good chance to see how true that is.. we have a clear trend on the forums and tech discussion sites, will it be mirrored in the world of retail sales, or will it make no difference? Time will tell.
Personally I'm not sure. A lot of people go to their friendly local nerd for advice on what phone or computer to buy, so I can see potential for a noticeable effect. On the other hand, often people buy things because it's cool or because they like the ads.
Anyway, I've been kind of rambling here, point is I do find the general trends in noise here interesting, if not the individual comments.
you used the term "polished" three times. this, and other ambiguous terms like "user experience" seem common in posts extolling the virtues of the Apple. what does "polished" mean? what is the value of such a thing? can you provide any specific example of how, for instance, the polish allows you to do X on an Apple product faster/easier/better/? than on an Android phone or Windows desktop?
"Apple buyers don't take any notice of negative publicity for Apple products."
Actually, some buyers do. Not the hardcore fanboy types, but my gf's parents saw a segment on the local news about the iphone 4 problems and have decided to look at Android phones rather than blindly upgrading their current iThings to the latest model. They may still get an Apple phone, but they would not have even considered alternatives if it weren't for the issues.
I was surprised that there was any general media coverage of the problems with the iPhone 4. Between this and all the coverage of the goof up with the wireless connection at the announcement, they haven't been looking good in the mainstream news. I don't know if this will have any noticeable effect on sales, or if there is any way to know anyway.
I think your fondness of the iPhone has caused you to miss the point I am trying to make, I'll reiterate it, try to hear this with an open mind. I'm not trying to insult your phone or it's manufacturer, I'm just observing a clear market trend.
Yes, 25% of the people who bought an iPhone 4 at release choice the device over another platform.
However (and this is the important part), this is a lower percentage of new users than we saw on every preceding iPhone release. It follows a downward trend from the 3, to the 3gs, to the 4. There could be many reasons for this, but saturation of the customer base is a very likely contributor if not the primary cause. Other contributors could be that many 2 year contracts on existing iphones were coming due, so the number of renewals was inflated.
Whatever the reason, we see that the Android platform is adding new users at a rate *every single day* that exceeds the rate the Apple platform saw during iPhone 4's opening weekend. Not only this, but the rate at which new users are coming to Android is increasing dramatically with each passing month.
This shows that there are many potential purchasers of smartphones in the world, and Android is drawing in more of them than the iPhone is. Even with the excitement surrounding the new iPhone 4, Android pulls in more new users.
Android will soon have more users than the iPhone does unless something is done to change the current trend. One of the easiest ways to add new users to the iPhone platform is to make it available to more people.
This is why I believe a Verizon iPhone is more likely than ever before. It makes more commercial sense than it did in the past, and it seems the only hope Apple has of adding a large number of new users. It may be that Apple has no interest in adding as many users as Android is adding, I don't know.
i'm not sure what your point is, or if there is one.
160,000 human beings that did not own an android device yesterday do own one today. if I am an app developer, or an advertiser, or a content provider, that's really all I care about, no?
Slashdot Mirror
I'm a mechanical engineer
I am supposed to guess that you are actually a small business owner... how exactly? you stated specifically that you are a mechanical engineer and made no mention of any other roles. my bad?
in any case, your comments are demonstrating a lack of perspective. a vast majority of small business owners are *not* engineers, and a vast majority of engineers are *not* small business owners.
if you come from a technical background and have prior experience with programming, then of course it can make sense for you to use those existing skills in your small business. this is not the case for most business owners, and it does not apply to the OP (unless he also just expects us to know that as a small business owner, he's probably an engineer).
for the overwhelming majority of folks who have programming experience and a non technical background (the OP describes himself as "non-techie"), it makes absolutely no sense to spend time their valuable time learning to program a computer.
why do you assume your personal experience is meaningful here?
most small business owners stay out of programming not because they are morons who couldn't do it, but because their time is one of the most valuable resources the business has. spending it doing things that can be done better and in less time by an expert is probably a mistake, unless hiring the expert costs a fortune. hiring a programmer does not cost a fortune.
the world you come from and the world of a small business owner are quite different.
if the OP was asking how to learn some basic PC maintenance, save on a couple easy repair calls, maybe even set up a simple LAN, sure. but he is asking about how to do things that are well beyond the skill level of a "handy guy". if he is unable to distinguish between the "simple fix, save a buck" stuff and the "you probably suck if you haven't been doing this every day for 10 years, and maybe even then" stuff... well all the more reason to discourage him from going further.
The variations in user interface are a growth pain, one that Windows Mobile never became popular enough to outgrow. With the momentum behind Android, it seems possible if not likely that some interface (or a set of elements) will emerge as clearly superior and only phones that implement that interface will sell well. Google has stated that the UI is their main focus in the next version of Android, so it seems they are aware of the issue and doing what they can to improve it. Sure, carriers will always want to mess with things and with so many manufacturers, at least one of them is going to give in to them. Maybe this will be tamed, maybe not. Strangely, Verizon seems to be taking a very hands off approach with their Android phones for now. They used to be known for trying to turn every phone into the same crappy interface, but my new Droid Incredible has very little software that didn't come from HTC and it's completely unobtrusive, as in you have to go looking to find it.
Right now is certainly an interesting time if you are in to trying new things on your phone. There are dozens of home screen interfaces, keyboards/input methods, widgets, etc to play with. Some are innovative, some are duds. With an open system, anyone can try any idea they have, the cream is allowed to rise. It just takes some time and the interest of innovative developers, something Android seems to have in spades. Windows Mobile never attracted this kind of work, and the iPhone platform alienates those who are interested in such things since the interface is locked down. The creative energy behind Android is really fun to watch, I can't wait to see where they are in a year or two.
That would make a lot more sense if greylisting actually meant what you think it does. Greylisting has nothing to do with banning sources that you haven't sent messages to, or actually banning anything at all. Greylisting is simply giving a temp fail to a host you haven't seen before, and then allowing them as normal when (if) they retry. All this happens at the SMTP level and is completely automatic, so unlike NAT it does not require any specific configuration for individual entities.
still not seeing the analogy
Can I just ask what "Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4" is supposed to mean? I'm quite familiar with both technologies and can't figure out what this is trying to say. Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees?
I understand what you are saying, and if it adds anything let me say that I own a Mac as well for similar reasons. However, you and I are not typical Apple users, if the people I have met and the comments I have read are any indicator.
I've never seen an Apple advertisement that mentions Macs being a nice Unix workstation, availability of optimized OS X builds of OSS, or frankly any of the things that lead me to use a Mac.
These are great benefits of the platform and clearly they drive some fraction of sales on their own merit, but they are simply not part of Apple's message to consumers. Apple is not selling awesome Unix boxes, they are selling an experience that will make you different. I find it very unappealing, and I find dealing with the people attracted by their marketing hype equally unpleasant.
"...Not perfect..."
Fandroid bastard!
But it's selling better than any other iPhone (I don't know why, to be honest, but it is).
I am not trying to troll, just an observation and let me be quick to say my thoughts are based on the numbers as I have found them in various articles, could be off a little or a lot.
While the iPhone 4 sold better than any previous iPhone, it also had the highest percentage of purchases coming from existing iPhone users. Despite good sales, the platform did not add a huge amount of new users to the iPhone platform. I've seen estimates that from 70 to 75% of sales were to existing users.
At the same time, we have Android adding new users at an incredible rate, 160,000 per day and growing fast is the last statistic Google released. This means even using aggressive numbers, Android added more new users to it's platform during the first three days of iPhone sales than iPhone added. It continues to outpace the iPhone in growth, both in number of users and in mobile web usage.
As I said, I could be getting it all wrong here, but it seems like the iPhone platform is actually losing market share despite the relative success of the iPhone 4. I suppose in a year or two I'll be able to see if this is true or not. And yes of course I am biased.. I really don't care if iPhone grows, shrinks or whatever, I just love to see the growth in Android because I really enjoy the platform, and in some ways it seems competition with Apple is the only way to sustain that.
You're destined for the troll box, but I think there is truth behind your words, you just presented it in a confrontational way.
I don't think Apple's products are deliberately set at a premium to limit sales to a small number of people. I think they are deliberately set at a premium to make money, nothing more. It is amusing to see Apple fans yammering on about how profitable Apple is... as if they don't realize where those profits came from? "Hey I gave a bunch of my money to this company! They have a *ton* of money!" How that becomes a point of personal pride, I'm not sure.
Anyway, it's pretty clear that Apple gets more money from it's customers than their competitors do, and they've pulled this off for quite a long time. This is something that takes skill, and it's one of the few things I respect about the company. They really have mastered the "experience" sell. From the marketing campaigns to the highly trained employees in carefully planned retail stores, Apple makes people feel special for doing something very ordinary, and turns that feeling into profit.
You're right on target about the "elitist club" mentality that is apparent from many owners. Pretty silly considering this sense of "I'm different" comes from buying a device sold by the millions and available at Walmart, but this makes it all the more impressive that Apple can pull it off.
I think you are also correct in the general sense that in many cases, people would not want the same product (at least not at the same price) if it didn't have the Apple logo on it. It's not about the logo, it's about the "experience", which is really what Apple is selling. The hardware is secondary, so long as Apple doesn't screw it up so badly that it interferes with the "experience". They've refined this sales method to the point where most other companies look cheesy if they even try to compete for that effect.
Personally, I think it's the modern day equivalent of snake oil, but I'm sure snake oil satisfied some portion of those who bought it. The snake oil salesmen probably made more profits than those who just sold medicine as medicine too.
Well.. I'll probably be joining you in troll land soon enough :)
If he was not allowed to give a critical element of the statistic, he should simply not have used that point at all.
instead, he tried to use half of a statistic to imply something that it doesn't actually mean.
shady business.
maybe you missed this?
http://smallbusiness.aol.com/2010/07/06/the-iphone-is-ruining-my-life/
not such a small problem for the interviewed,
i think you're right. for every one person that reports an issue like this, there are X more that don't take the time for whatever reason. whether X is 2 or 200 or 2000 is pretty difficult to say. since this problem is more of an annoyance than a crippling issue, i'd suspect X is pretty high here.
honestly i think the return rate is low because what people want is not some other phone, they want an iphone 4 that works.
most were probably hoping that Apple could make that happen. I'm more interested in the return rate going forward, now that Apple has explained that they won't be fixing it.
go to *any* engineer who works with RF. say to him "what do you think about putting our antenna where a user cannot avoid having their hand come into direct contact with it during regular use". see what he says about the idea.
there is simply no way this took them completely by surprise. they probably figured it wasn't that big of a deal, and they may even be right about that, but I don't believe for a second this wasn't considered as a potential issue long before the first prototype was built.
FWIW, my Samsung Blackjack had a sticker on it suggesting that reception would be impaired if you gripped it in a particular portion of the top section. I don't remember the exact wording, and never in the life of the phone worried about it or noticed any problems, but I do recall that sticker.
LOL
for the most part i agree its pointless, but the troll/haters do give you some measure on the "word on the street". a couple years ago, the tone was fairly pro Apple here and on some other sites I frequent. The Apple haters were the oddballs. Now, it seems the oddballs are the folks defending Apple, and the haters have become a majority. It's a trend that seems to be growing over the past year and seems to be ever increasing.
So.. I do see some value in all this as a metric on Apple's place in the hearts of my fellow nerds. It's often said (especially by Apple folks) that nerds don't matter in the market and nobody cares what we think in the "real world". This is probably a good chance to see how true that is.. we have a clear trend on the forums and tech discussion sites, will it be mirrored in the world of retail sales, or will it make no difference? Time will tell.
Personally I'm not sure. A lot of people go to their friendly local nerd for advice on what phone or computer to buy, so I can see potential for a noticeable effect. On the other hand, often people buy things because it's cool or because they like the ads.
Anyway, I've been kind of rambling here, point is I do find the general trends in noise here interesting, if not the individual comments.
you used the term "polished" three times. this, and other ambiguous terms like "user experience" seem common in posts extolling the virtues of the Apple. what does "polished" mean? what is the value of such a thing?
can you provide any specific example of how, for instance, the polish allows you to do X on an Apple product faster/easier/better/? than on an Android phone or Windows desktop?
"Apple buyers don't take any notice of negative publicity for Apple products."
Actually, some buyers do. Not the hardcore fanboy types, but my gf's parents saw a segment on the local news about the iphone 4 problems and have decided to look at Android phones rather than blindly upgrading their current iThings to the latest model. They may still get an Apple phone, but they would not have even considered alternatives if it weren't for the issues.
I was surprised that there was any general media coverage of the problems with the iPhone 4. Between this and all the coverage of the goof up with the wireless connection at the announcement, they haven't been looking good in the mainstream news. I don't know if this will have any noticeable effect on sales, or if there is any way to know anyway.
if i had even one bar in my basement bong shelter, I'd be set.
isn't Android already vastly superior in all of these areas? yet the iPhone has more apps? maybe just because it's been around longer, not sure.
I think your fondness of the iPhone has caused you to miss the point I am trying to make, I'll reiterate it, try to hear this with an open mind. I'm not trying to insult your phone or it's manufacturer, I'm just observing a clear market trend.
Yes, 25% of the people who bought an iPhone 4 at release choice the device over another platform.
However (and this is the important part), this is a lower percentage of new users than we saw on every preceding iPhone release. It follows a downward trend from the 3, to the 3gs, to the 4. There could be many reasons for this, but saturation of the customer base is a very likely contributor if not the primary cause. Other contributors could be that many 2 year contracts on existing iphones were coming due, so the number of renewals was inflated.
Whatever the reason, we see that the Android platform is adding new users at a rate *every single day* that exceeds the rate the Apple platform saw during iPhone 4's opening weekend. Not only this, but the rate at which new users are coming to Android is increasing dramatically with each passing month.
This shows that there are many potential purchasers of smartphones in the world, and Android is drawing in more of them than the iPhone is. Even with the excitement surrounding the new iPhone 4, Android pulls in more new users.
Android will soon have more users than the iPhone does unless something is done to change the current trend. One of the easiest ways to add new users to the iPhone platform is to make it available to more people.
This is why I believe a Verizon iPhone is more likely than ever before. It makes more commercial sense than it did in the past, and it seems the only hope Apple has of adding a large number of new users. It may be that Apple has no interest in adding as many users as Android is adding, I don't know.
how exactly is the fact that 160,000 new android devices are registering with google every day deceptive?
they all run the same os. I can write a single app that runs on every one of them.
i think you might misunderstand exactly what Android is, and what it means to Apple's market.
i'm not sure what your point is, or if there is one.
160,000 human beings that did not own an android device yesterday do own one today. if I am an app developer, or an advertiser, or a content provider, that's really all I care about, no?