In a world where there are still installations running WordStar under CP/M (there are) you will never see V4 go away. Not in your lifetime, not in your kids lifetime, not in their kids lifetime.
"Could you please put down the nuclear power pom poms for just a minute and enter the real world where this is a serious disaster having a serious effect on a first-world country?"
Hey! Lets's play "spot the nuclear industry astroturfer". Who wants to go first?
If the radiation halflife can be "measured in hours" then why is there radioactive food in singapore imported from Japan? And why is the sea radioactive 30km off the coast there? It should be gone by now... unless... it's fallout.
And of course fukushima isn't over yet. They began evacuating a 120km radius around the plant on a "voluntary" basis.
And admitted there was "probably" a reactor breech.
In "reel" five of the BBC movie about the Chernobyl sarcoghogus they show the chromosomes of one of the affected people. They are badly distorted.
Many animals are "sorted" by karyotype, where you examine the chromosomes. JJ Scheel did this with frogs and fish in the 50s and it's fairly common no so we've seen lots of chromosomes.
Some of the chromosomes in the Chernobyl victims are distorted others are so malformed they're not even recognizable as chromosomes. These people absolutely will get cancer.
Once again Tom Starck writes about something he was tangentially aware of and gets it wrong. I could make a career of following you around and correcting you Thom and to one extent I have. We meet again.
The way the domain thing played out, Network Solutions was directed by the NSF to begin charging as the NSF was sick of subsidizing domain squatters who were registering gazillions of names after Josh Quittners article in Wired about the domain gold rush (that didn't really exist).
The discussion broke of on domain-policy@internic.net, was moved to matt marnel's newdom list, then wessons (I think) newdom list, then the list I ran at newdom.com at which point ISOC had glommed onto IANA and said "we're in charge now" and the thin line that separates icann today from isoc stems from this (which in turn stems from a chance meeting at an OECD workshop in Ottawa between Don Heath, ISOC, Bob Shaw, ITU and Albert Tramposch WIPO) crating an institutional legacy of I* orgnizations that make huge amounts of money (check the from 990's) and do exactly nothing.
But, back in the day Postel and Manning had already published their desire to create 300 new tlds with 150 right away, and encouraged people to deploy servers and code, which poeple did. There were emails, which IANA kept on file and are still around today and there were phone calls to Jon and meetings with Bill.
As you can probably tell from looking today there are no new tlds, the entire process got captured by trademark types and bureaucrats. big business wanted no new tlds and paid well to make sure that's what happened. Thom's spin is just that. Anybody who was involved knows this well, and checking your iahc mail every couple of days isn't quite the same thing. .
"And, of course, DNS was never envisioned as something masses of end users would deal with. Something like Google is more in line with the original thinking."
Define "user".
BIND got its start when Brian Reid a the Digitial Western Research Center in Palo Alto (DECWRL) paid Paul Vixie to take the Berkely b-tree code and make it into a "professional product" which he did.
In 1997 Brian said to me "I feel like a dork paying for my domain names but I don't know what to do about it".
"He hacked people's servers (including some belonging to the DOD) and went to jail for it. When I pointed out that my non-hacked DNS servers couldn't see the Alternic domains, he hacked those too."
Rubbish. He just exploited a bug in BIND where it believed anythng anyone told it. The trick was, he sent you mail. If you sent him mail back your system would do an mx record lookip for alternic.net, and his system would return not only the mx you asked for but an A record for internic.net (pointing to alternic.net) which bind cheerfully accepted. this is about the time Bernstein either began writing or released djbdns which DID'NT do this, it would only trust answers about internic.net from internic.net, not anybody that said they were or felt like it.
So he didn't hack any body's servers. you trusted information you got from the from the wrong place due to a well known bug in bind.
the great irony in all this is nobody will scream about kashpureff more than, say, vixie, but it was he that did the same thing when he convinced postel to tell the other roots to slave from IANA and not NSI (which magaziner ordered jon to undo real quick, and he did)
those were weird days but you have to keep in mind this never prevented anyone from say checking their mail on yahoo. the net is actually remarkably resiliant.
The Internet is a collection of smaller networks with addressing assigned from a central authority to prevent address conflicts.
Note, that was referring to IP address assignments, but DNS is a natural extension of that."
Sure, lets bet the network and billions of dollars on this idea. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, what's that you say, an Iranian cleric doesn't like the domain name you picked? sorry, bzzzzzt. or what's that? A fijian company has a trademark on something and a company in san jose can't use that domain name even though it's free because of prior ip rights? bzzzzzzzt, you lose gain.
used to be, kids, before "they" were in charge, you'd publish the name and begin using it. look at uucp maps, or usenet newsgroup names or any of the other legacy network lists of names. there's nothing special about dns that needs a (purportedly) "open and transparent" organization using a "multi stakeholder model" (that the fcc recently flat out said just doesn't work and won't use it) to administer names of nodes on the work.
ending on a joke: what wold happen to the network if a nuke took out ICANN and all it's staffers?
no, in an n-way mesh each node can verify against each other. in the degenerate case where they're all wrong, you'll know pretty fast, trust me. btdt. works fine.
"and we network old-timers have never forgiven you AOL'ers for ruining our network." Amen!
Feh. I still haven't forgiven the tcp/ip assholes from wrecking the nice uucp administration and routes we'd got. It just worked (really) and nobody had to pay $x/yr to so-and-so to make it work. We made it work please and thank you very much.
Also, " If there were multiple "someone"s, the net would fragment, and that's inconvenient." - Ah! Fear, uncertainty and doubt.
This is actually factually incorrect, in the day there were a dozen root server networks, not just the legacy US government one. Alternic was just the first. Point is though, if they're out of sync they're completely useless so saying "if could fragment" is like saying "that server could go down". Uh, yeah, that's a bad thing and needs to be fixed before it's usable.
And in fact the only time the net ever had a collision in TLD-space was when ICANN gave.biz to somebody else, despite it being run 6 years continually and promoted actively by somebody else giving us the irony that the organization charged with keeping the dns "stable" has been the only destabilizing force in the history of dns. You can make up all the reasons why the current.biz poeple should have it, but traditionally when you deploy something on the net it pretty much stays there, it's unusual to some have somebody come along and go "yeah, real nice all this you built here. we're giving it to somebody else" and any excuse the current owners have is imo just bullshit rationalization.
But then this is an industry based on theft, keep in mind Sun was started by the commission of a federal crime when a bunch of gear was pilfered from stanford, and there's always the "gosh what happened to the core servers" in the pre-icann days. So I'm not surprised, but it all does make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
Proof positive that Darth Cerf really belongs in space.
Work is going on on v7, but we're not letting those v6 assholes that fucked everything up near it. One day you'll buy a device and it'll just work and it won't be v4 or v6.
First to market wins. Oh and by "to market" I mean "works WITH the current network".
Kodachrome is the one that starts with a "K" right? And Ektachrome starts with an "E" ? Yeah I'm sure. The Ektachrome was worse, to be sure, but I'm not seeing that flawless color permanence. These are from slides from the 60s and 70s. Maybe they're just too old.
Who knew you'd need to use dageurreotypes at expo '67?
"NOTHING comes anywhere near Kodachrome for permanence of the finished image. 50 year old Kodachrome slides often look just as good today, even without special storage conditions."
Lemme check. (pulls slide out of box). Kodachrome? Check. Oh, purple shift? Check. Bleh.
The counter argument is those v6 only networks just *might* want to talk to things like, oh, paypal, cracked.com and ten gazillion other v4 only sites. So they will have v4 connectivity - or else they really can't see most of the net.
So I wouldn't worry about having a v4 only network.
And, the newest fantasies for making v6 interoperate really require v4 addresses, which suddenly become very valuable. This is another reason ARIN wants them back.
Also, have a look at the form 990s for the arin poeple. they make one hell of a lot of money... for doing what exacly?
The obvious solution of course, is cooperation. Take network nnn. for example where nnn is the first octet of an non-swamp space ip. everybody in nnn cooperates, deployes as one big network and only they need to rout within nnn. Everybody else just goes "oh, nnn. is over there throw the packet that way" and the global routing table shrinks for each value of nnn that does this.
this is easier for some values of nnn. than others:-)
The other problem with DNSSEC is, once you sign your domain the government can assign the domain to somebody else via UDRP, but without your key signing, it aint gonna work. The trade mark guys are gonna freak out when they figure this out.
"Join the Internet Society, ICANN, and your national domain registrar if you want to make difference."
Oh please. It was the ISOC that helped hand the domain name system to the government. In 1997 Bob Shaw, ITU, Albert Tramposch WIPO and Don Heath ISOC met at an OECD meeting. They cooked up a plan that became IAHC then ICANN. The alternative was an industry consortium that would operate the DNS the way the Internet itself operates - free of a US government regualatory authority.
It was Steve Wolff that liberated the Internet itself from DARPA. He told me he didn't move the DNS because he just plain forgot, not thinking it was important.
ISOC has a vested interest in the ICANN/domain ecosystem. The IETF insists ICANN is the root authority, ICANN delegated.ORG to PIR, operated by ISOC, the ISOC funds the IETF.
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In a world where there are still installations running WordStar under CP/M (there are) you will never see V4 go away. Not in your lifetime, not in your kids lifetime, not in their kids lifetime.
"NAT or no NAT, IPv4 is no longer viable for widespread use."
Of V4, V6 and NAT, then only V4 is viable for widespread use. The others are islands with limited connectivity into the V4 core.
Between v4 and the insanity that is v6, there are still lots of options.
Ok so he rewrote the theory of relativity. Where did he write it? Somewhere where we can see?
I know how to integrate. Talk about bait and switch. I wouldn't have clicked on "see a bad integration lesson from a boy and his dog".
"Could you please put down the nuclear power pom poms for just a minute and enter the real world where this is a serious disaster having a serious effect on a first-world country?"
Hey! Lets's play "spot the nuclear industry astroturfer". Who wants to go first?
You know they're here. Somewhere.
If the radiation halflife can be "measured in hours" then why is there radioactive food in singapore imported from Japan? And why is the sea radioactive 30km off the coast there? It should be gone by now ... unless... it's fallout.
And of course fukushima isn't over yet. They began evacuating a 120km radius around the plant on a "voluntary" basis.
And admitted there was "probably" a reactor breech.
In "reel" five of the BBC movie about the Chernobyl sarcoghogus they show the chromosomes of one of the affected people. They are badly distorted.
Many animals are "sorted" by karyotype, where you examine the chromosomes. JJ Scheel did this with frogs and fish in the 50s and it's fairly common no so we've seen lots of chromosomes.
Some of the chromosomes in the Chernobyl victims are distorted others are so malformed they're not even recognizable as chromosomes. These people absolutely will get cancer.
Like.
More fucking foam.
No.
Networking is the usual answer, but you get better luck in an average bar in a hi tech area. Cheaper, too (unless you pull the "press pass" stunt).
Once again Tom Starck writes about something he was tangentially aware of and gets it wrong. I could make a career of following you around and correcting you Thom and to one extent I have. We meet again.
The way the domain thing played out, Network Solutions was directed by the NSF to begin charging as the NSF was sick of subsidizing domain squatters who were registering gazillions of names after Josh Quittners article in Wired about the domain gold rush (that didn't really exist).
The discussion broke of on domain-policy@internic.net, was moved to matt marnel's newdom list, then wessons (I think) newdom list, then the list I ran at newdom.com at which point ISOC had glommed onto IANA and said "we're in charge now" and the thin line that separates icann today from isoc stems from this (which in turn stems from a chance meeting at an OECD workshop in Ottawa between Don Heath, ISOC, Bob Shaw, ITU and Albert Tramposch WIPO) crating an institutional legacy of I* orgnizations that make huge amounts of money (check the from 990's) and do exactly nothing.
But, back in the day Postel and Manning had already published their desire to create 300 new tlds with 150 right away, and encouraged people to deploy servers and code, which poeple did. There were emails, which IANA kept on file and are still around today and there were phone calls to Jon and meetings with Bill.
As you can probably tell from looking today there are no new tlds, the entire process got captured by trademark types and bureaucrats. big business wanted no new tlds and paid well to make sure that's what happened. Thom's spin is just that. Anybody who was involved knows this well, and checking your iahc mail every couple of days isn't quite the same thing. .
"And, of course, DNS was never envisioned as something masses of end users would deal with. Something like Google is more in line with the original thinking."
Define "user".
BIND got its start when Brian Reid a the Digitial Western Research Center in Palo Alto (DECWRL) paid Paul Vixie to take the Berkely b-tree code and make it into a "professional product" which he did.
In 1997 Brian said to me "I feel like a dork paying for my domain names but I don't know what to do about it".
So, it sorta depends on the "user".
"He hacked people's servers (including some belonging to the DOD) and went to jail for it. When I pointed out that my non-hacked DNS servers couldn't see the Alternic domains, he hacked those too."
Rubbish. He just exploited a bug in BIND where it believed anythng anyone told it. The trick was, he sent you mail. If you sent him mail back your system would do an mx record lookip for alternic.net, and his system would return not only the mx you asked for but an A record for internic.net (pointing to alternic.net) which bind cheerfully accepted. this is about the time Bernstein either began writing or released djbdns which DID'NT do this, it would only trust answers about internic.net from internic.net, not anybody that said they were or felt like it.
So he didn't hack any body's servers. you trusted information you got from the from the wrong place due to a well known bug in bind.
the great irony in all this is nobody will scream about kashpureff more than, say, vixie, but it was he that did the same thing when he convinced postel to tell the other roots to slave from IANA and not NSI (which magaziner ordered jon to undo real quick, and he did)
those were weird days but you have to keep in mind this never prevented anyone from say checking their mail on yahoo. the net is actually remarkably resiliant.
"No offense, but you're wrong.
The Internet is a collection of smaller networks with addressing assigned from a central authority to prevent address conflicts.
Note, that was referring to IP address assignments, but DNS is a natural extension of that."
Sure, lets bet the network and billions of dollars on this idea. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, what's that you say, an Iranian cleric doesn't like the domain name you picked? sorry, bzzzzzt. or what's that? A fijian company has a trademark on something and a company in san jose can't use that domain name even though it's free because of prior ip rights? bzzzzzzzt, you lose gain.
used to be, kids, before "they" were in charge, you'd publish the name and begin using it. look at uucp maps, or usenet newsgroup names or any of the other legacy network lists of names. there's nothing special about dns that needs a (purportedly) "open and transparent" organization using a "multi stakeholder model" (that the fcc recently flat out said just doesn't work and won't use it) to administer names of nodes on the work.
ending on a joke: what wold happen to the network if a nuke took out ICANN and all it's staffers?
nothing. seriously.
no, in an n-way mesh each node can verify against each other. in the degenerate case where they're all wrong, you'll know pretty fast, trust me. btdt. works fine.
"and we network old-timers have never forgiven you AOL'ers for ruining our network."
Amen!
Feh. I still haven't forgiven the tcp/ip assholes from wrecking the nice uucp administration and routes we'd got. It just worked (really) and nobody had to pay $x/yr to so-and-so to make it work. We made it work please and thank you very much.
Also, " If there were multiple "someone"s, the net would fragment, and that's inconvenient." - Ah! Fear, uncertainty and doubt.
This is actually factually incorrect, in the day there were a dozen root server networks, not just the legacy US government one. Alternic was just the first. Point is though, if they're out of sync they're completely useless so saying "if could fragment" is like saying "that server could go down". Uh, yeah, that's a bad thing and needs to be fixed before it's usable.
And in fact the only time the net ever had a collision in TLD-space was when ICANN gave .biz to somebody else, despite it being run 6 years continually and promoted actively by somebody else giving us the irony that the organization charged with keeping the dns "stable" has been the only destabilizing force in the history of dns. You can make up all the reasons why the current .biz poeple should have it, but traditionally when you deploy something on the net it pretty much stays there, it's unusual to some have somebody come along and go "yeah, real nice all this you built here. we're giving it to somebody else" and any excuse the current owners have is imo just bullshit rationalization.
But then this is an industry based on theft, keep in mind Sun was started by the commission of a federal crime when a bunch of gear was pilfered from stanford, and there's always the "gosh what happened to the core servers" in the pre-icann days. So I'm not surprised, but it all does make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
Disclaimer: i'm the blond in the pic in TFA.
Proof positive that Darth Cerf really belongs in space.
Work is going on on v7, but we're not letting those v6 assholes that fucked everything up near it. One day you'll buy a device and it'll just work and it won't be v4 or v6.
First to market wins. Oh and by "to market" I mean "works WITH the current network".
Kodachrome is the one that starts with a "K" right? And Ektachrome starts with an "E" ? Yeah I'm sure. The Ektachrome was worse, to be sure, but I'm not seeing that flawless color permanence. These are from slides from the 60s and 70s. Maybe they're just too old.
Who knew you'd need to use dageurreotypes at expo '67?
"NOTHING comes anywhere near Kodachrome for permanence of the finished image. 50 year old Kodachrome slides often look just as good today, even without special storage conditions."
Lemme check. (pulls slide out of box). Kodachrome? Check. Oh, purple shift? Check. Bleh.
Fuck film. Yeah digital.
Yeah. If that half dead hooker in Spain passed out on the sidewalk doesn't care, why should she?
The counter argument is those v6 only networks just *might* want to talk to things like, oh, paypal, cracked.com and ten gazillion other v4 only sites. So they will have v4 connectivity - or else they really can't see most of the net.
So I wouldn't worry about having a v4 only network.
And, the newest fantasies for making v6 interoperate really require v4 addresses, which suddenly become very valuable. This is another reason ARIN wants them back.
Also, have a look at the form 990s for the arin poeple. they make one hell of a lot of money... for doing what exacly?
The obvious solution of course, is cooperation. Take network nnn. for example where nnn is the first octet of an non-swamp space ip. everybody in nnn cooperates, deployes as one big network and only they need to rout within nnn. Everybody else just goes "oh, nnn. is over there throw the packet that way" and the global routing table shrinks for each value of nnn that does this.
this is easier for some values of nnn. than others :-)
and it really hurts the long haul telcos.
You aint alone, bub. Anybody else with an allocation going that far back will have at least, your attitude.
Good thing we reserved, and never used, that multicast space: http://xkcd.com/195/
"Nobody else should ever see them."
*Should* being the operative word.
The other problem with DNSSEC is, once you sign your domain the government can assign the domain to somebody else via UDRP, but without your key signing, it aint gonna work. The trade mark guys are gonna freak out when they figure this out.
"Join the Internet Society, ICANN, and your national domain registrar if you want to make difference."
Oh please. It was the ISOC that helped hand the domain name system to the government. In 1997 Bob Shaw, ITU, Albert Tramposch WIPO and Don Heath ISOC met at an OECD meeting. They cooked up a plan that became IAHC then ICANN. The alternative was an industry consortium that would operate the DNS the way the Internet itself operates - free of a US government regualatory authority.
It was Steve Wolff that liberated the Internet itself from DARPA. He told me he didn't move the DNS because he just plain forgot, not thinking it was important.
ISOC has a vested interest in the ICANN/domain ecosystem. The IETF insists ICANN is the root authority, ICANN delegated .ORG to PIR, operated by ISOC, the ISOC funds the IETF.
This is what you call "a loop".