Just a quick note: If you want the government to quit wasting money, look toward the military. NASA's budget is something like 4% of the military's budget, and because of the secrecy I'm convinced it probably has more pork and corporate welfare.
btw: pure research, like what's being done (in small amounts because of the cutbacks) on the ISS and shuttle, is what's given us little things like "electricity" and "chemistry". Without all those boring little numbers and facts on the periodic table, we wouldn't have thousands of types of plastic, rubber, etc. Pure science is not exciting, and it usually doesn't "pay off", but it's essential, and definitely "useful".
You have good points, but I must point out that he said "hundredths", not "hundredth". So, he's talking about the 2nd decimal place.
As an aside, I know that you can generally only trust about 6-8 decimal places on a 32-bit floating point number. I think you'd have to do some major mojo anyway to even think of trusting 100 decimal places.
You might need to deep-cycle it (yes, Li+ batteries need that from time to time). It's the circuitry that needs to re-learn what the battery's full charge and discharge levels are.
htf did this get moderated Interesting? Friggin flaimbait troll.
In case you are actually the ignorant 12 year old you're acting like: 1) Read some fucking history. 2) Just because you were lucky enough to have been born in the USA doesn't mean you have a right to be here. 3) When was the last time a foreigner harmed you? Try looking at how American businesses are screwing over America so that a few rich people can get richer.
1.25GB? Sounds like you're using 3 of your memory banks. The A7 line should have dual-channel memory capabilities, so you should get a performance boost if you only used the first 2 banks. Something like 10%.
First, the reason I thought it was a troll is because of some of the comments obviously meant to provoke reaction but with bad logic backing them up. I had two examples listed with point-by-point reasons, but I took them out because they were cluttering up the argument. And in a more obvious trollish action: you keep ignoring what people say (so that you can argue that Linux/OSS is better than MSWindows).
This is pointing out that one of the main benefits of Linux over Windows is the fact that it's open. Yes; I would concede the point excpet that I've never disagreed. The issue I took is that you take offense to somebody wanting to use what's familiar rather than learn something better. That's their right, no matter how sub-optimum it is and how much it irks you. Also, you won't listen to the argument that most people don't care to learn about computers, even though your mother-in-law and brother are typical examples (Note: I'm assuming they aren't exceptionally stupid and/or just starting to use computers).
The OS with the more procifient user is more user-friendly, because it helped them be as productive as possible. Whether or not it was easy isn't the whole story. People use computers to be more productive, not just to use them.
But it's more of an issue than you seem to realize. I know plenty of smart and motivated people who know next to nothing about computers, and it's because they spend their time doing other things. I would argue that if you picked two average people, at the end of the year you would have two people with about the same proficiencies and they would both be far lower than you expect. They'd know how to use the default email client, some AIM application, and an Office suite. I'd even say that if the Linux system didn't provide some grunt-point-click-install program ala Lindows (or at least apt instead of rpm), the Windows user will have tried more software at the end of the year.
An OS that fights with its users because it thinks it knows best isn't user-friendly.
And neither is an OS that doesn't chose reasonable defaults and *forces* a user to research every little thing before using it. Some Linux distros are getting much better about that, but the attitude is still around.
I don't have time to do nice quoting and point by point, I need to go to bed. So here goes:
The Desktop/Folder paradigm is user friendly because most people (i.e. anyone not legally retarded) can use it comfortably with little training.
Realizing that you are above average has nothing to do with ego, just facts. Think of a few simple computer questions, maybe even have pictures of HD, RAM, mobo, etc. and have 100 people answer the Qs and ID the pieces. Go to the local Piggly Wiggly to get your true "average citizen". Try realizing that Nascar is the most popular sport in America; where a bunch of poor people watch a bunch of rich people drive around in circles for hours in technology they don't really appreciate. Heck, at least people who watch golf can actually play the sport. And it's not an issue of being able to learn. It's wanting to learn (about computers in particular). I know a lot of smart people who know hardly anything about computers even though they're writing documents all day, and it's because they're not interested. IT fixes their problems, they do what they need/want to, and then they go home and do things they enjoy. A more powerful system that forces them to spend time learning it when they don't want to is not user friendly.
I'm glad you brought up the stick-shift, because I almost did last time. Guess what? In order to learn how to drive, I don't need to learn how to put a car into 2nd, or even 1st, with a stick shift. I can just put the big dumb circle over the big D and hit the gas! Wow! Not only do I not need to know all about gears, carberators, brake lines, etc., I don't even need to know how to drive a manual. The fact that it might be bett
I assume you meant "had come up with it". Most music that sounds good to humans obeys certain rules, and by following those rules anybody *can* come up with identical pieces of music. It's just whoever finds a particular combination first that gets the copyright.
I would argue that it is, in fact, the facts that are being copyrighted (despite the claims and arguments). Why do I think this? Because the companies aren't worried about somebody else getting an exact replica of their database, they're worried about somebody else getting the same *information* as them and becoming a competitor. Also, allowing the copyright of a database *is* allowing copyright of a fact. That Joan lives on Mockingbird Lane is a fact and that she is the wife of John is both a relationship and a fact. Databases are merely aggregations of these kinds of facts and relationships. By copyrighting a database that shows Joan and John are married, they are copyrighting the relationship, the fact; and they would be able to sue anybody else that tried to present the same relationship/fact (especially if the defendant had ever been a customer of the company).
Besides - if you knew how to set up the network card in Linux, it wouldn't've taken you six hours. It would've taken you two seconds. Forcing someone to learn something different does not make Linux innately less "user-friendly". It just makes it "not Windows." They had to learn Windows once, too.
Yum yum, get me some of this troll bait!
His point is that anyone could have set it up under WinXP in two minutes. Only people who feel like wasting hours (easily weeks for someone with no under-the-hood computer skills) of their lives going from newbie status to "I installed my network card" level could set it up under Linux. Try realizing that you and (likely) the people you know are not average. Whatever OS/desktop can get the most things to "just work" for most of the people will be the most popular, irregardless of how much more 3% of the people can make some other OS do. Frankly, I think you're misappropriating the term "user friendly".
I would also argue that most people haven't "learned Windows" in the way you suggest. People can generally put in a CD and click on the "Default Install" button (although few will open up their machine to install hardware). They've learned the Desktop/Folder paradigm. They've learned little else about the OS; their "computer" knowledge is really knowledge about specific applications. The average user doesn't know how to edit the registry and probably doesn't even know what it is. If what they're trying to do works, great; otherwise, they try a different hardware/software solution or go without. They don't code up their own solution or even hack the registry to fix something. These same people, if/when they switch to Linux, will behave the same way; they will not suddenly start coding up their own scripts and contributing to OSS. And guess what? THAT IS OK. They don't *have* to want to learn all that stuff in order to have something that works. Heck, if it bugs you so much, take advantage of all these lazy people and code up small utility programs and sell them for insanely high prices. But, it's not sensible for you to assume that everyone else wants to spend their life learning about computers.
You do realize that you are equating "user" to "barawn", right? Not all users are like you. As a matter of fact, you are not a "user". If you want to call somebody a generic "user", then it's logical to refer to the average user of the most prevalent OS; since MSWindows is the most used OS on the planet, then "MSWindows user" is the term that deserves to get shortened to "user", not "Debian, RedHat, MSWindows, 'most OSes under the sun' user/hacker". You seem to be a "User", or "uber user", or "administrator", or "hacker", or some such term that applies to many of the/. crowd, but you are not a mere "user".
I agree that no OS is perfect for the immediate needs of everyone, but considering the average level of knowledge of how all that "computer stuff" actually works that most people have, I don't think the day will EVER come that the majority of people using computers will find it easier to "write a little script to release/renew after getting a wakeup signal" than to return their network card and try another one. Having available detailed documentation for correlatation with years of experience to allow the writing of a script is admin/hacker friendly, not user friendly.
To be clear, I think it's possible that there may be some features that might never be "user friendly" because the knowledge required to even answer an intelligent "make it easy" script will be beyond most computer users. Once such a "user" decides to dig deeper and learn how to get more than the defaults out of their OS, they have trancended into "User"; so I guess I would agree that the OSS OSes are more "User friendly":)
Well, I agree. It is good to not be under your employer's boot. The thing is, most of the people I know don't have a choice. When your discretionary income is only a couple hundred dollars a month and you need about 8K in order to have 6-8 months of living expenses covered (my situation due to college loans and below average car and board payments), it's easy to become discouraged because it will take about 6 years to save up that kind of money:) To be honest, I am over-paying on some loans, so maybe I should pay the minimum for a bit until I get money saved up.
So, when you buy a new keyboard you look at every key on it before buying, right? I mean, you wouldn't just see if it has the numberpad/arrows/etc. features you want, you'd actually verify that the whole qwerty layout was correct, right? Because, heck, it's not that hard to verify, you just have to look at them; so why should a manufacturer worry about getting all the letters in the "right" place? The users just need to pay attention and get used to using that keyboard!
OK, now it's time to go find somebody complaining about how they're used to doing it that way and don't want to change and compare them to somebody who doesn't want to learn Linux because, sure it's better, but they've been using Windows every day for 7 years and they're used to it; and Linux should be backward compatible and just like Windows because the user base is so much larger and all those people would have to learn a new way of doing things...;)
(note: the tone is done in jest, but the questions are real)
Why not? Why is it better for some brownskin to be sewing your clothes for $.10 an hour than some Amurcan?
Make sure that we can't compete with other countries?
Sure we can. Put all those homeless and welfare people to work! By working for American Corporations at less than $.50/hr we'll not only bring jobs back to America, but we'll reduce unemployment and get rid of welfare!
Labor markets evolve.
I guess. But what I see happening is this: corps move overseas to save money and then charge the same amount for their product/service to a bunch of people who don't have a job anymore. This seems like an unsustainable cycle. Not to go off on a tangent, but all the extra profits go into making the rich richer and screwing the health of the country's economy.
The thing is: Why can those people live on those salaries? Because the cost of living is so much less. Why? Because food, services, housing, etc. cost much less (the wages of the people producing them are much less). Why can't we live on the same salary? Because things are more expensive here, due to the wages of the Americans making the product/service being higher. So, if Americans aren't getting paid high salaries to produce these products, how can companies keep charging Americans high prices for them? It seems like we'll just be funneling most of the US currency to big corporations that take it in from Americans but give (very little of) it back out overseas.
Malicious Compliance is a term I recently heard. Don't try to "reduce the performance hit". Without going too overboard, do the opposite. If you can't do something, don't figure it out yourself. Call their help center or talk to the local admin, and then sit on your ass until that little problem is resolved. Then call again with the next little problem. Make them keenly aware of the morale, performance, and MONEY hit they are taking by doing this.
The reason you're having to switch is because you are being treated as a work unit, not an individual (and definitely not valued). If your center can show them how much more productive you were when you were able to run Linux, and with no MS license fees, to boot, maybe you'll help them see the light. (/optimism)
We happen to be in a similar situation where I work. While simultaneously complaining about all the license fees they have to pay, management is forcing us to switch our machines from Linux to MSWindows with no other reason than, "I said so". While discussions are not over and all hope is not yet lost, we are tracking all the little bumps and having the IT staff fix all our little problems. Outlook not configured for the right server? Don't look around and fix it in 2 minutes. Make a blocking call to the help center and make it take 1/2 hour.
p.s. I really don't understand the "just quit" comments on stories like this. A lot of people must be much better off financially than I; and I can only imagine the lack of work ethic and/or inflated ego (or total lack of experience in a real work environment) that produces such comments. There are some stands worth losing your house and going hungry over, but not many, and not this.
The power company has Z kilowats of power running through the lines available for sale. These lights each take Y Watts. Powering X lights causes the company to lose X*Y watts of power, that it can no longer supply to paying users.
It's not the same as, say, broadcast TV. In that case, watching a channel doesn't take away one potential paying customer.
Also, power companies get OKs before building lines. They don't just start radiating this stuff onto people's property without asking; and by the time you're far enough away form the base to be out of the land the power company has use of, the em field strength is probably too low to effectively use.
The power company has Z kilowats of power running through the lines available for sale. These lights each take Y Watts. Powering X lights causes the company to lose X*Y watts of power, that it can no longer supply to paying users.
It's not the same as, say, broadcast TV. In that case, watching a channel doesn't take away one potential paying customer.
Slashdot Mirror
Just a quick note: If you want the government to quit wasting money, look toward the military. NASA's budget is something like 4% of the military's budget, and because of the secrecy I'm convinced it probably has more pork and corporate welfare.
btw: pure research, like what's being done (in small amounts because of the cutbacks) on the ISS and shuttle, is what's given us little things like "electricity" and "chemistry". Without all those boring little numbers and facts on the periodic table, we wouldn't have thousands of types of plastic, rubber, etc. Pure science is not exciting, and it usually doesn't "pay off", but it's essential, and definitely "useful".
Yeah, I figured it was a simple mis-read :)
Apparently, the old ones are good enough for you! ;)
You have good points, but I must point out that he said "hundredths", not "hundredth". So, he's talking about the 2nd decimal place.
As an aside, I know that you can generally only trust about 6-8 decimal places on a 32-bit floating point number. I think you'd have to do some major mojo anyway to even think of trusting 100 decimal places.
You might need to deep-cycle it (yes, Li+ batteries need that from time to time). It's the circuitry that needs to re-learn what the battery's full charge and discharge levels are.
htf did this get moderated Interesting? Friggin flaimbait troll.
In case you are actually the ignorant 12 year old you're acting like: 1) Read some fucking history. 2) Just because you were lucky enough to have been born in the USA doesn't mean you have a right to be here. 3) When was the last time a foreigner harmed you? Try looking at how American businesses are screwing over America so that a few rich people can get richer.
1.25GB? Sounds like you're using 3 of your memory banks. The A7 line should have dual-channel memory capabilities, so you should get a performance boost if you only used the first 2 banks. Something like 10%.
Dude, it's called "Binary Search".
This is pointing out that one of the main benefits of Linux over Windows is the fact that it's open.
Yes; I would concede the point excpet that I've never disagreed. The issue I took is that you take offense to somebody wanting to use what's familiar rather than learn something better. That's their right, no matter how sub-optimum it is and how much it irks you. Also, you won't listen to the argument that most people don't care to learn about computers, even though your mother-in-law and brother are typical examples (Note: I'm assuming they aren't exceptionally stupid and/or just starting to use computers).
The OS with the more procifient user is more user-friendly, because it helped them be as productive as possible. Whether or not it was easy isn't the whole story. People use computers to be more productive, not just to use them.
But it's more of an issue than you seem to realize. I know plenty of smart and motivated people who know next to nothing about computers, and it's because they spend their time doing other things. I would argue that if you picked two average people, at the end of the year you would have two people with about the same proficiencies and they would both be far lower than you expect. They'd know how to use the default email client, some AIM application, and an Office suite. I'd even say that if the Linux system didn't provide some grunt-point-click-install program ala Lindows (or at least apt instead of rpm), the Windows user will have tried more software at the end of the year.
An OS that fights with its users because it thinks it knows best isn't user-friendly.
And neither is an OS that doesn't chose reasonable defaults and *forces* a user to research every little thing before using it. Some Linux distros are getting much better about that, but the attitude is still around.
I don't have time to do nice quoting and point by point, I need to go to bed. So here goes:
The Desktop/Folder paradigm is user friendly because most people (i.e. anyone not legally retarded) can use it comfortably with little training.
Realizing that you are above average has nothing to do with ego, just facts. Think of a few simple computer questions, maybe even have pictures of HD, RAM, mobo, etc. and have 100 people answer the Qs and ID the pieces. Go to the local Piggly Wiggly to get your true "average citizen". Try realizing that Nascar is the most popular sport in America; where a bunch of poor people watch a bunch of rich people drive around in circles for hours in technology they don't really appreciate. Heck, at least people who watch golf can actually play the sport. And it's not an issue of being able to learn. It's wanting to learn (about computers in particular). I know a lot of smart people who know hardly anything about computers even though they're writing documents all day, and it's because they're not interested. IT fixes their problems, they do what they need/want to, and then they go home and do things they enjoy. A more powerful system that forces them to spend time learning it when they don't want to is not user friendly.
I'm glad you brought up the stick-shift, because I almost did last time. Guess what? In order to learn how to drive, I don't need to learn how to put a car into 2nd, or even 1st, with a stick shift. I can just put the big dumb circle over the big D and hit the gas! Wow! Not only do I not need to know all about gears, carberators, brake lines, etc., I don't even need to know how to drive a manual. The fact that it might be bett
I assume you meant "had come up with it". Most music that sounds good to humans obeys certain rules, and by following those rules anybody *can* come up with identical pieces of music. It's just whoever finds a particular combination first that gets the copyright.
I would argue that it is, in fact, the facts that are being copyrighted (despite the claims and arguments). Why do I think this? Because the companies aren't worried about somebody else getting an exact replica of their database, they're worried about somebody else getting the same *information* as them and becoming a competitor. Also, allowing the copyright of a database *is* allowing copyright of a fact. That Joan lives on Mockingbird Lane is a fact and that she is the wife of John is both a relationship and a fact. Databases are merely aggregations of these kinds of facts and relationships. By copyrighting a database that shows Joan and John are married, they are copyrighting the relationship, the fact; and they would be able to sue anybody else that tried to present the same relationship/fact (especially if the defendant had ever been a customer of the company).
So is all that stuff about the average global temperature going up and the resulting melting of the ice caps a bunch of BS?
Yum yum, get me some of this troll bait!
His point is that anyone could have set it up under WinXP in two minutes. Only people who feel like wasting hours (easily weeks for someone with no under-the-hood computer skills) of their lives going from newbie status to "I installed my network card" level could set it up under Linux. Try realizing that you and (likely) the people you know are not average. Whatever OS/desktop can get the most things to "just work" for most of the people will be the most popular, irregardless of how much more 3% of the people can make some other OS do. Frankly, I think you're misappropriating the term "user friendly".
I would also argue that most people haven't "learned Windows" in the way you suggest. People can generally put in a CD and click on the "Default Install" button (although few will open up their machine to install hardware). They've learned the Desktop/Folder paradigm. They've learned little else about the OS; their "computer" knowledge is really knowledge about specific applications. The average user doesn't know how to edit the registry and probably doesn't even know what it is. If what they're trying to do works, great; otherwise, they try a different hardware/software solution or go without. They don't code up their own solution or even hack the registry to fix something. These same people, if/when they switch to Linux, will behave the same way; they will not suddenly start coding up their own scripts and contributing to OSS. And guess what? THAT IS OK. They don't *have* to want to learn all that stuff in order to have something that works. Heck, if it bugs you so much, take advantage of all these lazy people and code up small utility programs and sell them for insanely high prices. But, it's not sensible for you to assume that everyone else wants to spend their life learning about computers.
You do realize that you are equating "user" to "barawn", right? Not all users are like you. As a matter of fact, you are not a "user". If you want to call somebody a generic "user", then it's logical to refer to the average user of the most prevalent OS; since MSWindows is the most used OS on the planet, then "MSWindows user" is the term that deserves to get shortened to "user", not "Debian, RedHat, MSWindows, 'most OSes under the sun' user/hacker". You seem to be a "User", or "uber user", or "administrator", or "hacker", or some such term that applies to many of the /. crowd, but you are not a mere "user".
:)
I agree that no OS is perfect for the immediate needs of everyone, but considering the average level of knowledge of how all that "computer stuff" actually works that most people have, I don't think the day will EVER come that the majority of people using computers will find it easier to "write a little script to release/renew after getting a wakeup signal" than to return their network card and try another one. Having available detailed documentation for correlatation with years of experience to allow the writing of a script is admin/hacker friendly, not user friendly.
To be clear, I think it's possible that there may be some features that might never be "user friendly" because the knowledge required to even answer an intelligent "make it easy" script will be beyond most computer users. Once such a "user" decides to dig deeper and learn how to get more than the defaults out of their OS, they have trancended into "User"; so I guess I would agree that the OSS OSes are more "User friendly"
Well, I agree. It is good to not be under your employer's boot. The thing is, most of the people I know don't have a choice. When your discretionary income is only a couple hundred dollars a month and you need about 8K in order to have 6-8 months of living expenses covered (my situation due to college loans and below average car and board payments), it's easy to become discouraged because it will take about 6 years to save up that kind of money :) To be honest, I am over-paying on some loans, so maybe I should pay the minimum for a bit until I get money saved up.
Hmm, then what's all the fuss about?
MMmmmmm. Troll bait!.
;)
So, when you buy a new keyboard you look at every key on it before buying, right? I mean, you wouldn't just see if it has the numberpad/arrows/etc. features you want, you'd actually verify that the whole qwerty layout was correct, right? Because, heck, it's not that hard to verify, you just have to look at them; so why should a manufacturer worry about getting all the letters in the "right" place? The users just need to pay attention and get used to using that keyboard!
OK, now it's time to go find somebody complaining about how they're used to doing it that way and don't want to change and compare them to somebody who doesn't want to learn Linux because, sure it's better, but they've been using Windows every day for 7 years and they're used to it; and Linux should be backward compatible and just like Windows because the user base is so much larger and all those people would have to learn a new way of doing things...
Have you seen Labview?
:]
(note: the tone is done in jest, but the questions are real)
Why not? Why is it better for some brownskin to be sewing your clothes for $.10 an hour than some Amurcan?
Make sure that we can't compete with other countries?
Sure we can. Put all those homeless and welfare people to work! By working for American Corporations at less than $.50/hr we'll not only bring jobs back to America, but we'll reduce unemployment and get rid of welfare!
Labor markets evolve.
I guess. But what I see happening is this: corps move overseas to save money and then charge the same amount for their product/service to a bunch of people who don't have a job anymore. This seems like an unsustainable cycle. Not to go off on a tangent, but all the extra profits go into making the rich richer and screwing the health of the country's economy.
The thing is: Why can those people live on those salaries? Because the cost of living is so much less. Why? Because food, services, housing, etc. cost much less (the wages of the people producing them are much less). Why can't we live on the same salary? Because things are more expensive here, due to the wages of the Americans making the product/service being higher. So, if Americans aren't getting paid high salaries to produce these products, how can companies keep charging Americans high prices for them? It seems like we'll just be funneling most of the US currency to big corporations that take it in from Americans but give (very little of) it back out overseas.
Malicious Compliance is a term I recently heard. Don't try to "reduce the performance hit". Without going too overboard, do the opposite. If you can't do something, don't figure it out yourself. Call their help center or talk to the local admin, and then sit on your ass until that little problem is resolved. Then call again with the next little problem. Make them keenly aware of the morale, performance, and MONEY hit they are taking by doing this.
The reason you're having to switch is because you are being treated as a work unit, not an individual (and definitely not valued). If your center can show them how much more productive you were when you were able to run Linux, and with no MS license fees, to boot, maybe you'll help them see the light. (/optimism)
We happen to be in a similar situation where I work. While simultaneously complaining about all the license fees they have to pay, management is forcing us to switch our machines from Linux to MSWindows with no other reason than, "I said so". While discussions are not over and all hope is not yet lost, we are tracking all the little bumps and having the IT staff fix all our little problems. Outlook not configured for the right server? Don't look around and fix it in 2 minutes. Make a blocking call to the help center and make it take 1/2 hour.
p.s. I really don't understand the "just quit" comments on stories like this. A lot of people must be much better off financially than I; and I can only imagine the lack of work ethic and/or inflated ego (or total lack of experience in a real work environment) that produces such comments. There are some stands worth losing your house and going hungry over, but not many, and not this.
you mean, "moot".
just being helpful :>
Naws, he's speakin' Kentucky!
Probably has to do with the first (major?) power in Canada being produced by Niagra Falls.
The power company has Z kilowats of power running through the lines available for sale. These lights each take Y Watts. Powering X lights causes the company to lose X*Y watts of power, that it can no longer supply to paying users.
It's not the same as, say, broadcast TV. In that case, watching a channel doesn't take away one potential paying customer.
Also, power companies get OKs before building lines. They don't just start radiating this stuff onto people's property without asking; and by the time you're far enough away form the base to be out of the land the power company has use of, the em field strength is probably too low to effectively use.
(note: this comment is mostly a repost)
The power company has Z kilowats of power running through the lines available for sale. These lights each take Y Watts. Powering X lights causes the company to lose X*Y watts of power, that it can no longer supply to paying users.
It's not the same as, say, broadcast TV. In that case, watching a channel doesn't take away one potential paying customer.