Granted, GPLv3's been in the offing for some time. But I reckon so was the MS/Novell deal - these things don't happen overnight. Version 3 of the GPL actually has the potential to bring the OSS community closer together by making clear the issues surrounding things like software patents and preventing (or at least severely curatailing) similar deals.
How does GPLv3 bring people together? Many who've contributed to the Linux kernal as well as others have already said they won't move to it. They don't and OSS is fractured. Sure the bits and pieces that aren't moved can be replaced but the fact is is that by some not moving to v3 OSS is fractured.
Does your city build a new sports stadium for $100 million and get an NBA team
Cities, government, should never pay to build sports stadiums. Every study I've ever heard conclude they cost more to build than any revenue generated by them. All government funded stadiums end up being is corporate welfare for those who own sports teams.
or does it spend the same amount on a municipal geothermal plant
I'd rather not have the government pay for this either, but between the two I'd rather the power plant be government funded. Let private enterprises pay for both. What government, local government, may pay for is the power lines delivering electricity from the power plant to the end user. But then allow open access to those lines and let anyone who wants to generate electricity to pay for and use them to deliver power to any end user that's willing to pay.
So what's geothermal anyway?
In geothermal generated electricity a liquid is pumped into underground pipes where the liquid is heated up before being pumped back up. A heat exchanger topside "pumps" out the heat which is then used to spin a turbine, usually by generating steam.
Dig a hole a few thousand feet, put in a pipe to the bottom and pump in water?
Pipes don't need to be that deep depending on where geothermal power is being generated. All it may take is 100 feet or less.
The of the $1B a month being shipped of to Iraq right now. I wonder what $1B a month would do if it went into geothermal, wind, and solar panels domestically?
By the tyme the war in Iraq is over if the USA had instead used the money to fund an Apollo or Manhattan Project sized renewable energy source I bet the USA would be energy independent, well as independent as anyone could get. Natural resources like coltan would still have to be imported.
"many however buy new hardware that has Windows preinstalled"
That makes it magically free somehow? You can't really be so naive to think it's not preinstalled at a price.
No, it's not free but it is built into the price of the hardware. The buyer gets the computer and the OS at the same tyme, they don't have to buy the computer then install the OS. And depending on who they buy from they may not even need to install apps. I know this as I did it myself, almost 10 years ago I bought my sister a PC with a bunch of apps preinstalled. The PC will either come with all the software needed that's ready to go, or there will be trialware installed. Heck even Apple sales Macs with MS Office trialware installed. You get 30 days to use then if you want to continue to use it you pay MS.
"That or they buy a volume license for XP or Vista."
Which somehow makes it free?
It's not all about being free, in being convenient to have software, whether the OS or apps, preinstalled is a factor as well. I bought my sister's PC with the apps preinstalled both because it was cheaper and because it was convenient. I could have bought them separately then installed the software myself but for one reason, I lived more than a 1,000 miles away.
"Plus the cost of support and training."
It is a LAMP-based software mill that we are talking here. Do you know what the "L" means? It means Linux. If any, there will be extra support and training costs on moving *to* Windows, not the other way around.
In this case yes, but in most cases no. In most cases it's either an upgrade or it's a migration from Windows to Linux or OSX. With an upgrade training won't cost as much as migrating would be.
Regardless of whose fault it is, the fact remains that it could take a year to get drivers for Linux
Yeap, that's all too true currently. But I'm hoping that as more people use Linux more hardware manufacturers will either develop drivers for Linux or will open up how their hardware works. Some companies are working with developers to create ports for their hardware, like Intel and AMD. About 10 months ago I bought a new PC with Linux preinstalled however it doesn't have a dvd drive installed so I've been looking for one to get that's compatible. Because I want it mainly to make backups I was looking for a dl dvd drive, now however as I currently have almost 200GB used on the hdd for my documents, instead of getting a dl dvd which would require more than 20 disks to backup my files I'm thinking of getting a BluRay or HD DVD drive. I may end up getting an external hdd but then I'd need more than one.
Bullshit. The American indians simply lacked the technology to have a significant impact on their environment until they got horses, at which point their population expanded and they routinely exhausted hunting grounds, and became far more mobile as a result.
If you really think so then maybe you'll learn something about America Indian culture before 1492 by reading "1491". American Indians created entire ecosystems of cities and farms that improved the environment.
The fact is, it's the industrialized world that first became concerned about the environment, because we're rich enough to have the luxury of considering issues beyond subsistence.
Fact is is the American Indians, specifically the Iroquois, have had a saying about taking care of the environment: "In every deliberation we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine."
So my argument is not that MS is superior (heavens no!) but rather that until you are asked for a solution, you should not try to give one. It is useless.
I disagree. In this case IT is being asked to make a major change in how the current is run. It's the responsibility of those who work there to tell it like it is. I used to be in the Army and I frequently questioned orders, occasionally I'd even refuse to follow an order. I got into trouble for that, however afterward I was frequently told I was right. Some who outranked me hated this but others wanted thinkers not robots. One of my COs, Commanding Officers, even put in a request for me to go to Warrant Officer Flight School as I was enlisted not an officer.
"That's all fine and good, but when the software we're going to use breaks, we'll have someone to sue over it."
Then they need to be told to reread the ULA. User License Agreements, especially those from MS have clauses which says they aren't liable for anything if the software breaks.
About the only chance you have is to put together a pretty Powerpoint presentation showing that switching to.NET will cost a billion dollars. Make costs up if you have to. The problem is that if you show it will only cost a million, they'll still do it anyway just to be on that magical.NET bandwagon, and you'll need a ridiculously large cost to justify not doing so.
Don't lie about the costs, all that is is reversing the FUD. You battle FUD by using facts. Then if managers or those in charge decide to use an expensive solution when a less expensive one exists maybe it's tyme to jump ship, I wouldn't trust them to stay in business for much longer.
Not all spouses are like this. Many in polyamoury find it better to have more than one spouse or lover. Of course it takes someone special who can live as a polyamourist. For instance someone who gets jealous would have a difficult tyme in a poly relationship.
That is also a fairly ignorant statement. I have BS and MS degrees in CS. Except for 2nd year calculus and theory of computation I am routinely using more advanced math in marketing classes. Yes, I was completely shocked. Yes, I used to hold the same arrogant and erroneous opinions you now hold.
In college I majored in Computer Engineering and didn't expect it when my sister who was majoring in Accounting asked for my help for her calculus class. And I could have used her help for statistics.
Also, donating time to an open source project does not necessarily identify those with an interest. Some of the more savvy career path types realize that this is an easier way to get something on the resume outside of classwork.
Yeap, working on a FOSS project is a good way to get experience and having your name on one is a way to get credit. If I were in a position of hiring people, I'd rather see what they actually worked on over a degree.
I think why people say a Reagan Conservative is because a lot of people seem to lack a lot of historical knowledge and so a Teddy Roosevelt conservative means nothing to them. But they lived through Reagan and he did an alright job
While Reagan cut taxes he increased the size of government. Reagan and Bush Sr created the biggest federal deficit up to their tyme. Then after Clinton had served 8 years he almost eliminated the deficit.
From their limited knowledge they aren't certain that Linux will support computers that come in next year, then what do they do, base their business on older stuff and try to migrate over to something else at the last minute. The aren't sure that the guys working on Linux might just decide it's boring and quit working on it, suddenly there is no more free OS anymore. again they have to adapt the business at the last minute.
Linux doesn't support new hardware right away. It can take from months to more than a year before drivers are available. However this isn't the fault of Linux developers, it's because of the hardware companies not releasing the drivers and not opening the hardware interface so developers can write their own drivers.
I myself am somewhere around a classical liberal and a conservative
The conservative in the mode of Teddy Roosevelt, or as some make the mistake of saying a Reagan Conservative, is about small government. And about taking care of the environment.
A co-op isn't necessarily a bad idea and in fact is the epitome of people taking care of themselves and their neighbors.
Yea, coops themselves aren't government controlled, the members of the coop vote on how to run the coop. There are several coops in my area and I'm a member of two. I originally joined the first one because I wanted to show my support for organics. However I also like the idea that they all support local farmers. I believe everyplace should be food self sufficient.
Not that I'm against international trade, I support it, but people should be able to get enough staple food from farms where they live. Once they have enough they can then trade, barter, surplus food with others that grow other crops. Apples for wheat, oranges for strawberries, sort of thing. Of course what one area has a surplus of but needs or wants what another place has a surplus of, the other place may not want what the first place has. In a barter system three or more way trades can get complicated, so something of a fixed value, money, makes it easier. Surplus can be sold and the money from the sale can be used to buy something else.
I don't really care for the government funding business like this at all but I'm not a pure-conservative in the sense that I can allow for some government expenditures for public-access things
I am Liberal, but not as is commonly used today in the USA, instead I am a Classical Liberal, and believe in Liberty and a small government just as Thomas Jefferson did. Today the party that comes closest is the Libertarian Party. Infrastructure is one area I disagree with some Libertarians, I say some because I've seen other Libertarians express the same opinion. I believe that if not the local government then a local business, coop, or nonprofit should own the local infrastructure. They would then be required to have open access to that infrastructure. This would include, but not be limited to, cable, phone, and powerlines. Anybody would be able to start a cable company to deliver cable tv to clients, same with phones and powerlines. If someone wanted to start an electricity business, say using geothermal, solar, or wind generators to generate electricity they could use the powerlines to deliver it to anyone who buys from them. A good example of this in broadband is in northeastern Utah where a group of communities have established a Broadband Utopia.
I see you specify state government and state not the federal government. State is better than fed, but even better is a more local unit such as city, county, or parish. A group of them may join together, as with the Broadband Utopia, to build the infrastructure.
You can get a server on an uncapped 10Mb (full duplex) connection for $300/month without any bandwidth limits at all (dedicated/leased server)
That's something I don't get, a host to provide space and a T1 or more for $100 or less. Yet a T1 connection is more expensive. Quickly I just used Google to check the price for a T1 connection. The first result is Stat T1 OC3 Connection. It lists a T1 starting at $379. The only way I can think of a host can provide this access so low is if it's a shared connection with at least a few different sites, either on different computers at that location or via shared hosting on the same computer.
And somehow a single government controlled monopoly will be better than numerous independent monopolies?
It's working fine in at least one place, in northeastern Utah a group of communities have been able to build a Broadband Utopia. Anybody can start a business delivering any service the infrastructure is capable of, whether it be broadband access, phone service, tv, or a combination of them. It is capable of speeds of up to 100Mbs.
Actually, even Canada's rural areas far from the border get good broadband. Your argument doesn't hold. It's really only the truly remote, hard to reach places that are still on dial-up or slow dsl.
Now, let me think, do I want to stick with Cox where the service keeps improving and I get like zero outages or do I want to have some government-run bureaucracy forcibly providing me internet service?
And what do you think of the government giving Cox and other broadband providers taxpayer money to buildout broadband? How do you feel about it when they don't buildout the infrastructure they got taxpayer money to do?
Uhh, no. Try Urban Minnesota and the average speed is 4mbit down 384Kbit up...
I live in Minneapolis and though I haven't checked my speeds yet when I download files I rarely get even 200Kb. I have no idea what my uploads speeds are, I used to upload files for classes but didn't tyme it. That's cable, I don't even know if the phonelines are capable of dsl where I live. The lines where my sister lives in Minnetonka aren't capable, but the ones on the next street over are.
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Granted, GPLv3's been in the offing for some time. But I reckon so was the MS/Novell deal - these things don't happen overnight. Version 3 of the GPL actually has the potential to bring the OSS community closer together by making clear the issues surrounding things like software patents and preventing (or at least severely curatailing) similar deals.
How does GPLv3 bring people together? Many who've contributed to the Linux kernal as well as others have already said they won't move to it. They don't and OSS is fractured. Sure the bits and pieces that aren't moved can be replaced but the fact is is that by some not moving to v3 OSS is fractured.
FalconThey don't work with Microsoft to create drivers?
That isn't an answer to my question, which was "Didn't AMD work with Linux developers for the AMD64 support?"
FalconDoes your city build a new sports stadium for $100 million and get an NBA team
Cities, government, should never pay to build sports stadiums. Every study I've ever heard conclude they cost more to build than any revenue generated by them. All government funded stadiums end up being is corporate welfare for those who own sports teams.
or does it spend the same amount on a municipal geothermal plant
I'd rather not have the government pay for this either, but between the two I'd rather the power plant be government funded. Let private enterprises pay for both. What government, local government, may pay for is the power lines delivering electricity from the power plant to the end user. But then allow open access to those lines and let anyone who wants to generate electricity to pay for and use them to deliver power to any end user that's willing to pay.
So what's geothermal anyway?
In geothermal generated electricity a liquid is pumped into underground pipes where the liquid is heated up before being pumped back up. A heat exchanger topside "pumps" out the heat which is then used to spin a turbine, usually by generating steam.
Dig a hole a few thousand feet, put in a pipe to the bottom and pump in water?
Pipes don't need to be that deep depending on where geothermal power is being generated. All it may take is 100 feet or less.
FalconThe of the $1B a month being shipped of to Iraq right now. I wonder what $1B a month would do if it went into geothermal, wind, and solar panels domestically?
By the tyme the war in Iraq is over if the USA had instead used the money to fund an Apollo or Manhattan Project sized renewable energy source I bet the USA would be energy independent, well as independent as anyone could get. Natural resources like coltan would still have to be imported.
Falcon"many however buy new hardware that has Windows preinstalled"
That makes it magically free somehow? You can't really be so naive to think it's not preinstalled at a price.
No, it's not free but it is built into the price of the hardware. The buyer gets the computer and the OS at the same tyme, they don't have to buy the computer then install the OS. And depending on who they buy from they may not even need to install apps. I know this as I did it myself, almost 10 years ago I bought my sister a PC with a bunch of apps preinstalled. The PC will either come with all the software needed that's ready to go, or there will be trialware installed. Heck even Apple sales Macs with MS Office trialware installed. You get 30 days to use then if you want to continue to use it you pay MS.
"That or they buy a volume license for XP or Vista."
Which somehow makes it free?
It's not all about being free, in being convenient to have software, whether the OS or apps, preinstalled is a factor as well. I bought my sister's PC with the apps preinstalled both because it was cheaper and because it was convenient. I could have bought them separately then installed the software myself but for one reason, I lived more than a 1,000 miles away.
"Plus the cost of support and training."
It is a LAMP-based software mill that we are talking here. Do you know what the "L" means? It means Linux. If any, there will be extra support and training costs on moving *to* Windows, not the other way around.
In this case yes, but in most cases no. In most cases it's either an upgrade or it's a migration from Windows to Linux or OSX. With an upgrade training won't cost as much as migrating would be.
FalconIt's only racism when a white person says something bad about a minority individual or group.
No, it's racism when anyone anywhere uses some stereotype to cast anyone in a bad light.
FalconDidn't AMD work with Linux developers for the AMD64 support?
FalconRegardless of whose fault it is, the fact remains that it could take a year to get drivers for Linux
Yeap, that's all too true currently. But I'm hoping that as more people use Linux more hardware manufacturers will either develop drivers for Linux or will open up how their hardware works. Some companies are working with developers to create ports for their hardware, like Intel and AMD. About 10 months ago I bought a new PC with Linux preinstalled however it doesn't have a dvd drive installed so I've been looking for one to get that's compatible. Because I want it mainly to make backups I was looking for a dl dvd drive, now however as I currently have almost 200GB used on the hdd for my documents, instead of getting a dl dvd which would require more than 20 disks to backup my files I'm thinking of getting a BluRay or HD DVD drive. I may end up getting an external hdd but then I'd need more than one.
FalconBullshit. The American indians simply lacked the technology to have a significant impact on their environment until they got horses, at which point their population expanded and they routinely exhausted hunting grounds, and became far more mobile as a result.
If you really think so then maybe you'll learn something about America Indian culture before 1492 by reading "1491" . American Indians created entire ecosystems of cities and farms that improved the environment.
The fact is, it's the industrialized world that first became concerned about the environment, because we're rich enough to have the luxury of considering issues beyond subsistence.
Fact is is the American Indians, specifically the Iroquois, have had a saying about taking care of the environment:
Falcon"In every deliberation we must consider the impact on the seventh generation... even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine."
The summary is misleading, Geothermal power [wikipedia.org] plants already exist.
Yeap, Iceland gets a lot of it's energy from a geothermal source.
FalconSo my argument is not that MS is superior (heavens no!) but rather that until you are asked for a solution, you should not try to give one. It is useless.
I disagree. In this case IT is being asked to make a major change in how the current is run. It's the responsibility of those who work there to tell it like it is. I used to be in the Army and I frequently questioned orders, occasionally I'd even refuse to follow an order. I got into trouble for that, however afterward I was frequently told I was right. Some who outranked me hated this but others wanted thinkers not robots. One of my COs, Commanding Officers, even put in a request for me to go to Warrant Officer Flight School as I was enlisted not an officer.
Falcon"That's all fine and good, but when the software we're going to use breaks, we'll have someone to sue over it."
Then they need to be told to reread the ULA. User License Agreements, especially those from MS have clauses which says they aren't liable for anything if the software breaks.
About the only chance you have is to put together a pretty Powerpoint presentation showing that switching to .NET will cost a billion dollars. Make costs up if you have to. The problem is that if you show it will only cost a million, they'll still do it anyway just to be on that magical .NET bandwagon, and you'll need a ridiculously large cost to justify not doing so.
Don't lie about the costs, all that is is reversing the FUD. You battle FUD by using facts. Then if managers or those in charge decide to use an expensive solution when a less expensive one exists maybe it's tyme to jump ship, I wouldn't trust them to stay in business for much longer.
FalconA spouce does not tolerate any competition.
Not all spouses are like this. Many in polyamoury find it better to have more than one spouse or lover. Of course it takes someone special who can live as a polyamourist. For instance someone who gets jealous would have a difficult tyme in a poly relationship.
FalconThat is also a fairly ignorant statement. I have BS and MS degrees in CS. Except for 2nd year calculus and theory of computation I am routinely using more advanced math in marketing classes. Yes, I was completely shocked. Yes, I used to hold the same arrogant and erroneous opinions you now hold.
In college I majored in Computer Engineering and didn't expect it when my sister who was majoring in Accounting asked for my help for her calculus class. And I could have used her help for statistics.
Also, donating time to an open source project does not necessarily identify those with an interest. Some of the more savvy career path types realize that this is an easier way to get something on the resume outside of classwork.
Yeap, working on a FOSS project is a good way to get experience and having your name on one is a way to get credit. If I were in a position of hiring people, I'd rather see what they actually worked on over a degree.
FalconI think why people say a Reagan Conservative is because a lot of people seem to lack a lot of historical knowledge and so a Teddy Roosevelt conservative means nothing to them. But they lived through Reagan and he did an alright job
While Reagan cut taxes he increased the size of government. Reagan and Bush Sr created the biggest federal deficit up to their tyme. Then after Clinton had served 8 years he almost eliminated the deficit.
FalconUm...yeah. Free if you don't count having to go buy Windows XP Pro at anywhere from $145-$299 a copy.
Only if you're upgrading the OS, many however buy new hardware that has Windows preinstalled. That or they buy a volume license for XP or Vista.
Buy anyways, the cost on linux? $0. $0 $145. Linux for teh win.
Plus the cost of support and training. Of course Windows also has these costs however if they're already a Windows shop the costs will be lower.
FalconFrom their limited knowledge they aren't certain that Linux will support computers that come in next year, then what do they do, base their business on older stuff and try to migrate over to something else at the last minute. The aren't sure that the guys working on Linux might just decide it's boring and quit working on it, suddenly there is no more free OS anymore. again they have to adapt the business at the last minute.
Linux doesn't support new hardware right away. It can take from months to more than a year before drivers are available. However this isn't the fault of Linux developers, it's because of the hardware companies not releasing the drivers and not opening the hardware interface so developers can write their own drivers.
FalconI myself am somewhere around a classical liberal and a conservative
The conservative in the mode of Teddy Roosevelt, or as some make the mistake of saying a Reagan Conservative, is about small government. And about taking care of the environment.
A co-op isn't necessarily a bad idea and in fact is the epitome of people taking care of themselves and their neighbors.
Yea, coops themselves aren't government controlled, the members of the coop vote on how to run the coop. There are several coops in my area and I'm a member of two. I originally joined the first one because I wanted to show my support for organics. However I also like the idea that they all support local farmers. I believe everyplace should be food self sufficient.
Not that I'm against international trade, I support it, but people should be able to get enough staple food from farms where they live. Once they have enough they can then trade, barter, surplus food with others that grow other crops. Apples for wheat, oranges for strawberries, sort of thing. Of course what one area has a surplus of but needs or wants what another place has a surplus of, the other place may not want what the first place has. In a barter system three or more way trades can get complicated, so something of a fixed value, money, makes it easier. Surplus can be sold and the money from the sale can be used to buy something else.
FalconI honestly didn't know anyone used ChaCha for anything besides screwing with the people. There have been epic forum threads based on ChaCha.
This is the first tyme I've heard of the Chacha SE, but now that I have I'll check it out, I frequently check out new SEs I hear about.
FalconI don't really care for the government funding business like this at all but I'm not a pure-conservative in the sense that I can allow for some government expenditures for public-access things
I am Liberal, but not as is commonly used today in the USA, instead I am a Classical Liberal, and believe in Liberty and a small government just as Thomas Jefferson did. Today the party that comes closest is the Libertarian Party. Infrastructure is one area I disagree with some Libertarians, I say some because I've seen other Libertarians express the same opinion. I believe that if not the local government then a local business, coop, or nonprofit should own the local infrastructure. They would then be required to have open access to that infrastructure. This would include, but not be limited to, cable, phone, and powerlines. Anybody would be able to start a cable company to deliver cable tv to clients, same with phones and powerlines. If someone wanted to start an electricity business, say using geothermal, solar, or wind generators to generate electricity they could use the powerlines to deliver it to anyone who buys from them. A good example of this in broadband is in northeastern Utah where a group of communities have established a Broadband Utopia .
I see you specify state government and state not the federal government. State is better than fed, but even better is a more local unit such as city, county, or parish. A group of them may join together, as with the Broadband Utopia, to build the infrastructure.
Falcon
You can get a server on an uncapped 10Mb (full duplex) connection for $300/month without any bandwidth limits at all (dedicated/leased server)
That's something I don't get, a host to provide space and a T1 or more for $100 or less. Yet a T1 connection is more expensive. Quickly I just used Google to check the price for a T1 connection. The first result is Stat T1 OC3 Connection. It lists a T1 starting at $379. The only way I can think of a host can provide this access so low is if it's a shared connection with at least a few different sites, either on different computers at that location or via shared hosting on the same computer.
FalconAnd somehow a single government controlled monopoly will be better than numerous independent monopolies?
It's working fine in at least one place, in northeastern Utah a group of communities have been able to build a Broadband Utopia. Anybody can start a business delivering any service the infrastructure is capable of, whether it be broadband access, phone service, tv, or a combination of them. It is capable of speeds of up to 100Mbs.
FalconActually, even Canada's rural areas far from the border get good broadband. Your argument doesn't hold. It's really only the truly remote, hard to reach places that are still on dial-up or slow dsl.
Even Nunavut has broadband access.
FalconNow, let me think, do I want to stick with Cox where the service keeps improving and I get like zero outages or do I want to have some government-run bureaucracy forcibly providing me internet service?
And what do you think of the government giving Cox and other broadband providers taxpayer money to buildout broadband? How do you feel about it when they don't buildout the infrastructure they got taxpayer money to do?
FalconUhh, no. Try Urban Minnesota and the average speed is 4mbit down 384Kbit up...
I live in Minneapolis and though I haven't checked my speeds yet when I download files I rarely get even 200Kb. I have no idea what my uploads speeds are, I used to upload files for classes but didn't tyme it. That's cable, I don't even know if the phonelines are capable of dsl where I live. The lines where my sister lives in Minnetonka aren't capable, but the ones on the next street over are.
Falcon