Why do you, AC, call this a GTK troll? I think GTK is a nice toolkit for C++ programming. I think it's a nice toolkit for C# programming. So I think it's just a nice toolkit. So I think it doesn't deserve death.
It seems to me the problems GNOME devs have with the Java/mono stuff are rather:
Should we allow Java apps in the official distribution although Java is not Free and there is no complete Free replacement (yet)? AND Should we allow mono apps in the official distribution although our beloved Havoc Pennington says there are concerns which prevent Red Hat from shipping mono?
If there was no such problem, I guess you would have both Java and Mono, just like you have Python now. Most devs agree that the foundation (GTK, GLib, core libraries) stay in C. The question is which language to allow for official end-user applications.
What's the install base of Slackware compared to Red Hat/Fedora or Ubuntu? GNOME seems very popular in large installations such as schools, which are not well accounted for in those polls. I think there are more geek desktops with KDE than with GNOME currently, but this doesn't mean KDE is the most used/popular... Anyone knows of some reliable statistics about this?
This may be interesting as an example, but not insightful.
Actually, I find it rather stupid, to ask for the death of GTK because you have problems implementing this in C. What's stupid is not to have chosen a bad case as example (this is, at worst, unfair), but to stick with C if you don't like the consequences. Just use C++, C#, python...
GTK is a wonderful toolkit, which lets you choose whether you prefer C++, C#, etc. and the syntax simplicity that comes with these languages, or C which has its own advantages (compilation speed, portability...).
Re:KDE Zealots: A vocal minority of a dying DE
on
GNOME 2.12 Released
·
· Score: 1
So you would count Debian as a GNOME distrib, because although it installs by default both GNOME and KDE, you log in to GNOME by default?
Anyway, it's of course not a good way to evaluate the popularity of both desktops... there are KDE users on Ubuntu, GNOME users on Mandriva, etc. But I think the parent does have a point: looking at a typical slashdot thread doesn't represent the percentage of people satisfied with GNOME.
To me Sound Juicer is clearly the best ripper. Totem is the best video player (apart from mplayer in some cases, but mplayer is not really HIG compliant:) ). So I very much appreciate that they're actively worked on.
CD burners: lots of work here... apart from nautilus cd burner (which does blank my CDRW when that's what I've inserted), see graveman, gnome baker, coaster...
I agree about Samba though
Re:Waiting for apps isn't annoying, focus stealing
on
GNOME 2.12 Released
·
· Score: 1
With the current work on adding security support to testing, maybe you'll consider using that instead of stable...
Mmm I read the following in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (letter 148 to Katherine Farrer):
Jarrold's appear to have a highly educated pedant as a chief proof-reader, and they started correcting my English without reference to me: elfin for elven; farther for further; try to say for try and say and so on. I was put to the trouble of proving to him his own ignorance, as well as rebuking his impertinence.
FYI, Tolkien was professor of English language and literature at Oxford. (Note that he doesn't say that "try to say" is wrong).
The flip side of the argument is that installing a broken zlib will break all application that are dynamically linked, but have no effect on those that are statically linked.
That's why some people like to use (say) debian stable in production environments: security fixes are backported to the well-tested version of the lib, making a breakage quite unlikely.
Ah you're right about the presence of statically linked programs. I'm not sure about what you say concerning Windows however... we're not talking about official libs in the OS, but of third party libs commonly used in third party programs. In linux distibutions, there's a culture of using shared libraries when possible, and advanced package tools make this quite convenient. AFAIK there's no such thing on Windows, so most of the time programs have to include their own copies of third party libraries. (Sure, I remember having programs that asked for some visual basic 5 dll I had to fetch on internet, but it's a (rather annoying) minority.)
We've seen many posts on slashdot recently explaining why the packaging systems are no longer desirable (if they ever were), that dependencies are a PITA (even with systems à la APT), etc. But when you have a flaw in a very popular library like this, you'll be happy to know that all 354 programs using this library on your system will be safe once the shared library is upgraded... Windows users must upgrade every software manually, and they often won't be able to know precisely what software may be affected...
Re:Now that Debian's back in the game....
on
Fedora Core 4 Available
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· Score: 2, Informative
Although Fedora is officially independent, RedHat still contributes heavily to its developement.
Anyway I don't understand your Debian vs. Fedora view. What about Ubuntu, for example?
Nice to know that oppressing big corps of today will be replaced by fresh ones tomorrow...
For your argument to really put capitalism in a favourable light, I think you must explain how the rise of those new compagnies is a good thing for us (is it just that they bring cool technology? (which is possible without growing to mega corp status))
The new version of parted used in sarge fixes this bug. And your data was not lost, you would just have had to fix the partition able (that is, if you're indeed speaking of this bug)
1) are you comparing the acts of irresponsible 14 years old linux zealots with those of a journalist exercising her profession?
2) let's naively separate people in two camps: linux and anti-linux. Are you saying that if someone in the linux camp (irresponsible kid) does something bad to someone in the anti-linux camp (DiDio), then it's OK for anyone in the anti-linux camp (MOG) to do the same to anyone in the linux camp (PJ) ?
The GNOME people are probably breaking out the champagne at this point.:-(
Excuse me!? Please don't spread the disgusting idea that GNOME people would rejoice at hundreds of FOSS developers losing their work.
There may be many "trolls" among GNOME and KDE users, but there are many intelligent people among the devs, who collaborate through freedesktop.org and even joke together, like on April 1st when they made planet.gnome.org point to planetkde.org and vice versa.
Is it really supposed to be a good alternative to traditional debian packages? I talk about what I (thin I) know but I'm sure other distributions have the same concerns:
Why is debian so good? Not because software installation is so easy. Of course it's important but the thing is every debian package has to follow strict policies to get accepted by the ftp masters.
Also, according to the FAQ, software installed through Autopackage won't be known to dpkg (and apt-get, etc.). They say they want to integrate with rpm, but nothing about deb...
According to the FAQ autopackage is not adequate for packaging C++ programs (because of gcc's ABI instability).
Finally, I doubt these packages will ever use things like the debian "alternatives" and other particularities which make a debian system.
Slashdot Mirror
Why do you, AC, call this a GTK troll?
I think GTK is a nice toolkit for C++ programming. I think it's a nice toolkit for C# programming. So I think it's just a nice toolkit. So I think it doesn't deserve death.
It seems to me the problems GNOME devs have with the Java/mono stuff are rather:
Should we allow Java apps in the official distribution although Java is not Free and there is no complete Free replacement (yet)?
AND
Should we allow mono apps in the official distribution although our beloved Havoc Pennington says there are concerns which prevent Red Hat from shipping mono?
If there was no such problem, I guess you would have both Java and Mono, just like you have Python now. Most devs agree that the foundation (GTK, GLib, core libraries) stay in C. The question is which language to allow for official end-user applications.
What's the install base of Slackware compared to Red Hat/Fedora or Ubuntu? GNOME seems very popular in large installations such as schools, which are not well accounted for in those polls. I think there are more geek desktops with KDE than with GNOME currently, but this doesn't mean KDE is the most used/popular... Anyone knows of some reliable statistics about this?
This may be interesting as an example, but not insightful.
Actually, I find it rather stupid, to ask for the death of GTK because you have problems implementing this in C. What's stupid is not to have chosen a bad case as example (this is, at worst, unfair), but to stick with C if you don't like the consequences. Just use C++, C#, python...
GTK is a wonderful toolkit, which lets you choose whether you prefer C++, C#, etc. and the syntax simplicity that comes with these languages, or C which has its own advantages (compilation speed, portability...).
So you would count Debian as a GNOME distrib, because although it installs by default both GNOME and KDE, you log in to GNOME by default?
Anyway, it's of course not a good way to evaluate the popularity of both desktops... there are KDE users on Ubuntu, GNOME users on Mandriva, etc. But I think the parent does have a point: looking at a typical slashdot thread doesn't represent the percentage of people satisfied with GNOME.
To me Sound Juicer is clearly the best ripper. Totem is the best video player (apart from mplayer in some cases, but mplayer is not really HIG compliant :) ). So I very much appreciate that they're actively worked on.
CD burners: lots of work here... apart from nautilus cd burner (which does blank my CDRW when that's what I've inserted), see graveman, gnome baker, coaster...
I agree about Samba though
With the current work on adding security support to testing, maybe you'll consider using that instead of stable...
The names have changed, now it is:
linux-image-2.6-686
(although kernel-image-* packages are still provided as metapackages)
I should have read these posts before... see my reply
Mmm I read the following in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (letter 148 to Katherine Farrer):
Jarrold's appear to have a highly educated pedant as a chief proof-reader, and they started correcting my English without reference to me: elfin for elven; farther for further; try to say for try and say and so on. I was put to the trouble of proving to him his own ignorance, as well as rebuking his impertinence.
FYI, Tolkien was professor of English language and literature at Oxford.
(Note that he doesn't say that "try to say" is wrong).
They offer an amazing variety of music (including Pink Floyd)
Pink Floyd? Amazing indeed! I dare you find one that has Rolling Stones records though...
The flip side of the argument is that installing a broken zlib will break all application that are dynamically linked, but have no effect on those that are statically linked.
That's why some people like to use (say) debian stable in production environments: security fixes are backported to the well-tested version of the lib, making a breakage quite unlikely.
Ah you're right about the presence of statically linked programs. I'm not sure about what you say concerning Windows however... we're not talking about official libs in the OS, but of third party libs commonly used in third party programs. In linux distibutions, there's a culture of using shared libraries when possible, and advanced package tools make this quite convenient. AFAIK there's no such thing on Windows, so most of the time programs have to include their own copies of third party libraries. (Sure, I remember having programs that asked for some visual basic 5 dll I had to fetch on internet, but it's a (rather annoying) minority.)
We've seen many posts on slashdot recently explaining why the packaging systems are no longer desirable (if they ever were), that dependencies are a PITA (even with systems à la APT), etc.
But when you have a flaw in a very popular library like this, you'll be happy to know that all 354 programs using this library on your system will be safe once the shared library is upgraded... Windows users must upgrade every software manually, and they often won't be able to know precisely what software may be affected...
Although Fedora is officially independent, RedHat still contributes heavily to its developement.
Anyway I don't understand your Debian vs. Fedora view. What about Ubuntu, for example?
Nice to know that oppressing big corps of today will be replaced by fresh ones tomorrow...
For your argument to really put capitalism in a favourable light, I think you must explain how the rise of those new compagnies is a good thing for us (is it just that they bring cool technology? (which is possible without growing to mega corp status))
Well see for yourself: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=2 58880
As for the wireless card, you may want to try the Ubuntu live-cd too
The new version of parted used in sarge fixes this bug. And your data was not lost, you would just have had to fix the partition able (that is, if you're indeed speaking of this bug)
2.4.27 and 2.6.8
Mmmm like when Trolltech released QT under the GNU GPL?
Ok
(point 1 remains though)
Blablabla...
1) are you comparing the acts of irresponsible 14 years old linux zealots with those of a journalist exercising her profession?
2) let's naively separate people in two camps: linux and anti-linux. Are you saying that if someone in the linux camp (irresponsible kid) does something bad to someone in the anti-linux camp (DiDio), then it's OK for anyone in the anti-linux camp (MOG) to do the same to anyone in the linux camp (PJ) ?
The GNOME people are probably breaking out the champagne at this point. :-(
Excuse me!? Please don't spread the disgusting idea that GNOME people would rejoice at hundreds of FOSS developers losing their work.
There may be many "trolls" among GNOME and KDE users, but there are many intelligent people among the devs, who collaborate through freedesktop.org and even joke together, like on April 1st when they made planet.gnome.org point to planetkde.org and vice versa.
Thanks for the answer. I'll keep an eye on it then...
Is it really supposed to be a good alternative to traditional debian packages? I talk about what I (thin I) know but I'm sure other distributions have the same concerns:
Why is debian so good? Not because software installation is so easy. Of course it's important but the thing is every debian package has to follow strict policies to get accepted by the ftp masters.
Also, according to the FAQ, software installed through Autopackage won't be known to dpkg (and apt-get, etc.). They say they want to integrate with rpm, but nothing about deb...
According to the FAQ autopackage is not adequate for packaging C++ programs (because of gcc's ABI instability).
Finally, I doubt these packages will ever use things like the debian "alternatives" and other particularities which make a debian system.
I won't consider such a regression anytime soon.