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Dvorak on the LinuxWorld Fracas
An anonymous reader writes "John C. Dvorak has entered the fray, offering his opinion on the O'Gara LinuxWorld flap. From the article: '...the Linux community is slowly evolving into a state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.' "
Nice troll. Where is that quote in the article? Crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga MY ASS!
*smashes keyboard in half*
And I don't want to take your stupid little javascript survey either, damn I need a smoke.
If you ask me, Dvorak is the paranoid crackpot leftover from the waning days of the Amiga. Every community has its lunatics, just watch some Jerry Springer, your local city hall meetings or sit on the city sidewalk on a Friday night. For the Linux or Amiga community to have them is a sign of balance. Its the media that ends up giving them the light that stereotypes the whole community.
What the Linux community needs right now is a good leader. Someone to make everyone realize that the community is the one that is in charge of the direction of things and help them to focus their efforts.
Okay, yeah, I think I see your point here, John:
We should be more understanding towards useless "journalism" and media flamebaiting, because without those practices you might actually have to come up with something insightful or worthwhile every week to fill out your column and earn page hits. Hey, I can see where you're coming from -- that'd take legwork, insight and generally staying on top of the industry. I imagine that's hard work, and trust me: I'm right there with you on the "I don't like hard work" page.
BTW, congrats on getting your flamebait article on the front page of Slashdot. It's good to know that *some* "journalists" are still able to use (a) and (b) successfully to drum up (c). It's gotta be a good feeling to walk into your boss's office at review time and wave around yet another spike in ad impressions courtesy of the Slashdot crowd -- I hope you're appreciative enough to include Zonk on your Christmas card list!
Anyhow, hope preparing your standard self-righteous indignation column for when (d) inevitably rolls around is going well. Aw, who am I kidding, I know you're an old pro -- I'm sure you were already writing that one when you handed in this last article to your editor.
A little trolling, and two columns done and in the bank. Must be a nice life.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Says Dvorak, the wise, all knowing sage...oh wait.
Maybe this was a subconscious self-referential compliment.
I'll say Dvorak has some good points.
I don't believe that either PJ or O'Gara are paid shills and Dvorak does a good job of explaining why.
I also believe that O'Gara was merely being controversial.
Interesting conspiracy theory that the rabid zealotry may be astroturfing on the part of MSFT, etc... I'll point out that said zealotry has existed for much longer than MSFT has been concerned about FOSS as a threat. Case in point: Stallman.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Burn 'im. 'E's a witch!
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
So now, nearly 20 years later, why exactly is it that I should give a flying fuck about Mr. Dvoraks opinion?
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
I thought Groklaw is a front for Jehovas's Witness? (No flames please. PJ is great.)
an ill wind that blows no good
...than a toadying suck-up to vendors.
DaGoodBoy
My God! It's full of Voids!
...to boost the number of clicks on his column.
You're right. If Dvorak wants to be taken seriously, he should start stalking a target. Linus, perhaps?
As it is, all pending Dvorak story submissions should be entitled:
Opinions are like assholes - no one wants a whiff of Dvorak's.
wow that's the nice version of what I thought.
thanks for writing it before I could.
I had all sorts of names to call him, but the polite way is always more fun. People don't expect it.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
How can anyone take this guy seriously? He obviously hasn't read any of PJ's stories over at Groklaw where she is cogent, lucid and respectful (even though MOG certainly doesn't deserve any). What the heck was his point again?
Here's the deal John:
1. There were many reasonable people offended by O'Gara and her attempts to intimidate Jones. And that's what you have to call it, because if you're trying to find out if someone's a stooge for IBM (Dvorak suggests this is all O'Gara was trying to do), you're not making your case by publishing the address of their mother.
2. Calling for a journalist to be disciplined, up and including being fired, for a clearly inaccurate and evil piece of journalism is not, in any way, "nutty" or indicative of "mob rule". To lump those who have done so with those on the fringes making death threats is to lump all christians with anti-abortionist murderers of doctors, or all muslims concerned about the US presence in the Middle East with Osama Bin Laden.
It's really that simple. Something did something clearly wrong to many of us, so many of us publicly expressed our disappointment. Some did so angrily, some didn't.
It's the height of paranoid fanaticism (and yes, I use the word paranoid quite justifiably):
to lump together a diverse group of people with differing opinions and charge them with some conspiracy to attack you.That's assuming you're not trolling for webpage hits. I assume the editors were by posting this article.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
So Dvorak has seen another chance to jump in the lime light and play the under-dog
and stir up some controversy by calling all of us who called for O'gara to be fired "lunatics" (not just those who issued death threats , who are quite likely a bit mad)
Don't buy into this , he is just trying to kick up his readership .
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Dvorak is on crack if he thinks that there are any businesses that are going to give a shit about the MoG/PJ flap. Businesses adopting Linux and other FOSS products are looking to reduce TCO and also trying to make sure that they don't end up being 0wnz0r3d by Microsoft into perpetuity by having their corporate data locked into proprietary file formats that change from release to release and by being locked into licensing schemes that become ever more onerous and increasingly expensive as time goes on. The antics of the various players in the MoG/PJ flap are going to have about as much impact on the adoption of Linux and FOSS as Steve Ballmer's video, the one where he jumped up and down like a chimp, had on the adoption of Windows XP.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Well, he lives by his own words doesn't he? He drums up an article or two on controversial subjects, gets them posted on Slashdot and his column gets more hits than the rest of the articles combined (stages scenario, I don't know the exact figures off course).
The problem is that the Slashdot editors also seem to love the controversy a Dvorak article is sure to bring in, having someone to bash is just good for business I guess.
I wondered where those guys hung out when they're not trashing others points of view over at OSNews!
Now we know.
Oh it's from Dvorak? It must be a bunch of B.S.
There is nothing to see here!
Move along! Move along!
Next article!
So, yeah, Dvorak should definately start stalking Linus. And he should bring along a crew to videotape it -- when that one hit the net, I'd watch it every morning while I ate my Cheerios.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
that on the one hand he says that the linux community needs to grow up and denounce and eject extremists and fanatics, and on the other hand, criticises them for doing just that with OGara
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
O'Gara's article was bullshit but if obvious bullshit engenders the sort of response we saw then people are gonna start wondering about just how grounded in reality you really are.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Judges give out restraining orders against stalkers for crying out loud.
He is right! When Linux gets even headed and even handed people at the helm across the board, things will move in a direction more positive to the masses.
Gregor
/me reads Dvorak's article
/me looks at Slashdot comments from Linux fanboys
/me nods in agreement
Ha, I always wanted to post a discword quote on /.
What is the meaning of a fracas or a rumpus outside of a Pratchett novel?
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
Woot.
However, what you're looking for is 'dredge'. Using 'drudge' would indeed be pun-intended.
Lunatics are always among the first adopters of any emerging technology. The same kind of people buy so called "environmentally friendly" electric cars, so that the instead of converting fuel directly to mechanical energy, it's converted to mechanical energy, then electicity, then chemical energy, then electricity again, and back into mechanical energy to move their car.
You don't have to be a lunatic to hate Ms. O'Gara though.
>> ...cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga...
Suits me. I loved my Amiga. It was a great machine for its time and got me through university just fine.
Obviously the Linux community should be under the direct control of washed-up print journalists...
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Tue May 17 18:46:03 CEST 2005 [2830]
I think I will change my name to Qwerty and start a Dvorak bashing column ...
Like all trolls, if he doesn't get a rise he'll stop eventually
I am trolling
Please please please could the Slashdot editors stop giving these blatant troll writers so much advertising revenue by linking to them. Tech news sites will keep writing all this crap about Linux etc because they know it generates page impressions from outraged geeks.
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Tue May 17 18:46:19 CEST 2005 [3167]
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Tue May 17 18:46:48 CEST 2005 [998]
1) In any sufficiently large collection of people, there will be some who are unstable.
2) Linux will not wither because of the nuts -- there's too much value in Linux to business and as long as the value proposition is there, so will Linux.
3) John, and almost any journalist, is probably feeling a little threatened by the MOG story.
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
Groklaw is actually a front for SCO.
I think that that point was lost on Dvorak. Whether or not O'Gara is a paid shill or not is beside the point- what she did was not, and should not be considered by Sys-Con, to be appropriate.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
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Tue May 17 18:47:28 CEST 2005 [6936]
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Tue May 17 18:47:23 CEST 2005 [706]
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Tue May 17 18:47:42 CEST 2005 [214]
From the article:
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides.
This is the key, right here. It's actually slightly shocking that he let himself shine through so clearly in this paragraph. Dvorak is actually just upset because, y'know, that's his schtick. Generating readership by making inflammatory and offensive articles? That's pure Dvorak. It strikes fear into his black little heart to see someone get fired for doing exactly what he does, so he lashes out at it.
Who needs to be right when you can be controversial?
Random and weird software I've written.
Dvorak: "In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership."
Earning another medal then, John?
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Tue May 17 18:48:39 CEST 2005 [3391]
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Tue May 17 18:47:50 CEST 2005 [8814]
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Tue May 17 18:48:39 CEST 2005 [9631]
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Tue May 17 18:49:04 CEST 2005 [7266]
'...the Linux community is slowly evolving into a state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.'
If voicing my option about REAL BAD REPORTING and JOURNALISM makes me all that. Well heck I remember the Amiga. I guess that's me the "paranoid crackpot". This guy is clueless....
Whatever.... Time for my MEDS!
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Tue May 17 18:49:32 CEST 2005 [7658]
Is it not the case that back in the day, the sort of article written by O'Gara would not have caused such a reaction simply becuase writing a letter to the editor to complain required effort? Now that it is easy to fire up your favourite email editor and compose your protesting prose WITH CAPSLOCK ON, every fanboy and his dog is going to do it.
I'm not defending O'Gara - I think that her article was appalling - but I don't defend the unthinking responses that were generated either.
Any fool can talk, but it takes a wise man to listen.
And there's only one thing wrong with that logic.
It's complete bollocks.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Teeheehee - He said Amiga!!!1
... is here. I can see why she was fired for this malicious piece of character assassination. I'm not sure why Dvorak sees fit to gloat about it, though, since it has nothing at all to do with Linux, as far as I can tell.
Dvorak states that 'Crazed Lunatics' are something that normal people simply don't want to associate with and that if Linux becomes associated as the OS of the 'Criminally Insane', the OS will be dropped by regular people. That's absolutely not true.
What has crazed fanatic lunatics done to set back religious groups?
Absolutely nothing.
There's still plenty of Christians, Jews and Muslims running around, even though each of those major world religions has more then a few criminally insane followers counted amongst their faithful.
Now, I am not saying that Operating Systems are like religions. They aren't. What I am saying is that people will go with what works for them, regardless of how many kooks are associated with it.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Funny thing, I've been using linux since SLS, I use it every day, I stay in tune with what's going on within the Linux world (or at least I like to think so) and I had no idea what Linuxworld was or who maureen o'gara is until this thing blew up. From what I gather, she's just a tool like Dvorak who still doesn't "Get" the 21st century and the changes in media. There is a huge difference between the readers of some little linux web magazine and the community at large. It sounds and looks to me like they can't distinguish the difference because they are so clearly not part of the greater community; they get flamed by some vocal folks and think that reflects the way things are.
I'll also throw this salvo out there. I like groklaw, I like what it's doing and trying to do. I also think PJ needs to reveal some things about herself, if you want to be a cultural and media figure you have to deal with it. If you want to be an anonymous person, then I'd suggest not running a big popular web site and trying to get in the middle of it all. I don't think what happened is right but PJ needs to build her credibility, I can't consider it news or bias free if I don't know who the messenger is. The whole thing sucks but I've been toning down my reading of groklaw simply because I don't know who is behind it. She should consider this an important lesson, release the information the way you want it released and maintain and control your privacy or have someone dig it up and lose control of it. There are plenty of "celebrities" that can manage that and keep their privacy.
I fail to see how this is new. I mean, there is a reason why someone thought it was necessary to write a Linux Advocacy HOWTO.
Of course, most of the people aren't developers or testers or document writers. Most of them seem to be people who don't contribute anything but lots of noise (I guess since they are incapable of contributing anything,they think they belong by threaten to harm anyone they perceive as a threat to the community')
And this isn't actually a new phenomenon specifically within the Linux community. Any community creates these kinds of people, whether it's OS/2, Amiga, Macintosh, Windows.
Still I'm not sure the community did anything wrong with O'Grady (having her removed from writing an inflammatory article on a Linux site seems reasonable), unless someone actually did threaten physical harm to her (for that person, she should report it to the police. We don't need those in the community in the first place).
Je ne parle pas francais.
[...] the Linux community figures that O'Gara is being paid by SCO or Microsoft or someone bad. Again, if this were so, and if it was ever proven or stumbled on during the discovery process (nothing to take lightly), it would be a disaster for the litigation chances of the company doing the paying. It just wouldn't be worth the risk.
Dvorak assumes there are reasonable people on SCO's side with something to lose. The risk wouldn't be worth it for any reasonable person or business. However, the SCO leaders have been acting like they believe they have no risk personally and no more business risk than the buyout or bankruptcy of a losing business. It's obvious even to me (no lawyer I) that their whole approach to the litigation has been go-for-broke. From that point of view, they just may consider it worth the risk of doing all sorts of bad things to accomplish their personal goals, especially if those goals are being thwarted by a small time blog publisher (as they see it).
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
There is such a thing as journalistic integrity. Apparently Dvorak doesn't believe in it, but most people do. When a reporter doesn't stand up for doing the right thing people get mad. Then heads have to roll. You can ask a number of people who used to work for CBS news until they faked a report on Bush's service just before the last election.
Come to think of it, yesterday NewsWeek was forced to retract a story, because they didn't check the facts sufficiently. I wouldn't be surprised if someone resigns at NewsWeek of the issue.
The Linux community did nothing unexpected when you consider the facts. Some reporter did something unethical, and the community forced his/her bosses to fire him/her. It has happened before, it will happen again. The only thing that has really changed is that today someone who discovers media abuse has an easier time letting people know.
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Tue May 17 18:51:38 CEST 2005 [3217]
He thinks idiot fanbois are going to make Lunix look bad, and that's going to kill it? That's a good point: Consider the Playstation's penetration into the enterprise market.
Talking about the death of Linux guarantees that he's full of shit. Linux will be imortalized in routers and handhelds and webhosts until the end of time. No matter what John C. Dvorak thinks of the comments here on Slashdot.
What would the death of "Linux and the open-source movement" even look like? What would the Amiga lunatic community look like right now if their holy OS had always been available as source code? IMHO, a lot like it looked in it's fucking heyday (not that that's a good thing), even if they were abandoned by the platform provider. Kill Lunix how??
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Dvorak: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. ...And our proven monopolist little F'ed up worm known as Bill Gates is what everyone wants to be associated with?
I was going along with the whole Mob Rule thing and enjoying the article until he said this. The whole world has always been under mob rule... legal mobs more or less. Currently, 90% of the fanatics and lunatics are using IE.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
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Tue May 17 18:54:04 CEST 2005 [4952]
Quoting Mr. Dvorak: "I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics."
Actually, I consider myself to be normal. And yes, I like being associated with fanatics and lunatics associated with Linux and Open Source because this is where innovation and creativity come from. Those that are passonate about it might be more vocal than some of us would like, but there is still a great deal to be learned from those who have put much of themselves into making Linux and Open Source what it is today...the so-called fanatics and lunatics.
I think he makes some other valid points in the article, but on that point he totally misses it.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
That should be a very slow and somewhat painful death (probalby due to drowning.)
Loading...
And I bet you will sadly see Dvorak proved right as people try and prove him wrong.
I also believe that O'Gara was merely being controversial.
MoG has had a hate-on for IBM since the days of the antitrust trial. If she has a chance to slam IBM, she takes it.
She sees PJ defending IBM, and so she goes after PJ. I think Darl & Co. played on her hatred of IBM, but she allowed them to, and she got what she deserved.
It was more than just being "controversial" - MoG wanted to hurt IBM by hurting PJ.
GNU/Lunix -- Linux distro for lunitics
What amazes me is that O'Gara was literally stalking PJ and published personal information about her on the web and this bozo thinks open source people are dangerous.
evil is as evil does
Who cares what John Dvorak says? Are his writings truly useful to you? Is Dvorak somehow mysteriously tapped into the IT world in ways that only he knows (and not otherwise available on the Internet)?
I think not. Dvorak is a pre-WWW writer who is trying to keep his now unnecessary job. Please let his writing and publications die quietly.
SlashDot is fast becoming a spam-board for legacy IT publications.
His latest commentary about the death of the gaming industry in PC Magazine is laughable at best. He claims that there haven't been any noticeable developments in the gaming world in decades and that the industry will collapse soon. This is to mark the coming of Quake IV. What he doesn't realize is that even if the gameplay itself is similar, that's not an issue to most gamers. To give you a convenient analog: Think about rock music. It hasn't changed in nearly 50 years!!! Guitars, cute vocalist, drums, bass, maybe a keyboardist stashed in back corner somewhere. The lyrical content usually focuses on romance, good times, parties, or rebellion (both with and without a cause). Did the rock music business die? No. The overall instruments, and concepts of rock bands haven't changed either, just as the FPS and MMORPG games haven't really changed. What does change is the experience. This is where Dvorak fails to see that gaming is alive and well.
/. people'!!!! You're being trolled heavily by the editors. I mean SUPER HEAVY.
Now his "linux users as disgruntled crackpots" angle is an amusing troll. But he's no Cracky-Chan or Mercatur loving/hating denizen of Trolltalk. To quote someone, "Wake up
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
He got one thing right...
First let's get a few things straight. All of O'Gara's assertions are nutty.
Some of them go way beyond nutty. Dvorak acknowledges that O'Gara tracked down and photographed PJ's home and PJ's mother's home and posted pics in her column
But rather than point out the problem with this type of "journalism", he praises it.
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides.
Right, thank god we have PC Magazine to sustain the flame of responsible journalism. What an asshole.
Dvorak hasn't been relevant since sometime around Windows 3.11. For him to have anything to say about the Linux community, a community for which he has absolutely no understanding, would be funny if it weren't so plainly pitiful.
Dvorak reaches for anything that will keep him from fading into complete oblivion. It's not bad enough to have been relevant at one time and lost it, he's now trying to come back from the brink. An article that references the Amiga is enough proof of a computer writer living in the past. I was surprised to see that there were no references to the Eniac.
Since his article was written for a web site why wouldn't he include relevant hyperlinks? How about a link to the original MOG story, links the LinuxWorld editorial response, links to the publisher's incredibly stupid interview? Instead, Dvorak chooses to spin the story into something that it's plainly not.
This story can't be spun because it was played out in the open. The article was published, the response was sent, the publisher tried to make amends but then showed incredible ignorance in his interview, then the entire editorial staff of LinuxWorld quit. Where the implosion exists is beyond me but then again, I've kept up with the industry.
Keep striving to relevancy Dvorak.
LinuxInsider also has a pretty strange track record. I've only followed it on the topic of software patents, but at least there they are only publishing pro-swpat lawyer opinion pieces without giving any room for rebuttals. See the collected documentation on the FFII wiki
Donate free food here
Ahhh... I remember the rabid Amiga fans of the late 1980's. Never passing up an opportunity to deliver an unsolicited "the Amiga is better, you should get one because... blah blah blah..." I remember being on the receiving end of this while wirewrapping a 8051 microcontroller, with the suggestion that I use a $500 GP computer to replace a $40 uC. They were really quite a PITA. The Amiga was a groundbreaking machine and all, but it's groundbreaking features were of little use in business, which was driving the PC market at that point, and AmigaOS was just horrible.
Years ago, I myself have made the observation that some in the Linux community had started to sound like the Amiga shills of old. I find myself sitting on the fence on this one. The Linux crew isn't always so obviously wrong and out of touch like the Amiga zelots were... But then I go read some makefile that generates statements like:
gcc ... -Wall ... 2>&1 > /dev/null
and I start thinking... They're either BOFH sysadmins... or just insane!
I get a blank page when I decline TFS (The...Survey.)
Thanks.
Exclusive: Who Is 'PJ' Pamela Jones of Groklaw.Net?
Pamela Is A 61-Year-Old Jehovah's Witness Who Lives In A Shabby Genteel Garden Apartment In Hartsdale, New York
By: Maureen O'Gara
May 7, 2005 09:15 PM
A few weeks ago I went looking for the elusive harridan who supposedly writes the Groklaw blog about the SCO v IBM suit.
The now-famous opinion-shaping open source leader Pamela Jones, aka "PJ," doesn't give conventional face-to-face interviews. Never has, near as anyone knows. All communication is virtual. Only one person in the world has ever claimed to have met her - in the pressroom at LinuxWorld in Boston complete with a Pamela Jones badge - and described her as a fortyish reddish-blonde who giggled a lot.
[Photo: May 7, 2005 12:37 PM - 304 North Central Avenue, Hartsdale, New York. The last known address of Pamela Jones, as the superintendent of the building calls it, Ms. Pam Jones.]
Oh yeah? Wonder what cold crème she uses.
Pamela Jones is a 61-year-old Jehovah's Witness who lives in a shabby genteel garden apartment in desperate need of an interior decorator on a heavily trafficked commercial road at 304 North Central Avenue in Hartsdale, New York. Hartsdale is in Westchester and Westchester is IBM territory.
See, even though Groklaw treats cell phones like they were Kleenex and changes its unpublished numbers regularly, one number it left with a journalist led to this flat and - wouldn't you know it but - some calls from there had been placed to the courts in Utah and to the Canopy Group so obviously this just isn't any Pamela Jones.
Pamela has lived in apartment 1A for 10 years at least, according to the super, who says he's watched people move in, have children, and the children marry and move away.
Now, this isn't your usual anonymous New York apartment. It's practically a self-contained village where the super goes for the old ladies' groceries when there's snow on the ground and people know each other's business.
[Photo: May 7, 2005 12:41 PM - 304 North Central Avenue, Hartsdale, New York. The last known address of Pamela Jones.]
But the super didn't know much about Pamela except that she had a computer, worked at home (maybe sometimes) for a lawyer, was "paranoid" - his word - and "sensitive to smells."
He remembered how he was cleaning paintbrushes one day and she came running down the stairs screaming "Fire."
She was also missing and had been for weeks.
Nobody there knew where she was.
She had up and disappeared one day, and the super was worried about her. He said her son had dropped by and he didn't know where she was, and that some strange man that "nobody knew," as the super described him, had tried to get into her apartment while she was gone - the Medeco lock she had had installed on her door - something nobody else in the complex seemed to feel a need for - was more expensive than the door. But, as it happened, the super said, she had just sent in her rent in an envelope postmarked Connecticut.
Like an episode out of "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego," the trail led to 10 Bittersweet Trail in Norwalk, Connecticut, 24 miles away. Sure enough, parked in the driveway was Pamela's car, just as the super had described it, a dark gray '90s Japanese number with a bunch of Jehovah Witness pamphlets tossed on the backseat.
The woman at the house, Barbara Jones Sharnik, told a disjointed story. She didn't know Pamela, Pamela hated her, Pamela wasn't there, Pamela left her car there because it got bumped, Pamela left her car there because she left town, and so on.
Afterwards Barbara called the cops, and then the cops called the number we left with her and the cops said that she was Pamela's mother and that Pamela was on the run and had shacked up with her mother because she had gotten "threatening mail" weeks before and that she had just gotten spooked again because "people were getting hurt around [my] stories" and had lighted out for Canada.
John says that MOG was nutty to write that, but that there wasn't anything wrong with it.
He even said that, in the old days, she'd be given a MEDAL for writing that because of the page hits it generated.
Then he goes on to refer to Linux users as "criminally insane" "fanatics"/"lunatics" who issue "death threats" to those who disagree with them.
But the evidence so far only shows the cops being called on MOG, none have been called on Linux fans.
And that was only when MOG was harassing PJ's mom. And John didn't have a problem with MOG harasssing PJ's mom because worse things happen. Newsflash: Just because something worse can happen does NOT make other things right or good or ethical.
So, John is accepting ANY allegations made against the "Linux community" by ANYONE even if there is NO evidence.
And he predicts that all those fanatical, lunatic, criminally insane Linux fans will post hateful messages on his blog now.
You have to ask yourself WHY someone would accept ANY allegations made against Linux fans AND use such provocative descriptions of said fans in a PUBLIC column.
I belive that he's given up trying to write about the tech and is setting himself up as a martyr when the "Linux fanatics" post crap on his "blog".
It's all about the page hits and the material for future columns.
Great. Another MOG is born to take the place of the MOG that was.
It's funny how Dvorak waxes nostalgic about "the olden days" where there was no journalistic integrity. Can he really possibly be saying outloud that he wishes journalists were actually less ethical?
I think 'ol John has a future job Fox News, or perhaps a technology version of Crossfire! Here's some news John, lack of ethics in journalism is RAMPANT today. Every other week there's some scandle of reporting. The bad 'old days are today, and I'd love nothing more than a technological equiv of Jon Stewart to skewer you like he did those pig-fuckers on 'Crossfire!'.
AccountKiller
I could go on but it's not worth it. Dvorak is just trying to do exactly what he says O'Hara should be commended for: getting readership by stirring up controversy. He's ambulance chasing. His article is contentless crap. The only thing worth reading concerning GNU/Linux is source code and technical articles. That excludes most things written by Dvorak.
A little trolling, and two columns done and in the bank. Must be a nice life.
Ever wonder if Dvorak is evaluated based on how many people click the page two link? It's obvious the editors are counting how many comments he gets, because he wont shut up about the comments sections.
All because I owned both an Amiga 1000 (with 1 MB of RAM expansion tumor) and a 500.
In recent years, he has become a professional internet Troll. He knows that he can get a lot of page views by saying things to inflame passionate groups (Mac users, OpenSource advocated, etc.) and he does so at every opportunity.
My advice for you is the same as with any other Troll: Do Not Feed.
My Photography - http://ian-x.com
The Deathlings (comic) - http://thedeathlings.com
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Saying "I'm gonna kill ya!" online is somewhat rude. Stalking out personal info and posting pictures (with or without the explicit threat) is just plain chilling. Especially coming from a "professional journalist". *shivers*
Why do people confuse articles with editorials? He's not reporting news, he's voicing his opinion.
Windows over Linux == trolling.
Linux over Windows == advocacy.
Right?
This whole article is flamebait and doesn't provide any new insight. Dvorak's taking a fringe minority of the Linux community and presenting them as the larger group. There's nothing new about death threats. Small groups of angry people make death threats all the time over everything. It's always happened in society and will continue to happen.
What is new these days, and I think Dvorak and other "journalists" are having trouble grasping, is that the media is now being held accountable. Since the late 90's there's been a larger number of reporters who have had to resign in disgrace over fabricated stories. Jayson Blair, Dan Rather, and just this week, Newsweek is being raked over the coals. News execs are certainly afraid with some comments lashing out at "bloggers." They should be afraid because in their history, they've never been under more scrutiny by their audience. Journalists are more afraid these days, and I don't think that's a bad thing. For once, there's a checks and balances system for them.
...the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga...
;)
It could've been the retired Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders of 1970s.
Never heard of Paparazzi before?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
We need a leader to tell everyone we don't need a leader?
No, we don't. Why bother putting the weight of a world-wide movement onto one individual, when the thing is doing fine on its own?
I'm reminded of a story from the Book of Judges (in the Bible). Israel had been more-or-less confined to the hill country by the Philistines because they kept failing to listen to their judges, who were sort of like Linus, ESR, RMS, et al. It was a meritocracy of sorts. Israel clamored for a king, though, so they could be like the other nations. Through Samuel, they were told the king would take away their freedoms and tax them for his own purposes, but they insisted. They ended up with King Saul, a megalomaniac of, er, biblical proportions.
sigs, as if you care.
I guess you would be the first to be fired. Writers need to know how to spell.
The thing that Dvorak is missing is this it wasn't the Linux community that got O'Gara fired. It was primarily the other editorial staff and the advertizers. Dvorak seems to think that doing anything you can to get people to read your column is okay, even if it offends your publishers and your advertizers. He seems to miss that having your ad appear to go along with criminal conduct is not something that most people are willing to pay for. Nobody wants to put product placement in the Abu Gharib photos, even though they've been seen by many people.
Of course, he understands this himself, even if he doesn't base his article on it. He could get a lot more "veiled threats of lawsuits" to report about if he wanted by stealing mail from the Linux community or stalking people, but he's smart enough not to do it himself or report the details which would make him liable and his publisher uncomfortable.
He still around?
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
That fact that O'Gara is a worthless hack attempting to incite harrassment of PJ still doesn't justify a DoS attack on Sys-con. Dvorak is also a worthless hack that usually says whatever he is paid to say and deliberately attempts to be controversial in order to sell, but in this case he is making some sense. The only thing I disagree with him about is that even if O'Gara wasn't getting paid by SCO, it would certainly be a lot easier for her to ask SCO for the info it's detectives had already dug up than to do her own homework, wouldn't it? Journalists should stick to reporting just the facts as best they can, and not engage in personal vendettas... like the one Dvorak used to have against Windows!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I believe John is severely deluded.
First of all, PJ's articles have been very accurate.
MOG took a role in media sensationalism, inaccuracy, and FUD. When her articles descended into ad hominem attacks, people reacted.
People emailed SYS-CON advertisers.
Fuat Kircaali called up individuals emailing advertisers, and threatened to sue them.
Instead, the OSS community threatened a boycott of SYS-CON. We made our positions on anti-OSS publications well known.
I guess because I received an unfriendly phonecall from Fuat Kircaali threatening to sue me over my emails, that I am somehow one of these crackpots?
Instead, I will rebut with this:
John Dvorak is not fully acquainted with the overall tone of the MOG articles, and the SYS-CON support for her anti-OSS sensationalist agenda.
If threatening a boycott, is somehow construed as a death threat, John Dvorak should stop pointing fingers and instead enroll in english 101.
We still haven't seen any evidence of a DDOS. No logs, no IP addresses, no documentation.
We still have an unapologetic publisher (Fuat Kircaali)
We do have "media analysts" pontificating on subjects they appear to be thoroughly ignorant in.
I guess John Dvorak is following in the MOG tradition. Will he be syndicated by SYS-CON next?
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership.
To which olden days do you refer, Mr. Dvorak? Perhaps you mean those olden days of yellow journalism. Sorry, but I prefer a more ethical style of online writing. Dan Gillmor says it best: Be honorable.
FreeSpeech.org
Dorvak States: There was removal of the offending article with apologies all around.
I don't remember reading any apologies from the author or the publisher. Can anyone point me to them.
-----
Pretty Bad Privacy (PBP) Public Key
6
I have to agree with Dvorak on this one. I have been saying this for months on Slashdot and usually get modded to troll or flamebait for it. The fanatic members of the linux community are going to bring it to it's knees. I am an IT professional who has made a living in this fashion for 20 years. Yea, that's a long time for IT. I don't flaunt it, because it actually means nothing. I do however know that to be successful, you HAVE TO be able to weight the pros and cons objectively on every software/hardware decision that is made. Quite frankly, those decisions end up being an MS product much of the time. I am not saying MS's products are great, heck I am not even saying that they work decently sometimes, but it is necessary in many cases, due to the constraints of the software, the job/project needs and so on. It's a fact of life right now, It's not a Linux world out there,... yet.
With all of that said, I cannot survive in the industry, if I am viewed as belonging to a group of fanatical left wing blow hards who absolutely refuse to look at the pros of anything that competes with their prize product. It would shut the door for me as professional. I have also long stated that the fanatical representations of Linux and the over-bashing of MS shed a poor light on the community and cause outsiders to shy away. Very few people wish to be associated with a group that refuses to acknowledge that any choice but theirs is a ticket to damnation (accept maybe in the case of the factional Christian faith denominations). If Dvorak is stating this, should it not be clear to everyone that there are a fair number of ot Iher important people who also have this perception? I am not saying it is right, but we HAVE TO do something to correct it, or we all are going to painted in the same light. That is not what Linux is and it is not what it's future could be. If the perception rules over the facts, as Dvorak said, the trash heap of history is where this (linux) is - headed.
I've figured this whole mess out!
O'Gara = Jones!
This was just a scam to escalate O'Gara/Jones to a media frenzy!
Don't forget, Einhorn WAS Finkle! Finkle WAS Einhorn! Einhorn was a man!
And they said zombies weren't real!
First, I saw the Dvorak name and immediatelly thought, "there are Linux geeks who use this instead of QWERTY? Amazing. They'll do any kind of project on this platform. I wonder what the Sourceforge page is for it."
Second, I saw the Amiga reference and thought, "I hope this doesn't mean that they'll turn the penguin into a buxom female ala Amy the Squirrel." The image in my head put shivers of disgust down my spine. But then there are so many horny geeks about...
Lastly, I wondered, "why does anyone care what happens between SCO and IBM other than we could merge them and get BISCOM? Yeesh, what boob bait for bubbas. It's like caring about the outcome of a fight between Richard Branson and Donald Trump."
Is this a sign of how irrellevant Dvorak and SCO are to me on a daily basis?
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
I HATE DVORAK website? Such articles deserve to go there.
The sad thing is, Dvorak's been doing this shit for 20+ years, and he still seems to be able to make a living out of it. He's the Rush Limbaugh of the computer press; it doesn't matter how blatantly wrong he is, his primary role is stirring up arguments.
Dvorak described PJ and MOG as rivals. In what way are they rivals? That's like describing the squirrel that steals my walnuts as being my 'rival'. That's like describing the mayor of Podunkie Heights as being George W's rival.
It's like Dvorak wandered in from somewhere, took a look around and decided that he need to spout off. I deeply regret giving his page a hit.
As for businesses avoiding Linux because it has some crackpots; it's like Germany not trading with the 'States because it has the KKK. Give me a break.
don't read him anymore - if he calls what O'Gara did journalism then he should go right out the door with her.
Respected journalism should be about facts and getting to the truth not about getting readers.
He is all marketing.
What O'Gara did was very wrong and unprofessional.
What she did bordered on harrassment not journalism. If she called PJ and PJ told her she did not want an interview and wanted to remain out of the limelight she should of respected that decision.
I think O'Gara and Dvorak should go work for some tabloid that you see at the grocery checkout - that way they go around and spy and try to get pictures of celebrities so they "get readership".
I want Mr. Dvorak to know that I cancelled my subscripiton (which I just renewed) to SysAdmin magazine and gave that article as reason. SysCon should of known better than to publish that and at least I am doing my part to let them know.
Thank goodness for the Editors at LinuxWorld - I truly respect them and I am sure respected magazines will pick them up - i.e linuxmagazine.
Mr. Dvorak can only wish he has half the ethics those folks do - articles like his just hurt the community he speaks of - there are lunatics all around - they don't represent the majority and he is just bringing the lunatics to the forefront which is what they want.
So Mr. Dvorak why don't you actually do some factual articles instead of helping to dish up FUD against the community.
Go ahead. Substantiate your claim.
Show where ANYONE here published DiDiot's mother's address/phone number or even pictures of her house.
Go ahead. It should be easy.
While I'm not a big fan of Dvorak, he's got a point. Linux has a fairly large fanboy contingent that sometimes.... exceeds the bounds of prudent behavior. While most of us geeks are used to that, all it takes is a few NYTimes bylines about Linux users issuing death threats to errant journalists to tarnish the image.
If I'm reading it right, I think the article is simply a "Fanboys grow up!" call.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
Don't bother with RTFA. The article is a complete troll. I feel had for having read it. The gist of the article is, "So two women got in an online argument. What's the big deal?" Dvorak conveniently ignores the central issue behind the uproar - the publishing of PJ and her mother's addresses, complete with photos and (practically) driving directions. He replies to several messages in the forum, but never to one covering this most central of points. So either:
A) Dvorak thinks this is within the bounds of ethical journalism, or
B) His articles weren't getting much attention lately, and he knew which buttons to push.
I vote for (B).
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
Dear John,
You are irrelevant. Your opinion is like the sound of a screaming child in a meditation hall: disturbing and unwelcome. Please leave the punditing to those who are more inclined to prognosticate instead of antagonize. Your blatant click-driving behavior is irritating.
Which Christian church are you referring to?
The oldest christian churches are what is commonly called the orthodoz christians.
You then had the italian church, Rome, which separated and became the Microsoft of Christianity (power, baby!). Then, yo have all the churrches that were created as offshoots as soon as some british monarch wanted to get laid, divorced or other. Then you have the fanatics like the ones that came to america and then you finally have all the american pseudo-christians that have polluted us for hte past 200 years, you know, the jehovah, the mormons and other such cults, not too mention, the R&B black churches where every other pro football player is a priest, or the tv evangelists crooks which swindle millions of people in the name of god.
Which church are you referring to?
All the US ones are start-ups that were created by crooks and certifiable nutjobs.
Whether its the Mormons magic underwear or Scientologists veneration of Xenu the overlord, there is no difference.
We Americans have the Ku Klux Klan; most of us are not proud of it; most of us abhor their message and tactics; most of us have learned to ignore them and not give them the attention that they crave. Those of us in the Linux community that consider ourselves normal users advocating the freedoms that GNU/Linux provides have chosen to ignore the fanatics like O'Gara and Dvorak and get our news from news sites that are level headed and as fair as possible: like Linux Weekly News. Thanks, Jon, for your measured responses and truly informative articles.
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
In today's world of the so easily offended you sure look like one too, John. Otherwise I fail to see what this troll is all about. Are you protecting bad journalism here?
You should remember who your clients are before talking that much. Do you really fail to see why the kind of visibility that O'Gara received and that you seem to admire so much is actually bad?
First of all I would like to know what kind of proof you have that any of this is real. You wrote that Groklaw's claim about O'Gara working for Sco are just words, yet you publish an article saying that the death threats existed, and that they come from this community.
Get your facts straight. The whole effort that you descrive as an act of violence from this community was just a ton of complaints to Sys-Con regarding O'Gara.
Reporters have the freedom to speak up their minds just as much as we do. You should never forget that it works both ways.
diegoT
like Dvorak. Nuff said.
extremist and makes silly non relevant points, but i was spitting soda all over my keyboard reading it.
just search out his columns on OS/2 from the mid to late '90s. The Linux comments in the linked article were like a walk down memory lane. ;-)
Unless you count five (5) lines from the http log to be 'evidence'.
And as I pointed out on Groklaw, the logs can be forged. There is no way to prove that a DoS attack occurred.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga
Cheerleaders: Score +12. Hopefully naked cheerleaders.
Paranoid: +2. Everyone should be paranoid.
Crackpot: 0. Have you ever tried to smoke crack from a pot?
Leftovers: 0. Ambiguous score. Are they chinese takeout leftovers from last night, or 3 month old covered in an as yet unknown species of mold?
Amiga: + Eleventy trillion.
Author: +2. Has-been industry sycophant with mediocre technological expertise -3, shares surname with inventer of superior keyboard layout +5.
Total score: Eleventy trillion + 16. Dvorak would never compliment linux advocates, so this confirms my theory that he has mercury poisoning and is saying random things in his mad ranting. I vote to remove his feeding tube.
So I've been here a while, and I don't remember this "site where intelligent people shared ideas". I'm trying to figure out when Slashdot was supposedly like that, since when I started reading people were already complaining about how it had deteriorated into a cesspool of nonstop idiocy.
Will anyone older than me testify that Slashdot was once a hallowed institution of platonic debate?
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
After R'ing TFA's first page, I believe that Dvorak's signal-to-noise ratio is either negative or imaginary (like sqrt(-1)) at this point.. Hack city...
"I had all sorts of names to call him, but the polite way is always more fun. People don't expect it"
You sirs are an embarrasment to Linux crackpots & lunatics everywhere.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
Other than the fact that a link from slashdot is indistinguishable from a DoS attack, why would the head of Sys-Con lie about this? Wouldn't he sound a lot more noble saying "We fired O'Gara because she offended our readers" than saying "We had to get rid of the bitch to stop the DoS attack"?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
instead of living off of others?
I do. Those were good days, back before the Emperor.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Dvorak is going to score big on this article, though, because it's going to get page impressions out the wazzou. Slashdot has linked to an article that: 1) Tells us nothing more. 2) Has enough flame-inducing tone (but not substance -- if you're looking for it you won't find it here) to cook the lunatic masses. 3) Will help Dvorak "prove" his point -- all he needs is some lame email from this written by someone who didn't read the whole thing. Move along, these are not the droids you're looking for.
-== FeriCyde Chat ==-
Remember, LinuxWorld's "staff" wasn't paid. So with no pay and no control, of course they quit. "Quitting" is barely a meaningful concept in a situation like that.
IMHO, the worst think that happened in the personal computer world was the appearance of a strong leader in the form of Bill Gates and Microsoft. MS corralled the PC industry and dominated it.
In the build up to the MS dominance was a great deal of talk about the need for a leviathan that would dominate and curtail the computer industry. We got what the pundits wished for.
What the computer industry needs is a framework that allows development on multiple fronts.
That people develop rivalries or have egoes is really not a problem. The communitarian belief is that we will have paradise when everyone has denied their ego. If no-one had egoes, then we would all be zombies. The existance of feud between two linux pundits really is not a problem. Nor is the fact that different businesses want to define their place in the market.
The fact that there's too many ideologues like me who want to bubble on about our ideologies is annoying, but not quite a category killer. Although it is a sign of problems in the linux community. Personally, I had a ton of ideas I wanted to develop. I've looked at open source as a way to bring some small new businesses into fruition, but really only see pitfalls and dead ends in linux development. Not being able to see a way to participate in open source software development that does not leave me destitute is a big problem.
It seems to me that the way for a business community to thrive there needs to be a way for the members of the community to invest their time and resources into the community, and receive returns for that investment. Historically, the best way to do that has been with the establishment of property rights.
The last thing open source needs is another leader. It needs a stronger business framework where people are making money and thriving.
So, reading through the google cache version of the story, it looks like we have a old lady Jehovah Witness who is running a legal site and who does not want to be seen/quoted/interviewed/etc.
Either Pamela James is a complete media newb (which is possible) or she really is a front. There's no way that you can put together the Groklaw site and take a position in a case as big as SCO/Linux and not expect people to question your bona fides. I mean really, how do you run a blog/news site and not expect people out there to fact check your ass when you start taking sides?
So, yeah - it makes sense to see who exactly is running this site and if they are a legitimate news source/analyst/whatever.
I think O'Gara is a muckraker, no doubt. But, that doesn't mean there is no muck to rake here. I don't get why people are upset that this information was published. If you run with the big dogs you better be ready for the follow up and clearly Groklaw isn't ready for primetime.
Is that a tricky question?
Yeah, he's starting a flamefest, but take a moment to look at it from his perspective:
-Dvorak needs to generate traffic and the old-style of technology reporting is not doing it. He can't just write about new technology any more because fewer people are reading that.
-Dvorak gets his ideas for stories from PR people. The PR hacks are still trying to give him "new technology" stories that don't generate traffic. This is the high-paid variety of PR reps, so we're talking MS, Adobemedia, Intuit. And what's really new from them anyway?
-Dvorak doesn't want to know about Linux because MS has indirectly paid his bills for so long he can't tell which way the wind is blowing.
-Linux is not ready for guys like Dvorak and WSJ Mossberg (sp?) IMHO they tend to be the last one's give a technology a positive review after so many others of their peers have already done so. Linux also needs a high-paid PR company and deep-pockets advertising budget to convert guys like Dvorak. By then, Microsoft will probably have it's own Linux distro.
This is really good news though. It means that the "Linux story" is going way up the media chain. It's really different and powerful. Otherwise, it wouldn't have warranted a single comment from Dvorak.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
And if she did that, you freaks still wouldn't believe her, you'd call her an actor or a fast-talking employee or what the fuck ever.
Face it, nothing PJ can say or do is ever going to convince people like you. And here's why: if IBM (or whoever, perhaps the Illuminati) can organize a front in the form of Groklaw and keep it a secret for this long, they can easily organize a faceman to handle an interview and pretend to be PJ from Groklaw. So there's no reason for her to even try to appease you. There are better things to spend time doing.
As long as you think your conspirators have unlimited power to conspire, no one can prove to you that they don't exist. There's always some little bit of doubt, no explanation is ever quite good enough.
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
No, it's a "We should be able to say whatever we want without you guys calling us on it and getting us kicked!"-call.
Dear John,
Welcome. You are the next crackpot to join the fray. Unfortunately, the entry fee is a bit high. Judging from your article, it is ok to post someones personal information on the internet. So, please reply to this post, with your real address, your mothers address, pictures of your house, your car registration numbers, and pictures of your children. Then you can say that it does not matter.
Spack.
Was there any real DoS attack on Sys-con? Or did they just get slashdotted? If you post inflammatory material, you should expect to get singed.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
Does anybody know where I can read the original article that O'Gara wrote? I can't find it anywhere; all I can find are stories talking about it and making vague references. I am curious what was actually written in the article.
I always thought once something got onto the web it was there forever, but even with the controversy and massive flap it's like the article just vanished completely!
One of the biggest issues that face the linux community is having a central focus. Many linux supporters have tunnel vision when it comes to their fanatical belief that what they are using is "The Way". I myself am a systems administrator with over 15 years unix experience. Taking that into account I do use linux, unix (Tru64 and solaris) and bsd. Its not which one is the best because there is no such thing. Each operating system has its srong points and its bad points. Its all about knowing what they are and taking advantage of the good points to offer a reliable and quality service to your employer/customer/mates mum or whatever.
Got a question about UNIX ask it here : Unix/xBSD Forum
Journalism in America died years ago. All it's about now is finding the appropriate outlet that will validate one's views. (Fox news for example)...
Dvorak isn't a journalist, he's now a media whore who used to be a journalist.
A.
Does the Linux community really need a leader? I'll argue that one of the strengths, is the lack of a leader. Why is there always an assumption that every group needs a leader? I'll represent my oen opinion, thankyou, I don't need a leader to do it for me.
B.
I think Dvorak is happy being a pundit. I haven't really seen a struggle toward leadership in him. Just MHO.
C.
I agree with you 100%
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
There's the matter of journalistic integrity. Attack PJ's claims all you want. Take her to task over every single inaccuracy you find, or over every leave leap of logic she makes. That's dialog, that's debate.
Snooping around to find her address and religion serves no purpose as far as the SCO case goes. I don't think it's right that we go around seeing an unethical act and then saying "Oh well, that's the way it works."
The point of all of this is that O'Gara didn't check any "side" of the debate, she merely tried to put PJ in a bad light, and hope that there were sufficient numbers of fallacious thinkers that would go "Hmmm, PJ's a JW, that must mean she's wrong." It's ugly, and worse, it's meaningless. O'Gara isn't a muckraker, she's just a mean-spirited individual who wanted revenge because she was caught in a relevant misdeed on her reporting of the SCO case.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Why is Dvorak specifically pointing the finger at Linux "extremeists". Every operating system has it's fringe members, from Mac OSx, through Workbench, and even *gasp* Windows - here's a perfect example of the latter group
Sunday you're Thinking Different, Monday you're a huge tool, paying too much and waiting to think like everyone else.
Why do people confuse articles with editorials? He's not reporting news, he's voicing his opinion.
Yep. And with an opinion like that, he's a real cocksucker. That's my opinion.
Of course, most of us have known for a long time that Dvorak is a dick. He's been trolling professionally for a long, long time. Most of this doesn't come as a surprise to me....but I'll admit that I was caught completely off-gaurd by his nonchalant attitude toward MOG's article. I guess I just didn't expect him to come right out and say "I'm the kind of guy who thinks a journalist can and should do absolutely anything to get readers." I mean...I knew from reading his articles and columns that he believed that, but I really didn't expect him to admit it.
Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
Ever wonder if Dvorak is evaluated based on how many people click the page two link? It's obvious the editors are counting how many comments he gets, because he wont shut up about the comments sections.
I'm not sure but just to be on the safe side I'm not commenting over there. After this horrible keyboard he released (see Dvorak Simplified Keyboard) that was anything but simplified he owes me!
Dvorak is losing my respect of late. He has said some elightening things in the past, but the past 10 or so articles is showing the fact that he's losing touch with the industry.
What MOG did wasn't so bad. He's seen worse.She didn't violate any ethics. People are just too easily offended today.
There is such a thing as "moral outrage" and that is what is being expressed by people objecting to MOG's article.
But John doesn't understand that. John only sees page hits. And page hits are good.
...when it comes to criticizing him and so called other 'tech-pundits', as I did a few months ago on my weblog - when I proclaimed the title 'tech pundit' as being completely insulting and off-base for what his 'journalism' (and I use that word loosely) really is.
Apparently he can dish it out, but can't take it.
-K
The PC Weenies: 11 Years of Online Tech 'Too
Huh, metajournalism by a no-longer-relevant author about a fringe columnist I never cared about in the first place. Interesting like a remicrowaved burrito from two days ago.
Also, the linked site has some nice JS kung fu to pop up ads. Sweet, I'll be going back there...not.
FTA:
It may be that this is actually a deep Astroturf PR campaign orchestrated by Microsoft to discredit open source and Linux.
Yeeaaahhhh.....that's the ticket: PJ isn't a stooge for IBM as O'Gara would purport. She's a stooge for MICROSOFT! Yes! That's it! Microsoft pays...no, no, wait, Microsoft invents PJ and has this so called "journalist" post some seemingly insightful but in hindsight clearly superficial and superfulous pro-Linux articles to gain acceptance and credibility among the Linux wackos. Now they pay O'Gara to pretend to aggrevate "PJ" with real and veiled threats, which sends PJ -- and therefore all of the Linux wacko sheep -- spiraling into oblivian and the entire Linux community implodes under its own weight.
That, my friend, is some solid investigative reporting.
Hmmn, in the olden days of the 1950 through perhaps 1980 she'd have been drummed out of the profession as morally unfit.
This century I hope she's charged. I certainly would (here in Canada it's an indictable offence. I have no idea about NJ).
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
I don't give a fuck about PJ's phone number.
MOG published PJ's MOTHER'S phone number.
Show where ANYONE here has gone that far before.
If anyone is an expert on writing articles for the sole purpose of creating contraversy and increasing readership, it's Dvorak.
Sometimes I wonder if he even bothers to read some of that outrageous crap he writes.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Does anybody buy PC Magazine anymore?
I used to, years ago, but with the Internet, who needs it?
We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
The site owners respond by pulling the article and (sort of) apologizing for the whole thing.
And this is an example of the Linux community imploding?
It looks to me like and example of many people, once the facts were presented to them, stepping up and doing what they considered to be the Right Thing.
It's also an example of the potential power of collective action in support of SCO critics. Something that should have people in Lindon and Redmond shaking in their boots a little bit.
Finally, it's an example of what can happen on the net. The truth is that MOG should have never posted that information in that manner, and the pictures took the Creepy factor off the scales.
If John C Dvorak doesn't think this kind of invasion of privacy is a bad thing, let him post his address and phone number (work info will do) as well as pics of his mom's house and her address on the internet.
Because of message boards and email and the existance of many interested and engaged people online, people were able to quickly respond to the article, and influence its removal.
There was no Centralized Authority telling people what to do - no one was paid to take the actions they did. And when complaints were made about MOG's latest fiasco, information began to come to light that others associated with a company she provided content for have been voicing many complaints about her for months.
Far from the implosion to chaos that Dvorak apparently sees, what actually happened seems more like at least a partial restoration of civlity and order.
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
...you're one of the paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.
Actually if you really are, you're probably still running some flavor of AmigaDOS on bizarro hardware today and were more offended by "waning days" than "paranoid crackpot"...
Oh just mod me offtopic and get over with it.
So it's about degrees of violation then? You sir, are on a very slippery slope.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I don't think we're generating more lunatics today compared to yesteryear. I just think that now it's easier to give crackpots a voice.
Personally, I can't imagine any sane reasons why MOG took up this crusade versus PJ, but given that people are free to say anything that doesn't harm other people or their rights, I was okay to just read let her articles be. That last one, however, was sickening as it was publishing private information, the very act of which could result in greater harm than it could any conceivable service. Newspapers don't print out what a person's race or religious belief is if it's not relevant to the issue. If it were relevant to the issue, MOG certainly left it hanging too much.
Going back to zealots, it's sad really that these same nuts (possibly society's misfits) are the same ones who pour their effort to being good at this technology that they're the ones who can be most vocal. Unfortunately, many of them are misfits for a reason: their sense of right has been seriously warped by their perceived castigation. Perhaps it started out because they were misunderstood and that quickly turned to contempt. The fact that they were misunderstood just goes to show that they're poor at communicating even now.
Considering Zonk posted 3 out of the last 4 Dvorak articles... you're right. He should put him on his Christmas list.
O'Gara would do well to read Dvorak and learn how to generate hits, money, and readership by following Dvorak's lead.
O'Gara's stalking of PJ is inefficient and wastes resources. Note how Dvorak doesn't even TRY to use facts, just throws out a bunch of baseless opinions. Note how Dvorak embraces controversy by implicating the entire Linux community, calling us all nutjobs and extremists, even though a majority of Linux users outside of Slashdot probably don't even know who O'Gara or PJ is. O'Gara should note how Dvorak consciously ignores the main point of the controversy (stalking of PJ by O'Gara), and thereby firing up a bunch of self-righteous anger. His coup de gras is putting the blame on Linux users-- red meat for the Microsofties, and just making Linuxians see red. Everybody wins!
You are not a Jedi yet, Ms. O'Gara.
Who is RTFM and when will he help me with Unix?
O'Gara has had inside information on several occasions. The most plausible scenario is that she has some inside connection with SCO. She may not be a "paid shill," but there is a connection.
> Never heard of Paparazzi before?
Princess Di sure did.
Its sort of funny.
I have gotten to the point that rather than read Dvorak's actual rants.
I just read some of the responses here instead and then move along.
The weirdest thing I've seen lately has been the craziness provoked by a feud between tech writer Maureen O'Gara of LinuxGram/Linux Business News and her apparently bitter rival, blogger Pamela Jones (PJ) of Groklaw. It began some time back when the two exchanged barbs over intimations that Jones was somehow a stooge for IBM in the SCO-Linux battle and that O'Gara was somehow a stooge for SCO. You can see where this is headed.
So over the past week O'Gara tracked down and photographed PJ's home and PJ's mother's home and posted pics in her column, with veiled accusations that the entire Groklaw site is a front for IBM in its battle with SCO. Once this article appeared, all hell broke loose in the Linux community, with editors scrambling. There was removal of the offending article with apologies all around. Then came accusations of this and that; staffs of editors quitting in protest; publishers befuddled; veiled threats of lawsuits; vituperative attacks on multiple parties, including the LinuxWorld publisher, editors, O'Gara, and PJ; several worldwide denial-of-service attacks on LinuxWorld's parent company, Sys-Con Media; calls to Interpol; O'Gara's "firing"; and a flamestorm on Slashdot and elsewhere.
Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides.
Although her article was removed, you can usually find it on the Google cache (an interesting situation if you think about it), and I'm sure someone will mirror the piece eventually. Whatever the case, I've seen this feud become ridiculous and invasive, but I've seen worse on network TV with less-public figures than PJ. I would have paid no attention to the whole thing if I represented the collective thoughts of the Linux community. What difference does it make?
First let's get a few things straight. All of O'Gara's assertions are nutty. And I'm not talking about the yet-to-be-proven assertion that PJ is a 60-year-old dowager stooging for IBM. That's just ludicrous on the surface. Yet that is what is claimed.
First of all, IBM has lawyers, and it sure doesn't need to have someone find out via the discovery process that it's fronting a Web site about this case. That would simply never happen. Besides, IBM is not that clever. There are also enforced policies against this sort of thing.
It's wrong to assume that IBM expected the SCO battle to drag out like this from the outset. Unlikely! And I should mention that just because I, for example, developed an early timeline of the SCO history doesn't mean I'm a stooge for SCO or IBM either.
That said, the Linux community figures that O'Gara is being paid by SCO or Microsoft or someone bad. Again, if this were so, and if it was ever proven or stumbled on during the discovery process (nothing to take lightly), it would be a disaster for the litigation chances of the company doing the paying. It just wouldn't be worth the risk. It appears to me that O'Gara is just being overly provocative to get readers. And apparently it doesn't take much provocation, as the Linux community is slowly evolving into a state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga. "Too nutty even for the Mac community? We welcome you!"
Now these lunatics are issuing death threats? I can tell you that my mere mentioning of any of this will result in incredibly hateful attempted postings on this forum and on my moderated blog. What is wrong with these people?
If anything is going to kill Linux and the open-source movement, it's the presence of certifiable lunatics in the ranks representing the users. It may be that this is actually a deep Astroturf PR campaign orchestrated by Microsoft to discredit open source and Linux. It sure seems like something weird is going on.
I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. Once Linux gets the image as the OS for the criminally insane, it's a dead duck. Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed.
I mod down pyramid schemes in sigs.
According to the wiki article, the composer is distantly related to the keyboard guy, but the journalist is not, afaik. Interesting to note that in this case the term Dvoraks referring to all three is unpronouncable, because the composer went by the Czech pronunciation (with an elided Z in it) and the other two use the American pronunciation (English phonetic more or less).
Six score characters.
Brevity being wit's soul
I have enough space.
As to your use of advocating Windows over Linux being trolling, but Linux over Windows being OK, I think that it can be taken both ways. If you advocate windows over linux using a bunch of FUD in the manner that MS does, then yes, I'd say that's blatant trolling.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to something a lot simpler and with a much narrower scope than what you're looking at. While both Dvorak and O'gara are certainly allowed their opinions of anything and anyone, being a journalist and a member of that community puts a higher standard on them; to be fair and impartial and willing to look at things from every angle, which is something that neither of them seems to have grasped or barring that, they seem to ignore.
I have no regrets, this is the only path.
My whole life has been "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS"
MOG did, everyone else did not.Hardly. MOG violated journalistic ethics by publishing the address of someone who was NOT involved in the "story" she was after.
You claimed: So, now it is up to you to match the information published by the "tech community" with the information published by MOG.
If MOG published MORE information, then MOG has exceeded the bounds adhered to by the "tech community".
I have shown that she has.
You are trying to claim that she has not.
If you cannot substantiate your claim, then MOG has exceeded the limits that others have adhered to.
End
of
story
Buh bye.
Really. Every few months Dvorak stirs up the shit-pot to keep his name in the techie press/blogs. He never shits on the Corporate Masters though, because, well, that just don't pay.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
As a member of Dvorak's other "nutty" community (Macs), I've noticed that, far from becoming the "OS for the criminally insane," the Linux community has learned from the SCO lawsuit that it can handle legal challenges with skill. I've been particularly impressed with the expertise shown on PJ's website. It's certainly better than anything I recall from the pen of Dvorak.
Perhaps Slashdot should develop a "Yawn Rating" for stories that don't deserve the attention they get. I'd rate Dvorak's at Four Yawns. It'd get five but for the fact that the LinuxWorld story itself is rather interesting.
--Mike Perry, Untangling Tolkien, Seattle
Actually, she published her mother's address, not her phone number. The phone number was PJ's (assuming it's the right PJ) and came from a press release. Admittedly, this is splitting hairs.
Slashdot needs a flamebait category/cul-de-sac for the ever growing number of articles such as this one. Sure there might be some utility in keeping tabs of what idiots like Dvorak are saying, but it should be clearly marked and compartmentalized as such.
It appears to me that O'Gara is just being overly provocative to get readers....I can tell you that my mere mentioning of any of this will result in incredibly hateful attempted postings on this forum and on my moderated blog. What is wrong with these people?
Pot. Kettle. Kettle, this is Pot.
If anything is going to kill Linux and the open-source movement, Ahem, that should read "If anything is going to kill GNU/Linux and the Free Software movement, it's the presence of certifiable lunatics in the ranks representing the users,.... or, anyone gives a crap what self-fallating bloviators say. Oh, btw, nice attempt at guilt-by-association.
GNU/Linux has many interested parties, from fan-boys, to professional geeks, marketing nutters, and other marketroids like yourself. Why on earth would you think that this constitutes a "implosion of the community"? Other than your looking for page-impressions with overly provacative headlines. Please, unless you consider yourself an empty headed nim-whit member of the semi-literate masses, ignore this man.
IN short, suck it Dvorak. Your a fool's fool. It might win you kudos in a room full of stuffed shirted shiney-pants, but I havnt time to hand-hold people around your worthless baying.
Let see how paranoid you'd get if we were to 'obtain' your home address/phone number, mother's (or other close relative's residence), etc. We can publish it on Slashdot as 'journalism', right? That cool with you?
...and by the way, your keyboard sucks rocks too!
Every once in a while you've impresseed me with your articles - years ago I used to read your stuff in PC Magazine and agreed with a lot of it. But I think you're off track here.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
cheers
I don't feel like it...
You cannot possible have enjoyed usng any other system other than microsoft windows. We proved it with a spreadsheet at last years MS lovefest. Our TV newscasters are the most knowlegable persons, and have been given access to the divine insights of the master's EEE strategy. Therfore you simply must acknowlege that all previous experience with any other system was a fantasy concocted from rejection of today's society norms. Deviant behaviour and use of other OS platforms is not only anti-social, it's a threat to all humanity. Adopt windows and cure your ailing way's before it's too late.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha!
gasp, gasp
hahahahaha
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
Can we please get a seperate category for Dvorak editorials so I can filter them out?
Thanks,
Bryan
So the question here is, which side are the lunatics and fanatics on? The community rises up against mudslinging journalism, Sys-con editors resign when it becomes clear that their CEO is a sociopath, and these are the signs of a community imploding? Standing up for your principles is fanatical? And of all of the incidents that he could have chose to support the idea that the Linux community is full of nutcases, he chooses this one?
Dvorak's really stooped low on this one. The reason is clear: If more communities responded to sleazy journalistic behavior the way the Linux community has in this case, he'd be out of a job.
I think I'll email him now:
I mean really, how do you run a blog/news site and not expect people out there to fact check your ass when you start taking sides?
The nice thing about Groklaw... the facts are usually right there on the site for you to check. Every released court document in the case is right there, available. People actually volunteer their time to transcribe the documents from paper to digital form.
PJ's only bona fide is that she was a paralegal.
Groklaw is a site with coverage of court cases affecting Linux. It is only a "legal site" in that it covers legal proceedings. PJ is not a lawyer, that is stated up front.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
That is the way these "journalists" handle it.
Since we cannot see the actual email, he is free to describe it in any way he desires.
Given that he has already characterized the Linux community as "criminally insane" and "lunatics", you can be sure that he will be portraying the emails as from such individuals.
BUT you will also NOT see a SINGLE case of any email being forwarded to the cops/FBI for legal action regarding communicating a threat.
Not
a
single
one
.
Meanwhile, if it were you or I who received an emailed death threat, we would have the appropriate message and headers carried to the local authorities for investigation and possible arrest.
No arrests will be made.
No criminal cases will be opened.
No email will be sent to the authorities.
But much will be said in his articles about the tone of the threats he received for his unbiased and fact-filled article about Linux extremists.
Today is the 16th of May, 2005 and it is 11:25am Pacific time.
That is my prediction.
Blablabla...
1) are you comparing the acts of irresponsible 14 years old linux zealots with those of a journalist exercising her profession?
2) let's naively separate people in two camps: linux and anti-linux. Are you saying that if someone in the linux camp (irresponsible kid) does something bad to someone in the anti-linux camp (DiDio), then it's OK for anyone in the anti-linux camp (MOG) to do the same to anyone in the linux camp (PJ) ?
Now I'm not one to promote violence in any form, but I gotta' tell ya', this little e-soap opera between Dvorak and /. and Linux over the whole O'Gara/SCO mess is just way too not to pay attention to. I mean sure, people are certainly entitled to their own opinions, but to throw around verbal attacks like this is just ridiculous, and, sad to say about myself, ridiculously fun to listen to. I can see now why people watch those daytime shows where a daughter's son is cheating with her mother on her father - I swear it's like watching fireworks.
Of course, by posting this, I submit my own little cause of the problem. What a mess.
~ ><>
It's sad & it's true. There are many reasoned voices within SlashDot but most of the posts are knee-jerk reflex responsives that are sophomoric and easily predicted. I don't always agree with Dvorak but I do on this one.
http://www.busyweather.com/
I remember a flaming article against the Amiga and its community from this same idiot about 17 years ago. His ideas and the way he present them make him a troll with no credibility.
http://www.xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/_fastfood_d ir/unixdead_j_dvorak.html
/bin/pr -p -t" or any other such nonsense. So they had to build a performance-sapping shell around the system, code name: SLOW. So much for the UNIX world takeover. I figured that would be the last I heard of it.
The following is from the August '86 issue of the DEC Professional, pilfered from http://catalog.com/hopkins/unix-haters/etc/unix-is -dead.html
Unix is Dead! Wanna Fight??
John C. Dvorak
Summer is over and a plague of UNIX programmers is upon us. College kids, wet behind the ears; greenhorns, rubes. They pour out of various campuses talking about ROFF and ED and pipes and paths, and they look for work. They're impressed with themselves. After all, they've learned the language of a secret society. If they're from Berkeley, they've learned the secret language of a secret society.
They all program in C, and wherever they go they change the prompts on whatever computer they get their hands on so it resembles a UNIX machine. They creative ones go into whatever operating system they have to use and find a symbol or token table; then they change the commands to look like UNIX. The *more* creative ones customize the commands further so they are even more cryptic and weird than UNIX. Whether these people ever do any real work is a mystery.
"Yes, weeell, to list my files I merely type P; MJOI."
"P; MJOI?? What they heck does that mean?"
"It just so happens that if I put my coffee cup on the keyboard and rock it a certain way, that's what it will type; so, I do that to list my files!"
While it's good to see these kids doing something other than wasting quarters on endless games of Pole Position, I'm not so sure UNIX dabbling is much better for society.
I feel this way, not so much because UNIX is an old-fashioned OS that has a special place reserved in hell, but because its time has passed. UNIX is dead, but no one bothered to claim the body. It lives like a zombie on college computers and serves as a gateway to all sorts of weird networks.
UNIX haunts marketing men, too. I remember when Fortune Systems was getting started. That's about the time that a bumper crop of college-bred UNIX drones was dumped like mulch into the marketplace. They all were singing the praises of UNIX to the low end of the market.
So, I went to this strategy demonstration given by one of the vice presidents of Fortune Systems. These guys surely were ahead of their time, and it was a perfect example of having too much bad information. The Fortune 16:32 (or was it 32:16? In either case it looked like a biblical reference...) said unto us: "Come to me for thine microprocessor and spend, spend, spend!" it was the first camel of microcomputers. Like a horse designed by committee (aka camel), the Fortune was preceded by too much market research. A lot of this was skewed by the hordes of UNIX maniacs running through the valley waving the UNIX flag.
First of all, I was shown a slide that clearly showed the Motorola 68000 as the world's greatest microprocessor.
The 68000 beat everything. Personally, I can't remember what it was pitted against -- probably the 8080, the 6502 and a 4004. Whatever, this was the chip to use.
Then the company did some market research and, because writers, pundits, researchers, secretaries, publishers, and programmers all said that UNIX was the next hot operating system, they chose it for their own little machine.
The UNIX community yelled, "Yea!" But, they continued to use free university-provided time, and none of the UNIX hackers bought the little UNIX boxes. Well, that was okay, it was intended to be a business machine, anyway.
Ooops! Gee, it seems that the businessmen couldn't cope with UNIX and "$ ls
No
We get a much greater feeling for what they want when Dorvak claims,
If anything is going to kill Linux and the open-source movement, it's the presence of certifiable lunatics in the ranks representing the users. ... I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. Once Linux gets the image as the OS for the criminally insane, it's a dead duck. Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed.
Now there's some wishful M$ thinking. Free software just goes away because they can make it look bad. It's been their fantasy means of competing from day 1. They know they can't make a better piece of software, so name calling is all they have to work with. Pathetic.
Once again, of course, it's not going to work because it's not supported by reality. Free software authors and users are far more relaxed and much less assnine than M$ fanboys. People who give their code away for free and invite both criticism and participation are much nicer than defensive dorks who want your money. People who experiment with software and judge things by objective standards of merit and perceived benefit are by definition less fanatical than marketroids who never leave the start menu. Normal people can see this. What they won't see is the strange, irrational and threatening people Ballmer imagines and tries to create.
Create, you might ask. Sure, create by harassment. If M$ is not above spamming death threats out to it's own supporters, do you think they are above harassing their detractors? Wanna bet how many of the flame bait posts here come from Redmond? The themes have all the flavors of M$; obfuscation, lack of originality, non free is reasonable and has a place, IE is great, XP is solid, blah blah blah. Yeah, I've gotten death threats in responses to my posts here. I also get between 50 and 100 spams a day, which started soon after posting to a local LUG. If it were not for spamassassin and kmail, I might indeed feel harassed.
Microsoft has the means, money and ethics to do these kinds of things. Microsoft's long astroturf history points in this direction, and they have only their own behavior to blame when people connect the dots. I can't prove that they do, but I'm not going to be surprised when they get busted, just like they have in so many other cases.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Without crackpots this community wouldn't be viable. I mean, who else would spend endless hours devoted to creating UNIX all over again?
I'm posting anonymously for reasons that'll become blindingly obvious in about three sentences.
My employer asked me to do this. We are involved with a particular industry that is rampant with Old Fogeyism. As I tend to rant anyhow, I posted a rant on a highly visible mailing list. My boss came to me and, to my horror, prodded me to keep flaming away. Flaming customers, mind you. Not usually a good business strategy...
I had my reservations, as an old-time Troll. I couldn't see the benefit. But my boss has an understanding of business that I lack, and I've learned to trust him. So I did it. I was my usual asshole self. I put fifteen years' experience in net.flaming into a post that was factually sound and very logical, but with my inner asshole coming out like Fran Drescher's voice in a granite cathedral. (Not that you have to dig deep to find the inner asshole where I'm concerned, mind you). It was so offensive, that only the people who already agreed with me already could agree with what I said, no matter how sound my logic was.
The next day, the boss told me: Now apologize to everyone.
Since then, I can actually see the repercussions. Many of them are just ripples from other things happening off in the distance, but the effect is clear: It was a kick in the ass to an industry that needed it, and suddenly people are wondering why that asshole on the mailing list was so damned mad. They're digging deeper.
You see this with SCO. Whenever SCO says something stupid and outlandish, the Free Software community will retaliate with venom, but others will also dig deeper to see: Do they have a point, and if so, how can we prevent this? Groklaw has become useful for this very reason -- for this purpose of getting the facts straight. Linus changed how he maintained the kernel. A lot of due diligence is being done on GNU/Linux that might never have been done anyway.
The whole O'Gara situation is causing people to look and think critically about the relationship between publishers, editors and content who haven't looked at such things before.
I was surprised to see the results of my little public flamewar. I wasn't surprised that people were pissed off; I was surprised that there was a genuine positive and creative response to it. My boss was fucking brilliant.
It shows that provocative writing does have a point from time to time. It is the little ego of the industry, goading people out of their complacency. Thank God this shit is not the only motivation we have, but it does have that use.
I thought the quote in the leader to this article was offensive, but it got me RTFA, and when I RTFA, I have to admit I laughed. I am laughing at myself, a true blue anti-MS zealot, when he says about the Linux community "Too nutty even for the Mac community? We welcome you!" It hits close to home, but he's right. I -am- too nutty for the Mac community.
So I think it's a bit more useful than just a scam to draw enough eyes that advertisers are happy; columnist journalism can occasionally benefit the industry.
Although most of the time, we're just trolling assholes.
No, I'm saying quite the opposite. That's its not OK in either case and that to snicker about it in one instance and publicly condemn in the other is beyond hypocritical.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
> If anything is going to kill Linux and the open-source movement, it's the presence of certifiable lunatics in the ranks representing the users. ...
> I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. Once Linux gets the image as the OS for the criminally insane, it's a dead duck. Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed.
If it didn't kill fundamentalist religion, it's not going to kill Linux.
Dvorak is a flack for the real "mob": the Microsoft mafia that runs his world of suppliers and column echoers. He's against fellow journalists refusing to close ranks with a hack abusing their credibility and ethics? He stands up for "party line" journalism, under control of editors who ignore their writers' committment to the facts? He's welcome to join those dangerous zombies - in the unemployment line. Or maybe at some bigger corporate PR shop, like the NY Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN... they've all got plenty of room for name-brand corporate stenographers.
--
make install -not war
The ONLY substantiated evidence is that the cops were called when MOG was harassing PJ's mom.Be careful, that could be taken as a "threat" by one of those "journalists".
And that is the biggest problem with these "journalists".
They don't know the tech or the industry, so they attempt to get by on National Enquirer style sensationalism and rumour.
Read John's column again and you'll see him reporting the allegations of "death threats" as if they were established fact.
Pure sensationalism and sensationalism can be had from any "journalist". It is harder to maintain readership for a sensationalist rag than for a real tech magazine.
I wasn't even talking to you. I knew your post was a dig at the absurdity of fronts and conspiracies, I was talking to the AC who thought it was real.
Back off, asswipe, I'm on your side here.
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
Don't forget the Atari ST. It was _way_ better than the Amiga... :-)
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From the article... "Oh, brother. In the olden days, O'Gara would have been given a medal for generating readership. But in today's world of the so easily offended, she's apparently let go instead, and things calm down as the hissy fit subsides."
That sounds like progress to me!
Everyone, including Dvorak, seems aware that her journalism is crap and is innapropriate (to say the least) so why does he seem to prefer to see that sort of stuff rewarded? Is he that sort of journalist himself?
stupid typo.
You got to love journalists. They want power with no responsibility!
Take a look at Newsweek. They got one tip and checked not facts then publish a story the looks like it got people killed! When the Challenger blew up the camera crew kept shooting the faces of the crews families while the watched there loved ones die. Now O'Gara chases down some on and invades there privacy for no real reason. And the Linux community is upset? Dvorak feels this makes them the crack pots? My goodness for all the stupid things I have seen on Slashdot this has got to be one of few examples of justified moral outrage and human compassion. The fact that Linux community said in one voice "We do not care what religion she is. We do not care that she takes care of her elderly mother, we do not care what PJ looks like. We only care about facts."
Maybe Mr. Dvorak should take a lesson from this. You maybe free to write what you want but we also have the right to hold you responsible for the quality of what you write.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
That's just the point, John: it's about the readers. First, she did not generate readership. If anything, she annoyed the sites patrons and potential patrons. Second, why in heaven's name would a person write in a public newssite if they didn't care about their reader's opinion? If MOG's not getting the sympathy she was hoping for on this site, perhaps she should find some other medium.
By the way, I've read most, if not all, of Pamela Jones' articles that mention Ms. O'Gara and I can't recall coming across anything that indicated she was bitter. Defiant, perhaps, but not bitter. Plus, most of PJ's commentary are accompanied by court documents or follow-ups on other people's opinion on their firsthand viewing of court proceedings. MOG was doing the same thing albeit pro-SCO regardless of what actually transpired, then she all of a sudden attacks PJ's character instead of her opinions. Senseless.
Wikileaks, no DNS
Turns out that his benchmark of choice read the system clock - did something then subtracted 1 from 2 and reported the time to do an operation.
He apparently didn't notice that his computer was loosing 6 hours of time a day.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
I better summary quote from the article would be this one:
"I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. Once Linux gets the image as the OS for the criminally insane, it's a dead duck. Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed."
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Gee, that's reaching deep into the bag of tricks: insult one group by insulting another that's well-known for fanaticism.
m ag.html
s p
Here's Dvorak's own words about his Amiga:
http://www.cucug.org/amiga/aminews/1996/961003-pc
And only a few months ago, he was insulting the Mac community by comparing them to the Amiga:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1745930,00.a
So why bring up the Amiga? Seems like Dvorak likes to drag a stick across the cages of owners of computers whose market share never exceeds five percent, then uses it as evidence that they're rabid. Puhlease! It's not as if the Linux market is a unified entity.
Curator of the Jefferson Computer Museum http://www.threedee.com/jcm
If anything is going to kill Linux and the open-source movement, it's the presence of certifiable lunatics in the ranks representing the users.
Here is a clue: there are certifiable lunatics present in almost any random group of people that has more than maybe a hundred people in it. Human beings deal as best as they can with that reality through things like the police and the courts. If someone made death threats against O'Gara, it's a matter for the police and has nothing to do with Linux.
Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed.
Well, I guess it's the trash heap of history then, because no group of people has ever been able to get a handle on this. Why, we can't even get computer columnists making inflammatory remarks on matters they know little about to shut up, and those people are not even necessarily certifiable lunatics.
Can we please stop providing this idiot with Slashdot traffic? Please!
---
"The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple."
--Oscar Wilde
He made it perfectly clear that his #1 priority is to generate readership (as O'Gara did) no mather how many moral or ethical rules you are about to bend or break (just like O'Gara did).
The fact that the "Linux Community" holds its members to higher standards than John Dvorak, is, per se, a Good Thing.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
"Hmmm, PJ's a JW, that must mean she's wrong." It's ugly, and worse, it's meaningless.
No it is bigoted. Let's call a spade a spade. We are talking goose stepping, sheet wearing, thinks Archie Bunker was right bigot. If O'Gara had inferred that PJ was not to be trusted because she was African American or Jewish it would be no different, except more people would be out for her blood.
If I may go biblical for a moment. Judge the tree by the fruit.
Or as Bender would say, Dvorak and O'Gara, "Can bit my shiny metal ass!"
Sorry but this really really gets me steamed.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I mean, really... Aren't we (slashdot users, that is) supposed to be a bit savvy, or at least non-morons? To still listening to this guy is like taking advice from Edward Yourdon on software engineering. Come on...
Another shake-n-bake controversy courtesy of Mr. Dvorak. It's fun, you can do it too:
Those darn [insert community that threatens my business model] are [pick three]:
a) Insane
b) Violent
c) Strange and/or Hippy-Like
d) Destroying our American way of life
e) Frighteningly Over-Zealous
e) Part of organized crime
and they ought to be stopped and/or will come to an end due to [see above]. [insert repeatable sound bite that simultaneously insults community while reflecting your complete disconnection from reality]. It is fortunate that you the reader have a journalist of my talent and insight to warn you about them.
so slashdot doesn't give him the bucket load of hits?
AT leaST hE DOesN'T Seem tO HaVE A BROkEn CapSLOck
kEy AnYmOrE. That was really irritating.
Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
I wonder if Dvorak would congratulate Newsweek for drumming up readership..
the same guy who composed the "American" symphony. true... :)
I don't feel like it...
With insights like that, As Seen On TV's true identity must be John Dvorak.
Who am I to blow against the wind? -- Paul Simon
"You sirs are an embarrasment to Linux crackpots & lunatics everywhere."
Naw I just have a warped sense of humour. You want to really scare people. As ~20 year old be really really nice to people, and dress like you could kill them for breakfast. leather, studs, name it. You then can shock people who think your scum by being polite to them.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Actually Torvalds wife is/was a martial arts champion. Don't mess with the wife!!!!!
Linux community is a strange beast! But why cut on the Amiga? I loved my Amiga!
Speaking of Dvorak, I just saw his laptop down at Maaco getting masked. Something about a collision with an Ethics...
you forgot E and F.
...and O'Gara is probably the only F*** he can get.
The man's gotta Eat...
of tabloid trash journalists with the Underpants Gnome plan adapted to web journalism:
1. Steal some fame of another tabloid trash journalist's work by commenting on it
2. Stereotype all users of Linux by actions of a few extremists as being representative of all users of Linux
3. ??????
4. profit
John, why not write something newsworthy like you used to, before PC Mag became another pile of ads with a few mediocre product reviews and benchmarks tacked on?
This really ought to just be a categorical principle. Nothing by or about Dvorak goes on the front page. He's a slight step above O'Gara, but only a slight one. He *does not* deserve or warrant extra readers.
His argument is:
(1) Sure O'Gara tried to instigate stalkers to commit violence against PJ and/or her family.
(2) Sure O'Gara violated privacy rights and trespassed.
(3) Those hysterical "Linux fanatics" get worked up over the silliest things.
This matter is *not* about merely bad journalism, which O'Gara (and Dvorak) have been doing for a long time. OK, fine, publish another "study" that proves Linux will irradiate your brain, and Windows will bring you inner peace. Whatever. It's propoganda and fluff, but ultimately within free speech rights.
What O'Gara did is criminal incitement of violence, and probable RICO violations.
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You're assuming MoG published completely factual information. This may or may not be the case. That's what the civil suit will prove out. You're also assuming that what was published was not published in a libelous fashion. Again, this is what civil courts are for.
I'm coming from a position where I know I don't know all the facts and I don't even know what the outcome of any suit might be - but I know I'd examine my options if I were in the same situation. You're coming from a position where you've already got the outcome of any legal events lined up and pre-absolution for one side. That's not a wise place to be.
Got any more strawmen to burn?
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
Are you still reading this? You better not be.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Everyone here hates Dvorak, because he's older than everyone here, and he's been involved in the industry for longer than everyone here.
He's almost always RIGHT every time some Slashdot article that upsets everyone is posted.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Someone makes a veiled on line threat to an editors life and the life of her mother... It really can't be taken any other way, pictures of your mothers house the day before mothers day posted on the internet with the address to said house really can only be taken as an "I know where you live," style threat.
So, said threat is made... People are appalled that such a threat was made, they tell advertisers who said advertisers are associated with... Individuals independantly do this without being members of any sort of "Linux Community." As just normal decent human beings they ask for the editor of sys-con to remove said article and appoligize and fire the person responsible for this lunatic attack.
All PJ ever did was post court documents and point out the connections that people had, the timings of "articles" to the timings of when the companies actually publically stated the news, many times it seems that a few "select" "journalists were able to publish "facts" before those "facts" were known.
This is what O'Gara did wrong.
Yet, somehow this guy seems to think that an attack on an innocent editor and many brave people taking the right, decent and proper response as an attack by the lunatic fringe of the "Linux Community."
Obviously this is another FUD article attempting to paint Linux users as lunatics, when the opposite is quite true. The sad thing is that this conclussion about the linux lunatics doesn't even logically follow from the premises that he makes.
Basically his article is; an editor of a great linux site is threatened by an unethical journalist and a lot of individuals see this act and take independant action through proper channels smack said journalists down... therefore there are a lot of linux lunatics and people need to avoid linux.
WTF? how does this person manage to make this leap from the first part of the article to his conclusion?
And for that matter, aren't there serial killers and mass murders that have ran Windows before? Does that make them part of the "Windows Community?"
Aren't all humans part of a "Human community?" Aren't there a lot of lunatic humans? Like Dvark for instance? Does this mean we should avoid all humans? Kind of hard to do if you yourself are a human.
Aren't all computer users part of a "Computer using community?" Aren't there a lot of lunatic computer users? Does this mean we should avoid all computer users? Kind of hard to do if you yourself are a computer user.
In a decade we will have to read articles this bozo posts saying how he knew linux was going to win the whole time and how it would have never gotten to where it is without his support. Sad really... He'll probably call the people who point out the inconsitencies in his recollection of events lunatics too.
I don't even know who the audience for his article is. Trying to warn CxO's about the dangers of the "Linux Community?" Trying to teach the leaders of the Linux community how to exclude "lunatics?"
Well, good luck on both. CxO's only care about the bottom line and Linux helps with that in droves. The people who are leaders in the linux community lead by example. They don't preach, they code. Call it a technocracy if you will. They are too busy to even comment or read this absurd argument from such a sad sad bitter man.
What a happy thought. In the meantime, I'll just have to make do with reading your post at Cheerios time.
fD
It's lovely.
- Insightful for showing some rabaidness, or
- Funny for the coversation that I just saw.
Sadly, I did one here earlier, so I even have to post anon.Windbourne.
If Linux were "normal" commercial software, it probably would never have survived competing against the Microsoft Monopoly (many superior products have failed to compete) - it has only succeeded and grown because it is open source, which has made it too diffuse of a target for Microsoft (and others) to fight effectively with their normal corporate tactics.
On the other hand, being open source and free-as-in-freedom means that it has attracted a large number of the idealogical extremists in the computer industry. This idealogical extremism can indeed be irritating to "normal" users.
To continue to grow and gain wider usership, especially among average users and companies (which many of the extremists don't actually want, or at least don't care about), Linux distributions will need to take on some aspects of "normal" software while retaining its free-as-in-freedom underpinnings. It will be a challenging balance to acheive.
A little trolling, and two columns done and in the bank. Must be a nice life.
As opposed to the every other opinion columnist in the world, who never resort to using cheap tactics or tired topics as filler. Don't hate just because he's smart enough to get paid for it.
Oh, and nevermind the fact that he's right. Zealots are one of the biggest problems the Linux community has right now.
And apparently it doesn't take much provocation, as the Linux community is slowly evolving into a state of mob rule, with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.
That's the quote from the article.
He is not actually calling the Linux community crackpots. He's calling the freaks who go overboard frothing at the mouth and screaming heresey every other post (we all know at least one) the cheerleaders of the group. Probably because they are the most vocal.
What he is trying to point out is that these are the people that make the headlines and grab the press. They are not actually representative of the community, but they will be perceived that way by those on the outside. Muslims have the same issue; a loud and insane minority.
On another note...I remember the last days of the Amiga. BBSs in my area were full of Amiga vs. IBM troll fests. Some of the posts on this site are *extremely* reminiscent if those days. The difference being its the OS now and Linux is not anywhere near being dead...
Was he the guy with the split in half piano?
You need to know who a person is to judge the veracity of their information? That may help judge their motives, but truth can stand alone. Did you bother to look up the authors of your text books in school and research who they were? You don't need to know who someone is to judge the truth in their statements, just a brain.
Anonymous Cowards suck.
Actually newsweek told the truth when they ran that article. They never retracted the story, just appolgised for running the truth when they were threatened by the men in black. It's in reports that the government is hiding to avoid war crimes prosecutions for the hideous things they have done to the people in Guantanemo Bay.
Sort of like how Bush and his regeme keep saying that there they were lied to by the CIA about their evidence on the WMD. These lies are clearly shown in the Downing Street Memo. Or is the head of British Intelligence not credible enough for you? This Memo corraborates what a lot of other high ranking american officials have been saying for years.
between tech writer Maureen O'Gara of LinuxGram/Linux Business News and her apparently bitter rival, blogger Pamela Jones (PJ) of Groklaw.
Cat fight!!!!
(CNN) -- Newsweek magazine issued a retraction Monday of a May 9 report on the alleged desecration of the Quran at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
e ek.quran/
Here is the link http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/16/newsw
So where are your facts?
The statement that Newsweek never retracted the story is false.
I was careful to not to say that it never happened just that Newsweek has no proof and did no checking.
Just as you failed to check before you made your statment.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
So if I'm reading this right, Dvorak is saying that (a) O'Gara was wrong in what she was writing, (b) wrong in doing what she did and (c) just doing it to drudge (no pun intended) up a few more pageviews, and that (d) the "Linux community" was in the wrong (or, better yet, had "imploded" and turned into "paranoid Amiga user"s) for kicking her and her half-assed reporting to the curb.
Actually, I think his point wasn't actually about the right or wrong of O'Gara. It was more about the over-reaction of everyone and I whole-heartedly agree. People get way too bent out of shape or something as ridiculous as another persons choice in OS or whether they like this company or that.
I can't imagine what some of these people must be like when they are faced with a real issue in their life.
Of course, his opinion piece is sure to pull more over-reactions.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquistion!
Dvorak's taking a fringe minority of the Linux community and presenting them as the larger group.
Yet, isn't that what you just did to Journalists? Using Dan Rather or Jayson Blair to paint the whole.
I've been seeing a lot of shouting and yelling and screaming lately from people, accusing Journalists of anything and everything because they don't publish articles that 100% conform to your world view. It used to be bad, but it's getting really bad lately.
The Dan Rather and Newsweek examples are good ones. These are obviously politically driven attacks not designed to get the truth out, but to discredit the news agencies. Why?
It's interesting to look at the history of news in this country. It started out as partisan rant sheets. The SoandSo Democrat, the suchandsuch Republican newspapers. You've seen the names, ever wonder why? Go look at the history page of the Christian Science Monitor website.
The NY Times came along in the late 19th century as something different. To try to stand above this partisanship and just report the news. Now people are attacking these papers, claiming that by being even handed in their news, they are undermining their ability to publish their point of view. So now we're seeing a movement to push papers back towards the incredibly partisan rant pages of the 19th century.
I don't understand what positive purpose this serves, or how it's good for the Nation to move back progress. But that is what is happening. And even though you are obviously rightwing biased, you should know that the leftwing in America thinks the NYTimes is rightwing biased and they have reporters like Judith Miller to display as proof.
Anyway, I just thought it was interesting how you played along with this game, possibly without even knowing it yourself.
This issue is larger and broader than journalists. Something is going on which is allowing these beliefs to sink in with aspects of the public.
I stopped reading his crap fifteen years ago, and from the quotes in the comments I can see I haven't missed a thing. He was a content-free wanker then, and he is now.
As others have said, he gets paid for trolling. Move along, nothing to see.
Francois.
Perhaps it is unfair to tar an entire group of people by the actions or words of the most obnoxious few, but unfortunately that's reality, especially if the moderates in a group are completely drowned out by the insane.
What would Dvorak have written if the response to the O'Gara article was a sober, "That is stepping across the line." rather than the mass freak-out that ensued all over the web?
Whatever percentage of the Linux population are complete basket cases, they tend to be extremely loud, and abusive. People associate them with the Linux community at large. That may be unfair, but it is reality. Measured, moderate, sober people tend not to yell and scream a lot, so people don't hear them.
I have to admit, as much as I love computers, it is amazing to me how much energy is spent on sarcasm, abuse, and anger over an operating system when the world is shot through with real injustice, genocide, corruption, and authoritarianism.
Part of the problem is that the internet has destroyed the need for civility. There are few negative conesequences to being a boorish jerk, not to mention an insane raving lunatic, so many people have dispensed with politeness altogether.
The Linux world is hardly the only community that has its share of abusive jerks, but the fact that these people show up in any community doesn't really excuse what does go on in the name of Linux advocacy.
The vast majority of criticism leveled against overly strident Linux advocates I hear is by people who use other operating systems (there are exceptions of course). It would do a great service to Linux in general if those who are not busy actually developing in Linux would make a concerted effort to be friendly and diplomatic, and to help influence those in our community who are not, and who refuse to be civil and measured. We need to be more critical of these "zealots" from within our own community, if indeed they do not represent us. It isn't enough to be general about it. We should respond to every unfair flame and every immoderate, inconsiderate insult to demonstrate that these folks do not represent us.
If indeed they do not; I don't think they do.
You can get as angry at Dvorak as you want, but his perception of the Linux community as a whole of having a screw loose is one that is widely held. We can all complain about this and how unfair it is or we can do something to rectify it.
I should not have to tell people, "Yes, I absolutely love Linux but I'm not one of, you know, *those* people" who think Windows users have some kind of irredeemable character flaw."
Rather than counter-accusations, a simple retort to distorted arguments against Linux outlining the facts, or "I respectfully disagree and this is why," would go much farther than yelling, "FUD!" every time someone has a misperception or...heaven forfend...a different opinion about Linux than we do.
The internet in general could use a good solid dose of civility. I hurled epithets and insults like anyone else until I got bored of this behavior destroying the signal to noise ratio. Also, I realized that I wanted to be treated with respect and deference when I said something unintentionally stupid, which I have, and which I will do in the future.
And which, probably, all of you have.
The perceived rancor, unreasonableness, abusiveness, and zealotry in the Linux community does hurt it. It especially turns off people who are new to Linux and are told, when they post an understandably frustrated query to a support group, "You must be too stupid to use Linux," which is one of the worst, unfair things someone can say to someone just starting out.
When unethical journalists like Maureen O'Gara post a smear job, the best thing we can do is soberly and succintly object to it in a polite way, since outrage doesn't do anything to help anyone's cause. Outrage, while understandable, can be easily perceived as fanaticism.
I for one do not doubt that there are DOS attacks, or de
Any time I say anything about breats, I get modded funny (check my recent posts)
I have freaks! I did something right...
This is /. Do you honestly think anyone read his article before commenting?
I just happen to be from the last dieing days of the amiga, and I take offense to his characterizations of the amiga community in general.
The fact that he even mentioned it means he must have been in on it to a greater or lesser extent towards the amiga's end. If it's true that it takes one to know one, what does that say about him exactly?
Not sure why he would do that, but given his last interview I would dare to say that he didn't like at all how he had to let O'Gara go. It was the "Linux" community that forced him to do so, and maybe he didn't take it lightly. And there are also many possible scenarios that do not involve a DoS attack that could make it look as if one was happening (like the Slashdot effect).
I doubt John Dvorak knows for sure either, which may make it a good idea for him to keep his mouth shut.
In any case, what I can tell you, is that what a few people do does not make us all criminals. I am surely glad that those of us who wanted to pacifically raise their voice actually did so.
diegoT
Once upon a time, there were no user accounts, see. We had to type in our nicknames everytime we posted, and anyone could type in anything as anybody and you never knew who anyone was, and that's the way we liked it, dadgummit! We debated all kinds of heady intellectual ideals back then, not like you kids today with your flame wars and trolling. See, we knew that computers and the internet were going to change the world, the geekiest (meaning us) were going to be the new power elite (even if we hadn't, you know, actually done anything.) This was before most people had any idea about commercializing Linux or the Internet, before the Boom and the Crash, back when reading Wired was cool, Yahoo was a tiny little portal, Altavista was the search engine of choice and google was a number. All we had was dialup, mostly at 28.8k and the packets had to go uphill, through the snow, both ways. So it took too long to post nonsense, ya see? And we respected each other and only said nice things, not like you kids today.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Dvorak was fabulous at trashing OS/2 in his wisdomly backhanded way. So they've lined him up for Linux now.
Linus should be proud, they are pulling out the big guns.
I think "Finding your Inner Asshole" would be a great book, or at least an excellent seminar with box lunch.
I remember USENET very well. Hell, I was on comp.sys.amiga back before the big split into comp.sys.amiga.*
1988 or so?
And man... as bad as it can get, Slashdot is heads and shoulders better than USENET at its worst.
Mind you, USENET at its best was head and shoulders better than Slashdot.... but those tight-knit newsgroups were tough to find.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
The other side of that coin
The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations by James Surowiecki
For what it's worth, I wondered if anyone else knew that Newsweek was reporting the truth in the first place, and I am glad to see that I am not alone. I appreciated your post even if the clueless mods did not.
From Dvoark's essay:
"I can tell you this much: Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics. Once Linux gets the image as the OS for the criminally insane, it's a dead duck. Unless the community gets a handle on this, grows up, and rebukes the extremists, the trash heap of history is where this is all headed."
That's pretty much why I gave up on Linux. The last straw for me was when, in 2003, someone chewed me out for using the latest version of GCC, which he had come to despise because he insisted it was too bloated for people like him who still have perfectly good 233 mhz Pentium machines around. The person who went on that rant is a pretty eminent Linux/BSD software contributor who happens to be well-respected in the world of network security.
At that point I wrote off the majority of Linux developers as kooks and freaks following a few weirdos who would have been crazed hermits in the days before the internet. Now I do the majority of computing on OS X, haven't touched Linux at all in nearly a year, and couldn't be happier about it.
There's plenty of people already running those. They're called property investment seminars.
>with the cheerleaders being paranoid crackpot
>leftovers from the waning days of Amiga.
The overall article is actually more balanced than that. But the name calling stikes me as very odd, coming from a "crackpot leftover from the waning days of OS/2" as it does.
How long has it been since Dvorak was relevant?
The strangest part is that while he debunks the entire premise and presentation, he rises to O'Gara's defense. That may be professional courtesy from someone who's been in the business long enough to see almost everything, but I wouldn't share a masthead with O'Gara after reading her writing. And while defending the person isn't the same as defending their work, O'Gara's work (in this case) is grossly prejudicial.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
I'm posting anonymously for reasons that'll become blindingly obvious
And you think I can't recognize you?
Now get back to your job, John.
My boss was fucking brilliant
Nice try, but if your next post is not moderated as -1 - troll, you are fired!
Your Boss.
Please hush! Now!
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
There's plenty of people already running those. They're called property investment seminars.
Fuck you, I'm going to one of those tonight.
Wait a minute..
Maybe slashdot was a better place when there were only a few thousand here with informed opinions.
Yeah, but Fran Drescher is hot.
>> It's complete bollocks.
Not necessarily. We Americans may know it's bollocks, but to much of the the rest of the world, it may appear for all intents and purposes that the US is being run by paranoid crackpot leftovers. Look the this week's Newsweek/Koran debacle.
When you are trying to convert the faithful, appearances are everything.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
I think James Turner says it best, nice turn of phrase :)
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
Then in his responses to comments, he says ethics wasn't mentioned because non-writers don't understand it.
He didn't bother to note (or was too uninformed to check) that LinuxWorld's Turner pointed a journalistic ethics committee to MoG's article and the response clearly stated that it was beyond the pale for journalists.
Dvorak is just trying to get his own little PR from this incident, since he's becoming increasingly irrelevant in the industry.
I think the term is "ambulance chaser"...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
In an unrelated item, it was discovered that Dvorak was trying to find some way to pump up his hit count on his online articles, which is used to partially determine his salary, at review time.
The use of flame columns (similar to flame posts or troll posts) is a tried and true method to get the slashdot effect to pump up your hit count so you can ask for more money since you're so "interesting to readers".
In short: we've been had by Dvorak. Doubly so. He just wants justification for going on a tour of Europe all expenses paid.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Amen. Howgh. Tack yest.
Just this morning I was marveling at how the practices of radical Islam such as blowing up women and children, female circumcision, and oppression of non-Muslims pretty much escape critique from the world press. Why is no one willing to take the Muslim world to task on these brutal human-rights violations?
Another thing that troubles me is the hypocrisy of radical Muslims. Why is the U.S. military expected to abide by the Geneva Convention, yet there is little to no outcry from Muslims when a Muslim terrorist beheads an unarmed captive?
We're dealing with a backwards culture that thinks murder is an acceptable response to being offended. And they continue to pour into western Europe and now the U.S. We cannot afford to be afraid to be called intolerant for refusing to allow this sort of behavior to continue. Remember Theo Van Gogh and the Armenious family of New Jersey. Who will be next?
Dvorak gave Network Solutions/InterNIC his "Telecom Award for Technical Excellence".
'nuff said.
I happen to think he's right, and I've been an avid GNU/Linux user, admin, and supporter (yes, with real money) since 1994.
I also firmly believe that NONE of this would have happened if PJ of Groklaw were male. Heck, it wouldn't suprise me if "she" actually was a guy, or a group of people.
Admit it...the way people rabidly jump to her defense at the slightest provocation is a little strange. Keep in mind that the O'Gara drama, as well as the McBride drama and all of the other drama associated with Groklaw has been going on for months. It's just recently boiled over to this level.
Would this much commotion occur if PJ were male? Hell, no.
Which means a significant portion of the indignation the GNU/Linux community exhibits in relation to Groklaw is based not on being right necessarily, but on being horny.
I'm not trolling...I happen to think SCO is wrong, and I appreciate Groklaw as a resource, but the way the community goes spastic at the drop of a hat where Groklaw is concerned is unseemly. It certainly does nothing to further efforts to expand Linux's user base, especially in the enterprise.
but it sures sounds like Dvorak is becoming either a. less relevant or b. significantly less relevant.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Of course dvorak is a professional troll. And of course you're right in pointing out the fallacy in We need a leader to tell everyone we don't need a leader?
... Dvorak has managed to find an echo of reality in his characterization of a Linux community seemingly ripe with fanatics and lunatics devolving into mob rule.
/. really do have a negative, trollish image among the not-yet-converted. Yet the denial still runs deep, as seen in the long-running in-jokes right here on /. about how intolerant we are.
But
F/OSS, linux, and
Folks, we really DO need to lead ourselves out of this mudpit. It won't be some charismatic baton-waving leader who saves the community from this; it will be each and every one of us individually. Blind idealism is NOT enough. CounterFUD is NOT enough. We need to be seen as smart, reasonable folks who have chosen the alternative because it's actually better, not because we hate Bill (or Darl, or Maureen, or whomever).
Windows over Linux == trolling.
Linux over Windows == advocacy.
Right?
Exactly. There's no reason to argue Windows over Linux except to troll.
Who knows except Dvorak and SlashDot's owners?
Dvorak is completly correct about one of his key assertians: the behavior of people in the Linux/Open Source community is completely unproffesional. Note: I'm not talking about software quality or any other issue of technical merrit, I'm just addressing the way people behave.
He give some examples, and Slashdot went ahead and showed how common this bad behavior is. The responses on Slashdot have been a mix of personal attacks, insults, and not very well thought out attacks on his logic. Although I didn't read all the responses, no one actually addressed his critique.
I have not seen one person respond and say "The incident that you sited was very unusual, and here are common examples of people behaving in a reasonable and thoughful fashion." No one could say this because it is not true. People are always screaming and yelling and making false accustaions, just like they are doing right now on Slashdot.
The real question is how this negatively reflects on Open Source as a whole. It has to have some negative impact, the question is how much? Does it help get Open source into business or schools when this kind of thing happens? The only possible answer to this question proves Dvorak is right.
She apparently got into the building (and possibly into the person's apartment). That's B&E felony burglary. And using false credentials (with the landlord) is another felony.
When will people learn that what they see as the "Linux community" is often the blithering idiots who feel the most need to make noise and feel important - but who do sweet f**k all for said "community" except cause disruption and embarrasment?
There are no "community member" badges. Anyone can claim to be part of the "Linux community" and in a way, probably is. That doesn't mean they're representative of much. I'm REALLY, REALLY TIRED of being lumped in the same bucket as these twits.
Maybe one day people will realise that claiming to be part of the "Linux community" doesn't mean s**t and look at what these people
So
</rant>
For the curious, I do fall into the "something useful to do" camp, in that I contribute bug fixes to a few projects and quite a lot of work to Scribus. It's just not that hard, and really fun - maybe more folks should try it instead of just making trouble.
As for the "taking money from MS" bit - well, obviously it's my personal view, but I can't help wonder why those with a near-religious hate of MS don't *like* magazines printing their ads. MS paying to support Linux publications sounds alright in my book - and if you're concerned about influence from advertisers, you really have to think about that for all of them, not just MS (who're rather less likely to put the push on, actually - it'd be *REALLY* embarrasing if it got out). I also just don't understand why people care.
Anyway
Paparazzi go after people who have already voluntarily placed their image in the public eye, by a camera-seeking career.
They also don't often bother to reveal the homes of their subjects, unless the subject is visible in the picture, or the home is ostentatious enough to provide entertainment value on its own.
Why listen to a guy who can't even get computer keyboards designed correctly?
Slashdot requires you to wait longer between hitting 'reply' and submitting a comment.
...when you registered on /.
I'd recommend getting a life, but suspect it's too late. Every community has whackos. You'll get a serious discussion about UFOs and Area51 out of any group from acid-dropping nightclubbers to a Country Women's Association bake-off.
MoG being a complete asshole doesn't automatically mean that the majority of journalists are complete assholes.
The same people whom you claim are tearing the community apart are largely the ones who built it. It seems obvious that you do not understand the process very well at all.
So he has read the Bowie J. Poag timeline then.
its not so much what you say as to what you can do and allow other to do..
I now know dovak reads the ffii uk mailing list.
Hey, if you think that's confusing let me add this to the mix:
OS X over Linux == gay.
I will be bluntly honest when I say that Linux users in general, and RMS in particular, have done a truly commendable job of making the term "community" one of the most dire swearwords in my vocabulary.
As something at least moderately resembling an anarchist, the main reason why I have an aversion to being part of anything that could be referred to as a "community" myself is because the term also subtly implies the presence of something else held deeply pernicious by the anarchist mind; a heirarchy.
This then, is why, although I find Linux a fantastic operating system from a technical standpoint, its other users are very often people who I wouldn't want to go within light years of. I have literally spent years wishing that the operating system's technical merits were all that needed to be emphasised...and that we could have entirely skipped the part where Linux became a tool by which the Rain Man Alliance, led by that most unholy of high priests, RMS, and comprised of a global legion of asexual, basement-dwelling autistic mutants, could attempt to take over the world.
Linux needs once and for all to get back to being an operating system and forget completely about being a political/social movement...although I'm aware that for that to happen, the removal of the self-appointed Aspergian Messiah, RMS, would be critical...and is sadly not likely to occur. Frankly though, "Revenge of the Aspies" is one film I've grown very, very tired of seeing...and it went into reruns long ago.
Someone must be paying these people.
I have never met anyone who viewed Linux/UNIX as anything other than as business solution.
Please don't feed the trolls.
Did everyone but me miss this paragraph in Dvorak's article, especially the part in bold italics above? Are we absolutely sure of his real intent?
or is John trying to land a Syscon deal? With Maureen and the staff out of the way there is a vaccuum to fill. Who could be more vaccous?
As a paranoid, the notion is just irresistable, that some one is pulling strings at Syscon to get the coverage they want. We could email John's editor with our displeasure over his endorsement of what could be preceived as intimidation. Maybe he would be forced to go to Syscon which looks pretty much like it is heading the way of the Amiga.
windows over Linux == trolling;
> compiler error. 'windows' undefined.
What media apologist has mod points today? The parent post is informative and/or interesting - it certainly is not a troll. Just in case the tards who modded it troll are confused here is a clue for you.
Mr. Dvorak says, "Normal people do not like being associated with fanatics and lunatics." I wonder... has he made as close an inspection of our current Federal administration and Republican Party as he has of O'Gara and this fracas?
Actually he's half right: people despise fanatics and lunatics, IF THOSE FANATICS ARE THEIR PEERS. However, the dynamic is completely different, IF THEY'RE THE LEADERSHIP. Then people are more than okay with it, they're out there waving flags and banners and buying bumper stickers and sending the fanatics big fat personal checks.
This post brought to you by the English reservation league of Australia
Ok
(point 1 remains though)
That was your assumption, not my words. I simply stated that the small faction of outspoken people in the whole group are painting the picture that is perceived by the public. I called this small faction "left wing blowhards". Again, it is exactly this type of word twisting that causes the problem we are discussing. If you consider yourself one of those, (and by your posts, we almost have to assume that), the wear the shoes with pride, if you so choose.
Your conjectures on what others think are just that, conjectures. I did not pick up that brush, you did. You seem to want to ride on both sides of the fence. It can't be done. There is not a company out there that wants employees that will cause their company to be associated with something that is 'perceived' to bring a negative image to that company. That is where the perception issue falls in place. MArketing is all about perceptions, nothing else. It is not a misplaced judgement and you of all people, if you truely want to see linux and open-source move into the main stream, had ought to want to change.
Dvorak? Journalist? You must be joking.
+1 Insightful?
You have just inspired me to meta-moderate more often.