> You know, I've been to a lot of places, and I've never had such > difficulty communicating anywhere as I experienced in the UK. When, > exactly, did you people forget how to speak English?
Actually, I think there has always been a large proportion of the population that hasn't been able to speak English correctly. Same in the US (spelling not withstanding), I'm sure.
Of course, who knows what 'correct' English is? 'English' is, by definition, the language spoken by the English. I would draw the line at 'French' though - if an Englishman speaks French, then that isn't 'English'. Of course, much of the English language is French anyway...
Complicated...
> While visiting, I experienced the most atrocious grammar (adjectives > modifying verbs, etc.) and impenetrable pronunciation imaginable.
Yeah; and what I find most annoying is that I can't correct them like I might someone who has English as a second language, or on/..
I hate that;)
> Ordinarily, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to have a bit of a > language barrier in a foreign country. In fact, I've grown quite fond > of "point and pray" meals--but in the UK, this is simply not an option > because the food is so universally lousy.
Well, that's just not true.
I've been around too. I find that finding really good food in England is a bit of a hunt, or something you need to research, but it's there, without a doubt. I'd say it has always been there too. If you're used to 'everywhere' being at least reasonable, then it could be a bit of a shock to find it isn't like that in the UK, but everywhere is different. Finland is similar to England, I find - you have to know where to get good food, else you'll be disappointed....and another thing, over the past decade or so, I have been spoiled by the widely 'reasonable' food found in the SF bay area, and the widely excellent food in Beijing. Now, when I go to England, I find it really poor. For example, I go to an Indian, Thai, or Chinese restaurant and nothing is spicy or only vaguely recognisable as the dish I ordered. I used to be happy with the food in England. I could eat pretty much anywhere. Not any more.
Think "Shallow Hal". I think I prefered it when all food tasted good.
> You're really taking your health and well-being into your own hands if > you rely on "point and pray" in a place where what constitutes "edible > food" is so misunderstood.
You're clearly exaggerating.
> Now that you've gotten me started, maybe you could settle a bit of > curiosity. Is the world-famous British lack of dental health caused by > poor oral hygiene, lack of available dental care, or years of eating > British food?
This 'world-famous' British dental thing was news to me when I got to the US. My teeth were 'just fine' thanks. That is, until I let an American dentist at them. Ever since then, they've been aweful....and it cost a fortune too.
Actually, I thought it was Americans who had poor teeth. Wasn't it Washington who had wooden teeth? Yuck. There were a few Americans I knew who had quite poor teeth.
No, I don't think there's any significant problem with dental health in the UK. Maybe several centuries back it was, but not any more.
There *is*, on the other hand, a big problem with the dental portion of the national health service. From what I hear, it's next to impossible to find a dentist that accepts patients on the national health service.
Maybe 'poor dental health' is something that will be increasingly common.
I disagree. If I use my full name, how do you know it is real? Am I supposed to show you my passport or what? How do you know *that* isn't fake. How do you know anyone's name on here is real? Do you consider everyone here to be anonymous? I think you have a very strange definition of anonymous.
> Second, a single anecdote from someone who claims to have lived in Beijing at some point is completely worthless
I hear this a lot. Anecdotes aren't worthless. Quite the contrary.
I don't care that much whether people change their minds. I just want to give people a data point that might have them at least wonder if it's as bad as people make out.
Of course it is better in other places. So what? It's better in Helsinki, most of the time; but there is some overlap. I've seen worse 'clouds' here in Helsinki than I ever saw in Beijing - due to the shipping I think. It wasn't nice.
I've noticed that on TV news they often show video of Beijing and it looks much worse than when I was there. I suspect they only show it when it's bad since it's not news-worthy otherwise. It was only two months ago when I was there, and I was there for several years.
To me, my experience is worth much more than all that other evidence, objective or not.
Of course, you can take it or leave it. Seems like you choose the latter. Good for you.
No, I don't. Well, only second hand (ie, I don't get the benefit of the filter)....but, yes, a *lot* of people there smoke, and it was horrible in some restaurants at times; but they've segregated them now. I was told the authorities wanted to ban smoking completely 'inside' (ala California), but there was too much resistance, so segregation has to be enough. This leads to the same old problems of there being no 'gap' between the 'smoking' and 'no smoking' areas in many places, but it's a step in the right direction, IMO.
I lived in Beijing until last month for several years. The reports of poor air quality are vastly exaggerated. It does get bad occasionally usually due to sand storms (they're bad), but it's not often, IMO.
I lived in Beijing until very recently and the lowest cost was about 99rmb per month (3month contract) for a 10Mbps connection w/o any limits. That was a static private IP. ADSL with a dynamic/public IP started at about the same for 512/512 and went up from there.
"Godwin is actually using taxpayer dollars for this and is interestingly illiterate; the complaint is sealed."
Oh, no. That would be whoever posted the article....and, no, I don't know in what way his illiteracy might be interesting, though I can probably think of one or two ways, if I put my mind to it.
> That might be a reason, however the original iPhones are still going for several hundred dollars on eBay.
Well, I wonder if anyone's buying them...perhaps to avoid the contracts?
Is the 3G available yet? I wouldn't have thought the original would still be bought for several hundred if the 3G is cheaper.
Having said that, I had heard that the 3G UI isn't as fluid as the 2G one (the UI is the only compelling reason to get one, IMO). I've no experience of that myself, of course. I've never even seen an iPhone - perhaps from a distance, but not close enough to tell. I've seen a few iPods Massives though.
Just because it's someone's first language, doesn't mean they can speak coherently.
I am English(*) and when I went through US customs, the guard asked me, "Do you have a Green Card, or a Visa?", to which I answered, "Yes."
He asked a few times, with both of us getting more and more confused. To me, all I cared was that I had something I needed to get through. What he wanted to know was which one I had, not if I had one.
I also recall calling some service (I forget which) and presented with someone who spoke with a heavy Mexican accent.
Furthermore, I *know* Indian people whose English is very good, and I recently met an Italian (shock) whose English was so good that I wouldn't have known he wasn't born and bred English (I saw him drive once and that gave him away(**)).
I had to deal with an Indian person on a help line not so long ago, and I didn't have any trouble understanding him. He wasn't much help though - he just told me to go through all the baby steps as all the previous people I'd talked to - but I can't blame that on him.
Heck, some US accents are extremely difficult for me to understand - not just because they've made up their own words so it's not English any more. Some US people had the same trouble with me, and my accent is about as English as they come - extremely neutral - I often found myself having to repeat myself.
Of course, you probably meant US English, which covers just as many accents/etc as English itself; but US English != English.
Perhaps US people just need to get out more and experience a wider variety of accents...
(*) not that being English means I can speak coherently either. Some of the regional accents can be quite difficult for even me. I was going to say the northern accents (Jordie/Scouse/etc), but one of my neighbours in Somerset spoke fluent werzel and I couldn't understand a word of it. (**) joke
Slashdot Mirror
> You know, I've been to a lot of places, and I've never had such
> difficulty communicating anywhere as I experienced in the UK. When,
> exactly, did you people forget how to speak English?
Actually, I think there has always been a large proportion of the
population that hasn't been able to speak English correctly.
Same in the US (spelling not withstanding), I'm sure.
Of course, who knows what 'correct' English is? 'English' is, by
definition, the language spoken by the English. I would draw the line at 'French' though - if an Englishman speaks French, then that isn't 'English'. Of course, much of the English language is French anyway...
Complicated...
> While visiting, I experienced the most atrocious grammar (adjectives
> modifying verbs, etc.) and impenetrable pronunciation imaginable.
Yeah; and what I find most annoying is that I can't correct /..
them like I might someone who has English as a second language,
or on
I hate that ;)
> Ordinarily, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to have a bit of a
> language barrier in a foreign country. In fact, I've grown quite fond
> of "point and pray" meals--but in the UK, this is simply not an option
> because the food is so universally lousy.
Well, that's just not true.
I've been around too. I find that finding really good food in England ...and another thing, over the past decade or so, I have been spoiled
is a bit of a hunt, or something you need to research, but it's there,
without a doubt. I'd say it has always been there too. If you're used
to 'everywhere' being at least reasonable, then it could be a bit of
a shock to find it isn't like that in the UK, but everywhere is
different. Finland is similar to England, I find - you have to know
where to get good food, else you'll be disappointed.
by the widely 'reasonable' food found in the SF bay area, and the widely
excellent food in Beijing. Now, when I go to England, I find it really
poor. For example, I go to an Indian, Thai, or Chinese restaurant and
nothing is spicy or only vaguely recognisable as the dish I ordered.
I used to be happy with the food in England. I could eat pretty much
anywhere. Not any more.
Think "Shallow Hal". I think I prefered it when all food tasted good.
> You're really taking your health and well-being into your own hands if
> you rely on "point and pray" in a place where what constitutes "edible
> food" is so misunderstood.
You're clearly exaggerating.
> Now that you've gotten me started, maybe you could settle a bit of
> curiosity. Is the world-famous British lack of dental health caused by
> poor oral hygiene, lack of available dental care, or years of eating
> British food?
This 'world-famous' British dental thing was news to me when I got to the ...and it cost
US. My teeth were 'just fine' thanks. That is, until I let an American
dentist at them. Ever since then, they've been aweful.
a fortune too.
Actually, I thought it was Americans who had poor teeth. Wasn't it
Washington who had wooden teeth? Yuck. There were a few Americans
I knew who had quite poor teeth.
No, I don't think there's any significant problem with dental health in
the UK. Maybe several centuries back it was, but not any more.
There *is*, on the other hand, a big problem with the dental portion of
the national health service. From what I hear, it's next to impossible
to find a dentist that accepts patients on the national health service.
Maybe 'poor dental health' is something that will be increasingly common.
> Clouds tend not to be brown.
I never saw a brown cloud the entire time I was there.
Unless you call a sand storm a 'cloud'...they can be pretty bad, no denying that. I wouldn't call it pollution though.
If you see brown clouds, perhaps you need your TV colour adjusted ... or your eyes.
On the other hand, perhaps I need mine adjusted...
> a pseudonym is still anonymous in most cases.
I disagree. If I use my full name, how do you know it is real? Am I supposed to show you my passport or what? How do you know *that* isn't fake. How do you know anyone's name on here is real? Do you consider everyone here to be anonymous? I think you have a very strange definition of anonymous.
> Second, a single anecdote from someone who claims to have lived in Beijing at some point is completely worthless
I hear this a lot. Anecdotes aren't worthless. Quite the contrary.
I don't care that much whether people change their minds. I just want to give people a data point that might have them at least wonder if it's as bad as people make out.
Of course it is better in other places. So what? It's better in Helsinki, most of the time; but there is some overlap. I've seen worse 'clouds' here in Helsinki than I ever saw in Beijing - due to the shipping I think. It wasn't nice.
I've noticed that on TV news they often show video of Beijing and it looks much worse than when I was there. I suspect they only show it when it's bad since it's not news-worthy otherwise. It was only two months ago when I was there, and I was there for several years.
To me, my experience is worth much more than all that other evidence, objective or not.
Of course, you can take it or leave it. Seems like you choose the latter. Good for you.
Well, there are overcast days anywhere, pretty much. Anything to show that it was pollution you were looking at rather than just cloud?
I'm sure there *is* pollution, but I can't believe it's worse than, say, LA, or even SF bay area on occasion.
At least, that is *my* impression having lived there for several years.
> You smoke, don't you?
No, I don't. Well, only second hand (ie, I don't get the benefit of the filter). ...but, yes, a *lot* of people there smoke, and it was horrible in some restaurants at times; but they've segregated them now. I was told the authorities wanted to ban smoking completely 'inside' (ala California), but there was too much resistance, so segregation has to be enough. This leads to the same old problems of there being no 'gap' between the 'smoking' and 'no smoking' areas in many places, but it's a step in the right direction, IMO.
For a start, I wasn't anonymous.
Second, I don't see how I can be any more authentic than giving my own experience. I didn't measure the air quality everywhere I went.
I lived in Beijing until last month for several years. The reports of poor air quality are vastly exaggerated. It does get bad occasionally usually due to sand storms (they're bad), but it's not often, IMO.
Here we go again. More 'human rights'.
You guys make this stuff up as you go along, right?
I lived in Beijing until very recently and the lowest cost was about 99rmb per month (3month contract) for a 10Mbps connection w/o any limits. That was a static private IP.
ADSL with a dynamic/public IP started at about the same for 512/512 and went up from there.
Pretty cheap, I thought.
Clearly you have a big nose and so can afford it.
It's your own fault.
Next time, get a smaller nose.
"a rebel"
Oh, right, because there aren't any good reasons to boycott Microsoft products...
I get some good ones when I go to the toilet...sometimes.
You can have one of them, if you like. ...or perhaps you'd prefer to make some of your own. I recommend a diet with a lot of eggs.
Two problems...it's Microsoft.
I, for one, won't be getting one if it has their name on it.
Here, I've fixed it :
"Godwin is actually using taxpayer dollars for this and is interestingly illiterate ; the complaint is sealed."
Oh, no. That would be whoever posted the article. ...and, no, I don't know in what way his illiteracy might be interesting, though I can probably think of one or two ways, if I put my mind to it.
"StatCounter reported in March that Safari/iPhone was ... No. 2 globally, trailing the Nokia Web browser."
Finally, my suspicious are confirmed (sort of).
Why?
> As Elie Wiesel said, 'the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.'
What nonsense.
Someone tell me the rest is worth reading.
> That might be a reason, however the original iPhones are still going for several hundred dollars on eBay.
Well, I wonder if anyone's buying them...perhaps to avoid the contracts?
Is the 3G available yet? I wouldn't have thought the original would still be bought for several hundred if the 3G is cheaper.
Having said that, I had heard that the 3G UI isn't as fluid as the 2G one (the UI is the only compelling reason to get one, IMO). I've no experience of that myself, of course. I've never even seen an iPhone - perhaps from a distance, but not close enough to tell. I've seen a few iPods Massives though.
Just because it's someone's first language, doesn't mean they can speak coherently.
I am English(*) and when I went through US customs, the guard asked me, "Do you have a Green Card, or a Visa?", to which I answered, "Yes."
He asked a few times, with both of us getting more and more confused. To me, all I cared was that I had something I needed to get through. What he wanted to know was which one I had, not if I had one.
I also recall calling some service (I forget which) and presented with someone who spoke with a heavy Mexican accent.
Furthermore, I *know* Indian people whose English is very good, and I recently met an Italian (shock) whose English was so good that I wouldn't have known he wasn't born and bred English (I saw him drive once and that gave him away(**)).
I had to deal with an Indian person on a help line not so long ago, and I didn't have any trouble understanding him. He wasn't much help though - he just told me to go through all the baby steps as all the previous people I'd talked to - but I can't blame that on him.
Heck, some US accents are extremely difficult for me to understand - not just because they've made up their own words so it's not English any more. Some US people had the same trouble with me, and my accent is about as English as they come - extremely neutral - I often found myself having to repeat myself.
Of course, you probably meant US English, which covers just as many accents/etc as English itself; but US English != English.
Perhaps US people just need to get out more and experience a wider variety of accents...
(*) not that being English means I can speak coherently either. Some of the regional accents can be quite difficult for even me. I was going to say the northern accents (Jordie/Scouse/etc), but one of my neighbours in Somerset spoke fluent werzel and I couldn't understand a word of it.
(**) joke
> about
?
Perhaps, if you have an error margin of zero.
> for my wife and I
I think that should be, "my wife and *me*".
Oh shit. I'm a grammar nazi. Crap.
O2 don't sell any other phones?
> and - get this - the call centers are in the U.S.!!!
Is that a good thing? I mean, you say it like it's a good thing, but I don't suppose you have to pay long distance if they're not in the US.
> Here in the UK there's no competition for the iPhone
I don't understand this statement.
>There's no "air time".
Aren't most countries like this? I wonder if there's a list of countries that do it the stupid way somewhere.