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Real-World 3G Monthly Cost With Taxes and Fees?
Kristl writes "I have called AT&T and walked into several AT&T stores to ask 'How much will an AT&T phone plan cost per month with taxes and fees and everything?'. No one can answer this question. They are evasive and become testy when I push them on it. Their answer is they can't tell me what the government is going to charge me as the fees can vary month to month, but I've been an AT&T customer for several years, and my taxes and fees have not varied more than a dollar in all of that time.
So I question them: 'Can you just tell me what the taxes and fees will be for a 3G plan in California that has the basic calling plan, basic data plan, and the basic text plan?' I even do the math for them, that's $75. Okay AT&T, what are the taxes and fees on $75? Oh, they can't tell me that, as the taxes and fees can vary from month to month." There's more to this justified rant (below); real-world numbers in comments could help answer the questions that cell carriers seem content to sidestep as completely as possible.
"Okay ATT, can you tell me what the taxes and fees were on $75 plan last month? No.
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
Okay AT&T, cn you tell me what my taxes and fees were last month on my current $40 plan ... that only requires reading my bill right? Oh good! They can read! Yes they can tell me what the taxes and fees were on my $40 account last month.
Okay AT&T, we have progress ... can you now pull up a plan that has a $40 calling plan, a $30 3G data plan, and a $5 text plan? The answer? No, they can't do that, that would be an invasion of privacy.
So I ask, can they go through the motions of setting my account up for the iphone plan I described above and then tell me what the taxes and fees amount to? Oh, of course not!
This doesn't seem like it should be so hard. What is the conspiracy that ATT refuses to tell me what the my bill would cost per month were I to switch to a new plan?"
Too expensive or looks shady? Don't fucking buy it. Take your money elsewhere.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
You know, I don't really like the iPhone either, but this is a bit much. TFS' complaint could be used for any phone, any carrier in the U.S. I'm not saying it isn't crooked, or that the policies are particularly just, just that this was a problem well before Steve ever even thought of the iPhone.
Anyway, direct answer to the question of "how much total for basic calling, data, and text?" is pretty much always about $100 to $120 here in the U.S. For the iPhone, Treo, Blackberry, Voyager, whatever. In case you actually didn't know...
Caveat Utilitor
I use wifi you insensitive clod!
What's that in real money? I guess around 30 euros, what a deal!
I know, I am sad as well.
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Figuring out the taxes on a phone line is rather complimakated, difficult enough that providers have made mistakes on it in the past and had to refund overcharges or eat the difference in undercharges. I'm not surprised that the salespeople don't know, and I'd bet nobody on phone support will know either. This is a brand new service, and once customers start receiving their typical monthly bills you'll be able to find out.
Every state has a different way of taxing communications service. Florida is the worst of them all from what I've read. Take your current cell phone bill and estimate off the taxes currently on it. Some of the taxes and fees will be a fixed amount per line, others will be based on a percentage of the total bill (sales tax typically).
Also the way cell companies figure out how to tax you differs. Some (such as Sprint) base your taxes on the billing address, others (like Verizon Wireless) base your taxes on the area code your wireless number is located in.
What kind of taxes are we talking about here? I can't think of any other than VAT/sales tax and those are pretty straight-forward. Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?
..yet another way they fuck you. They SET the "taxes" and "fees", either through the locally bribed PUC or just arbitrarily on their own.
Like the "franchise fee". That's my favorite. I don't give a fuck what you have to pay for your fucking franchise--please stop pretending like you don't have any choice in the matter. But on the other hand, in a lot of places, they actually rig it up so that they are _required by law_ to charge for things like that, for money that they actually keep.
expandfairuse.org
The taxes will probably be comparable to sales tax--a few bucks on a $40 plan, e.g. With a more expensive (e.g. data) plan it will of course be more, but if you're willing to shell out $60 or whatever for a data plan you should also be prepared to shell out $8 or whatever in taxes.
To get an approximation just google "XYZ plan taxes fees forum" and see what people say. For example:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?s=bace4f039998a970fb0736cb9659d8b2&p=4412192&postcount=11
Peace out.
Its doubtful the peons at the store have access to any set of formulas or a calculator that will tell you the taxes etc. The reason is simple: AT&T isn't interested in being responsible if some regulation changes and suddenly your bill goes up. If they said anything, even with a giant disclaimer, most people would run back in to the store kicking and screaming about their .30 overcharge, even if it was correct and not under AT&T's control.
Wiretaping and DPI are expensive.
In most of Europe, sellers of consumer products are required to state the actual final price that the consumer is paying. And that includes monthly cell phone tariffs.
When traveling to California last year, that was one thing that I really didn't like - how prices are quoted exclusive of tax.
In Australia, the price quoted has to be the price that is paid by the consumer - the airline industry recently got into trouble for not doing this i.e advertising cheap fares exclusive of the fuel levy, tax and other surcharges.
In addition to this, the amount of tax that was charge very often ends up on the receipt so businesses can use it to calculate their GST credits etc
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
Really? If you can afford $75/month, you can afford it with taxes. I can see their point for not wanting to give out numbers on this, because of the variables involved. Plus, if they try to quote you a "with taxes cost" then you might try to hold them to that figure. Better to just sidestep it and let you figure out the taxes yourself, like you would have to with any other purpose that is taxed.
FWIW, I paid $62.96 last month on my iPhone $60/month plan, and $63.42 the month before that. So extrapolate from there, and for a $75/month plan budget $80 and you'll be close enough.
I went in the other day to get an iPhone and change my plan that I've had for several years and they were surly as hell.
The guy who was waiting on me kept just walking away for a couple minutes at a time and wouldn't answer anything straight.
He wouldn't say when they were getting another shipment other than to say they could put me on a waiting list if I paid in full today and then it would be one to two weeks.
He never really looked me in the eyes and kept mumbling when I would talk to him.
Most questions were answered with "I don't know" and then when it came down to it, I had to dial 611 to change over my service because I was an old customer.
I still want to get an iPhone because it really is the perfect device for me and my mac based household, but I wish I had an Apple Store near me where I could have at least gotten decent customer service.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
This doesn't have to do with cell phones, but it does have to do with AT&T. About 2 or 3 years ago I got a landline phone plan with them that was unlimited local and long distance for $40 per month. It was more expensive than a place like Vonage, but I really wanted the physical land line. I got my first bill and it was $52, and there were no setup fees in there. They had managed to pack in $12, or 30%, of taxes, fees, surcharges, cost recovery (what the hell, isn't that the point of charging the first price to begin with), 911 fees, etc. So I immediately switched to VOIP. I have to say that these phone companies suck, and I cannot believe that they can't give you an all-in number.
The answer is: They honestly have no idea. They're trained to say what corporate tells them.
Training typically focuses on trying to sell you on gizmo features and plan upgrades. They simply ARE NOT given that sort of info and, in my experience, the people that work these jobs are not the type to go the extra mile to figure it out or in some cases don't want to say the wrong thing and have an angry customer come back and throw the phone at them (seen it happen over the most marginal shit.)
No sig for you!!
While this is a little off topic it does still deal with an AT&T 3G phone. iPhone Dev Team's PwnageTool 2.0 has been released to the public.
Are there any other taxes for cell phones in the US which are directly charged to the consumer?
Yes there are various excise taxes levied on cell phone bills. The federal government as well as state and local government each levy their own taxes on wireless communications. This is a slightly outdated listing of taxes by state. For the most part it is a "because we can" sort of tax courtesy of our elected officials.
My current mobile solution:
- Get the cheapest prepaid AT&T Phone
- Add $20/month unlimited data plan to prepaid phone
- Get unlocked Nokia N95-3
- Put prepaid phone's SIM card in N95
- Get fring or truphone for N95 to make calls
- Use email, IM, or twitter instead of SMS
http://www.mobile-weblog.com/50226711/att_offers_unlimited_prepaid_data.php
I've worked for carriers before and there are two reasons for this issue:
1) taxes vary by your municipality not just zip code and are very complex. Also, the ordering systems and the billing systems are separate so the ordering system may not have the tax information. It may be that they only know when it actually gets to a bill (and then the first and second month will differ significantly) That said they should be able to estimate fees on a bill which is a solution we built for a company.
2) Several of the government fees aren't actually government fees they are cost recovery fees which the telco's set themselves and add on saying they are to recovery fees for paperwork / compliance due to government regulations (which is really just a cost of doing business). They don't always like to talk about this (but do generally note the fact in fine print on your bill.)
3) Due to the complications above some representatives are simply uncomfortable with taxes and fees and so avoid the question.
Of course you could build a system that hooks into the tax system to answer this exact question so its not the greatest excuse, but typically not high on the level of importance versus the cost of implementation.
Different provider, different phone, different priced plan. But, I figured this will turn into a general discussion of taxes on mobile service.
I have a $30/month voice, $20/month data, and $5/month text plan. I'm billed in Garden Grove, CA.
Monthly Recurring Charges
Item Amount
FP BB BIS MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08 19.99
FP Nat'l Roaming from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08 -
FlexPay 300 MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08 29.99
Msg Bundle 400 MC from 7/17/08 to 8/16/08 4.99
Monthly Recurring Charges 54.97
Taxes, Fees and Surcharges
Item Amount
Government Fees and Taxes
Federal Universal Service Fund 0.77
State Sales Tax 3.88
City Utility Users Tax 3.23
Local Sales Tax 1.49
State 911 0.20
County 911 0.50
Regulatory Programs Fee* 0.86
Taxes, Fees and Surcharges 10.93
Total Charges 65.90
I recently switched to AT&T. In the store, prior to executing the contract, I was provided a printed sheet of paper with my plan, estimated local taxes, fees, and my 15% monthly discount. My bill hasn't varied from that estimate by more than a dollar. Certainly, the OP just isn't talking to the right people or found a bad CSR.
I recall reading a comment here, not long ago, stating that dealing with mobile providers in the US was like 'choosing between shit sandwiches'. This, unfortunately, seems to reiterate that this is the case.
Over here in the UK, things are a lot better. If you don't like customer service, you change network. Simple as. I switched from Tesco Mobile (poor customer service on O2's otherwise excellent network) to 3 earlier this year, and the process was quite painless. Am I right in saying that having mobiles on contract is more common in the USA which is what makes dealing with providers such a nightmare?
Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
PwnageTool 2.0 for the iPhone has been released!!!
I work for AT&T. Maybe you are just asking the wrong questions. Every time I activate a new customer I give them a print out of exactly how their first months bill and normal monthly bills will break down. This print out is avalible through any AT&T vendor and is called a CSS (Customer Service Summary) This print out breaks down everything on you bill including rate plan, data, messaging, extra services ( insurance, roadside assistants ...) taxes and fees broken down by which entity is charging which fees and taxes. Any good sales person will present you with this at the time of the sale. If you not getting one maybe you should consider going to a different AT&T store. Just like everyone else that franchises their business you are going to have good agents and bad agents.
Probably because it's too complicated to figure just off the top of their heads, or because they haven't determined your alignment and class.
According to the 4th ed. FC&C Salesmaster's Manual, the taxes on a $40 calling plan is 2d10+2 percent for all classes and alignments of customer.
However, the rules get tricky when adding the data and text plans. If you add those and the customer is any Lawful alignment, or your class is Apple Cultist, the monthly fees and taxes are a d20+30 per month.
If you're Neutral, sales should charge 2d10+2 percent of the total purchase in fees, plus a flat setup fee of 3d20, and whatever the local tax rate is (see Table 13-4.7, "Telecommunication Tax Rates of Municipalities, Provinces, Kingdoms, Shires and Deities").
If your alignment is Chaotic, or you have the Late Bills or Frequent Support Caller flaws, or your class is Go Phoner, your fees are (3d20)d20+(d20)d6, plus (2d20)d20 percent taxes, plus 2d6 in franchise fees, plus 3d20+d6 setup.
If you're identified as Chaotic Hard-to-Please alignment, the Salesmaster may simply escalate fees and taxes and make up complex usage rules (2Gb bandwidth cap except on Fridays and the alternating days of the third week of every fourth month, when it's 256k, for example) until the customer gives up.
However, if sales can't determine your alignment or class - if you're a new customer, for example, or your billing and prior plan history isn't available -Âthey will probably refuse to answer your questions. If a customer immediately submits, they get Apple Cultist treatment. If a customer questions the refusal but eventually submits, they get Chaotic treatment.
If a customer is an insistent questioner, the Salesmaster considers the player in combat and gives the player d6-2 rounds to flee before calling security (see U.S. Government's "Monster and Enforcement Officer Bestiary," table 2.1-1, "Rented Muscle").
This isn't California, but it's kind of close(I hope). This is for a month($70) + 3 days prorated($7) + activation fee ($36). I have no idea if the taxes are taken against the activation fee too, or just the service plans.
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge 0.34
Relay Service Device Fund Surcharge 0.05
Federal Universal Service Charge 3.46
STATE 911 FEE 0.75
The 911 fee appears to be fixed, the recovery charge and universal service fee are proportional taxes, I do not know about the relay surcharge. In any case, it looks like taxes come to about 6%. Keep in mind that we don't have a sales tax in Oregon, so you would need to add that too.
We need two things here, which would be very nice.
1) A website that shows the calculations for cell phone taxes, state by state and carrier by carrier. Scans of bills (names redacted, of course) could supply the info efficiently, as can just calling the damn company if they are competant.
2) Viewing our current bill like we can view banks. I'm sure as soon as I make a text, the charge is added to my next bill. So why can't I see that bill online?
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
You shouldn't be forced to buy a product from any 1 provider.
Take your money elsewhere to someone who can properly answer your questions.
It's these kinds of things that need to be avoided. "I'm not a satisfied customer, but I'm going to have to buy the product either way."
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
Even worse is that most of these contracts stipulate that you're going to pay them for the next two to three years, but don't lock in the price. You can get a $100/mo cell phone or satellite TV plan today and three months from now they could double the price and you'd be obligated to either pay it or pay an early termination fee.
No idea how to calculate the taxes. It's no big mystery what's going on here though, right? The carrier wants to be able to arbitrarily increase your monthly payment at their discretion. Don't buy in to the excuses, the situation is completely unreasonable and these disreputable businesses need to be called to account for it. The proper response to a sales rep's refusal to disclose the actual cost of a service is a loud, slightly peevish, "well maybe I'll take my business to someone who can."
If you just need the basics, get a prepaid phone with T-Mobile or Virgin. These work fine and the business relationship is honest. If you need data however, I don't know what to tell you. You might just need to bend over until the carriers leave us with no option but government regulation.
Support NRA, America's oldest civil rights group.
Back in 1993 a I had the police called on me because I couldn't get an answer to the question about the 'total' cost of a program.
I asked about the total cost of setting up an account with X phone and got an answer, but when we got near the end of the transaction, there was an additional charge and I stopped. I thought the total cost was what you said before. Well, yes, plus this fee. Ok, that's is that the total cost? Yes. ... but don't worry, the consolidation in telecom companies since that time has been great for customers. Things are so much better now.
As you might guess, we went through three iterations of this before I accused the clerk of fraud through the advertsing, in-store material and statements about the 'total' cost. None of it was true and none of it was 'total.'
i got a usb 3g dongle. it's 375 dollars to buy.
then i got a monthly fee of 30 us$ for a "all you can eat" plan.
the dongle syncs up to 2Mbits down, 384 kbits up.
(CDMA EV-DO)
and yes, if u don't know what a VPN is, now is the
time to learn.
joker said, that some spectacles with a usb-port and VPN to the home would be quit the samba.
Either provide me with a flat rate, "this amount is what your service is going to cost to the penny" number before we make a deal or lose me as a customer. Its your call. I don't particularly need a cell phone that doubles as an MP3 player because I already have an MP3 player that meets all of my needs.
No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
The portion of the "regulatory compliance fee" that's chargeable to CALEA (i.e. wiretapping) should be broken out and listed as such.
Here's a sample from my ~$50 plan (Verizon).
Taxes & Surcharges $8.46
Made up of:
Verizon Wireless Surcharges and Other Charges & Credits $3.93
- Fed Universal Service Charge 1.13
- Regulatory Charge 0.07
- Administrative Charge 0.85
- Muni Telecomm Lic. Surchg 1.88
Taxes, Governmental Surcharges & Fees $4.53
- State 911 Surcharge 0.08
- Emergency Svc (Pcc) Charge 0.07
- State Universal Srvc Charge 0.27
- Local E911 Surcharge 0.61
- State Sales Tax 2.48
- Cnty Sales Tax 0.83
- City Sales Tax 0.19
My favorite fee is indicated. It translates as we charge you an arbitrary fee because we can.
What iPhone? The OP mentioned AT&T and 3G. And mentioned data and text plans. But she (Kristl) didn't mention the iPhone.
As you say, those could be for ANY smartphone sold by AT&T. Or anyone else, for that matter.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
It's the same as far as I am aware, and my bill has been $60.07 every month for the last two years. Taxes have always been the same.
If brute force isn't working, you are not using enough.
What would have been the point of a post saying (55-40)/40 = 37.5% * 75 + 75 = $103.13? Most people here can do simple math. At least by ranting, you can get on the front page of Slashdot.
http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/ I went on the AT&T website and found it in less than three minutes. Certainly not worth a diatribe on the front page of Slashdot.
I recently switched from Sprint to Mobile, each with a 2-phone family plan with the least number of minutes (500 and 700). The total cost is about the same for each, but the fees are funny.
With Sprint: $59.99 monthly, $3.88 Sprint surcharges (these should ALWAYS be in the advertised price but somehow never are), $4.41 Government taxes & fees (start of Jun 2008). The total varies about 20 cents every month. Total fees 8.29.
With T-Mobile: $55.99 monthly, $4.67 taxes and fees on the account, $4.15 taxes and fees on the first line, $4.12 taxes and fees on the second. Total fees $12.89 (end of Jun 2008).
The total cost of each? 68.28 for sprint, 68.93 for T-mobile (w/200 more minutes we never use). Why does Sprint only assess fees on one line and T-mobile both lines? (Okay, technically, 30 cents of the Sprint fees are on the second line).
Anyway, there's some data. The funniest TV ad I ever saw was for DSL advertised at $19.99 a month in big bold writting and in tiny blurry letters at the bottom of the screen it says "There is an additional $2.00 cost recovery fee." Where is a class action lawsuit when you need one?
The "Schumer Box" reduced the "keep customer in the dark" shenanigans in the credit card industry. Maybe a similar type of disclosure would work for the cell phone industry as well, provided tax regulations are changed to be collected at the federal level. The patchwork of state tax laws doesn't help make the amount you are liable for each monh very predictable.
The other way to get around this is to use a prepaid plan wher you by X number of minutes and that's what you receive.
1. No one knows the cost per month. Utter garbage.
Apple knows exactly how much it costs.
But since its Apple [ closed source ], your SOOL.
In other words, all the fanboys out there
will pay 1000.00 a month for ANYTHING from apple.
Apple KNOWS these fanboys will pay any price.
2. If you think Apple is cheap, or affordable,
or friendly to consumers [ battery is soldered
into the case, NOT interchangable ], your dead
wrong. Apple only cares about apple. They
couldn't care less about your opinion.
3. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
Its apple. Welcome to world of Misdirection.
Bait and switch. Hey look. A SHINY apple gizmo.
Please don't look at the price. heh heh.
4. Companies that hide the price for "service",
usually its very expensive. WHY would they
hide the costs IF they were cheap or reasonable?
5. Apple loves to take your money. Apple
would love to take ALL your money, if they could.
Then again, so would every other damn
corporation out there.
One last word :
CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"but I've been an AT&T customer for several years, and my taxes and fees have not varied more than a dollar in all of that time"
Er, then do the math yourself. That wasn't difficult, no was it? Sigh ....
pabugeater
Do you wish to pay your monthly AT&T subscription in:
- American dollars
- Zimbabwean dollars
- Loaves of bread
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
Is 93 dollars and change after taxes and fees.
Enjoy Every Sandwich
I actually went through those same steps with AT&T's dsl/cell/homephone plans. I asked a very simple question: how much would my monthly bill be assuming there are no surcharges? Here's a brief rundown of my conversation.
Happy Customer:So, i have these 3 plans, home phone for $9.95, cell service for $34.95, and internet service for $49.95 (numbers could be off), assuming i don't go over on minutes or anything extra like that, how much would that be with taxes and surcharges?
AT&T rep:about $20 a month, on average.
Happy Customer: Can you be more specific?
AT&T rep: I'm sorry sir, there simply isn't a way to calculate that in our system.
Happy Customer: Ok, well can you tell me what taxes are included and what percentage they are?
AT&T rep: It's all calculated with a formula in our system.
Happy Customer: Ok, can i have the formula?
AT&T rep: It's in our program, i can't access it. Honestly sir your only the second person in five years that has asked for that. I would only be able to tell you what taxes were on a previous bill.
Happy Customer: So let me get this straight, your saying that i would have to sign up for a contract with AT&T and sign a blank check for the first month before you would tell me how much it would be?
AT&T rep: Yes sir, is there anything else i can help you with today?
Happy Customer: Sure, get me the number for Verizon wireless and Time warner.
Oh, and just so you know? it took about 4 days of emailing and phone calls just to get them to admit it. Whenever the question came up i would get transfered to a different sales rep to repeat my question. Clever huh?
there's been a lot of talk on /. lately about broadband and mobile broadband capacity. The taxes that we pay are directly linked to that.
telecommunications and broadband operators get federal monies from the universal service fund to expand infrastructure to the entire nation. I mean that's the purpose for the universal service fund. Why haven't telecom/mobile and broadband operators expanded their capacities and/or service areas? They are required to pay into the fund. They pass the costs directly on to us. Then they get that money back to build out their infrastructure.
Why aren't they doing it? Where is that money ending up?
11/20/2007 http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07J-4A1.pdf
section I article 2. "We are also mindful that it is consumers who must pay universal service contributions.
Despite our strong interest in providing adequate funding for broadband deployment, we also want to
avoid significantly increasing the burden on those consumers."
section I article 4. "The Joint Board recognizes that while mobility and broadband
capabilities have both received some funding from universal service dollars, the funding has been entirely
within the formal context of providing basic voice telecommunications services by eligible
telecommunications carriers (ETCs)."
This was from a recommendation document where the universal service fund commissioners issued a recommendation that they setup an additional fund for broadband and one for mobile service. Where is that money ending up? AT&T, Sprint, and T-mobile are all rolling out 3g services. Where is the broadband service capacity increases?
They're using their grammar skills there.
I bought my iPhone 1.0 about 6 months ago, I had the same questions and the AT&T rep at my local AT&T store calculated it all out for me, including taxes. I have to ask, where you polite, or just a dick to them because you expected them not to tell you.
They do their best to keep google from being able to inform you...
Before I tell my ATT horror story, I'll cut to the chase: for people like me that just want basic voice service for a few thousand minutes per year or less, T-Mobile prepaid seems to have the best deal around right now. If you buy $100 at a time, you get 1000 minutes that don't expire for a year. You get voicemail/etc. There are probably text messages, but I don't know how much that costs you--Internet access likewise, because I don't use these. You can probably get a deal on a cheap phone as well--I got one for $5 and one for $25. And best of all, there are no hidden fees--it's all wrapped into that .10/min charge.
Now, on to ATT. I've been annoyed with them over a period of time as they tried to hoodwink me on their DSL plans, and they lied to my wife about the cost of caller ID, etc., but the last straw was what happened when we recently moved. Up to that point, all of our various ATT services arrived on one bill, which I faithfully paid on time every month. When we moved, we called in advance to have everything moved to our new address. Inexplicably, they stopped billing us for our cellphone service, although I did not immediately realize this, as I was still getting and paying one bill each month.
Then, one day, they cut our cell service off. I called to ask, and they explained that we had not been paying our bill. I pointed out that I'd been paying my ATT bill each and every month, as always. They told me that they'd split my bill in two, and were sending my cell bill to an email address or something, which of course I wasn't paying attention to, since I'd always paid the paper bill, which covered my entire service. At this point, they refused to turn on my phone service again.
Needless to say, I was furious. So, I got on my knees and coughed up a credit card number to enable service just long enough switch carriers. We do T-Mobile prepaid for cell service, and I switched my landline, long distance, and Internet to a local outfit. It's *way* cheaper and better in every way.
So, to ATT I say, "Thanks for pushing me to find a better and cheaper alternative, but beyond that fuck you--I will never do business with you again as long as I live."
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
(1) Switch to e-billing
(2) Change your billing address to anywhere in Portland, OR 97202
(2b) You might need to switch your area-code to 503 -- some carriers will let it slide though
(3) Get charged the lowest cell-phone taxes in the country
I saved about $4/month switching from Taxachussets to Oregon. My parents saved $7 because our town (yes, the town) levies a $2/month tax on cell phones on top of the country and state taxes. Plus, as an added bonus, you can reward a low-tax jurisdiction with more revenue while depriving a high-tax one.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/06/cz_sw_0606cellphone.html
Having worked for the ATT Wireless before cingular, I know exactly why:
The reason they can't tell you is because the taxes are determined entirely by the ZIP+4 code of where your phone 'usage area' is.
eg, if you have a NYC Manhattan number but live in downtown Los Angelas you are going to be taxed like you live NYC Manhattan.
Plus you have BS fees like the Regularatory Programs Fee (aka we charge it because we can), whine enough and you might be able to get someone to remove it, I was there when it was rolled out so yes it is possible to remove, though it's done by matching a credit 'feature' to it.
Plus there is also the legal standpoint of we can't tell you exactly how much it will charge because you'll call in next month and say "Anonymous Coward told me it was going to cost exactly XX.XX! I want to speak to a supervisor!"
So largely to avoid problems like the above I would take the existing taxes (there is a tax chart by state/city/suburb) rerate the taxes to a percent based on how much % the taxes would be per dollar (California and NY state taxes are as much as 40%,) and then add up all the monthly charges and multiply by the % I got earlier and then add 2$ to be safe and go "Look it will cost somewhere near XX.XX if you don't incur any usage based charges like long distance, roaming, text message overage or data charges"
Why is it so hard?
Not all the taxes are percentages, some are 'fees' which are a fixed amount, and some are a hybrid of the two where it's a minimum of X plus Y%, and there are some crazy BS city taxes where you are only charged if you have a certain home usage area, even if you don't live there.
Ultimately it's all calculated by the billing system and impossible to do by hand unless they reside in a state and city that doesn't charge the telecom utility taxes. Good luck.
There's a few issues that I didn't see commented on yet, so consider this food for thought. Regarding Customer Service reps not being able to give estimates on bills: It has less to do with poor Customer Management Systems(CMS) than it has to do with legal paranoia. Consider it a form a plausible deniability; If you never make a claim about how much the bill will be, no client can claim you misrepresented the charges. That's really the core reason phone reps are expressly told NOT to give estimates and do not have such functionality built into their CMS systems. It's merely a way to avoid potential legal entanglements. Now, underneath it all, there are many "clever" ways to go about creative accounting, and the most troubling aspect of that is that our federal and state governments are as responsible as the businesses that engage in such practices. For example: FCC Line Subscriber Fee. EVERY telco charges this fee as it is mandated by the FCC. What isn't so commonly known is that the telcos are allowed to charge a certain percentage ABOVE what the FCC actually demands. (I haven't been able to find details on what that percentage is or how it is calculated unfortunately.) It may seem like a small fee, usually less than a couple dollars, but when you look at how many LINES (not customers, but LINES) a giant like AT&T has, the monthly revenue generated by just this one fee is staggering. As for the monthly fluctuation of your bill, we can thank both the telcos and our government for that as well. The laws and fees and surcharges change as frequently as daily in some cases. Ultimately, I agree that it is absurd that you can't expect the exact same bill each month (assuming you remain within your plan'spackage.) I absolutely never use even half my included airtime, and never use any features that generate charges, yet every month my bill varies by a few cents. Not a big deal, admittedly, but it does cause one to wonder: Why are these fees and taxes fluctuating constantly? The answer is that it is designed to perform this way.
The effect of forgetting to switch accounts when shilling your own posts can be described only as halfway between creepy and amusing.
Lets not pretend that At&t employees working at $13 an hour are conspiring to keep information from you.
You got all the way to asking about taxes and fees?!? I haven't been able to get a straight answer to (ever changing) minutes.
What is the minimum billed increment? 6 seconds like some of our business lines? 18/6 like others we have? 60-seconds?
When does billed time start? When the call connects? when you press send? When the phone starts ringing? And when does it end? Several companies made a subtle change and switched from connect-start to airtime-start (though still only charging if you connect) thus grabbing lots of extra minutes (but avoiding raising published rates).
What calls are free and what cost extra? 611? 911? 511? 311? 411?
When someone leaves a voicemail, does that count as usage? What about fetching voicemail? From a landline?
Calls on hold with call-waiting? Both legs of 3-way?
Many years ago a TV show grabbed a rocket-scientist and a brain-surgeon, gave each a phone bill and asked them to explain all the charges. Neither came close.
It's high time the government set standard definitions (i.e. minutes start when the call connects and end when either party terminates the call. Billing increments shall be 0.1 minutes. Or whatever.) Let the companies set their own rates but conform to standard definitions and bill formats.
Of course some recent attempts to make phone bills understandable were shot down because then the terrorists win or some such crap.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Situation in the UK is this: You have two options Pay as you Go (PAYG) or contract. Contract gets you any phone supported by the operator on a 12-24 month contract. Phones include all the high end models and price for the handset varies from free to not very much - they get their money in the huge monthly fees and heavily pushed extras like itemized billing, insurance etc. To complicate this, as the available subsidy on a long contract is often more than the price of a medium handset, they'll offer freebies (laptops, PS3 etc). PAYG gets you a phone, on a network and you pay as you make calls (you charge up your phone with credits upfront). Phones you get tend to be low end, locked to the network and with no real discount on the handset. To muddy the waters all operators have various schemes to try to get you to use the phone more (charge up once a month with at least £x and you get y free etc). Only other major difference is that in the UK (and actually pretty much every non-US country) you don't pay for incoming calls.
I had AT&T long distance on my home line for perhaps 15 years because I was too lazy to comparison shop. It got to the point, however, where the miscellaneous fees were ridiculous. And they were charging me 10 cents per minute on a plan that also had a regular monthly charge ($10 or something) at a time when others were charging 5 cents. I think with the fees, charges, assessments, taxes and kickbacks, my long distance bill was about $25 even if I didn't make any calls.
I called to ask if they had a lower-priced plan for someone who didn't use long distance much and was told I had the cheapest plan. So I canceled long distance altogether and started using prepaid calling cards that were less than four cents per minute with no other fees. Ironically, they were AT&T cards.
After I canceled they tried selling me cheaper plans. So, they were lying when they said they didn't have cheaper plans.
I won't get an iPhone as long as it comes with AT&T. I now use a non-AT&T cell phone for all calls.
I work for a ATT Call center as a rep, and ill tell you why, most of the reps just dont care, when someone asks me i just do a 2% tax and tell them thats the best i can do really, we really have no idea what the costs could be,
ATT CLM (Cancel Dept)
WulframII - Free Online Mutiplayer 3D Tank Shooting Game
What does this have to do with the iPhone, really? Is 3G in the USA really limited to the iPhone? I may hope not so for you guys!
Luckily in my place there is no such thing as unpublished taxes and fees on your mobile phone account. And for unlimited data (actually I have a plan that automatically steps up depending on data use - use no data, pay very little) I pay about USD 50 per month. Not too bad, and prices will come down in time.
Actually to get back on topic: how can one even check whether the bill is correct, if the fees and taxes are unpublished? How can you tell whether you have been overcharged?
What about registering a plan, and then when the bill comes in, refusing to pay until the phone company gives you a written account on how the fees and taxes are calculated, simply so you can check whether the amount charged is correct? It may be a bitch to do, but I actually doubt they can sue you for it. Or is the USA's system so messed up that one even has to pay bills that one can not verify of being legit?
Most of the iPhone users I know feel the same way -- the iPhone is fantastic, AT&T is so horrible that they can hardly stand it. One of the biggest complaints is that the bill is entirely too complicated, flat rate plans result in unpredictable bills that can vary widely from month to month, and the billing practices are so complex that AT&T customer service can explain neither the policy nor an actual bill, to any reasonable degree of accuracy.
I walked into AT&T to get a 3G plan, but was interested in pricing first. The nice woman behind the counter printed out a color sheet with the plan we discussed all broken down with all the taxes and fees and discounts shown in neat little boxes.
It seems that the ultimate in business today is to hide the actual cost of a product from the consumer until after they've committed to but it. That greatly increases what they can charge. One example is concert tickets. If Livenation advertises a concert ticket for $25, what do you end up pay? It's anybody's guess after all the "fees" they tack on - "parking fees", "facility charges", "convenience fees", etc. If you can find a Livenation event where they advertise the price as $25 and you can actually buy that ticket for less than $40 I'd be shocked. Airlines are now getting into the game buy selling tickets, then adding hidden fees for checking bags. I'm sure there will be lots more extra charges after you've committed to buying the ticket.
The main difference that can make a cell phone much cheaper in Norway than here in the US, is that you don't pay for incoming calls. There's no "air time". You only pay for outgoing calls, just like with a land line phone.
Another big difference is that in Norway, you have close to 100% geographical coverage, and that's a country that's sparser populated than almost all US states, with lots of mountains and only a couple of percent arable land.
And, as you hinted at, it's common to buy phones and plans separately, with no long term bindings where you get a "free" phone designed to lock you to just one provider.
In all three cases, this is due to legislation. Funny thing is, the cell phone companies there still make money. There's more than 100% market penetration for cell phones in Scandinavia. "Everyone" has at least one cell phone, and some have several. So my guess is that what they make the money by selling more, not by squeezing more.
It's like a gallon of gasoline. Every time you go to the pump it has probably changed. So, hey, let's rant at people who have no control over it, no idea how it works, and probably pay it themselves.
Fucking ranting nerds.
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
Because I know people are probably going to choke on a figure like that, people need to be aware that because the taxes are so high in a place like Norway, they have a lot more government-provided services, stuff that we have to pay out the wazoo for in the U.S. Heath care is an obvious one. Obviously, I suppose it's ultimately up to individuals whether or not they want government paying for stuff for them. My personal opinion is that here in America, unfortunately, companies and our government are so corrupt that it couldn't possibly work.
But the point is that even if your taxes are 50% in Norway but only 35% here, it's entirely possible that your disposable income—and by extension, your standard of living—could actually be better.
Incidentally, the richest people here in America don't actually pay 35%. The dirty little secret that rich people don't want you to know because you'd probably vote it out of existence is that the tax rate on the wealthy is closer to 15%, which is much lower than you or I likely pay. (What's your marginal income tax rate?) The reason is because wealthy people don't earn most of their money through income—you know, salary and wages. Income earned by the really wealthy comes from capital gains (i.e. stocks, bonds, and other investment devices), which is only taxed at 15%.
AT&T bills you an amount to collect the state and federal taxes. They add in whatever they want at whatever point and claim it's related to collecting the taxes.
More people should ask the questions you're asking. Make them sweat.
I know that problem when I studied in Minneapolis, the basic phone service was annouced at $14.93 per month when it was actually around $23 with all the taxes and charges.
My landline (incl. DSL and unlimited landline minutes and internet) in Germany cost 44.85 euros, this already includes the VAT and this was the price the phone company told me when I signed the contract.
AT&T started doing this same gimmick a while back with their POTS (dial up phone service.) The CSR reps on the phone refuse to tell you how much new items or services added will cost each month in total, with the tax included. 'We're not allowed by law to tell you that,' was what I was told the last time I had reason to call AT&T customer service.
Right now, AT&T isn't much more than a dial tone in our house. We have a security alarm system that requires the presence of a standard phone line. Otherwise I would fire AT&T completely. Stupid morons. I hate you fuckers.
This doesn't have to do with cell phones, but it does have to do with AT&T. About 2 or 3 years ago I got a landline phone plan with them that was unlimited local and long distance for $40 per month. It was more expensive than a place like Vonage, but I really wanted the physical land line. I got my first bill and it was $52, and there were no setup fees in there. They had managed to pack in $12, or 30%, of taxes, fees, surcharges, cost recovery (what the hell, isn't that the point of charging the first price to begin with), 911 fees, etc. So I immediately switched to VOIP. I have to say that these phone companies suck, and I cannot believe that they can't give you an all-in number.
This doesn't have to do with cell phones, but it does have to do with AT&T. About 2 or 3 years ago I got a landline phone plan with them that was unlimited local and long distance for $40 per month. It was more expensive than a place like Vonage, but I really wanted the physical land line. I got my first bill and it was $52, and there were no setup fees in there. They had managed to pack in $12, or 30%, of taxes, fees, surcharges, cost recovery (what the hell, isn't that the point of charging the first price to begin with), 911 fees, etc. So I immediately switched to VOIP. I have to say that these phone companies suck, and I cannot believe that they can't give you an all-in number.
I was thinking of switching from Vongage to Comcast since Comcast doesn't have to go thru MY router and firewall and impact my QOS. After my transfer to an agent who could confirm that I wanted to do (and to assure them that I was really who I said I am and that I wasn't coerced into it) the woman repeated the mantra "You understand that the cost will be $19.95 a month for the first year and $29.95 per month thereafter plus taxes and user fees. I stopped her and ask what that amount might be - she claimed over and over that she could not tell me what the government might charge me - nor what the 'user fees' would be. OI felt like I was in the A&C "Who's on first" skit. I finally told her that if they were not able to tell me my FIRST month's bill I was not going to buy. She could not. So - I didn't.
Um, no, sorry, not quite. The page you reference begins by saying that these may or may not be the fees you pay. Still doesn't answer the man's entirely reasonable question of "How much will my bill be?"
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
I pay $75/month for my T-Mobile 1000-minute, unlimited texting and data plan for my Blackberry. After taxes and fees, it's $81.34. Pretty reasonable.
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
You're in luck. I used to work there, analyzed customers bills, have a basic plan, purchased the iPhone 3G, and can view my bill.
My first iPhone bill wasn't as bad as worst case. It turned out to almost $120, and the average month will probably be $85 at best.
Monthly Service
NAT450R5KNW: Nation 450 min Roaming 5000 Nights and Weekends $39.99
Data Plan iPhone $30
Credits, Adjustments, & Other $2.85
Government Fees & Taxes $8.69
Text Message Feature $5.00
Your lowest monthly bill: $86.53
(NAT450R5KNW) + (iPhone Data) + (Credits, Adjustments, & Other) + (Government Fees & Taxes) + ($5 txt message feature)
$39.99 + $30.00 + $2.85 + $8.69 + $5.00 = $86.53
If Credits, Adjustments, Other returns to the amount prior to the iPhone upgrade, it would be $0.63
If Government Fees & Taxes returns to the amount prior to the iPhone upgrade, it would be $5.45
That would bring the lowest monthly bill down to $81.07
Your first month bill best case: $104.53
Assuming you cut over at the end of your billing period:
(Credits, Adjustments, & Other (Upgrade)) + $18 Upgrade fee
$39.99 + $30.00 + $20.85 + $8.69 + $5.00 = $104.53
Your first month bill worst case: $170.33
Prorated 150% for cutting over in middle of billing cycle
(NAT450R5KNW) * 1.5 = $60
(iPhone Data) * 1.5 = $45
Activation instead of Upgrade $36 vs $18
Also assume you have text overage of $16 because no text feature
(1 call to Directory Assistance) = $1.79
(80 Text Messages @ $0.20 ea (no text feature)) = $16
(Prorated NAT450R5KNW) + (Prorated iPhone Data) + (Credits, Adjustments, Other (Activation)) (Government Fees & Taxes) + (Usages Charges)
$60 + $45 + $38.85 + $8.69 + $17.79 = $170.33
This would be illegal in several jurisdictions. Just hope you never get caught doing that.
a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
Apparently this girl can't figure out too much, as she needs the rep to even read her OWN old phone bill to her. And yes, if a person is paying 37.5% tax/surcharge on a cell phone plan, then an equivalent $70 plan would probably cost about $103/mo. I agree, isn't this a little melodramatic??
My phone costs are about:
:)
Monthly fee: 0.66 per month
Phone calls: 0.069 per minute
Text messages: 0.069 per piece
MMS-messages: 0.19 per piece
Data(3G or GPRS): 1.5 per megabyte
No additional fees or taxes. No longterm contracts. No sim-locked phones. And thats euros(1 Euro = 1.5833 U.S. dollars according to google atm).
Of course there are different plans available, ie 45e for 3000 mins of calls and 3000 sms.
Enjoy your iPhone...
if you go to your account online and click on rate and plan features you 'll see what they charge you. when you click on other charges, you get a screen that shows a breakdown, depending on your state/billing address.
here's New Jersey:
Additional Charges
The additional charges for new customers in your area are shown below, including explanations of each charge.
The amounts shown below are based on the highest fee/surcharge rates assessed in your state; your actual fees/surcharges may be less. In addition to the AT&T charges described below, you will be billed for mandatory taxes and fees imposed by federal, state, and local governments on wireless subscribers.
State NEW JERSEY
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge 1.25
Federal Universal Service Fund 11.4%
State Universal Service Fund $0.00
Other AT&T Surcharges 0.00%
.
While blaming the world's problems on the iPhone certainly appears to be the norm nowadays, this one is a red herring. Blame the cellular industry. File a complaint with the FTC (US) about the bait and switch tactics in use.
The latest for the EU region is to *uck us over like the US! http://www.eubusiness.com/Telecoms/termination-rates-guide In the UK for sure, we have a system called caller pays. Yes US folks - it's really simple, we don't pay for people cold calling us from third world countries trying to sell us rubbish, and we do not pay for the privilege of being sold to! This is the reason why the UK and many other countries are so far ahead of mobile phone uptake usage. My call plan is £31.50 with Orange UK, unlimited calls to UK numbers and UK mobiles, oh free basic broadband over my BT PSTN line. But the EU politicians are being lent on by US telcos to roger us, just the way you are in the states. Great for the telcos, crap for customers. Paying to receive cold calls - it's incredible!
Telecommunication taxes vary from state to state, county to county, town to town. There is no way for an AT&T rep to know what all the different taxes are for everyone. You need to plug the plan in against your address. There is software that does this but it is not open source, hence VERY expensive.
All the poor guy wants to know is some basic pricing info. Seems to me all he has to do is post this question more directly. After the initial rant about AT&T, let's just ask one of us.
iPhone Dotter, who has this plan, please post this data (even if you have to do it shielded anonymous.)
Or is billing structure copyrighted now?
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Besides the issue that none of the sales representatives know enough to mention that link, it also appears to be missing taxes, which, in my area, include federal, state, county, and local... all 4 levels!
"The amounts shown below are based on the highest fee/surcharge rates assessed in your state; your actual fees/surcharges may be less. In addition to the AT&T charges described below, you will be billed for mandatory taxes and fees imposed by federal, state, and local governments on wireless subscribers."
When I had AT&T / Cingular, I asked and got no answer. Back when I had Verizon, same deal. We're now on T-Mobile and Sprint... just as clueless.
If they give you an answer, and they're wrong, then they have to explain to you when you come back, why the answer wasn't right. And you can say you won't come back, but the next person might.
You can't trust customers these days, beleive me, I don't trust mine, it's why most of my answers are vague and as general as possible as well.
That's ridiculous. All they give you is the price without taxes?? We don't see anything like that almost anywhere in Europe. Besides we have rechargeable cards. You charge it with watever and whenever you want to spend. Is prepaid your only option in there?? I understand why this happens. Because your cellphones have the same numbers as a home "fixed phone" or wharetever you call it. In here cellphones have different prefixes and people know they are paying more to call them but whoever receives a call doesn't pay just for receiving.. It makes much more sense. I have a cellphone and I charge it with 7.5â(euro) and it takes months before I spend it. I don't use the cellphone much of course. And if I had to spend a lot more I wouldn't even have one. If I used it a lot I would probably have one tariff in which you charge it with 10â a month and you get unlimited calling/sms and 3G calls to whoever has the same tariff.
invasion of privacy? after the wholesale wiretapping episodes and the need for congressional immunity? what a bunch of mofu clowns. i'm getting close to reverting to pigeons. middle finger salute to att and its' corrupt brethren.
You may not realize it but most people pay more than 50% tax in the US. Fed income 30% ,State income 12%, country tax 2%,city tax 2%, sales tax 7% and maybe 3% on the other taxes such as excise tax and whatever else the mainly lawyers(politicians) can come up with. The Total 57%. The way most rich people get out of taxes and this includes the Kennedy's, Kerry's, and Clinton's is through charitable trust. (The charity that Bill Clinton donated $10,000,000 to last year was the Clinton Trust) They have very little income, homes, property, stocks, bonds, etc since all it all goes into the trust. They get money to live on from the trust and live in homes owned by the trust. I don't know how much money the trust has to donate to maintain its status as tax free but I bet it is a lot less than the amount of taxes they would pay other wise.
Ok, I worked on a project a few years back to visualize how phone calls were billed and the taxes applied, etc. This was no easy task. In fact, the project was abandoned at the time because it was just too darn hard! Too many variables and conditions where records could be lost [gasp!] were the main cause of the abandonment. Of course, the research I was doing was on landline calling. I can only imagine that the situation is very similar for cell calling. It's literally amazing that any of the calls we make actually make it to a bill at all!
Having said that, I can see why they are told to not quote exact costs when those costs are based on things that might not happen due to how calls are billed, etc. Pile on top of that the fact that carriers are charged usage fees by the government that are then spread out over all customers. Then there's the fee changes that happen yearly, taxes varying from locality to locality depending on where the tower is you're talking on, etc., etc.
It's a big mess. They are afraid (legally) to quote an exact number for the cost. They could be sued for misquoting. In this utterly stupid, litigious society we live in they are erring on the side of caution, as their lawyers have informed them. I agree that it's a ridiculous and annoying practice, but knowing the background I do understand their position.
From http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/wireless-terms.jsp
"Taxes, fees and discretionary charges will apply to your wireless service and will be reflected on your bill. AT&T Mobility imposes either a Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge of up to $1.25 or a Regulatory Programs Charge of $1.75 to help defray costs incurred to comply with State and Federal telecommunications regulations, such as E911 deployment, State and Federal Universal Service, and other government mandates on AT&T Mobility. These charges are not taxes or government required assessments on end-user customers. AT&T Mobility has chosen to pass through these charges to its customers. Actual tax/fee/surcharge information for a particular locality can be found at wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/additionalcharges/."
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx
In Missouri, my 3G (but non-iPhone) 450/5000 minutes plan plus unlimited internet and 500 texts is $59.99 plus $6.87 in "other charges" and $5.04 in "government fees and taxes". Those break down as:
Credits, Adjustments & Other Charges
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge 0.33
Federal Universal Service Charge 1.23
Municipal Gross Receipts Surcharge 5.31
Government Fees & Taxes
State Sales Tax 2.81
County Sales Tax 1.23
City Sales Tax 1.00
What does this have to do with the iPhone, really? Is 3G in the USA really limited to the iPhone? I may hope not so for you guys!
3G is not limited to iPhone at all; I've been using it for a year on my Nokia phone and paying the same price I did before I had a 3G phone. They charge more for 3G when you have an iPhone simply because they can.
"it's just a petty"
Did you mean "it's just a pity?"
had to refund overcharges or eat the difference in undercharges
Every month my bill varies within $0.50 with miscellaneous taxes and sometimes tax credits. I assume tax credits are refunds of overcharges from the month earlier. But what happens when an account is cancelled? Does AT&T eat the credit?
A few years ago I cancelled an AT&T account that was out-of-contract (month-to-month then). I got the final bill about 3 weeks later. After paying it, I got another final bill a month later for about $0.40 for extra taxes (and only 1 of my 3 banks lets me use online bill payer to send a check under a buck). And a month after that, I got yet another final bill for about $0.60. I called and complained that I was not paying as I already received 2 final bills. They wouldn't budge, but knowing they won't hang up on me, I milked the call for over 1/2 hour (I was driving and had nothing else more fun to do) until they threw in the towel after I asked how much this call was costing them. A month later, I received a check for about $0.30. It seems that after they posted a $0.60 credit, a real tax credit then landed in my account.
This piece is 2 years old. Do you, or does anyone else have a good link to the current cellular tax rates that states charge???
Federal Universal Service Charge:
A fee that AT&T charges you for simply being a customer that pays taxes on service(pretty much all of us, unless covered by a government contract for service. They government does not tax itself). They CAN tell you what that one is, per month, as they determine the amount, not a government agency. They simply choose not to. The name is misleading. It has NOTHING to do with the Federal Government. AT&T pays a fee to the Government, they simply pass that fee onto you although they are not mandated to do so.
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge:
A fee AT&T charges you to recoup the cost of PROCESSING taxes on BEHALF of government agencies. It costs them money to do the accounting for your taxes and they, quite simply, pass the cost to you directly. This is not a tax or government-imposed fee. They CAN tell you what this one is, per month, as they determine the amount, not a government agency. They simply choose not to.
911 Training Fee:
This is a fee AT&T charges you. Unless it specifically mentions a municipality, state or other entity, the fee is going to AT&T. It is always on the bill, yet some areas do not have this fee as the training is usually paid for by the "911 Service Fee". If your local or state governments do not have such a fee, it is replaced on the bill by AT&T's own fee, and thus, they can tell you what it amounts to, each month, as it is determined by them, not a government agency. If it DOES specifically mention a entity other then AT&T, then AT&T may decline to tell you specifically what the amount will be, month to month, as they have no control over changes to the fee made by this other entity.
State Sales tax:
An actual tax! The state gets this fee. AT&T may decline to tell you the month to month cost of this tax as they have no control over the changes in such a tax. AT&T spends money calculating and billing you for this tax. The cost of such calculating and billing is passed on to you in the form of a "Regulatory Cost Recovery Fee"(see above)imposed on you by AT&T.
911 Service Fee:
A fee many local and state governments charge to offset the cost of 911 Emergency systems. AT&T collects this tax from you on behalf of the government. AT&T charges you to do this in the form of a "Regulatory Cost Recovery Fee"(see above)
If ANY of these charges apply to you, the cost of calculating them and billing you for them is passed onto you, the customer, in the form of the "Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge", imposed entirely by, and for the benefit of, AT&T.
I might add that there are NO regulations regarding the inherently slimy practice of a company putting their OWN fees in the same portion of your bill as the REAL taxes and fees. It is a con to give the impression these charges originate outside the company and to lend an air of authenticity, to state their own fees in the guise of of a governmentally-imposed fee. It is, quite simply put, a scam.
AT&T is not the only company that does this. They all do. Look at your bill. Then go read the FCC page regarding these fees/taxes/ripoffs at....
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/phonebills/samplePhonebill.html#Carrier%20Universal%20Service%20Charge:
If you had asked for break down of the fees, they would have been able to do so. But once you start asking about taxes and such the call center reps do not have that information and it does vary heavily state to state. If I remember from my days behind the phone, New York was the worst by a huge margin for taxes and levies by the city, and state.
just figure about 15 to 20 extra in taxes. i live in ga and it's only about 10 more in taxes, but the crazy thing is that at&t charges more in "user fees" then t-mobile, which is why i have the iphone on a t-mobile plan and am saving about 10 a month.
the other thing just buck up and pay the damn taxes or get a phone that requires a cheaper plan.
When I bought a house, I called up Comcast, the monopoly-owner-provider there, and ordered Extended Analog service (having previously been a digital subscriber). The chipper young woman on the other end of the line piped back, "Why? For only $5 more per month, you can get digital service with 900 channels!" I don't need 900 channels, ever, but I wanted her to see the real behind-the-scenes crap going on, so I replied with, "Oh? Just $5 more per month? How about after fees and taxes?"
"Let's see...for Analog service, altogether you're paying...$31.50 per month. For digital... Oh."
"Hmm?"
"$55 per month."
"Yeah, exactly. Analog, please."
Yes, but it was a dark and formless void. Shapes moved there that were called phones, but were not true phones, since they did not come from the mind of Steve.
And thus it came to pass that Steve brought forth the iPhone, and there was much rejoicing amongst the faithful, who gathered in long lines to receive the blessing. And it was good.
But doubt crept into weak minds, and some questioned the benificence of Steve. The blessing was hacked and despoiled, And Steve heard of this and was wroth, and lo! He sent forth His firmware updates in a storm of righteousness, and many were bricked, and there was gnashing of teeth and rending of t-shirts. Thus is the vengeance of Steve.
Ever merciful and benificent is Steve, and to reward those who follow him without question, he brought forth the iPhone 3G, to bless the faithful and redeem the unfaithful, and there was much rejoicing.
But still there is doubt amongst the weak and confused, who see but who do not believe. Do not give them bread or salt, or allow them to plug in their chargers, for they are unworthy.
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
I went through this with Verizon and a land line phone. Tried to find out how much my final bill would be so I could compare to my current plan. They would never tell me.
Up in NORTH America, Canada has these cell-monopolies you might have heard about. I am looking at switching to the Rogers/Fido branch of the beast - because my Telus phone doesn't work in my basement apartment in the middle of Vancouver, but Rogers does. (Oh, and I want an iPhone.) It was very helpful to find this discussion about iPhone (3G) plans, strongly recommending not to get the "official" plans. This practical advice for those about to bite the bullet, is uncommon. http://www.ehphone.ca/2008/07/have-you-signed-up-for-the-rogersfido-iphone-plans-or-not/#comment-1975 There's been reams of talk about how bad various plans are, or boycotting the iPhone, or Rogers, or cell-providers in general (my preference in many ways), but it's nice to see a little talk about "well if you're gonna do it, here's how to get screwed the least." I appreciate that advice.
"Ruthlessly pursuing the idea that the accordion is just another instrument."
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the US mobile phone system sucks. Don't start modding me because of some misplaced nationalism - the US choice of phones, software locks by networks, data pricing, choice of CDMA over GSM for a large part of your history, your pricing plans, your 'pay to receive' models - they all suck.
You need a system like the UK (no joke - we got something right for once and I'm going to sing its praises):
Prices including tax up front, and quite cheap in terms of purchasing power parity
Pay only for texts you send or calls you make. No text or call spam because of this (well, like one message and call in the last 3 years)
Shorter contracts
Wide choice of phone
GSM means you can switch out your SIM overseas (forget the iPhone here, it's quite unique in the market - Orange gives you your unlock codes after 6 months, where does that happen in the US?)
I have an original iPhone. Every month I pay between $74 and $75. I don't understand what the problem is.
I'm not talking about normal sales tax, I mean ask about one of those other "fees" Their response, "the FCC allows us to charge you that" me:"OK, what FCC rule/regulation states that you can charge me that?" ATT:"i don't know" Me:"ok then don't charge me that until you can tell me what allows you to." ATT:"no"
Cingular was OK, until ATT took them over, at least in my experince. A few more months and I'm canceling at the end of my contract. I've always played the game of just switching carriers just to get a slightly lower rate. This is the first time I'm switching because the service is just BAD. If the quality was the same/better as it was before ATT got involved I wouldn't even switch, I'm to busy.
OK, I'm done ranting. But really try asking the question about what a tax is for and why they are allowed to charge that as a seperate line item not include it in their main charge for the service.
-ME
Those who can, do.
I worked for a local AT&T cell phone shop for over 2 years and shared the frustration of not being able to give the customer an exact, down to the cent figure for a new cell phone. What you have been told is true, we are not provided detailed information on the so called "service and govt fees."
However, any good sales rep ought to at least be able to ESTIMATE, within $5 or so, the amount of extra fees on any given combination of features. In my state, a $49.99 monthly phone rate usually had AROUND $5 worth in extra fees... not including the standard 7% state sales tax. A plan of $99.99 that included data services would have close to $10 of extra fees, at most.
This is all contingent of course on there being no overages/ringtone downloads/international calls etc...
I used to work for at&t and here's what the deal is. If they QUOTE you a price, and later you say "But now its .03c more, you lied to me!" then customers feel the urge to sue, call the public utilities commission, (which has no jurisdiction), the FTC, the FCC or the BBB(Which is not a government agency). So to avoid false, or misleading statements, no one should EVER quote you how much taxes and surcharges are ever going to be. Taxes are not controllable. There are taxes for cities, states, counties, and federal. So yeah they can't quote you an exact amount. There are usually no less than 5 groups of people debating on whether to raise your taxes. Since the telcos have no say in those meetings, they can't and aren't required to tell you. What they CAN do, is raise the amount they collect for FUSF or whatever they want to call it this week. What it represents is the amount the FCC tells the telcos they must contribute for each dollar they earn into the general universal service fund. This fund provides operating capital for the FCC, low cost phone services for the disabled, libraries, and other entities which qualify for a discount. The phone companies aren't collecting it FOR the FCC, they are making up a surcharge because the FCC is collecting it from THEM. Rather than start losing the up to 11% the FCC started taking from them, they decided to try to hide it in a surcharge and pass the saving on to themselves. Now you know what is hiding in your phone bill. Every company does it, it's not illegal, and it's nothing you should really complain about. The prices you are quoted are the prices they offer, neither THEY nor YOU can expect to know anything beyond that.
While it may be illegal (fraud?) to claim an address where you don't receive mail, it's certainly not illegal to have an out-of-state billing address.
Sort of off-topic.. I replaced my local-to-my-town USPS post office box with http://www.earthclassmail.com/ - they scan all your mail and you download it as PDFs. They're based out of Beaverton, Oregon - but they can also give you a Portland address (among other cities across the US). I'm very happy with them BTW, costs about $100 a year and I don't have to scan my bills myself, go the the post office, or worry about missing important mail while I'm traveling. Did I mention I'm very happy with them? :)
Anyways, AT&T was happy to change my (non-Oregon) billing address to Oregon, since that was actually my new billing address. I don't remember if it changed my taxes; I don't recall any drop in my bill, but then again I wasn't looking for any.
I worked cable, and I would probably have behaved similarly to the AT&T reps.
1) The billing system was crap. No, I couldn't pull up some random person's account -- there was auditing and I probably would have been fired (rightly -- as a customer, would you want someone trolling through your account at random?) And, no, I couldn't fake-setup an account. I couldn't even see the taxes, they were generated at bill-printing time. When I used to have AT&T, well, my spider-sense says they had a similar billing system based on my interactions with them.
2) Bad customers. For the most common plan or two, I could give exact figures, because the call center I worked at was small -- ~6 people, and covering a limited area, so I knew the plans. For a few plans, I estimated once or twice -- I'd get the same customers back a month later, FURIOUS, because "Someone at your company said it'd cost $65 and it's $65.38" or some similarly trivial amount. Fuck that. It was fun to point out "That was me, and I told you it was an estimate" but after a few times it' just wasn't worth it. I know you wouldn't be like that, but the person at AT&T doesn't, and the "bad customers" have ruined it for you.
Two consecutive comments scarcely constitutes "shilling your own posts". Who the fuck modded this stupid shit up?!? Kickban 'em all, get rid of the deliberate pollution on /.
So it looks like the basic take-away from this article is this:
US Cell Phone companies don't quote real-life costs because then they might have to stick to them.
Telecom Regulation in the US is a very bad joke.
Virgin Mobile. NO extra fees. At all. Why they say 10$, they mean 10$. Just add sales tax.
Thanks for that.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
taxes are so high in a place like Norway, they have a lot more government-provided services, stuff that we have to pay out the wazoo for in the U.S. Heath care is an obvious one.
I'm pretty sure health care is the only one. And how expensive is your health care, really? Mine is about $500/mo for the entire family including copays, etc., and I don't consider my health plan to be any good at all. So my out of pocket health care expense is only $6k/year, but if I had to pay 50% taxes (that 50% underestimates the tax liability by a huge amount, by the way... look at their VAT to see why!) that would cost me way more than $6k. So I'm quite happy with the US system.
Incidentally, the richest people here in America don't actually pay 35%. The dirty little secret that rich people don't want you to know because you'd probably vote it out of existence is that the tax rate on the wealthy is closer to 15%, which is much lower than you or I likely pay. (What's your marginal income tax rate?)
This is a 100% Class-A bullshit argument. Who cares what anyone's marginal rate is? I'd happily let you set my marginal rate as high as you want--but only if I get to set my effective rate! ;)
So let's look at the effective tax rates. Look at yours. What is it? Probably under 10%. For a wealthy person, it's going to be much higher thanks to the AMT. Even if you just want to look at marginal rates, you have to realize that the AMT marginal rate for capital gains is 22% and most deductions are disallowed under AMT.
Find a wealthy person and ask that person what his or her effective income tax rate is. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that effective rate is lower.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that effective rate is lower.
That should read "I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that your effective rate is lower."
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock