That statement simply is not true. Granted, you can always find some corner case where the workload is going to be slower between releases (2.x or 2.6), however, as a rule of thumb, 2.6 should still be a huge improvement for even uniprocessor users. Best yet, many, many parameters of the kernel and scheduler are tunable, so, you can always adopt the kernel to work best for your specific workload needs.
While it's true that they are working hard to significantly improve Linux for the server room, by far, they have never lost site of the uniprocessor user. Remember, there is nothing wrong with tuning the kernel for your uniprocessor needs, and specific workloads. They just can't do that when they are benchmarking because it would skew the results, invalidating them. They are not only trying to measure how their improvements effect the overall system, but, what makes for sane initial defaults, which are reflective of a general purpose and broad workload. If you understand what you are doing, there is not a reason to believe that you can't greatly improve things for your specific uses and workloads. It's important to keep all of these in mind when talking about these benchmarks. Furthermore, you should fully expect your favorite distro to come with tuning presents which reflect a targeted workload (file/print server, workstation, database, web server, etc.).
Keep in mind that the benchmark you looked at represents one category of many different types of workloads. So, for that specific workload, it may of been slower, however, that workload my not represent anything you do with your computer. Remember, other types of workloads are significantly faster. One last note, remember, performance is the classic trade off with lower latencies. It trades responsiveness for raw throughput. If, on a uniprocessor workstation, you only see a -7% drop in performance and latency is greatly reduced, chances are, not only will you never notice the loss in performance, but you'll be praising it for how well it works with your mouse, monitor and keyboard (if feels better and makes you a happier user).
Yes, there are. The scheduler is fully HT aware. It seems that many of the SMP and numa optimizations also apply to HT'ing as well. As such, the developers have been working hard to support it.
Worth noting, however, it's not uncommon, even for a system that fully supports HT, to see a noteworthy performance drop when HT is enabled. Seems many new systems come with HT disabled in the BIOS for this very reason. Granted, I'm not 100% that's not a Window's specific issue rather than a broad-board HT issue, but something to keep in mind, nonetheless.
You are correct! The scheduler reacts different to different work loads. This is why the kernel developers try hard to test their changes under a number of different workloads. To top it off with, they attempt to target the benchmarks which behave like real-world work loads rather than contrived and unrealistic workloads. That's not to say that they don't test those too, however, they clearly direct more attention at real-world workloads and corrosponding result sets.
The 2.6x series kernels will be a big step up for just about everyone that seriously uses their computer. Significant realiability improvements as well as faster thoughput on disks, much, much higher scalability for SMP (hyperthreading and numa and even highly loaded uni-systems) systems, and much lower latencies, all at the same time. Granted, there are still some tests which may not be a win-win all the way around, however, almost everything in general is an improvement with hardly any detracters.
So, saying, "we mostly rock", really is a true statement!
Nope. His take exactly mirrors my own experiences. I've seen farmed out projects which were supposed to be cheaper cost 30% more than what the highest priced US bid was. Sure, the Indian bid was far, far lower and they could throw far, far more resources at it, but in the end, the code was written poorly, deviated from specification in minor, yet obtuse ways, performed badly, were up to 2-years late, and in the end required US programmers to finally come in and save the day. One such project was only 2-million over on a project which was supposed to cost a little over 2-million.
Outsourcing is fraught with hidden costs. Because of the fact that your resources are in a far off land, simple problems can often become huge problems because managing them can be greatly complicated by distance, language, social expectations, assumptions, and work ethic (basic cultural differences).
While I'm sure there as to be some success stories, I've yet to personally see a single Indian outsourced success story. Not one. All that I've seen follow the same downward spirl.
If a company has no experience managing remote workers, the last thing they should ever get in bed with is an outsourced software development project. If they can't manage their own workers right up the street, they are doomed for failure with a much more complex project, which might be a thousand miles away. In fact, I've even seen companies bring Indian workers in to minimize some of the distance management issues, however, again, they followed the same downward spirl.
I do agree that flash is way over used, however, I have seem some good use of it. Links like this, I think do an excellent job of showing off a product which would otherwise be difficult. It also does an excellent job of building excitement about the product. Notice, however, the entire site is not made up of flash stuf. Over all, I very much like the "just right" feel you get from visiting them.
...and no, I'm not the web guy, nor do I work for them...
There is strong legal grounds for the county to be bankrupted after they lose that case, should they actually be sued.
Simple fact is, that's the job to the county and it's engineers to identify hot spots and protect the community. That's what our taxes are supposed to be paying for.
It's rather obvious. He didn't want to be another Kevin. Part of the problem with Kevin's ordeal is that they claimed he was such a public risk he couldn't be freed and that in the mean time, they needed to determine what the charges would be. It didn't matter that he was illegally and unconstitutionally held. It was stated by the FBI that they needed time to determine what his charges would be. Clearly Adrian is smart enough to not want to become the FBI's next illegal victim.
Correct! Not only are markups on jets very high but anything that is regulated by the FAA is heavily insured for liability. This, in turn, is happily passed along to everything you purchase for planes.
My father owns a small plane. Items which should cost $5-$10 for a car often cost $90 - $100 for a plane. You'd be amazed at the amount you pay for aviation insurance. My father pays something like $750.00/mo in insurance and he's been flying since before I was born.
Long story short, insurance and especially liability insurance adds a significant cost to all things aviation.
While I agree, that is funny, I do want to point something out. Software is NOT like the above statement. The software business is like the above statement. Real software is produced with a real process, including design, development and testing. It's just a sad state of affairs when most of the software industry doesn't even follow a minimal of best practises.
Since most people are more than happy to pay for complete crap, including bugs, being incomplete, and any number of other odd problems, there isn't any justification for people to want to change the software industry because people are not speaking with their dollar.
Just because software is buggy doesn't mean it has to be that way...it's just that too many people writing checks are far too stupid.
...be sure to test with a 2.6 test kernel to see if things react and work as you would hope and expect! Better to help shake things loose now rather than wait until after 2.6 is finally released.
...that stated the expected shelf life is 2-years for a CDR. While many can last much longer, you should not expect a realiable backup to persist beyond 2-years. In same cases, it can even be shorter, much shorter.
Wish I could remember where I read that..nonetheless, I've always told my clients to expect no more than 2-years out of the CDRs.
My thought exactly. I've been reading all these comments and been wondering what they can do that you can't already do with GkRellm.
I've been using it for years. I use it to change radio stations, monitor CPU, disks and network activity, get my local weather, use it as a mixer, watch the phase of the moon, and as a clock. Needless to say, there are tons of other plugins, I just use the ones that I like.
Not so! For you see, the cat can stay aloft as long as it still has lives to use. It would only sink and die following the expiriation of its last life.;)
Re:This isn't about freedom of speech or linking..
on
Linking Dangerously
·
· Score: 2, Informative
That doesn't have to be true. People take a plea bargin because they know that some large percent of the legal system is completely broken and they never know which side of the percentile they are on. Taking a plea bargin has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocense. It's called mitigating your risks, plain and simple.
Give a coin to a stranger, ask that person to flip it for you. If it's tails, you go to jail. If it's heads, you go free. Furthermore, if it's tails, flip again. If it's tails again, add on tens years to your stay. Believe it or not, going to court is more or less just like that. Don't believe me, ask any reasonable lawyer.
This is why many people plea bargin and even in some extreme cases, confess to something they didn't do. There are studies that actually support something like a large single digit of confessions are false. In these cases, they still go to jail. This is spite of the fact that evidence actually shows they didn't commit the crime. In fact, some of these cases have enough evidence to convict someone else, however, they are still not freed from jail.
The legal systems are nothing but a crap shoot, with the winner often being the person with the biggest wallet. Remember, courts have ZERO to do with justice!
Simple fact is, when a company lacks experience and/or knowledge on a subject, you acquire someone that does. In other words, they *previously* lacked experience and knowledge. *Now* they do have some have experience and knowledge.
This is probably a good move for Novell. They are competing in a server market where they are steadily losing ground, not to mention mind share. They really needed something to help open the door for them to help create sales. They need something for the desktop as well as something to help promote servers. They get both with this purchase.
Hell, we used all the nazi doctors' death-camp research didn't we?
Oh please. It's not like they (we) endorced the effort. Besides, if you were murdered, wouldn't you at least want that to somehow benfit man-kind rather than it being an empty death? I know I would. Many people donate their bodies to science. If they are murdered, should they be prevented from allowing others to benefit from their death. What about organ donors? I'm so tired of hearing about these obtuse and illogical moral grounds that surround that body of knowledge. It makes no sense, certainly not on moral grounds, to say the least.
And the US shipped all the nazi guys designing V-1s and V-2s (more terrorist devices than weapons) off to build ICBMs, to protect the land of the free.
So, we should imprision all weapon designers? You do realize that almost all of the research that the V1 and V2 were based on, had the foundation laid by a US researcher? Right? Should he of been killed too? Imprisioned? The nukes used at the end of WWII, one could argue, were much more of a terorist weapon than the V1 and V2. Should all of them of been shot or imprisioned, following the war?
Supporting research after some other jerk has got their hands dirty and killed some folk to get their answers (and taken the blame) is what we do in the 'civilised' west.
You do realize that much of the world is healthier, having taken that research. One can just as easily argue that it would of been a crime against humanity to not only make those deaths meaningless, but to destroy research which has gone on to help humanity.
You do realize that much of the world is healthier, having taken that research. One can just as easily argue that it would of been a crime against humanity to not only make those deaths meaningless, but to destroy research which has gone on to help humanity.
Both of which are currently legal. Even if you object on moral grounds, it rather foolish to do so. If they are available, because of abortion, it would be morally wrong to ignore a source or valuable research. Attempting to tie the two together is pretty silly. If we follow that logic, doctors and researches should no longer get bodies to learn and/or research.
The moral high ground you seem to be standing on seems more delusional than anything else I've seen before. If you have such morales, I assume you've never gone to the doctor. If you have, I don't think we have anything else to talk about.
Was nice of you to post as AC. Seems your reading skills need some work. Which makes it obvious why you posted as AC. I said, "it's not worth talking about". I never said Java wasn't faster. That's actually a fairly old version of Python and Java in that comparision. Now then, throw in a benchmark which actually allows for Java's GC to kick in, then you'll see Java's performace stumble, fall and simply cry. In turn, it significantly closes the performance gap. That's the biggest problem with by-n-far, most Java benchmarks. That is, they are short enough to prevent GC'ing from occuring. As such, it looks good on paper but performs much worse in real world applications. Python, on the other hand, constantly pays its collection dues when something falls out of scope. As such, most Java versus Python comparisions heavily bias toward Java. Create a benchmark which runs long enough for Java's collector to kick in, and you'll see a world of difference. Oddly enough, many real world applications help show this difference without problem.
The fact that python constantly collects is one of the reasons why python has a much smaller memory footprint than java. Don't forget that Python just got 10%-30% faster too. That too should significantly help close the remaining performance gap. Still even more funny, Python has not been significantly optimized to date. That means you can continue to expect python's performance to increase. Java, on the other hand, is pretty much about as fast as it's going to get.
You need to learn how to compare apples to apples and even know what you are talking about. All of the above is why, in real world terms, the performance differences between Java and Python s not worth talking about. Want to compare performance of wxPython with Swing? Be prepared to laugh until you pee.
Ya! Everyone knows that firewalls, routers, print servers, file servers, various misc. embedded devices, including network devices, java computers, so on and so on, don't qualify as "real computing."
This is a common saying when you talk with Python/Java programers. Plus, with something like wxPython, you can have a slick client application to boot.
Last time I saw unbiased performance comparisions, the difference between Python and Java wasn't really worth talking about.
I guess I didn't realize that "power-saving mode" meant "shutting down and doing nothing". I thought you just meant the more power-hungry operations would be postponed.
Moving is probably one of the most power hungry activities that it can do.
Slashdot Mirror
That statement simply is not true. Granted, you can always find some corner case where the workload is going to be slower between releases (2.x or 2.6), however, as a rule of thumb, 2.6 should still be a huge improvement for even uniprocessor users. Best yet, many, many parameters of the kernel and scheduler are tunable, so, you can always adopt the kernel to work best for your specific workload needs.
While it's true that they are working hard to significantly improve Linux for the server room, by far, they have never lost site of the uniprocessor user. Remember, there is nothing wrong with tuning the kernel for your uniprocessor needs, and specific workloads. They just can't do that when they are benchmarking because it would skew the results, invalidating them. They are not only trying to measure how their improvements effect the overall system, but, what makes for sane initial defaults, which are reflective of a general purpose and broad workload. If you understand what you are doing, there is not a reason to believe that you can't greatly improve things for your specific uses and workloads. It's important to keep all of these in mind when talking about these benchmarks. Furthermore, you should fully expect your favorite distro to come with tuning presents which reflect a targeted workload (file/print server, workstation, database, web server, etc.).
Keep in mind that the benchmark you looked at represents one category of many different types of workloads. So, for that specific workload, it may of been slower, however, that workload my not represent anything you do with your computer. Remember, other types of workloads are significantly faster. One last note, remember, performance is the classic trade off with lower latencies. It trades responsiveness for raw throughput. If, on a uniprocessor workstation, you only see a -7% drop in performance and latency is greatly reduced, chances are, not only will you never notice the loss in performance, but you'll be praising it for how well it works with your mouse, monitor and keyboard (if feels better and makes you a happier user).
Just some food for thought.
Yes, there are. The scheduler is fully HT aware. It seems that many of the SMP and numa optimizations also apply to HT'ing as well. As such, the developers have been working hard to support it.
Worth noting, however, it's not uncommon, even for a system that fully supports HT, to see a noteworthy performance drop when HT is enabled. Seems many new systems come with HT disabled in the BIOS for this very reason. Granted, I'm not 100% that's not a Window's specific issue rather than a broad-board HT issue, but something to keep in mind, nonetheless.
You are correct! The scheduler reacts different to different work loads. This is why the kernel developers try hard to test their changes under a number of different workloads. To top it off with, they attempt to target the benchmarks which behave like real-world work loads rather than contrived and unrealistic workloads. That's not to say that they don't test those too, however, they clearly direct more attention at real-world workloads and corrosponding result sets.
The 2.6x series kernels will be a big step up for just about everyone that seriously uses their computer. Significant realiability improvements as well as faster thoughput on disks, much, much higher scalability for SMP (hyperthreading and numa and even highly loaded uni-systems) systems, and much lower latencies, all at the same time. Granted, there are still some tests which may not be a win-win all the way around, however, almost everything in general is an improvement with hardly any detracters.
So, saying, "we mostly rock", really is a true statement!
Ya, that was my first reaction too. Then, I assumed that there must of been some sorta of quota system in place.
Nope. His take exactly mirrors my own experiences. I've seen farmed out projects which were supposed to be cheaper cost 30% more than what the highest priced US bid was. Sure, the Indian bid was far, far lower and they could throw far, far more resources at it, but in the end, the code was written poorly, deviated from specification in minor, yet obtuse ways, performed badly, were up to 2-years late, and in the end required US programmers to finally come in and save the day. One such project was only 2-million over on a project which was supposed to cost a little over 2-million.
Outsourcing is fraught with hidden costs. Because of the fact that your resources are in a far off land, simple problems can often become huge problems because managing them can be greatly complicated by distance, language, social expectations, assumptions, and work ethic (basic cultural differences).
While I'm sure there as to be some success stories, I've yet to personally see a single Indian outsourced success story. Not one. All that I've seen follow the same downward spirl.
If a company has no experience managing remote workers, the last thing they should ever get in bed with is an outsourced software development project. If they can't manage their own workers right up the street, they are doomed for failure with a much more complex project, which might be a thousand miles away. In fact, I've even seen companies bring Indian workers in to minimize some of the distance management issues, however, again, they followed the same downward spirl.
LOL...it probably does avoid allocation failures... ;)
LOL
I do agree that flash is way over used, however, I have seem some good use of it. Links like this, I think do an excellent job of showing off a product which would otherwise be difficult. It also does an excellent job of building excitement about the product. Notice, however, the entire site is not made up of flash stuf. Over all, I very much like the "just right" feel you get from visiting them.
...and no, I'm not the web guy, nor do I work for them...
There is strong legal grounds for the county to be bankrupted after they lose that case, should they actually be sued.
Simple fact is, that's the job to the county and it's engineers to identify hot spots and protect the community. That's what our taxes are supposed to be paying for.
It's rather obvious. He didn't want to be another Kevin. Part of the problem with Kevin's ordeal is that they claimed he was such a public risk he couldn't be freed and that in the mean time, they needed to determine what the charges would be. It didn't matter that he was illegally and unconstitutionally held. It was stated by the FBI that they needed time to determine what his charges would be. Clearly Adrian is smart enough to not want to become the FBI's next illegal victim.
Correct! Not only are markups on jets very high but anything that is regulated by the FAA is heavily insured for liability. This, in turn, is happily passed along to everything you purchase for planes.
My father owns a small plane. Items which should cost $5-$10 for a car often cost $90 - $100 for a plane. You'd be amazed at the amount you pay for aviation insurance. My father pays something like $750.00/mo in insurance and he's been flying since before I was born.
Long story short, insurance and especially liability insurance adds a significant cost to all things aviation.
While I agree, that is funny, I do want to point something out. Software is NOT like the above statement. The software business is like the above statement. Real software is produced with a real process, including design, development and testing. It's just a sad state of affairs when most of the software industry doesn't even follow a minimal of best practises.
Since most people are more than happy to pay for complete crap, including bugs, being incomplete, and any number of other odd problems, there isn't any justification for people to want to change the software industry because people are not speaking with their dollar.
Just because software is buggy doesn't mean it has to be that way...it's just that too many people writing checks are far too stupid.
...be sure to test with a 2.6 test kernel to see if things react and work as you would hope and expect! Better to help shake things loose now rather than wait until after 2.6 is finally released.
...that stated the expected shelf life is 2-years for a CDR. While many can last much longer, you should not expect a realiable backup to persist beyond 2-years. In same cases, it can even be shorter, much shorter.
Wish I could remember where I read that..nonetheless, I've always told my clients to expect no more than 2-years out of the CDRs.
Someone, please mod the parent up!
My thought exactly. I've been reading all these comments and been wondering what they can do that you can't already do with GkRellm.
I've been using it for years. I use it to change radio stations, monitor CPU, disks and network activity, get my local weather, use it as a mixer, watch the phase of the moon, and as a clock. Needless to say, there are tons of other plugins, I just use the ones that I like.
Not so! For you see, the cat can stay aloft as long as it still has lives to use. It would only sink and die following the expiriation of its last life. ;)
That doesn't have to be true. People take a plea bargin because they know that some large percent of the legal system is completely broken and they never know which side of the percentile they are on. Taking a plea bargin has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocense. It's called mitigating your risks, plain and simple.
Give a coin to a stranger, ask that person to flip it for you. If it's tails, you go to jail. If it's heads, you go free. Furthermore, if it's tails, flip again. If it's tails again, add on tens years to your stay. Believe it or not, going to court is more or less just like that. Don't believe me, ask any reasonable lawyer.
This is why many people plea bargin and even in some extreme cases, confess to something they didn't do. There are studies that actually support something like a large single digit of confessions are false. In these cases, they still go to jail. This is spite of the fact that evidence actually shows they didn't commit the crime. In fact, some of these cases have enough evidence to convict someone else, however, they are still not freed from jail.
The legal systems are nothing but a crap shoot, with the winner often being the person with the biggest wallet. Remember, courts have ZERO to do with justice!
Simple fact is, when a company lacks experience and/or knowledge on a subject, you acquire someone that does. In other words, they *previously* lacked experience and knowledge. *Now* they do have some have experience and knowledge.
This is probably a good move for Novell. They are competing in a server market where they are steadily losing ground, not to mention mind share. They really needed something to help open the door for them to help create sales. They need something for the desktop as well as something to help promote servers. They get both with this purchase.
LOL. Sorry, the morse code comment is pretty funny.
Fair enough. I read your again, and it still came across as I originally read. Seems we crossed wires or something.
Cheers.
Hell, we used all the nazi doctors' death-camp research didn't we?
Oh please. It's not like they (we) endorced the effort. Besides, if you were murdered, wouldn't you at least want that to somehow benfit man-kind rather than it being an empty death? I know I would. Many people donate their bodies to science. If they are murdered, should they be prevented from allowing others to benefit from their death. What about organ donors? I'm so tired of hearing about these obtuse and illogical moral grounds that surround that body of knowledge. It makes no sense, certainly not on moral grounds, to say the least.
And the US shipped all the nazi guys designing V-1s and V-2s (more terrorist devices than weapons) off to build ICBMs, to protect the land of the free.
So, we should imprision all weapon designers? You do realize that almost all of the research that the V1 and V2 were based on, had the foundation laid by a US researcher? Right? Should he of been killed too? Imprisioned? The nukes used at the end of WWII, one could argue, were much more of a terorist weapon than the V1 and V2. Should all of them of been shot or imprisioned, following the war?
Supporting research after some other jerk has got their hands dirty and killed some folk to get their answers (and taken the blame) is what we do in the 'civilised' west.
You do realize that much of the world is healthier, having taken that research. One can just as easily argue that it would of been a crime against humanity to not only make those deaths meaningless, but to destroy research which has gone on to help humanity.
You do realize that much of the world is healthier, having taken that research. One can just as easily argue that it would of been a crime against humanity to not only make those deaths meaningless, but to destroy research which has gone on to help humanity.
Both of which are currently legal. Even if you object on moral grounds, it rather foolish to do so. If they are available, because of abortion, it would be morally wrong to ignore a source or valuable research. Attempting to tie the two together is pretty silly. If we follow that logic, doctors and researches should no longer get bodies to learn and/or research.
The moral high ground you seem to be standing on seems more delusional than anything else I've seen before. If you have such morales, I assume you've never gone to the doctor. If you have, I don't think we have anything else to talk about.
Was nice of you to post as AC. Seems your reading skills need some work. Which makes it obvious why you posted as AC. I said, "it's not worth talking about". I never said Java wasn't faster. That's actually a fairly old version of Python and Java in that comparision. Now then, throw in a benchmark which actually allows for Java's GC to kick in, then you'll see Java's performace stumble, fall and simply cry. In turn, it significantly closes the performance gap. That's the biggest problem with by-n-far, most Java benchmarks. That is, they are short enough to prevent GC'ing from occuring. As such, it looks good on paper but performs much worse in real world applications. Python, on the other hand, constantly pays its collection dues when something falls out of scope. As such, most Java versus Python comparisions heavily bias toward Java. Create a benchmark which runs long enough for Java's collector to kick in, and you'll see a world of difference. Oddly enough, many real world applications help show this difference without problem.
The fact that python constantly collects is one of the reasons why python has a much smaller memory footprint than java. Don't forget that Python just got 10%-30% faster too. That too should significantly help close the remaining performance gap. Still even more funny, Python has not been significantly optimized to date. That means you can continue to expect python's performance to increase. Java, on the other hand, is pretty much about as fast as it's going to get.
You need to learn how to compare apples to apples and even know what you are talking about. All of the above is why, in real world terms, the performance differences between Java and Python s not worth talking about. Want to compare performance of wxPython with Swing? Be prepared to laugh until you pee.
I didn't read the story. So shoot me. Afterwards, anyone care to share the expected price for a CPU? What about the price of a motherboard?
Ya! Everyone knows that firewalls, routers, print servers, file servers, various misc. embedded devices, including network devices, java computers, so on and so on, don't qualify as "real computing."
This is a common saying when you talk with Python/Java programers. Plus, with something like wxPython, you can have a slick client application to boot.
Last time I saw unbiased performance comparisions, the difference between Python and Java wasn't really worth talking about.
I guess I didn't realize that "power-saving mode" meant "shutting down and doing nothing". I thought you just meant the more power-hungry operations would be postponed.
Moving is probably one of the most power hungry activities that it can do.