My personal feelings is that an ORM makes the easy stuff easier and the difficult more difficult. Dealing with aggregate queries, complex joins and huge datasets requires a good knowledge of the ORM and how it generates SQL. If you're used to having direct access to the DB, getting the ORM to do the proper magic can be frustrating.
This code you posted, though, would be bad regardless of using an ORM or not. I've seen the same thing using regular SQL to grab all the rows and then filtering them out in a code loop. This is just bad, un-scalable code in general. The right way to do this with an ORM is to just use it's expression or criteria functionality to do the filtering instead of grabbing all the records.
Re:If it's anything like the rest of ASP.net...
on
Microsoft Releases Atlas
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Well.NET controls are made to be extended. If you're just ignoring that functionality, though (dealing with custom forms and parsing out the post and get values perhaps) then you're not really buying into.NET - you're just writing normal apps in C# instead of some other language. The form and component stuff is what allows you to design web pages the same way you would design an event-based windows GUI.
The ATLAS framework, for people who do get into.NET style programming, is freakin awesome. All you have to do is drag an ATLAS panel on to your existing page, put the controls you want inside that panel, and that part of your page now refreshes via ajax. It's so simple, it almost seems like cheating.
I would assume, but have not tested it, if the browser doesn't support ajax, ATLAS will dumb it down to regular form posts. Coding that by hand would be a huge amount of effort.
Actually you could make this class totally generic by having it query the DB for all the field information. That could even include validation to make sure the input is the right type, length, etc. All the info you need for that is in the DB. The problem is that, unless you're just writing a generic DB table editor app, you generally need unique methods for each table/object.
If you find this kind of thing interesting, it's probably worth checking out some persistance layers like hibernate or (for PHP) Propel
I understand this, but I don't think it changes my point. That kind of complexity can be solved with asking "what are all possible inputs" and "what are all possible outputs"?
In a theoretical situation where you're working on a simple program, that might be a valid strategy. Another approach might be to say, "what are all the possible states of the program." You could then put the program into all those states and test that they're all stable.
If you take a program like FireFox, though, you don't get off that easy. The possible inputs/outputs/states are too great to test - even if you could fully automate it. For example, how many different java-scripts can be written? The possibility is already infinite and that's just one small aspect of a browser. One solution is that you automate as much testing as you can, you use as many utilities as you can, and you have a QA process in place so that everything gets tested as much as humanly possible...
... then the marketing manager comes in last minute and you have to make some crappy change because of some deal that was made with another company
... then the admin upgrades the version control system and you spend a whole day getting your automated unit tests running correctly
... oops! we missed our launch deadline. the boss is now yelling at everyone and it's getting stressful around here. we're all staying late and working our asses off to get this out the door. people are getting tired and making stupid mistakes.
... then you finally manage to get all the critical bugs off the list. now there's only 25 medium priorities and less than a hundred low priority items
... ah! at last you ship or launch the software. only 50 low priority bugs left in the QA system - excellent!
I can imagine it's probably easy to think of a bug as some kind of syntax mistake or typo in the program where, were you to look at the offending line, it would be obvious. That may be true in some rare cases, but with complex programs like FireFox a bug or security hole can be caused by an unusual reaction or side-effect that happens only when two components interact under some specific, unusual (often unexpected) circumstance. There may not be one single line with a mistake - it may encompass various libraries or even the architecture of the application. When a program grows beyond a certain size, the possible interactions grow exponentially and it isn't realistic to simply test every situation by hand.
Also, the code-base is constantly evolving. A new feature or a fix in one place may break something else. If there are 1,000 developers working on the code, then it is likely a large code-base and developers each work on their own tiny part. There is probably not an individual developer who knows all of the code.
Writing solid code is very tough, especially so as the organization grows. The coders do need to follow best practices as you mention, but you need a lot more than that. A good QA procedure and getting people to follow the rules in a large organization is really a difficult task. My hat is off to companies that do a good job.
It's a pretty classic argument of strict syntax vs loose syntax. You can either see the strict syntax as shackles or a useful tool. Dynamic typing gives you more freedom, but offers you no protection. Sure, you can argue that it forces you to be dilligent about your coding practices, but the burden is on you to not make any mistakes.
My biggest problem is that the errors that do usually happen from type-related problems tend to be difficult to find. Rounding errors and wierd behaviors when a "523" gets treated as ASCII - they can waste hours debugging. Just one of those can easily out-do any overhead from using a typed language.
I personally would like something like the Perl strict and the old VB option explicit features. That only applied to declaring your variables, though, niether of them care about the type. If you could force strict typing when you need it, that would be pretty cool.
In the case where companies do this, they're really just passing along a tax break to their employees as a perk. The company still pays the tax in one way or another. They either pay taxes on the re-sale of the computer to the employee, or they have $2,000 less wage expenses to report. (I suspect the latter)
I'm sure corporations have various legal ways of reporting the purchase so that they get a little kick-back themselves. Where the employee would have paid $500 tax, the corporation might pay $350 tax, for example. So the company gets to look like a nicer guy than they really are. Corporate tax laws are a maze of constantly changing regulations & loopholes.
I think perhaps the more intelligent thing to have said is "beware of doing international transactions on ebay." Of course we in the US like to imagine ourselves at the center of the world and every place else is "another country". We tend to forget that people in other countries get taken advantage of as well.
The reality is that if your ebay deal goes south and it's an international trade, you might as well forget getting your goods or money back. I sold something once and the buyer was outside my country. I thought it was cool that I was doing an international trade! The buyer paid with PayPal. About a month later I was notified that the PayPal account was fraudulent. They withdrew the $150 back and charged me $25 on top of that for the chargeback. Since he was not a "verified paypal" member I did not qualify for seller protection.
I do agree with you on the default admin user thing - that's my main gripe with Windows. But as far as stability, I think you might be having some hardware problems or something. What you describe I would consider unacceptable. Of the 50 or so machines that I deal with (personal and work) I've never seen or heard about any of them crashing regularly like you describe - even with really heavy use. Some are pushing their machines with development tools, multimedia editing, cad design, etc. Some are your average email/spreadsheet users. The only time I've ever see a machine that unstable is when it's been infected with a virus or spy-ware.
These days the only software that I see regular crashes from are games and video editing. If find this to be consistent on Windows, Mac and Linux. But, even that stuff isn't crashing every four hours.
Be thankful you don't work at some of the smaller places where I've worked. You'd be spending the last two weeks documenting, tying up loose ends and training people to take over your work. My last two weeks has sometimes been stressful with a lot of overtime. Maybe that's my own doing, but I like to think that I leave things in good shape.
I suppose if I felt mistreated or hated the job, manager, etc, I might not feel the need to try so hard, though. In which case, they probably would be better off just locking me out and sending me home.
Security is a process. If you're able to lock down and maintain your own computer then you don't need to pay for services like these. There's also free alternatives if you need anti-virus protection.
I don't see anything indicating that you have to purchase this add-on. If they offered it for free, it probably would put several companies out of business. Then you guys would bitch about MS crushing another company.
I had thought that, with LGPL, you only needed to provide the source code upon request. I didn't think that it was manditory to include source with a normal release of your product. Does someone know if that is true or not?
The amount of correlation between the Wizard of Oz and Dark Side of the Moon is directly proportional to the amount of acid that you drop. That's what I hear, anyway.
The persistence layer is nice for separating the logic in the app, but it doesn't mean you have to sacrifice the database server's built-in power & functionality. Persistence layers can map to stored procedures, views, etc.
Also, like the man says, sometimes there's other types of apps connecting to your DB, maybe not all within your control. If you're responsible for the health of the data and the system, you may not be able to trust that every developer or system is playing nice.
Open source and DRM could actually work together. I use GPG to encrypt my private info all the time. DRM isn't much different. You need a private key, otherwise the data is useless. Having the source code of the algorithm shouldn't change anything. If the private key is tied to you personally, then you're probably not going to distribute it.
Here's the funny part... If you really believe in the open source model, then it follows that open source developers would produce a *better* DRM system! DRM is really just about protecting content. There's tons of open source solutions for that type of thing out there already.
I don't buy into the typical movie pirate's mantra because if everybody went along with their philosophy then the arts as we know if wouldn't be possible. If everybody jumped on board, the ship would sink. Pirates get a free ride from paying customers. Perhaps they should go stand outside the theaters and thanks everyone in line for funding "free" entertainment.
I know a few people who pirate stuff all the time. No matter what they preach about morals, I never see them buy anything. They never support the artists - even those that they love. They brag about everything that they get for free and how stupid people are for paying. Some have gotten to the point where they are downright offended at the thought of paying for any entertainment.
I don't like it when I see a disappointing movie. But, they can't all be great. Making a movie is a tough, expensive job - try it sometime. If you don't think it has any value then don't watch movies. If you appreciate movies, music, etc then support the arts. Go buy a ticket once in a while!
Dude. You are BLOWING MY MIND! Hey, pass the bong this way... yea... glug... glug... glug...
Hey, did you ever imagine that our whole universe as we know it might just be a tiny atom in, like, the fingernail of some dude in some other, like... GIANT universe? I mean, whoa... this is some good shit!
I used Ext2FS Anywhere by Paragon a while back on a dual-boot machine. The Linux partition just shows up like a regular drive in windows explorer. I paid the $29 or whatever for it. Used it that one time, then never again. They also make Mount Everything which does the same thing plus more stuff.
Well, my personal experience is with hibenate. It might not work quite the same as SQLObject.
hibernate does have a feature that allows you to use direct SQL calls. However, it's definitely no magic bullet for solving every problem. Also, using native SQL seems to be recommended only as a last resort by OO purists and ORM snobs such as myself. The more you add, the more you lose your DB independence.
One simple example of a tricky situation is that I may want data from tables that requires loading 75% of my entire graph. I practically have to load the whole database just to get a few fields. So I have to dig deep into the mapping files & loading strategies. I may optimize these for one view at the expense of another. So, I may have to compromise at times.
To me, it is worth the trade-off. I'm pro-ORM. But, not because it necessarily saves me time. I would still say that trickery, voodoo and a bit of black magic are all required when using an ORM on a complex project.
Persistance layers are cool for a lot of reasons. Though, it definitely takes some getting used to for those of us who have developed a lot of SQL driven applications.
Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that a persistance layer will be less development work for you - I have found this to be untrue. I can use automated tools to get myself 80% of the way there. For anything substantial, though, it always seem to wind up being more work as I figure out how to configure & trick the persistance layer into giving me my data in the most efficient way. This can be frustrating when you know how to accomplish the same thing in 5 seconds using plain SQL. Maybe it's just me?
But, if you do manage to get over the hump, the benefit is that your business logic layer is very clean with no DB code whatsoever. If you use it properly, you can get 100% separation between these layers.
If you're using a strongly typed language, you get the added bonus of compile-time checks for certain illegal assigment errors. You don't have to fumble around with things like converting dates into SQL. You don't have to check for SQL injection. Lots of other little things.
Slashdot Mirror
My personal feelings is that an ORM makes the easy stuff easier and the difficult more difficult. Dealing with aggregate queries, complex joins and huge datasets requires a good knowledge of the ORM and how it generates SQL. If you're used to having direct access to the DB, getting the ORM to do the proper magic can be frustrating.
This code you posted, though, would be bad regardless of using an ORM or not. I've seen the same thing using regular SQL to grab all the rows and then filtering them out in a code loop. This is just bad, un-scalable code in general. The right way to do this with an ORM is to just use it's expression or criteria functionality to do the filtering instead of grabbing all the records.
Well .NET controls are made to be extended. If you're just ignoring that functionality, though (dealing with custom forms and parsing out the post and get values perhaps) then you're not really buying into .NET - you're just writing normal apps in C# instead of some other language. The form and component stuff is what allows you to design web pages the same way you would design an event-based windows GUI.
.NET style programming, is freakin awesome. All you have to do is drag an ATLAS panel on to your existing page, put the controls you want inside that panel, and that part of your page now refreshes via ajax. It's so simple, it almost seems like cheating.
The ATLAS framework, for people who do get into
I would assume, but have not tested it, if the browser doesn't support ajax, ATLAS will dumb it down to regular form posts. Coding that by hand would be a huge amount of effort.
I was expecting the typical pasty-white nerdy looking guy. this dude looks like a thug
Actually you could make this class totally generic by having it query the DB for all the field information. That could even include validation to make sure the input is the right type, length, etc. All the info you need for that is in the DB. The problem is that, unless you're just writing a generic DB table editor app, you generally need unique methods for each table/object.
If you find this kind of thing interesting, it's probably worth checking out some persistance layers like hibernate or (for PHP) Propel
I understand this, but I don't think it changes my point. That kind of complexity can be solved with asking "what are all possible inputs" and "what are all possible outputs"?
... then the marketing manager comes in last minute and you have to make some crappy change because of some deal that was made with another company
... then the admin upgrades the version control system and you spend a whole day getting your automated unit tests running correctly
... oops! we missed our launch deadline. the boss is now yelling at everyone and it's getting stressful around here. we're all staying late and working our asses off to get this out the door. people are getting tired and making stupid mistakes.
... then you finally manage to get all the critical bugs off the list. now there's only 25 medium priorities and less than a hundred low priority items
... ah! at last you ship or launch the software. only 50 low priority bugs left in the QA system - excellent!
In a theoretical situation where you're working on a simple program, that might be a valid strategy. Another approach might be to say, "what are all the possible states of the program." You could then put the program into all those states and test that they're all stable.
If you take a program like FireFox, though, you don't get off that easy. The possible inputs/outputs/states are too great to test - even if you could fully automate it. For example, how many different java-scripts can be written? The possibility is already infinite and that's just one small aspect of a browser. One solution is that you automate as much testing as you can, you use as many utilities as you can, and you have a QA process in place so that everything gets tested as much as humanly possible...
I can imagine it's probably easy to think of a bug as some kind of syntax mistake or typo in the program where, were you to look at the offending line, it would be obvious. That may be true in some rare cases, but with complex programs like FireFox a bug or security hole can be caused by an unusual reaction or side-effect that happens only when two components interact under some specific, unusual (often unexpected) circumstance. There may not be one single line with a mistake - it may encompass various libraries or even the architecture of the application. When a program grows beyond a certain size, the possible interactions grow exponentially and it isn't realistic to simply test every situation by hand.
Also, the code-base is constantly evolving. A new feature or a fix in one place may break something else. If there are 1,000 developers working on the code, then it is likely a large code-base and developers each work on their own tiny part. There is probably not an individual developer who knows all of the code.
Writing solid code is very tough, especially so as the organization grows. The coders do need to follow best practices as you mention, but you need a lot more than that. A good QA procedure and getting people to follow the rules in a large organization is really a difficult task. My hat is off to companies that do a good job.
It's a pretty classic argument of strict syntax vs loose syntax. You can either see the strict syntax as shackles or a useful tool. Dynamic typing gives you more freedom, but offers you no protection. Sure, you can argue that it forces you to be dilligent about your coding practices, but the burden is on you to not make any mistakes.
My biggest problem is that the errors that do usually happen from type-related problems tend to be difficult to find. Rounding errors and wierd behaviors when a "523" gets treated as ASCII - they can waste hours debugging. Just one of those can easily out-do any overhead from using a typed language.
I personally would like something like the Perl strict and the old VB option explicit features. That only applied to declaring your variables, though, niether of them care about the type. If you could force strict typing when you need it, that would be pretty cool.
That works if the employee is resigning of his/her own choice.
If they've been fired, why the hell would you want them training anyone anyway?
In the case where companies do this, they're really just passing along a tax break to their employees as a perk. The company still pays the tax in one way or another. They either pay taxes on the re-sale of the computer to the employee, or they have $2,000 less wage expenses to report. (I suspect the latter)
I'm sure corporations have various legal ways of reporting the purchase so that they get a little kick-back themselves. Where the employee would have paid $500 tax, the corporation might pay $350 tax, for example. So the company gets to look like a nicer guy than they really are. Corporate tax laws are a maze of constantly changing regulations & loopholes.
I think perhaps the more intelligent thing to have said is "beware of doing international transactions on ebay." Of course we in the US like to imagine ourselves at the center of the world and every place else is "another country". We tend to forget that people in other countries get taken advantage of as well.
The reality is that if your ebay deal goes south and it's an international trade, you might as well forget getting your goods or money back. I sold something once and the buyer was outside my country. I thought it was cool that I was doing an international trade! The buyer paid with PayPal. About a month later I was notified that the PayPal account was fraudulent. They withdrew the $150 back and charged me $25 on top of that for the chargeback. Since he was not a "verified paypal" member I did not qualify for seller protection.
I do agree with you on the default admin user thing - that's my main gripe with Windows. But as far as stability, I think you might be having some hardware problems or something. What you describe I would consider unacceptable. Of the 50 or so machines that I deal with (personal and work) I've never seen or heard about any of them crashing regularly like you describe - even with really heavy use. Some are pushing their machines with development tools, multimedia editing, cad design, etc. Some are your average email/spreadsheet users. The only time I've ever see a machine that unstable is when it's been infected with a virus or spy-ware.
These days the only software that I see regular crashes from are games and video editing. If find this to be consistent on Windows, Mac and Linux. But, even that stuff isn't crashing every four hours.
Be thankful you don't work at some of the smaller places where I've worked. You'd be spending the last two weeks documenting, tying up loose ends and training people to take over your work. My last two weeks has sometimes been stressful with a lot of overtime. Maybe that's my own doing, but I like to think that I leave things in good shape.
I suppose if I felt mistreated or hated the job, manager, etc, I might not feel the need to try so hard, though. In which case, they probably would be better off just locking me out and sending me home.
Security is a process. If you're able to lock down and maintain your own computer then you don't need to pay for services like these. There's also free alternatives if you need anti-virus protection.
I don't see anything indicating that you have to purchase this add-on. If they offered it for free, it probably would put several companies out of business. Then you guys would bitch about MS crushing another company.
Wow, Indian call center workers are getting the impression that Americans don't like talking to them? How could they have possibly gotten that idea?
Sounds like there is only one side to this coin, my friend.
Took about 157 seconds on a Pentium M 1.2
I had thought that, with LGPL, you only needed to provide the source code upon request. I didn't think that it was manditory to include source with a normal release of your product. Does someone know if that is true or not?
The amount of correlation between the Wizard of Oz and Dark Side of the Moon is directly proportional to the amount of acid that you drop. That's what I hear, anyway.
You forgot one...
5. Google Toolbar extention no longer works
aye caramba
The persistence layer is nice for separating the logic in the app, but it doesn't mean you have to sacrifice the database server's built-in power & functionality. Persistence layers can map to stored procedures, views, etc.
Also, like the man says, sometimes there's other types of apps connecting to your DB, maybe not all within your control. If you're responsible for the health of the data and the system, you may not be able to trust that every developer or system is playing nice.
Open source and DRM could actually work together. I use GPG to encrypt my private info all the time. DRM isn't much different. You need a private key, otherwise the data is useless. Having the source code of the algorithm shouldn't change anything. If the private key is tied to you personally, then you're probably not going to distribute it.
Here's the funny part... If you really believe in the open source model, then it follows that open source developers would produce a *better* DRM system! DRM is really just about protecting content. There's tons of open source solutions for that type of thing out there already.
I don't buy into the typical movie pirate's mantra because if everybody went along with their philosophy then the arts as we know if wouldn't be possible. If everybody jumped on board, the ship would sink. Pirates get a free ride from paying customers. Perhaps they should go stand outside the theaters and thanks everyone in line for funding "free" entertainment.
I know a few people who pirate stuff all the time. No matter what they preach about morals, I never see them buy anything. They never support the artists - even those that they love. They brag about everything that they get for free and how stupid people are for paying. Some have gotten to the point where they are downright offended at the thought of paying for any entertainment.
I don't like it when I see a disappointing movie. But, they can't all be great. Making a movie is a tough, expensive job - try it sometime. If you don't think it has any value then don't watch movies. If you appreciate movies, music, etc then support the arts. Go buy a ticket once in a while!
Dude. You are BLOWING MY MIND! Hey, pass the bong this way... yea... glug... glug... glug...
Hey, did you ever imagine that our whole universe as we know it might just be a tiny atom in, like, the fingernail of some dude in some other, like... GIANT universe? I mean, whoa... this is some good shit!
I used Ext2FS Anywhere by Paragon a while back on a dual-boot machine. The Linux partition just shows up like a regular drive in windows explorer. I paid the $29 or whatever for it. Used it that one time, then never again. They also make Mount Everything which does the same thing plus more stuff.
Well, my personal experience is with hibenate. It might not work quite the same as SQLObject.
hibernate does have a feature that allows you to use direct SQL calls. However, it's definitely no magic bullet for solving every problem. Also, using native SQL seems to be recommended only as a last resort by OO purists and ORM snobs such as myself. The more you add, the more you lose your DB independence.
One simple example of a tricky situation is that I may want data from tables that requires loading 75% of my entire graph. I practically have to load the whole database just to get a few fields. So I have to dig deep into the mapping files & loading strategies. I may optimize these for one view at the expense of another. So, I may have to compromise at times.
To me, it is worth the trade-off. I'm pro-ORM. But, not because it necessarily saves me time. I would still say that trickery, voodoo and a bit of black magic are all required when using an ORM on a complex project.
Persistance layers are cool for a lot of reasons. Though, it definitely takes some getting used to for those of us who have developed a lot of SQL driven applications.
Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that a persistance layer will be less development work for you - I have found this to be untrue. I can use automated tools to get myself 80% of the way there. For anything substantial, though, it always seem to wind up being more work as I figure out how to configure & trick the persistance layer into giving me my data in the most efficient way. This can be frustrating when you know how to accomplish the same thing in 5 seconds using plain SQL. Maybe it's just me?
But, if you do manage to get over the hump, the benefit is that your business logic layer is very clean with no DB code whatsoever. If you use it properly, you can get 100% separation between these layers.
If you're using a strongly typed language, you get the added bonus of compile-time checks for certain illegal assigment errors. You don't have to fumble around with things like converting dates into SQL. You don't have to check for SQL injection. Lots of other little things.