Was talking about technology in Singapore and the proliferation of SMS use there. Check out CC's website (specifically episode 1939) for more info. Some things I remember from the show include checking books out of the library (including libraries put in the mall, not just some dedicated structure near nothing popular with the kids), getting grades distributed and even ordering movie tickets in advance. With the whole SMS system for ticket purchase there was even talk of offering cut-rate pricing just before the show on remaining seating.
What plot? This movie was completely lacking in plot and enough twists to even keep it moderately interesting. I think the movie was titled Insomnia if only to suggest it was a cure for insomnia. I was literally fighting off sleep watching it at 2 in the afternoon.
This was one of those movies where the entire thing is given away part way into it and you find yourself thinking "gee, it has to end up with (not saying) but I hope they don't do it in the truely obvious Hollywood ending" and then the ending is the same thing you were hoping it wouldn't be all along.
I was hoping for something on the same playing field as Seven, with twists and turns and things you just don't see coming - something that keeps you guessing. Insomnia only had one "neat" moment where there was a slight bit of "I didn't fully see that part coming" but the rest is just torn from so many other movies.
Then there are the plot holes, what author has his name in the phone book? How come someone so smart with criminals and murderers not know to check out the killer's other house?
Add in the total lack of character development and you have a total waste of an afternoon.
Get the google toolbar, it allows you to right click a link and choose to load a cached snapshot of the page, as well as adding nice easy search features.
My grand father was in special forces in WWII and he was selected because as a kid he often went hunting to had a general knowledge of weapons and could be trusted to stand for long periods of time quietly in the woods.
He was selected early on and never received "regular" training. They did do a lot of things on their own, I remember he used to comment that they would take turns interogating those that they captured and the guy from NY would always kill his too early and they would never get good info.
Fark-like Not Safe For Work
on
Google Experiments
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I work at a place that is kind of touchy about content served up to those who signed the agreement to be allowed online, and that link to rude words I think needs one of the fark "Not Safe For Work" things after it.
Yeah, the thing doesn't link to boobies, but grepping for incoming text vs. grepping for inbound boobies is a tad easier for log generation.
Besides, I thought rude words just involved being insensitive, not foul.
Day Two: Driving tour of the major highlights of Moscow. After lunch you'll travel to Star City for a tour of the Yuri Garaging Cosmonaut Training Center, and begin the program.
Who is Yuri Garaging? I'm familiar with the Yuri Gagarin Cosmonauts Training Center and its namesake's accomplishments, but if they are sending you to some other place I suggest you stay away from these people.
Problem with the enigma picture?
on
Review: U-571
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· Score: 3, Informative
You have a problem that they had this picture of the enigma but don't have a real one? Did you ever stop to realize that the enigma machine was a commercialy available product in pre-WWII days and was used by the banking industry? Everyone involved in breaking it knew how it worked, no one happened to know the internal wiring the Germans tossed in. Once that was figured out (well, actually one was smuggled to the Brits in a super secret meeting) now we had the problem of the daily wheel positions. The problem wasn't so much finding the enigma machine, it was finding the code book!
There is a system where if you set your pre and post conditions well you can mathematically prove your code performs what is asked. You "simply" drag your post conditions up your code and if you arrive at a set where the pre conditions are at least a sub set, then you know if the input matches the post conditions will also be satisfied.
You need good things like loop invariants, and deep thought about what you wish to limit yourself to. But, if you start at the base procedures and work to building up to the ones that call these then you can work your way up to "if the input from user matches..." and then put in tons of good input checking and you're solid.
Now, this takes lots and lots of time, but maybe this is the sort of things you're looking to do. I used this method in designing an e-voting system to prove that things were encrypted properly and that the system would be stable.
Fun stuff.
Re:Official Signs that you'd think would be jokes.
on
Hacking the Highways
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· Score: 3, Funny
From where I'm at right now in PA, I'd have to go through Intercourse to get to Paradise.
I am however sad that in Reading the Road To Nowhere is now the POW MIA Highway, then again, now it does go someplace so I guess a new name was needed.
I really don't want to go through the trouble of burning CD's or backing up to tape...There's no reason I should ever have to delete anything ever again..
Ok, I like the idea of having all my stuff handy as well, but you need to think beyond just you deleting something... There are other reasons to backup your data including natural disaster. And no, burning stuff to a single CD and wiping it so you can play back your MP3s isn't a backup - you've just made the natural disaster issue portable.
Uh. Except that I cant find anything I'm looking for anymore.. Can't this search function go faster?
No clue what OS you use, do you have some form of *nix where you've got access to the locate command where it's not actively polling the drive when you request the info (however data can be stale)?
I remember going to the TCF back when it was at Mercer County Community College... now I have to drive all the way to Edison.
There was just something nice about that whole spread out deal, with dealers in the gym and around the classrooms and a good hike to the outdoor area. I just don't feel at home there anymore.
Yes, but if I went to a restaurant & they told me it was all you can eat for 7.99, I'd be pissed if I went to leave & they stopped me to pay for each item I ate.
I think the act of stating now what they plan to do later does not fit into your scheme of your not knowing of the possibility of higher rates later. There is a buffet in my area that charges more if you ask for special sushi that isn't on the normal buffet. Sure, the signs outside say it's all you can eat for a price, but there is a sign next to the sushi chef about specialty items.
Basically what TW is doing is shifting from being a pay once and play all you want to being a pay as much as you use. It's nothing really remarkable. There are different kinds of restuarants and there are different kinds of providers - get over it. If they did this switch and never told anyone, as you seem to suggest in your senerio then I'd have a problem with it. However, fact that you and I are posting about it now and this scheme hasn't happened yet I see as a difference.
There's a difference between renting that service and the way providing content is. There are things you buy whole, like at McDonald's and there are things you buy parts of: electricity and telephone spring to mind. The cable TV system has a fixed set of signal, and the more people who sign up the more the system is just configured to handle sending this information to them. If there's 1 or 1 million people, the content remains the same. Now, if we all flick on our blenders at the same time the power company needs to be able to handle this, while all of us flipping to NBC won't impact the cable provider.
As far as renting like you suggested, such as living in an apt. renting one of thost store-and-lock deals even then there are restrictions on use. Store and lock places aren't all 24x7, and those who are tend to cost more. My apartment complex has rules about how many cars I can park here, and how much work I can do on them on their property.
Get the picture yet?
Although there are places where you pay a one time fee and use the buffet as much as you want, there are others that force you to pick from a menu and pay for what you get - it's just that simple. You can pay a rate based on how many local phone calls you make, or up the thing to unlimited. If you exceed your base number you are just charged for the additional ones at some other higher fee than the bracket you are in.
which is why (like I said earlier) it has no use other than 5 fleeting seconds in an intro class - which is much much shorter than we have spent discussing the minutia
Re:Do you want it to be secure if so, none exist
on
Encryption by Hand?
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· Score: 2
Pretty much any other key based one is doomed
Ok, I'll grant you that yes, on the basis of other algs, finding the key (ie guessing) will produce the answer. However, you need to be careful when you use the concept of "pretty much" and then go on stating how something is not secure due to the inherent key guessing restrictions. Although I can't say there is one point or another that you make that I completely disagree with, it's probably just ambiguities in the language that erk me. Ok, yes, you can guess all the keys, but if you do not know what alg. I used (you do need to know what to stick your keys and the cipher text into, right?) your time to break my code grows - and it grows very large. Especially if I take a known alg. and alter it in a way that does not introduce some flaw, let's say I alter the SBoxes in DES to just as secure sets - now you have to know what alg. I used and what alterations I used. Then, how do you know when your brute force spits out the right answer? I could have sent the message: "SNaRFt" to my friends who happen to know that this means they need to attack at 1:21PM EDT. Presumably you will stumble upon key / alg. combos that will produce just as meaningful (to you) plain texts.
Yes, given enough time you can try all keys (within a finite length) and I guess you can try every SBox combo in DES (within a finite range of values) but how much time are we talking for just this set? Let alone the fact that you don't know if maybe I just used regular blowfish, or AES, or whatever.
Are Blowfish, AES, DES, whatever unbreakable? Heck no. But does that mean that even given a year you could break a particular code of mine? How about infinite time and the obvious issues shared with one time pads that you are not sure which possible plain text is the right one - can you ever say for sure you've cracked it?
Basic idea: is it theoretically possible to break something? Yup. Might the sun go nova before you get done? Pretty much. Would you even know when you got it? Hard to say.
The halting problem is regarding PROGRAMS, not algorithms.
Programs and algorithms are _not_ the same thing.
You are somewhat correct, but very misguided. The thread here is that if an "idea" doesn't terminate then it's not an alg. I can clearly devise an alg. to test another alg. / program. However, the halting problem states that I can never know for sure if this input ever terminates. Here, the input is a program, it's not a program itself. Infact, when we talk about TMs we often mention "On input which is the encoding of a machine..." thus we are supplying as input what you call a program.
I will stipulate that not all algs. are programs, since I can device a non-deterministic alg. (even using an oracle) that I can not program in the same way (ie, I can't make it poly time on a deterministic machine). However, I would like to know of one program that can not be defined via an alg.
Yes and No. I did leave out details. Consider this revised proof:
Definition: Interesting Numbers - numbers that have a name or a special property that describes them. Examples: Primes, telephone numbers, population of some town, etc...
Theorem: All Natural Numbers are interesting.
Proof: Assume that not all natural numbers are interesting. This implies there exists an uninteresting natural number or a set of uninteresting natural numbers. Now, we must only prove that this set is indeed interesting.
Method One: Basis: By the well ordering principle there exists a minimum value in this set. Because this number can be described as the minimum value in the set of ALL uninteresting numbers that means there is a description of this number and thus it is somewhat interesting and does not belong in this set.
We can inductively show numbers in the set are interesting. Not that each is now the minimum uninteresting, rather the ith member of the uninteresting set, thus making it interesting.
Method Two: Just state that being the member of a set for which there is a descritption makes all numbers in that set interesting (since they were just described). I do not really like this method however since it makes the entire proof un-elegantly trivial. To prove all numbers interesting we can just define two sets: the set of all numbers equal to 2, and those that are no equal to two. Maybe we need to argue that the cardinality of a set should not be 1 or 0 but then we can just make a set of all numbers greater than 1 and less than 4, and all numbers that aren't. Then there's the "interesting" issue of making two sets of equal size that partition the universe: even and odd numbers. It is easily shown that all natural numbers are either even or odd, and being odd or even is arguably interesting, thus all natural numbers are interesting. Then again, I'm babbling on about a truely meaningless property of numbers that I just use in an intro class to talk about simple proofs and WOP and induction, etc...
As for your barber problem, if you introduce a second barber they can each cut each other's hair, and thus begins the old joke about the small town with two barbers, one having nice hair, the other having horrible - which do you go to?
Poster's Sig: I have a theory it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove it.
Check out Gödel Incompleteness Theorem in your quest. I don't know if you were proving that anything interesting was unsolvable, but if you weren't then you're proof is by that nature interesting, and thus is unsolvable. This follows similar to the proof that all Natural numbers are interesting:
Consider numbers like prime numbers to be interesting, and any other number you like (maybe your favorite lucky number). Then, by the Well Ordering Principle there exists a minimum number that is un-interesting. This fact alone it atleast somewhat interesting, thus this number is now interesting. Thus there exists another number...
Therefore all Natural numbers are interesting. [X]
Well, I should clarify, you *can* work through DES, blowfish, etc... by hand (provided you have S-Boxes as needed) but I found it terribly time consuming when I had to do that in some proofs. I was kind of assuming you were thinking of a decent balance between security and getting done before the message contents are useless.
I think Knapsack is a simple system to do by "hand" if you know modular arith / number theory (to calculate the inverse modular operation). Plus it meets your public key "bonus."
It's not the most unbreakable code in the world, but better than ROT13 or even poly alphebetic cyphers (think Kasiski for breaking ploy's).
Microsoft trying to talk to students about "the source" is like your dad wanting to "rap" with you about drugs.
No... my father came away better informed about drugs (and for that matter sex) after he talked to me. Somehow I don't think MS will take to things as easy.
That's a shame - at my school we are knocking down a wall to expand our sun cluster and we require all programs submitted by students to compile on the suns as that is where we check the homework. All faculty have a sparc in their office and all students are issues prox cards to access the room with the suns.
The room we dream of is some sort of lab where the kids would be allowed to play around with OSes and play with hacking tools - something not allowed to touch our unniversity network, so we'd like to go disjoint.
Slashdot Mirror
Was talking about technology in Singapore and the proliferation of SMS use there. Check out CC's website (specifically episode 1939) for more info. Some things I remember from the show include checking books out of the library (including libraries put in the mall, not just some dedicated structure near nothing popular with the kids), getting grades distributed and even ordering movie tickets in advance. With the whole SMS system for ticket purchase there was even talk of offering cut-rate pricing just before the show on remaining seating.
What plot? This movie was completely lacking in plot and enough twists to even keep it moderately interesting. I think the movie was titled Insomnia if only to suggest it was a cure for insomnia. I was literally fighting off sleep watching it at 2 in the afternoon.
This was one of those movies where the entire thing is given away part way into it and you find yourself thinking "gee, it has to end up with (not saying) but I hope they don't do it in the truely obvious Hollywood ending" and then the ending is the same thing you were hoping it wouldn't be all along.
I was hoping for something on the same playing field as Seven, with twists and turns and things you just don't see coming - something that keeps you guessing. Insomnia only had one "neat" moment where there was a slight bit of "I didn't fully see that part coming" but the rest is just torn from so many other movies.
Then there are the plot holes, what author has his name in the phone book? How come someone so smart with criminals and murderers not know to check out the killer's other house?
Add in the total lack of character development and you have a total waste of an afternoon.
Get the google toolbar, it allows you to right click a link and choose to load a cached snapshot of the page, as well as adding nice easy search features.
My grand father was in special forces in WWII and he was selected because as a kid he often went hunting to had a general knowledge of weapons and could be trusted to stand for long periods of time quietly in the woods.
He was selected early on and never received "regular" training. They did do a lot of things on their own, I remember he used to comment that they would take turns interogating those that they captured and the guy from NY would always kill his too early and they would never get good info.
I work at a place that is kind of touchy about content served up to those who signed the agreement to be allowed online, and that link to rude words I think needs one of the fark "Not Safe For Work" things after it.
Yeah, the thing doesn't link to boobies, but grepping for incoming text vs. grepping for inbound boobies is a tad easier for log generation.
Besides, I thought rude words just involved being insensitive, not foul.
From the ebay page:
Day Two: Driving tour of the major highlights of Moscow. After lunch you'll travel to Star City for a tour of the Yuri Garaging Cosmonaut Training Center, and begin the program.
Who is Yuri Garaging? I'm familiar with the Yuri Gagarin Cosmonauts Training Center and its namesake's accomplishments, but if they are sending you to some other place I suggest you stay away from these people.
You have a problem that they had this picture of the enigma but don't have a real one? Did you ever stop to realize that the enigma machine was a commercialy available product in pre-WWII days and was used by the banking industry? Everyone involved in breaking it knew how it worked, no one happened to know the internal wiring the Germans tossed in. Once that was figured out (well, actually one was smuggled to the Brits in a super secret meeting) now we had the problem of the daily wheel positions. The problem wasn't so much finding the enigma machine, it was finding the code book!
There is a system where if you set your pre and post conditions well you can mathematically prove your code performs what is asked. You "simply" drag your post conditions up your code and if you arrive at a set where the pre conditions are at least a sub set, then you know if the input matches the post conditions will also be satisfied.
You need good things like loop invariants, and deep thought about what you wish to limit yourself to. But, if you start at the base procedures and work to building up to the ones that call these then you can work your way up to "if the input from user matches..." and then put in tons of good input checking and you're solid.
Now, this takes lots and lots of time, but maybe this is the sort of things you're looking to do. I used this method in designing an e-voting system to prove that things were encrypted properly and that the system would be stable.
Fun stuff.
From where I'm at right now in PA, I'd have to go through Intercourse to get to Paradise.
I am however sad that in Reading the Road To Nowhere is now the POW MIA Highway, then again, now it does go someplace so I guess a new name was needed.
I really don't want to go through the trouble of burning CD's or backing up to tape...There's no reason I should ever have to delete anything ever again..
Ok, I like the idea of having all my stuff handy as well, but you need to think beyond just you deleting something... There are other reasons to backup your data including natural disaster. And no, burning stuff to a single CD and wiping it so you can play back your MP3s isn't a backup - you've just made the natural disaster issue portable.
Uh. Except that I cant find anything I'm looking for anymore.. Can't this search function go faster?
No clue what OS you use, do you have some form of *nix where you've got access to the locate command where it's not actively polling the drive when you request the info (however data can be stale)?
I remember going to the TCF back when it was at Mercer County Community College... now I have to drive all the way to Edison.
There was just something nice about that whole spread out deal, with dealers in the gym and around the classrooms and a good hike to the outdoor area. I just don't feel at home there anymore.
Yes, but if I went to a restaurant & they told me it was all you can eat for 7.99, I'd be pissed if I went to leave & they stopped me to pay for each item I ate.
I think the act of stating now what they plan to do later does not fit into your scheme of your not knowing of the possibility of higher rates later. There is a buffet in my area that charges more if you ask for special sushi that isn't on the normal buffet. Sure, the signs outside say it's all you can eat for a price, but there is a sign next to the sushi chef about specialty items.
Basically what TW is doing is shifting from being a pay once and play all you want to being a pay as much as you use. It's nothing really remarkable. There are different kinds of restuarants and there are different kinds of providers - get over it. If they did this switch and never told anyone, as you seem to suggest in your senerio then I'd have a problem with it. However, fact that you and I are posting about it now and this scheme hasn't happened yet I see as a difference.
There's a difference between renting that service and the way providing content is. There are things you buy whole, like at McDonald's and there are things you buy parts of: electricity and telephone spring to mind. The cable TV system has a fixed set of signal, and the more people who sign up the more the system is just configured to handle sending this information to them. If there's 1 or 1 million people, the content remains the same. Now, if we all flick on our blenders at the same time the power company needs to be able to handle this, while all of us flipping to NBC won't impact the cable provider.
As far as renting like you suggested, such as living in an apt. renting one of thost store-and-lock deals even then there are restrictions on use. Store and lock places aren't all 24x7, and those who are tend to cost more. My apartment complex has rules about how many cars I can park here, and how much work I can do on them on their property.
Get the picture yet?
Although there are places where you pay a one time fee and use the buffet as much as you want, there are others that force you to pick from a menu and pay for what you get - it's just that simple. You can pay a rate based on how many local phone calls you make, or up the thing to unlimited. If you exceed your base number you are just charged for the additional ones at some other higher fee than the bracket you are in.
which is why (like I said earlier) it has no use other than 5 fleeting seconds in an intro class - which is much much shorter than we have spent discussing the minutia
Pretty much any other key based one is doomed
Ok, I'll grant you that yes, on the basis of other algs, finding the key (ie guessing) will produce the answer. However, you need to be careful when you use the concept of "pretty much" and then go on stating how something is not secure due to the inherent key guessing restrictions. Although I can't say there is one point or another that you make that I completely disagree with, it's probably just ambiguities in the language that erk me. Ok, yes, you can guess all the keys, but if you do not know what alg. I used (you do need to know what to stick your keys and the cipher text into, right?) your time to break my code grows - and it grows very large. Especially if I take a known alg. and alter it in a way that does not introduce some flaw, let's say I alter the SBoxes in DES to just as secure sets - now you have to know what alg. I used and what alterations I used. Then, how do you know when your brute force spits out the right answer? I could have sent the message: "SNaRFt" to my friends who happen to know that this means they need to attack at 1:21PM EDT. Presumably you will stumble upon key / alg. combos that will produce just as meaningful (to you) plain texts.
Yes, given enough time you can try all keys (within a finite length) and I guess you can try every SBox combo in DES (within a finite range of values) but how much time are we talking for just this set? Let alone the fact that you don't know if maybe I just used regular blowfish, or AES, or whatever.
Are Blowfish, AES, DES, whatever unbreakable? Heck no. But does that mean that even given a year you could break a particular code of mine? How about infinite time and the obvious issues shared with one time pads that you are not sure which possible plain text is the right one - can you ever say for sure you've cracked it?
Basic idea: is it theoretically possible to break something? Yup. Might the sun go nova before you get done? Pretty much. Would you even know when you got it? Hard to say.
The halting problem is regarding PROGRAMS, not algorithms.
Programs and algorithms are _not_ the same thing.
You are somewhat correct, but very misguided. The thread here is that if an "idea" doesn't terminate then it's not an alg. I can clearly devise an alg. to test another alg. / program. However, the halting problem states that I can never know for sure if this input ever terminates. Here, the input is a program, it's not a program itself. Infact, when we talk about TMs we often mention "On input which is the encoding of a machine..." thus we are supplying as input what you call a program.
I will stipulate that not all algs. are programs, since I can device a non-deterministic alg. (even using an oracle) that I can not program in the same way (ie, I can't make it poly time on a deterministic machine). However, I would like to know of one program that can not be defined via an alg.
Yes and No. I did leave out details. Consider this revised proof:
Definition: Interesting Numbers - numbers that have a name or a special property that describes them. Examples: Primes, telephone numbers, population of some town, etc...
Theorem: All Natural Numbers are interesting.
Proof: Assume that not all natural numbers are interesting. This implies there exists an uninteresting natural number or a set of uninteresting natural numbers. Now, we must only prove that this set is indeed interesting.
Method One:
Basis: By the well ordering principle there exists a minimum value in this set. Because this number can be described as the minimum value in the set of ALL uninteresting numbers that means there is a description of this number and thus it is somewhat interesting and does not belong in this set.
We can inductively show numbers in the set are interesting. Not that each is now the minimum uninteresting, rather the ith member of the uninteresting set, thus making it interesting.
Method Two:
Just state that being the member of a set for which there is a descritption makes all numbers in that set interesting (since they were just described). I do not really like this method however since it makes the entire proof un-elegantly trivial. To prove all numbers interesting we can just define two sets: the set of all numbers equal to 2, and those that are no equal to two. Maybe we need to argue that the cardinality of a set should not be 1 or 0 but then we can just make a set of all numbers greater than 1 and less than 4, and all numbers that aren't. Then there's the "interesting" issue of making two sets of equal size that partition the universe: even and odd numbers. It is easily shown that all natural numbers are either even or odd, and being odd or even is arguably interesting, thus all natural numbers are interesting. Then again, I'm babbling on about a truely meaningless property of numbers that I just use in an intro class to talk about simple proofs and WOP and induction, etc...
As for your barber problem, if you introduce a second barber they can each cut each other's hair, and thus begins the old joke about the small town with two barbers, one having nice hair, the other having horrible - which do you go to?
Poster's Sig:
I have a theory it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove it.
Check out Gödel Incompleteness Theorem in your quest. I don't know if you were proving that anything interesting was unsolvable, but if you weren't then you're proof is by that nature interesting, and thus is unsolvable. This follows similar to the proof that all Natural numbers are interesting:
Consider numbers like prime numbers to be interesting, and any other number you like (maybe your favorite lucky number). Then, by the Well Ordering Principle there exists a minimum number that is un-interesting. This fact alone it atleast somewhat interesting, thus this number is now interesting. Thus there exists another number...
Therefore all Natural numbers are interesting.
[X]
One of the most popular pre-WWII ciphers was the Playfair Cipher. Very simple, just know the code word of the day.
Well, I should clarify, you *can* work through DES, blowfish, etc... by hand (provided you have S-Boxes as needed) but I found it terribly time consuming when I had to do that in some proofs. I was kind of assuming you were thinking of a decent balance between security and getting done before the message contents are useless.
I think Knapsack is a simple system to do by "hand" if you know modular arith / number theory (to calculate the inverse modular operation). Plus it meets your public key "bonus."
It's not the most unbreakable code in the world, but better than ROT13 or even poly alphebetic cyphers (think Kasiski for breaking ploy's).
We used to be able to check out mail using telnet (even art majors do that), now they are asking everybody to install Outlook express.
Hmmm, I wonder what's more secure having students telnet and type their passwords in the clear or the bloated and buggy outlook?
Microsoft trying to talk to students about "the source" is like your dad wanting to "rap" with you about drugs.
No... my father came away better informed about drugs (and for that matter sex) after he talked to me. Somehow I don't think MS will take to things as easy.
sometimes just a teaching tool isn't always something for use in industry.
Two words; Visual Basic
You are implying that the little program where the OK button "moves" whenever my mouse gets near it as not a viable use for VB??
Ok, maybe you're right...
That's a shame - at my school we are knocking down a wall to expand our sun cluster and we require all programs submitted by students to compile on the suns as that is where we check the homework. All faculty have a sparc in their office and all students are issues prox cards to access the room with the suns.
The room we dream of is some sort of lab where the kids would be allowed to play around with OSes and play with hacking tools - something not allowed to touch our unniversity network, so we'd like to go disjoint.