Without any law enforcement, assume they are willing to cheat everything. If you trusted the regulated, then there would be no point in regulators.
At this point you're right about the remedy. Allow the already sold engines to remain as they are, and fine the shit out of VW. But fining them so much as to kill the company doesn't help anyone now.
It would have been far better to catch them 6 years ago.
I guess the message is, we will wait until restitution is not possible, and then come down on you and likely destroy you. Who does that help again?
I'd rather see actual, timely law and regulation enforcement. "Hey, your car pollutes too much. You can't sell them here until you fix it."
That way, we get the clean air we wanted, and nobody dies. I bet most were unaware that the whole thing works on the honor system, and the EPA doesn't actually test anything. I sure didn't know it.
To me, the EPA has culpability here too. The reason it's so bad is that they sold the motor for 6 years.
How come they weren't caught when the first ones made it over here? That would have been a handful recalled, and VW would have had to redesign. Which still would have been hard on them. But not devastating for them, as well as all these customers.
Oh, and by the way, all the money that were running through was appropriated by a Democratic Congress. Reagan tried repeatedly to balance the budget, and was defeated politically. That was back when the Democrats did the government shutdowns. Although the Republicans still got blamed for it. Weird.
He thought that the temporary debt was worth it; that it could be paid off after the fact with the 'peace dividend'. (Remember that?) He was right, it could have been, and almost was. What other people did after he left is not his fault.
Exactly. How brilliant was that? It was a complete bluff.
Just in case you weren't there: We all bought into Star Wars. All of us. To a nerd, it seemed kind of far fetched, but plausible in theory. Non-nerds bought it hook line and sinker. They said they could do it. The CIA has secret shit that we don't know about. That's true today; it was certainly true then. To make it a plausible bluff, they needed to convince us first.
Who cares what we thought, really; the Russians bought it. That's what mattered.
There was one alternative to beating them with dollars. I know in hindsight, you think you know a better, third path. One that us mouth-breathers from the previous generation couldn't possibly comprehend, now that you're all enlightened and shit. You really think it was all Reagan just political posturing?
Khrushchev took his fucking shoe off and banged it on the UN podium when he told us he was coming. "We will bury you", I believe, is a direct quote.
Reagan engaged the Russians on the battlefield of his choice, and won handily. Had we engaged them on the battlefields of Central Europe and the US West Coast, (and we all know what battlefield that would have led to), things would have gone far differently; trust me on that.
A good part of the reason you are able to post whatever politics you subscribe to on/. today, is Reagan. You either realize that, or at least realize there is no point in arguing it with those that were actually scared of a nuclear war.
I think you get his little joke. Or maybe not - kids nowadays...
It just so happened. Heh. Obviously, if things had been the other way around; they would have won, we would have lost, and you would be standing in line for bread instead of posting on/.
Can't you kids at least wait until we die before you rewrite history?
I knew you meant the first Duo, not the 2, I just mis-typed. I only meant to say that those first Intels were not 'that' bad. I guess I wouldn't have gotten 5 years if I had bought 5 months earlier.
Everything you say about the iPhone is true. I still don't those things were that big a deal.
I'm going to defer to your opinion in this matter.
"The iPhone wasn't better than the Moto or other smartphones"
Really? What Moto? I did love my flip StarTac and Razr. But sort of Apples and oranges, if you'll pardon the pun. The Droid, which came long after the original iPhone, was a total piece of crap. Same for the Droid X2. I cursed them both pretty much every time I pulled them out. The Droid will make you miss your damn flip phones.
Was smartphone even a word yet? I remember 'PDA' and Palm and Blackberry. I have to admit my memory sometimes sucks though.
Yes, by the 3rd gen, the competition had had time to copy and catch up.
Apple kit has always (actually not always, but mostly) been expensive, at least on initial purchase. But they do hold their value. If join the Apple ecosystem, you start to count on being able to sell it for half what you paid for it. I'm curious, what is that used Sansa worth today, compared to a 3rd gen iPod?
Less space than the RIO at 32MB? (the market leader a the time) Creative's hulking, button covered, non-pocketable giant thing did have a 6 GB drive, but it sure didn't get 10 hours of battery. If you used it like an iPod, you made up the price quickly in AAs. The iPod began to sell well (well, meaning breaking all records) when it became Windows compatible. It was still expensive and sold anyway. How's Diamond doing these days?
Steve got a standing O on the original iPhone. There was nothing else even close. At all. Did you ever use a Blackberry with the ball running WinCE? Hell, there was nothing like it on Star Trek. This is the biggest indicator that you and I have lived in different universes.
I know 2 people still using original iPads. They still fetch, what; just under a 100 bucks used? Again, nothing else like it on the market when it came out.
I have the core 2 duo Intel MacBook Pro, the gen after yours. Still works fine. Used it daily for 5 years. The core 2 was abandoned? It was almost 3 years later when the latest OS didn't have a 32 bit option, and at least a year after that before anyone missed not having 64 bitness. Hell, I still miss 10.3 & 10.4.
The G5 was the best machine I ever had to this day. (My Umax J700 was a close second) I remember the chirping issue, but I guess mine didn't have it, or I never noticed doing my IT-ish work and the occasional DTP. The only audio I did was playing music.
I remember now being warned about Windstars. I guess Ford was pretty inconsistent at the time.
And my Escort wasn't perfect, although it did have exactly one vacuum line, which impressed me.
The brakes were too small. I went through at least a half dozen pairs of rotors in all those miles. I'll give it to Ford (or should I say Mazda?) that they were easily changed and cheap (separate rotor and hub); but they were undersized and softer than the fancy semi-metallic pads. Of course, many of those miles were on gravel logging roads in the Ozarks, and quite a few in the Smokies also.
Which reminds me; it didn't have a low gear. It had D and 2 (3 speed), so going down a mountain at 20 mph; you rode the brakes all the way down. That annoyed me a little.
It ate tires until I got tired of it, and went to my Firestone dealer and demanded the most expensive tires that would fit it (13s). He sold me 80,000 mile Bridgestone Turanzas, which I ran for about 75,000 miles.
The drivers side automatic shoulder belt drive mechanism broke early on. You had to connect the driver's shoulder belt manually afterwards. Not a big deal, but it did break.
The rubber timing belt snapped on it around 70K. When they say 60K, they mean it. (forgive me if I forget my numbers) It did have the decency to break down a mile from the local Ford dealer, and in being a non-interference engine. My truck and a chain saved us a tow. The Ford dealer replaced the perfectly working water pump so the warranty would cover it all.
The battery blew up like a bomb (scary), but this time, in the Wal-Mart parking lot. Convenient.
That car just had good karma. Apple products often do too.;)
Hm, I'd like an example of below average. Maybe their TV thing; but I'm not sure that market is or was all that well defined in any case. It's their weakest product, but it does what they say it will, and your granny can plug it in and start watching shows on it in about 5 minutes.
Computer with a GUI and a mouse, portable music player, smartphone; all were slap your forehead better than everything else on the market. What am I forgetting? Was 'smartphone' even a word when the iPhone came out?
I think you just dislike Apple to the point that you have to rationalize away their successes.
Hm. I bought a '91 Ford Escort new in August of '90; first one off the truck. In ten years we got 340,000 miles out of that thing; still didn't burn a drop of oil; automatic transmission was getting a bit soft when I sold it. Had a lot in common with the Mazda 323, (Mazda and Ford were partners at the time) built by Ford in Ohio. It was a joy to own and drive
Wonder where your Fiesta was built? Not in the USA; they don't build them here. Not that built in the US guarantees anything. But I've heard stories about Mexican built Escorts (a few years later than mine) that sound nothing like that wonderful car I had.
And don't forget, passed in the middle of the night. On Christmas Eve. Marathon session where no one is allowed to leave the capitol building. Ink still wet; it was not hours old at the vote. And passed without a single Republican vote.
And yet, still, Republicans are to blame. Somehow, for something. Filibusters! Arrgh...
actually, one of the suspicious things about the recalled VWs is that even though they claim 49 mpg on the sticker, many have observed 60 mpg in the real world. 70 would not be that much of a stretch.
It optimizes for several different scenarios. I'm not sure they admitted to cheating yet. I think they've admitted that the cars do actively adjust performance/emissions.
Is it? What if it comes out that they obeyed the letter of the regulations?
Obviously, that is an academic question, as the regulations are written in such a way, over thousands of pages, as to make it impossible for you and I to have a clue ourselves. We will know what we are told, and that is all. And there is no recourse, on the off chance that we wanted to find out for ourselves.
Yes, that is a rabbit hole that has no end really. Half the people at the company end up being liable in some way, and in the end it is up to the prosecutor's personal choices on who gets indicted. I don't like that kind of law. Obviously, negligent bosses that get worker's hands cut off should get hit criminally, but that's not what we're talking about here.
It's better for the stockholders to take it in the ass, if there's ass taking to be had. Stocks are supposed to be risky; if you don't trust the company and the brand; don't buy it.
Slashdot Mirror
Without any law enforcement, assume they are willing to cheat everything. If you trusted the regulated, then there would be no point in regulators.
At this point you're right about the remedy. Allow the already sold engines to remain as they are, and fine the shit out of VW. But fining them so much as to kill the company doesn't help anyone now.
It would have been far better to catch them 6 years ago.
I love when people go there to justify their arguments.
Since life is unfair, you are justified in acting unfairly.
Well they let this slide for 6 years didn't they?
I guess the message is, we will wait until restitution is not possible, and then come down on you and likely destroy you. Who does that help again?
I'd rather see actual, timely law and regulation enforcement. "Hey, your car pollutes too much. You can't sell them here until you fix it."
That way, we get the clean air we wanted, and nobody dies. I bet most were unaware that the whole thing works on the honor system, and the EPA doesn't actually test anything. I sure didn't know it.
Agreed. They belched clouds of black smoke while unable to pull a greasy string from a cat's ass.
Night and day difference here, even with the increased NOx.
To me, the EPA has culpability here too. The reason it's so bad is that they sold the motor for 6 years.
How come they weren't caught when the first ones made it over here? That would have been a handful recalled, and VW would have had to redesign. Which still would have been hard on them. But not devastating for them, as well as all these customers.
What the fuck has the EPA been doing for 6 years?
Oh, and by the way, all the money that were running through was appropriated by a Democratic Congress. Reagan tried repeatedly to balance the budget, and was defeated politically. That was back when the Democrats did the government shutdowns. Although the Republicans still got blamed for it. Weird.
He thought that the temporary debt was worth it; that it could be paid off after the fact with the 'peace dividend'. (Remember that?) He was right, it could have been, and almost was. What other people did after he left is not his fault.
Exactly. How brilliant was that? It was a complete bluff.
Just in case you weren't there: We all bought into Star Wars. All of us. To a nerd, it seemed kind of far fetched, but plausible in theory. Non-nerds bought it hook line and sinker. They said they could do it. The CIA has secret shit that we don't know about. That's true today; it was certainly true then. To make it a plausible bluff, they needed to convince us first.
Who cares what we thought, really; the Russians bought it. That's what mattered.
There was one alternative to beating them with dollars. I know in hindsight, you think you know a better, third path. One that us mouth-breathers from the previous generation couldn't possibly comprehend, now that you're all enlightened and shit. You really think it was all Reagan just political posturing?
Khrushchev took his fucking shoe off and banged it on the UN podium when he told us he was coming. "We will bury you", I believe, is a direct quote.
Reagan engaged the Russians on the battlefield of his choice, and won handily. Had we engaged them on the battlefields of Central Europe and the US West Coast, (and we all know what battlefield that would have led to), things would have gone far differently; trust me on that.
A good part of the reason you are able to post whatever politics you subscribe to on /. today, is Reagan. You either realize that, or at least realize there is no point in arguing it with those that were actually scared of a nuclear war.
I think you get his little joke. Or maybe not - kids nowadays...
It just so happened. Heh. Obviously, if things had been the other way around; they would have won, we would have lost, and you would be standing in line for bread instead of posting on /.
Can't you kids at least wait until we die before you rewrite history?
He defeated the Soviet Union using dollars instead of your dad.
Brilliant, although there turned out to be a catch; now we get to listen to you.
And soon after the moon has rings generated from dirt bike rooster tails.
Nice.
I knew you meant the first Duo, not the 2, I just mis-typed. I only meant to say that those first Intels were not 'that' bad. I guess I wouldn't have gotten 5 years if I had bought 5 months earlier.
Everything you say about the iPhone is true. I still don't those things were that big a deal.
I'm going to defer to your opinion in this matter.
"The iPhone wasn't better than the Moto or other smartphones"
Really? What Moto? I did love my flip StarTac and Razr. But sort of Apples and oranges, if you'll pardon the pun. The Droid, which came long after the original iPhone, was a total piece of crap. Same for the Droid X2. I cursed them both pretty much every time I pulled them out. The Droid will make you miss your damn flip phones.
Was smartphone even a word yet? I remember 'PDA' and Palm and Blackberry. I have to admit my memory sometimes sucks though.
5GB vs. 6GB, and no, they didn't have wireless.
Yes, by the 3rd gen, the competition had had time to copy and catch up.
Apple kit has always (actually not always, but mostly) been expensive, at least on initial purchase. But they do hold their value. If join the Apple ecosystem, you start to count on being able to sell it for half what you paid for it. I'm curious, what is that used Sansa worth today, compared to a 3rd gen iPod?
Less space than the RIO at 32MB? (the market leader a the time) Creative's hulking, button covered, non-pocketable giant thing did have a 6 GB drive, but it sure didn't get 10 hours of battery. If you used it like an iPod, you made up the price quickly in AAs. The iPod began to sell well (well, meaning breaking all records) when it became Windows compatible. It was still expensive and sold anyway. How's Diamond doing these days?
Steve got a standing O on the original iPhone. There was nothing else even close. At all. Did you ever use a Blackberry with the ball running WinCE? Hell, there was nothing like it on Star Trek. This is the biggest indicator that you and I have lived in different universes.
I know 2 people still using original iPads. They still fetch, what; just under a 100 bucks used? Again, nothing else like it on the market when it came out.
I have the core 2 duo Intel MacBook Pro, the gen after yours. Still works fine. Used it daily for 5 years. The core 2 was abandoned? It was almost 3 years later when the latest OS didn't have a 32 bit option, and at least a year after that before anyone missed not having 64 bitness. Hell, I still miss 10.3 & 10.4.
The G5 was the best machine I ever had to this day. (My Umax J700 was a close second) I remember the chirping issue, but I guess mine didn't have it, or I never noticed doing my IT-ish work and the occasional DTP. The only audio I did was playing music.
Perhaps some of us just see what we want.
I remember now being warned about Windstars. I guess Ford was pretty inconsistent at the time.
And my Escort wasn't perfect, although it did have exactly one vacuum line, which impressed me.
The brakes were too small. I went through at least a half dozen pairs of rotors in all those miles. I'll give it to Ford (or should I say Mazda?) that they were easily changed and cheap (separate rotor and hub); but they were undersized and softer than the fancy semi-metallic pads. Of course, many of those miles were on gravel logging roads in the Ozarks, and quite a few in the Smokies also.
Which reminds me; it didn't have a low gear. It had D and 2 (3 speed), so going down a mountain at 20 mph; you rode the brakes all the way down. That annoyed me a little.
It ate tires until I got tired of it, and went to my Firestone dealer and demanded the most expensive tires that would fit it (13s). He sold me 80,000 mile Bridgestone Turanzas, which I ran for about 75,000 miles.
The drivers side automatic shoulder belt drive mechanism broke early on. You had to connect the driver's shoulder belt manually afterwards. Not a big deal, but it did break.
The rubber timing belt snapped on it around 70K. When they say 60K, they mean it. (forgive me if I forget my numbers) It did have the decency to break down a mile from the local Ford dealer, and in being a non-interference engine. My truck and a chain saved us a tow. The Ford dealer replaced the perfectly working water pump so the warranty would cover it all.
The battery blew up like a bomb (scary), but this time, in the Wal-Mart parking lot. Convenient.
That car just had good karma. Apple products often do too. ;)
Hm, I'd like an example of below average. Maybe their TV thing; but I'm not sure that market is or was all that well defined in any case. It's their weakest product, but it does what they say it will, and your granny can plug it in and start watching shows on it in about 5 minutes.
Computer with a GUI and a mouse, portable music player, smartphone; all were slap your forehead better than everything else on the market. What am I forgetting? Was 'smartphone' even a word when the iPhone came out?
I think you just dislike Apple to the point that you have to rationalize away their successes.
No, I didn't hear.
Must have had the radio up too loud...
Hm. I bought a '91 Ford Escort new in August of '90; first one off the truck. In ten years we got 340,000 miles out of that thing; still didn't burn a drop of oil; automatic transmission was getting a bit soft when I sold it. Had a lot in common with the Mazda 323, (Mazda and Ford were partners at the time) built by Ford in Ohio. It was a joy to own and drive
Wonder where your Fiesta was built? Not in the USA; they don't build them here. Not that built in the US guarantees anything. But I've heard stories about Mexican built Escorts (a few years later than mine) that sound nothing like that wonderful car I had.
And don't forget, passed in the middle of the night. On Christmas Eve. Marathon session where no one is allowed to leave the capitol building. Ink still wet; it was not hours old at the vote. And passed without a single Republican vote.
And yet, still, Republicans are to blame. Somehow, for something. Filibusters! Arrgh...
Obviously, you can't hear yourself.
actually, one of the suspicious things about the recalled VWs is that even though they claim 49 mpg on the sticker, many have observed 60 mpg in the real world. 70 would not be that much of a stretch.
It optimizes for several different scenarios. I'm not sure they admitted to cheating yet. I think they've admitted that the cars do actively adjust performance/emissions.
It probably won't, but it could be legal enough to cause the EPA to want to negotiate and settle.
They are good cars, and the owners like them very much the way they are.
Is it? What if it comes out that they obeyed the letter of the regulations?
Obviously, that is an academic question, as the regulations are written in such a way, over thousands of pages, as to make it impossible for you and I to have a clue ourselves. We will know what we are told, and that is all. And there is no recourse, on the off chance that we wanted to find out for ourselves.
Does that bother you at all? It bothers me.
Yes, that is a rabbit hole that has no end really. Half the people at the company end up being liable in some way, and in the end it is up to the prosecutor's personal choices on who gets indicted. I don't like that kind of law. Obviously, negligent bosses that get worker's hands cut off should get hit criminally, but that's not what we're talking about here.
It's better for the stockholders to take it in the ass, if there's ass taking to be had. Stocks are supposed to be risky; if you don't trust the company and the brand; don't buy it.