I don't know that it's so much whether you get to decide whether to keep pretending...
...the news media gets to decide whether you keep pretending.
And, in all likelihood, the government has a very large influence on what the media gets to report.
Between media deception and government deception, it's time for everyone to become extremely cautious about accepting the pablum that's pumped through that glass tube.
And, perhaps, it's time to demand something better from both of 'em.
Anyway, I got to thinking: if (most of) the world governments are going to seek and destroy terrorist cells, those that lead terrorist cells, and those that fund them, are they going to do a comprehensive job of it?
I'm figuring that part of the reason ol' Tony Blair is mounting his war steed is that he wants to eliminate the IRA. One hopes he'll be equally vicious with the Orange Volunteers and other Protestant creeps.
The Spanish have the Basque freedom fighters. Chile has a guerilla group that's nothing but trouble, too. Japan had those freaks that Sarin-gassed the subway system, although I think they got rid of 'em. And the mainland Asian triads: they're a real fucking problem over here on the west coast.
This is a helluva opportunity. If it got out of control, it'd be downright scary: anyone with a dissenting opinion might end up labelled as a terrorist and shot.
I'm also fairly keen to see what is going to happen with regards those that fund terrorists. For instance, there could be a lot of imprisoned, if not executed, Irish Americans who keep sending money to the goddamn IRA and Orangemen. I won't even talk about those who donate to Israeli and Islamic radical/terrorist groups.
Not sure where the line gets drawn, though. Is the Mafia gonna be toasted? It's a borderline terrorist organization, ain't it? And the Drug Enforcement Agency simply must be considered a terrorist group, along with the CIA...
Interesting times. Very interesting times. I'm not sure how much more interesting I really want them to get, though...
You should probably attempt to calmly ignore his crazy ranting, and concentrate on cluing in those who actually think he's a good guy. He's powerless without an audience.
For those of you wishing some sense of closure, perhaps the Ars Technica thread will assist. It contains dozens upon dozens of photographs of people around the world memorializing the tragedy.
It is touching. And in between the pictures, the words of support and gratefulness will move you.
If there is a single positive outcome to this terrible event, it is that over a billion people have realized the important truth: we are all one people, united in humanity because we are all human.
Together, we could create a utopia. Divided, we create terror, pain, and tragedy.
Let our next thoughts, next decisions, next actions lead us toward a better world.
If you'd recall, I posted a dozen international and alternative web news feeds, and soliticited links to others.
Further, you've made the unfortunate mistake of confusing "deserve" with "contributed to."
The Taliban, which has been harbouring bin Laden, came to power only through US influence; likewise the radicals in control of Pakistan and the rule of Saddam Hussein are attributable to US operations. Decades of US foreign policy have contributed to the development of an environment in which terrorist groups have identified America with Satan.
However, you'll undoubtedly wish to pretend that this problem developed in a vacuum. You do so at your peril.
Posted at no-score, and with no intention of continuing this discussion.
One might want to ask the question, "Why is Israel under such threat?"
The answer, of course, is that it's because a bunch of interfering Western nations ripped apart a legitimate country, creating new and arbitrary borders and a bloody war that created refugees of that country's original occupants.
To place that in familiar context, there are people in Texas that are still pissed-off about their annexation into the United States; and a lot of people still pissed-off about the American Civil War.
It's not hard to imagine that the passions that must be involved in the mid-East, then, where the West went and screwed with borders in the most callous manner... and where a new, self-identifying people waged civil war to stake out territory in the middle of ancient enemies.
Again, I can only say that it's an incredibly complex situation with no clear resolution in sight.
While the television remained my primary news feed, Slashdot was my primary web feed. It provided the community side of the equation: a finger on the pulse of the world and, particularly, America.
Thanks to the Slashdot crew for scrambling to provide the best possible service during a time when many other people were in emotional and occupational shutdown.
And thank-you to the people who form this community. On the whole, the discussions have been remarkably insightful and rational.
I'm hopeful that this web community is representative of the American population, and that we will see your political and military leaders taking sane action. This tragedy could all too easily throw us into devastating war with continuing long-term consequences.
I'll also take this opportunity to apologise for the several postings where I lost my head. While most of what I've written has attempted to educate a broadly ill-informed public as to why this attack took place, and to preach sanity in dealing with the attack, I have also lost my head in responding to some of the more dreadfully ignorant folk. For that, I am sorry: I should have been more patient and tolerant.
In closing, I'd like to assure our American friends that this has been a global tragedy. The outpouring of support, and demonstrations of grief and sorrow, have encircled the globe. Every nation mourns with you, and every nation feels a sense of shock and loss.
Are the American people angry enough to demand their government change the foreign policies that led to this...
Or are they only angry enough to demand war?
The first will require getting off your asses and becoming extremely politically active: writing letters, visiting your representatives face-to-face, rallying support for change. It's going to be a lot of work.
The latter will require bravely waving the boys goodbye again, and then turning on CNN to watch the action.
Er, the Jews fought (under ben Gurion, Begin, and Shamir) to oust the British. When they succeeded, they declared Palestine to be Israel.
Who initiated the Suez war? I believe it was Israel that declared, after being aggravated by Egypt for several years.
The Six Day war, as you mention.
In 1978, Israel launched war against Lebanon, which was going through a civil war. The PLO was staging its operations from south Lebanon at the time. It was a complex situation and, as always, there are no clean hands to be found. Argument can be made that Israel initiated war against Lebanon (as Lebanon, the country itself, wasn't warring against Israel).
The ugly fact is that the politics in the mid-East are so complex, and the factions have been at each other so long, and the Europeans that held power back in the 19th century mismanaged the countries so badly, that there is probably *no* "one truth" about any of its history.
"They demand a Palestinian homeland. They demand, they demand. But they offer no concessions, no cooperation."
Palestine was a proper country before the Brits (and UN) went and carved it up to fulfill a promise to Jews who fought in the World Wars. Read up on "Balfour Declaration" and read up on Hagana/David benGurion, Irgun Zvai Leumi/Menachem Begin, and Lehi/Yitzhak Shamir).
And Arafat has made concessions since 1974, when he stood up in the UN and called for a united Palestine with a democratic secular government "where Christian, Jew, and Muslim live in justice, equality
and fraternity."
Then in 1977 Menachem Begin got into power, and pushed for a "Greater Israel" including the West Bank and Gaza and perhaps Jordan with unlimited settlement of Jews in
Arab-populated areas under Israeli occupation. The latter is contrary to international law, I believe; and in any case, he wasn't willing to cooperate with Arafat's plans.
Since then, things have just gotten worse on both sides. It's a horrendous mess, and one entire generation has grown up (on either side) knowing only warfare, poverty, and hatred.
"...the territories Israel currently occupies which stand beyond its internationally recognized borders circa 1950 are, if you will, trophies of war. They are the result of no fewer than three failed genocidal assaults upon the Israeli people and homeland. They were claimed by Israel as a buffer zone against further attacks, following the reasoning that foreign powers would be less-inclined to attack through these regions if their own people lived in them."
Isn't it true that Israel is settling these (military)occupied areas? If they are, isn't that against international law re: disputed territories?
"...when was the last time another country came and offered help to the US when we had a natural disaster?"
This year. Last year. The year before. And the year before that.
Ignorant, arrogant, isolationist idiot that you are, you have no idea how often Canada has had to come down to the US to bail your asses out of wildfires, floods, ice storms, and earthquakes.
First to help my fucking ass. America was the *last* to help in WWII, *last* to help in the Yugoslavian conflict, and still hasn't done a damn thing to help Canadian peacekeeping troops in any number of global hotspots.
Plus you refuse to pay up your UN dues, and then figure you still have a voice in the UN.
Your attitude is exactly what earns America a hearty "fuck you" from so much of the world.
If you weren't posting during a time of great grief and a tragedy that strikes at every peaceful country in the world, I'd impolitely remediate your ignorance.
You do, of course, keep in mind that there are militant Palestinian factions only because of several key events:
* Britain (or, rather, the UN) carving up Palestine into two territories (one for a Jewish homeland, one for the original Palestinians).
* Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon go to war against the newly-proclaimed Israel, to prevent the break-up of Palestine.
* Some one million or so Palestinians end up in refugee camps, because Israel wins the fight.
The Palestinians have had no homeland for about fifty-five years. At least one generation has been raised to adulthood knowing only warfare, repression and hatred. A second generation is now being raised in the same refugee conditions.
And, yes, there are Israelis who have been raised up in much the same miserable conditions. They're militant and hateful, too.
Perhaps the only solution is to spirit them all out of the warzone, and allow one generation to grow up unharmed... then put them back in, as citizens who have known peace.
I'd *love* to know why this was moderated down: there isn't an untrue word in it. Did it get nailed by Israeli sympathizers who've fallen for the media snowjob, or by American "patriots" who refuse to acknowledge the role decades of bad foreign policies has played?
No matter how much it's marked down, the truth remains: *NO ONE* has clean hands in this mess, because *EVERY* nation has contributed to creating it.
We're only just beginning to reap what we have sown, so help us.
I'm reminded of a cartoon wherein an artisan is revealing a "New Approach" to cleaning the gunk out from under your fingernails. He yanks off the veil and reveals... a nail clipper (the one with the nail file).
If all you want to do is clean the damn gunk out from under your nails, there's your solution.
I find it dreadfully shameful that so many people own pocketknives, yet few of them can carve worth a damn.
Simply add glass and plastic fiber to the mix. Creates a far more durable, flexible, robust concrete.
You gotta keep in mind that the WTC wasn't a concrete building: it was a steel structure. Concrete wasn't at all the sole supporting structure; indeed, it wasn't a supporting structure at all.
Re:What we must do
on
More WTC News
·
· Score: 0, Flamebait
You bullshit con artist.
It was the West that expropriated the Arabian deserts in their greedy thirst for oil. That soil has *never* belonged to America in any way, shape or form.
And Isreal is not the holy-white lamb of peace: it's just as bloodthirsty, crude, and fucked-up as the countries that surround it. Read your history: Isreal's hands are dirty.
Not to mention how American political involvement has continually exacerbated the problems over there. CIA subterfugue, crippling economic policies, asinine support of terrorists and regimes, and bone-headed moves every other month.
Get off your fucking high horse: the USA is just as dirty as everyone else in this. The mid-East is fucked up because *EVERYONE* contributed to fucking it up.
The Jerusalem Post appears to be a nasty bit of tabloid work. I sure as hell hope you're not relying on it for truthful news.
Little wonder that, with media such as this, there's no end to the hatred and tension in the mid-East. These papers are exacerbating the situation... as are, apparently, the politicians.
What do you mean, "Even compared to Canada." Does Canada have a reputation of being completely slack-assed when it comes to airport security?
(In Norway, I entered the country without passing through customs. That struck me as odd... especially as it was the day before the Prince got hitched!)
Slashdot Mirror
Terrorist Group Profiles -- let's wipe 'em all out.
I don't know that it's so much whether you get to decide whether to keep pretending...
...the news media gets to decide whether you keep pretending.
And, in all likelihood, the government has a very large influence on what the media gets to report.
Between media deception and government deception, it's time for everyone to become extremely cautious about accepting the pablum that's pumped through that glass tube.
And, perhaps, it's time to demand something better from both of 'em.
Or whatever Batman-like thing ol' Dubya said. Nice sentiment, cheezy words. :-)
Anyway, I got to thinking: if (most of) the world governments are going to seek and destroy terrorist cells, those that lead terrorist cells, and those that fund them, are they going to do a comprehensive job of it?
I'm figuring that part of the reason ol' Tony Blair is mounting his war steed is that he wants to eliminate the IRA. One hopes he'll be equally vicious with the Orange Volunteers and other Protestant creeps.
The Spanish have the Basque freedom fighters. Chile has a guerilla group that's nothing but trouble, too. Japan had those freaks that Sarin-gassed the subway system, although I think they got rid of 'em. And the mainland Asian triads: they're a real fucking problem over here on the west coast.
This is a helluva opportunity. If it got out of control, it'd be downright scary: anyone with a dissenting opinion might end up labelled as a terrorist and shot.
I'm also fairly keen to see what is going to happen with regards those that fund terrorists. For instance, there could be a lot of imprisoned, if not executed, Irish Americans who keep sending money to the goddamn IRA and Orangemen. I won't even talk about those who donate to Israeli and Islamic radical/terrorist groups.
Not sure where the line gets drawn, though. Is the Mafia gonna be toasted? It's a borderline terrorist organization, ain't it? And the Drug Enforcement Agency simply must be considered a terrorist group, along with the CIA...
Interesting times. Very interesting times. I'm not sure how much more interesting I really want them to get, though...
Jerry Falwell is the American Taliban.
You should probably attempt to calmly ignore his crazy ranting, and concentrate on cluing in those who actually think he's a good guy. He's powerless without an audience.
Best Thread Ever is posted at Ars Technica.
For those of you wishing some sense of closure, perhaps the Ars Technica thread will assist. It contains dozens upon dozens of photographs of people around the world memorializing the tragedy.
It is touching. And in between the pictures, the words of support and gratefulness will move you.
If there is a single positive outcome to this terrible event, it is that over a billion people have realized the important truth: we are all one people, united in humanity because we are all human.
Together, we could create a utopia. Divided, we create terror, pain, and tragedy.
Let our next thoughts, next decisions, next actions lead us toward a better world.
If you'd recall, I posted a dozen international and alternative web news feeds, and soliticited links to others.
Further, you've made the unfortunate mistake of confusing "deserve" with "contributed to."
The Taliban, which has been harbouring bin Laden, came to power only through US influence; likewise the radicals in control of Pakistan and the rule of Saddam Hussein are attributable to US operations. Decades of US foreign policy have contributed to the development of an environment in which terrorist groups have identified America with Satan.
However, you'll undoubtedly wish to pretend that this problem developed in a vacuum. You do so at your peril.
Posted at no-score, and with no intention of continuing this discussion.
Isn't Bluetooth the loser in the wireless wars? I though 802.11(?) was the one that looks like it'll succeed.
Indeed, and agreed.
One might want to ask the question, "Why is Israel under such threat?"
The answer, of course, is that it's because a bunch of interfering Western nations ripped apart a legitimate country, creating new and arbitrary borders and a bloody war that created refugees of that country's original occupants.
To place that in familiar context, there are people in Texas that are still pissed-off about their annexation into the United States; and a lot of people still pissed-off about the American Civil War.
It's not hard to imagine that the passions that must be involved in the mid-East, then, where the West went and screwed with borders in the most callous manner... and where a new, self-identifying people waged civil war to stake out territory in the middle of ancient enemies.
Again, I can only say that it's an incredibly complex situation with no clear resolution in sight.
While the television remained my primary news feed, Slashdot was my primary web feed. It provided the community side of the equation: a finger on the pulse of the world and, particularly, America.
Thanks to the Slashdot crew for scrambling to provide the best possible service during a time when many other people were in emotional and occupational shutdown.
And thank-you to the people who form this community. On the whole, the discussions have been remarkably insightful and rational.
I'm hopeful that this web community is representative of the American population, and that we will see your political and military leaders taking sane action. This tragedy could all too easily throw us into devastating war with continuing long-term consequences.
I'll also take this opportunity to apologise for the several postings where I lost my head. While most of what I've written has attempted to educate a broadly ill-informed public as to why this attack took place, and to preach sanity in dealing with the attack, I have also lost my head in responding to some of the more dreadfully ignorant folk. For that, I am sorry: I should have been more patient and tolerant.
In closing, I'd like to assure our American friends that this has been a global tragedy. The outpouring of support, and demonstrations of grief and sorrow, have encircled the globe. Every nation mourns with you, and every nation feels a sense of shock and loss.
You are not alone.
Thx for the additional information.
What a complex, messed-up situation.
Buddy, I wasn't mocking America: I was mocking you, specifically.
K, thanks.
Yes, BUT the important question is this:
Are the American people angry enough to demand their government change the foreign policies that led to this...
Or are they only angry enough to demand war?
The first will require getting off your asses and becoming extremely politically active: writing letters, visiting your representatives face-to-face, rallying support for change. It's going to be a lot of work.
The latter will require bravely waving the boys goodbye again, and then turning on CNN to watch the action.
Alas, you wouldn't know truth if it leapt up and burrowed into your ass.
Do make the effort to become informed, RJames. Pulling the "victim" card will only earn you disgusted looks from the civilized world.
Er, the Jews fought (under ben Gurion, Begin, and Shamir) to oust the British. When they succeeded, they declared Palestine to be Israel.
Who initiated the Suez war? I believe it was Israel that declared, after being aggravated by Egypt for several years.
The Six Day war, as you mention.
In 1978, Israel launched war against Lebanon, which was going through a civil war. The PLO was staging its operations from south Lebanon at the time. It was a complex situation and, as always, there are no clean hands to be found. Argument can be made that Israel initiated war against Lebanon (as Lebanon, the country itself, wasn't warring against Israel).
The ugly fact is that the politics in the mid-East are so complex, and the factions have been at each other so long, and the Europeans that held power back in the 19th century mismanaged the countries so badly, that there is probably *no* "one truth" about any of its history.
If only the slate could be wiped clean.
This manner of rhetoric disgusts me.
"They demand a Palestinian homeland. They demand, they demand. But they offer no concessions, no cooperation."
Palestine was a proper country before the Brits (and UN) went and carved it up to fulfill a promise to Jews who fought in the World Wars. Read up on "Balfour Declaration" and read up on Hagana/David benGurion, Irgun Zvai Leumi/Menachem Begin, and Lehi/Yitzhak Shamir).
And Arafat has made concessions since 1974, when he stood up in the UN and called for a united Palestine with a democratic secular government "where Christian, Jew, and Muslim live in justice, equality
and fraternity."
Then in 1977 Menachem Begin got into power, and pushed for a "Greater Israel" including the West Bank and Gaza and perhaps Jordan with unlimited settlement of Jews in
Arab-populated areas under Israeli occupation. The latter is contrary to international law, I believe; and in any case, he wasn't willing to cooperate with Arafat's plans.
Since then, things have just gotten worse on both sides. It's a horrendous mess, and one entire generation has grown up (on either side) knowing only warfare, poverty, and hatred.
"...the territories Israel currently occupies which stand beyond its internationally recognized borders circa 1950 are, if you will, trophies of war. They are the result of no fewer than three failed genocidal assaults upon the Israeli people and homeland. They were claimed by Israel as a buffer zone against further attacks, following the reasoning that foreign powers would be less-inclined to attack through these regions if their own people lived in them."
Isn't it true that Israel is settling these (military)occupied areas? If they are, isn't that against international law re: disputed territories?
"...when was the last time another country came and offered help to the US when we had a natural disaster?"
This year. Last year. The year before. And the year before that.
Ignorant, arrogant, isolationist idiot that you are, you have no idea how often Canada has had to come down to the US to bail your asses out of wildfires, floods, ice storms, and earthquakes.
First to help my fucking ass. America was the *last* to help in WWII, *last* to help in the Yugoslavian conflict, and still hasn't done a damn thing to help Canadian peacekeeping troops in any number of global hotspots.
Plus you refuse to pay up your UN dues, and then figure you still have a voice in the UN.
Your attitude is exactly what earns America a hearty "fuck you" from so much of the world.
If you weren't posting during a time of great grief and a tragedy that strikes at every peaceful country in the world, I'd impolitely remediate your ignorance.
You do, of course, keep in mind that there are militant Palestinian factions only because of several key events:
* Britain (or, rather, the UN) carving up Palestine into two territories (one for a Jewish homeland, one for the original Palestinians).
* Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon go to war against the newly-proclaimed Israel, to prevent the break-up of Palestine.
* Some one million or so Palestinians end up in refugee camps, because Israel wins the fight.
The Palestinians have had no homeland for about fifty-five years. At least one generation has been raised to adulthood knowing only warfare, repression and hatred. A second generation is now being raised in the same refugee conditions.
And, yes, there are Israelis who have been raised up in much the same miserable conditions. They're militant and hateful, too.
Perhaps the only solution is to spirit them all out of the warzone, and allow one generation to grow up unharmed... then put them back in, as citizens who have known peace.
I'd *love* to know why this was moderated down: there isn't an untrue word in it. Did it get nailed by Israeli sympathizers who've fallen for the media snowjob, or by American "patriots" who refuse to acknowledge the role decades of bad foreign policies has played?
No matter how much it's marked down, the truth remains: *NO ONE* has clean hands in this mess, because *EVERY* nation has contributed to creating it.
We're only just beginning to reap what we have sown, so help us.
I'm reminded of a cartoon wherein an artisan is revealing a "New Approach" to cleaning the gunk out from under your fingernails. He yanks off the veil and reveals... a nail clipper (the one with the nail file).
If all you want to do is clean the damn gunk out from under your nails, there's your solution.
I find it dreadfully shameful that so many people own pocketknives, yet few of them can carve worth a damn.
Nah.
Simply add glass and plastic fiber to the mix. Creates a far more durable, flexible, robust concrete.
You gotta keep in mind that the WTC wasn't a concrete building: it was a steel structure. Concrete wasn't at all the sole supporting structure; indeed, it wasn't a supporting structure at all.
You bullshit con artist.
It was the West that expropriated the Arabian deserts in their greedy thirst for oil. That soil has *never* belonged to America in any way, shape or form.
And Isreal is not the holy-white lamb of peace: it's just as bloodthirsty, crude, and fucked-up as the countries that surround it. Read your history: Isreal's hands are dirty.
Not to mention how American political involvement has continually exacerbated the problems over there. CIA subterfugue, crippling economic policies, asinine support of terrorists and regimes, and bone-headed moves every other month.
Get off your fucking high horse: the USA is just as dirty as everyone else in this. The mid-East is fucked up because *EVERYONE* contributed to fucking it up.
The Jerusalem Post appears to be a nasty bit of tabloid work. I sure as hell hope you're not relying on it for truthful news.
Little wonder that, with media such as this, there's no end to the hatred and tension in the mid-East. These papers are exacerbating the situation... as are, apparently, the politicians.
Truly fucking disgusting.
What do you mean, "Even compared to Canada." Does Canada have a reputation of being completely slack-assed when it comes to airport security?
(In Norway, I entered the country without passing through customs. That struck me as odd... especially as it was the day before the Prince got hitched!)