I have been very impressed. All too often the commentary (particularly after a Win/Linux or Katz article) is sheer gutter-swill.
But I've been browsing at -1 through the terrorist-action articles, and have been thoroughly impressed with the sanity, maturity, and thoughtfulness of the majority of posters.
There has been a fantastic signal-to-noise ratio, with very few bigots and loons shrieking out their clueless rants.
A lot of the information has been factual, has provided links, and has provided good insight. Yay for Slashdot!
But let's refine it a little: rather than do *nothing*, do nothing violent. Don't retaliate with military might.
Rather, do a *lot* politically. Make sweeping changes to foreign political policies. Do the things that need doing -- and I have *no* idea what needs to be done -- to begin creating friendship with those nations that have traditionally treated America coolly or with contempt.
Bring the terrorists to justice, but do it subtlely. Develop cooperation with the governments that support them, and figure out how to get to them without drawing a lot of media attention to it.
The more friendships the US develops, the more supportive it is of other governments -- including those that aren't at all American-like in nature -- the more it can help civilians all over the world achieve a greater standard of living, the more it will find support and the less it will be threatened.
In other words, change the game. Tit-for-tat just creates martyrs. Play by different, bigger rules, and the terrorists become obsolete. Maybe.
Dunno if it would work. But you have raised an interesting idea.
Speaking of television, my two newsfeeds (CBC and CTV, the national Canadian broadcast stations) are both dedicating this day, too, to coverage of the terrorist attack.
Is this happening in other countries, too? By which I mean, are your main television stations remaining focused on the event, or have they already reverted back to daytime soaps programming?
Guiliani has impressed hell out of me. He was in the thick of things, dealing with issues as they were thrown at him and simulataneously dealing with the media.
He must be a wickedly smart man, and his hands-on management style is indeed impressive.
LA Times Report the plane had diverted from its westbound route and had swung back toward Washington, D.C.... The crash site was about 80 miles northwest of Camp David and 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.
So it looks like it was heading either for Washington or Camp David.
Problem with Washington as a destination is that it flew far, far past it. OTOH, perhaps they fucked up: if it had turned earlier, I'll just bet it would have hit the White House shortly after the other three attacks.
I'd be surprised if anyone is advocating rolling over and playing dead.
Rather, I suspect you're misinterpreting what is being said: be coldly rational and thorough. Identify the guilty and destroy them and, if at all possible, them alone.
This advice is given based on past hysteria:
- The panic after Pearl Harbour resulted in tens of thousands of innocent American and Canadian citizens being imprisoned in internment camps, and the loss of all their possessions. These weren't Japs that were mistreated: they were second- and third-generation Americans.
- The panic after the JFK assasination resulted in immediate finger-pointing against Cuba and Russia. It was a truly nasty time to have Cuban skin in the US.
- The panic after the Oklahoma bombing resulted in many American citizens being mistreated: there was plenty of bullying, name-calling, and threats. All because these citizens had Arab looks and skin.
The public's reaction to the WTC terrorist attack can -- and probably will -- turn just as ugly as before: there are people clamouring to kick out American citizens based on their religion ("Muslims out") and people calling for the complete destruction of the mid-East, even though the mid-East isn't a homogenous society and even though most of the citizens over there aren't guilty.
It's time for Sheriff Uncle Sam to get some fucking serious about destroying the terrorist groups and those who support them
*AND*
to get serious about figuring out why the USA is so thoroughly hated and then figuring out how to gain, if not friendly terms, neutral terms with other nations/cultures/peoples.
*Both* steps are needed to fix the problems. Neither one alone will work.
It's because the American government has acted atrociously, time and time again.
And because the American government has supported other governments that have acted atrociously, time and time again.
And, just as importantly, because their leaders -- religious and/or political -- have been brainwashing their people.
They celebrate, because they don't value human lives as we do. In some countries, terrorist acts are so common that you live day to day, knowing that you could easily become a victim in an attack.
[And the brainwashers love it: these scared people are looking to blame someone for the violence and fear. It's easy to make the USA the monster.]
There's blame to go all around.
It's a damn sorry situation. The biggest question that needs to be asked is: how can it be resolved?
I think there's a very good chance that they're going to discover that the terrorist organization -- almost certainly Osama bin Laden -- had the cooperation of a national government.
The consequence of which is almost certainly all-out, no-holds-barred war against that country. And rightly so. There will be civilian casualties, but that's an acceptable consequence of modern war.
One hopes that a longer-term consequence of any action that's taken will be the creation of a spirit of cooperation toward resolving the problems in the mid-East.
[yes, I'm assuming that a mid-East faction is to blame. I don't think there's anyone else in the world that hates the USA enough to have done it, nor any others organized enough to pull it off.]
I *swear* my newsfeed (CBC TV, Canada) reported a crash in Colorado. There was never a retraction, nor was there any mention of it again.
NORAD is out in Colorado, although it wouldn't be even scratched by this sort of attack.
Can anyone authoritatively confirm or deny? There were enough rumours flying around in the AM that it's probably just another... but CBC was pretty good about dispelling the rumours once they were known to be false.
I'd also like to thank Slashdot: considering the load it's handled today, the software has performed admirably.
And thank you to Slashdot posters, who have, on the whole, remained level-headed! I had expected the commentaries to quickly run to jingoistic get-em-back nationalism, but there's been very little of that.
Revision: if it turns out that a government sponsored the attack, then this is a declaration of war and there will be civilian casualties. And while that's a shame, it's an acceptable consequence of warfare.
My newsfeed ("The National," CBC TV) ran a bit on the television programming in Palestine.
I'm now *very* disgusted, and am beginning to believe that they've incubated an nation of hate. I was not previously aware that the Palestine government actively supported the "death to America" brainwashing.
I'm hoping that my newsfeed is being stupid, jumping abroad the hate-Palestine train. But I somehow doubt it: CBC is usually an extremely rational, truthful newsource.
I find myself becoming more open to putting them under glass... !
Early in the morning there was a *single* report of a plane down in Colorado. Since then, I've heard nothing: no corrections, no confirmations, no denial.
NORAD is in Colorado, isn't it? Sound slike an obvious target, even if a plane wouldn't do any damage (it's designed to survive nukes).
The people that are cheering in the midEast are cheering the deaths of civilians who are not personally responsible for the atrocities that the terrorists accuse the USA of perpetrating. Their hatred doesn't recognize individuals as innocents.
If you cheer the presupposed death of midEast civilians, you're no better than they are: you cheer the death of people who are not personally responsible for the terrorist attack.
Sorry to confuse you. The Timothy McVeigh comment was irrelevent to the remainder of the post.
The media reported *ONCE* a possible crash in Colorado. Since then it hasn't been mentioned: no corrections to the original report, and no clarification.
Colorado is home to NORAD, isn't it? The installation wouldn't be harmed -- it's built to withstand nukes -- but it'd be a natural target for scaring the US.
Rather like we all celebrated the execution of Timothy McVeigh?
Welcome to the international brotherhood of terrorism:
...just as they are happy to see the death of any Joe Average American, even though Joe isn't personally responsible for the atrocities they claim of the USA,
...you're happy to see the death of Joe Average midEaster, even though Joe isn't personally responsible for the terrorist attack.
Let's not descend to their level.
There should be justice. Let's make sure it's just.
Fuck you. In no way am I supporting terrorism. What they did is inexcusably atrocious.
What I have advocated is a calm and rational approach in creating a response, and cautioned against painting entire nations/cultures with a broad brush.
I daresay most Americans celebrated the execution of Timothy McVeigh, and rightly so: he was a monster. I do not find it difficult to understand that people who have been raised in an environment of hatred would just as easily celebrate attacks against their version of the monster.
Why do these people view the USA as a monster? I do not know, but the article I posted provides some sort of rationale -- and whether it's true or not, it's certainly the sort of information that they're being fed through propaganda.
I will not condemn en masse an ignorant population. Joe Public walking the streets of Nablus does not deserve to be nuked to glass.
Don't do what the terrorists do: do not desire the destruction of an entire nation as retaliation for the actions of a few. Just as the average American is not personally responsible for the atrocities the terrorists claim against the USA, the average [name your countryfellow] is not to blame for the atrocities perpetrated by the terrorists.
Without doubt, there are wingnuts within the USA currently whooping it up that the country was attacked.
Which, I think, would just prove that there are deeply fucked-up people the world over.
Rather than judge entire nations/cultures based on a couple photographs of some fucked-up people, it'd be a bit more wise to seek out better information on the reaction of the population as a whole.
IF most of [name your most-hated mid-East country here] reacts with joy, then I think one can justifiably react angrily toward them.
Otherwise, you'd just be punishing a majority of innocents for the actions of a fucked-up minority.
The National newscast says that the US military just brought in an aircraft to Vancouver (BC) airport; no news on why.
Canada dot com -- looks like WIC (a media conglomerate) has created a site that encompasses news from BCTV, Vancouver Sun, etc. I can't get the links to work, but some look interesting.
Slashdot Mirror
I have been very impressed. All too often the commentary (particularly after a Win/Linux or Katz article) is sheer gutter-swill.
:-(
But I've been browsing at -1 through the terrorist-action articles, and have been thoroughly impressed with the sanity, maturity, and thoughtfulness of the majority of posters.
There has been a fantastic signal-to-noise ratio, with very few bigots and loons shrieking out their clueless rants.
A lot of the information has been factual, has provided links, and has provided good insight. Yay for Slashdot!
Now if only the rest of the net were as sane.
That is an intriguing idea.
But let's refine it a little: rather than do *nothing*, do nothing violent. Don't retaliate with military might.
Rather, do a *lot* politically. Make sweeping changes to foreign political policies. Do the things that need doing -- and I have *no* idea what needs to be done -- to begin creating friendship with those nations that have traditionally treated America coolly or with contempt.
Bring the terrorists to justice, but do it subtlely. Develop cooperation with the governments that support them, and figure out how to get to them without drawing a lot of media attention to it.
The more friendships the US develops, the more supportive it is of other governments -- including those that aren't at all American-like in nature -- the more it can help civilians all over the world achieve a greater standard of living, the more it will find support and the less it will be threatened.
In other words, change the game. Tit-for-tat just creates martyrs. Play by different, bigger rules, and the terrorists become obsolete. Maybe.
Dunno if it would work. But you have raised an interesting idea.
Speaking of television, my two newsfeeds (CBC and CTV, the national Canadian broadcast stations) are both dedicating this day, too, to coverage of the terrorist attack.
Is this happening in other countries, too? By which I mean, are your main television stations remaining focused on the event, or have they already reverted back to daytime soaps programming?
Guiliani has impressed hell out of me. He was in the thick of things, dealing with issues as they were thrown at him and simulataneously dealing with the media.
He must be a wickedly smart man, and his hands-on management style is indeed impressive.
LA Times Report the plane had diverted from its westbound route and had swung back toward Washington, D.C. ... The crash site was about 80 miles northwest of Camp David and 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.
So it looks like it was heading either for Washington or Camp David.
Problem with Washington as a destination is that it flew far, far past it. OTOH, perhaps they fucked up: if it had turned earlier, I'll just bet it would have hit the White House shortly after the other three attacks.
I'd be surprised if anyone is advocating rolling over and playing dead.
Rather, I suspect you're misinterpreting what is being said: be coldly rational and thorough. Identify the guilty and destroy them and, if at all possible, them alone.
This advice is given based on past hysteria:
- The panic after Pearl Harbour resulted in tens of thousands of innocent American and Canadian citizens being imprisoned in internment camps, and the loss of all their possessions. These weren't Japs that were mistreated: they were second- and third-generation Americans.
- The panic after the JFK assasination resulted in immediate finger-pointing against Cuba and Russia. It was a truly nasty time to have Cuban skin in the US.
- The panic after the Oklahoma bombing resulted in many American citizens being mistreated: there was plenty of bullying, name-calling, and threats. All because these citizens had Arab looks and skin.
The public's reaction to the WTC terrorist attack can -- and probably will -- turn just as ugly as before: there are people clamouring to kick out American citizens based on their religion ("Muslims out") and people calling for the complete destruction of the mid-East, even though the mid-East isn't a homogenous society and even though most of the citizens over there aren't guilty.
It's time for Sheriff Uncle Sam to get some fucking serious about destroying the terrorist groups and those who support them
*AND*
to get serious about figuring out why the USA is so thoroughly hated and then figuring out how to gain, if not friendly terms, neutral terms with other nations/cultures/peoples.
*Both* steps are needed to fix the problems. Neither one alone will work.
Thanks, Allism.
Encryption in pictures.
I'll just bet this is going to result in a cry to ban encryption entirely.
It's because the American government has acted atrociously, time and time again.
And because the American government has supported other governments that have acted atrociously, time and time again.
And, just as importantly, because their leaders -- religious and/or political -- have been brainwashing their people.
They celebrate, because they don't value human lives as we do. In some countries, terrorist acts are so common that you live day to day, knowing that you could easily become a victim in an attack.
[And the brainwashers love it: these scared people are looking to blame someone for the violence and fear. It's easy to make the USA the monster.]
There's blame to go all around.
It's a damn sorry situation. The biggest question that needs to be asked is: how can it be resolved?
[My fear: it can't.]
I think there's a very good chance that they're going to discover that the terrorist organization -- almost certainly Osama bin Laden -- had the cooperation of a national government.
The consequence of which is almost certainly all-out, no-holds-barred war against that country. And rightly so. There will be civilian casualties, but that's an acceptable consequence of modern war.
One hopes that a longer-term consequence of any action that's taken will be the creation of a spirit of cooperation toward resolving the problems in the mid-East.
[yes, I'm assuming that a mid-East faction is to blame. I don't think there's anyone else in the world that hates the USA enough to have done it, nor any others organized enough to pull it off.]
I *swear* my newsfeed (CBC TV, Canada) reported a crash in Colorado. There was never a retraction, nor was there any mention of it again.
NORAD is out in Colorado, although it wouldn't be even scratched by this sort of attack.
Can anyone authoritatively confirm or deny? There were enough rumours flying around in the AM that it's probably just another... but CBC was pretty good about dispelling the rumours once they were known to be false.
I'd also like to thank Slashdot: considering the load it's handled today, the software has performed admirably.
And thank you to Slashdot posters, who have, on the whole, remained level-headed! I had expected the commentaries to quickly run to jingoistic get-em-back nationalism, but there's been very little of that.
I hope the government is as sane.
Yah, I just stumbled on a BBC report.
Now I'm not sure who or what to believe.
Revision: if it turns out that a government sponsored the attack, then this is a declaration of war and there will be civilian casualties. And while that's a shame, it's an acceptable consequence of warfare.
Ah, yes, gotcha.
My newsfeed ("The National," CBC TV) ran a bit on the television programming in Palestine.
I'm now *very* disgusted, and am beginning to believe that they've incubated an nation of hate. I was not previously aware that the Palestine government actively supported the "death to America" brainwashing.
I'm hoping that my newsfeed is being stupid, jumping abroad the hate-Palestine train. But I somehow doubt it: CBC is usually an extremely rational, truthful newsource.
I find myself becoming more open to putting them under glass... !
=== Report the survivors! === this is a clearinghouse for reporting people you know made it out alive.
Please report everyone you know of who has survived the attacks.
U. Berkeley has apparently supported this with a few hundred servers. GO TO IT AND SPREAD THE WORD!
Early in the morning there was a *single* report of a plane down in Colorado. Since then, I've heard nothing: no corrections, no confirmations, no denial.
NORAD is in Colorado, isn't it? Sound slike an obvious target, even if a plane wouldn't do any damage (it's designed to survive nukes).
Anyone know if a plane did go down?
Nonono.
Let me repeat:
The people that are cheering in the midEast are cheering the deaths of civilians who are not personally responsible for the atrocities that the terrorists accuse the USA of perpetrating. Their hatred doesn't recognize individuals as innocents.
If you cheer the presupposed death of midEast civilians, you're no better than they are: you cheer the death of people who are not personally responsible for the terrorist attack.
Sorry to confuse you. The Timothy McVeigh comment was irrelevent to the remainder of the post.
The media reported *ONCE* a possible crash in Colorado. Since then it hasn't been mentioned: no corrections to the original report, and no clarification.
Colorado is home to NORAD, isn't it? The installation wouldn't be harmed -- it's built to withstand nukes -- but it'd be a natural target for scaring the US.
Anyone heard anything more about this?
Canada does, too. Bombardier builds planes like they're going out of style. Kicks ass on the world market, too...
Rather like we all celebrated the execution of Timothy McVeigh?
...just as they are happy to see the death of any Joe Average American, even though Joe isn't personally responsible for the atrocities they claim of the USA,
...you're happy to see the death of Joe Average midEaster, even though Joe isn't personally responsible for the terrorist attack.
Welcome to the international brotherhood of terrorism:
Let's not descend to their level.
There should be justice. Let's make sure it's just.
Fuck you. In no way am I supporting terrorism. What they did is inexcusably atrocious.
What I have advocated is a calm and rational approach in creating a response, and cautioned against painting entire nations/cultures with a broad brush.
I daresay most Americans celebrated the execution of Timothy McVeigh, and rightly so: he was a monster. I do not find it difficult to understand that people who have been raised in an environment of hatred would just as easily celebrate attacks against their version of the monster.
Why do these people view the USA as a monster? I do not know, but the article I posted provides some sort of rationale -- and whether it's true or not, it's certainly the sort of information that they're being fed through propaganda.
I will not condemn en masse an ignorant population. Joe Public walking the streets of Nablus does not deserve to be nuked to glass.
Don't do what the terrorists do: do not desire the destruction of an entire nation as retaliation for the actions of a few. Just as the average American is not personally responsible for the atrocities the terrorists claim against the USA, the average [name your countryfellow] is not to blame for the atrocities perpetrated by the terrorists.
Without doubt, there are wingnuts within the USA currently whooping it up that the country was attacked.
Which, I think, would just prove that there are deeply fucked-up people the world over.
Rather than judge entire nations/cultures based on a couple photographs of some fucked-up people, it'd be a bit more wise to seek out better information on the reaction of the population as a whole.
IF most of [name your most-hated mid-East country here] reacts with joy, then I think one can justifiably react angrily toward them.
Otherwise, you'd just be punishing a majority of innocents for the actions of a fucked-up minority.
Troops deployed in response to Pentagon attack -- (Canada's) National Post. Please ignore the very, very tacky graphics and tabloid-like banner.
Canadian border open, airline travellers stranded -- ditto. Note that many aircraft were diverted to Canadian airports. If you know someone who was on a flight, they may be in Canada right now.
The National newscast says that the US military just brought in an aircraft to Vancouver (BC) airport; no news on why.
Canada dot com -- looks like WIC (a media conglomerate) has created a site that encompasses news from BCTV, Vancouver Sun, etc. I can't get the links to work, but some look interesting.
Christian Science Monitor -- don't be put off by the title: it's a *very* high-quality paper.
The Village Voice -- not sure how high-quality this will be, but it has an amazing photo, plus information on the DFLP.
Boston Globe -- again, good quality reporting. There's a Breaking News page as well. Indeed, their breaking news is great.
PLEASE POST LINKS TO FOREIGN MEDIA. I've been searching, but I simply don't know the names for any English foreign media, save the BBC.
Pshaw. NYC is about as opposite a "City of God" as exists!