When I was young we used all of those words, even though our video games didn't say them. I clearly remember using every one of those in the same sentence when my NES got that damn,b*stard,Sh*tty,.... blinking screen thing.
"Just recently, I started collecting all the star wars stuff that I couldn't have when i was a kid. Like the AT-AT, Millenium Falcon etc. And they do sit there and wont go in with the rest, because they are models in their own right. So you can have a bit of both."
I am in the same boat. We couldn't afford "fancy" legos when I was a kid, so I just recently started building some of the more advanced kits. Try the new Technic Crane set 8421. Or try the Back-Hoe set 8455. They are both truely awesome. Then give the completed model to your kids to rip apart and build other, less complex projects. Both sets have Pneumatics....which are awesome. The Back-Hoe has a LOT of pneumatics. The crane is HUGE.
I have 2 of the Cranes for sale.....if you are interested.
Win Dir seems nice, but I seem to be using HiJackThis more than any others. Windows really should have shipped with it.:)
On an offtopic note, does anyone have any decent tools for removing the latest wave of homepage hijackers? Not CWS varients. I have about 3-4 calls for next week, and none of them are a CWS varient, and I don't feel like manually removing anything.
I was just thinking the same thing, so I guess we should conclude that we should never trust Canadians ages 18-29. I never trusted them anyway.:)
Actually, I first read the post as PSP Users More Likely to Cheat, Shoplift. I was really starting to wonder. Actually, I read it 4x, and didn't catch the error until reading a few comments. Darn those Canadian PSP users, the hosers!
Thus the point is shown. Nobody I know is in a profession where they measure things in moles accurate out to 10 significant digits. Heck most carpenters I know measure out to 1/16 inch at the most precise. A friend cuts glass for high end doors and they are only accurage to the 64th of an inch. I promise that the glass is better off being calculated on a calculator and accurate only to 1/100millionth of an inch rather than being calculated in his head. Also, teaching him trig would require him to free up some space, possibly forgetting where he works, and whether underwear go inside the pants, or vice versa.
Good point, but the people in those professions can save time and $ by simply buying a device to do any of those calculations for them. The only person who then needs to "know the math" is the one who builds the device.
Actually, in the grandpartents electric bill example, those who study electricity use trig.
THE KEY here is that high school forces you to study several things, whether you like it or not. This is how you find out what you enjoy, and what skills you enjoy using. If trig wasn't required, not enough students would want to take it, thus it wouldn't even be offered. When a school offers a course, the interest is either there, or it is forced.
You have defined an area of what I call decision and excised it from the concept because you feel that it is not an act of will, but merely deducing an answer. In what way is this different from emotion in which you assess the input and deduce an answer (happiness, fear, etc)? I can and have done things that make me feel bad - putting the wrong answer in essence. I've done this because logic has shown me that it is ultimately to my benefit despite my emotions' limited view on the situation. This illustrates that both the logical mind and the emotional mind can conflict. Surely you do not deny these conflicts? And if you do not, then what else can such a conflict be over, if not the choice of what action to take? And if there is conflict over this, then logically, not all decisions derive from emotion.
Obvioulsy I do not disagree with the conflict between emotion and logic. But, this paragraph clearly shows that you overshot the point I am making entirely. We are not discussing whether logical decisions are made, or whether you often have to fight emotion in favor of logic. We are discussing the fact that all decisions are based upon emotion, and justified with logic. You have yet to give me a single example of a decision which goes against this, with the exception of a calculation. A calculation and a decision are vastly different. In decision, we must choose. In calculation we must try to understand or interpret, based upon our previously stored data. There is no decision in calculation, thus you have not given a single example which brings any light to your logic.
Why do you feel emotions and what is your goal in feeling them? That's not facetious linguistics, I assure you. If we apply the principles to your argument for emotions that you have applied to my argument for logical decisions then you quickly find that no decisions are based on emotion - really they are based on breathing, or on digestion, or blood-circulation, or oxidisation, or the filling of electron shells. And ultimately, we arrive at the conclusion that the only reason for anything is because is (not a typo). Do you understand my point - you have not reduced your argument to the lowest point, the equation is not yet solved. When you expand your argument, we find that it is logically and philosophically void - the equivalent of 1 = 1.
It sounds to me like you are admitting defeat. Simplifying any equation down to 1=1 means you have found the answer, or at least found a correct input to the equation. Though I do see your point. You have no counter to my questions about chess, so you then claim it is untrue because it is true? You are taking this too personal. There is no insult in being an emotinally drived creature. There is nothing wrong with it.
Try considering what life would be like if we were not emotinionally driven? If you based every decision on logic, would we ever have children? It surely doesn't make financial sence to have children. I am still waiting for you to name a single example of a decision you have made, which was not determined because of the emotional reasons behind it, then later justified with logic.
I understand what you are saying and have addressed everything in it in previous posts. Anything further from me on this would be merely repetition
You have not addressed 1 key point, come up with an example. You named figuring out a mathematical equation, which is not good enough. By definition, it isn't a decision.
I promise you that everything is there and that it does not come down to a disagreement on the definition of calculation.
I agree. It comes down to you using the word calculation in place of decision.
Name 1 decision you have made in your life which disproves my point.
I also encourage you to do some reading on how the mind works, and what the drawbacks to not having a pre-emptive emotional responce which determines all decisions.
Oh yeah,and name 1 decision you have made that disproves my point (and every study I have read through in the last 6 years). The reason you choose what you choose will be for an emotional reason, you will then justify it with logic. I don't expect to get a response.
Have you had problems with the last few posts? I don't know if it is slashdot, or some other problem. I have been submitting posts, and getting page cannot be displayed messages. Sometimes the posts appear, sometimes not. Then if I try to repost, it gives me the warning about posting too soon after a previous post.
Anyway, it seems we cannot agree simply because of different definitions of calculation. It is my belief the calculation is something you do, based on stored data, resulting in an answer, not a decision. I do not decide that 1+1=2. I decide whether or not to figure it out. I decide whether to answer correctly. But, I didn't decide the answer was 2. I calculated it. A difference in definition only. When I think about math, I deduce the answer, or determine it. I don't decide it.
To relook at decisions vs calculations, I don't consider looking at a tree, and recollecting it as a tree as a decision (even if my first instinct was to call it a duck). In your example, you recollect some properties of a sphere and call this a decision. I just view it differently. Terminology differences I suppose.
" you are trying to fit it into your pre-formed belief" Is this not what we are both doing? That is science. We compare others beliefs to our own, to see which we like the most. If we like the other more, we switch (though on slashdot we never admit defeat, hehe).
"I have frequently been in a state of mind where emotional factors in my actions are minimal, yet the concious factors are strong. Examples would include studying, playing chess, or playing a sport at school." Excellent point. This is why most people insist that they make logical decisions. They do! The decisions are logical. I have said this from the beginning. But, the REASON you take the path that you do, is for an emotional reason. Do you enjoy studying, or maybe the result of studying? Why do you play chess, and what is your goal in playing? Aren't all of your moves then done in order for you to achieve this end goal? When playing a sport at school, don't you have a reason for playing? Don't you make decisions during the game, with the end result being the emotion at which you decided to play to begin with? Isn't emotion the entire deciding force behind all of these decisions? Your decision is decided because of emotion, and you justify it with logic. When you read your own post, or reflect upon your life, you should notice that your decisions were based upon emotion, and rationalized by logic. If you cannot see this, then you are denying the true reasons that you have done what you have.
I choose to "argue" with the points that I disagree with, or that are the core foundation of the other side. Isn't that "logical"?
Again, I will admit there are a rare few people who can make decisions entirely on logic. Either they have been able to rewire their minds, or have a mental condition. Or both.
By the way, this message is not wanting to post. I would like to say it has been truely enjoyable debating with you. Hopefully one of these submits will stick. 1500 comments might be an issue. Though all web pages seem to be loading a bit slow of late.
Thanks for the compliment, and the same in return.
I figured the circular reasoning was coming. I was trying careful to word things so that it wouldn't show it's ugly head, but it couldn't be helped because of the nature of the discussion. The problem again lies in confusing calculation with decisions.
You are trying to decide which box to check. You calculate the correct answer. You know which box is the correct answer. This is logic. This is not a decision. The decision then comes as to which box to check. You decide to pick the correct box, in order to make it correct. This is an emotional deicion, like all others.
We need to be careful not to confuse calculation and decision.
"In the exam I can tick the box that says r^2 or I can tick the box that says r^3. I tick one. How is that not a decision. " Exactly. It is a decision. You choose the one you choose, purely for emotional reasons. You wanted it to be correct (ask yourself why you picked the correct answer). You did have some calculation to do, just like nearly everything, but the core decision was based on emotion. The reason you picked what you picked was for an emotional reason.
I was in this same debate once, on your side. I even left thinking I had proved my point. After a few days, I realized I was wrong. I am a very logical/anal person, and yet I realize I have yet to make a logical decision. Using examples on taking a test starts to blur decision with calculation. Try going through some other examples.
My wife and I recently put some extra money down on the mortguage of our home. I immediatly then said......wahoo, my first logical decision. But, of course, it wasn't. The reason I put the money down was to save interest. Logical. But, the reason I want to save interest is for security. Call it a fear of debt, or a desire for owning what I live in. It is all about security for me. Security is the emotional reason I make 90% of my decisions. The other 10% are made for health, or others security.
I don't remember them all, but the core reasons we humans do everything are security, health, god, love, and a 5th one that I can't remember. Most people lean towards 1 or 2 of them. Can you come up with a decision you have made lately, other than simply a question on a test? It would be much more clear. It is difficult when we start viewing calculation as decision.
In Summary: A decision is the deliberate choice of one course of action over [another|others]. Thus your decision was in picking what you thougth was correct, or what you thought was wrong. Your stored knowledge already knew which one was correct, so that was not a decision.
Wouldn't the asteroid also compact quite a bit, being that it is now under the pressure of our atmosphere? Wouldn't that release a lot of heat, similar to compression of any material? Just a thought/question for one of your physicists.
Global warming doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence that proves it doesn't.
1. It was colder than average at my house for 2 days last week.
2. The planet is supposed to get warmer and colder, it is natural. Just look at the tropical fossils and dinosaur bones in Canada. The temperature changes are natural.
3. Man has only been on this planet for 10,000 years, it says so in the bible. This means the scientific data uncovered about earths climate is wrong. It was probably planted by the devil.
4. It has been cloudy for 2 weeks, how can it be warming with no sun?
5. Doesn't ice expand when it freezes, so melting would lower the sea level right?
6. I have a paintball gun, powered by C02. That stuff is cold! How could it warm the planet?
7. We can't be sure the planet is getting warmer simply because the measurements say it is. Don't cloud the issue with facts.
8. If there is soo much C02 around, then why are my garden plants dead? The extra C02 should make them grow fast. I only got 4 cuekes this year.
9. How can the planet be getting so much warmer when more and more of the world now has air conditioning?
10. If the planet was getting that much warmer, we would see a consistant rise in the stock price of anti-perspirant companies. Us overweight americans are using less deodorant than ever!
Impulse control isn't the issue here. It is a 2nd example, explaining why it is critical for our minds to be wired this way. The cortexs are too slow to be trusted with our lives in such manners. And even though this will open up another area of discomfort for you, the emotional switches can actually decide to block all logic for a brief period of time. Have you ever seen anyone who was afraid of spiders still be illogical even after the spider was dead? It surely isn't logical, because the logic is being ignored.
To put it simply, I don't think you understand what you are saying. "However, the conclusion that all decisions are purely emotional" is exactly NOT what I said. All decisions are BASED on emotion, and JUSTIFIED with logic. They are not purely emotional. Logic plays a key role. Try watching a commercial sometime. Do you notice that they give you all of the emotional reasons to buy their product, then they feed you logical rational to make the purchase?
I challenge you. If you are correct, name a decision you have made lately. Any one. Until you try to come up with one from your own life, you won't see it. Maybe you can disprove me, and I welcome it. I have doubted this concept before, but it has always came through.
I will concede that some people can rewire, but for the purposes of this debate I would assume we were referring to normal people. Not those with mental disabilities, or extra abilities.
There is a lot of bad science, which is why we must have debates like this and in other forums. I have read many different theories on how the mind works, and while some is whacked, some is quite decent.
Have you seriously improved your eyesight? What type of eye problems did you have? I am just asking because I have severe eye problems (retinas fell off a few times when I was young).
Natural selection is still happening, depending on how you define natural. I just had this debate with a friend, though I was saying it wasn't happening. We concluded that we both define natural quite differently. He agreed to call it un-natural selection, while I will still call it de-evolution.
Purely awesome point. I will admit I am no expert on how the mind works. My previous boss was, and his teachings have influenced me quite a bit. This along with a few classes I took this summer on the workings of the brain. Being a very logical person, and loving to debate this issue with my boss, I came up with something quite similar to your mathematics example. Actually mine was with estimating the remaining balance in my checkbook.
The reason that emotion seems to take a back seat is because your example starts to mix calculations with decisions. Calculations are things done to rationalize a decision. Decisions are made based upon emotion,and backed up with the rationalization.
Changing your answer was a decision, clearly made to make the answer correct (clearly emotionally motivated). Changing it to r^3 was because of a calculation you made. Yes, you did decide on r^3 based upon logic, but the most core reason you made the change was because of emotion. Emotion is the reason for every decision.
You did "decide" on 3 over 2 because of a calculation/logic, but again, we are now confusing calculations with decision making.
When I add 1 + 1 in my head, and come up with 2, that isn't really a decision. It is a calculation. Claiming it is 2 instead of 3 is a decision, made so that I don't make a mistake.
Correct, there are humans that do not based their decisions on emotion, and they are ones whom are taking heavy medication or living inside of padded walls.
Can you name 1 decision you have made which was not based on emotion, and justified with logic?
You are correct. There are people whom do not base their decisions entirely on emotion, and that is where many mental disorders arrive from. As for "western civ" or anything else, it is mute. I am only referring to how the mind is hard wired. This hard wiring is irrelevant to any reality or any means of explaining how things work. We are talking hard wiring here. Physical limitations, not mental. It is just as physical as how many legs you are born with. That isn't to say that occasionally someone breaks that mold, but it is rare. The population at large has no clue how to control their body, correct, because they can't even control their own mind. Until one accepts their hard wiring, and learns to use it to it's potential, they will still be claiming they are logical, and unable to continue past this mental block. No matter what their belief and training, we are a slave to our emotions. Natural selection makes this an inevitable reality.
Fear of hunger really isn't the issue here, as bob was probably able to afford other food. The question was, why did he strive to save money. If you want to really get into the details of how the mind works, there are only between 7-9 reasons we do everything that we do. I do not have them all memorized, and some are fairly rare. There are 5 of them which cover most of our decision making. It is how we are wired, we cannot help it.
Brain terminology seems to differ a lot, but I believe the technical terminology would go something like this....
Sensory input comes into the brain. It goes through the hypothalaus, and is then sent simultaneously down 2 paths. A short path to the amygdala? and a long path to a cortex for processing. Before it even arrives at the cortex, that amygdala has considered the emotional responce required to this input, and can then either react before you think about it (jumping when someone taps you on the shoulder, obviously not logical) or define the emotional the meaning and reaction to it, and allow the cortext to process the data. The cortex is in our conscience, the amygdala is not. This is why you do not believe you had any emotional attachment to your decision. My terminology is probably not perfect, but this lets you possibly research this more, and learn a bit about it.
The fact that you "do things" isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about conscious decisions. Unconscious decisions are another matter. Some of which are not even made by the brain, but by the spinal cord (that is a different matter all together).
Interesting argument, but also specious. You have used your assumption to also prove your point. The above was an example, similar to what you would find in any readings on how the human mind makes decisions.
It was called an example, they can be found all over.
If bob had only $2, then making the $2.99 purchase was not possible, so there was no decision to make on that reguard. Now, he could then decide whether to spend the $2 or to not buy cereal at all. This is also an emotional decision, rationalized by logic.
Do some reading on how the mind works. The sensory input, the reptilian fight or flight mind, and your logical cortexes. It is quite facinating. As much as we hate to admit it, we cannot make a decision based upon logic. It will alwasy be based upon emotion, backed up by logic.
"Sure you can probably track backwards far enough to tie an emotion into any decision". Yes, which is the reasoning for making the decision. The logical reasoning is just our rationalization on why what we choose to do "makes sence". Try it. Come up with a decision you have made. Then consider the true reason you made that decision.
Slashdot Mirror
Probably a little from column A, a little from column B.
And then God created the earth and the heavens...
That sounds pretty violent.
"F-Word, C-word, A*s, A*shole, Balls, B*stard, B*tch, Christ, C*ck, Crap, C*m, Damn, D*ck, God Damn, Hell, Jesus, N*gger, Piss, Pr*ck, P*ssy, Screw, Sh*t, Tw*t"
When I was young we used all of those words, even though our video games didn't say them. I clearly remember using every one of those in the same sentence when my NES got that damn,b*stard,Sh*tty,.... blinking screen thing.
"Just recently, I started collecting all the star wars stuff that I couldn't have when i was a kid. Like the AT-AT, Millenium Falcon etc. And they do sit there and wont go in with the rest, because they are models in their own right. So you can have a bit of both."
I am in the same boat. We couldn't afford "fancy" legos when I was a kid, so I just recently started building some of the more advanced kits. Try the new Technic Crane set 8421. Or try the Back-Hoe set 8455. They are both truely awesome. Then give the completed model to your kids to rip apart and build other, less complex projects. Both sets have Pneumatics....which are awesome. The Back-Hoe has a LOT of pneumatics. The crane is HUGE.
I have 2 of the Cranes for sale.....if you are interested.
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=legonut79
Here is the Back-hoe, which I don't have in stock, but others do.
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?S=8455-1
NO, I didn't steal these from target.
MOD the parent up.
This is the guys online store that he uses to sell these legos.
Actually, just yesterday I was just considering buying some xmas presents from this store!
http://www.bricklink.com/feedback.asp?u=swanberg
Please explain what you mean by "dropped it down a sewer and it still works fine".
This is why I am nervous about buying lightly used electronics off ebay!
Win Dir seems nice, but I seem to be using HiJackThis more than any others. Windows really should have shipped with it. :)
On an offtopic note, does anyone have any decent tools for removing the latest wave of homepage hijackers? Not CWS varients. I have about 3-4 calls for next week, and none of them are a CWS varient, and I don't feel like manually removing anything.
I was just thinking the same thing, so I guess we should conclude that we should never trust Canadians ages 18-29. I never trusted them anyway. :)
Actually, I first read the post as PSP Users More Likely to Cheat, Shoplift. I was really starting to wonder. Actually, I read it 4x, and didn't catch the error until reading a few comments. Darn those Canadian PSP users, the hosers!
Thus the point is shown. Nobody I know is in a profession where they measure things in moles accurate out to 10 significant digits. Heck most carpenters I know measure out to 1/16 inch at the most precise. A friend cuts glass for high end doors and they are only accurage to the 64th of an inch. I promise that the glass is better off being calculated on a calculator and accurate only to 1/100millionth of an inch rather than being calculated in his head. Also, teaching him trig would require him to free up some space, possibly forgetting where he works, and whether underwear go inside the pants, or vice versa.
Now I know why my house isn't square!
Hmmm, how is my comment flamebait? When people moderate, we should be allowed to see who modded it as flamebait.
Good point, but the people in those professions can save time and $ by simply buying a device to do any of those calculations for them. The only person who then needs to "know the math" is the one who builds the device.
Actually, in the grandpartents electric bill example, those who study electricity use trig.
THE KEY here is that high school forces you to study several things, whether you like it or not. This is how you find out what you enjoy, and what skills you enjoy using. If trig wasn't required, not enough students would want to take it, thus it wouldn't even be offered. When a school offers a course, the interest is either there, or it is forced.
You have defined an area of what I call decision and excised it from the concept because you feel that it is not an act of will, but merely deducing an answer. In what way is this different from emotion in which you assess the input and deduce an answer (happiness, fear, etc)? I can and have done things that make me feel bad - putting the wrong answer in essence. I've done this because logic has shown me that it is ultimately to my benefit despite my emotions' limited view on the situation. This illustrates that both the logical mind and the emotional mind can conflict. Surely you do not deny these conflicts? And if you do not, then what else can such a conflict be over, if not the choice of what action to take? And if there is conflict over this, then logically, not all decisions derive from emotion.
Obvioulsy I do not disagree with the conflict between emotion and logic. But, this paragraph clearly shows that you overshot the point I am making entirely. We are not discussing whether logical decisions are made, or whether you often have to fight emotion in favor of logic. We are discussing the fact that all decisions are based upon emotion, and justified with logic. You have yet to give me a single example of a decision which goes against this, with the exception of a calculation. A calculation and a decision are vastly different. In decision, we must choose. In calculation we must try to understand or interpret, based upon our previously stored data. There is no decision in calculation, thus you have not given a single example which brings any light to your logic.
Why do you feel emotions and what is your goal in feeling them? That's not facetious linguistics, I assure you. If we apply the principles to your argument for emotions that you have applied to my argument for logical decisions then you quickly find that no decisions are based on emotion - really they are based on breathing, or on digestion, or blood-circulation, or oxidisation, or the filling of electron shells. And ultimately, we arrive at the conclusion that the only reason for anything is because is (not a typo). Do you understand my point - you have not reduced your argument to the lowest point, the equation is not yet solved. When you expand your argument, we find that it is logically and philosophically void - the equivalent of 1 = 1.
It sounds to me like you are admitting defeat. Simplifying any equation down to 1=1 means you have found the answer, or at least found a correct input to the equation. Though I do see your point. You have no counter to my questions about chess, so you then claim it is untrue because it is true? You are taking this too personal. There is no insult in being an emotinally drived creature. There is nothing wrong with it.
Try considering what life would be like if we were not emotinionally driven? If you based every decision on logic, would we ever have children? It surely doesn't make financial sence to have children. I am still waiting for you to name a single example of a decision you have made, which was not determined because of the emotional reasons behind it, then later justified with logic.
I understand what you are saying and have addressed everything in it in previous posts. Anything further from me on this would be merely repetition
You have not addressed 1 key point, come up with an example. You named figuring out a mathematical equation, which is not good enough. By definition, it isn't a decision.
I promise you that everything is there and that it does not come down to a disagreement on the definition of calculation.
I agree. It comes down to you using the word calculation in place of decision.
Name 1 decision you have made in your life which disproves my point.
I also encourage you to do some reading on how the mind works, and what the drawbacks to not having a pre-emptive emotional responce which determines all decisions.
Oh yeah,and name 1 decision you have made that disproves my point (and every study I have read through in the last 6 years). The reason you choose what you choose will be for an emotional reason, you will then justify it with logic. I don't expect to get a response.
"Start voting with your dollars"
I can't, i already speant all my dollars on music.
Actually, it is sad that I can't use my votes to help. What polticians can I vote for that would side against the RIAA?
"hand held electronics will be twice as powerful, 10000 times larger"
Would it still be considered hand held if it weighed 3 tons? Seriously, is there any specific rules on what items can be advertised as "hand held"?
Have you had problems with the last few posts? I don't know if it is slashdot, or some other problem. I have been submitting posts, and getting page cannot be displayed messages. Sometimes the posts appear, sometimes not. Then if I try to repost, it gives me the warning about posting too soon after a previous post.
Anyway, it seems we cannot agree simply because of different definitions of calculation. It is my belief the calculation is something you do, based on stored data, resulting in an answer, not a decision. I do not decide that 1+1=2. I decide whether or not to figure it out. I decide whether to answer correctly. But, I didn't decide the answer was 2. I calculated it. A difference in definition only. When I think about math, I deduce the answer, or determine it. I don't decide it.
To relook at decisions vs calculations, I don't consider looking at a tree, and recollecting it as a tree as a decision (even if my first instinct was to call it a duck). In your example, you recollect some properties of a sphere and call this a decision. I just view it differently. Terminology differences I suppose.
" you are trying to fit it into your pre-formed belief" Is this not what we are both doing? That is science. We compare others beliefs to our own, to see which we like the most. If we like the other more, we switch (though on slashdot we never admit defeat, hehe).
"I have frequently been in a state of mind where emotional factors in my actions are minimal, yet the concious factors are strong. Examples would include studying, playing chess, or playing a sport at school." Excellent point. This is why most people insist that they make logical decisions. They do! The decisions are logical. I have said this from the beginning. But, the REASON you take the path that you do, is for an emotional reason. Do you enjoy studying, or maybe the result of studying? Why do you play chess, and what is your goal in playing? Aren't all of your moves then done in order for you to achieve this end goal? When playing a sport at school, don't you have a reason for playing? Don't you make decisions during the game, with the end result being the emotion at which you decided to play to begin with? Isn't emotion the entire deciding force behind all of these decisions? Your decision is decided because of emotion, and you justify it with logic. When you read your own post, or reflect upon your life, you should notice that your decisions were based upon emotion, and rationalized by logic. If you cannot see this, then you are denying the true reasons that you have done what you have.
I choose to "argue" with the points that I disagree with, or that are the core foundation of the other side. Isn't that "logical"?
Again, I will admit there are a rare few people who can make decisions entirely on logic. Either they have been able to rewire their minds, or have a mental condition. Or both.
By the way, this message is not wanting to post. I would like to say it has been truely enjoyable debating with you. Hopefully one of these submits will stick. 1500 comments might be an issue. Though all web pages seem to be loading a bit slow of late.
Thanks for the compliment, and the same in return.
I figured the circular reasoning was coming. I was trying careful to word things so that it wouldn't show it's ugly head, but it couldn't be helped because of the nature of the discussion. The problem again lies in confusing calculation with decisions.
You are trying to decide which box to check. You calculate the correct answer. You know which box is the correct answer. This is logic. This is not a decision. The decision then comes as to which box to check. You decide to pick the correct box, in order to make it correct. This is an emotional deicion, like all others.
We need to be careful not to confuse calculation and decision.
"In the exam I can tick the box that says r^2 or I can tick the box that says r^3. I tick one. How is that not a decision. " Exactly. It is a decision. You choose the one you choose, purely for emotional reasons. You wanted it to be correct (ask yourself why you picked the correct answer). You did have some calculation to do, just like nearly everything, but the core decision was based on emotion. The reason you picked what you picked was for an emotional reason.
I was in this same debate once, on your side. I even left thinking I had proved my point. After a few days, I realized I was wrong. I am a very logical/anal person, and yet I realize I have yet to make a logical decision. Using examples on taking a test starts to blur decision with calculation. Try going through some other examples.
My wife and I recently put some extra money down on the mortguage of our home. I immediatly then said......wahoo, my first logical decision. But, of course, it wasn't. The reason I put the money down was to save interest. Logical. But, the reason I want to save interest is for security. Call it a fear of debt, or a desire for owning what I live in. It is all about security for me. Security is the emotional reason I make 90% of my decisions. The other 10% are made for health, or others security.
I don't remember them all, but the core reasons we humans do everything are security, health, god, love, and a 5th one that I can't remember. Most people lean towards 1 or 2 of them. Can you come up with a decision you have made lately, other than simply a question on a test? It would be much more clear. It is difficult when we start viewing calculation as decision.
In Summary: A decision is the deliberate choice of one course of action over [another|others]. Thus your decision was in picking what you thougth was correct, or what you thought was wrong. Your stored knowledge already knew which one was correct, so that was not a decision.
Wouldn't the asteroid also compact quite a bit, being that it is now under the pressure of our atmosphere? Wouldn't that release a lot of heat, similar to compression of any material? Just a thought/question for one of your physicists.
Global warming doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence that proves it doesn't.
1. It was colder than average at my house for 2 days last week.
2. The planet is supposed to get warmer and colder, it is natural. Just look at the tropical fossils and dinosaur bones in Canada. The temperature changes are natural.
3. Man has only been on this planet for 10,000 years, it says so in the bible. This means the scientific data uncovered about earths climate is wrong. It was probably planted by the devil.
4. It has been cloudy for 2 weeks, how can it be warming with no sun?
5. Doesn't ice expand when it freezes, so melting would lower the sea level right?
6. I have a paintball gun, powered by C02. That stuff is cold! How could it warm the planet?
7. We can't be sure the planet is getting warmer simply because the measurements say it is. Don't cloud the issue with facts.
8. If there is soo much C02 around, then why are my garden plants dead? The extra C02 should make them grow fast. I only got 4 cuekes this year.
9. How can the planet be getting so much warmer when more and more of the world now has air conditioning?
10. If the planet was getting that much warmer, we would see a consistant rise in the stock price of anti-perspirant companies. Us overweight americans are using less deodorant than ever!
Thank you for putting it simply, big words hurt.
Impulse control isn't the issue here. It is a 2nd example, explaining why it is critical for our minds to be wired this way. The cortexs are too slow to be trusted with our lives in such manners. And even though this will open up another area of discomfort for you, the emotional switches can actually decide to block all logic for a brief period of time. Have you ever seen anyone who was afraid of spiders still be illogical even after the spider was dead? It surely isn't logical, because the logic is being ignored.
To put it simply, I don't think you understand what you are saying. "However, the conclusion that all decisions are purely emotional" is exactly NOT what I said. All decisions are BASED on emotion, and JUSTIFIED with logic. They are not purely emotional. Logic plays a key role. Try watching a commercial sometime. Do you notice that they give you all of the emotional reasons to buy their product, then they feed you logical rational to make the purchase?
I challenge you. If you are correct, name a decision you have made lately. Any one. Until you try to come up with one from your own life, you won't see it. Maybe you can disprove me, and I welcome it. I have doubted this concept before, but it has always came through.
I will concede that some people can rewire, but for the purposes of this debate I would assume we were referring to normal people. Not those with mental disabilities, or extra abilities.
There is a lot of bad science, which is why we must have debates like this and in other forums. I have read many different theories on how the mind works, and while some is whacked, some is quite decent.
Have you seriously improved your eyesight? What type of eye problems did you have? I am just asking because I have severe eye problems (retinas fell off a few times when I was young). Natural selection is still happening, depending on how you define natural. I just had this debate with a friend, though I was saying it wasn't happening. We concluded that we both define natural quite differently. He agreed to call it un-natural selection, while I will still call it de-evolution.
Purely awesome point. I will admit I am no expert on how the mind works. My previous boss was, and his teachings have influenced me quite a bit. This along with a few classes I took this summer on the workings of the brain. Being a very logical person, and loving to debate this issue with my boss, I came up with something quite similar to your mathematics example. Actually mine was with estimating the remaining balance in my checkbook.
The reason that emotion seems to take a back seat is because your example starts to mix calculations with decisions. Calculations are things done to rationalize a decision. Decisions are made based upon emotion,and backed up with the rationalization.
Changing your answer was a decision, clearly made to make the answer correct (clearly emotionally motivated). Changing it to r^3 was because of a calculation you made. Yes, you did decide on r^3 based upon logic, but the most core reason you made the change was because of emotion. Emotion is the reason for every decision.
You did "decide" on 3 over 2 because of a calculation/logic, but again, we are now confusing calculations with decision making.
When I add 1 + 1 in my head, and come up with 2, that isn't really a decision. It is a calculation. Claiming it is 2 instead of 3 is a decision, made so that I don't make a mistake.
Correct, there are humans that do not based their decisions on emotion, and they are ones whom are taking heavy medication or living inside of padded walls.
Can you name 1 decision you have made which was not based on emotion, and justified with logic?
You are correct. There are people whom do not base their decisions entirely on emotion, and that is where many mental disorders arrive from. As for "western civ" or anything else, it is mute. I am only referring to how the mind is hard wired. This hard wiring is irrelevant to any reality or any means of explaining how things work. We are talking hard wiring here. Physical limitations, not mental. It is just as physical as how many legs you are born with. That isn't to say that occasionally someone breaks that mold, but it is rare. The population at large has no clue how to control their body, correct, because they can't even control their own mind. Until one accepts their hard wiring, and learns to use it to it's potential, they will still be claiming they are logical, and unable to continue past this mental block. No matter what their belief and training, we are a slave to our emotions. Natural selection makes this an inevitable reality.
Fear of hunger really isn't the issue here, as bob was probably able to afford other food. The question was, why did he strive to save money. If you want to really get into the details of how the mind works, there are only between 7-9 reasons we do everything that we do. I do not have them all memorized, and some are fairly rare. There are 5 of them which cover most of our decision making. It is how we are wired, we cannot help it.
Brain terminology seems to differ a lot, but I believe the technical terminology would go something like this....
Sensory input comes into the brain. It goes through the hypothalaus, and is then sent simultaneously down 2 paths. A short path to the amygdala? and a long path to a cortex for processing. Before it even arrives at the cortex, that amygdala has considered the emotional responce required to this input, and can then either react before you think about it (jumping when someone taps you on the shoulder, obviously not logical) or define the emotional the meaning and reaction to it, and allow the cortext to process the data. The cortex is in our conscience, the amygdala is not. This is why you do not believe you had any emotional attachment to your decision. My terminology is probably not perfect, but this lets you possibly research this more, and learn a bit about it.
The fact that you "do things" isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about conscious decisions. Unconscious decisions are another matter. Some of which are not even made by the brain, but by the spinal cord (that is a different matter all together).
Interesting argument, but also specious. You have used your assumption to also prove your point. The above was an example, similar to what you would find in any readings on how the human mind makes decisions.
It was called an example, they can be found all over.
If bob had only $2, then making the $2.99 purchase was not possible, so there was no decision to make on that reguard. Now, he could then decide whether to spend the $2 or to not buy cereal at all. This is also an emotional decision, rationalized by logic.
Do some reading on how the mind works. The sensory input, the reptilian fight or flight mind, and your logical cortexes. It is quite facinating. As much as we hate to admit it, we cannot make a decision based upon logic. It will alwasy be based upon emotion, backed up by logic.
"Sure you can probably track backwards far enough to tie an emotion into any decision". Yes, which is the reasoning for making the decision. The logical reasoning is just our rationalization on why what we choose to do "makes sence". Try it. Come up with a decision you have made. Then consider the true reason you made that decision.