Pepping Up Windows

PhairOh writes "Toms Hardware has an article about improving Windows with free and Open Source Software. It features everything from the obvious like Gimp and OpenOffice and also some interesting choices like Virtuawin. From the article: 'The average Windows user tends to be less than satisfied with Windows. And that's no surprise, either, given the rather woeful state of its default applications.'"

Comments

WinDir

[schnits0r]

I like WinDir Stat. It gives a nice colourful representation of your disk usage by directory and by file allowing you to see ther really big files on your system like .Vob, or clusters of really small ones like .jpg.

It's really a fun little thing to look at and use.

IS this an on topic first post?

Re:WinDir

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, its on topic because you copy and pasted it from the article. Shame the mods modded you up instead of RTFA.

Re:WinDir

[Frederic54]

SpaceMonger is a pretty nice application for this too, take a look at a screenshot

Re:WinDir

[BigDogCH]

Win Dir seems nice, but I seem to be using HiJackThis more than any others. Windows really should have shipped with it. :)

On an offtopic note, does anyone have any decent tools for removing the latest wave of homepage hijackers? Not CWS varients. I have about 3-4 calls for next week, and none of them are a CWS varient, and I don't feel like manually removing anything.

Re:WinDir

[Swampy0007]

Personally, I like SequoiaView. Colorful 2-dimensional structures give me a great representation of file usage.

Re:WinDir

[Narcissus]

I dunno guys... I still prefer JDiskReport. Admittedly it's not open source but it is freeware.

Either way this form of application is a lifesaver. I couldn't even begin to count how many times it's helped me find some weird temp file that got dumped somewhere and is now taking up a few hundred meg...

Re:WinDir

[Total_Wimp]

IS this an on topic first post?

I hope it's on topic. I rely heavily on folks like you to tell me what software they find indespensible so I don't have to wade through as much crap to find the gems. I think that's what this article is all about.

Before this, my best source of open source on Windows was TheOpenCD. There's quite a bit of overlap with the Tom's Hardware article and I highly recommend it as a way to get many of these gems all in one place.

TW

Re:WinDir

[saskboy]

It looks like an old utility that was free for home use, that I used to use, and have used as recently as a few months ago. Diskspace I think it was called.

I also use Duplic8 which is a program that searches for duplicate files by their size or name, and lets you delete the duplicate to free up disk space.

Re:WinDir

[rbarreira]

That's pretty cool, thanks - I just installed it and free up a couple of hundred megs just by looking at it :)

Re:WinDir

[JBHarris]

Sounds like something a construction company would say in the south.

'Cletus, get off yer butt and bring me uh windir, stat.'

BTW - I'm from the south.

Re:WinDir

[KevinColyer]

Being on topic is a first anyway is it not?

Re:WinDir

[coandco]

I have to say, my favorite free disk-use visualization program has got to be Scanner by Steffen Gerlach. Its telescoping pie charts help you see what's taking up space than any of the "varied squares" programs I've run across.

CrankyOne

Re:WinDir

[L. VeGas]

Not to pimp my own site too much, but the entire site is dedicated to free tools to improve Windows. It includes many of the tools just listed here. nedwolf.com

Re:WinDir

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.jgoodies.com/freeware/jdiskreport/
Cross-platform, pretty charts.

Re:WinDir

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to pimp my own site too much
cmon man you expect us to go to your site when you're not even willing to pimp it out? ;) work it baby no PHP for you til you get some slackjawed newbie addicted to flash -- good server..

Re:WinDir

[PinkyTuscadero]

Mod parent up. Excellent site.

Re:WinDir

[shokk]

SequoiaView is awesome because it uses treemap technology.

Re:WinDir

[Anonymous Coward]

What about seqoiaview

Re:WinDir

[Anonymous Coward]

Pimp On Brother! Fantastic site.

Re:WinDir

[Saeger]

There's a very similar util to that for Linux called FileLight. I have no idea which was first (and don't care).

Re:WinDir

[Doppler00]

Here's a version of this type of program I made. It renders a 3D tree that represents your file structure. It's difficult to setup, and it's pretty buggy, but it's kind of a neat effect. I never found it very intuitive though to browse files this way, so I abandond the project. I haven't updated it in a long time.

Re:WinDir

[springbokgeek]

Duplic8 is not freeware its trialware BIG difference

Re:WinDir

[quiddity]

i like Scanner. pie charts format.
mmmmmm, pie.

Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[XorNand]

The average Windows user tends to be less than satisfied with Windows. And that's no surprise, either, given the rather woeful state of its default applications. Consider that both Wordpad and Notepad refuse to open larger files, the integrated audio recorder limits recordings to 60 seconds, and Paint, the integrated graphics program, offers only the most rudimentary of features. Worse still, Internet Explorer can neither be considered modern nor safe for browsing, while Outlook Express is known for its affinity for contracting any number of worms and viruses. In short, the out-of-the-box Windows configuration is usually outdated and problem laden.

Ummm.. I'm a bit confused here? When MS started trying to make the OS everything to everyone, they were accused of predatory behavior and taken to court numerous times. Now we're complaining that MS Paint isn't powerful enough for graphics editing and that Windows Audio Recorder doesn't hold a candle to other third-party utils?

It's one thing to point out some nifty FOSS apps to people that may not have heard of them. It's an entirely another thing to jump on the anti-MS bandwagon and claim that this functionality should have been included in the OS.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[JPriest]

You my friend must leave Slashdot right this minute! We won't have your logic or reasoning getting in our way.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[interiot]

Windows Package management, and ease of acquisition and setup of programs is nowhere near as good as open source software.

In addition, Linux has a significant amount of software that's available for free to the user, due to its diverse community of developers. Windows has somewhat of a shareware community, but those are more leeches than anything. The best solidly-built freeware on Windows comes from Linux.

Microsoft doesn't have to write all the programs, or filter all the programs to do that. They just need a default package manager that everyone uses. And a good (no nag screens, no half-assed software design, etc) freeware community. Until then, Debian (or redhat, or ....) are better.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

I think the big thing is that MS doesn't offer anything but MS software in their OS. If they were to give you the option of installing VLC and Windows Media Player, MSPaint and GIMP, or even Internet Explorer and Firefox (many would love the ability to REMOVE IE, but that's another point) then there wouldn't be so much of a problem. That's basically the reason you don't hear people complaining that Ubuntu Linux comes pre-installed with Firefox and not Konqueror, Galeon, (or what have you), since they're not Ubuntu's products.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[everphilski]

You have discovered the secret of /. ... I'd suggest you start running. The black vans are on their way...

-everphilski-

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Prophet of Nixon]

Yea, in many people's minds MS just immutably damned... what they actually do or don't do doesn't really affect their damnation.

Maybe they could make everyone happy by dropping their half-assed small apps and supporting some FOSS apps in Windows by default. It would be awesome to install Windows 2000 or XP and have the option to install GIMP, VLC, Crimson Editor, a better console, and a decent FTP client preloaded. OpenOffice would be nice too, but since MS-Office is big business, I could understand that being left out.

Actually, some of those small apps still do have roles... for instance, Paint vs. Gimp. Paint is perhaps 1% of Gimp, but Paint also opens almost instantly, and is perfect for dumping printscreens or copied bit of graphics (if only it had better save options). Notepad is similarly useful for dropping bits of text for later use, without firing up a larger, slower, ram-eating word processor. I don't really use either as an application to do work in, but I use them incessantly as buffers between other applications or documents.

They're sort of like pockets. My pockets don't get any work done for me, but if I'm out in the shed to find some bolts I need for the car, I can cram the bolts in my pockets, walk out front to the car, and proceed to completely mangle the car since I'm an awful mechanic. The pockets got the bolts there so I wouldn't need to take the car directly to them.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Anonymous Coward]

When MS started trying to make the OS everything to everyone, they were accused of predatory behavior and taken to court numerous times. Now we're complaining that MS Paint isn't powerful enough for graphics editing and that Windows Audio Recorder doesn't hold a candle to other third-party utils?

Yes. It's almost as if there are...different people making the two criticisms. It's true, Microsoft will never be able to please everyone. There are very few people in this world who can please everyone. That doesn't mean they're beyond criticism.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[olman]

Maybe they could make everyone happy by dropping their half-assed small apps and supporting some FOSS apps in Windows by default. It would be awesome to install Windows 2000 or XP and have the option to install GIMP, VLC, Crimson Editor, a better console, and a decent FTP client preloaded. OpenOffice would be nice too, but since MS-Office is big business, I could understand that being left out.

You know, if they did that, everyone would hate Microsoft for cashing in on the voluntary work of OSS guys..

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[tehshen]

It's an entirely another thing to jump on the anti-MS bandwagon and claim that this functionality should have been included in the OS.

I don't know how anyone can go "Microsoft can't include any good applications by default, so that's ok, we understand". It is not ok! Microsoft's monopoly means it has to play by different rules - and in this case, the rules are making its products worse.

It is true that MS Paint isn't powerful enough, and neither are any of the other utilities. And yes, better functionality should be included, but as long as Microsoft is clinging so desperately to its monopoly, that isn't going to happen.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[NutscrapeSucks]

I have a fair amount of A/V freeware on my windows box and very little of it "comes from Linux". In fact none of the freeware I use has anything to do with Linux, except possibly VLC, and when I've tried such things as gimp or FreeCiv, I've found that the Linux-ported UI was just terrible.

Firefox and OpenOffice are both competitive applications that are designed in a cross-platform fashion, but both projects admit that their focus is on Windows because that's the competitive environment that matters. Neither "come from Linux" at all.

In fact, the experience with the Mozilla suite proved that it's easy to be complacient and win over Linux users just by showing up. But the inability to attract Windows users is why Firefox adopted the early slogan "The Best Windows Browser".

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

One thing I find lacking most times I use Windows (compared to KDE and GNOME) is that when I press Print-screen key, it doesn't just open a window asking me to save the screenshot. KSnapshot and whatever the hell the name of the thing GNOME uses is are quite easy, and save time compared to the extra Start -> Run -> mspaint -> CTRL-V -> File -> Save As -> etc that's involved with Windows.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[interiot]

I should have clarified... I'm a 100% pure-bred command-line guy. And it seems like the only decent Windows tools there are unix-ports.

But yeah, on the wider Windows stuff, it comes from the wider open source community, and isn't Linux only (eg. things like Inkscape, Ethereal, Orbiter, Celestia, Blender, ...). They're all stand-outs, and they'll all either still be here with us in 20 years, or some better open-source software will have surpassed them.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[NutscrapeSucks]

Now that you mention it, I do have various GNU commandline tools installed. Thanks for reminding me.

I also work with a ton of open-source Java stuff. Another strong development community that isn't necessarily Linux-oriented.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[theantipop]

I don't understand this argument. Why should Microsoft sell you someone else's products?

If they were to give you the option of installing...

I'm sorry, I didn't know Windows prevented me from doing any of this. If Microsoft were to bundle all these options for you, not only would many still be unhappy because package c was excluded, and not only would many complain about further bloat, but they would also have to support other people's applications. I think this line of reasoning is unreasonable. Why should Ford give you the choice of using a Porsche engine?

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

IE and Firefox are both free (price wise). Microsoft doesn't make money on IE, so why shouldn't they offer Firefox as an alternative?

It also wouldn't bloat things if MS gave you options at install time as to which you wanted. For exclusively Firefox users on Windows, it would make things lighter since you wouldn't have IE installed to waste space on the HDD.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[hcob$]

It would be really awsome to have the option of installing Firefox or Opera instead of IE. Who wants to lay bets on that?!?!

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the big thing is that MS doesn't offer anything but MS software in their OS.

The opposite is exaclty what I dislike about many Linux distros. They don't give me just an OS with a few good default apps, they give 5 friggin CDs with 10 different friggin applications for anything one wants to do, 90% of which are out-of-date or I don't need All I want is an OS with a good set of core applications (window manager, text editor, command-line, file manager) that are usable and present in all installations. This way I can learn them and use them everywhere. Other apps, I'll choose them myself and download them or get the CDs separately.

Just 1 CD for the OS and the bare essentials. The rest, it's up to me to get, either individually or from separate "application bundle" CDs.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[bart416]

MS should make the setup of windows like the one of most linux distro's.
Make it possible to select what you want to install.
And not integrate everything into the OS.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[AmigaBen]

Microsoft's monopoly means it has to play by different rules

That's the key point that so many Microsoft apologists around here seem to miss. Microsoft doesn't get to play by the same rules. Sorry. Maybe they should have played nice in the first place, if they don't like the different set of rules thing...

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[manifoldronin]

OK, now that Opera is free, why shouldn't Microsoft _also_ offer it as yet another option? What about Lynx? and you can keep going from there - there are probably 769 alternative and free text editors that are all better than notepad, should Microsoft list all of them?

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Khyber]

Microsoft was not taken to court by trying to make the OS everything to everyone, rather, they were taken to court because they integrated IE into the OS, combined with Explorer, so that one window could do many, many more functions than just check around stuff on your HD and modify the contents or run the contents.

Of course, they got around that by saying "It's Windows 98, it's a new version with different capabilities" thanks to the non-technical judges who couldn't understand/think of the potential problems that could happen by integrating the browser into the OS, as unstable as it already was.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[freshman_a]

They just need a default package manager that everyone uses.

That would be nice. It'd be nice if Linux had standard package manager too. Instead, you have rpm, deb, and tgz (if you're on a Slackware based distro) and a giant pissing contest over which is best.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[psyon1]

When Microsoft first introduced Internet Explorer, they REQUIRED OEMs to license IE, or they would not be able to license Windows. This was frowned upon, and Microsoft was told to stop. Rather than stop, Microsoft integrated IE into the operating system, so it would still force people to distribute it. That is why people started hating Microsoft for including software, as for how it turned into the bashing that it is, I am not sure. I for one don't care what Microsoft ships with their operating system. They could make windows run ONLY their software, I don't care. I always have the choice of NOT using their products. Another posted mentioned Ford not offering Porshe engines as an option, and I think that is a good comparison. I can't think of another area of industry where one manufacturer is FORCED to be compatible with its competition.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

Notepad is just a plain text editior. Web browsing is a much more advanced program type. I'd say that MS should offer the option of installing a few major web browsers. Opera, Firefox, Netscape, and others that are free. Why not? They're going to be using DVDs for installation of Vista anyway, which should leave a lot of room left over. Failing that, they could easilly prompt on install, and get it to download and open the installer. It's not like they have to offer every flavor of web browsing, but some easy options would be nice right from the get-go .

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[rizole]

Let me point you to Irfanview It's a small, nippy graphic viewer with some (but not many) editing tools, slideshow and thumbnail capabilities and can handle pretty much any kind of graphic file. (It also supports movies, sounds and text, but is not designed with that in mind)

As a graphic buffer it is fantastic. Quicker and more flexible than Paint, excellent keyboards shortcuts, yadda, yadda, yadda. Love it.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[dirty]

Because when Firefox crashes people will send the bug reports to Microsoft. There is no incentive for Microsoft to bundle Firefox, and a very real cost if they do. It just doesn't make sense.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm.. I'm a bit confused here? When MS started trying to make the OS everything to everyone, they were accused of predatory behavior and taken to court numerous times. Now we're complaining that MS Paint isn't powerful enough for graphics editing and that Windows Audio Recorder doesn't hold a candle to other third-party utils?

Why does this confuse you? MS has a history of spending exactly as much as needed to kill the competition and no more which has a dramatic chilling effect on the market. The opinion expressed is that they should either cook or get out of the kitchen. As it stands, if someone sells shnitzel, they promise steak and force feed you hot dogs.

Suppose a company produced, for example, a disk compression utility that was very successful. Now suppose the next version of Windows included an almost exact (right down to the patented bits) copy of that software. This is going to hurt the 3rd party and benefit the customer right? Half right because the customer has to pay for that software even if it comes "free" and even if they don't need it. In the meantime, the original company starts to go out of business because, of course, they can't compete with "free" (as in "you've already paid for it"). In the meantime, suppose (totally hypothetically, of course), that the MS implementation was actually incorrect and caused data loss. The customers who actually need or want the application can't buy the original because that company got innovated; they can't use the current version (that they were forced to pay for with their Windows licence) because it's broken, they're reluctant anyways because disk compression (mp3 whatever) "doesn't work" and it's tough to convince the corner office you need a hammer when you're holding a flat rock. Finally, to add insult to injury, since there is no longer any competition in that space, MS spends no money to improve the product until another 3rd party springs up to repeat the cycle.

I've been in this business for 20 years. My first computer ran MS (TRS Basic which was, btw, open source) and I was a big MS fan. In the meantime, I have realized that their business model makes it impossible to be more than a fringe player in Windows and that "tactical" changes in every version make it impossible to ethically make a living developing and selling software for Windows. If I wanted to be unethical, I could develop any number of vertical market products using MS tools and know that I have my suc^H^H^Hcustomers on a string for fixes and patches for the rest of their lives.

In context of that, let's look at MS's new SME strategy. Why are they going up against Accpac et al? Because they are the fattest market left. How does the strategy work? Less than ethical (or ignorant) vertical market integrators use MS tools to quickly prototype SME solutions. If those itegrators can get a few customers on the hook, they have a revenue stream into perpetuity because every six months or so when MS releases a new version of anything, the VMI gets several thousand dollars worth of repair work to fix everything it broke.

To the customers:
- When dealing with a VMI, get a contract that states that they are liable to fix any severe defects INCLUDING those caused by MS upgrades for a period of at least three years at their expense. Make sure that you are fully upgraded at the end of that period and you should be good for at least 2 more. Also ensure that the source is held in escrow against a failure to comply with the above.

To the ethical VMI:
- You've seen it happen a million times before...

To the unethical VMI:
- Congratulations! Your ship just came in.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[manifoldronin]

The problem is, you can't draw a clear line between a "plain simple" application and a "much more advanced" one (and now throw in "major"), and hence between "what Microsoft doesn't have to offer option for" and "what Microsoft should." Besides, regardles of the complexity of the applications, it's just not fair to _force_ Microsoft to list particular 3rd party packages in the installation of their _operation system_. I don't see people asking Linux distro builders to include every "major" browsers in their distro. Windows allows a user to uninstall and install things as she likes (except uninstalling IE maybe but at least it doesn't prevent installing other browsers), I think that's as far as Microsoft's responsibility needs to go.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[nahdude812]

I dunno. I like the ability to paste the image into whatever program I'm using, without having to use an intermediate file. It's less often that I want to have a file of the screenshot than that I want the screenshot pasted into whatever document or email I'm writing. If I *do* want to save it to a file, chances are I want to crop it down to some subsection of the window, so I'm having to go through an image editor anyhow. Of course in my job I have Photoshop open 90% of the time anyhow, so it's certainly very little burden to Ctrl-N, Ctrl-V, M(arquee), select, Alt-I->P (crop), Ctrl-Shift-S (save as) such that it only takes 3-4 seconds total to save my cropped image. I recognize that that same task is more time consuming for others.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[geekwithsoul]

I believe it is a two-fold problem that people have with Microsoft.

1. They don't need to include all the programs that they do

2. The programs they do include are crap

The only real solution MS could move to is a plug-in model. Have a base OS that can be added to, as a user needs, with programs that not only integrate with the OS, but with other "plug-ins." But for that they'd either have to spend 5 years de-tangling their spaghetti code or just start over from scratch. In other words, it will never happen.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[NAACPsupporter]

Ok, when I install in Linux, where are my icons? Where did the installation go? It may be simple to some of you, but not to me. In windows it's easy to install and un-install.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

Who said to "force" Microsoft? It sure would be nice if they did, but it's not like anybody would hold a gun to their Balmer's head and get them to do this.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[MWelchUK]

It's one thing to point out some nifty FOSS apps to people that may not have heard of them. It's an entirely another thing to jump on the anti-MS bandwagon and claim that this functionality should have been included in the OS.

I don't think that is what is being suggested at all. Microsoft sees fit to include a whole host of apps in with its OS, most of them are willfully inadequate for anything but light use. Some of the apps have such bad security records that it may be better if they weren't included at all. OK, it could be problematic for some if they weren't included, all that having to install an email client or use what was bundled with the PC when it was bought or what came on that AOL CD when they got broadband. It might however have spared the rest of us having to deal with the quantity of spam or the bandwidth drain of all those zombied machines trying to find other targets.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[ZakuSage]

That's why there's a ton of different Linux distros, and no "official" one. If you don't like that Fedora Core needs 4 CDs to install, then use Ubuntu (1 CD), Slackware (2 CDs), Arch (1 CD), Gentoo (1 or 2 CDs), Yoper (1 CD), or make your own distro. Arch, for example, is a bare-essentials distro.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Prophet of Nixon]

You're 100% correct on that... its actually my default viewer for everything. I somehow never realized that I could paste into it (its never something I just run, I always just open things with it). Greatest image viewer/lite image manipulator ever made.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever looked at this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Installer

It is very powerful and was designed from smart people with real life problems in mind.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[BeanThere]

Ummm.. I'm a bit confused here?

Read the 'findings of fact' of the case, should clear up any confusion.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[wvitXpert]

To me there are arguments for both sides. I don't like the idea of MS putting everyone out of buisness because they include every possible app with windows. But I also would like to have a functional, usefull computer without having to install a hundred different programs. I mean, an argument can be made that MS should only ship the core of the OS since there are other options out there for almost every component of Windows, but I wouldn't want to pay for that.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Lucractius]

Arent they doing this with vista... thought this was how they were making their 7 versions of Vista easy for them.

There are wonderful steps forward in vista... Unfortunatly they hoped on the DRM bus and it droped them off 10 blocks back from the corner of XP Ave and 2k Street. Then they caught the Anticompeditive train 5 miles sideways and now their in Software New Jersy. Hope they get Mugged Bad!

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[fm6]

The comment you replied to is pretty dumb. But hypocrisy is not one of its flaws. You can't hold one Linux advocate responsible for everything every other Linux advocate says.

The big flaw here is the assumption that the quality of Windows's default apps is important to anybody. I simply can't picture anybody saying "Windows Sucks" just because they had to pay extra for a fancy word processor or graphic program. The person is just making too much of the fact that Windows distros come with lots of free software. Which leaves one small factor out of the equation: very little of that software is any good.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[lahvak]

Ok, when I install in Linux, where are my icons?

If you installed a package using your distro's package manager, they will be in the menus, where all the other icons are. If it's a command line application, there will be no icons, but it will be in your path, and your shell will include it in its tab completion mechanism.

Where did the installation go?

Two answers:

First: I don't care. I have the icons to start it from the GUI, it's in the PATH so I ca easily start it from the command line, why should I care where it is?

Second: unless you installed a package that was designed by some raving idiot, the installed files will be exactly where they belong to. Binaries in /usr/bin, libraries in /usr/lib, data ans shared config files in /usr/share, and so on. Unlike on Windows, where the installer dumps everything into some random directory, so you end up with your hard disk completely cluttered with junk after just a couple of months.

And if you really want to know where did the installed files go, most Linux package managers let you see the complete list of files installed by a package, with locations and everything. I don't see why a regular user would ever want to do that, but the option is there. You can also take a random file and ask which package did it come from.

It may be simple to some of you, but not to me. In windows it's easy to install and un-install.

For many applications in windows, you have to go to the Programs menu and find the "uninstall ..." item. You click on that and hope you didn't accidentally erased the directory containing the application with its uninstall data in some mad attempt to clean your disk. I don't see what's so easy about that.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[jp10558]

This is the problem though - mainly with MS being an OS and an App company. It's not that we're saying MS should have to load linux kernal modules - far from it.

It's us saying that Ford should not be able to require firestone tires (and they can't) if I want to put Goodyear on there.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a story, the Handicapper General. All men must be kept equal. Too smart? Put a device in your ear to distract your thinking. Too pretty? Wear an ugly mask.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[runderwo]

You know, if they did that, everyone would hate Microsoft for cashing in on the voluntary work of OSS guys..

Not really. Unless they decide to close up the source for some reason.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[psyon1]

Ford could design a new type of tire, patent it, and only allow Firestone to manufacture them, you know, for quality assurance purposes. That would require you to use Firestone tires.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[manifoldronin]

Well, my friend, in this society, you don't have to point a gun to somebody's head to force him - people achieve that by grabbing a moral highground and just staring at ya.

Re:Talking out both sides of out mouths.

[fbg111]

You my friend must leave Slashdot right this minute! We won't have your logic or reasoning getting in our way.

Or reading the article! Away with you!

My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[geomon]

My older brother is a 100% MS man. He spend about half of our visits together telling me how I have wasted the last 10 years working with Linux. On one of his last visits he saw me switching virtual windows in X and thought that looked like a cool app. I searched the web and Virtuawin. When he came over I installed it on his laptop and he has reported that his productivity has increased. I don't know what he is using for a metric, but he likes the idea of switching windows to applications that aren't buried behind muliple instances of IE.

I guess there are still some ways that *NIX can influence Microsoft, but at this point everyone is using and recycling each other ideas. Few companies are actually building new and interesting interfaces.

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[Enigma_Man]

I've tried numerous "virtual desktop" programs on my machine at work (have to use XP), and none of them work worth a crap. The most common problem for me is: when changing desktops, the entries in the taskbar (which also sucks a lot) sometimes get "stuck" such that I can see things in the taskbar that aren't present on the current desktop. Some virtual-desktop programs I've tried actually close programs at random (at least they disappear from anywhere I can get to them). I have yet to find one that works well in XP.

-Jesse

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[harrkev]

Just as a follow-up, even Microsoft made one as part of their XP "Power Toys." The GUI is nice, but it still just doesn't work well. If even M$ themselves can't get it right, then is it possible that the design of windows itself precludes a fully-functioning desktop manager?

And note that, from what I know, the "Power Toys" were made by geeks and for geeks. No marketing guys at all.

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[rcamera]

i find that multiple monitors works well for cleaning up - especially if you cheat. i have 2 monitors for work, 1 for play (primarily outlook & ie). of course, the 2 'work' monitors are filled with a single exceed session (full screen), which has 4 virtual desktops (olvwm). it's a nice setup as i can have 9 monitors worth of information displayed on 3 monitors. i don't need to worry about any virtual desktop emulation for xp - i let olvwm handle it. and the nice part, since exceed is just one app, the taskbar isn't cluttered.

as a side-note, have you checked out the microsoft virtual desktop utility (it's toward the bottom of the page...)? i have found it to work just fine on my home system (only 1 monitor there)

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[jsight]

The most common problem for me is: when changing desktops, the entries in the taskbar (which also sucks a lot) sometimes get "stuck" such that I can see things in the taskbar that aren't present on the current desktop

Interestingly, I get almost exactly the same problem on WinXP without a virtual desktop installed. Sometimes and app just disappears to where it is in the Alt-Tab, but not on the task bar. Doing an alt-tab to it makes them instantly appear in both again, though. :)

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[Enigma_Man]

This is a reply to all in the level above: Yeah, I've tried the powertoys version of the virtual-desktop-switcher, but it's really aggravating to use, and it takes up lots of taskbar realestate, and didn't seem to have any options like screen-edge-mouse-switching IIRC. I also have the problem where even without a virtual desktop switcher, applications will "disappear" from the taskbar, but I can still alt-tab to them. It only seems to happen with Firefox and Thunderbird though (hmmm, Microsoft underhandedness, or just common bugs?). The reason why I even need/want a desktop switcher is because at work, I often have 60+ windows/applications open at any given time. I have to expand the taskbar to two levels to even see all of it (otherwise I get the scroll thing on the side, and even two-levels deep sometimes I get the scroll thing). I have to remember where everything is, 'cause I can't read the text very easily, and it totally aggravates me when programs "disappear", 'cause they inevitably reappear at the end of the task list, throwing the whole thing off. The windows taskbar _sucks_ a lot, you can't rearrange things or even drag-and-drop files onto it; windows actually pops up a thing saying "you can't do this"... If they can pop up a message, then they can do it, damnit.

-Jesse

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[trekstar25]

I think it's a little more likely that the reason the Power Toy "doesn't work well" is because it's a Power Toy, not an feature or application for sale.

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[shokk]

he likes the idea of switching windows to applications that aren't buried behind muliple instances of IE.

Wouldn't it have been better to get him to use something with tabbed browsing?

Re:My Brother, The Windows Fanboy

[rjdohnert]

I have used the XP Power Toy Desk manager for years and have not had any of the issues you bring up and considering I make it a standard install on all the company machines and everyone else uses it and they havent had any issues with it either. In fact I would say its the best desktop manager out there.

how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

I get the impression that there are more users who actually _like_ (not just put up with) Mac OS X (or maybe even GNU/Linux) than there are who actually _like_ (not just put up with) Windows. Anyone here actually like Windows? I'm not trolling, just want to know. If you do, what do you like about it?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[geomon]

I would guess that familiarity is one of the keys. My brother likes Windows because he can always count on an app looking somewhat like all the other Windows apps. That may or may not be true, but the impression is what counts for him. He also likes how everything installs relatively easily. All he has to do is download a program, click on the icon, and it is installed. He tried the copy of SuSE I gave him but was overwhelmed when he started getting messages about broken dependencies. I am not bothered by them, but he found the whole experience frustrating.

I know there is yum and apt, but my brother (and I assume this is true for people like him as well) has been using Windows for so many years that moving to another platform is equivalent to losing a pet animal: It is something he is just unprepared to consider.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[rlbond86]

I like windows, but that's because they don't make games for linux.
And by "they," I mean big companies.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[cerelib]

I like Windows XP. I believe it to not only be stable, but easy to use productively. When I want to do something it is usually pretty easy to accomplish in Windows XP. I have tried multiple flavors of Linux, but it never felt stable.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[j3tt]

I do. I play a lot of games on it. I do tinker with Linux because I'm always fascinated about learning "other" things. Frankly, I do not understand why folks "fight" over this. If somebody is happy and contented with what they are using then leave them be. If you are able to present an alternative that they eventually like and use then great.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[mblase]

Anyone here actually like Windows? I'm not trolling, just want to know. If you do, what do you like about it?

Nine out of ten Slashdotters surveyed answered "a second mouse button."

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

Indeed!

I'm a programmer, and I don't like messing with broken dependencies to install software either. I may have the knowledge to know how to fix these things, but unless it's an application that I really want, I probably won't bother.

That's one thing that is often better about OS X than GNU/Linux, although not everything is easy to install there. Windows definitely has been good about that as well, possibly better than OS X even.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Rinnt]

Though I can't say I care much for windows, I did know an admin that seemed to be a huge fan. Unaware of this fact, I called him one day to spread the exciting news about OpenOffice (I had just found out and wanted to let others know about this $$ saving alternative). He cut me short and said "I don't care for open source - we only do Microsoft here". That was pretty shocking to me since I'd never actually encounted someone *seriously* devoted to Microsoft. Then again, in retrospect, maybe those that "love" Microsoft simply fear the unknown of OSS...

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[CyricZ]

These days I find that different Windows apps are beginning to look nothing alike. You have renegades like WinAmp, with their godawful themes. Then there is the removal of the toolbar in the upcoming release of Office. Of course there's also Mozilla-based software with its themes. And software like GAIM, which can use various GTK+ themes.

At least with most X11 toolkits you can go with a fairly standard Motif theme, if you really want consistency.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

I agree.

As much as I like Unix-style systems, they aren't for everybody. I think we all need to be less of a [platform-x] advocate and more of a [platform-thats-really-best-for-the-particular-use r] advocate.

To a lot of people, not having to even think about compatibility issues. They aren't "computer people", they just need to use this computer as a tool. They might not even like computers. For those people, as long as Windows is dominant, Windows may be their best choice. They don't want to use Linux. They don't care. They don't even care that it exists. I think that Mac OS would be better for them as far as usability goes, but not for compatibility, which, for them, is likely more important.

I don't like spending a lot of time with a washing machine; if the one I have works, and accepts the detergents I can buy at the store, then it's fine with me... although some clothes-cleaning experts may be more picky. :-)

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[geomon]

These days I find that different Windows apps are beginning to look nothing alike.

It is funny that you had that observation because I was thinking the same thing when I was writing my post. I noticed that my brother and his circle of friends will often *avoid* apps that do not have the same theme/look as other Windows apps. They are completely locked in to the way Microsoft presents options to them.

If Vista breaks too much with the original thematic concept from the Win9X desktop (by brother and his friends opt for the Windows "Classic" theme), then he might refuse to upgrade.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Tezkah]

I like Windows. I like the fact it is able to do suspend/hibernate/resume on my laptop without crashing, and it is able to use my graphics card drivers to make the smooth scrolling in Opera extremely smooth, and I didn't have to compile/reinstall the kernel in order to GET these graphics drivers.

I like the third party software, last time I was on a Mac there was absolutely no way to use videoconferencing with the three major IM platforms (Thats changed since iChat A/V came out, but is there anything available for Linux?).

I like that I can run Photoshop, and use a familiar interface that I can theme to my hearts content. I'm also able to run Free Software like Firefox (meshes best with Windows, IMO), GAIM, and others from even this article, but still have a healthy set of closed source apps when FOSS apps aren't able to match them (still haven't found a replacement for Office Outlook 2003).

Basically, Windows works for me right now. I enjoy using my computer with Windows on it. I'm sure I'd enjoy having a Mac (waiting for the x86 Powerbooks), and I have run Linux, but right now Windows is the best fit.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[everphilski]

Windows XP just works. In order to get the conglomeration of games and engineering software I need working on Linux, it's just too much work. I put in my 40+ at work, I take grad school classes at night, I don't have time (even if it's only one time and I never f*ck it up) to set up a linux box. XP installed in under an hour, didn't need to spend hours upon hours getting oddball pieces of software working with WINE (some of the software I need to use has a userbase of
I want to come home and relax, not be a sysadmin.

And (parting shot) MacOS is just too simple. Sorry. My brain requires multiple mouse buttons, by default :)

-everphilski-

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[d99-sbr]

I like it. IMHO it is fast; it is stable; it offers user interface consistency only rivaled by MacOS; it has superior hardware support, especially for laptops; it has superior software support, especially for games; it is familiar to everybody who uses my computer; and most of the good open source projects have good Windows versions.

At work I use SuSE 9.2, and while it certaily offers some benefits, I would not consider running Linux on my Thinkpad anytime soon.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know if it familiarity or just the right balance. I like Windows because it suits my needs for eye candy, functionality and geekiness. It let's me try a whole bunch of softwares and hardwares (especially the real cheapo ones without having to worry if they are compatible. At the same time, if I need to do something trivial like change the extensions of 4000 files at once, I can do that easily on the command line. I use Macs every day because my office is full of them and i have just started dabbling with Linux at home but I still find Windows gives me the right mix I need.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

And that's a big part of it for a lot of people. Gaming is one of the primary uses for home computers, and frankly, neither OS X nor GNU/Linux offer enough games of the sort that the users actually want.

Windows itself isn't actually better in this regard (the operating system isn't necessarily better for gaming), but the net effect of its popularity is that more games are written for it.

I myself am not an avid gamer; I still play my Sega Genesis every now and then, and some freeware arcade games on my Mac. I spend most of my home computer time working with digital photography, writing, web browsing, and programming, all of which work great on a Mac. If I were an avid gamer, then a Mac probably wouldn't cut it for me.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Kaa]

Anyone here actually like Windows? I'm not trolling, just want to know. If you do, what do you like about it?

It runs software (from Photoshop to World of Warcraft) that I want to run and does it on generic hardware.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[GungaDan]

I think "liking" an OS is a bit of an odd concept. I like certain apps. If the apps I like run on an OS, cool deal. It's kind of like "liking" a book. Most often you mean to say you like the written content, not the underlying paper and ink. But then there are those fetishists who genuinely prefer a hardcover copy of a book to paperback, precisely for its non-written content aspects. OS fetishism is similar, I think.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

My first Mac computer was an iBook, and I bought a multi-button USB mouse for it.

Earlier this year I bought a flat-panel iMac, and decided to give a try to the one-button mouse. Everything else Apple does tends to be a great design, maybe they are on to something with the mouse.

Somewhat to my surprise, I found it reasonably easy to use. I actually usually don't need to use a second button, and when I do, the Control key works fine. In the end, though, I think that I still prefer using a multi-button mouse with a scroll wheel, but the point is, the one-button mouse wasn't as bad as I might have thought. :-) :-)

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[NutscrapeSucks]

I would turn this question around, and ask why anyone would use Mac or Linux if they weren't totally in love with the enviornment. These OSes tend to attract people that are polarized to the point where their love outweighs the compatiblity and other costs associated with a minority platform.

(Actually that's not totally true, because Apple at least has a base of "ambivalent regular users" that are on Mac because that's What People Use For Graphic Design.)

Like Linux, the Windows lovers tend to be programmers, sysadmins, and other techies. They aren't sitting around jerking about the graphical shell like the Mac/Linux users, instead they are focusing on Visual Studio or ActiveDirectory and the other tools that let them get things done on Windows.

My observation is that maybe only 3% of users have any sort of computer platform love going at all -- and maybe 1% love Windows, 1% love Apple, 1% love Linux/Unix. Almost everyone else just runs Windows.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[mrcdeckard]

you know, i was actually pretty impressed when i finally gave up win98 and booted winXP. "microsoft got it right," i thought.

this lasted until i got a dvd drive/burner. dvd functionality in winxp is null -- then i put os X on my mac and now the win XP box gathers dust while the other 3 os x machines are the ones that get used. the bundled apps with os x are very cool (without trying to "dominate" the market). (for an extra bonus, dig through the applications directory in the osx10.4 dev folder. some real gems in there.)

so yeah, i LIKE to us os x, while i use winXP when i HAVE to (usually when i'm cleaning malware off my friends computers).

maybe vista will "catch up", and perhaps even be better than os x, but to do that, it'll have to be an exceptional experience indeed.

mr c

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[crystalattice]

IMO, OSX has the best installer. Once you get the .dmg disc image, you either drag the icon to you applications folder or just double-click it to install it, depending on the application. If it's the drag-and-drop style, it's easier to install than Windows.

Personally I don't like the way SuSE and other RPM style distros install programs. Too often do I run into dependency problems. Debian based distros like Libranet (my current favorite) usually don't have this problem, at least in my experience.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

My brother likes Windows because he can always count on an app looking somewhat like all the other Windows apps. That may or may not be true, but the impression is what counts for him. He also likes how everything installs relatively easily.

How amusing, that is very close to some of the reasons I don't like Windows. On Windows programs are not standardized enough; not all programs have the same keyboard shortcuts for very standard functions, not all programs have preferences, version information, etc. in the same place, and not all programs can access the same functionality (like spellchecking, language translation, custom scripts, etc.).

Installing software on Windows usually requires and installer that often needs administrative privileges, and scatters files all over the place. Uninstalling often requires yet another program to remove all the program parts and for every program you have to trust the developers and packagers to properly design the installer and uninstaller. One thing I really like about OS X is the self contained programs. Drag it somewhere on your hard drive and you are done. Drag it to the trash and it is gone. Simple and easy by comparison to Windows. Also, have you ever tried migrating an application from one Windows box to another? Good luck, you basically need to image the entire partition or install it from scratch. Compare that to dragging the program from a shared folder to the computer you want it to be installed on. Heck I once saw a guy in CompUSA plug in his iPod to a demo OS X machine and drag MS Word onto it to take home. Try that with a Windows machine.

I find it amusing that someone would prefer an OS based on several features where Windows is way behind.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[kfg]

I tinker with Windows because I'm always fascinated about learing other things. I also use it as a gaming platform because "my" games do not run properly under WINE (AOE, for instance, actually detects WINE use and sends you a nastygram about trying to run a decompiler on it. Interesting, no?).

However, just because I use Windows for an application doesn't mean I like it, which is the point of the article, that Windows users don't like it and are extremely discontent.

KFG

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[cdn2k1]

I like that it takes the control out of my hands, because everyone knows computers are smarter than people.

# ls /root
This folder contains files that keep your system working properly.
You should not modify its contents.
#

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[dxprog]

I love WinXP. I personally have never had a problem running XP (been using it for about 3 years now). It looks great, it works great, what else do you need?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[JoshDanziger]

I like windows. There.. I said it. Will anyone on /. actually continue to read my comment? Only time will tell....

And it's not just because I'm an MS fanboy either. It's a good operating system.

1. It's stable. It has gone BSOD on me a few times, and that was because I had a bad HP print driver that was bringing it down. I never feel a need to reboot it because its "getting sluggish". The programs that crash on my PC most frequently are Mozilla Firefox followed by Microsoft Outlook. In fact, I prefer when Outlook Crashes. It just restarts and repairs itself and I pick up where I left off. When FF crashes, I usually lose 10-20 tabs that I was looking at and will never recover.

2. The software is good. Despite /. popular opinion, MS Office is good software. I tried using OpenOffice once, and it was just as good. But the Mail Merge interface sucked, and that was an important feature for me.

3. It's faster. My 1.8ghz Celeron laptop with 192MB of ram runs Windows 100x better than Linux. Fedora Core takes significantly longer to start up and feels more sluggish when running applications (I use gnome, the FC default environment).

4. Easier to install applications. I think that's a given. Linux needs a better package installation system, period. Yum and apt are good, but they don't hold a candle. Windows' automatic updates are far superior to RHN

5. Configuration Utilities. They're just better in Windows. Period. The closest that I've ever had to get to a command line for Windows Administration is the "ipconfig" utility. Windows doesn't have nasty configuration files. I've only HAD to enter the registry to fix something (which is nasty) once.

   Even when there is a GUI configuration tool in Linux, I have a hard time finding it in FC. There are at least two different interfaces to configure network adapters, but only one of those two interfaces can start/stop the network card. It just doesn't make sense.

As a disclaimer, I am not a sheltered Windows fanboy who has only ever tried Linux out for 5 minutes. I do all my my development for CS classes in Linux, and I am no stranger to the command line. I *do* run Linux on my laptop, but the most common way for me to interact with it is by running an X server on my windows machine and an ssh connection to the laptop.

I am convinced that Open Source development is a superior model, but I am not convinced that Linux is a superior system simply because it is an open source OS. At least not on the desktop.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[xtracto]

And ont the other hand one thing I like about windows is like it is possible to use almost any GUI app with just the keyboard (using TABS), something Linux do not have.

And now that we are at it, please allow me this rant: I hate the way Ms Windows changed the presentation of the folders so when you open "my documents" you can not see the tree view, fortunately there is A BIG BUTTON called "FOLDERS" that lets you do that.

On Fedora Core (using Gnome's Nautius I think) when you open your documents you get a new window, with the same setup as in Windows, then if you click ona new folder, you get another new window (I HATE THAT), I tried to make the left tree view appear and, after a long navitagion trhough the menues I could not find any button or checkbox that when selected made the tree appear.

I managed to do it after pressing all of my keyboards keys, because I remembered somehow in KDE presing F9 or something made the same tree appear but, that for me is a crappy behaviour.

thank you... you can mod my purely own opinion COMMENT down linux fanboys.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[chrismcdirty]

I don't like spending a lot of time with a washing machine; if the one I have works, and accepts the detergents I can buy at the store, then it's fine with me... although some clothes-cleaning experts may be more picky. :-)

Thank you, sir, for your excellent analogy. Not that it'll be helpful to the tons of /. zealots out there, but humorous and informative, nonetheless.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Delphiki]

Yeah, clicking that button that says "Show me the files in this folder." sure is hard.

Ok, it sounds like you're being sarcastic and trying to knock Windows for taking control from users.. but in Linux you have to switch to root to modify anything in \, so Linux takes a lot more control from the average user. Or were you trying to make fun of the fact that they don't take enough control from the average user? Because if so, you did a very poor job of it.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Illserve]

I think "liking" an OS is a bit of an odd concept

It only seems odd to you because you've gotten so used to not liking your OS that you've been forced to stop worrying about it.

But to those of using computers that actually help us do what we need, rather than getting in the way, "liking" an OS doesn't seem odd at all.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[kotj.mf]

Hear hear.

I'm working on my BS in IT (pun intended), but I've been a Linux user and/or admin for going on six years. Though I've been using one distro or another as my primary desktop for maybe 95% of that time, I've got no special disdain for the Windows users I have to support at work. We're platform neutral as much as possible. I learned to be an administrator by playing around with Linux (and to some degree, Solaris); that's what I'm most comfortable with, but I like to use the right tool for the job.

Anyway, I've got to take an Active Directory class this quarter. The instructor is a university admin with 10+ years of NT administration experience under his belt. He's a nice enough guy on an interpersonal level, but the level of absolute LOATHING that he's got for ANY non-Microsoft platform is kinda disturbing.

He's spent literally 1/3 of the first two classes trash-talking open source and *nix and doing fist-pumping, chest-thumping tributes to Redmond. Some of it has a basis in reality (eg, I doubt I'd necessarily wanna use Samba as my PDC with 60,000 users), but most of it is 10 year old aphorisms and bullshit TCO numbers that he made up five minutes earlier. The remainder is just insanity. For example, he claimed that Apache can't do virtual domains.

I don't know if that's typical in the Windows world or what - it's the first time I've run in to it, but I've never had to deal with many MS-types. Maybe I've been coddled by getting my career started at a small company full of *nix zealots and bosses who trust me to make the right decisions.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[xdroop]

Why Windows?

- hibernate works.
- sleep works.
- laptop undock works.
- wireless automatic network connection/disconnection/hunting works.
- windows automatically searches for new network parameters when waking up on a foreign network.
- changing display resolution doesn't require a logout/login.
- my iPod works.
- I can read the unfixated CDRs that my Sony camera produces.
- I can use IE to view those few sites/use those web apps that require it and use firefox for everything else.

The only thing that really bothers me about Windows is the user interface. There isn't much in the way of software that I use on Linux/Solaris that I can't also run on Windows; but the list of stuff that works on Windows that doesn't work on Linux is much longer. Maybe not for ever, but for today anyways.

All that said, I use Solaris/Linux and SunRays at home. But for work, Windows is it.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

Bravo! Thank you for sharing.

There are good things about Windows. There are good things about OS X, and GNU/Linux. I personally prefer the Unix way of doing shell commands, and prefer the OS X GUI, so I use Apples at home. I use Windows at work. I don't enjoy the base system as much, but it's pretty solid and generally works well. (I'm not a pure Unix fan, either -- I started on Apple IIs mainly, then moved to Amiga, then to WinNT/98, then to GNU/Linux, then to Macs. Even dabbled in OS/400 a bit. All of these systems have good points.)

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Pichu0102]

I agree with you on most comments. MS Office is nice, but... well... Openoffice is free. Also, Mozilla Firefox feels very natural on Windows, and a home server I run with another side laptop running Microsoft Windows XP and Abyss Web Server is incredibly stable. And even if it does crash, it reboots automatically, so I don't have to go over and reboot it manually. That's a nice thing.
I've tried Linux before, and I think it's nice. I'd consider switching, but I like how I'm able to easily configure Windows to do what I want it to do, and Windows feels much more natural to me. Overall, the Windows Operating System is of great quality, but some of it's components are not.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[cortana]

edit -> preferences -> behaviour -> always open in browser windows

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Kiashien]

I like that windows runs games.

I like that Windows has MS Dev Studio.

Do I like Windows itself? Eh.. I wouldn't call it like. It exists. It provides a basis for my tools and fun stuff to run on. I don't actually care about the OS much. If it runs reasonably efficently, I'm happy.

Yes, I know, Windows doesn't run efficently. But I grew up on Win95. Am I trying to migrate to Linux? Yep. Know what's slowing me? My existing games won't run out of the box. I don't even care about new games- my existing games won't run, so I won't switch. I can do pretty much all my normal stuff in linux. I just can't play a game at will. I have to bloody reboot back into Windows- and that stops me. Yea, I know about Cedega. Yea, I know about Wine. Yea, I know about virtual machines. Am I willing to go through the immense amount of work to be able to just play my game? Not really. I have limited free time. And I don't have a spare computer to keep running in case my attempts are less-than-perfect. Eventually, I will actually switch. It'll just take 10 years at this rate.

Or maybe someone will release a distro that comes with a year's licence of seamless Cedega integration, with support. And a sealed MSI-style install. And simple shortcut formation on the desktop. That'd be sweet. But unlikely for quote awhile.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[xtracto]

Nice, and now can you tell me how
"always open in browser windows"
is in some way similar to
"show the file system tree" or something?

It is like the MS Office "Configure Page" option under the "File" Menu (instead of the Format/Page that in this case OpenOffice got right :) )

Who the heck design those menues anyway?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[ZakuSage]

SuSE was hell for me the first time I used it to install stuff. I didn't know how to use the command line, so everything I installed was through YaST, which is slow as fuck on my computer, and kept giving me warnings that I was missing python libraries that I couldn't seem to find. Then I got into using the command line and everything was good, then I started using Debian and everything was excellent with apt.

Now, I know you said you know about Yum and Apt and don't think your brother would like them, but frontends to apt like Synaptic are incredibly easy, so much so that I've gotten a few people installing Debian Linux (or Ubuntu in some cases since it's easier) just for Synaptic.

For the record, I really dislike installing programs on Windows after being spoiled with Apt/Synaptic. It's not just click and install, it's open a wed browser, google what you're looking for, go to the site, download it (which often has a low bit-rate because of slow servers), then click and install something that more often than not will expire in a week.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[ZakuSage]

Gaming is something that Linux does lack. It's a good thing that consoles are so popular, though, since one could just use a PS2/Xbox/GCN whenever they need their fix of gaming.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[shic]

I feel as if I put-up with both Windows and POSIX systems. I try to use the best one for the job at hand. When it comes to user interfaces the big benefit with POSIX is X-Windows' capacity to run remote applications as if they were local - however that benefit is eroded by improvements in PC hardware and the existence of the Cygwin X server for Windows. When it comes to data entry, having extensively used several X-based environments as well as Windows, I have concluded that I can edit text documents more easily with the Windows approach for cut-and-paste.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[geomon]

Believe me, you are preaching to the choir on apt and yum. I haven't tried Synaptic, but I will give it a shot.

The problem for my brother is that first install hurdle. Everything in the world could go right (I've even installed Linux on one of his spare workstations), but he is still stuck at not being able to shift from Windows to something - anything - else.

I think that is probably true for a large number of Windows users. I don't find that particularly troubling as I get plenty of business fixing broken Windows boxes.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Davito]

One of my most prominent problems with switching to a different OS (from Windows I mean) is the compatability. I am a gamer at heart, and most are made for Windows, but I just get so pissed off at the OS sometimes that I really can't use it for anything else. I (partially) solved this problem by just making a partition on my 160 GB harddrive and installing SuSe on the partition. My computer was too mutch of a beast to just have winders running on it, so now I can actually do "professional" type stuff on it.

I do agree with the familiarity issue though. I've been using windows since I was three years old, so switching to Linux has been a little confusing, but since getting used to it, I really see why so many people preffer it to Microsoft stuff. The installing part though, I still can't get over that... :-) -Davito

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[swillden]

Why Windows?

Note that I'm not trying to convince you to use Linux, but I do want to correct some things:

- hibernate works.

Works fine on most laptops running Linux as well, though if you want to use the BIOS-driven hibernation, you may have to create the hibernate file from Windows. Personally, I really like the new Linux software suspend, in which the Linux kernel does the hibernation. It's faster and more flexible (including working on machines that don't have hibernation support). It's not, at present, easy to set up, though.

- sleep works.

Interestingly, in my experience, this actually works *better* with Linux than with Windows. My colleagues running Windows don't use sleep mode much, because our machines (various Thinkpad T40 series laptops) sometimes don't wake up. So they all shut down their OS. With Linux, I just close the lid, and have done so with several generations of laptops.

- laptop undock works.

Having never seen the point of docking stations, I can't comment here.

- wireless automatic network connection/disconnection/hunting works.

I think there are tools that solve this, but I can't really comment because I just use the command-line tools and script things to work the way I want them to. You may have a point here, I'm not sure.

- windows automatically searches for new network parameters when waking up on a foreign network.

You mean like DCHP? So does Linux. Actually, there are some nifty tools on Linux that will attempt to guess how to configure the network interface even when DHCP doesn't work.

- changing display resolution doesn't require a logout/login.

Doesn't on Linux any more, either. Changing color depth still does, though.

- my iPod works.

I don't have an iPod, but this claims to work on Linux.

- I can read the unfixated CDRs that my Sony camera produces.

I don't have a camera that does that, so I can't really comment. That said, I would be very, very surprised if Linux couldn't deal with that as well.

- I can use IE to view those few sites/use those web apps that require it and use firefox for everything else.

Yeah, those sites suck. I run IE under WINE on my Linux box to deal with that. Works fine, even though I mutter through my teeth every time I'm forced to do it.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like windows because it is supported by 'all' the applications that I run, without an emulator. I think the point that is missed amongst this group :-) is that MOST people don't know whether or not they want Media player or outlook express, or if they need support for tcp/ip or if they even need a computer so much as they need a 'human-to-internet' interface that includes a mouse and a button pecking device to type with. They don't want to evaluate which drivers their monitors require or which app plays cds, they want the computer to play music when they double click a music file (When I click the movie file you sent me it doesn't open, can you fix my PC for me?) and when they click the internet button, they want the internet to load up, just like at thier friends house! (since the internet is a thing, and not just a clump of interconnected computers). 'Computer Users' aren't forcing MS to stop bundling free software, thier competitors are.

Not arguing who's right or wrong ... and I am just as annoyed as every other 'computer literate' who has to have MSN/Outlook Exp/IE installed even thou I hate and never use them. But the software I use to earn my living is only supported under windows, so what do I do?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Deviant]

This is a bit of a loaded question. It comes with the slant that everybody who uses Windows is either ignorant and/or unaware of the alternatives or are forced to against their will. I'll play the devil's advocate and answer it, anyway. Not only do I have an MCSE and as my job support/manage a MS Server 2003/XP enviornment but I also have pretty vast experience with Solaris (from my college CS and Helpdesk years), Linux and FreeBSD. I consider myself very technical and could use any of them for the right purpose. I use Windows XP at work and on a desktop replacement laptop that I own and I run Gentoo and SUSE SLES 9 on my desktop PC. Here are my thoughts...

Windows XP "just works" (tm). It took me all of 4-5 hours to get it installed and all of the software I use set up the way I want it to be on my laptop and then I Ghosted the image to an external USB2 HD I picked up for cheap. If I want to make a substantial change in my setup/software load I revert to that image and bring it up to date with the change and re-ghost to have handy for insurance. If I have any issues at all, or my hard drive fails, I just revert to that image and in about 15 minutes and am ready to go as if it was the first day of my Windows install with no further effort or problems. Suspend to memory and disk just works. The wireless networking just works. As a matter of fact all of my hardware and drivers and software just works. I can play all of the latest games like Half-Life 2, Doom III and WoW without issue. I not only can run Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop and alot of commercial software that I know inside and out and paid for but I can run pretty much any open source software that I like through a usually good Windows port or through VMWare at the same time. I keep a pretty minimalistic FreeBSD install in VMWare 5 on the laptop for those times that I yearn for a Unix tool or shell for one task or another. I have not, in the year and a half I have had the laptop, ever had a crash or issue that caused me problems with my XP install. I have had many issues with Gentoo over the last year and a half. I always figure out how to fix them and enjoy working through the problems but I find that I would rather run Unix through VMWare under Windows to use my Unix tools than to run Windows and it's apps (which I need) over a Unix base that I find to be less certain a platform as far as changes or knowing that it will work perfectly on any given day.

So, in short, I really like Windows XP and prefer it to any other operating system for my day to day computing. This especially true with laptops when it comes to power management and suspending - areas where Linux and even more so FreeBSD are lacking. Though, like the saying goes, it is the devil that I know and it is best for me to stick with it since I have invested my time and money in it and know well how to keep it stable, secure and working properly. I keep up with the OSS OSes to stay up to date with the industry and my options and feel that I am making an informed decision.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Taladar]

Strangely the only users still complaining about broken dependencies are the ones using one of the RPM-based distros. I wonder what reason that might have...

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[nine-times]

It's true that, to most people, Windows isn't a matter of preference. This should not be confused, however, with thinking that no one would prefer Windows.

What I mean is, most people I run into, most people don't know what an "operating system" is. They don't know what it is to use Windows vs. not using Windows. All they really know is, Macintoshes are weird/not normal. "Linux" is "that thing that computer guy talks about, but I don't understand what he's saying anyhow." If you actually install Linux for them, they can tell it's different from the Windows machine they're used to, but they don't understand what that means.

Ok, so when you're talking about OS preference, the only people you can ask are geeks. Geeks often don't like Microsoft to begin with. Asking, "Does anyone like Windows?" is about like asking, in a loud voice, "What do you think about deaf people?" The method of asking inherently selects an skewed sample.

Ok, so there are technical issues and interface issues as well, but I'm just pointed out that your question, especially being asked here on Slashdot, is bound to get slanted answers.

That being said, it seems to me that people who stick with OSX do so for aesthetic/interface reasons, people who stick with Linux do so out of technical/political considerations, and people who stick with Windows tend to do so because they feel stuck or are ignorant of the other options. But that's just how it seems to me (but that's from being in IT for several years and supporting friends/family).

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[sootman]

I've spent the last ten years working heavily with Macs and PCs--starting with Mac OS 7.5.5 and Win95. (My computer experience goes back to ATs, XTs, and Apple ][s, but I didn't start spending every day, all day with them until 1995.)

At first, I liked Windows a lot better. It was faster. You could turn off animations and sounds, and things like resizing or minimizing windows happened in the blink of an eye. Not to recycle the old troll but if you were copying a file it didn't matter if it was a foreground app or not--it didn't slow down like Mac OS did, which gave a high priority to the foreground process and cut everything else by about 75%. Alt-tab to switch apps. (Thanks for joining us, badly, OS 8!) Right-clicking in Photoshop 3 and Netscape 3 (and everywhere else) rocked. Keyboard shortcuts for managing windows--Mac OS always had copy, paste, print, etc., but Windows let you do things like alt-space+R/N/X to restore/minimize/maximize windows. Not to mention Windows-M (and later Windows-D) to hide everything and see the desktop. (Thanks for joining us seven years later, Exposé! And option-clicking on the Desktop or Finder doesn't count, because Finder windows stay open.) I liked being able to resize a window from any side. And a million other things.

OS X showed promise. I had been using Linux some and wanted TAR, SCP, CRON, and lots of other command-line goodies, which, while available for Windows, were never native. But 10.0 sucked rocks and had no apps. (But I put it to use as an Intranet server right away running a Perl-based calendar app, among other things.) 10.1 was better (at least, not slow as shit) but still didn't have many apps I needed. (Photoshop, Quark, and others.) 10.2 was the first real usable OS X and by then there were tons of good commercial, shareware, and free apps out. However, I was very comfortable in W2K (super-stable, and the software for my ATI capture card finally worked) so it was a draw.

But 10.3 is very nice. And XP sucks. ("Your wireless network is here! Want to join it? Oops, it's gone! Now it's back! Want to join it? Oh, and your LAN cable is unplugged." --No shit, dumbass, I'm using WIRELESS!!!!! Or trying to, at least.) So I've turned completely around. In the last 3 years OS X has gotten great and Windows has gotten horrible. Plus Mac hardware is much, much more affordable than it used to be, and better designed than ever before, and has lots of great little features--they don't need crossover cables, they have target disk mode, etc etc etc.

So: four years ago I would have said "I like Windows a lot because it's fast and tight" but now my answer is "I like OS X 'cause it has lots of cool stuff and XP is like an albatross around my neck." And yes, I really did *like* Windows--back when it didn't get in your way and treat you like a first-grader.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[tjr]

This is a bit of a loaded question. It comes with the slant that everybody who uses Windows is either ignorant and/or unaware of the alternatives or are forced to against their will.

Wasn't meant as a loaded question, nor with such a slant. There likely are people who fit the description you suggested, but what I was really after were people who choose to use Windows because they explicitly like it more than alternatives. Based on responses such far, such people do exist.

I have absolutely no objections to someone prefering Windows over other OSes... I was just curious as to what made them come to that preference. What features of Windows do they like or enjoy over what's available in other operating systems?... etc.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[cortana]

The way you complained about every directory opening in a different window implied that you wanted to use the KDE/Windows style browser interface, where you get one window that acts like a web browser, browsing through the directories you double click. GNOME's default is the 'spacial' interface that acts like the classic Mac OS.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[ThePlague]

Linux users are much more forgiving of their OS than windows, or windows users are of windows. How many times have we heard how great linux works on a new/re-imaged box, only to have it eventually admitted that the sound card doesn't work (yet)? Or the graphics card doesn't have full functionality? Or...etc. Ok, maybe not as much now as in years gone by, but that tendency is still there.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Politburo]

Having never seen the point of docking stations, I can't comment here.

Are you high? A caveman can see the point of a docking station. It's a simple concept: when in the office, dock the laptop and use a traditional monitor, keyboard, mouse, usb, network, speakers -- anything. No hooking up a hundred different cables each time you come into work: just drop it in the dock. When it's time to go on-site, pop off the dock and go.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen, KFG. I use Windows as a gaming platform as well, especially since I game on rather "dated" hardware by ummmm... "industry standards" I guess. Thus my hardware can't really handle the performance hit I'm gonna get in WINE (no matter how good it is, since it's a re-working of the Windows API from scratch it's just not ever going to perform as well as the real thing on old hardware for some games).

In fact I'm so greedy about getting the most out of my old hardware that most of my games are run with a batch file that does /taskill on a number of processes, including Explorer.exe (why the hell does my desktop, taskbar, etc need to be taking up 20mb+ of memory while running a game?) and other non-essential processes (which vary from game to game).

Using this trick I can run World of Warcraft (yeah yeah, I know you personally have an issue with subscription games, but it's my vice and I'll have it thank you heheh) on my "ancient" system by WoW's standards. I always find it amusing in a game like WoW where players complain about "lag" and attempt to shift the blame on Blizzard or the Internet Gods, or something, when really a better configured computer would reduce half the "lag" issues.

I loved AOE... But did you ever play Total Annihilation? For being such an old RTS it was way ahead of its time, in many ways. Very 3D terrain, a million units... Sometimes you could wage half the battle from the minimap, with super longed ranged cannons that would lob shells across the map...

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[bill_kress]

I don't like windows a whole lot, but it does quite a few things that Linux can't come close to.

Sharing the same set of libraries across all applicaitons. If you upgrade a single DLL, it fixes all the apps that use that library. Also breaks them sometimes.

Allows applicaitons to integrate at a very close level without knowing anything about each other at build time (most importantly, imbedding an app inside word so that it's display becomes part of your document, and the data is actually saved in your document file)

The main thing about windows is that it's not Unix. Unix developers are, in general, bad at interfaces. Period. Every time I work with an app where the develoeprs came from a unix background, I'm unhappy with it.

This doesn't mean I hate every open source app, but the concept that command lines are okay or necessary, that you need to give every option to the user, that you need to allow serious configurability, all falicies.

Apple developers go too far in the other directon.

Windows is a fair balance actually.

So I suppose what I like about windows is windows developers. Got a problem with that?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[bluGill]

I'm not in love. FreeBSD works the way I want my computer to work, so that is what I use. I was never required to use any version of Microsoft Windows for my daily use, so I never learned. When I go to windows I'm cramped because I can't get focus follow mouse, and other quirks about Unix that are different. (Not necessarily better or worse, but different)

Back in the mid 90s I liked that my computer didn't crash, and was more secure. I'm honest about it though, today Windows is just as good in those areas. However it doesn't work the way I want my computers to work, and since there is no pressing need to switch (and it would cost money if I did), I don't.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Zemrec]

I, for one, use the Windows Classic theme solely because the Luna theme looks like a PlaySkool interface with its awful color-set and huge title bars and buttons.

And, while I've tried skinning Windows with various programs, I like to keep my machine lean as I use it mainly for for games and don't want odd crashes and system resources being used up for no good reason.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[orasio]

Your comment sounds very naive (or trollish FUD, more likely).


Sharing the same set of libraries across all applicaitons. If you upgrade a single DLL, it fixes all the apps that use that library. Also breaks them sometimes.


Hm....
Not true. On GNU/Linux, there are shared libraries that are actually shared, and you can have different generations of the same library. You can't do that wih DLLs


Allows applicaitons to integrate at a very close level without knowing anything about each other at build time (most importantly, imbedding an app inside word so that it's display becomes part of your document, and the data is actually saved in your document file)


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Ole/ActiveX/XXX , you say? well, they didn't manage to implement that in a secure way.
And it forces you to install fat clients everywhere you view the document. It's a maintenance nightmare. It just doesn't scale. It looks nice, though.


The main thing about windows is that it's not Unix. Unix developers are, in general, bad at interfaces. Period. Every time I work with an app where the develoeprs came from a unix background, I'm unhappy with it.



Your personal experience might be unique, of course.
In my personal experience, everyone can code for MSWindows, and it shows.
Nero Burning ROM. All antivirus packages. Powerpoint. That's examples of flawed interfaces.
Ok/Cancel dialogs, don't get me started on those! How can a person I make a decision over a complex action, when the cnfirmation dialog says that an error has ocurred, and I have to choose "Yes", "No" or "Cancel".
And that _is_ your mswindows world.


This doesn't mean I hate every open source app, but the concept that command lines are okay or necessary, that you need to give every option to the user, that you need to allow serious configurability, all falicies.


Command line is not necessary, it's just useful and much easier for integration or bundling (it's a parallel to that OLE stuff) that lets you have se best backends with the GUI of your choice.


Apple developers go too far in the other directon.

Windows is a fair balance actually.

Windows is the worst of both worlds.
You have no command line, no "man", software doesn't work, no good selection of free software, you pay licenses, but on the other hand, your applications are too complex and badly designed.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Nightspirit]

Well, there goes my karma, but I do like windows XP. I'm not a MS fanboy (my main browser is Opera), but honestly with XP I never have any issues.

That, and I believe MS is the only OS that supports the Tablet PC.

I do wish it was more secure, and that they were more adament about patches, and will admit that is a giant negative on their part. It would be nice to be like OS X without having to install antivirus or antispyware suits. The only other thing that bothers me is when a program is eating 100% CPU, it can take quite a bit to end the process.

On the positive side, I don't have much time, so program install and maintenance on XP is easy (I'm sure OS X is easy as well, but I don't want to pay the 2k mac OS fee). I plug everything in and it just works. I'm sure linux is making strides in this area, but I see posts on recompiling kernals, installation using command lines, and I just have nightmares going back to DOS days.

MS also releases free powertools to "upgrade" the OS, such as turning off those stupid baloon pop-ups, so the OS isn't as annoying as some of the linux crowd make it out to be.

Stability is a non-issue between OSes. I've had my MS box I use as a server up for over 300 days and counting.

My soundcard "M-audio" omnistudio only works on windows. Yes, this is "M-audio's" fault, but it is still significant that the application base on windows is vast compared to other OSes.

Also, I know where everything is in XP and how to do things without even thinking about it. People complain about the interface but for some reason it is just intuitive for me. I've tried linux (likely not as much as it deserves) and I can't just quickly get the hang of it.

My box is easily upgradable. This is a non-issue between linux, and perhaps apple when they switch to intel, but I can upgrade (ie replace everything but a couple components) my box at anytime to the near-latest specs without having to shell out more than $500.

I would like to spend more time to learn linux, and dual-boot OS X when they go to intel, but right now I just don't have the time.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[pete_norm]

I hate the way Ms Windows changed the presentation of the folders so when you open "my documents" you can not see the tree view, fortunately there is A BIG BUTTON called "FOLDERS" that lets you do that.

Make a new shortcut to replace "My documents". In the target write the following :

%windir%\explorer.exe /e,C:\Documents and Settings\YOUR_USERNAME

That should let you see the tree view by default.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

I like hardware Just Working(tm) more often than on linux (I havn't used a mac and can't compare) eg, plug a mouse in, have it move your cursor a second later. I like having full surround sound audio in any app I use, as many apps as I want to use at once (Rather than messing with seperate sound devices, esd which breaks mosts games, etc), and I like the software available (Flashfxp, vegas video, foobar2000, google desktop search, all the games I play) in addition to all the standard software I'd use on any platform (MPlayer, vim, firefox,etc)

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about it just works (not exactly, but moreso than any GNU/Linux distro I've played with, including Ubuntu)? It runs more games faster, supports new hardware (at least to the extent that retarded driver programmers at the hw co allow), plays my old codec videos smoothly (when Totem running on an A64 3000+ with 1 GB ram and ATI 9600 stutters on a 320x240 MPEG-2 video you have to start wondering), plays my WMV8 and 9 properly and reliably, runs my online tax return software etc.

It is not perfect. I bag it. But, I must say I prefer using it over Linux distros.
Just don't start on BSODs because I don't get any.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[CoolHnd30]

# It's stable. It has gone BSOD on me a few times, and that was because I had a bad HP print driver that was bringing it down. I never feel a need to reboot it because its "getting sluggish". The programs that crash on my PC most frequently are Mozilla Firefox followed by Microsoft Outlook. In fact, I prefer when Outlook Crashes. It just restarts and repairs itself and I pick up where I left off. When FF crashes, I usually lose 10-20 tabs that I was looking at and will never recover. #

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[edxwelch]

"hibernate works.

Works fine on most laptops running Linux as well" ... yes but hibernation isn't just for laptops, it's a great way to save your work space regardless of type of PC. I have tried to get this working for my desktop PC on Mandrake 10.1, without any luck. Maybe it's that the distributation switches it off autoamtically when it detects that it isn't a laptop.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[snilloc]

apt has its problems, especially if you stray to Debian testing or unstable.

I ran into a bizarre problem on my "testing" box where apt allowed something to install, but not run because of a dependency, which screwed up another update. After poking around on the Debian bboards for a while I learned that I had to add "stable" back into apt, downgrade a particular package, upgrade the kernel by a point-release, and re-upgrade everything. For a while I was also thrown off by the fact that (due to added support for HURD) the kernel image packages are not called "kernel-image" anymore, but "linux-image". Not insurmountable, but not a piece of cake either.

I would imagine that if you stuck with "stable", you'd be OK, but then you'd be stuck with ancient packages for a while.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[colinrichardday]

You can navigate without a mouse by using AccessX.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I like windows. They let light into my room.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[kfg]

I use Windows as a gaming platform as well, especially since I game on rather "dated" hardware by ummmm... "industry standards"

My "hot" system is an Athlon 900 with a V5 video card. It suffices and it's paid for. My "low end" system is a Tandy Color Micro. I still use it as a Breakout console, just for shits and giggles. In the middle I've got a couple of 486s and older Macs for specialized tasks. It really doesn't require a lot of computer to run vi at the console.

. . .most of my games are run with a batch file that does /taskill on a number of processes. . .

I get lazy on Windows and just use EndItAll v.1

I know you personally have an issue with subscription games. . .

Well, I don't see myself subscribing to one, but I don't really have an issue with subscription games, per se. Rather with the forced use of company servers when this has nothing to do with the playability of the game, whether for subscription or not. However, if a company is going to adopt the razor business model I do think they should be as free with the "razors" as the razor people are. I just got a lovely Quad, unsolicted, in the mail (not that I'm ever actually going to buy blades for it). I've recieved my share of AOL disks too (not that I'd ever subscribe). That's the way Evercrack disks should arrive. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay full retail for a razor and buy overpriced blades to "make up the loss" as well.

KFG

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

RHN is far superior to windows update. Windows update gets patches and rhn can do this as well. RHN also can be used to install an OS on a workstation, or distribute applications across a multitude of workstations. RHN allows installing applications on single or multiple workstations form a web browser interface. Windows update has one interface, with one button: NEXT. And when did the option to install mozilla or open office appear in windows update?

It's faster. My 1.8ghz Celeron laptop with 192MB of ram runs Windows 100x better than Linux. Fedora Core takes significantly longer to start up and feels more sluggish when running applications (I use gnome, the FC default environment).

You leave the fact out that the OS gives a warning mesage about having less ram than a gameboy. Improperly configured systems is not the fault of the OS.

ifup eth0

far quicker than any gui in windows or GNOME's window manager.

P.S. Linux is not an OS.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[swillden]

Does it work with Windows? Most desktops don't have support for hibernation.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[swillden]

when in the office, dock the laptop and use a traditional monitor, keyboard, mouse, usb, network, speakers -- anything.

I suppose. I prefer to have a desktop machine.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[A-man]

When FF crashes, I usually lose 10-20 tabs that I was looking at and will never recover.

Of course, you could dig through your history to find those sites. But better yet, install the SessionSaver extension—after a crash (or quit), you'll get back all of your windows, tabs and sites. I originally switched to FF because I was tired of IE crashing on me, and IE has no such capability.

I tried using OpenOffice once, and it was just as good. But the Mail Merge interface sucked, and that was an important feature for me.

I too have annoyances from OpenOffice—like why on earth can't I drag and drop a column or row to insert it elsewhere (holding down shift does this in Excel)? That said, it's useful to keep around as an MS Office document repair tool. I've run across many Word and Excel files that MS Office can't open at all (or open without crashing), and yet OOo can open them with no problem.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's stable. It has gone BSOD on me a few times, and that was because I had a bad HP print driver that was bringing it down. I never feel a need to reboot it because its "getting sluggish". The programs that crash on my PC most frequently are Mozilla Firefox followed by Microsoft Outlook. In fact, I prefer when Outlook Crashes. It just restarts and repairs itself and I pick up where I left off. When FF crashes, I usually lose 10-20 tabs that I was looking at and will never recover.

There's an interesting solution for the Firefox problem: download the firefox Session Saver extension. when firefox crashes, the extension brings it back up with whatever it remembers the session cache as. There's also an option of always doing this, so you'll never really have a "home page", just a "last visited page".

The software is good. Despite /. popular opinion, MS Office is good software. I tried using OpenOffice once, and it was just as good. But the Mail Merge interface sucked, and that was an important feature for me.

It all depends on philosophy. Personally, I use vi and TeX for word processing, PyGame for presentations, and SQLite for both spreadsheet and lightweight database functionality. I might suggest, though, that if MS actually adopts the OpenDocument format, Mail Merge will become an XSLT frontend. Can't wait for that.

It's faster. My 1.8ghz Celeron laptop with 192MB of ram runs Windows 100x better than Linux. Fedora Core takes significantly longer to start up and feels more sluggish when running applications (I use gnome, the FC default environment).

Anything is faster than Gnome. Also, 2.6.X linux distros use hotplug and udev, which take quite a while to generate. It's the equivalent of doing an initial driver requirements scan in windows every time you start your computer. There's an advantage to it when using LiveCDs, but I wish the information could be cached instead.

Easier to install applications. I think that's a given. Linux needs a better package installation system, period. Yum and apt are good, but they don't hold a candle. Windows' automatic updates are far superior to RHN

Autopackages and its gui frontends make a very good update system, but haven't garnered wide adoption. Don't judge linux in general by Redhat's solutions. Redhat, I think, provides a weaker automatic update system because the thought of "automatic updates" on an enterprise server make any admin cringe. Now, if you're talking about enterprise update deployment, I'd agree.

Configuration Utilities. They're just better in Windows. Period. The closest that I've ever had to get to a command line for Windows Administration is the "ipconfig" utility. Windows doesn't have nasty configuration files. I've only HAD to enter the registry to fix something (which is nasty) once.

Even when there is a GUI configuration tool in Linux, I have a hard time finding it in FC. There are at least two different interfaces to configure network adapters, but only one of those two interfaces can start/stop the network card. It just doesn't make sense.

Again, don't judge all Linux by Redhat/Fedora's solutions. Besides, what about configuration files is "nasty"? That they're more standardized than Windows? That they're ASCII text that can be read and edited by any text-processing utility? Compare rsyncing those config files with Group Policy; they're about equal.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[bcmm]

Many good points, but:

Fedora is slow for a Linux system, my system is now 3-5 times faster at most things than when it was running Fedora.

Linux needs better package installation? Windows doesn't even have a package manager for installation!

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Dan_Bercell]

I like windows (NT systesm Windows 9x systems really suck and were not stable enough for the Internet age we are currently in). I love the fact that Windows Media player works, I love how 95% of the software I see on the Internet is for Windows, I love the fact that 99% of the software I need to either purchase myself or recommend for a client works on Windows, I love the fact that its simple to setup and use, I love the fact that its pretty much a standard, someone calls me with a questions about an application, I dont even have to ask which OS they are using.

Because I support (and other co-workers) so many different clients in various businesses, it would be a nightmare to support 10+ different OS's not to mention trying to the amount of training, sellingh and just plain long nights I would have to do to support Windows NT systems, 5 different Linux distros, and MACs...

For us, its simple.

Windows is simple, dependable most applications out there are built for it.

MACs are just too expensive and gay looking

Linux would be a nice alternative, but there are too many distrobutions and changes taking place, perhaps in a few years when a company (hopefully not RedHat) can market it properly and sell to OEMs.

Since we dont deal with POS clones, until an OEM starts selling Linux 'properly', my love for Windows will stay.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do (for desktop use only). You know why?

1. Consistent look&feel for common UI elements such as file open/save dialogs. Under Linux the 4 apps I use most often (XMMS, Firefox, OpenOffice, MPlayer) use 4 different styles for these dialogs. Under Windows (replace XMMS with WinAMP) they use 1 style. The same applies even to simple things like buttons. Under Linux 1/3 of the apps I use are based on QT, 1/3 are based on GTK and 1/3 are based on other toolkits or even no toolkit at all. So they have totally different look and feel. I've also had very annoying problems with running GTK apps under KDE with certain settings and color schemes. QT apps ran fine, but in GTK apps menus were invisible (text and backgroung were both in the same color). Same with font settings and so on. What's the point of having 2 major toolkits since none of them is substantially better at anything technical than the other? Now that Apache and Squid have been the clear N.1 in the OSS world in their categories for quite some time ... did anything bad happen with them or their users?

2. If an ISV wants to distribute its product in binary form, they can provide a single package that will install successfully and work on 99% of the Windows machines worldwide, incl. mine. Even if the app is sophisticated and needs to integrate with other parts of the OS. How much time and effort would it take to create a package that will install and work on 99% of Linux machines worldwide?

3. Same as 2, but for IHVs and hardware drivers. A pair if an .inf file and a .sys file will usually work for every version of Windows since 1998. In Linux a particular binary driver works well only for a particular kernel image.
Why do I care about that? Well, let's see what drivers can I download for that new RAID controller from the manufacturer's web site. They don't provide any source - (I guess MS, SCO, the masons and the jews combined to pay them for that ;P). They provide 4 drivers for Windows - for NT, 2000, XP and 2003. That's fine - probably 99% of the Windows machines that have a RAID controller run one of these OSes. There are 3 Linux drivers as well ... for RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0 and RedHat 9.0. WTF?

To sum up 2 and 3 - Windows as a development platform is equally friendly to open and closed-source, while Linux is particularly unfriendly to closed source. And there are certain areas where closed-source is actually necessary, such as hardware drivers and software oriented towards particular vertical markets.

I can go on, but that's enough as start I geass ...

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[drsmithy]

And it's not just because I'm an MS fanboy either. It's a good operating system.

Let me add something else many people probably don't bump into - non-trivial multi-monitor use.

My work machine has 4 screens attached, with 3 video cards (two heads off a dual-DVI nvidia card, two more off two no-name video cards). Grand total time to set them up in a usable configuration under Windows: 10 minutes (and that includes downloading drivers). After several *hours* of stuffing around, trial-and-erroring in xorg.conf under Linux, I had a setup that was usable, but missing out on many of the niceties found in Windows (like graphical tools for rearranging the screen positioning, resolution, etc). FC4's display configuration tool was worthless - it couldn't even figure out multiple screens were there, let alone configure them - and had a nasty tendency to overwrite my xorg.conf, blowing away the configuration I had worked hours to figure out.

(Heck, even just getting it up an running with a basic dual-head setup from a single nvidia card required manual installation of the nvidia driver and editing of xorg.conf - as does any customising of the monitor configuration).

Then a couple of weeks ago I installed some xorg updates. Now X won't even start (hangs the machine completely) with more than the nvidia driver loaded, so two of the four screens are useless under Linux. I tried troubleshooting for a few hours, but when it's so much trouble, and Linux offers zero advantages as a desktop platform, I simply can't be arsed *making* it work when Windows works perfectly out of the box.

This is about the 8th or 9th time (since ~1996) I've tried to get going with Linux on the desktop, and it's a familiar story. You can sorta-maybe get a usable setup - maybe even feature-parity with Windows, Mac or OS/2 - if what you want is basic and "just like everyone else", but step off the beaten track even a little bit and you're in for a world of hurt digging into config files, poor documentation and mailing-lists for guidance.

I admin several dozen Linux servers, and have been a Solaris/*BSD/Linux/Windows/Mac sysadmin for many years. Linux does a reasonable job on the server-side, but as a desktop ? No bloody way.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[JoshDanziger]

Fedora is slow for a Linux system, my system is now 3-5 times faster at most things than when it was running Fedora.

Then please share? What distro are you using that's so much faster?

Linux needs better package installation? Windows doesn't even have a package manager for installation!

Wasn't MSI supposed to be a package manager of sorts? That said, I know that its pretty unwieldy. However, even without a package manager, when's the last time that you had a windows program that just wouldn't install? I've never had a problem getting software installed that a simple uninstall/reinstall didn't miss. I do understand that there are fundamental problems with that (for example, installing software in different order can result in different libraries being loaded, etc), but in general I find that most commercial software does a good job with a simple .EXE file.

It's also easier to actually write an installer .exe file in Windows because just about every system has the same general layout! Linux, on the other hand, may have different library locations depending on the distro..

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[JoshDanziger]

When FF crashes, I usually lose 10-20 tabs that I was looking at and will never recover.

Awesome. Thanks!

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[drsmithy]

Anyone here actually like Windows? I'm not trolling, just want to know. If you do, what do you like about it?

It's easy, and it works consistently. I switched from OS/2 to NT4 at the beginning of 1996 and haven't looked back. I frequently and regularly use other platforms (I'm a Solaris/*BSD/Linux/Windows sysadmin by trade, and I own several Macs), but Windows is my platform of choice for actually getting work done.

I quite like OS X as well, except that you need to buy a monster machine to run it with anything approaching decent performance, thus requiring very expensive hardware - and even then, it's still chunky compared to Windows on hardware with only about half the performance.

I've struggled several times to try and start using Linux as a desktop, but each time I give up because I fail to discern any payoff for the massive amount of effort required to make it work. When I was a kid I used to enjoy playing around with computers just for the sake of it. Now I just want them to work. Desktop Linux is good for the former, bad for the latter.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Lucractius]

Im rather happy with my ACPM S3 Suspend on my "desktop"... so whats this crud bout hybernation not being on desktops huh?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Lucractius]

Speaking of sucky OO.org interfaces. Am i the only one that thinks the way it handles PowerPoint presentations in the default on Linux, Blindinly backwards. werid little tabs and no ability to "scroll" through the presentation with something as simple as a mouse wheel...???

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Silverlancer]

Our school linux lab runs Debian. There is zero speed difference between the 2.4Ghz Compaq machines and the 400mhz Celeron machines unless running 3D applications. They both do everything basically instantly. They log on within half a second to a fully working screen when using Fluxbox. In another lab, we have the same 400mhz Celeron machines running a stripped down version of XP. They take over 3 minutes to log in, and are sluggish as hell.

Just because Fedora Core and Gnome are bloated and slow, does not mean linux is bloated and slow.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Lucractius]

Im always finding these things out later on.

WHAT THE HELL ARE THE KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS

My main machine, (call me a geek i dont care) is located right at the end of my bed, I literaly use it lying down or crosslegged on my bed. Now the average Keyboard and mouse (plus a solid surface for the mouse* take up the end of the bed and ive even switched to a mushy as hell media keyboard, purely so i can make use of a more "useable" (for my situation) keyboard, the media keys speed up my work, they mean i can deal with a program without changing focus with alt tab or mooving my whole arm (as you do when your lying down) to get to the mouse. So ive noticed whenever i wander over one of these reffernces to the windows Keyboard shortcuts... i almost always happily smack my fingers down on the keyboard and try em out and sit there with a little smile. Wow. One less thing i need the mouse for.

Id like to damn well find a COMPLETE set of the blasted things for XP, without having to dig or trawl. ANyone know it/got a link/have one?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Gactaculon]

I really don't know what it is that makes Fedora so goddamn lethargic, but there are definitely faster distros out there. Ubuntu is still on the "heavy" side, but does better for me on things like boot time, time-to-desktop, and overall responsiveness on memory-limited machines. Gentoo, properly done, is excellent. However, it's Gentoo.

I'm currently becoming quite partial to Arch, a binary distro that offers excellent customizability and speed in a much friendlier package. Like Gentoo, it is mostly non-automatic as far as hardware setup is concerned, and so is recommended for experienced users. The major weakness right now is a lack of diversity in packages, but most of the cool, fairly mainstream stuff you'll want to be using is included, and packages are of high quality. It's worth a look.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have hw suppport for it... Windows 2000 & XP do not need hw support to hibernate. You can find and enable hibernation under Power Management.

I hate Windoze & I use Linux... but I know Windoze very well.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[Hymer]

Well...

1. A printer driver shouldn't be able to BSOD a system... should it ?
   
2. Most good software for Windows is too expensive...
   
3. No it is not. Windows only emulates a fast boot... you may get a "Windows has not completed the boot process" error if you login as soon as the login screen appears.
   
4. Say what ??
   
5. Aha... no you are righ... Windows has the most beautiful registry... a very organized and well documented place where nothing can go wrong...
   

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[rtechie]

I like Windows. I could use OS X, I could use some variety of Linux, but I prefer using Windows on my desktop and for some server tasks.

Why?

1) Accusations of instability regarding Windows are largely unfounded.

I've personally found WinXP to be considerably more stable than most Linux distributions I've tried. I seem to run into conflicting dependencies and apps the freeze X all the damn time. Many recent Linux distributions wouldn't even install on my home rig.

2) The interface is as good as I want it to be.

Yeah I got WindowBlinds. I can do all kinds of skins and alternative desktops, but I've adapted to the bells and whistles of Windows and I don't see the need to adapt to new bells and whistles. I've used MacOSX and while I think, on balance, I like the interface better I don't like it better ENOUGH to adjust to the changes. (I also basically don't like the Apple hardware.)

3) Windows has a greater variety of software than any other platform

If I want a highly specialized app for some purpose there's almost always something out there for Windows. And I can be reasonably certain it will be be compatible with my system due to the very high compatibility of Windows apps and because of the standardized Windows interfaces I'll be able to figure out how to use it relatively quickly. This is true of Unix to a large extent, but only for COMMAND LINE apps. I love the command line as much as the next guy, I've used CP/M, I've used DOS, I've used SysV, I've moved on.

4) Exchange kicks ass.

Active Directory + Exchange + Outlook + IM stomps all over every other e-mail/groupware system. Lotus sucks, IMNSHO. This alone is enough of a reason to have Windows as part of your organization's lan. MSSQL is also an excellent database if you don't have to do too much heavy lifting, and Windows Media is an excelltent content distribution system.

5) I play computer games.

This should be self-explanatory.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[edxwelch]

Yes. I never seen a PC that where hibernation didn't work. Maybe you're thinking of sleep?

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows?

[bcmm]

Gentoo, though I think Debian is just as fast on normal hardware.

MSI. So what's the command or GUI to install Firefox or Openoffice or Quake 3 (if you have a license), without having to look around for an installer? MSI is only user-friendly for uninstallation. It's not what people call a "package manager". A package manager involves automated installation of different software with the same interface, and a centralised system of tracking installed software. Windows has the latter.

No Kidding

[ZiakII]

Back when i got my first computer 166 mhz I was using WordPad to type school reports and try getting that to double space you had to do it manually and dear god if you needed to add anything else to it.... on the side note most people computers already come loaded with software from their vendors (Dell, Hp, Gateway, etc) IANAL but can't these companies just grab some OSS software and put it on the machines?

Re:No Kidding

[game kid]

I guess they get some sort of incentives to put commercial (and, in my computer, some trial versions of commercial) software on PCs they sell. Maybe they'd get some marginal profit if I converted my trials from my PC. Every businessman and their mom loves getting a piece of profit from someone else's sales.

Then again, I don't work for Dell et al., so consider this a POMA* thought.

*Pulled-Out-My-Ass

Re:No Kidding

[ZiakII]

on a side thought I would think could also put Open Office on it to lower costs there going to put Windows on it we all know that but I would imagine they could lower their costs even more by taking off Microsoft Works and putting on Open Office instead.

Re:No Kidding

[Szaman2]

You would be surprised. I teach an introductory computer class, and every semester I have 2-3 people in the room who are actually shocked when I show them how Word 2003 can doublespace their papers for them. These poor souls have been doing it manually for most of their hig-school and college career.

This allways makes me wonder how did these people manage to get into the university? God only knows... But I guess you don't have to write allot of papers in Word when you are a Dance or Pys-Ed major :P

Last semester I brought my laptop with an older Debian install (now I have Kubuntu on it) to show them how Linux looks like. After the class girl actually approached get her computer look more like mine. She was especially impressed with virtual desktops, cute KDE theme (I think some variation on Plastic), gkrellm and the kooldock app (from kdelook.org). I gave her links to apps like StyleXP, ObjectDock, SeriousSamurize and VirtuaWin. And I also gave her a Knoppix CD and showed her how to boot it up.

She was impressed with all this stuff, but I have no clue what happened to her. I would like to think that I helped her to discover that there are things out there other than windows. Maybe, just maybe, she grew up to be a linux user... Probably not though. Most likely she ditched the Knoppix CD somewhere, and then figured that all these cool looking apps eat memory like there is no tomorrow and ditched them too :P

Virtuawin not necessary

[jshaped]

MS already has a power toy for multiple desktops.
I've been using it for awhile, it works pretty well.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/power toys/xppowertoys.mspx

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not work well at all.

I tried it once for about 2 days, it is a piece of crap.

Its (mis)features:

* hardcoded to 4 desktops
* No such thing as moving windows between desktops, or sticky windows, or remembering what app was on what desktop
* every office application I ran would lose its toolbar when switching between desktops.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[aurelian]

When I tried it I found it clunky and akward. Perhaps I missed something, but I don't recall being able to navigate left, right, up or down through the desktops, for example.

Seemed to me like it was written by someone who had heard a description of a VDM but never actually used one.

Nevertheless I think both cygwin and a VDM are essential to make Windows useable. I've been using a shareware one for a while, which sort of works.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Zach978]

I find that MS one to be pretty buggy. It will resize my windows everytime I switch desktops. It even creates a lot of little graphics bugs when I switch. Havne't tried Virtuawin, but I'm going to becuase of those issues.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[gstoddart]

MS already has a power toy for multiple desktops.
I've been using it for awhile, it works pretty well.

I use the windows power toys on my XP box at home. But the Windows app provides for exactly four desktops.

As someone who has 9 desktops hooked up to dual monitors at work, four is simply inadequate. I've got the screen real-estate equivelant to 18 screens, and most of the time, they're all full.

To those of us who have been using virtual desktops for 12+ years, they are a requirement to be able to use the machine.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Prophet of Nixon]

The one 'Power Toy' that puts small screenshots in the alt-tab menu (which sounds like a great idea) causes all sorts of graphics problems and grief. I was most disappointed with it, though I'd love to see it done right.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[BridgeBum]

I use virtawin on all of my windows machines, both work and personal. I've never had any negative issue with it. It's fantastic. Very customizeable, seemless integration, low memory footprint...what more could you ask for?

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

It works as well as a plastic bag works as a condom.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[MagicM]

I use XDESK. It's the only virtual-desktop app for Windows I could find that includes a Pager (preview of all desktops) and that maintains speed.

There's a "light" freeware version available.

Oh and the website is terrible. Be warned.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[aaamr]

I like Enable Virtual Desktop. Once you configured, it's unobtrusive, fast, and does everything I need.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Nixoloco]

Its not free but I really like goScreen. You can have a larger preview window that autohides with different background images for every desktop. http://www.goscreen.info/

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[jshaped]

hmmm... well, it looks like the overwhelming majority think this power toys blows.
(it is an MS product afterall).

it's worked fine for me,
but maybe this weeked i'll give virtuawin a try and see what i've been missing.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[MHobbit]

That MSPower Toy never worked on my computer. I use Virtual Dimension, and IMHO, it's better than VirtuaWin.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[tyldis]

Works really bad. Applications disappear or shift screens. A minimized app that pops up one of those 'ok'-boxes can't be reopened...
Gonna give this alternative a try.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[murfman5000]

The Virtual Desktop Manager from MS Powertoys was aweful. I had a number of issues. From what I can recollect it would re-order the items in my taskbar and it would randomly close IE and/or Windows explorer windows. I had at least 2 or 3 other issues with it which caused me to uninstall it only days afterwards.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Idyle software's DesksAtWill. I have been a happy customer for years on Win2K. I don't want to switch to XP to use the MS Powertoys virtual windows, and my primary machine is a Mac now.

Re:Virtuawin not necessary

[lahvak]

Who in the world moded that informative? The MS powertoys multiple desktop tool is incredibly bugy, and can't be compared to VirtuaWin. I used it for several months (it's still better than nothing) before discovering VirtuaWin, and I was cursing it several times a day.

I have only two minor problems with VirtuaWin. First, there doesn't seem to be a visual pager, like for example in Enlightement or FVWM. Second, every time I watch DVD on my laptop, the shortcut key I use for cycling desktops down (Ctrl-Alt-L) stops working. I have to logout and login again for it to start working. Shortcut for cycling desktops up (ctrl-alt-H) works fine. Luckily, I vary rarely watch DVD's on the laptop.

Cygwin and Emacs

[hal2814]

I've installed Cygwin and Emacs to my Windows install at work. I was looking for some sort of grep functionality a while back and decided Cygwin was the way to go since I also get a BASH shell and piping, too. I also installed emacs a long time ago. It's the Emacs for Windows, not the one for Cygwin. Both of those have increased my productivity tremendously without needed to install a full-blown Linux distro on the box.

Re:Cygwin and Emacs

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually there are several features of the command line in XP that people may not be aware of.

The first is findstr which does a fairly good job of filling in for grep. Available in Win2k as well.
example: netstat -an |findstr 2025

The second, in XP and above, is the tab key. Finally it is autocompleting on the command line.

Re:Cygwin and Emacs

[De Lemming]

The second, in XP and above, is the tab key. Finally it is autocompleting on the command line.

This functionality was already available in NT4 and Win2k, but was disabled by default (I never understood why). You have to change a registry key to enable it.

Re:Cygwin and Emacs

[eraserewind]

Cygwin is ok, but not great. It is fine if you want to emulate linux on windows, but it doesn't play nice with native applications. Native ports of the GNU stuff is better in almost all cases. Of course since cygwin is emulating linux it has a lot more software than there are proper native ports.

Transformation through OSS

[Ckwop]

Don't forget UnixTools, GVim, Password Safe, Paint .NET, Cruise Control, Subversion the list goes on to infinity.
This is a bitter-sweet pill. It's great that OSS is making the Windows platform so rich, it bad that it's creating inertia to change platform entirely.

I'd have switched to Linux a long time ago if the application stack for Windows hadn't been so greatly improved
by the army of budding OSS developers. Progress is being made though. I'll never use Microsoft Office again now that
I've fallen in love with Open Office 2.0.

It's no so much Open Office that made my mind up, it's the fact that we've got OpenDocument. OpenDocument is far more important that anyone really realises right now.
Why is it important? Well, I used to work for a company that wanted a web based way of doing sales quotes. The problem is that you need a nice document at the end where they can enter a bunch of text so that it feels tailored to that particular contract.

With Word this involved a bunch of mailmerging with the horrible Telemagic database with a bunch of Macros to create the document. With OpenDocument I can generate the base document itself from the database using any language of my choice. I can even add my own XML namespace so I can denote sections of the document that
were generated automatically and those that were added by the user.

The power of OpenDocument is not just in the ability to switch Office suites although that is obviously nice. It's in the ability for application developers to author and manipulate documents in powerful ways that simply aren't possible with macros or mail-merges.

OSS, through it's openness, is threatening to transform computing just like the PC transformed business. It's fucking awesome.

Simon.

Re:Transformation through OSS

[hal2814]

"It's great that OSS is making the Windows platform so rich, it bad that it's creating inertia to change platform entirely."

Then the platform is not worth changing. I use Windows at work an Linux on most of my home machines (minus the wife's computer and the TV box). I've got to say that from a stability perspective, there's not much different between the two anymore. (I'd still LOVE to have a kill -9 for Windows.) I prefer Linux. I use it at home. It just doesn't run all the apps I need it to for work (financial software for example is SEVERELY lacking). Windows is good enough that if I can get the OSS and free-as-in-beer apps along with it, that's fine by me. Apparently that's also fine with most other people.

Re:Transformation through OSS

[kiwimate]

(I'd still LOVE to have a kill -9 for Windows.)

kill -f using kill.exe from the resource kit?

Re:Transformation through OSS

[Dan512]

I'd still LOVE to have a kill -9 for Windows

Ever try PSKill?

Re:Transformation through OSS

[dpilot]

Except that by the time you've made the transition to OSS tools on Windows, and like how productive they've made you, there are now two extra facts to consider:

1: Those very same applications that you're used to are most likely available on Linux. (or *bsd)
2: Do you really want to take your money and use it to make Bill G, Steve B, et al richer and you poorer, next time Microsoft decides it's time for an upgrade?

Re:Transformation through OSS

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Then the platform is not worth changing.

Isn't it odd, though, that another platform has to better enough that a user must choose to change it to something else? If you buy a machine, with very few exceptions, it comes with Windows on it. This is because of probably illegal, predatory business practices. If the user was always given a choice at time of purchase to pick their OS, and then charged the full price for it and MS was not allowed to subsidize that cost with money they made by pre-installing that OS on other systems, which OS would emerge the winner? We will likely never know, since our legal system is so corrupt.

Basically, I don't disagree with your statement, but I think it is important to realize that does not mean Windows is better, or even as good, in general as other OS's.

My suggestions:

[Spy der Mann]

Media Player Classic (open source). Who needs WMP anyway? :)
IrfanView (freeware) for image browsing and very basic manipulation, like gamma correction or applying photoshop filters

Re:My suggestions:

[skryche]

Well put. These are two programs the average user would actually use. Cygwin? If I put that on my mom's computer, she'd probably hit me.

Re:My suggestions:

[BushCheney08]

I'm going to offer up my suggestion for an alternative to Media Player Classic, BSPlayer. The featureset of MPC is nice, but I've never been able to stand the interface (and yes, I thought the interface to WMP6 was horrible back in the day). BSPlayer has most, if not all, of the features of MPC, as well as some decent skins (I prefer the included Showtime skin myself).

Re:My suggestions:

[FinalCut]

I actually have IrvanView installed but have never launced it manually. I do however have a simple windows script that uses it to grab a random image from a directory, convert it, and make it my wallpaper - all hooked up to a hotkey sequence (win+w) so I can change my wallpaper on a whim without much effort.

I should probably put the script up on the web somewhere for others to use.

Re:My suggestions:

[fafaforza]

I'd probably hit you if you put it on my laptop. Anything but that ugly-ass Windows command line prompt. Ugh!

Re:My suggestions:

[ZX-3]

I second IrfanView. It's very fast, light, and you can turn off all chrome to save screen space. It is MUCH faster than the default "Windows Picture and Fax Viewer", and it won't resize your images for no reason.

Re:My suggestions:

[babyphatman]

I use this program to manage wallpapers.... it has great features including handling multiple monitors, custom calenders, etc.

Re:My suggestions:

[toddestan]

Cygwin? If I put that on my mom's computer, she'd probably hit me.

Well don't tell her it's there then! It's not like she's going to find out about it on her own.

Re:My suggestions:

[FinalCut]

i tried out a few wallpaper programs but I didn't like them staying resident and hogging memory. I also didn't really need any features other than random wallpaper selection. I can put it in my startup menu to get a random one on startup if i want. Or I can just quickly change my wallpaper with the hotkey.

I'll take a look at your recommendation. But in general I'm after the lightest weight solution as possible

Vista

[gcnaddict]

Well I guess we could wait til Windows Vista and get our share of card games (solitaire, hearts) which take up 80mb ram thanks to useless resources such as backgrounds

Lipstick on a pig

[kianu7]

Isn't this just putting lipstick on a pig? Why not just switch to a better OS that has all this stuff built in? There are plenty of interesting Linux distributions out there to try out.

Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

'The average Windows user tends to be less than satisfied with Windows. And that's no surprise, either, given the rather woeful state of its default applications.'

Not quite. The article has lots of great links and tools, but the majority of windows users are perfectly content. This is another great example of how someone's zealiot attitude ruin what could have been a great article.

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

the majority of windows users are perfectly content

The majority of Windows users don't know any better.

Hell, that's Microsoft's business model.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

I disagree. I'm a windows user and a Linux/BSD user. Overall, I prefer Windows for my daily work and play. But I use Linux and BSD in the places where they are strong (ie a FreeBSD firewall, and an old Lunux based file server that sits in a closet). I have my home machine set to dual boot Ubuntu, which overall I have to admit I was grossly underimpressed by. My Unix buddy keeps trying to talk me into loading up Mandriva, so maybe some day I'll give it a whirl. But by and large, Windows does everything I need to do, on all of my hardware, performs exceptable, and is very easy to work with (for end user concerns).

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The article has lots of great links and tools, but the majority of windows users are perfectly content.

Then why do family members keep calling me and asking how to fix their @#$#@! computers, or do some particular thing with their computer, or if their isn't a way to make it stop doing some particular annoying thing? I get calls from all the Windows using family members I am in contact with, and occasionally from my mother to ask why her mac won't turn on (after the third time you'd think she'd know that she has kicked the power cord out of the wall again). I don't see much contentment among computer users in general. Most people seem to find computers frustrating and difficult, but useful for certain tasks once they figure them out.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

Don't let the incompotent few skew your view. Your mother's incompotence would make her dislike any solution. Most of my family treats their computers like an applicance or vehicle. Most of the time, it works just as they need it to, but every once and a while it needs servicing. And just like any other appliance or vehicle, some preventative maintenance will save you a lot of other maintenance.

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[snitmo]

the majority of windows users are perfectly content

Really? How do you know?

Operating System Sucks-Rules-O-Meter
http://srom.zgp.org/

This may not be a scientifically reliable survey, but it shows a lot of people are unhappy. I would like to see good data to back your point.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Don't let the incompotent few skew your view.

Incompetent few? I hope you're joking. My family contains some brilliant and successful people. These people can solve complex math in their heads, build an entire house from scratch, repair automobiles, paint intricate pictures, perform DNA extractions, etc. They are not helpless idiots. They are average and above average people. Maybe you have been fooled by spending to much time among computer experts here on Slashdot. The truth is most computers are not very well designed, fixable, easily understood, reliable, or refined. We're in the Model-T phase of computers, they are being mass produced and widely distributed. They are better than the old way, but still not very good and everyone except experts expects them to break regularly. So many tasks that can and should be taken care of for the user are not done and many, many features that could improve reliability and safety are not implemented in general. Computers have a long way to go before being usable. I suspect we'd be a lot further along if their was real competition for desktop operating systems, but we don't and it has slowed advancement in the field to a crawl. There is no reason computers cannot do so much more, so much better than they do now. The frustration and problems computer users experience is a reflection of that.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

All that chart shows is that 130k Linux fans have visited that site. Which rules out the majority of computer users. Most computer users don't even know that site exists, and most of the people who know that site exists are not average users.

My proof is in the sales. If the majority of average computer users were not satified by Windows, then the they would turn to alternatives. True, MS has performed some admirable feets to make it harder to switch, but the majority of users are still running windows and upgrading to XP. Linux is growing in market share, but it still has a long way to go in useability to get to the point of XP. My guess is 2007. By 2007 Linux interfaces will have improved to the point where it is as useable if not more so then the comprable windows OS of the time (XP, or maybe Vista will be out by then). At that point I would say that Linux can outperform Windows for home and end user satisfaction.

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

"Incompetent few? I hope you're joking. My family contains some brilliant and successful people..."

You're the one who said you have to tell your mom to re-plug her computer in time after time. And even the most intelligent people can be completely incompotent in some facets of their lives. My wife can splice plant genes, rebuild an engine, and perform basic computer maintenance, but she can't follow logic code to save her life. There is tons of anecdotal evidence out there that will show sample after sample of peoples short comings, and some people just "don't get" computers and technology. Not much can be done for them no matter what OS they are on. Their computer could be a life sized Barney doll that holds their hands and sings output to them and they would still have problems.

"Maybe you have been fooled by spending to much time among computer experts here on Slashdot."

Now I know you are joking ;)

"The truth is most computers are not very well designed, fixable, easily understood, reliable, or refined. We're in the Model-T phase of computers, they are being mass produced and widely distributed. They are better than the old way, but still not very good and everyone except experts expects them to break regularly."

I disagree. I think we are in the late 60's/early 70's of cars erra for computers. Things are reletively simple, anyone with a highschool education can tear one apart, rebuild it, supe it up, tweek the OS and make a basic html web page. All it takes is the guts to do it. Just like building up a shoebox in the 70's. If we progress on the same path, support will become more and more speciallized to the point where a highschool education and a little curiocity won't get you though it.

"I suspect we'd be a lot further along if their was real competition for desktop operating systems, but we don't and it has slowed advancement in the field to a crawl."

I agree to an exent. OS advancement has hardly been at a snalls pace, but I do think the competition Linux brings to the table has and will continue to improve Windows and Mac. Just look at what FF has done for IE!

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

My bust, just realized that site pulls data from search engines. It is interesting that they use Altavista though.

Gogle

• "Linux Rules" - 60,300
• "Linux Sucks" - 67,800
• "Windows Rules" - 15,100
• "Windows Sucks" - 72,300

Altavista

• "Linux Rules" - 75,000
• "Linux Sucks" - 66,600
• "Windows Rules" - 3,840
• "Windows Sucks" - 122,000

Just another example of picking the best data to prove a point. Altavista shows the majority of Linux sites claiming Linux rules, and only 1 in 40 Windows sites claiming Windows rules. Where as google show the majority of Linux sites claim Linux sucks and 1 in 5 Windows sites claim windows Rules. If you assume there is 50% over lap (Linux Rules sites that claim Windows Sucks, and vica versa) you wind up with:

Gogle

• "Linux Rules" - 60,300
• "Linux Sucks" - 60,000
• "Windows Rules" - 15,100
• "Windows Sucks" - 42,300

True, it still portrays Windows in a poor light, not nearly to the skew that your link claims. And there's lots of other things that have effect on this, but in the end, it's just a whole lot of anecdotal evidence. And no matter how much we wish it were, large amounts of Anecdotal evidence is not data.

-Rick

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[geekee]

Read the Subject. Your one of them.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[Lucractius]

So how long till i can actualy make a living from being damn good with computers without yet having some kind of formal scrap of paper that proves ive worked my end off on something mabey remotely relevant to the area ill be working, in for 4 years. So sick of this qualifications crap. Since when does it do anything but annoy those with Real skill. ? you "just get" the stuff your good at. all these tests and assignments forcing you to get inside the box and think in there for a while then go back to normal and grumble bout your marks... pfff so fed up with it all. When they reach the level where the competent users are self evident and able to utilise that fact profitably then itll be good.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[Lucractius]

what i like is the fact that VMS rates so highly!

GO OpenVMS!!!!

haha and people call FreeBSD dead... if BSD's dead then VMS is the Undead Imortal Zombie King.

Re:Another delusional zealiot

[RingDev]

In short, never. With out a degree, you can get into some jobs though. After highschool I joined the Marine Corps and spent 3+ years developing military applications. Moved to the civilian world, picked up a few contracts, but it was tough running. When you put your resume in for a job, there are a lot of other people who do so also. One job I applied for (and later got) had 400+ resumes. I wouldn't have even been considered except that it was a state job and my military time bumped me up. When a HR person is flipping through 400 resumes to find 3 primary and 3 secondary interviews, they have to quickly weed out the list. And that means toss anyone with out a degree, and toss anyone with out experience (depending on pay scale, entry level positions will likely toss anyone with more experience). Their goal is to find a hand full of people that will fit the pay range and perform well. A college degree doesn't garuntee that you are great at something, but it does show you have the dedication and work ethics to make it through a few more years of school.

After 3 years of hit and miss contracts and part time gigs, I went back to school. And I must say, I've learned more there then I ever thought I would. And not all just technical, a lot of business sence and networking skills. For anyone in the South Central Wisconsin area, I would highly recommend Herzing's (http://www.herzing.edu/ Comp Sci and Graphic Design degrees. I can't speak for the other campuses, but the Madison site has some damn good teachers.

-Rick

I'm fine...

[utnow]

Notepad serves me just fine. Paint is crap. Wordpad works fine as well.

Windows gives alot of room for 3rd party developers to make money off of the lack of default applications. There's room for improvement and so people make those improvements and then are able to earn a living off of it. If the OS were to come with 4 copies of every imaginable type of software it would come on too many discs, be bloated, and leave no room for a developer to make money from their work. Yay linux! Reducing the software developer to a novelty act for decades.

Re:I'm fine...

[superpulpsicle]

The only software I give M$ full credit for doing a good job is MS streets and trips. Bug free, works fast and cheap! If all M$ software was this good, I would keep my mouth shut.

Re:I'm fine...

[MaskedSlacker]

Wait what? That doesn't make any sense. Applications in linux are all made by 3rd party developers. Its rare for any two seperate projects in the same distro (i use the term project rather than application since DEs like KDE or GNOME come packaged with many apps some of them worked on by the same people) to be made by the same people. Windows doesn't give any room for 3rd party developers to do anything--unless they pay out the nose for it. Linux on the other hand, you have all the dev tools and everything with the OS, for no extra charge (if you were even charged in th first place). That's not reducing the software developer, that empowering the software developer. MS, with its high barrier to entry for casual developers is what is reducing software development.

Re:I'm fine...

[Jonny_eh]

There's plenty of apps that you could write and make money from. How about a decent financial/accounting package? Or an 'enterprise class' autoCAD 'solution'?

Or maybe a commercial game? I don't think tuxracer made other games obsolete.

With Linux, you are only limited by YOUR creativity, which can be frightening.

Re:I'm fine...

[utnow]

How many peices of software have YOU bought for linux? none? Yes. Clearly the culture of linux, where everything is free, paves the way for easily sold 3rd party software. On the other hand... if I actually wanted to make a penny off of my work, I'd probably focus on writing code for the OS with the largest user-base, where people are accustomed to paying for software. Evil or not that OS is Windows (with OSX coming in a distant second). Trying to sell software for Linux is like trying to sell 1000hrs free AOL CDs.

Speed reading

[HangingChad]

Anyone besides me read that the first time through as Peeping Up Windows?

Re:Speed reading

[ZakuSage]

Yep. I thought Zonk had finally given up his tips for getting chicks.

Re:Speed reading

[evilviper]

Gee, that joke was HILARIOUS the first 500,000 times I heard it...

Another way to improve windows

[Anonymous Coward]

I wanted to improve Windows' FAT32 file system, so I just used fdisk and made the partition EXT3. Strangely enough Windows wouldn't boot after that, go figure why. So I had to install Linux over my windows partition, which ended up being another improvement.

Now I'm so happy with my windows-improved-ext3-linux system I thank microsoft everyday for such a wonderful OS!

my mod....

[dosle]

One of the easier ways (if you are well versed in xp services) is to disable/manual set all the services you will not need. Of course, this assumes you KNOW what all those services do in the first place ;)

keep in mind, when you assume, you sometimes make an ASS out of U and ME.

You can't have it both ways

[antarctican]

Whoa wait a minute here....

They're less statisfied because of the woeful default applications, unlike Linux you have to buy/download all your additional tools.

However when Microsoft tries to bundle things with the OS to solve this problem (think IE), they're demonized for being a monopoly and trying to leverage their OS to cut out the competition.

So which is it? Do we want an all-in-one OS and application suite or do we want a distinct separation of the OS from it's applications to prevent abuse.

I am NOT defending MS. I'm personally on the side that they're exploiting a monopoly. However this means you can't expect everything to "be there" when you're finished installing Windows.

Just a random ponder.... I wonder when M$ or others will accuse SuSE or RH of trying to stiffle the competition by bundling apps with the OS.

</devil's advocate>

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Terrasque]

I wonder when M$ or others will accuse SuSE or RH of trying to stiffle the competition by bundling apps with the OS.

Microsoft bundles/promotes their own software.

I think fewer people would have a problem with it if Microsoft bundled for example OpenOffice, Firefox, VLC and Gimp.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[nine-times]

They're less statisfied because of the woeful default applications, unlike Linux you have to buy/download all your additional tools.

However when Microsoft tries to bundle things with the OS to solve this problem (think IE), they're demonized for being a monopoly and trying to leverage their OS to cut out the competition.

This is true, to an extent. There are people who think Microsoft shouldn't bundle apps, and there are people who think that they should. However, bundling applications is just one of the issues that cause people to claim Microsoft is abusing a monopoly.

It's not just the fact that they bundle their own applications. It's that they:

• refuse to bundle anyone else's application under any circumstances. The fact that IE comes pre-installed, and Firefox doesn't, provides a big advantage for IE.
• make it impossible for you to remove their applications (at least in any supported way).
• refuse to document the APIs that their own apps use, thereby allowing their own applications greater integration with the OS than other developers are capable of doing.
• are suspected of purposefully sabotaging other applications by making changes to their undocumented APIs, file formats, and protocols.

Perhaps there are other concerns too.There are some that believe Microsoft should either cease bundling their own applications or start bundling alternatives as well, providing an option for users. I can see why people would want this, but I can also see a valid objection from Microsoft that if they bundle 3rd party applications, Microsoft would then have to provide support for products that they don't control. I don't think it would kill them, though, to throw a copy of Firefox on and put a disclaimer that it won't be supported by Microsoft.

Either way, I suspect that if Microsoft provided a means of uninstalling their applications (or not installing them in the first place), just like any other program, and documented all their APIs, protocols, and file formats, then a lot of the criticism would go away.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[antarctican]

Microsoft bundles/promotes their own software.

I think fewer people would have a problem with it if Microsoft bundled for example OpenOffice, Firefox, VLC and Gimp.

Ahh, but if they bundled OpenOffice, then Corel could jump and scream about being discriminated against.

If they bundled Firefox (it always seems to come back to IE/Firefox when the subject of bundling comes up), Opera and Netscape could jump and scream about it.

At what point do you stop? There's a lot of software out there, how do you decide what to include?

I'm not trying to troll as one moderator suggested, I'm asking an honest question that we as a community need to decide what exactly our objectives are. What is "right" and what is "wrong"?

Re:You can't have it both ways

[I'm Don Giovanni]

"refuse to bundle anyone else's application under any circumstances. The fact that IE comes pre-installed, and Firefox doesn't, provides a big advantage for IE."

Why should Microsoft pay for the distribution costs of another's app for free? If someone wants Microsoft to bundle and distribute their app for them, let them pay Microsoft to do so (and such deals have been made in the past, for things such as defragmenters).

"make it impossible for you to remove their applications (at least in any supported way)."

Everything in the "Accessories" program group is optional and can be added or removed at will. As for browser, email, media player, IM, and JVM (let's face it, these are the apps that you're referring to), XP has the "Program Access and Defaults" manager that allows one to choose a non-MS app as the default and allows for disabling the MS apps.

"refuse to document the APIs that their own apps use, thereby allowing their own applications greater integration with the OS than other developers are capable of doing."

Pure FUD. Please provide examples.

"are suspected of purposefully sabotaging other applications by making changes to their undocumented APIs, file formats, and protocols."

Suspected by those with an anti-MS agenda, maybe. You have no proof. This is more FUD on your part.

BTW, Apple does each of the above (sans the "purposely sabataging" bit).
What fool modded this as "Insightful"?

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

refuse to document the APIs that their own apps use, thereby allowing their own applications greater integration with the OS than other developers are capable of doing.

Bullshit
the api is published and freely available, that's right FREE... Because if you have to pay some programmer/company it must suck, the only good apps are FOSS right??

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I always see these claims that Microsoft is using some super-secret kernel-level APIs to make their applications work "better". However, nobody ever offers any evidence whatsoever. I'm not saying it isn't true (I couldn't possibly know); I'm just saying that if you want me to believe you I need more evidence than "because an anonymous internet user said so". Is it not possible that Microsoft is using fully published APIs, and simply has more experience and knowledge than those that claim otherwise? Show me the money.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Terrasque]

I intentionally only listed up open source projects there.

They're very standard driven (being able to talk to other people's programs = good, as opposed to many commersial systems), and, really, open source programs should be .. well, the baseline to measure other programs. Let people have that, and then pay for a better system if that one doesnt satisfy your need.

Furthermore, they're less competetive. They're (well, almost all of them at least) non-profit, for gods sake!

Oh, and of unfair competition. If you, as a software company, cant produce programs good enough to compete against something people toss together in their spare time, and give away for free? Slightly exaggerated, I know. But the principle is there. If you can't compete against that, you're doing something wrong.

Think of it a bit like expensive Nike-brand clothes VS something you find in the discount bin at the supermarket. Both will do the job, but if you want to spend money on a Nike, you're welcome.

Its a bit late, and I'm tired. Hope it's not too big a mess :-)

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Hymer]

"I wonder when M$ or others will accuse SuSE or RH of trying to stiffle the competition by bundling apps with the OS."
MS can't do that... all those bundled applications are free and that is the differnce.

File under Analogy, Apt

[Anonymous Coward]

This is like putting rims and a new leather interior in a car with a leaky tranny (as in a transmission that leaks, not the 'leaky tranny' you saw on the net last night... by accident, of course).

It improves the perceived quality of the car in the short term, but when the engine craps out (i.e. Windows crashes, or app cores), they'll just make you wish you had a car with a better engine (*nix).

Re:File under Analogy, Apt

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you actually ever used Windows since Windows 95?

One word

[wumpus188]

... PuTTY

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so THAT'S what Kelly Osborne was going on about!

Re:One word

[uberjoe]

One word: Cygwin. Using Windows without it is like using a toilet and not having any toilet paper.

You just need to learn the use the three sea shells.

Re:One word

[pyros]

I used to big real big on using putty, until I got tired of having too many putty windows up. For a while I tried setting up a single ssh session to a linux box and x-forwarding konsole back to my local display, but that was annoying to have to go through the hoops for that. So I looked around for a tabbed windows app, and found SecureCRT. It rocks the house over putty. The only problem is that it costs $100. But it is seriously sweet. One feature I like is for any SSH2 tab (it supports SSH1/2, rsh, rlogin, telnet, and I think a couple others) you can right-click, select "open sftp" and you get a new tab for the same host with an sftp prompt, without having to login again. It also includes a full set of command-line apps in addition to the gui.

PuTTY is a pretty nice standalone app, but for free ssh, I definitely prefer openssh under cygwin. That way you also get the rootless X server, bash, and rxvt (for line-wrapping select-to-copy and middle-click to paste with sensible word anchors (double-click on /path/to/file/the/i/want/to/email and the whole path is selected, unlike putty/cmd which will highlight one word within /s or select the whole line, but not wrap).

I know an even easier way to pep up windows...

[HerculesMO]

Boot off of a Linux CD and install. :)

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows? I DO!

[Anonymous Coward]

I do, and what do I like? MANY things:

1.) A powerful, flexible/ubiquitous API in Win32 (with tons of development tools that have TRULY evolved to massive power & ability as well as ease of use (e.g.-> Borland's Delphi &/or C++ Builder, Ms-Access &/or Ms VB, etc./et all)).

2.) High level/surface area of employeability (on TONS of levels, inclusive of development, technical support, network administration/engineering, you-name-it)... it is, after all, on 90% of the systems out there from desktops to servers

3.) Applications for TONS of purposes (I'd safely dare to say here more than any other hardware platform out there, as well as OS platform as well for personal computers)

4.) Hardwares for TONS of purposes (same as last post's paratheses' area but substitute in hardware & drivers for the pure software stuff I put up above)

5.) I can go on & on, others can add to mine easily I am certain & I am in a BIG hurry (gotta "jet back" to work is why)

* :)

APK

you mean

[mrcdeckard]

photoshop isn't open source?

Anyone else use sDesk?

[crownrai]

The Tomasek http://www.tomasek.cz/stary_soft/sdesk/ version not the newer one from Bresner.

It works amazingly fast and supports sticky windows, draging windows from one desktop to another, dekstop names, any number of virtual windows, short cut keys for any window. Lots of features than I have not seen in any other pager for Windows.

Paint.NET

[Eslyjah]

Rather than messing with the GIMP on Windows, I prefer to use Paint.NET for my light graphics needs. It's not as powerful as Photoshop or the GIMP, but it is quite nice and available under an MIT license.

Re:Paint.NET

[joshv]

Downloaded it, installed it, loaded up a pic I took, and watched little trails of white dots speckle my picture as I moved the cursor over it. These persisted even as I moved the window. Doesn't happen in The Gimp, PS, or any other photo editor I've used. I think I'll take a pass.

they left out one of the most important ones...

[neouser99]

What happened to Gaim...with all of the AIM viruses and everything going around, how could you leave this one out. It is really powerful...login to all my accounts from MSN, yahoo, AIM, everything with one application.

Re:they left out one of the most important ones...

[ilselu1]

Exactly. The ability to run multiple clients at the same time is also nice.

Re:they left out one of the most important ones...

[ZakuSage]

Gaim is really good for convergence of IM protocols, but... I really don't think many would embrace it as they would Firefox or The GIMP. The fact is that it doesn't really support extras for the IM protocols. With Google Talk and MSN in Gaim, I've wanted to have a voice converstaion many a time, but couldn't because it wasn't supported. Sure, there's Skype, but not many people I know use it (except as a quick novelty), and it isn't supported by Gaim.

Re:Cygwin in general...

[Radice Utente]

...rocks! It includes an SSH client which combined with the X server provides all the terminal emulation you need. The X interface and handling of clipboard data is spotty, but usable.

If you want a dedicated terminal emulator replacemet for the truly sorry Windows telnet and HyperTerminal programs, Simon Tatham's PuTTY is an excellent choice. It also includes a solid scp (secure copy/ftp) client.

Cygwin in particular is what keeps me from chucking the whole thing and running Linux. I get all the command line scripting and Unix-like tools without the bother of having to figure out how to make my employer's mail client work on Linux.

xplorer2: don't leave home without it

[pmike_bauer]

Use xplorer2 for all you file management needs. It is incredibly powerful and the price is reasonable (~35 US).

Note: I am not affiliated with this product other than being a very satisfied user.

Re:xplorer2: don't leave home without it

[Creepy Crawler]

Its not free software. Nobody cares.

What did you have problems with?

[CyricZ]

Could you give us some concrete examples?

I mean, we can't do anything to help improve your Linux experience if you never tell us what exactly was wrong!

Re:What did you have problems with?

[cerelib]

I believe that the biggest problem is hardware compatability. I know that all of the hardware for my computers has tested Windows drivers provided by the manufacturer. The OS is able to fully and correctly take advantage of my machine. My Linux experiences never felt as seamless. That is less of a fault of Linux as it is the lack of Linux support by hardware manufacturers. That little "Designed for Windows XP" badge smells of monopoly, but if I buy a computer there better be some form of badge or certification that at least one operating system will work correctly with all of the necessary drivers and support.

Re:What did you have problems with?

[CyricZ]

That's quite surprising! I have found the opposite to be true. Any decent Linux distro (ie. Debian-based distros, SuSE, but not Fedora) I've used within the past three or so years has detected all of my hardware perfectly, without the need to search around for drivers from the vendor. Then again, I do not use radically unusual hardware, so perhaps that is why I have yet to run into any problems.

Perhaps there's some troublesome hardware you have that you could list the name and model number of, so that we can know to avoid it if possible in the future?

Re:What did you have problems with?

[Dan_Bercell]

Your correct, the 'good' Linux distro support the majority of the hardware out there, however this is a fairly new thing. But unless its supported by the vendors it doesnt mean much. Until vendors start providing Linux drivers on a 99% basis for their hardware, hardware will be a huge reason to use Windows over Linux. Software is the other reason. MS knows why they have a handle on the market and will fight to keep it, nothing really wrong with this, any other company does the same thing, MS just happens to be one of the largest companies in the world.

Are you sure?

[delta_avi_delta]

I know this isn't going to go down well in our little world here, but I contest

The average Windows user tends to be less than satisfied with Windows.

At the very least I'd like to see compelling evidence supporting the statement. "The average user" is probably frustrated with computing in general, "the average user" hasn't tried any other operating system, and in my experience, when "the average user" tries another platform, the initial frustration spike caused by evertyhing being slightly different, is enough to see them run back to suckle at the Microsoft's corporate teat.

I sometimes feel I'm in a silent majority here, who actually acknowledges that all their average user friends except the arty kid, not only user windows, but haven't even considered anything else.

Re:Are you sure?

[davez0r]

i'd have to agree. my dad is going to buy a new laptop, and seeing as all he does on his current one is browse the internet, read email, and compose the odd document, i figured he should get a mac. so i brought one from work for him to try, and it totally freaked him out. he's not a complete noob, but he was visibly anxious when playing around with osx. it was strange.

after a while, he gave up, exclaiming "i'm too old to switch operating systems!"

i'm gonna try to push it again, but it's going to be a hard to impossible sell.

Re:Are you sure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. That should read more like

            The average user is frustrated and angry with Windows, but also unaware of any alternatives - making
            them even more angry and frustrated

They find basic things like, for example, being able to turn the computer on and have it start up just like when it was new, just don't work. So they put up with it, not knowing what is wrong or how to fix it. After a flurry of these things going wrong, they are so worn down they just have to try to accept this is that way "computers" are.

Re:Are you sure?

[animeshpathak]

..."the average user" hasn't tried any other operating system,...

I would say the average user does not even know that other OSs exist, or for that matter, what an Operating System is.
-A

Re:Are you sure?

[Lucractius]

Oh your not alone, but ive been spreading the word damn it!

I can say that the roll up to the Launch of vista will probably help me convince more than a dozen people i know to actualy MAKE THE EFFORT to switch to Linux. Its evil i know but its fun to get out the FUD Gun and load a few reams of Microsoft information in, then fire shots at content XP users, suddenly scaring the crap out of them and then happily telling them of the alternatives they have.

Im learning more than ever and even though i may actualy USE vista myself... ( if it turns out theres a lovely little "STFU I know what im doing, Kill the DRM and protect me from myself BS" button or checkbox mabey. ) ill be making the switch on my secondary machine gauranteed (at least at the time it should be secondary). But i know exactly how hard/easy it can be to convince people they should think. All it takes is very loud up close use of the good old FUD gun. "How are you gonna feel when Vista makes your Movies look like shit cause you didnt fork out more cash for a complete set of fully authorised encrypted multimedia compliant devices that double the cost of your box." *pause before giving them a proper although mildly FUDed information*

Abiword?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Abiword A real alternative to MS Word"

Bullshit of the highest order! It's horrible, full of render bugs, creates incompatible documents even when you save in the formats of other programs, lacks useful features, has a horrible interface... ugh.

Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[PhYrE2k2]

When MS started trying to make the OS everything to everyone, they were accused of predatory behavior and taken to court numerous times. Now we're complaining that MS Paint isn't powerful enough for graphics editing and that Windows Audio Recorder doesn't hold a candle to other third-party utils?

Bingo. But the topic becomes integration versus bundling. There is nothing wrong with providing a tool, such as including a web browser, chat program, mail program, graphics program, word processor or so on.

The link is not between the operating system and the applications, but the act of choice.

The key to Linux is that inserting a CD doesn't give you every tool you could want, but rather you need to tell it what you want by selecting "hey- I need productivity tools" and clicking it. You need to go "hey I need to dialup to the Internet" and install modem and PPP tools.

Contrast that to windows XP that offers _NO_ choice to software installed. If you think there is choice, you're thinking of Windows 2000 or 98 where they let you check off whether you wanted media player and outlook express (be it that it may only hide them, it still does the same end effect for the user). Windows XP installs do not prompt for software inclusion (maybe if you start tweaking INF files...).

Media player just shows up as the default media player and takes over associations from time to time. IE pops up for a Web URL and has an icon on the desktop by default. An install of XP doesn't give the user a choice to say "you know what- FireFox is the browser for me. no thank you " and then install FireFox. It doesn't give you the option to decline installing media player. Sure you could go through a nest of confusing (to a new user) menus for Start | Settings | Control Panel | Add/remove components | system components | media tools followed by a very full dialog of information.

Given that, there is a degree of tools that are necessary and don't really compete with their counterparts. Notepad is a good example, as well as calculator. These are handy tools that don't mean a lot, and if you do need a powerful solution, you'll get UltraEdit or similar. These are arguably a part of the O/S that may or may not need removing.

So where am I getting at? The key reason why Microsoft got in trouble was it's INTEGRATION (IE as a part of the OS) and LACK OF CHOICE (media player installed by default) and not the fact that it was bundled on the CD. It's that no matter what a user thinks, IE is installed. That no matter what you say, you're getting a copy of media player that will always come up from time to time. That the user is not INFORMED that "hey- I have the option to install media player... maybe there are better/other players out there I should research and find something that is faster".

-M

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[NatteringNabob]

I'd mod this up if I had points. butI'm fresh out today. And it's worth pointing out that Microsoft only bundles half way decent apps when they wish to use their platform monopoly to extinsguish some competitor that might someday threaten that monopoly. MS bundled IE because they didn't want Netscape to become the development platform rendering Windows irrelevant. The bundled a broken Java for the same reason. They bundle a media player for a similar reason. If the product doesn't threaten the Windows monopoly, or even better, helps extend it by offering a solution that doesn't run on anything else, MS is perfectly happy to ship nothing, or total crap in that space.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[Anonymous Coward]

The key reason why Microsoft got in trouble was it's INTEGRATION (IE as a part of the OS) and LACK OF CHOICE

Yeah, and Linux has the opposite problem - too many choices that confuses the user. Every distro seems to include 10 different ways of doing something. Is it any wonder 'Linux for Desktop' hasn't gotten very far?

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[JBHarris]

Last I checked when Installing Windows XP it allows you to 'customize' the installation by choosing certain components and unchoosing others. In fact, I'm possitive I chose to install IIS when I set up my workstation, but left it off of my secretary's. Insteresting.

MS - Damned if they do, Damned it they don't.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[bearxor]

I just love this argument. I think it's the bestest argument in the whole wide world. Once we get Microsoft to include competitors apps with their operating system, we should then move on to the following:

Coca-Cola must include one can of Pepsi for every purchase, Pepsi must likewise do the same. After all, you never know if someone will like one over the other unless you give them the chance to choose.

For every XBox 360 sold, Microsoft must include a PS3 and Nintendo Revolution. After all, you never know if someone would like one over the other unless you give them the chance to choose.

You get the idea of how ridiculous it sounds to tell a company to bundle it's competitors product in their package.

I know this argument is like the heralding trumpet of the OSS/Mac crowd, but I think it just sounds retarded.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[aaronl]

Dude, did you actually *read* the GP? It did not propose to make MS included competing applications. It said that MS gives you no control over the applications that get installed. You can't choose to not have WMP, IE, or anything else, installed with the OS. With each release of Windows, MS gave you less and less choice over what gets installed on the computer. You have to let it install everything, and then uninstall what you don't want. Then if you want to get rid of the rest of what you don't want, you have to jump through flaming hoops. You get to mess around with "system file protection" to get rid of the remainder of OE, you *can't* get rid of IE, etc.

Not to mention that your comparisons are completely invalid. Including a bunch of physical things when you buy something is quite different than throwing a few extra things on a CD. As in the former costs a lot of money and the latter costs no money, unless you have to pay licensing fees. Damn, try to make a *little* sense at least.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[PhYrE2k2]

Last I checked when Installing Windows XP it allows you to 'customize' the installation by choosing certain components and unchoosing others. In fact, I'm possitive I chose to install IIS when I set up my workstation, but left it off of my secretary's. Insteresting.

I install OS's at various clients rather regularly. The add/remove components box allowing you to choose whether to install say solitaire, network services, Upnp, etc appears in 2000 install, but not in XP. I guess it's too 'complicated' for your average user.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[aaronl]

No, it doesn't let you select any of the applications when you install XP. You can remove them after they are installed, or make a custom CD without them. During the initial XP setup, you can change what networking options get installed, and that's it.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[bearxor]

The comaprisons are completely valid. The problem with people in the way of thinking that you have is that software on a CD is not physical. That's where the whole 'It's ok to pirate music because all I'm doing is rearranging bits on [b]my[/b] hard drive to make a digital representation of the music, so it's ok' argument comes from.

This is the kind of shit that just pisses me off. It's the whole 'These people are stupid and uneducated so we need to provide everything available to them in an easy to use form and make sure they know about choices rather than them spending the time to find out stuff on their own.'

Then the same people here advocating this stuff want to laugh about how stupid computer users are, well what do you expect when you hold their hand through everything?

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn you, now I'm drunk!

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[aaronl]

No, those comparisions are NOT valid. One costs the company money to produce, the other does not. One is physical, the other is not. They are related only in that both are products that someone else came up with. It would cost Microsoft nothing additional to put Firefox on their Windows CDs over what they pay to make the CDs right now. It would cost Microsoft hundreds of dollars per unit to ship a PS3 and a Nintendo with each XBox. How can you say the two are comparable? The comparison would be valid if Playstations and Nintendos were free, had no weight, and took up no physical space in the packaging.

The "copyright infringment is ok" argument comes from people that are trying to rationalise that they aren't doing anything wrong; they are incorrect and they know it.

I was complaining about how MS goes out of their way to make it exceeding difficult to *not* have their software installed on your computer, set to be used by default, and hooked into the OS so that all Windows functions must use it. I was informing you that the GP *also* was saying that, and not what you decided that s/he said.

Ultimately, the reason that computer users are "stupid" is because so many of them try quite hard to not learn anything. To do a real world comparision, the way most computer users are is like having the same problem with your car every week, being capable of fixing it in two or three minutes for free, but having to get a mechanic to come and fix it because you never learn the procedure to fix it, even though he tells it to you every time. You can tell someone how to stop a computer from screwing up, how to install a USB device, how to duplex a print job, etc, but a lot of them will never bother to actually learn it.

Providing choice does not equate to the same problem. When I install Linux, I can typically choose between a few programs that do the same thing, right off from the installer. That's not as important as the fact that I can choose to have *no* web browser, from the installer. That is what we were saying to you, and that is the larger problem. Microsoft *doesn't* let you pick the "no program" option anymore.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[node 3]

So where am I getting at? The key reason why Microsoft got in trouble was it's INTEGRATION (IE as a part of the OS) and LACK OF CHOICE (media player installed by default) and not the fact that it was bundled on the CD.

The problem wasn't the integration so much as the fact that MS, by virtue of providing the OS used by over 90% of all PCs, was able to (and in fact did) use that product to force other products on the user. The problem *was* the bundling.

In retrospect, the bundling issue sounds incredibly lame. What modern OS doesn't include a media player or a web browser as part of the/a default install?

It's silly. OS X bundles Safari and QuickTime. GNOME bundles Totem and Galeon. KDE has Konqueror and whatever their media player is. Virtually all distributions bundle Firefox and xmms. Even BeOS and Amiga OS have bundled browsers and media players.

MS bundles IE, but I used Netscape exclusively until IE 4, and I now use Firefox. MS bundles Media Player, but I still use VLC, QuickTime, Real, iTunes, and about a million other media players.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[snilloc]

Actually, "Integration" was msft's defense in the IE debacle. If IE is integrated, it can't be separated. If IE hadn't been integrated (to the extent that they claimed it was), then they could have removed it and there would be no more IE shipped w/ Windows.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of which, Microsoft has programmed that little "Set Program Access and Defaults" thing to be as byzantine to use as possible. Worse, Microsoft-provided URL's, that Microsoft knows work on no other browsers (Windows Update, Office Update, Microsoft Update, ... etc.) go straight to another browser if you have the audacity to choose one. End result: inexperienced users think their non-Microsoft browser has a problem, when it is Microsoft that has the problem. And, you have to go through a completely unnecessary copy-paste step (not to mention manually launch IE) to get around the roadblock.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[doubledoh]

One costs the company money to produce, the other does not. One is physical, the other is not. They are related only in that both are products that someone else came up with. It would cost Microsoft nothing additional to put Firefox on their Windows CDs over what they pay to make the CDs right now.

You obviously don't know much about running a business. Microsoft does. Forget about the "physical costs" for a second. Have you forgotten that people cost money? Microsoft is not run by a bunch of hippies...all the developers get paid. A whole group of people would have to be hired just to manage deals and interactions between Microsoft and other companies like Mozilla. That costs money. People would need to be hired to fix compatibility problems between windows and these 3rd party apps. That costs money. Marketing teams and product managers would need to be hired to sell this product and all of it's "free" bundled software. That costs money.

Other posters have mentioned that if Microsoft bundled OS software many people would still believe that it was Microsoft's responsibility to support those products as well as their own. Support costs money (even if you have to hire a team that specifically has to tell customers to contact the respective 3rd Parties instead). Fail to do that and you suffer the costs of lacking or confusion support policies. Also, if Microsoft had to dilute their product with a bunch of other software made by companies that do in fact compete with them in other fields, Microsoft loses billions of dollars in brand dilution and devaluation. Oh, and probably the biggest cost of all: some multi-billion dollar verdict handed out to the OS community against microsoft for violating some GNU type licence (ie, charging money for open source software)...not to mention the backlash from the OS community just for profiting off of their "free" work.

It doesn't matter if something is "free", there are still lots of people behind that something and lots of costs a non-business owner like yourself hasn't even thought of, but Microsoft and many of the OEM's have.

Besides, what about the cost to freedom? If we start forcing companies to offer additional products with their own products whether they compete or not...isn't that basically making a slave of all entreprenuers? Isn't that basically taking away liberty? No thanks, I enjoy my freedom.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[XO]

And with DOS, you get a copy of FDISK.COM, wether you WANT TO OR NOT.
With Linux, you get /bin/ls WETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.
With MacOS, you get FINDER WETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.

  I'm not a Microsoft zealot, but that's not the issue, either.

  I don't think I can adequately explain the issue, and even if I could, no one on slashdot would understand it anyway.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[XO]

Would you complain if Windows could only run software written by Microsoft?

  Would that make sense?

  It would make sense to me.

  Be glad that Windows is allowed to run things not produced by Microsoft.

It's almost like you're complaining that you have to write software for Windows, to make software run in Windows.

  Your argument is total garbage.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[aaronl]

Actually, no, I wouldn't complain. But if Windows only did run MS software, we wouldn't be running Windows, would we? That would be a horrible business decision, since they would never have gained market share. Almost everyone out there wants to run non-MS software for something, either because the MS version isn't good enough, or because there simply isn't a MS version.

What part of my argument is garbage? The part where I kept saying that the original post I was talking about wasn't saying what the response insisted? Maybe the part where I was saying that MS has increasingly gone with the default "install everything" approach? Perhaps the part where I said that too many users try hard to not learn anything about their computers?

All of those things are true. The only part of my post that is an argument is that there is a fundamental difference between a physical object and some additional data on a CD-ROM. Aside from that, it was a collection of facts.

Re:Integration versus Bundling, Choice

[aaronl]

Where exactly did I say that MS *should* ship third party software? I said there was a difference between shipping a competitors software and a competitors hardware. I said it wouldn't cost money to ship the software, unless there was licensing to worry about, but that it would cost a substantial amount to ship hardware. *YOU* said they were the same thing. I also specifically said that I didn't think MS should have to ship competitors software.

Seriously, start reading posts before you comment; that was the issue I initially responded to you about. You managed to say the same thing as I did, while simultaneously saying that I was wrong.

One word

[Jon Abbott]

One word: Cygwin. Using Windows without it is like using a toilet and not having any toilet paper.

You forgot....

[xmorg]

GAIM - Most users chat, and having multiple chat windows in one helps vs, having 4+ clients open to talk to all your friends (does not do fancy features like voice/cams yet)

gvim/Jedit - more text editors (never heard of "Tinn")

Blender - Alternative 3d modeler

jlGui - small light java mp3/ogg player.

Woa, i didnt know you could use VLC on windows! totally sweet!

Not satisfied?

[null etc.]

The average Windows user tends to be less than satisfied with Windows. And that's no surprise, either, given the rather woeful state of its default applications.

Oh yeah? That's funny. I'm not less than satisfied with Windows, and I could care less about its default applications. I buy the software that I need.

Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[Resident Netizen]

I'm using UltraEdit, which is very good and satisfies all my needs.
But I'd like to know which text editor I can recommend to friends who don't want to shell out money for their editor.
Thanks!

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[ip_vjl]

I have a TextPad license (not free) that I use on my personal machine, but when I need a text editor on another machine that isn't mine, I've installed Notepad++ and felt it was pretty good.

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[Quarters]

Crimson Editor is an excellent freeware text editor for Windows. http://www.crimsoneditor.com/

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[ozric99]

I always used to use the commercial TextPad but recently have been swayed by PSPad.

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[DJ Marvin]

A really nice editor is Scite, I use it all the time, and is almost as powerful as UltraEdit. The only problem (maybe) is that most of the configuration is done through file editing. But this also allows for a very detailed configuration.

Off course, there's always Vim, but that is another story (and I really like code completion and some other things that Scite has and Vim lacks).

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[Anonymous Coward]

try notepad++ -- it's got tabs, syntax highlighting, &c.

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[cronot]

I've been using Metapad for years now. It hasn't been updated, but really doesn't need to. It's as simple as vanilla notepad, but more powerful and with nifty features, all this with little memory footprint (the executable weights on 90Kb). But it's just a notepad - it doesn't have fancy stuff like code colouring, regexp search, etc.

Re:Recommend me a good, free, text editor!

[BamaRob]

I really like PFE - Programmer's File Editor http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/steveb/cpaap/pfe/def ault.htm.

Microsoft's Virtual Desktop Manager is a bad app

[stefanlasiewski]

Microsoft's Virtual Desktop Manager is not a powerful application.

Most of us looking for multiple desktops probably come from the Linux desktop world, and want many of those features: Keyboard navigation, edge flipping, an easy way to move application windows between virtual desktops and sticky windows.

Microsoft's Virtual Desktop Manager does none of this. In addition, it's pretty buggy-- switching between virtual desktops can leave many artificts on the screen, the toolbar for each virtual desktop may actually list applications from another virtual desktop and the toolbar may lose the toolbar icon for items on your current desktop.

And Microsoft hasn't really updated any of the features of this application in 3 years.

VirtuaWin is a pretty good app, and has most of the features listed above. In addition, there are dozens modules to add various features.

  It's a little confusing to configure.

How to pep it up good.

[Anonymous Coward]

STEPS:
1. Melt down some mercury fulminate, and mix it with wax to form a plastique. MF is very sensitive to vibrations, impact forces, and heat.
2. Using a cherry-red hot knife, cut a wedge out the side of the Windows disk, to unbalance it.
3. Apply the MF paste to the disk.
4. Insert into 45x or faster drive.
5. Try to install. You will notice that Windows will have a hard time installing. This has nothing to do with the huge notch taken out of the disk, or the fact that it's covered in high explosive. This is normal.
6. Blame Microsoft for fscking your system up.

slow day for tech-news?

[Quadfreak0]

or is slashdot slacking off, more crap like this and /. wont be any better than digg. oh wait was this article a paid ad?

GraphCalc

[RenegadeTempest]

The http://www.graphcalc.com/Graphic Calculator they suggest is much better than the lame calculator included with windows. Even better than the graphic calculator power toy that M$ put out. Check it out, there is even a linux version.

Couple programs I like

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Pcalc - A very nice calculator with no stupid number buttons to get in the way. For when you don't need something complex that can do graphs and animations.

TClockEx - A nice little desktop utility that lets you configure the format of the system tray clock any way you want. (Note: Does not look good in XP unless you use the classic theme)

Change the shell to bb4win

[fak3r]

At my current consulting gig I have to use XP. I make myself more at home by running bb4win, one of the excellent Blackbox implementations for windows. Having everything under the left-click mouse button just makes sense to me, and doesn't look like the office clones around here. Throw on PuTTY, Cygwin, Firefox, Gaim and I'm almost home...

TheOpenCD

[LumpyCartman]

TheOpenCD has a nice collection also

Virtual Desktop options

[gregoryb]

I've never used Virtuawin, but I have been using Virtual Dimension and have been really impressed with it. It integrates almost seamlessly with windows and is decently configurable. Another option to consider if (like me) you feel hindered without virtual desktops.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows? I DO!

[Illserve]

none of which pertain to the question: do you LIKE to use Windows?

Can't say enough good things about GIMP

[Sundroid]

Bless you if you got the dough to purchase Photoshop, but GIMP, run on my Windows PC, works like magic. With its "Script-Fu" function you can create logos in literally seconds.

I use GIMP to create "faux" movie posters for my website (http://sunandfun.blogspot.com/).

Windows is an OS. Applications are applications.

[popo]

Dear Zonk,

One doesn't "pep up" Windows with applications. Windows is an "Operating System".
OpenOffice and Gimp are "Applications".

Nothing is being added to the functionality of the "Operating System" with the addition of these common apps.

Although I do love the concept of "pepping up" Mac OSX with Microsoft Office.

xo

Popo

Burning software

[oneeyedelf1]

Missing a good freeware burning program - http://www.cdburnerxp.se/index.php

Linux Version

[Dlugar]

I thought WinDirStat looked cool so I checked it out, and lo and behold it's based on a similar Linux (KDE) application: kdirstat. Downloaded it just now ... very cool.

Dlugar

Re:Linux Version

[swillden]

Also check out Konqueror's "File Size View". It provides a graphical view of space used where files and folders are represented as nested boxes, with the size of the box proportional to the amount of storage consumed. A folder that consumes 50% of the space will cover 50% of the Konq window.

Re:Linux Version

[XO]

Well, apparently not free, but if it's anything like Object Desktop for OS/2 was, which I'm sure it only emulates the major features, and not the entire thing, because there is no desktop system like OS/2's for ANYTHING ANYWHERE yet... but, that must be quite an awesome piece of software.

I am

[Rocketship Underpant]

I'm just one datapoint, but I sure hated Windows. I knew it, and I used it for ages, but I also fought it and struggled with it, watched it trash my data, fill my hard disk with clutter, cover my desktop with pop-up windows and spyware.

I tried Linux for half a year, really tried to like it. Ended up with a Mac, and now I like using a computer again.

Heh, and Windows is even worse once you've used OS X.

Re:Windows is an OS. Applications are applications

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

One doesn't "pep up" Windows with applications. Windows is an "Operating System". OpenOffice and Gimp are "Applications".

That is only one perspective. Windows is an OS, but it is also a platform. It is an environment within which users experience computer interaction. Adding applications that change that user experience can be said to be "pepping up" the Windows environment.

GNUWINII & The Open CD

[Chonine]

http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ and http://www.theopencd.org/ respectively. Two very great collections of software for windows users to open up to the world of open source. The former is much more comprehensive. It includes a bunch of the programs mentioned in the article, although the article refers to some that I've never heard of. Those CDs are getting a bit stale, but Windows FOSS in general is not.

In addition to all the lovely foss for windows, the only closed source program I ever recommend is nLiteXP . You basically copy your XP disc to a directory, and then sick nLite on it. It extracts the cabs and can really neuter it (Highly customizable with a slick GUI) and you can get your default XP install from ~2GB down to 400MB highly usable. Less if you wanted. nLite will make a new iso file that can be customized for auto install and service pack slipstreaming and driver install, all sorts of nifty things. You burn that and install.

So basically, you can have 350MB of core windows XP and another 500MB of the best FOSS for windows. A highly capable and speedy efficient XP box, its a great option for a lot of older hardware. I was doing this two years ago after getting fed up with closed and crappy apps, and then realized I might as well go all the way and use linux, so its a good intro to people who are curious about what open source offers. A lot of people were cautious about bringing free stuff to a closed platform, but I think it can only be good, as it increases awareness and may spur a platform switch like me. Also, not spreading freedom into an area where there lacks freedom sounds a lot like not donating food to an area that is starving. Neither will get people to move to linux/out of the third world.

And that, my friends

[Jhan]

...is what you should really compare the GIMP to. MSPaint, -not Photoshop-.

I've seen so many people who say things like "I normally use $X-thousand paint program, but I thought I'd try out GIMP. It sucks because X, Y, Z."

Sure, critisism is needed to keep the project moving forward, but the comparison isn't very fair.

Meanwhile, the many people who migrate from MSPaint and similar featurless "free" paint programs are generally quietly happy which makes the prior type of opinions overrepresented.

woeful state of its default applications?

[Bandit0013]

Gee, I wonder how much time you'd spend on your default applications if you got sued every time you tried to bundle something?

PuTTY

[Ed Avis]

Not mentioned: the PuTTY terminal emulator and ssh client, which lets you connect from your Windows box to some other system and so get some work done...

It also includes an scp implementation so you can securely transfer files between your Windows system and Unix boxes.

(Perhaps a niche market, but XKeymacs is useful for Emacs junkies stuck with Windows applications... there's also the Windows ports of GNU Emacs and XEmacs of course.)

Two Words

[xtracto]

DirectX API

Re:Two Words

[Lucractius]

Soon to be the WGF and its crippled 1.4 OpenGL implementation through Aeroglass.

DirectX api... You make me laugh.

OpenGL all the way. Stop fighting it!

Some other nice freeware

[DJ Marvin]

Well I think the reviewer could have included some other really nice freewares (or open source programs, depends on each program).

• Scite
• Winamp
• Mplayer with some frontend
• Clamwin Antivirus
• Quickstart (a very nice program that let's you use your keyboard instead of the awful Start menu)
• Poppy for windows
• UltraVNC (for those without Terminal Services)
• CutePDF (print to PDF from any program)
• Spybot
• Shareaza

And some other programs. I use all of this on a regular basis and I they all work perfectly. I can't even say that about Abiword...

Better email client than Thunderbird?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried many an email client for Windows and I don't like any of them*. Thunderbird needs quite a bit of work, The Bat! was too much of a mess. I used to use something called Calypso but the company stopped supporting it. Before that, it was Eudorka.

None of them are too great. For you Win people, what GUI mail client do you like (preferably free)?

* actually, I like *some* of MS Outlook, which I use for work. But I wouldn't dare use it at home.

or else...

[YesIAmAScript]

You just use a different kind of VDM.

When Xerox invented "rooms" (first virtual desktop), it was similar to this. And early multi windowed desktop managers like vtwm or HP's version were exactly like this. vtwm and HP's implementations did not connect screens at the edges.

So it would suggest it is more likely this was written by someone who used a VDM, but not the one you are used to.

Task Switch XP Pro

[staticsage]

Task Switch XP Pro is also pretty pointless.. my brother uses the Alt-Tab Repacement PowerToy, and it works just fine:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/power toys/xppowertoys.mspx

Re:Virtuawin *is* necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the MS app sucks. So did Nvidia's. Shortly after I found VirtuaWin and quite looking.

Yes, OEMs can.

[Anonymous Coward]

OEMs can include other applications on their images, and they are usually paid by that application's developer for the privilege. AOL, for example, pays OEMs something like $30 for each new customer they get from an OEM install of their software. (At least, that was the situation about five years ago.)

However, the secret licenses that Microsoft requires big OEMs to sign for the privilege of installing Windows can affect what other apps they are allowed to ship. I would guess that strategic competitors are simply barred from installation, and this would probably include programs like iTunes (though HP pre-installs it somehow), and above all else, OpenOffice.

Smaller OEMs who don't get special price breaks from MS for the copies of Windows they install are probably most likely to install FOSS on their systems. (MS can't use price breaks as a leverage point, since the little guys pay full price and that's that.) PCs for Everyone, in Cambridge, MA, was willing to preinstall OpenOffice on several machines I was pricing out from them, but I don't think they have that as a normal option on their website.

Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[SeanDuggan]

Maybe I'm just confused but what's the relation between Sound Recorder and Cdex? One allows you to record and add effects to a WAV file. The other one is a CD-ripping utility. Where's the open-source sound recording program to replace the Windows sound recording program?

Re:Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[Creepy Crawler]

audacity

Re:Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[BigMike]

In CDex, look under "Tools" and you can "Record from analog input". CDex may be MOSTLY a cd ripping utility, but its got some other features.

Re:Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[SeaFox]

Where's the open-source sound recording program to replace the Windows sound recording program?

How about Audacity?

Re:Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the coolest sound editing packages.

audacity.sourceforge.net/

Re:Sound Recorder replaced by Cdex?

[Anonymous Coward]

Audacity

Re:Windows is an OS. Applications are applications

[Anonymous Coward]

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. GOD SLASHDOT PISSES ME OFF SOMETIMES.

Shame shame shame on you whoever modded this as Flamebait. You just sided with Microsoft and every one of their flimsy idiotic anti-anti-trust arguments.

Applications are applications and Operating Systems are Operating Systems.

Microsoft always lumped them together ( Bill: We're just trying to make our products better... ) in an effort to disuguise bundling as "OS improvement". But the OS and applications are completely different things. Its not just semantics. Its a distinction of vital importance to the future software development.

Shame on whoever modded this flamebait, and shame on Zonk for being clueless once again.

MOD PARENT UP.

ps: Popo, you got modded as Flamebait, because you didn't get with the program:

Microsoft bad.

Opensource good.

MS Office bad.

Mac OSX good.

Silly popo.

Not only that...

[Animaether]

But if MS started to give the option to install Firefox, then wouldn't Opera complain ? What about the Lynx people (eheheh.) ? Or any of the other browser authors ?

Ditto for any other app.

They truly -are- damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

The only 'solution' to many people is that MS strip windows of everything, and leave it just as an OS.
Then take whatever they made beside that, and sell that in the store just like any other developer's application.
They should then be forbidden to underprice similar competition. So if Joe Schmoe's wordpad 'clone' sells for $15 off of some crappy shareware site, then that's how much Wordpad should cost.
And then finally they should be forbidden to offer special prices on 'bundles', such as a "Windows + Productivity Suite", which would essentially be Windows in its current state - as then many people would just get that, and not look at the other options.
Yeah. Right.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Gimp

[brokenarmsgordon]

I really, truly don't undestand why Gimp is so highly regarded. I have used the program and can confidently say, without equivocation, that I would rather use MS Paint. It'll be years before it can serve as a real replacement for Photoshop or even Paint Shop Pro, and where will those programs be by then?

Open source software is great, but using something just because it's free is not a good argument.

Re:Gimp

[The MESMERIC]

Gimp is just very unintuitive to most people specially coming from the MS and Photoshop camp.
The other day I was trying to make a 100% convincing reflection and to my surprise it was not Corel Draw nor Photoshop that delivered but Gimp's amazing Distort -> Curve Bend filter.
Don't ditch an application just because you lack the bother to learn or even investigate all it's capacity.

Gimp is pretty geared toward professional work and even part of the arsenal of many Hollywood artist ... but for mediocres like yourself - yes, MS Paint would be the recommended choice.

Re:Gimp

[brokenarmsgordon]

I gave it a fair shot, and I will be placated neither by its shortcomings nor by other users' vituperations.

Re:Gimp

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, maybe you and your thesuarus should just stick with Photoshop then. :)

Re:Gimp

[Dragonmaster Lou]

Give Gimpshop a whirl. It's hacked to look more like Photoshop in the UI department.

That said, it is quite powerful once you can get used to the UI. Maybe not quite a Photoshop killer, but I definitely thinks it stacks up well against Paint Shop Pro.

Re:Gimp

[blackdragon7777]

Gimps interface is unnecessarily bad. I should not have to use a context menu to save with the mouse! It is the single worst interface I have ever used in my life. I don't bother to learn this application because it would take me weeks to learn how to use it as well as I know photoshop.

Re:Gimp

[The MESMERIC]

If, by any chance, you are serious about digital art, Gimp is just another weapon to the arsenal.
I am not a purist myself - but not understanding how to use a product does not imply it is below par.
Many 3D modelling tools are highly complex and difficult to operate; does that imply they are "useless"?

Of course this shows that Gimp is a more technical tool geared towards professional use rather then Home & Family.

The secret with Gimp -> right click when in panic.
Under Linux, Gimp operations are lightning fast.

But I wouldn't insist trying - specially if you've already purchased Photoshop / Paint Shop and run MS Windows.
The learning curve is longer than most Windows apps.
So I wouldn't recommend to casual users; unless we want to see more "Gimp is crap" posts.

Re:Gimp

[brokenarmsgordon]

I do realize this, but isn't the fact that it's not available to casual users a mortal strike against it? Software can't claim to truly be an alternative unless it offers a compelling experience that is in some way on par with its competitors'. Gimp may very well be a powerful tool, but a tool is not a replacement. It's not there yet.

Re:Gimp

[The MESMERIC]

not all software are meant for casual users - and I would agree on one thing - anyone trying to advertise Gimp as such, is not doing anyone any favours.
These days casual rhymes with MS-like interfaces, with Gimp it only takes following the manual to get into its new way of doing things. After which, the difference is pretty minimal. But trying Gimp by trial-and-error with no systematic approach will only lead to frustration.
User-friendliness is a matter of exposure. We all been playing on and off with Photoshop for almost a decade, no wonder it is "easier".
Maybe they should get a group of people never exposed to computers and graphic software - half are taught Gimp, half are taught Photoshop - and then compare results; which is the easiest to work with. I'd be curious to know the outcome.

Other nice tool

[Nanoda]

Let me add yet another recommendation - I really like Steffen Gerlach's (free) Scanner. It shows disk useage as a simple pie-graph, and lets you drill down to directories, delete stuff, open an explorer window, etc.
I'm quite impressed with it anyways, and it comes with source if you're into that.

Should be a stepping stone to the move to Linux

[ravee]

Let's face it. Linux is more user friendly than windows. When it comes to productivity, opensource softwares leave all other closed source alternatives far behind. And what is more, all these softwares installed by default on Linux.

So my suggestion as a user of Linux is that use of opensource and GPLed softwares in windows should be a stepping stone to a shift towards eventual embrace of Linux as the OS platform.
And you will emerge with better knowledge about your computer too in the process.

With multi-million dollar companies of the likes of IBM and Oracle aggresively backing Linux, I think it is only a matter of time before there is a mass exodus towards Linux. Already hardware companies like Acer are providing laptops and PCs pre-installed with linux. And the $100 laptop being build by MIT is going to be powered by Linux.

Sndrec32... strange, that's what I use to rip cd'

[way2trivial]

in a rush, sndrec32 can rip cd's to mp3.. all you really needs is the lame mp3 codec. I've walked my MOM through this from a coupla thousand miles away when it was an emergency (for her, not me)

record a blank file, any length, then keep increasing its length by 'decrease speed' under the edit menu.. get to 4500 seconds for a 74 minute cd.

move the pointer to the beginning of the blank file.

play the cd, hit record on sndrec.

then change the properties of the wav to output on the lame codec.

then make sure to save the file as "whatever.mp3" as it still tries to save as wav.

Filezilla

[Fastball]

For your SFTP needs.

It's not what they *look* like that matters

[Rob Y.]

When people complain about apps all looking different under Linux, they're not really talking about what they look like. They're talking about how they *work*. And in Windows, the apps, regardless of how they look all share common behaviors - at least in the places where it counts.

It's (mildly) annoying to switch between Gnome and KDE apps, for example, because the File Open dialogs work so differently.

Likewise for different apps using different MIME lists.

For things like this, GNOME and KDE should use the current desktop's component in some kind of a pass-thru mode. It's not good enough to say that 'choice is good', when they make it impossible to make a consistent 'choice'. People are going to use a combination of apps based on different toolkits, and the toolkits should do their best to mitigate the problems that are caused by that reality.

And then there's the silly issue of button ordering...

After years and years of Linux use, I was burned recently by Firefox. I just got a new computer that's fast enough to use Linux as my primary system. Having been a Firefox-only user for years, I set up Firefox on Mandriva to look the way I like and logged on to my online banking app. Of course, everything worked fine, but when it came time to OK my payment, I apparently clicked the Cancel button, because the payment didn't get made. Only then did I notice that FF had the Gnome 'Cancel/OK' button order under Linux. I don't know whether Firefox picked this button order or the 'brushed' theme did it. Brushed is, I guess, a Mac theme - so not all *that* surprising. Except that it doesn't do that under Windows, and I've come to expect FF to work exactly the same regardless of platform. Oh well...

Re:It's not what they *look* like that matters

[CyricZ]

I would expect the behavior to differ between GNOME apps, KDE apps, Mozilla-based apps, and Windows apps. As long as you stick to one general environment, the consistency is usually quite good. Unfortunately, that's changing in the Windows world, as outlined previously. But when it comes to KDE, and less so GNOME, the consistency is there, and it's quite good. If you go mixing different environments together then you're going to run into differences.

It's not surprising that you ran into problems with Firefox. It's quite disappointing that the most common Linux builds are against GTK+ and GNOME, rather than against QT and KDE. QT and KDE have proven time and time again to be far more consistent, and the development is more coordinated. You could always try using Konqueror, for instance. It integrates far better into KDE than Firefox integrates into GNOME.

1st step

[1336.5]

format c:

Opera

[Poromenos1]

I use Opera for browsing/newsreader/mail/chat. The mail/chat clients are nothing fancy, but they have more features than I ever needed.

Bashionable...Bashing is Fashionable

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft bashing is like Bush bashing with more hex! But alas, thats the tendency of illogical arguments rooted in ideological dribble than real susbstance.

      Oh and of course Open Sores is the total solution to all of the worlds ills where some grand utopian dellusion of lollipops and candy canes dance in the golden sunshine plays out and no one makes a dime, all we all live happily ever after.

      Slashdot geeks are just leftists without the hot looking chicks!

URL Disappeared

[thijs_w]

The URL to the main article on Tom's Hardware Guide disappeard: for guys who're reading this after it had been removed: Tom's Hardware Guide: Pepping Up Windows

Which OS

[eheldreth]

On Windows I use EditPad I think it was one of the first to support tabing in a text editor. On OS X(Another great way to pep up windows, get rid of it)I have been using SubEthaEdit.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows? I DO!

[Creepy Crawler]

I think it'd be fair to answer for him.

Why do you like to use windows?
"It makes me money."

SciTE

[felgercarb]

Another worthy mention - SciTE text editor. http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html

Quick Survey People

[Ironsides]

Ok, for those who use windows, what of the following aps do you already use or tried out:
7-Zip
Abiword
Cdex
Cygwin
Dao-Setup
Ditto
Filezilla
Firefox
Gimp
Graphcalc
GTK+
Keynote
Litestep Installer
Open Office
Task Switch XP Pro
Thunderbird
Tinn
Virtuawin
VLC Media Player
Win Dir Stat


For me:
7-Zip: Used it a little, not that impressed.
Abiword: Been trying to remember to try it out one of these days.
Cdex: Only program I use for CD/MP3 conversion
Filezilla: Used it, works great
Firefox: Secondary browser on my machine (primary is mozilla)
Gimp: Using it right now
GTK+: See gimp
Open Office: Wasn't impressed with the last version, haven't tried out the latest version yet.
Thunderbird: My main email client
VLC Media Player: Watching a video on this right now




On a different note:
Dear god, I'm actually writing a survey for slashdot, how low have I sunk?

Re:Quick Survey People

[Lesson No. 25]

I really like most of these..

7-Zip
Cdex -- i prefer EAC
Cygwin
Filezilla
Firefox
GTK+ (required for gaim i think)
Open Office
Thunderbird
VLC Media Player

Re:Quick Survey People

[after fallout]

7-Zip - awesome program
Cdex - it's ok, I use it
Cygwin - yup, nothing like a bash shell
Filezilla - the only ftp program we tell our customers to use at work, can do sftp
Firefox - using Gecko/20050929 Firefox/1.4 - latest nightlies, on both windows and linux (windows is in a remote desktop on my linux machine right now) this very moment
Gimp - I've used it, on and off, for some things I like it better than photoshop and for others I like photoshop better, just depends on what I am doing
GTK+ - required for gimp, also for gaim
Litestep Installer - I am a developer for Litestep, working on the core
Open Office - 2.0 beta is nice, and my profs haven't had a problem with the .doc files they require me to hand in.

Other programs that aren't in this list:
Gaim - although I paid for trillian 3 pro, I replace aim with gaim on every computer I fix adware/spyware problems on.
Mingw gcc compiler - my windows development would be strikingly less without this

Programs that may not be open source, but are free:
Dev-C++ - A nice ide for mingw gcc
PsPad - A better ide for any compiler
VS.NET C compiler - here I do almost all the rest of my development (often I compile on both this and gcc)
Activestate Perl - I am honestly not sure if I could use my computer without this; I and everyone who uses my computer take perl for granted(and everyone other than me doesn't realize it)
Weather Watcher - Until this I had no idea why a program that displays information from weather.com was useful at all, now this program runs non-minimized at all times

Re:Quick Survey People

[Roguelazer]

7-Zip - Use it all the time. Loads better than the competition. Much faster with zip files than the built-in Windows stuff
Abiword - I mostly use this on OS X, but I use it on Windows occassionally. Basic but useful
Cygwin - I prefer MiniGW, but Cygwin is the original...
Filezilla - There are other FTP clients for Windows?
Firefox - Duh.
Gimp - Cheaper than Photoshop by infinity percent
GTK+ - Needed for the GIMP, plus Inkscape (which wasn't on your list? wtf?)
OpenOffice.org - Not quite as nice as MS Office, but again, infinity percent cheaper.
Thunderbird - I like Thunderbird, although Mail.app is better
VLC - There are other video players for Windows?

Re:Quick Survey People

[siliconjunkie]

7-Zip: I love it. Use it every day.
Abiword: Tried it. Not as good as Word, sorry.
Cdex: The best ripping app out the, IMHO.
Cygwin: I have used it. It's great for what it does.
Dao-Setup: Never heard of it.
Ditto: Never heard of it.
Filezilla: Prefer SmartFTP
Firefox: Excellent
Gimp: Great for free. Prefer Photoshop.
Graphcalc: Never heard of it.
GTK+: Necessary for Gimp and a few OS apps.
Keynote: Never heard of it.
Litestep Installer: I son't do replacement shells, too many compatability issues.
Open Office: Yuck.
Task Switch XP Pro: I use the Task Switcher powertoy from MS. Works great.
Thunderbird: Excellent mail app. I would use it if I wasnt already slaved to Outlook 2003.
Tinn: Never heard of it.
Virtuawin: Not into virtual desktops.
VLC Media Player: Prefer Windows Media Player for video, iTunes to manage my iPod.
Win Dir Stat: Don't care.

Re:Quick Survey People

[dtfinch]

I barely touch Windows at home anymore, but:

7-Zip - Great.
Abiword - Great. Loads very fast.
CDex - Great. I even run this on wine. Unfortunately abandoned by author.
Cygwin - Great. Lots of useful utilities.
Dao-Setup - Never heard of it.
Ditto - Ditto.
Filezilla - Great. The only ftp client I use on Windows, waiting for the Linux port.
Firefox - Great on Windows. On Linux, 1.5 beta is pretty good, but 1.0.x is just slow.
Gimp - Great. Takes a long time to load though.
Graphcalc - Never heard of it.
GTK+ - Necessary for many other programs on this list.
Keynote - Heard of it, but not sure what it is.
Litestep Installer - Never heard of it.
Open Office - Great, but slow to start. Using 2.0 development releases.
Task Switch XP Pro - Never heard of it.
Thunderbird - Great. The only email/news client I use.
Tinn - Never heard of it.
Virtuawin - Not sure what it is.
VLC Media Player - Never tried it.
Win Dir Stat - Never heard of it except the top post mentions it.

Add:
Gaim - The only IM client I use.
Putty - The only ssh client I use on Windows.
Xming - Great X11 server for Windows, ported from cygwin.
Notepad++, Programmer's Notepad, NoteTab, jEdit - all great editors. Each has some feature not found in the others. Mostly use Notepad++.
SharpDevelop - Good VS.NET replacement, though I already have VS.NET.
*VNC - I use TightVNC, but they're all pretty good.
ClickOff - Free but not open source. Good for closing annoying repetitive dialogs.
BurnCDCC - Also free but not open source. A great little CD burning utility. Small, simple, straightforward.
Flashblock plugin for Firefox - Flash ads don't play unless I click them.

Mac Equivalent: WhatSize

[Grincho]

Mac equivalents include WhatSize (free), OmniDiskSweeper (commercial and no reason to buy it, as WhatSize clones it completely), and even the Finder.

Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[xdroop]

Hey, I used Linux on this laptop for six months. I used Linux on this laptop's predicessor for three years. I use Linux at home on a server. I get Linux.

The problem is that I spent a long time on hibernation, and while I could sometimes get it to stop properly, it almost never restarted properly.

For sleep mode, Linux would usually work; but again, not always. I have far fewer problems with Windows than I did with Linux.

For the network: I know that Linux will do DHCP. That's how mine was configured. My complaint was that if I managed to make the laptop go to sleep on network A, and it woke up on network B, I would have to manually do the ifdown/ifup dance. Windows seems to assume that if it has gone to sleep it needs to renegotiate the network config when it is woken up, which is a safe assumption much of time, and a harmless one the vast majority of the time.

I'll admit that I don't mess around with changing my display resolution much; except that when I am docked at the office, it seems silly to be stuck in a 1400x1280 60Hz display if I have a 1600x1400 85Hz capable monitor sitting right in front of me. And that, plus the real, full-sized keyboard, is the only necessary justification for docking; anything else is just gravy.

Regarding the CDRs: the unfixated disks require something called DirectCD (part of the Roxio suite of products) in order to read; nothing else has been able to read them on any platform I've tried. I was stunned too.

And I've tried WINE. I even paid for CrossOver. And there are still some things that don't work under it (the Cisco switch management applet thing is the current gate).

The point of all this is that yes, I could do much (perhaps all) of my list on Linux; however, I'm not an 18-year-old living in my mom's basement anymore. I have a life, a wife, and a child; I no longer have hours and hours on end to fiddle with this and tweak that or whatever. If I can get things done without the fiddling and fussing it works much better for me, and for my employer.

But keep hacking on this stuff. Once it all "just works", I'm sure I'll come back to it because I really hate Windows. I just need it right now.

Re:Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just need it right now.

So just use Windows then, instead of complaining about Linux. Duh.

Re:Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[swillden]

My complaint was that if I managed to make the laptop go to sleep on network A, and it woke up on network B, I would have to manually do the ifdown/ifup dance.

Yeah, I think ifplugd handles this... noticing when your association has changed and re-requesting DHCP. As I said, I like my scripts better, so I haven't really looked into it.

Regarding the CDRs: the unfixated disks require something called DirectCD (part of the Roxio suite of products) in order to read; nothing else has been able to read them on any platform I've tried. I was stunned too.

I thought it might be something like that... and I *still* think Linux can handle it :-). What DirectCD uses is the "UDF" format, which allows incremental "packet" writing. There is now UDF support for Linux.

I could do much (perhaps all) of my list on Linux; however, I'm not an 18-year-old living in my mom's basement anymore. I have a life, a wife, and a child; I no longer have hours and hours on end to fiddle with this and tweak that or whatever.

Heh heh. Not that you need to impress me, but this argument doesn't do it. I have a wife, four kids and a job that is much more than full-time.

That said, I have had several years to gradually get my Linux systems the way I like them. Whenever I get a new laptop, I just 'dd' the old drive onto the new one and then take a day or two to fix up whatever doesn't work. Compared to the pain my Windows-using colleagues go through every time they get a new machine, that's a cakewalk. Most of them end up hauling around two machines for a month or so until their transition is complete. One guy finally convinced the company he *couldn't* move his stuff off the old laptop, so he had to keep both... hmmm, maybe *he's* the smart one. At this point, I think Linux takes far less time and effort for me to maintain and use than Windows, but there was a significant cost, spread over several years, to get here.

But keep hacking on this stuff. Once it all "just works", I'm sure I'll come back to it because I really hate Windows. I just need it right now.

Use what works for you, of course.

Re:Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[xdroop]

I just need it right now.

So just use Windows then, instead of complaining about Linux. Duh.

Yeah, silly me for replying to a question as to why I liked Windows. Duh.

Re:Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[xdroop]

I thought it might be something like that... and I *still* think Linux can handle it :-). What DirectCD uses is the "UDF" format, which allows incremental "packet" writing. There is now UDF support for Linux.

Well, the Windows "UDF" driver won't read them, and I've spent a ton of time on investigating the UDF driver for Linux before I figured that out.

Re:Linux: It Just Isn't Where Windows Is.

[swillden]

Ugh. I'll make a note not to buy Sony cameras...

Other Alternatives

[lenova]

(Note: Not all of these programs are open-source, but they are all free-as-in-beer)

Media Player Classic - while the VLC player is quite portable, I found it to be very slow on Windows. Media Player Classic is a fantastic replacement for Windows Media Player.

QuickTime Alternative and Real Alternative - codecs for Media Player Classic that will play QuickTime .mov and RealPlayer files.... no more need for crappy QuickTime player or RealOne!

WinAmp - still the greatest music player for Windows, IMHO. For those with iPods, you can download a plug-in call ml_ipod, which will allow you to synch your iPod with WinAmp... no more need for bloated iTunes!

Finally, AVG Antivirus, by far the best free antivirus product out there... easy to use, low memory resources.

Republished?

[unts]

I'm interested to know why the THG article has a creation date of the 30th sept when I read it on the 28th?

better options

[youta]

I would consider the following superior options for those recommended in the article.

7-Zip --> TUGzip http://www.tugzip.com/
I used 7zip originally, but when I found TUGzip I switched immediately. It has excellent Explorer right-click menu integration and supports drag/drop, and the 7z format itself. Plus it now supports encryption too.

Tinn --> PSPad http://www.pspad.com/
Just try it yourself, it's far more functional, and is starting to approach the featureset of UltraEdit.

You're missing the point

[PhYrE2k2]

You're missing the point. We are not saying 'bundle your competitors and provide the choice on your CD', but rather provide the choice in general to not have Media Player, Java, and other fun things (Java is no worry anymore- in fact any IE5 user will get taken to a page that doesn't exist at M$ to install the java that they don't provide... bravo M$).

There's nothing wrong with your pizza shop to include some flyers of local businesses, and maybe even a free sample of something... but you know that there is choice out there. You have the choice to throw it out or use the coupon. You have choice to eat the granola bar that came in the mail-slot or throw it out or return it to the sender. Also, you as a consumer have the knowledge that 'hey- other granola bars exist' just from walking down the supermarket isle.

On the other hand, you don't have a choice as to whether IE is on your system. Given no choice, you don't know better. Mention netscape to many of my customers and they'll ask me why I still haven't upgraded to IE despite netscape being many years old... Not being aware there is an option. Most people don't know Eurdora, Thunderbird and other options exist besides Outlook. I'm not saying advertise other options, but the key is that users take for granted what they have (such as if the granola bar shows up daily on my doorstep, I'd never buy snacks again) and aren't given the opportunity to make a choice other than the default.

So don't bundle Firefox, but do UNBUNDLE IE as a default and required option... Both are independant applications that are subject to the same choice and evaluation that the OS windows/mac/linux/os-2 decision went through. We're giving a fair chance to all products out there. You can include it on the CD, tell people "do you want to install the Internet Explorer web browser" and provide some information. It's a chance to promote the features and have the user choose to opt-in (or opt-out if you have it on by default) of installing IE. For the past 10 years or so (win95-OSR1 I think) you haven't been able to unbundle IE. Having the e on the desktop is the way to go. So many times I tell a customer to get on the Internet and they ask "You mean the E?". This is the mentaility of consumers because it's just there- it is the Internet... Not the other options out there.

-M

Re:You're missing the point

[bearxor]

I guess I have to ask, why do you care? I mean, if a program works well enough for a person, what does it matter to you that they don't go looking for something else. Maybe that granola bar is great, but one morning you wake up to get it and decide, I'm sick of this, it doesn't even really taste good, then you go out and get something else. Also, my pizza shop wouldn't include coupons to other pizza shops now would it? That's like Domino's giving out Papa Johns coupons. That's the connection I made, not the one that you use din your example. I think we have to accept that with computers being mainstream, that there is a large percentage of people out there that just really don't give a shit about using something else. The fact is that 80% of the people out there don't know or even care to know about DiVx or MPEG-4. They don't care about tabbed browsing. They don't care about DRM. I mean, why do geeks care so much? I didn't miss the point, I just want people to see where this line of thinking would ultimately go.

Re:You're missing the point

[PhYrE2k2]

I guess I have to ask, why do you care?

Because I used to use 98lite in order to strip out IE from explorer, restoring the windows 95 explorer. This shaved about 10-15 seconds off of your PC bootup time, and that's when PC bootup times were high and your processing power was a P100. I care because I have media player taking over my associations. I have crap installing on its own everywhere, and I have an empty C:\Program Files\xerox\nwwia directory in XP that windows will not let you delete and re-creates itself when you delete it through other means. My question is- why?

I mean, if a program works well enough for a person, what does it matter to you that they don't go looking for something else.

It has nothing to do with me. Look up at the parent I was originally replying to who was saying that one side wants more bundled and another makes lawsuits because too much is bundled. This is the topic at hand. My comment was simply that there is nothing wrong with giving the user the option to install, but it's M$ forcing users to use the additional components that they continue to get in trouble. It's an analysis of the situation at hand.

decide, I'm sick of this

Bingo. You have that choice as a consumer. However with Windows, there is a commitment to the operating system- an investment if you will. You have invested money in other programs that depend on that OS. You have invested time in learning the OS and getting comfortable with its use. It's vendor-lock-in. That's fine, but you then can't take advantage of that by FORCING other products on people. You can upsell them to install your media player, but you can't FORCE them to install your media player.

That's like Domino's giving out Papa Johns coupons.

But it's really not. It's more like papa johns coming over and painting your house the next day when all you really wanted was a damn pizza. You don't advertise your competitors, or even mention them, but the consumer has the choice whether they want to install additional software besides the software they purchase... similarly, you have a choice whether you let papa john's paint your house in their buy-one-turn-your-house-into-a-billboard `deal`.

large percentage of people out there that just really don't give

Indeed. But is it because they don't care or they don't know? Many artists choose to draw by hand... but knowing they have a choice is key. Some people want a car that gets them from point-A to point-B, but how many would prefer a car with heated seats and a sunroof given the choice? You should be able to get a car that does NOT make toast if you want (and man can you) in the same way that you choose a car that DOES make toast. I can get a car without ABS and a radio- which sure beats taking the fuse out of the ABS controller and radio... and can you.

80% of the people out there don't know or even care to know about DiVx or MPEG-4

Of course. They want it to work. They want to click on a joke video someone sends them and have it play... And indeed leave that option there to install everything you could ever need... but for those of us who DO NOT want dated buggy software, why should it be installed if I won't use it?

Why does my Win2k server I built a few days ago to operate as a Web server listen on M$'s netbios ports? Why by default will my IE installation be hijacked. It's called poor programming, but on top of that it's called spreading yourself too thin. Linux is successful because it is extremely focused (some distros are arguably not as much, but the core Linux is).

- start side-track -

I recently installed a 'server' distro. netstat and a port scan shows NO ports open and no services running externally. Good stuff. Then I started SSH and it pops up on port 22. Then I started apache and it open

Re:You're missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever! There is nothing, absolutely nothing, stopping the informed consumer from installing Firefox, Opera, or Lynx on their computer and using it. NOTHING. Those browsers can even be set to take over the http:/// and other URLs if it's somehow desired.

What is the problem? That some consumers aren't informed about those choices? How exactly will making IE or WMP an optional install help with that?

The answer is....it won't. And you're just making useless noise.

Title?

[BorgCopyeditor]

Peeping up windows is illegal in most municipalities.

My pov

[solomonrex]

I don't mind that Wordpad, etc is included in Windows. I mind that they suck. They've updated the games folder more than any other section of Accessories, minus the Media player, for strategic reasons.

M$ bundles stuff to help themselves out, then lets things die when competitors are no longer around.

Like Outlook express, Wordpad, IE, the command shell, the address book and paint. None of these get updated except when M$ needs to defend itself. My beloved Wordpad doesn't have any option for doublespacing, and it's like 10 years now.

Now they're working on Windows Mail, IE7, Monad and a major revision of Office. And only because their profits are threatened. And because their most motivated employees were motivated to go somewhere else (Google) and actually work on cool stuff again.

The accessories folder tells M$'s business history and their current failure. What a mess.

Seceret licenses

[bluGill]

Many of those secret licenses are illegal - Microsoft is a monopoly, and court orders have in the past barred such things. I don't know the details, but in general if they claim Microsoft won't let them do something, you should check with the courts.

Re:how many people actually _like_ windows? I DO!

[Anonymous Coward]

It does in as much as I like using those particular software programs and pieces of hardware. I honestly don't care what's running underneath these things, I want to get work done and have fun on my PC. I guess if Windows let's that happen, then I do like using it. Don't you get that this is what most people care about?

Unix Utils Rocks

[JPyObjC Dude]

If you do not want the bloat of a Cygwin, or want to fall under the radar of sys admins but still need to have Unix command line tools available from MS Command Prompt (aka Werminal), just install Unix Utils - GNU Utilities for win32.

A simple install and just add the wbin directory to your Path env var and presto, you can GNU your little heart out.

Binaries are pretty small and most functionality is there for the pickings (ls, mv, gzip, pwd, touch, grep, cat, tail).

If you don't need any of the Cygwin apps, this is the best way to help you maintain a windoze running various scripts and applications.

Tail is probably the best little app to use on windoze. You can call the app from a shortcut and have a tail window pop up showing you the output of any log file on the server.

Sample shortcut target to tail any log file log `file:~GNUUtil Home dir~\usr\local\wbin\tail.exe -f ~your log file full path and name~`

.:JsD:.

Alternate shells

[poity]

The most noticable positive change you can bring to your Windows setup is to install one of the many shells out there that replace the Explorer interface.

Among your choices are the popular Litestep, GeoShell, Aston, bb4win variants, and others.

bblean, a lite variant of bb4win with integrated window skinning, has been my favorite for a long time. Its menu-based customization makes it fairly easy for newbies to configure, while the plugins and scripting options provide for limitless functionality.

Recompiling Kernels?

[freeweed]

I didn't have to compile/reinstall the kernel in order to GET these graphics drivers

I don't get this. I really, really don't.

In Windows, if you need a new video driver (or any other driver), you download a file, install it, and (typically) reboot.

In Linux, if you need a new video driver (or any other driver), you download a file, install it, and (usually don't have to) reboot. Have to restart X for a video driver, which is almost the same as a reboot in all practical terms, I'll give you that.

Am I missing something? With the advent of kernel modules I haven't had to compile a kernel in YEARS. These days it's a simple apt-get away, or opening an rpm, or what have you. Exactly the same procedure as Windows.

I won't refute the rest of what you say, because I'll be the first to admit that Linux is one serious pain sometimes as application vendors still primarily write Windows-only software.

But I just don't get it. Why do people keep talking about compiling their kernel? Are there any major distributions out there that don't support LKMs?

Re:Recompiling Kernels?

[Lucractius]

Distros nope... Drivers Id say theres a fair few around that arnt coming as convenient LKMs

But that's ok for Apple right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, Apple is plundering FOSS from every direction but that's just fine and dandy.

More games on Windows

[dstyle5]

The main reason I have a Windoze box (in addition to my Redhat box) is the game selection. Yes the Mac does get a few of the bigger releases at the same time as Windows or shortly after (WoW, Doom 3, UT2K4), but many games take a long time to get ported or don't even make it to the Mac. ie. Battlefield 1942 took around 2 years to make it to Mac's after the PC release.

Much better list

[GFPerez]

http://www.techsupportalert.com/best_46_free_utili ties.htm

Delete ftp.exe?

[LlamaDragon]

I'm all for a list of useful open source apps, but a lot of this article seems like silly filler to me. Who really is so bent on being different that they feel the need to delete ftp.exe and notepad.exe and "uninstall" wordpad? I would've been much happier to see a list of good programs laid out categorically with some bulleted Good Features.

But then they wouldn't be able to make you click through 10 pages of advertising, and they'd miss out on those godawful ad links...

*grumble*

I do Everything Backwards

[ChaoticCoyote]

Well, not everything... ;)

Most people try to make their Linux systems compatible with Windows. I work the other direction — I have a specific quite of free software that makes my Windows XP computer compatible with my Linux systems. I run Abiword, Gnumeric, Inkscape, and GIMP on my Windows laptop, so it can work with data on my primary workstation that runs Gentoo Linux.

I'm not fond of Open Office (I have yet to try the 2.0 betas, though). When KOffice is working nicely on KDE, I'll take a look at it, though I'm generally happy with the tools listed above. I do have a copy of Office 2003 Pro (legal), mostly for those instances where a customer requires some very Microsoft-specific operation (an Access database, or a Word co with a nasty VBA macro). But 99% of the time, I use the free tools, and life is good.

Re:I do Everything Backwards

[ChaoticCoyote]

Scott, you knucklehead! Please read "When Koffice is working nicely on KDE" as "When Koffice is working nicely on Windows." Dear gods, I even proofed the durned thing.

I'll blame it on the sunburn. Hint: After shaving one's heqad, remember to wear a hat while chasing iguanas on a Florida beach. ;)

Re:I do Everything Backwards

[tirnacopu]

Very good point you're making - although this is not what you were trying to say: 99% of the world's computing population may use Microsoft applications 1% of the time. Yet all of them must pay 100% of the price. Having a huge installed base really helps. A monopoly doesn't hurt either.

Re:DiskDATA not diskspace

[saskboy]

I found the program on my Windows XP still, and it is definitely called DiskData not diskspace which is a compression program if I recall correctly now.

Replace Audition

[RoadOfTheDevil]

Is anyone doing a good multitrack editor in the style of Adobe Audition? And don't tell me Audacity. I mean a really good multitrack editor with loop editing and the whole shebang. Audacity is great until you need to do 20 tracks or something like that.

Redundant? Short-sighted?

[belg4mit]

If you're going to cover some of the stuff MS left out why not include things they wrote but didn't include? i.e; the various power tools including the Send To extension. The listed Task Switch XP Pro has
a power tool counterpart...

What about OEMs?

[kbielefe]

I can understand why Microsoft doesn't bundle OSS with their boxed sets, but what I don't understand is why OEMs don't do this on new computers. Every computer I've ever bought comes with a certain set of non-Microsoft applications, most of which are of much lower quality than open source alternatives. We can debate the quality of Microsoft Office vs. OpenOffice until the cows come home, but OpenOffice vs. wordpad is no contest. Same for gimp vs. paint. Just about any graphical ftp client would be an improvement (not just for techies; my wife uses an ftp client all the time). And there are many open source games that are a vast improvement over the default solitaire/minesweeper/pinball installation. It seems like especially low-end OEMs like eMachines (are they still around?) could improve their image by including apps like these by default. Is this another result of Microsoft strong-arm tactics, or has no one thought of it yet?

Re:What about OEMs?

[doubledoh]

Call me ignorant, but I thought that you can't sell proprietary software and bundle in OS software (conflicting licenses). I thought that was the whole point of OS software (especially GNU type licenses) that make it a point that it has to be free? Maybe if they used BSD software...but not GNU.

I await patiently to be corrected.

Re:What about OEMs?

[kbielefe]

From the GPL:

In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License.

In other words, you can put them together on the same hard drive. It's only a derivative work that comes under the GPL.

Re:What about OEMs?

[doubledoh]

Like I said, "call me ignorant." In other words, thanks for the clarification. I honestly didn't know the answer. If only all my questions were so swiftly executed...

LiteStep

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple of years ago I used LiteStep as my shell in windows. It did some really nifty stuff. Config was manual in a text file and took forever, but once I got it, it worked beautifully. Is this project still around and does anyone use it?

And oh, yeah. . .

[kfg]

But did you ever play Total Annihilation?

Great game, but AOE gets me where my ancient history geek lives.

KFG

Deleting unwanted windows stuff

[hackwrench]

xerox\nwwia, among other things is protected by the C:\windows\system32\sfc*.* files that are loaded by winlogon.exe, I went into safe mode, killed the services winlogon was running, did a shutdown -a to abort the immediate shutdown windows wanted, killed winlogon, (maybe with another shutdown -a, this accout isn't strictly accurate) deleted the sfc files, met with a blue screen of death, but it rebooted and came up with pretty much no more protected files and directories. I deleted WMP (actually before the SFC discovery), which, possibly because sfc was still there meant I had to delete backup files in subdirectories of the windows directory first or they'd just come back, deleted the wmp*.* files in system32, discovered that Microsoft for some strange reason snuck a wmp file into the inf directory...I may be talking about wmplayer.adm, though I'm not absolutely sure.

I moved all the screensavers and games out of system32 into their own directories and I put the games help files in the same directory as the game...may move the console tools, though their interaction with other programs is an issue. Also, Program Files or bin, for that matter is a bad idea. Tools should be grouped by function, that way you can have an easier time of telling when certain tools are less useful and that you still have them.

How to make another editor the default one?

[johnnybaluba]

I'm using emacs (tailored and equal on both linux and windows), and would very much like that one to become the default text editor. Notepad is almost useless, and wordpad doesn't really cut it either.... I've tried to edit the registry (searched for FileExt, I think) and change the programs there but it didn't really work. Maybe I missed something or is there a clean way of doing it?

Re:How to make another editor the default one?

[NerdMachine]

To set another editor as your default, search the HKEY_CLASSES pseudo-hive in regedit for notepad.exe (not the /p version, that's for printing). You'll find it in a few places - once for each type of file that has an action ascociated to it (txt, ini, etc). Replace it with something like

"C:\Program Files\Bloated Editor\emacs.exe" "%L"

Opera

[XO]

don't forget Opera. Web browser, chat, email, in half the size of Firefox, smaller, faster, better.

Litestep is on the brink of death allready....

[Anonymous Coward]

Tom's hardware may have dedicated a page of the article to it, but the so called "very active Litestep community" is on the brink of collapse. Theres only one core developer left, who has promised to make one last version to basically 'see this thing out'...

http://www.ls-universe.info/comment.php?comment.ne ws.194

Re:Cygwin in general...

[ImaLamer]

You're right Cygwin rocks hardcore. I wish there was more development for it out there.

As far as an SSH client goes, why not try the SSH server? Easy to configure and install under Cygwin/XP (even Home) and allows for tunneled connections to your desktop. Secure VNC? Done! Secure file transfers? SCP to the rescue! SSHD running on Windows just rocks - I wouldn't ever leave my home if it wasn't installed on my desktop computer.

When you add on Cygwin, Cygwin-X and the rest of the GNU tools to Windows you start to forget which box you are using. I love it, if only it could just take over the entire User Land! Just let the Windows kernel run underneath with all the things that come with it like the HAL and etc and give me a GNU desktop. RMS might scream, but I'd be happy.

I like Windows XP.

[Idontpostmuch]

Windows is idiot proof and therefore user-oriented. Some linux environments are getting there, but XP is already there. Why edit a config file to use dual monitors? Why use apt-get or synaptic as a middleman, and be limited to only the programs in a repository (no matter how impresive it is.) Why open a terminal, ever? Why can't I use programs that come with my textbooks.

I believe in capitalism. Microsoft is held responsible to users by their money. Open source is holds itself responsible to users (sometimes) out of the goodness of its heart.

Granted, I havent tried very many of the open source operating systems. I've only used...

Mandrake 10
Knoppix
Ubuntu
Debian Sarge
Damn Small
Puppy
Red Hat 9
Vector
Mepis
FreeBSD
NetBSD
Freesbie
SUSE 9
Slackware 10
Feather
VLOS
Progeny
Beatrix ...so I've only really scratched the surface.

When software is tailored to hardware by vendors, everydoby wins. If they want to close the source, fine. Open source has its place. The base system on my laptop is not one of those places.

Having said all that, I am no linux hater nor an MS fanboy. I simply like to use microsoft more. This could change in the future. Also, to me, windows would be weak and expensive without OSS such the software TFA discusses. Keep up the good work, hackers.

I turn off themes altogether

[hackwrench]

I turned off the themes service... can't find the way to uninstall it completely though.. there is an official way to uninstall services, but it requires .net which I blew away long ago.

Direct linking to Litestep installer?

[minus23]

Not sure it was a good idea in the article to direct link to Litestep installer. I wonder how many people are going to just run it and reboot and not know what the heck is going on? Or how to uninstall it... or where to find the system.ini and change the "shell=" line to "explorer.exe" or how many will misstype it and say "shell=explorerr.exe" and reboot and get scared by the warnings to re-install windows.

Just saying it could have had a warning at least. Or a "READ FURTHER BEFORE INSTALLING".

That said... I think Litestep is great. I wanna see how it's progressed as it's been a few years since I've messed with it. Grrr .step.rc.

Improving Windows software.

[OgGreeb]

What I need is a better version of Minesweeper.

My windows environment

[lahvak]

I have been using Linux and various other Unices for years. I actually never used windows seriously until my current job, I went straight from DOS to Unix, then to Solaris, and then to Linux, with couple of BSD flavors for short periods of time sprinkled here and there.

In my current job I have a windows laptop for my office computer. I suffered for a while with the user interface and lack of any decent software, but after a while I found and installed bunch of programs that made it actually possible for me to get my work done. Curiously enough, lot of them are the exact same programs I have been using on Linux for years. Now most of the time, my windows box feels sort of like my linux box at home, as long as I don't try to do something special, and as long as I don't need to interact with the actual system (configure things, etc.). The worst problem is keybindings. It seems that in windows, the system reserves many key combinations so I cannot use them for my custom keybindings. Unfortunately, many of those seem to be exactly the combinations I have been using for years in my own custom FVWM setup.

Here are the applications I use on windows:

1) cygwin. From that, I mostly use rxvt, bash or zsh (I am a zsh junkie, but bash seems to work better for me on windows), and grep, less and couple of similar basic commands. Oh, and ssh and ncftp.

2) VirtuaWin with several modules for desktop switching and some basic window managment. Can't be compared to FVWM, but at least makes the system usable.

3) TXMouse (http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/nt/TXMouse/) for focus follow mouse and X11-like cut and paste. This is absolutely wonderful application, which I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion yet.

4) proTeXt (http://www.tug.org/protext/) for my TeX distro. I used TeXLive before, which had more packages, but proTeXt integrates with windows better, and is based on MikTeX. For some reason, almost all windows applications that use TeX in any way expect to find MikTeX, and come preconfigured for it. With TeXLive, I usually had to do whole bunch of changes.

5) Vim with LaTeX-suite. I have been using this for a while on Linux, and I was very pleased to discover that it works just as well on Windows.

6) IPE (http://ipe.compgeom.org/) for my drawings. Again something I have been using on Linux for a while.

7) LyX (http://www.lyx.org/) when I don't feel like editing TeX by hand. I used to use LyX quite a bit before discovering LaTeX-suite for vim. Now I find using vim much faster and more flexible, but I think LyX should definitely be mentioned in this discussion.

8) Treeline (http://www.bellz.org/treeline/) for quick outlining, planning, to-do lists, notes etc. This is the only program which I didn't use on Linux before, and which I picked specifically because it works on both Windows and Linux.

9) Gimp and Inkscape for any graphics work. I have those installed, but rarely use them on Windows. For some reason I prefer to wait till I get home. I guess for this type of work, the windows user interface still gets too much in the way. Maybe it's also because it's a laptop. Also, the MathMap plugin for Gimp doesn't work on windows, and I use it a lot.

Anyway, with these, I can get most of my work done without the os getting too much in the way. If I need something extra, or something unusual, I just wait and do it at home.

Re:Cygwin in general...

[Lucractius]

well it could be done

whatever that Linux Distro that ran linux a background thingie on windows was, and using some registry hacks to open a fullscreen Cygwin X session to access it via the local loopback. Windows box, Running almost totaly as a linux one!

or you could check out the slow (tar drips slower god damn it) progress from the GeNToo (specific capitalisation implied there) team trying to get YAGPTAK (Yet Another Gentoo Port To Another Kernel) working... but personaly i wish them, the Portaris, and the Gentoo BSD teams a hell of a lot of luck Since truly thats what i want. I want choise of Kernel, then choise of userland. I want to emerge OO.org for windows on my windows box, I want to emerge for my FreeBSD box those rare few apps that arent in the ports tree (this would also help ports too id say, mmm and the Circle would be complete, Ports Begets Portage, then portage becomes one with ports )

i think im rambling now!

File Viewer (Explorer Replacement)

[sfm]

For GUI based directory navigation and file manipulation, the shareware program "V" http://www.fileviewer.com/ can't be beat. Mostly Intuitive: you can run it without reading the manual, flexible: lets you easily view both large/small/text/hex/data files, and FAST. Runs on Win95 thru XP and beats the hell out of Explorer

--Just my $0.02

One word,

[trigggl]

Scorched3d is a game that works on Linux, Windows, FreeBSD and any other operating system you want to try. So far, I've run it on XP, Slackware(rpm2tgz) and Debian(alien). The source is freely available, but it's easier to just use the Windows installer or the rpm for Linux.

It's a 3d artillary game and it's very addictive. There are plenty of online servers to play against other people. Some of my coworkers play it at lunch. Even on my locked down XP box at work, it can be easily installed into a personal folder.

Re: Undocumented APIs

[MC68000]

read this

http://www.users.qwest.net/~eballen1/nt.sekrits.ht ml

Average User?

[mike.newton]

Does the average user really need "a powerful command shell," "up to 9 desktops," or "a powerful FTP client"?

Yes, I might want some of those things, you might want some of them, but the average user? I don't think so. Ask your parents or your manager at work when the last time they uploaded a file via FTP was. Or if they've ever needed 9 desktops. Or the ability to do real shell scripting and set up a cron job.

Windows GIMP? Are you joking?

[julesh]

Is it just me that thinks the Windows version of GIMP is the biggest POS ever to be bundled up with a supposed compatibility layer for an OS other than the one it was written for and described as a native application?

I mean, it doesn't even make a pretence of following windows conventions:

* It puts its per-user temporary files under "c:\documents and settings\username\.gimp", including its temporary files. That's a big no-no; the user profile directory is highly likely to be located on a network server. These files should be in ...\username\Application Data\Gimp and ...\username\Local Settings\Gimp.

* The open and save dialog boxes don't work right. There's nowhere to type filenames, so you can't open files with a UNC filename. If you double click on a shortcut it tries to open the shortcut, not the file/folder it points to. There's no way to use a user-specified file filter in the open dialog, so if you just want to see 'a*.jpg' you're out of luck.

* While starting up, it runs hundreds of processes (one per installed filter). While this kind of behaviour is OK on most Unix systems, process startup is *very* expensive on Windows. The filters should probably be DLLs that have a main procedure that's executed in a thread; it would be a much more efficient implementation.

* It uses an MDI interface without an MDI top level window. The menu is associated with a tool palette window. Closing that window causes all of the others to close. This is utterly non-standard behaviour for Windows, which has a standard solution to this problem that GIMP doesn't use (presumably because it's very hard to implement in X).

I think GIMP is a fine application for Unix-like systems, but just because you can make it run under Windows doesn't mean it's a good Windows one.

Re:Cygwin in general...

[ImaLamer]

I want choise of Kernel, then choise of userland.

This is exactly what I want. I would like to see people working any GPL project to look at being able to port them to Windows, BSD, Macintosh, what have you. The GNU Tools compile under CYGWIN, of course, and that seems to look like the best start. If GeNToo can replicate that concept and then move the rest of the software along then you are looking at replicating only the framework to other platforms. CYGWIN and GeNToo can both help Linux users (and everyone) by maturing the framework for installing packages. I like the idea of different sources of packages - let's keep that. But RPM, Gentoo's Portage system and any other package system can take a fresh approach by trying to make installation seamless to a Windows user (and even those savvy Mac users). If they can do that there is no excuse for not having a clean, easy, desktop friendly Linux package system.

I see Gentoo's basic approach the best looking solution, but CYGWIN hasn't failed me yet. Of course, I still can't get XScreensaver to compile on XP Home (I know why, but there isn't anything I can do about it I assume). The idea that I can bring in any source code, compile it, and run it seems attractive. Although that would be dangerous on a machine where everyone has to be the administrator.

You can replace the Windows shell, by default it is "explorer.exe" of course. Being able to replace it with an actual X server (or script that launches the server and client...) and look, feel and play like I'm in KDE or Gnome would be great. Hmm... adding another user and making that their shell won't hurt... sounds like something to try.

I beg for the day...

Oh my god

[skryche]

Then why put it on at all, foo'?