"If your logic were correct, the US should have attacked Saudi Arabia also or instead, especially since most of the terrorists that destroyed the WTC were from there."
Right, so how come we attacked iraq? How come the Iraqis deserved freedom and democracy more then the Saudis?
"Afghanistan of course has lot of oil don't they? "
No but afghanistan is crucial in order to efficiently transfer the oil harvested in the caspian sea to warm water ports. The pipeline construction has already started!
"I sincerely hope that none of the enemies of the US ever make an extreme enough move to cause retaliation of such intensity."
The US was attacked by saudis and it retaliated by invading and occupying Iraq. I don't think this acts as a deterrent to saudis.
"The radical Muslims the world over hate the tiny democratic nation of Israel with a passion and would like to wipe them off the map."
OF course they would. SO what? Why should I care about the isralies? We already give them six to 12 billion a year in military aid (more then the budget of NASA!) and they have over 300 nuclear weapons. You would think that with all that they would be able to defend themselves no? Is israel so weak and helpless that we have to invade and occupy Iraq in order to protect it? I don't think so.
"That will eventually lead the final war for mankind, called Armageddon, named after a valley just north of Jerusalem."
Why? Because God told you so? WHy can't israel simply bomb the shit out of all arab countries with conventional weapons?
The fact is that Israel is the most powerful country in the world because any attack against israel will instantly effect a US response which will cause absolute genocide against the country that attacked israel. Nobody will attack israel because they know that the US will kill every single human being on the planet if it has to in order to defend israel.
By the way I noticed you did not answer my question and instead went on about israel. I will ask it again.
How come the iraqies got to go first. How come they deserve freedom and democracy more then any other people in the world. More even then people starving to death or being murdered by the millions?
1) All this "churning" you speak of add friction to the economy. Sure haliburton is making a lot of money but the US is also running a huge deficit which impacts the currency, inflation, and all kinds of other factors. All that friction slows the economy down.
2) It makes businesses less willing to take risks. That's a biggie because it stunts innovation.
An oddity of the Enlglish language is that the plurilization of the you is you. I suppose I could have used the expression "yall" but then I would have to shoot myself.
I presume that nobody is playing starcraft at work. LInux would be suitable for corporations and the govt where in he hand of adults it would be used to try and get stuff done.
What the fuck? You have already spent 200 billion occupying a country and you can't spend a few thousand counting the dead?
Has it ever occured to you that the money spent building schools and hospitals for Iraqis could have been spent building schools and hospitals in your neighborhood?
200 billion buys a lot of books for your kids. I mean what are your kids going to do with dead iraqis?
So why saddam? There are lots of bad people in the world. Take Turkmenistan for example, they have a guy who is clearly nuts and has declared himself president for life and a spiritual leader. He has built golden statutes of himself and is planning on building a castle out of ice in the desert. Surely the poor suffering Turkmens needs freedom and democracy. Why aren't you calling for an invasion of Tukmenistan? Why do you hate democracy and freedom so much?
How about Sudan? Why aren't you advocating invading and occupying sudan. There is a massive genocide going on and those people deserve to live don't they? Why do you hate life so much? Why do you get off when people in Sudan die?
And how about the chinese or the cubans. YOu must love communism because I don't see you calling for an invasion and occupation of them.
Oh I almost forgot about north korea. You must love tyranical governments run by madman. How come the north koreans don't deserve freedom and democracy.
Here is a question you won't answer.
Q: Why are the iraqis so damned special that they got to be first in line for freedom and democracy?
You won't have to listen to me whining, but you may hear me laughing or mocking you while you decend further and further down the road to hell you are on.
"Whoa buddy. I didn't say that you were un-american because you disagree with the president. You did, however, say how lousy the US was. It sounds pretty much as if you just dislike Americans as a whole."
That's not true. I dislike America, I dislike what it has become. I actively dislike the half of america who thinks george bush is a messenger from god sent to establish a christian nation and I am sorely disapointed in the 70% of americans who could not get off their ass and vote a clearly stupid and dangerous man out of office.
I am leaving the country because I truly believe that America will not turn around from it's march towards fascims and theocracy.
"Terrorists, al qaida or not, have been killing Americans for decades. They all have declared us dogs, and a large % of them have declared open war, calling for all muslims to kill Americans wherever they can. We ignored it for far too long."
Right. You are correct. Only if the US was waging war on those terrorists!. Wouldn't that be great!
"1) harbored terrorists, and in a world where terrorists are striking on the scale of 9/11, ALL TERRORISTS DESERVE NO MERCY. A lot of countrys in the middle east meet this criteria."
Right, only if we were actually fighting terrorists, that would be awesome. Instead we are fighting to keep a country occupied and killing people who don't like the fact that their country was invaded.
"is right next to Iran, the true seat of fundamentalist terrorist politics."
So are Russia, Turkey, and Israel. I guess this means you want to kill all turks, jews, and russians too.
"Bush probably percieved Iraq as an easier target to get political support behind, and probably hoped that large US bases surrounding Iraq on 2 sides would discourage Iranian support of extremists."
Nah, he wanted the following. In order of importance to him.
1) To fulfill biblican prophecies so that Jesus would come back. 2) Oil. 3) To show his dad that he wasn't the fuckup son anymore by finishing his war for him. 4) Because cheney told him to.
Actually al-quada seems to be doing that very well. They simply make some threats and the US spends tons of money trying to secure things. Whether it's the superbowl or the new years at times square all big events now cost several times more to secure then before. I don't see it ever ending either do you?
Now that you mention it I am in the process of moving. After Bush was re-elected I decided that I didn't want to live in the US anymore. There are lots of wonderful places in the world to live in and if you are decent programmer you can get a job anywhere with no trouble. In fact the demand for IT workers in the rest of the world is much better then in the US. I just got back to the US after traveling in Europe, southeast asia, and the pacific reigon and I have found spectacular places to live and work. Beatiful countries full of sun and sand and opportunity (not to mention amazing food and cofee).
Like you I would like to encourage people to move out of the US too. Why would I want to stay in a country where there was a whole television network trying to convince people that I was un-american because I disagree with the president? I don't believe in staying where I am not wanted.
You realize that al-quada was based in afghanistan and not iraq right? Iraq was a secular socialist state and was hated by osama. Osama refered to Saddam as "the communist" which is a supreme insult to an arab because the communists are godless and they invaded afghanistan.
Ansar al islam did not attack the US.
You saw a sattelite picture of some land. Someone told you it was a terrorist training camp. You nodded your head and said "OK".
I have no doubt the US would kill billions of people if that's what it took to prop up their economy. As you point out our nation has no morals or ethics against killing lots of people to get what we want of even to merely make ourselves feel better.
Having said that I don't think it would be painless either. Unlike afghanistan or iraq the next war might cause massive civilian casualties on our side. The american people are perfectly happy to wage war as long as all the civillians that are killed are on their side but if they start dying it might collapse the country into a civil war.
You have to remember that we are not really a unified country. We are in a very real sense two countries who despise each other.
I don't think the president of the US gives a flying fuck about slashdot or it's parent company do you? You have to boycott the people who can make a difference by yelling at the president and being heard.
"Nice 100,000 figure, by the way, very big, very rounded off. Where did you get it?"
It's a rough figure. The US doesn't have a truly free press and the military refuses to disclose how many people it killed and frequently lies about the figure when it does say anything. Just recently the fact the CIA had secret prisons all over the world came to light.
The US govt is extremely secretive about the number of people it kills and the number of people it tortures and/or send away to be tortured by other people.
Having said that it is possible to gather some figures from external sources such as hospitals, local observers, press from other countries which are more free to report what is happening, etc.
The 100,000 figure is a guess but it strikes me as being a bit low actually. In the first gulf war the US estimated that it killed 200,000 people. This war has been going on for a lot longer and is being wages in Afghanistan and Iraq (as well as the rest of the world covertly).
Take Afghanistan for example. The US had admitted to killing three thousand innocent people there (and has agreed to pay renumeration). If we presume that the US military is highly accurate and is trying to minimize civillian deaths as much as possible we can make a conjecture the it only makes a mistake and kills civillians 5% of the time (95% accuracy is pretty good). This means that 60,000 people were killed in Afghanistan alone. If the US military is more accurate (say 99% accurate) the figure goes up to 300,000.
"Contrast that with the multiples of that figure that the deposed dictator is confirmed killing."
It would be an interesting statistic to compile I think. I wonder who is responsible for the deaths of more human beings, the Bush familiy or Saddam? It might be hard to decide considering most of the people Saddam killed were Iranians and we were helping him. I think it's telling that Saddam was not charged with the massacre of the Kurds or other genocides he comitted during the reagan/bush years. That would have been a trial of the century. The US wisely decided not to charge him for those crimes or else all kinds of fun facts would have come into play.
"The entire planet ows a debt of gratitude to the US for a lot of the stuff it's done."
I don't think so. Saddam wasn't really bothering anybody except his neighbors.
"Since you clearly enjoy supporting oppressive regimes "
Typical american black and white thinking. Unfortunately our education system is so inept that most americans are unable to process any degree of complexity whatsoever. It's either America rules or you must love terrorists. It's also telling of of how crappy the american education system is when people like you have no idea that the US has and is supporting many many opressive regimes. Why just recently azarbaijan ruling govt rounded up the leaders of the opposition parties just before the coming elections. Alas they have oil and Bush is supporting their opressive regime (along with the opressive regimes of pakistan, china, turkmenistan, afghanistan etc).
"Not to mention the possibility of WMD that Saddam had - and whether he had them is irrelevant, looking at the hide-and-reveal game he was constantly playing with the US, or the sponsoring of terrorism (confirmed again, although not with Al Queda), or the brutality of his regime."
There was no possiblity that Saddam had WMDs, that's something the president made up to in order to go war. He wasn't trying to hide anything either, the UN weapons inspecters were there and they were allowed rapid movement and unfettered access to the entire country including Saddams palaces and govt buildings. As for supporting terrorism it was no worse then the terrorists the America was/is supporting.
I think the US would get the short end of that stick. Without the ability to effectively communicate with china and india most american companies would immediately grind down to a screeching and painful halt. Without effective communications with china and europe your automobile and electronics industry would be severly crippled. Virtually everything you buy is made outside the US, that's why we are running such a huge trade deficit.
What's worse once America decides that it does not want to belong to the rest of the world the arab nations and china will insist on paymets in euros which will completely destroy the demand for the dollar and plunge america into deep depression that only a worldwide conflagration will cure. US will then engage in a massive and bloody war with the rest of the world in order to force them to use the dollar and to prop up it's own industry. Billions will die, it won't be pretty.
"If we don't like what the US government does, we can ask our governments to negotiate with them to change their behaviour. "
YOu can do much more then that. You can stop buying american products, stop watching american movies, stop listening to american music and stop playing american games.
The president of the United States doesn't give a fuck what you want or what your govt wants. He does however get on his knees to suckle the CEO of pepsi, coke, nike, disney and all other large corporations for some of that fine campaign finance milk. Get corporate america involved and you will see a big impact on how the US govt acts.
If that was true they would have stopped torturing people. Unfortunately torture is still officially supported by the Israeli govt and practiced by mossad (as well as the CIA of course)
In his book Palm Sunday Kurt Vonnegut talks about a project he completed in school where he graphed the happiness curve of the main character over the course of the book/story. He examined many popular stories and found out that all of the stories he looked at shared only a handful of common graphs. It's been a while but I remember him saying that the book of genesis has the same graph as cinderalla for example.
Whoever patents the five or six storylines that are the basis for virtually all books will become richer then Bill Gates.
The neat thing about this is that you don't have to actuall write the books yourself. The patent office punishes the people who get off their ass and do things while rewarding people who get in the patent line early and patent things they have never built or made.
"Funny how when Slashdot talks about Google and the Summer of Code, everyone's jumping up in joy praising Google for their work while when Microsoft does something beneficial to consumers, someone HAS to nitpick about the motives."
How do you know this will be beneficial to the consumer? Given the unethical corporate culture at MS the chances of it being good for the consumer is near zero.
Slashdot Mirror
"If your logic were correct, the US should have attacked Saudi Arabia also or instead, especially since most of the terrorists that destroyed the WTC were from there."
Right, so how come we attacked iraq? How come the Iraqis deserved freedom and democracy more then the Saudis?
"Afghanistan of course has lot of oil don't they? "
No but afghanistan is crucial in order to efficiently transfer the oil harvested in the caspian sea to warm water ports. The pipeline construction has already started!
"I sincerely hope that none of the enemies of the US ever make an extreme enough move to cause retaliation of such intensity."
The US was attacked by saudis and it retaliated by invading and occupying Iraq. I don't think this acts as a deterrent to saudis.
"The radical Muslims the world over hate the tiny democratic nation of Israel with a passion and would like to wipe them off the map."
OF course they would. SO what? Why should I care about the isralies? We already give them six to 12 billion a year in military aid (more then the budget of NASA!) and they have over 300 nuclear weapons. You would think that with all that they would be able to defend themselves no? Is israel so weak and helpless that we have to invade and occupy Iraq in order to protect it? I don't think so.
"That will eventually lead the final war for mankind, called Armageddon, named after a valley just north of Jerusalem."
Why? Because God told you so? WHy can't israel simply bomb the shit out of all arab countries with conventional weapons?
The fact is that Israel is the most powerful country in the world because any attack against israel will instantly effect a US response which will cause absolute genocide against the country that attacked israel. Nobody will attack israel because they know that the US will kill every single human being on the planet if it has to in order to defend israel.
By the way I noticed you did not answer my question and instead went on about israel. I will ask it again.
How come the iraqies got to go first. How come they deserve freedom and democracy more then any other people in the world. More even then people starving to death or being murdered by the millions?
The de-facto desktop is already gnome. I can't think of one major distribution that does not set up gnome as the default desktop.
When you mistype a URL in IE doesn't it go to MSN and do a search?
1) All this "churning" you speak of add friction to the economy. Sure haliburton is making a lot of money but the US is also running a huge deficit which impacts the currency, inflation, and all kinds of other factors. All that friction slows the economy down.
2) It makes businesses less willing to take risks. That's a biggie because it stunts innovation.
An oddity of the Enlglish language is that the plurilization of the you is you. I suppose I could have used the expression "yall" but then I would have to shoot myself.
I presume that nobody is playing starcraft at work. LInux would be suitable for corporations and the govt where in he hand of adults it would be used to try and get stuff done.
What the fuck? You have already spent 200 billion occupying a country and you can't spend a few thousand counting the dead?
Has it ever occured to you that the money spent building schools and hospitals for Iraqis could have been spent building schools and hospitals in your neighborhood?
200 billion buys a lot of books for your kids. I mean what are your kids going to do with dead iraqis?
So why saddam? There are lots of bad people in the world. Take Turkmenistan for example, they have a guy who is clearly nuts and has declared himself president for life and a spiritual leader. He has built golden statutes of himself and is planning on building a castle out of ice in the desert. Surely the poor suffering Turkmens needs freedom and democracy. Why aren't you calling for an invasion of Tukmenistan? Why do you hate democracy and freedom so much?
How about Sudan? Why aren't you advocating invading and occupying sudan. There is a massive genocide going on and those people deserve to live don't they? Why do you hate life so much? Why do you get off when people in Sudan die?
And how about the chinese or the cubans. YOu must love communism because I don't see you calling for an invasion and occupation of them.
Oh I almost forgot about north korea. You must love tyranical governments run by madman. How come the north koreans don't deserve freedom and democracy.
Here is a question you won't answer.
Q: Why are the iraqis so damned special that they got to be first in line for freedom and democracy?
A: Because they have oil.
You won't have to listen to me whining, but you may hear me laughing or mocking you while you decend further and further down the road to hell you are on.
Right, just like they do from me ya moron. Am I going to boycott myself?
"Whoa buddy. I didn't say that you were un-american because you disagree with the president. You did, however, say how lousy the US was. It sounds pretty much as if you just dislike Americans as a whole."
That's not true. I dislike America, I dislike what it has become. I actively dislike the half of america who thinks george bush is a messenger from god sent to establish a christian nation and I am sorely disapointed in the 70% of americans who could not get off their ass and vote a clearly stupid and dangerous man out of office.
I am leaving the country because I truly believe that America will not turn around from it's march towards fascims and theocracy.
"Be a man and give up your citizenship while you're at it. After all, if the country is soooo bad, why would you want to be a citizen of it?"
I proably won't do that. I figure the US owes me and that's just a little payment. I do plan on traveling on another passport though.
"Or will yoube a chickensit and keep it, so you can go running to the US Embassy as soon as you get in a bit of trouble?"
Why would I get in trouble? I have never gotten in trouble in the US and I am probably less likely to get in trouble in a less corrupt country.
"Terrorists, al qaida or not, have been killing Americans for decades. They all have declared us dogs, and a large % of them have declared open war, calling for all muslims to kill Americans wherever they can. We ignored it for far too long."
Right. You are correct. Only if the US was waging war on those terrorists!. Wouldn't that be great!
"1) harbored terrorists, and in a world where terrorists are striking on the scale of 9/11, ALL TERRORISTS DESERVE NO MERCY. A lot of countrys in the middle east meet this criteria."
Right, only if we were actually fighting terrorists, that would be awesome. Instead we are fighting to keep a country occupied and killing people who don't like the fact that their country was invaded.
"is right next to Iran, the true seat of fundamentalist terrorist politics."
So are Russia, Turkey, and Israel. I guess this means you want to kill all turks, jews, and russians too.
"Bush probably percieved Iraq as an easier target to get political support behind, and probably hoped that large US bases surrounding Iraq on 2 sides would discourage Iranian support of extremists."
Nah, he wanted the following. In order of importance to him.
1) To fulfill biblican prophecies so that Jesus would come back.
2) Oil.
3) To show his dad that he wasn't the fuckup son anymore by finishing his war for him.
4) Because cheney told him to.
Be careful, those unarmed hippies are probably a part of the intellectual elite. This means some of them have degrees in chemistry and biology.
Actually al-quada seems to be doing that very well. They simply make some threats and the US spends tons of money trying to secure things. Whether it's the superbowl or the new years at times square all big events now cost several times more to secure then before. I don't see it ever ending either do you?
Now that you mention it I am in the process of moving. After Bush was re-elected I decided that I didn't want to live in the US anymore. There are lots of wonderful places in the world to live in and if you are decent programmer you can get a job anywhere with no trouble. In fact the demand for IT workers in the rest of the world is much better then in the US. I just got back to the US after traveling in Europe, southeast asia, and the pacific reigon and I have found spectacular places to live and work. Beatiful countries full of sun and sand and opportunity (not to mention amazing food and cofee).
Like you I would like to encourage people to move out of the US too. Why would I want to stay in a country where there was a whole television network trying to convince people that I was un-american because I disagree with the president? I don't believe in staying where I am not wanted.
Some things you seem to be confused about.
You realize that al-quada was based in afghanistan and not iraq right? Iraq was a secular socialist state and was hated by osama. Osama refered to Saddam as "the communist" which is a supreme insult to an arab because the communists are godless and they invaded afghanistan.
Ansar al islam did not attack the US.
You saw a sattelite picture of some land. Someone told you it was a terrorist training camp. You nodded your head and said "OK".
I have no doubt the US would kill billions of people if that's what it took to prop up their economy. As you point out our nation has no morals or ethics against killing lots of people to get what we want of even to merely make ourselves feel better.
Having said that I don't think it would be painless either. Unlike afghanistan or iraq the next war might cause massive civilian casualties on our side. The american people are perfectly happy to wage war as long as all the civillians that are killed are on their side but if they start dying it might collapse the country into a civil war.
You have to remember that we are not really a unified country. We are in a very real sense two countries who despise each other.
I don't think the president of the US gives a flying fuck about slashdot or it's parent company do you? You have to boycott the people who can make a difference by yelling at the president and being heard.
"Nice 100,000 figure, by the way, very big, very rounded off. Where did you get it?"
It's a rough figure. The US doesn't have a truly free press and the military refuses to disclose how many people it killed and frequently lies about the figure when it does say anything. Just recently the fact the CIA had secret prisons all over the world came to light.
The US govt is extremely secretive about the number of people it kills and the number of people it tortures and/or send away to be tortured by other people.
Having said that it is possible to gather some figures from external sources such as hospitals, local observers, press from other countries which are more free to report what is happening, etc.
The 100,000 figure is a guess but it strikes me as being a bit low actually. In the first gulf war the US estimated that it killed 200,000 people. This war has been going on for a lot longer and is being wages in Afghanistan and Iraq (as well as the rest of the world covertly).
Take Afghanistan for example. The US had admitted to killing three thousand innocent people there (and has agreed to pay renumeration). If we presume that the US military is highly accurate and is trying to minimize civillian deaths as much as possible we can make a conjecture the it only makes a mistake and kills civillians 5% of the time (95% accuracy is pretty good). This means that 60,000 people were killed in Afghanistan alone. If the US military is more accurate (say 99% accurate) the figure goes up to 300,000.
"Contrast that with the multiples of that figure that the deposed dictator is confirmed killing."
It would be an interesting statistic to compile I think. I wonder who is responsible for the deaths of more human beings, the Bush familiy or Saddam? It might be hard to decide considering most of the people Saddam killed were Iranians and we were helping him. I think it's telling that Saddam was not charged with the massacre of the Kurds or other genocides he comitted during the reagan/bush years. That would have been a trial of the century. The US wisely decided not to charge him for those crimes or else all kinds of fun facts would have come into play.
"The entire planet ows a debt of gratitude to the US for a lot of the stuff it's done."
I don't think so. Saddam wasn't really bothering anybody except his neighbors.
"Since you clearly enjoy supporting oppressive regimes "
Typical american black and white thinking. Unfortunately our education system is so inept that most americans are unable to process any degree of complexity whatsoever. It's either America rules or you must love terrorists. It's also telling of of how crappy the american education system is when people like you have no idea that the US has and is supporting many many opressive regimes. Why just recently azarbaijan ruling govt rounded up the leaders of the opposition parties just before the coming elections. Alas they have oil and Bush is supporting their opressive regime (along with the opressive regimes of pakistan, china, turkmenistan, afghanistan etc).
"Not to mention the possibility of WMD that Saddam had - and whether he had them is irrelevant, looking at the hide-and-reveal game he was constantly playing with the US, or the sponsoring of terrorism (confirmed again, although not with Al Queda), or the brutality of his regime."
There was no possiblity that Saddam had WMDs, that's something the president made up to in order to go war. He wasn't trying to hide anything either, the UN weapons inspecters were there and they were allowed rapid movement and unfettered access to the entire country including Saddams palaces and govt buildings. As for supporting terrorism it was no worse then the terrorists the America was/is supporting.
I think the US would get the short end of that stick. Without the ability to effectively communicate with china and india most american companies would immediately grind down to a screeching and painful halt. Without effective communications with china and europe your automobile and electronics industry would be severly crippled. Virtually everything you buy is made outside the US, that's why we are running such a huge trade deficit.
What's worse once America decides that it does not want to belong to the rest of the world the arab nations and china will insist on paymets in euros which will completely destroy the demand for the dollar and plunge america into deep depression that only a worldwide conflagration will cure. US will then engage in a massive and bloody war with the rest of the world in order to force them to use the dollar and to prop up it's own industry. Billions will die, it won't be pretty.
"If we don't like what the US government does, we can ask our governments to negotiate with them to change their behaviour. "
YOu can do much more then that. You can stop buying american products, stop watching american movies, stop listening to american music and stop playing american games.
The president of the United States doesn't give a fuck what you want or what your govt wants. He does however get on his knees to suckle the CEO of pepsi, coke, nike, disney and all other large corporations for some of that fine campaign finance milk. Get corporate america involved and you will see a big impact on how the US govt acts.
" Even Mossad knows that torture is a dead end "
If that was true they would have stopped torturing people. Unfortunately torture is still officially supported by the Israeli govt and practiced by mossad (as well as the CIA of course)
In his book Palm Sunday Kurt Vonnegut talks about a project he completed in school where he graphed the happiness curve of the main character over the course of the book/story. He examined many popular stories and found out that all of the stories he looked at shared only a handful of common graphs. It's been a while but I remember him saying that the book of genesis has the same graph as cinderalla for example.
Whoever patents the five or six storylines that are the basis for virtually all books will become richer then Bill Gates.
The neat thing about this is that you don't have to actuall write the books yourself. The patent office punishes the people who get off their ass and do things while rewarding people who get in the patent line early and patent things they have never built or made.
"Funny how when Slashdot talks about Google and the Summer of Code, everyone's jumping up in joy praising Google for their work while when Microsoft does something beneficial to consumers, someone HAS to nitpick about the motives."
How do you know this will be beneficial to the consumer? Given the unethical corporate culture at MS the chances of it being good for the consumer is near zero.