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Novell to Standardize on GNOME
Motor writes "In what must be one of the least unexpected announcements of recent times, Novell says that they are standardizing on one desktop rather than supporting two different codebases. From the article: 'Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME.'"
dang, KDE was a reason to like SuSE too, so what's the best KDE-centric desktop distro now?
Granted, I'm on OS X user who uses Linux servers, and I really don't give a rats ass about Gnome versus KDE - I just look at whatever I'm using and launch the app I need.
For Novell to work on one interface isn't saying "Oh, Gnome is the Hawt and KDE is not!" - it's just a cost saving move, and I can agree with that. The question is: will this help lead to a "one Linux Desktop" future where the de-facto standard is Gnome. When that happens, will more apps be Gnome based, or will we continue to see the dual-track desktop development?
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
If you really want to, you can still use KDE, right? This seems like a change that would mainly affect newbies, from a company with a network OS that a newbie can easily use. I welcome our Novell overlords that make things simple, if lacking in choice.
This is huge...
I have always been a fan of the Gnome Desktop, as I've been a RedHat user since the early days.
KDE Has always felt klunky and thrown together compared to the new(er) versions of Gnome are currently.
I'm glad someone is also finally throwing down the line and choosing a single desktop.
-H
--- #@$DF@#2%@^%3^&*$%FRHG%%[NO CARRIER]
What about.. TEH CHOICE!!!!11??? Novell are fascists! Down with Novell!!! Open source is all about choice!! And making sure you are confronted with choice ALL THE TIME!!!
Oh wait, they are standardizing on Gnome and not KDE? Never mind. Novell rocks it.
SuSE IS KDE. Without KDE, SuSE is nothing.
Fedora is Gnome.
What I am going to do? Use Mandrake?. No, Mandrake is a BAD distribution. Right now I am using Debian and SuSe, I'll use only Debian
RedHat, Sun and Novell all now standardize on Gnome, correct? Do any major distros standardize on KDE anymore?
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
...as far as style and eye candy, take a look on gnome-look.org!
I've customized my Ubuntu 5.10 with the metacity theme "Blended 1.5", the "NuoveXT" icon theme and the grass wallpaper from one of the leaked longhorn/vista betas. Try it!
May be somethink like this, you can see some names from Novel
http://tango-project.org/
SuSe is a KDE distribution and SuSE customers want KDE. Desktop-Linux means KDE in Europe. So what do some managers of Novell do? Listen to Ximian which is a developer's booth without a market.
Unbelievable. They ruin a distribution.
A real company would listen to customers first, then allocate the ressources to development. Suse was very good on that in the past.
A bad company is driven by engineering. The role of marketing is to sell what the developers invented or want to create.
The second approach is doomed to fail.
The sooner Linux gets over its visual identity crisis the better.
This is not good news. SuSE was one of the big beasts that helped develop and improve kde in a distro, and is one of the main reasons I used it in the past. I did get sick of RPMs in the end though.
Why is that so many people prefer kde over gnome, yet redhat, debian-based distros like ubuntu and now SuSE use gnome as their primary? What main distros will be left that uses kde in preference? I can only think of mandriva now.
I'm not criticising gnome, it's a fine project and a good desktop environment, but I really like the unified desktop, reusable kparts and configurability you get with kde. I'm far from alone, as the vibrancy of kde-look.org shows. How come gnome, which is not *that* much superior to kde (some would argue that it's inferior at the moment) is making all the headway?
Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
I use KDE and Gnome on the same distro. Generally I use KDE, but I can use either just as well, so if most major software companies go the Gnome way, I'll be right there with them. At least somebody is trying to make some useful decisions, rather than splitting things up. If only more companies would do this...
Steve
Great news. Now if they switch to deb instead of rpm, I'm in.
Many other distros will still have alternatives available. Gentoo makes it easy for either WM. Qt is highly used on embedded and portable devices - so KDE will not be dying off.
This is another in a chain of announcements this year that show how much in the world of Linux. Today's is a final good riddance to the days when *the* choice was Red Hat vs SUSE, America vs Europe, GNOME vs KDE. I guess this is a move to make SUSE more comfortable for Ubuntu users, the product which I bet (open)Suse and Red hat (Fedora) see as their biggest threats right now. Windows users are difficult to pull. But to make users switch distros is easy (I'm in Fedora, but very much attracted to Ubuntu right now). I think we'll be seeing more user-pulling moves from distros soon. shipit is only a start.
Personally I use Kubuntu, it has been working very well and they do have latest and greatest versions.
However I do support Novell on this, the linux distributions need to standardize on some desktop, and it was not helping having different distros from novell and suse using different window/desktop/ui managers.
To an extent, one could see this coming. SUSE 10 was the first edition of SUSE to treat both desktops equally. Rather than having YaST default to KDE, it now prompts users to select either GNOME or KDE with no indication of prejudice. They've also been adding GNOME-centric things like Beagle. Novell's own NLD chose GNOME over SUSE's KDE for NLD 9. SUSE 10 was one of the first distributions to support GNOME 2.12 (beating Ubuntu while Mandriva which came out significantly later still uses GNOME 2.10).
While I'm still a bit surprised to see Novell give such a slight to KDE this soon, there were signs that they were becoming a GNOME operation.
In a shocking turn of events, Novell goes with the desktop founded by one if their key employees. I really thought that Ximian purchase was just a ploy to take the top Gnome developers out of the game so that KDE could flourish. I guess it was because they actually like Gnome. Go figure.
Just thought should port some accurate reporting over to Slashdot.
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12551
This is a fantastic move by Novell. We use Suse at work, and I always make sure to put Gnome as the defaut desktop on a new install. I'm not a Suse user at home, as it's too much of a 'mish-mash', with a Gnome desktop, you're still using KDE/QT apps for config. Hopefully, we'll see a new breed of Gnome/mono config tools for a real Gnome desktop.
Go Novell!
i wish i was but oh well
The look and feel of KDE represents its code structure. The same holds for GNOME.
"The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE," said Mancusi-Ungaro.
When Novell Linux Desktop was released, we as Novell Partners started using it, and used it's default desktop (Gnome 2.6) as our desktop. Having used Gnome in the past year or so is my biggest computing life's error. Everything have been problems for us. Nothing works as expected, session management is a mess, gconf crashes a lot, esd is still there and nautilus is inflexible. Gnome is being guided towards being a Desktop for dummies, but it's weird behaviour only make users unconfortable with that Desktop. Now I'm going back to KDE, and I am currently remembering what was to have fun in the desktop.
Also, we support some clients with NLD9, and everything are problems, from mime types to gconf. Our support team has started to hate Gnome a lot. Our roadmap for our clients is to switch them to KDE, but with this decision, it will not be a Novell "official" product, it will be probably OpenSuSE.
With Novell having bought Ximian, it's logical that Novell standarizes on Gnome, but with this decision, SuSE only losses, and so does Novell. Will have to think twice before suggesting a partner renewal... They still have cool products, but they are taking the grown decisions (again and again)
------- The last Sig. got fired.
I really wish kde and gnome could somehow combine their projects. I primarily use gnome, but there's a ton of kde-centric apps that I love to use. Unfortunately they don't look good under gnome. Most people aren't going to go through the loops to get the fonts in kde apps to render properly in gnome.
I think a gnome-style window manager with the features and app support of kde would be killer. Sometimes I think gnome is a bit too simplistic. It seems both projects have different design philosophies so I doubt this would ever happen.
In other news the GNU/HURD project decided to standardize on the bash prompt.
"We at GNU believe on standardizing on what is relevant to developers. You can easily multitask to multiple instances of enterprise bash without using Engelbart's moose, mouse, whatever that weird invention is called".
"In what must be one of the least unexpected announcements of recent times, [...]"
What's with the double negation? This ain't not unnecessary!
This has really floored me. The thing I liked, and I noticed many reviewers liked, was the polish the KDE desktop had in SuSE. Everything seemed to fit together wonderfully. It was a distribution for those that loved KDE.
Gnome is behind KDE and probably always will be. Every new release of QT pulls KDE further to the front. It really sickens me that the major linux distros are choosing an inferior product and trying to force it on us. Smells a little bit too much like Microsoft versus OS/2 to me.
Posters here on Slashdot and all over always wonder why Linux hasn't made more of an impact in the desktop world. Well, this is the biggest reason (or representative of it, at least). In the Windows world or even the MacOS world, no regular users give a hoot what window manager they run. They don't care which packaging system they use, either. All they know is that they buy the OS and it works, and that programs written for the platform just work. And if they go out and buy an off-the-shelf program for their computer, it just installs. The underlying technology is irrelevant. Windows users don't really care about the difference between InstallShield and .MSI files - they just know that they double-click on SETUP.EXE or INSTALL.EXE and it installs the darned program. Mac users know they either double-click to run an installer or just drag a program into their Applications folder. And yes, I know there's ways to run X11 apps on both Mac and Windows, but basically the user doesn't have to know the difference between, for instance, Carbon apps and Cocoa apps. They don't choose between competing windowing systems. They just use the computer.
Linux systems are more or less founded on choice. Which is a great thing, but has no relationship with user-friendliness or consistency. Remember part of the original motivation behind GNOME - it was because a crew of folks was unhappy with the QT licensing. So they reinvented the wheel to deal with it. That's what's great about both Open Source and Free software, but it's also why a wide-open platform is not going to gain mainstream use anytime in the foreseeable future. Even if either KDE or GNOME shut down all their development efforts tomorrow, someone would pick up the dropped torch and keep it going. And then competing vendors would still have to pick one or the other.
The day Linux desktops start spreading is the day all the big projects decide they need to focus less on eye candy and more on making the system as simple, consistent, and reliable as possible. Kind of like OS X.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
I distinctly remember submitting this as "standardising"... only to have it edited and Americanized (both in the title and most irritatingly in the text itself). What a thoughtful action from a website with editors that wouldn't know the correct spelling of a word if a dictionary was violently shoved up their arses.
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!
So you imply that before this annoucement, the SuSE Linux Enterprise Server or the Novell Linux Desktop was the best KDE desktop out there? Color me skeptical.
looks like mark shuttleworth had a good gut feeling about including kubuntu into his realm. now that novell shuts down their complete line of desktop and workstation products [ http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2005110401826O PSSNV ] he's the new kid on the block. he even announced at the ubuntu conference that he switched his personal desktop to kubuntu [ http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitmen t.php ] already.
instead of novell's silly shareholders (who drive management to mimic redhat in order to) succeed catch up with the first player on the linux server market, they are now challeneged by a newcomer with a complete offering in his portfolio: rock solid server foundation (debian), and two fully supported desktop environments (ubuntu for gnome, kubuntu for kde).
sweet alternative!
i'll certainly consider this platform now. we have 5 SUSE sles servers running our business, and we have about 120 suse 9.2 kde desktop workstation systems. we are currently evaluating nomachine nx and freenx to switch the workstations to thin clients accessing a loadbalanced dual-node desktop application server. gnome sucked here completely -- kde with its kiosk lockdown mode shines.
i'm sure I can realize this with debian and/or kubuntu too.
novell goes down the same road they went down with dr-dos, word-perfect and netware. what their management touches turns to shit.
farewell! this time forever.
1. What happens to OpenSuSE?
;-)
2. I wish luck to Novell & Gnome as this DE has indisputable qualities (as usability and beauty, for instance), but...
3. What if someone really prefers KDE (like me)? Though luck? Wait for someone to make a Knovell?
4. I'm in a position to recommend Red Hat or SuSE for server usage, whatever weight my opinion might have... most big IT providers require one or other. I was favouring SuSE. Sorry, Red Hat just won a recommendation if this news is true.
5. I use Mandra... er, Mandriva, which just got closer to be recommend it for servers (for desktop, too, but guess what, my boss just loves Windows).
DISCLAIMERS:
1. Trademarks belong to their respective owners.
2. These opinions are mine, personal, not of my employers.
3. Why I prefer KDE?
Gnome simply has killer looks. I envy it, honestly.
But, when it comes to DEs, I'm ready to trade a spectacular appearance for better internal workings.
And my perception is that KDE works better than Gnome. I guess KDE advances faster than Gnome, towards a kind of integrated experience which get closer to Mac OS in the near future, leaving Windows behind (as it may already have done).
This said, KDE and Openoffice.org could use some dieting and I hope they get unbloated as is traditional with free/open source software.
4. What about an auto-numbering feature in Slash for people who itemize everything?
Gnome Desktop = Novell/Suse Customer Support = CRAP Other commercial distro may default to Gnome, but they are not exclusively Gnome. Even Redhat allows you to use KDE. Suse can blow...
"In Europe, you cannot konquer the Desktop market with Gnome."
Wait, what?
the day Linux desktops start spreading is the day all the big projects decide they need to focus less on eye candy and more on making the system as simple, consistent, and reliable as possible. Kind of like OS X.
Do you seriously think that Mac isn't BUILT on eye-candy? OSX has the most glitzy window manager out there.... fortunatly for Macintosh it also works.
Trying to say that Linux will be sucessful if they don't focus on the "cool" factor is simply uninformed - the truth is they need to do both, focusing on only eye-candy or stability is myopic.
Novell is making a huge mistake by attempting to shove a Desktop down the throats of consumers and businesses. Some like KDE and others like Gnome it is the purchaser that should have the choice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSEe _Server
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_Enterpris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EWEEK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell_Linux_Desktop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE
Random Link
P2P Anonymous Distributed Web Search: http://www.yacy.net/
He's not saying that OS X doesn't have eyecandy, he is saying that it isn't the primary focus. Apple developed the interface 4 years ago and hasn't changed it significantly. They don't have 23 different ways for it to look. There are small choices you have, like the color of the buttons, but every Mac looks like every other Mac. Apple computers are consistent. Linux computers are not. There is a time for eyecandy and a time for ease-of-use development. Linux hasn't gotten to the eyecandy stage yet.
Just do it. Debian Sarge is the easiest Debian yet. If you add Sid packages you can bring it up to the newest KDE. Too bad about SuSE.
I don't like Gnome, but it's funny: GTK+ apps are often better than KDE apps. Thankfully KDE handles both gracefully.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
In related news, Slackware announced it is standardizing its desktop interface to the bash prompt.
#DeleteChrome
As it happens I just installed SUSE 10 and I quite like it. I'm using KDE right now but even the integration efforts of SUSE can't paper over the cracks. Just seeing 6 menu items in a row in Konq that say "Configure" just makes me shudder. If I had a choice I would use GNOME, but the GNOME integration in SUSE is terrible (where is the input from Ximian?). Therefore it's a surprise to hear they're now going to favour GNOME. I guess they've decided its better to go with Ximian than with SUSE.
People should choose their desktop environment based on personal preference, not to participate in software zealotry.
Level 1 distros have a certain number of users, or a certain level of functionality.
Leve 2 distros less than level 1.
I think they can be grouped in a manner similar to consumer electronics.
looks like the decision to chop the complete retail suse desktop product line is meant to push the worldwide novell organization into a redhat-like server-only subscription-based business
standardize on gnome?
yes, as the GUI terminal used by admins for maintaining there servers!
but novell is going to loose lots of existing customers with this strategy, and win only few new ones.
o well. novell management are not famous for continuing a well running business. they proofed themselves on unix, dr-dos, wordperfect and netware already.
kde they will not kill. kde can happily switch to kubuntu. gnome is in danger to go the way to hell where previous novell products are waiting for it!
if i were a gnome type, i wouldnt rejoice so much!
Both desktops have their strong points, and quite frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about, epecially from people who insist that Linux should standardize on one or tho other. After all is said and done, it's really no different than choosing Firefox or Opera for your web browsing. I've used both desktops, and although having used gnome recently, I thing having a choice is a good thing.
Ximian originally founded by Ventures Capital + Sun contracts + IBM have a lot a hidden power PR guys smart engineers (Miguel Nat ) cool applications (beagle ifolder mono ecc ) cool gnome patches (gnome-panel with rounded edges stripe image into the menu and so on ) cool core gnome developers from nautilus (Dave Camp) to Evolution to bonobo ecc Novell has choosen Gnome as default desktop because they can lead the development thanks to theirs key developers.
VHS
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
Ain't Elves more trendy than Gnomes this days?
... that got awarded with 17 pages in Chapman's book about '20 years of high-tech marketing disasters' (In Search of Stupidity)?
I've used a variety of linux desktops.
I see this decision not so much as a confirmation of Gnome's quality, but as a confirmation of the criticisms of trolltechs licensing of the QT.
Wait a couple of weeks for the dust to settle. There have been all sorts of changes announced at Novell and all sorts of rumors swirling around as well. The publicity side of things hasn't been very competently handled by Novell and it's hard to know exactly what's going on at the moment.
In any case, from the sound of this, Novell's commercial Linux products will now focus on Gnome, but it's free products - i.e., OpenSUSE - will continue to offer both Gnome and KDE as they do now. If this is true, it really doesn't make much of a difference. Products intended for corporate desktops and "special situations" are always going to be tightly focused subsets of what's available. It's long been clear that Gnome is more suitable for that market. Common sense really on Novell's part. SUSE 10 shows that they can put a Gnome DE together with the best of them anyway.
This all rather begs the question of whether Novell really know what they are doing at the moment. Their chairman is very reminiscent of the swivel-eyed "Dr Gil" of Apple fame and we know what happened to him. Novell's make or break is in the enterprise, just as Red Hat's is. This sphere has absolutely nothing to do with some promising free desktops like K/Ubuntu or the merits of amarok or k3b. Sorry if this disappoints the Ubuntu-fanciers on here but that's business for you.
Las qué passoun
tournoun pas maï
Actually, SUSE predates Redhat. But since Americans equate Redhat with Linux. I guess that's an easy mistake to make.
Tell me what you believe...I'll tell you what you should see.
Gnome sucks.
In one of his typical prima-donna rants earlier this year, Jamie Zawinski (one of the "popular kids" here at Slashdot High) spoke of Netscape's acquisition of Collabra, and how the Collabra people ended up forcing their culture onto Netscape from the bottom up -- eventually destabilizing and destroying the company by sending them in all the wrong directions.
It's clear now that the exact same thing is happening to Novell. The acquisition of Ximian was a BIG mistake. It added absolutely no value to Novell (I think it happened because "someone knew someone" in Massachussetts and they did it to keep Ximian's investors from losing all their money) and what happened next? Slowly but surely, the Ximian people are taking control of Novell. This latest move proves it -- SuSE was well known as a KDE powerhouse. They did more for KDE than any other single company out there (except maybe Troll Tech). Now, the Ximian people have dismantled SuSE's KDE leadership, and are probably well on their way to dismantling any other strategic advantage any other part of Novell may have had.
So long Novell, it was a grand run, but you're letting the wrong people take charge and even though you may not realize it yet, you're in a downward spiral.
And since I know Miguel and Nat are reading this -- listen up, guys, stop being a couple of pushy blowhards and do the right thing for your company. Let the grownups run the show please.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
There is certainly a case for standardizing upon a single DE for corporate workstations. In this environment, the most important apps are: Web browser, Office suite, Java/.NET business apps (which are probably through the web, but some may have client components). From this perspective, it doesn't matter so much which DE is used. Both are basically just a way to launch the 3-4 apps used daily and manage the open windows. Compared to KDE, GNOME is a barebones DE, so it makes sense to use it when you don't want to hastle with users playing around with settings and screwing up their workspace. (I've found it's also great for elementary school students because it's so incredibly simple and intuitive.) But simplicity is simultaneously GNOME's strength and weakness. What GNOME really needs is an "advanced mode" that gives the power users more control and more options. This is especially true of the Nautilus file manager, which is utilitarian enough to drive experienced users crazy! :) (not to mention the kioparts integration with Konqueror is downright useful.. fish:// anyone?)
Because their desktop goals are corporate-minded, it's no surprise that Novell is going with GNOME. But what about personal desktops and applications? This is where KDE really shines because of the apps available. K3b (CD/DVD writing), Kopete (IM), Digikam (digital camera and album manager), and Amarok (iTunes-style media) are so far ahead of their GNOME "competitors" that DE choice hardly requires thought. Yes, you can run all these apps under GNOME, but then you miss out on some of the desktop integration and you double-up on memory usage.
It will be interesting to see where KDE 4 goes, with its focus on simplification and HCI guidelines.. perhaps it'll finally gain more corporate desktop interest in the US.
Remember, though: officially supporting two (rather large) different desktop projects, which are created and designed with different fundamental idealogies, is *much* more costly to Novell, in terms of time, energy, paying hackers, etc.
Considering that Novell recently laid off a lot of people, perhaps reducing their overall cost by only officially supporting one desktop project will likely increase the quality of their distribution too.
I'd pick KDE. KDE is more consitent than Gnome and does a better job at ridding the crappyness of the x86 Linux Desktop anachonisims, such as XFrees ancient non-existant Font management or the lack of XFree clipboard usage. Since 3.0 KDE just says "GIMME THAT! I'll take care" and gone are two major anoyances of the pure OSS Desktop. Be it that it weighs heavier than Gnome but if todays systems can take such behemoths as XP, Mac OS X, then they shure can handle KDE.
I actually find Gnome prettier and less clutsy in apperance and I dislike the fact that default KDE apes the crappiness of Windows Keybindings, but on the other hand I love KDEs easy configurability. The utility libs are, afaict, more sophisticated (example: editor widget) and KWin has evolved from a joke of a WM it was to a solid foundation for KDE. Unlike Gnome the KDE people don't change their core WM every odd month - in the end it paid off.
This is the general impression I've had about KDE/Gnome the last two years. I've actually wondered why Ubuntu uses Gnome as default. From what I can tell, the core Gnome team members are probably better at advocacy than the KDE people. That could be the reason.
One last indicator makes the last solid point:
The reality is that I miss an awfull lot in a pure Gnome enviroment, but I nearly miss nothing in a pure KDE setup.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
when a person downloads or installs free software, and finds tools to develop software in the distro, they often don't realize that using the toolset (and i'm talking about Qt tools here) obligates them for thousands of dollars in licensing fees to Trolltech.
as far as i know, this is the only code on free downloadable linux distros that does this, although i think mySQL may have some similar issues.
Qt and Trolltech keep talking about how they are "just as free as anything else" but i don't see how that can be, given the costs for the toolkit alone, plus yearly renewals, is far greater than the cost of microsoft tools...and no other distro based linux toolkits have such obligations.
a small business user downloading linux for a server, and writing a single app, could be liable for massive penalties without even knowing it.
trolltech and qt zealots often say "well, a business can afford the licenses" but a lot of small businesses barely eek by, or close entirely within a couple of years, and they want thousands of dollars a year in licensing?
GNOME has far more applications that are used everyday. Look at all the 'must haves' at least using Gtk+ as the widget set. Also have you used Gtk# applications? My god... I can use the same hexeditor ( bless ) at work on windows as on linux at home -- just copy the exe to windows.
personally im a gentoo fanatic.. and use it on everything. but unless youve had the PLEASURE of installing SUSE.. or watching one of your parents install SUSE with their eyes closed and in less time than it takes to watch Star Wars Episode IV without commercials..... then you really are in no place to make those comments.. unless you want to make them from the platform of ignorance.. which i dont think you want to do....
Ideally, all software should be free, however, we live in the real world. What linux needs most to succeed on the desktop in the commercial sector is commercial grade "applications" (Photoshop, Illustrator,AutoCad, etc. Gnome (GTK+) uses the LGPL, so commercial (non-free) applications can be developed and linked against the GTK+ libraries. KDE on the other hand, uses QT. The QT license is free for non-commercial applications, but that isn't going to do much to get the range of game software, graphics, educational, etc. that Linux needs to make inroads into the desktop.
h tml
Check out the pricing for a QT license for developers to develop the "commercial" applications for linux. url:http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.
and you wonder why all of the major distributions are standardizing on Gnome?
It doesn't matter how good KDE is (and it's pretty good), its dependence on a dual-licensed GUI library kills it in commercial applications. Qt proponents can swear up and down that it doesn't matter to commercial customers, but the fact is that it does.
It's not necessarily driven by cutomers, it's driven by vendors: no vendor like IBM, Sun, or Novell can depend for their commercial business on Troll Tech. If Novell stuck with Qt, basically, Troll Tech could set the terms under which Novell's commercial customers can develop. That simply doesn't make sense, in particular if there is a less restrictive and widely used alternative.
This move also makes sense because Novell is heavily invested in Mono, and Mono GUIs are generally written in Gtk#.
From what I have seen - unscientifically - KDE has been steadily gaining more market share then Gnome. I subscribe to the linux journals monthly desktop orientated pdf and they seem to agree. I have nothing against Gnome - I just happen to like KDE. Back in '99 I thought it was better for me and I have really liked KDE's progress ever since.
Where to go from here? First, I hope this is all wrong - I'm an enthusiastic Suse user. Kubuntu I suppose, but its a tough sell for my clients. Kooler heads prevail and I hope Novell is smarter than this, but somehow I doubt it. History shows Intel let the engineers create Itanium, and Novell has in the past bought Unix for top dollar and sell it to SCO for a huge loss, along with Corel etc.
Say it aint so, novell.
iksrazal
Kubuntu, anyone?
Kubuntu is fully free (supported by a non-profit foundation, and not tied to a commercial distro or the whims of random flailing companies), and will always use KDE, becuase it's userbase/community driven.
I guess one major advantage for Gnome is that commercial companies can develop for it without buying licences. You can write an application for Gnome, and keep the source closed without paying anyone. You can write an application for Microsoft Windwos without paying anyone. You have to get a QT licence if you want to do a KDE app.
In building the MyLinux (c) Multimedia, Ham/Amateur Radio centric, 'It Just Works' distro, I've chosen Gnome ONLY, for the obvious reasons:
- Oldest & most Mature
- Most flexible (esp. sound/video wise)
- Looks 'best' (crisper, more 'Mac' like)
- Most stable, ie. doesn't crash or 'break' as often as Kde
When this distro is ready for release, I will notify /. :)
--
The InterNet is a terrible thing to waste. Arrest Bill Gates, and shut down Microsoft immediately.
I will gladly loose all of life's battles.. in order to win the war..
Nautilus. It is brain-dead. Ever try accessing a WebDav folder with Nautilus? Lets just say it puts up a fight. And then after the fight when I thought I had won, I found out that the beast would not let me edit
And when I told it to always open
Formatted the Fedora Core 4 hard drive and installed Suse 10 and never looked back. Nautilus is Konqueror's bitch. And Suse kicks Redhat's ass. And I had been using Redhat for over 10 years.
And now I hear about Suse getting comfy with Gnome? Nooooooooooooooo. Gnome is a piece of trash!
Novell moving to Gnome didn't come as a suprise to me, it makes quite alot of sense, the amount of apps starting up on linux that are generally GTK+ based is greatly out weighing the QT and KDE apps. However don't forget Gnome and KDE have similar goals, and so are thus in competition. If Gnome is being favoured more, then this is just more fuel for the fire in the KDE camps. With this move aswell it does leave a gap in the linux distrobution market, for a KDE-centric distro.
C'mon, this post doesn't remotely qualify as flamebait except to KDE fanatics. Stupid mods.
the eweek article has a few very interesting lines, quoting and paraphrasing Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (novell director of marketing for linux and open source -- ex-ximian, for those who need this info to judge the guy's credibility).
this is all in response to a previous linuxtoday.com [ http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-1
"we are redeploying its developers" in my book, this amounts to a complete disolution of the previously existing Evoluton development group in India.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of euphemisms.] "to other more strategic projects" in my book, this amounts to the complete dropping of any future Evolution support by novell. Evolution once was dubbed as "a strategic cornerstone to conquer the linux desktop market".
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of deceit.] "it also has a lot of community support" in my book, this amounts to a lame justification for dropping Evolution. as for the substance of the claim: i can't say anything. from a cursory look however, it seems the community support for Evolution isnt quite famous.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of blurring the line.] "default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop" in my book, this amounts to the confirmation of the linuxtoday claim which said "Novell Is Chopping Its SUSE Linux Workstation and Desktop Product Line". Or do you see it mentioned? SLES is not "workstation", and NLD is not "SUSE product line".
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of talking wishi-washi.] "KDE (....) will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE" in my book, this amounts to saying that novell drops support for kde. novell and suse had made it a big point before that opensuse was not a product, but a project. being an *open* project, it may be well assumed that kde will still be supported there, by the community, not by novell.
[one bonus point to Mancusi-Ungaro proofing himself as a master of con.]
Verdict: Mancusi-Ungaro is a clever marketing droid. most slashdot readers would easily fall prey to him.
People should choose their desktop environment based on personal preference, not to participate in software zealotry.
Okay, I agree with you so far as your the choice of desktop environment is concerned, but surely you'd agree that people should make their Slashdot posts based on zealotry? That's the whole point!
doesn't hurt that novell owns Ximian
woosh!
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
What is the best KDE-Centric distro?
Just use Debian (or Kubuntu if you insist on getting the bleeding edge version of KDE) or really ANY distro.
Seriously, your distro doesn't have to be KDE-Centric. Most large distros provide KDE, GNOME, and a dozen lightweight wm's. KDE will never disappear from Debian because there are hundreds of debian developers who use it. Just `apt-get install kde`.
I don't use it myself. I mostly use wmi, and I have gnome on the computer that I try to make user-friendly for my wife. KDE is a good DE and so is gnome. I prefer gnome, but it's basically just because of the look and feel, and I also like writing small apps in gtk in a few languages (although I did write a pyqt app once that I still use on my sharp zaurus and qt is totally fine).
I sort-of standardized my gui usage on gtk and gnome a couple years ago when QT was not fully GPL on every platform. If Trolltech had been fully open-source with qt, gnome probably would have never happened. As it is, they're both great and both very open now. I hope both projects continue to develop and learn from each other.
I doubt any decisions on the part of novell to standardize on gnome will be a serious setback for kde. Others will continue to use KDE, and it'll continue to develop.
Forgive me if I don't understand all there is to know about the subject but isn't KDE (or the Qt libraries from which it's built) not Open Source? It makes a lot of sense to me that Novell would choose a FREE desktop environment. It's going to win out in the end because people won't pay royalties to develop applications that aren't GPL'ed. Many companies will want to develop Linux applications and if they have to pay for Qt to do it they'll resist and just develop GNOME anyhow.
They had to pick one...so why pick one that isn't completely free?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Dave
God, I hate gnome...
Hmm seems like deja-vu. MySQL seems to be more popular than PostgreSQL for whatever reasons. MySQL commercial users rely on Innobase. Oracle acquires Innobase. Oracle can do whatever they want now with regards to potential future Innobase licensing negotiations with MySQL. So what would be the logical choice now?
Don't get me wrong, the GNOME and KDE groups both make great *APPLICATIONS*, like KOffice and its GNOME equivalant (Gnumeric, AbiWord, etc) and let's not forget Gimp. However, the GOME and KDE *DESKTOPS* both suck dead bunnies through a garden hose.
*I DON'T RUN DESKTOPS, I RUN APPLICATIONS*. If I really wanted a fat, bloated, pointy-clicky-touchey-feeley-oowee-GUI, I would never have left Windows in the first place. Blackbox with fbpanel as the "launchbar" is just right. My emergency backup machine is a 6-year-old Dell, 450 mhz PIII with 128 megs of RAM. For everything except internet TV and manipulating 2560x1920 digital photos in Gimp, it is perfectly OK with Blackbox. As for KDE or GNOME, when they started up, I got to watch the "desktop icons" being painted in slow motion. It was painful. On my current AMD64, 3000+ cpu with 2 gigs of RAM (running Gentoo linux in 32-bit mode) GNOME/KDE are OK. Blackbox screams along.
I'm not repeating myself
I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
Am I the only user who find Gnome a bitch to work with because of it's registry like config thingie
Quick! Someone make a blog entry about this being the end of KDE as a desktop, then in a few hours we can all see the /. headline "The Death of KDE?"!
I think a lot of Suse customers will not be so pleased.
Of course SUSE customers won't be pleased. There are many must-have desktop apps built on the KDE framework that don't have any good gtk equivalents:
AmaroK music player -- Steve Jobs' nightmare, the single greatest threat to Itunes on the Free Software platform.
DigiKam -- The most feature-rich application for digital photo management.
Konqueror File Manager" -- Embeded image/PDF/music/video viewing (via KMPlayer) and a tree-view arrangement of the filesystem familiar to Windows users (Nautilus doesn't come anywhere close)
Seamless, transparent network file access on SMB, FTP, SSH and WebDav networks from _any_ KDE application.
Kaffeine -- The most polished FOSS movie player.
Baghira -- A native QT style that faithfully imitates OS X eyecandy, aimed at new users coming from the Mac world.
KDE and QT also make up a technically superior platform for developers, drastically lowering the learning curve for programmers new to FOSS development. KDE apps can be built from the ground up using the best development tools in the Free Software world (which also happen to be built on QT/KDE):
QT designer for GUI development
Kdevelop for syntax highliting, application templates, and project organization.
BKSys environmentfor a complete replacement of the autotool chain (libtool+automake+autoconf+make) that will make dependency a whole lot more simpler and efficient.
Gnome is way behind KDE with regards to these features. The only reason Redhat's doing so well with Gnome is because they're targeting geeky sysadmins who don't care about having a good-looking desktop. The other 99% of the world does care, and gnome just doesn't fit the bill.
Just because they're moving, it doesn't mean they'll drop the support and you will never see KDE again in the Novell world.
Any good distro should just support both, plus XFCE4 and any other good Desktop Environments, Window Managers, etc.
all referencing eweek. Just once I'd like to see something directly from Novell. SO far, I have not seen that.
When I see it from Novell in a press release or somesuch, I'll worry about it.
Uhh there's quite a few!
Gnome is by no means the de-facto standard.
Kubuntu defaults to KDE, so does Mandriva, SuSe did too, same with Mepis, Knoppix, Xandros, Slackware, also Gentoo is 100% agnostic obviously, same with all non Linux unices I'm aware of (ie *BSD).
The list really does go on and on. And in fact of the top 10 distros (according to distrowatch.com) 5 default to KDE, one defaults to Fluxbox, and another has no default (Gentoo). That's 7 of the top 10 distros that don't use Gnome!
Out of all the distros listed on distrowatch.com, 216 use KDE as the default desktop environment, while only 135 use Gnome.
Obviously you didn't think very hard did you?
Anyone else find it funny that the parent got modded Troll talking about TrollTech?
Brain kills internet cells.
A move to gnome isnt that much of a fuss. You can still run KDE without any problems. The big difference from what i understand is that all apps from Novell will be coded for Gnome but they will as before work just as well under KDE. The dafault desktop is easily changed at installation time.
The only thing i think Gnome needs is a profile choice for the user. Like a couple of different gconf setting to choose from. One "Gnome" mode, one "XP" mode and perhaps an "Mac OS" mode. This would make transition much easier without letting go of what i percive as what the Gnome developers like their desktops like. This ofcourse damands easier profile handling in Linux but thats very needed anyway, I run a couple of terminal servers on linux and managing gnome or Kde profiles aint no picnick.
HTTP/1.1 400
As far as I'm concerned, SuSE Linux has been going downhill. I really like KDE, but SuSE 10 seems quite unstable. I don't think it's KDE since I run the stock KDE at work on my Sun workstation. I have had nothing but trouble since upgrading from 9.3 to 10 and think they jumped the gun on moving to GCC 4.0. Everything seems less stable.
I like KDE and all of the options and features available through it. With Gnome, I was often frustrated looking for various options, like a menu editor (which they finally added), or just changing the focus policy in the window manager.
I'm also running into issues compiling some of the multimedia add-ons SuSE does not include because they jumped to GCC 4.0. Some of which refuse to compile due to bugs in the new version.
I will likely soon look for a new distribution, since YaST has caused me no end of problems... sound is unreliable, KDE keeps locking up when starting up, and Konqueror is really flakey. That and the fact that SuSE seems to love pushing software before it's ready, like beta versions of Open Office.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
Coincidence?
Yes.
The reason that Novell has been leaning towards Gnome in because their top linux desktop developers are from Ximian. Novell hired them because their projects (Mono, Evolution, etc) filled an important role in the corporate market that they are targeting. However, they also happen to be the founders and large contributers to the Gnome project.
culture of elitism and is a desktop that spends less time listening to its users then most of the others. KDE has been a leader in both usability, flexibility and responsiveness. Unless the core Gnome development group starts making some serious cultural changes I think this is a lose-lose for both Novell and its users.
Standardization *needs* to happen. But why choose the desktop that most frequently alienates it's own user base?
I'm sure there are a lot of people who would argue against everything I've just said, but look at the trends. I'm not saying Gnome is a bad project or the developers aren't good/respectful/worthy as those in any other project. But KDE has managed to pull itself up as a desktop for the people, and I respect that (even if I use Blackbox still most of the time).
I'll be sticking with RHEL for the time being anyway. Supports both and runs solidly.
Quack, quack.
I'm trying for the Nth time to move to Linux (I keep failing due to games :( ) and am currently using Ubuntu Breezy on my desktop. I was quite dismayed to find that the new dumbed-down dialogs are instant-apply, I often like to browse among options and don't want to remember what was the original value every time!
:(
:D Just wanted to vent on things I disliked about Gnome, and also - can someone confirm that the latest KDE still has the Apply/Reset options for prefs? I've checked online and that seems to be the case, but would like a confirmation.
:)
Since my priority is to make sure I use Linux for everything except games, I'm going to keep using Gnome as I'm more familiar with that rather than KDE (was using it earlier in FC3 and RH). But I'm already thinking of switching to Kubuntu later, two things I disliked about the drive to 'simplify UI' for Gnome are:
1) Preferences insta-apply - I consider this a very BAD thing
2) Same wallpaper across desktops in Nautilus - if I use multiple desktops, would like an easy indication of the current one.
I'm quite happy with either UI, though personally I wish E 0.17 would crawl out from wherever its hiding
Also - if anyone has tips on using Ubuntu on amd64 w/ 64 bit kernel (apart from info in ubuntu forums or guide) please post that in a reply to this comment. I'm especially interested in precompiled packages for Wine - so I can try to run War3
I've been a Suse fan since 8.1 and just purchased 10.0 (I've used all versions of Suse from 8.1 to 10.0)
I'm a hardcore KDE fan. I've played with Gnome and I despise it deeply.
I despise Gnome equally as much as I despise M$ winders.
This is the dumbest thing I have see Suse do since I've been onboard the Suse fanwagon..
I won't use Fedora so that's out. I guess I'll stick with my 10.0 until it becomes badly outdated then I'll go to Gentoo so I can have it MY way..
Thanks Suse, you've been a great distro for a long time, a good friend.
But the time has come for us to part ways...
I hate to throw my voice in with all the negative stuff, but it's how I feel.
First, GNOME has shown future promise, but it's done that for a while now. Great proof-of-concept; now, let's move on to what the real desktop's going to be like. Oh, this is the real desktop? You're kidding, right?
Second, GNOME was the desktop that was started largely because KDE had showstopper legal issues. Now that Miguel is hellbent on pushing Mono and Novell is throwing energy behind it, GNOME has showstopper legal issues, and of a much higher magnitude at that.
Seriously, what's with this? Red Hat shat on KDE when it had legal issues; why is everyone jumping on the GNOME bandwagon now despite the legal issues? If they want to be consistent, Red Hat and Co. should be treating GNOME like the leper it is.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
So apparently lumping them all together as surely acting that way because they were once colonies isn't necessarily accurate.
. stm
Canada uses the British "s" and "u" rules, but they also use a lot of Americanisms, like "sidewalk", "fall" and "mad" to mean angry.
It's pretty funny. The American rules are basically the British rules at the moment the two countries started to drift apart. But yet the British get all mighty like we're the ones who do things wrong. Many people (some even linguists!) also say that American accents (I don't know which one they mean) are also just versions of British accents from the colonial days frozen in time.
Finally, an editor is supposed to make the text understandable by all. That might mean switching "pavement" to "sidewalk". It might mean changing "aubergine" to "eggplant". And it might mean switching "colour" to "color" and "standardize" to "standardise".
Look at the site below, the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1147246
It has a cop from Kentucky, USA saying "At a distance it looks like a real bill, it's got the green colour,". Why would the BBC put a u in color? This is an American speaking. The word as the speaker knows it is "color". The BBC translated it for the reader, just like slashdot did.
Here's my main point on all this:
If you don't like it, start your own site.
If it makes you feel better, the new version of Grand Theft Auto from Rockstar (Leeds) seems to be permanently in metric and use "u" variants of words, despite being set in America.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Years ago I went through the development framework of KDE, Qt. I was immediately surprised by the huge power of that platform versus GTK .
It might have been Qt's C++, or the Qt vs GTK "Hello World!" lazy-man choc but I then simply sticked to Qt (the troubles came later).
I mean I don't know much of the widget wonders of GTK so I possibly can't tell, but I just found a good bunch of classes around me with Qt and I was happy.
Perhaps for KDE losing such a strong 'mainline supporter' as SuSE the big deal is for the Qt platform losing terrain and future, and all the wasted/ to be wasted efforts when building up a gnome program vs a KDE one.
- Back when Qt was not GPL-compatible, the KDE developers ignored the problem. "Qt is cool!" they thought, while taking GPL software from other people and porting it to KDE. For this, we ought to throw the bastards out of the free/open community. Heck, we could sue them.
- For years, the KDE developers thumbed their noses at everything but C++. Even the Win32 API is based on C, with MFC on top, and GNOME's gtkmm over gtk is a similar situation. Deliberate and somewhat hostile exclusion of so much of the free/open software world is disgusting.
- Now you can get a GPL version of Qt. This is enough to shut up RMS, perhaps because RMS himself is enough of a bastard to put the GPL on popular libraries like libgtop and libreadline. It's not really friendly though. The LGPL is most appropriate for libraries. (some of the Creative Commons and MPL-like licenses are OK too, but why be complicated?) With the LGPL, the library itself has GPL-like protection for itself without infecting library users. This is very fair, and a rather well-accepted compromise between GPL and BSD. If we allow Qt to become the standard, then Troll Tech gets to collect a tax from every proprietary developer. Now, maybe collecting such a tax isn't bad, but annointing Troll Tech as tax collector is more than a bit unfair.
There are plenty of alternatives, so it's not as if GNOME could halt development now. GNOME is just the best. We also have GNUstep and XFCE, plus the perfectly servicable traditional setup.What we need is drop in shared library replacements for kde/qt and gnome/gtk.
For example, I like kde, I think its open file dialog is much more robust, I think all of it works more the way I want it to. There are some great programs that use gnome/gtk though. I should be able to do a drop in shared library wrapper replacement with the gnome/gtk libraries which actually call the kde/qt function calls. So then the actual gnome/gtk program which uses shared libraries thinks it is calling a gnome function call, in reality that function call is calling the kde/qt function.
While we are at it we could do the same thing the other way around for people that like the gnome/gtk stuff.
this is an easy one.
For every person like you, there is at least another like me.
Until now (next release?), I would not consider using SuSE.
I guess SuSE was listening to their customers.
I, for one, will continue to use KDE and so long as there are many many other people who do the same then that is all that really matters.
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
Suse is ok, but it's not the world changing distro everyone told me it was. Doesn't really matter to me anyhow. I can compile KDE if I need to. I bet someone will pick up the package maintenance for KDE and you won't even notice novell ditched it.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Well, it is named after a main ingredient in one of the most popular french drinks...
There's nothing wrong with some well-deserved animosity.
Back when Qt did not have the GPL as an option, KDE developers ported various GPL apps to use Qt. They then distributed those apps. Since the original Qt license was less free than the GPL, the KDE developers lost their license to the GPL code. They thus were infringing copyright. They could have been sued, with massive damages if any of the copyrights were registered.
Since then, the Free Software Foundation has officially re-granted the GPL license to the KDE developers. Not every abused developer has done this though.
In any case, somebody who refuses to respect the primary free software license is not to be trusted.
SuSE has made Linux kernel modifications to support notifying the GNOME desktop of events like plugging in a device. Now, if you plug in a camera, the desktop reponds in a sensible way. You're offered a chance to move pictures off your camera, etc.
Oh, my god. As I was reading your title my eyes started flashing like Google crawler.
p.s. You forgot to put KEYWORDS in front. That would really spin me off
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
Ideally, all software should be free, however, we live in the real world. What linux needs most to succeed on the desktop in the commercial sector is commercial grade "applications" (Photoshop, Illustrator,AutoCad, etc. Gnome (GTK+) uses the LGPL, so commercial (non-free) applications can be developed and linked against the GTK+ libraries. KDE on the other hand, uses QT. The QT license is free for non-commercial applications, but that isn't going to do much to get the range of game software, graphics, educational, etc. that Linux needs to make inroads into the desktop. Check out the pricing for a QT license for developers to develop the "commercial" applications for linux. http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.html and you wonder why all of the major distributions are standardizing on Gnome?
basically the user doesn't have to know the difference between, for instance, Carbon apps and Cocoa apps.
Just to check, I started up a Gnome app while running KDE. No problem. The other way works fine too. The only things developers and users are forced to choose are what toolkits or what user interfaces they prefer.
It always seems to be pundits like you who complain in the users' names about choice - users either don't know there is a choice (because they're using whatever was default on their distribution) or don't care there is a choice (because the existance of one compatible choice usually doesn't make the other any worse). Do you know any real users who don't like having choices? Tell them I ordered them to use Gnome. There, no choice anymore, it's all better.
Different packaging systems are a much better example of problems caused by choice, because there you can have some incompatibility - I can't double-click-install every SuSE package or Mandrake package on my Fedora system, and I can't install *any* Debian package without digging into "Alien" howtos. That means more work or less compatibility for software developers, and that's a bad choice... but, of course, it's the same bad choice that developers are forced to make when they choose to write OS X applications or Windows applications. It's not even that bad, since Linux developers can statically link all libraries and make a self-installing install.sh script to be compatible with every distribution (or can distribute source code to be compatible with a dozen other Unices), but OS X or Windows developers who want to be compatible with OSes from multiple companies need to use crossplatform API wrappers from day one.
Who says Open Source implies Open Mind? Thanks, Novell!
There are 415-1 Linux distributions left.
I thought Ubuntu 5.10 was the best Linux I've ever used, but only SUSE 10.0 would handle my new Athlon mobile laptop's hardware correctly. Gnome in SUSE 10.0 is solid. It does everything Ubuntu did, plus it handles all the more proprietary things like Eclipse, win32codecs, Real and Adobe perfectly.
Happy to be with SUSE, happy to be with GNOME.
Red Hat patches the Hell out of things with wild and reckless abandon. There was the famous gcc 2.96, the hacked-up Linux 2.4 with NPTL "support", and even a "sort" command that wouldn't sort!
Novell's SuSE can beat these clowns once KDE has been shed.
Really, they are nice KDE based distros.
Meh.
It's time to bury KDE!
If Linux wants to get to next level it must adopt GNOME as the standard desktop and GTK as the standard GUI library.
This is the way to go!
I have used SuSE for years. I can install Gnome or KDE or both... The default check mark is on KDE... I guess new the check mark will be on Gnome. I have become very fond of Gnome KDE seems so busy compared to KDE.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I've been using SuSE for the past year and a half because it is the KDE-based distro which WORKS. Now they're dumping KDE/kwin as the primary interface? WTF? I actually LIKE integrated apps. I LIKE DCOP because I can automate nearly everything, be it command line or GUI.
Thanks Novell, I'll be switching to Mandriva if you do this.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Does anyone still need convincing that Novell's upper management has no clue? SuSE was known as a great KDE distro, so that's why we're going to standardize on Gnome.
Brilliant.
Memo to turnaround specialists and consortium builders:
Buy Novell sooner rather than later. Then you get get rid of the useless Soviet-style bureaucracy and reverse the idiot decisions before all of the investment that Novell has made goes right down the plughole.
Novell is full of people either without a clue or been made to regret ever challenging their leaders over anything. The only thing a neck is for in Novell is not for sticking it out, but for ducking when the brown squidgy stuff hits the electrical whirly thing.
True story: I know someone who worked who had a great idea. He patented it. He presented it to Novell because he knew that if Novell used the patent, it could break into the next wave of the Internet well before any of its competitors. He was told to talk to the VP in charge of investments. The VP told him that the only way to get Novell to even consider the patent and the accompanying business plan for investment was to leave the company and then present it from outside because Novell did not invest in the ideas of its employees. At all. Ever.
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
The general tendency of corporate providers of Linux to favor Gnome because of the licensing terms. If you are a writer of commercial software, or any software that isn't GPL compatible, you cannot use the Qt/KDE stack for your app. You can use the LGPL GTK/Gnome stack. Because a big part of the selling point of commerical Linux distros is the fact that other commercial software is certified to run on them, they MUST provide good support for GTK/Gnome. Now you get some bean counter coming through wondering why we are supporting two desktop environments. Well, you can't cut the GTK/Gnome stack, because of the commercial support, because of the licensing. So they cut (or under resource) KDE.
/commercial plugin ecosystem around Eclipse, and so it will never happen. As a result I'm trapped with the Gnome moronicly 'usable' file dialog, which constantly makes my life hard...
Please note, I'm a GPL proponent for the most part. I understand fully *why* trolltech does what it does with QT, and approve of their business model, but it's the use of the GPL for infrastructure libraries in Qt/KDE that is driving the commercial side towards Gnome/GTK.
As for me... I'd kill for Qt bindings for Eclipse... but the Eclipse Public License is not GPL compatible, and the GPL is intrinsically incompatible with the mixed open source
I have been an ardent Suse fan for the past eight years. I appreciated the choices offered in desktop managers, as well as the free remote updates and the wonderful work done on YaST system management services. I didn't think much of the Novell buyout of Suse, but rather viewed it as a possible shot-in-the-arm to lend more support and visibility to Suse in the business world. This latest move by Novell disappoints me. I see this as a poorly directed business move, without regard to the existing user base. I run KDE because of the rich application support. I've tried Gnome on numerous occasions, but have found the application selection to be very weak. Now I'll have to find another release to use. Forget Redhat, it's crap, and it smells too much like M$. Guess I'll just have to jump into some hackerware release like Debian or Slackware.
There is no conspiracy.
There are more people out there hacking OSS on Linux in C than C++ -- while I have a fair number of things depending on C++ on my system, it's much smaller than the number of C apps on my system.
This means that there are more developers tending toward the GNOME camp. This means more apps for GNOME.
Most applications have some sort of KDE and some sort of GNOME implementations; however, of the remainder, there are more GNOME-only apps than KDE-only apps.
Nobody is going to make you stop using KDE. There are still people using GNUStep happily (and it continues to be steadily developed). However, the "business-oriented" distros, the ones that are trying to address the bulk of regular-old-users out there, are choosing GNOME. This does not need to impact your life; those users aren't going to use emacs either, yet I continue to use emacs. It's just not a big deal, unless you're worried about being with the most popular crowd -- and if that were the case, you'd probably be using Windows.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
You submitted an article to a website hosted in the US. The website is generally US-centric due to the large number of US users. The article submitted regarded a US company. Your submission contained words that were incorrect in US English spelling. The US-based editor corrected the spelling to be consistent with most of the rest of the site.
Now you are complaining.
I mean, don't get me wrong; it's really silly when people attack (clearly British) people using British spellings. But this was a pretty straightforward editorial call. Slashdot could use *more* grammar editing, not less.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
That's what's great about both Open Source and Free software, but it's also why a wide-open platform is not going to gain mainstream use anytime in the foreseeable future.
Well, it's one of the reasons why Linux won't make it big on the desktop any time soon. There are tons of other reasons, too, such as the fact that people (a) don't care, (b) are locked into proprietary file formats, and (c) aren't competent to install an OS. I pretty much agree with what you said in your post, but I disagree with your emphasis. I use fluxbox. I'm happy that nobody forced me to use some other WM because that's what a majority supposedly wants. Linux is about freedom, not about market share.
Find free books.
You know, I use Windows some of the time at work. And during that time, I've seen Lotus Notes' interface, along with Mozilla's interface, the XP widgets, the 2k widgets, WinAMP's bitmapped interface, and have not seen any users have any problem with it.
I don't really think that a slightly different looking interface is a big problem, to be honest. If you stick users in front of Linux workstations and run the same apps that they have years of experience in (like MS Office), the users are going to be able to function about as well.
The reason Windows users get cranky when moving to Linux is because they have expertise in Windows apps that gets thrown out.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
GNOME: A desktop system whose libraries will never be finished, and whose ABIs change several times a week.
KDE: A desktop system whose applications have no documentation, print a lot of debugging information on stderr, and store their data in subdirectories 17 layers deep within ~/.kde.
Find free books.
Well, after being a SuSE _customer_ since 6.1, I guess it's time for me to vote with my feet.
I was afraid that Novell would trash SuSE after buying it, and it seems like they're going to. It was great while it lasted, though. Novell should have never bought SuSE. They should have left it alone. If they couldn't afford to support KDE (which is _why_ many of the SuSE customers liked them), then they shouldn't have gone forward with this plan. They should have created their own distro or bought a Gnome-centric distribution. I've used Gnome. I hate it. Maybe it's great from a developer's POV, but from this user's POV, it's utter crap.
Gah.
I feel ill.
--
BMO
> They don't have 23 different ways for it to look.
brushed metal
I have a friend who stopped reading Slashdot about a year ago. He really enjoyed it at one point, but the proportion of articles that are simply rabble-rousing has reached simply ridiculous levels. I've finally started using an RSS reader, and Slashdot just doesn't warrant fitting on the thing.
I don't mean that article titles like "Emacs sucks Donkey Balls" show up -- mean that you see summary bodies that strongly imply that, for instance, emacs is going to stop being used by anyone, and deliberately lets users draw wrong conclusions.
The problem with this approach is that it isn't sustainable. Yes, readers that are alarmed and upset make for attentive readers. For a while. After a bit, trying to read Slashdot, I start to feel numb from the sheer amount of useless content flooding by.
On my current front page, I see:
"Unisys: We No Longer Have A Way Out". This article implies that some company has completely switched directions and admitted that Linux is better than Windows. Even without reading the article, I am quite sure that the actual situation is a lot less black-and-white. It's nothing more than a summary intended to let people get a bit of Microsoft-smearing in.
"Hardware: Unsecured Wi-Fi to Become Illegal?" Of course, unsecured Wi-Fi isn't going to become illegal on any kind of significant scale. There would be huge numbers of simply uninformed consumers facing penalties. This article is simply present to get people posting about how the big telcos are trying to suppress independent network access, and so on and so forth. It's trying to get people scared. It's absurd.
"Linux: Linspire CEO Offers S. Korea To Replace Windows" Summary implies that Linux is about to replace Windows across a country. Of course, nothing like that is actually going to happen; this is a PR ploy that at best might generate some revenue for Linspire and a few more Linux users.
There is a *huge* amount of interesting news for nerds out there, if you look across the entire world. There are countless people to interview, who would be more than happy to show up on Slashdot. Technocrat.net covers much of the same stuff as Slashdot, and *they* manage to avoid pointless flame-generating articles. Maybe a GIMP how-to with pretty pictures. A walkthrough of a new programming language. I haven't seen coverage of interesting anime stuff for a bit, and I refuse to believe that the anime world is simply dead. A review of a new Linux distribution.
Instead, I see more and more articles that tend more towards propaganda than interesting news.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
There's an article around the time of the Suse aquisition exactly like this one that said Ximian Desktop would be 'tightly stitched' with Suse. Where is Ximian Desktop now? Notice this is Ximian's ex head of Marketing ;-).
Well then,
now is a good time to create a new, KDE centric, SUSE based distro.
I hope someone will do it: create the equivalent of Kubuntu.
BTW, I wonder if any of SUSE's KDE developers were among the 600 employees they let go recently? If so I hope they take the initiative for a new distro, or join the effort.
Once KDE4 comes out with Plasma and new usability features, even more users are going to flock to the KDE desktop. Especially since they'll see it as most on par with Windows Vista.
List of things that Novell has ruined
1) Novell (with a bullet) - they used to have like 90% of the SMB server market
2) Word Perfect
3) SuSE
4) Ximian
5) Anything else they have touched, since I'm sure I left a lot out.
I am glad that more and more distros are choosing one or the other. KDE reminds me too much of windows or OS/2. It is time for the Linux community to pick a winner so that they can attract some desktop app developers to their platform.
As a mac user, I look forward to some real competition on the desktop.
It's not flamebait. I agree that there needs to be some UI consistency on linux and I believe this is what you were referring to right?
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
As someone who uses neither, I can only say that I'm glad they did it. Why? I really don't care which way it goes, GNOME or KDE (though, to be honest, I do favour GNOME slightly because its Python and Ruby bindings are better). What I do want as a developer, however, is for there to be a single, standard platform for me to target. GNOME is already ahead in this department, by virtue of being the default in RedHat/Fedora (which are still the most popular distros out there, no matter what), and then all the hype around GNOME-centric Ubuntu... With SuSE joining the club, we can pretty much officially declare that the desktop wars are over.
That's kind of what part of my point was - I use and support all the platforms as part of my work, and I've used Linux literally for over a decade (I remember when Bob Young was showing up at computer flea markets with copied Yggdrasil CD's, to really date myself badly). I've used Linux personally, as a desktop and as a server, and I still do. I like the freedom to tinker and the ability to tweak it to my needs, regardless of distro.
.5% of marketshare is fine as far as I'm concerned - I'm not going to stop using a Linux desktop (though I'm posting this from my iMac G5) just because it's not a "mainstream desktop". But so many of these articles and posts are coming from a "Linux world domination" perspective that there's just no real thought towards the reality.
The problem is that I'm not the market that has to be happy in order for Linux to be a truly viable desktop OS. Joe User is the market, and Joe User has a lot less expertise than virtually anyone who ever has posted on Slashdot. People lose track of the fact that we're not representative of the marketplace. And even
For the right people, Linux is an awesome desktop OS. Problem is, we're the right people, and there's just not enough of us. When Linux becomes something that can just be installed and used, easily, with all the Little Things done right, then it'll get serious traction. Heck, as another poster on this thread commented, the reason Apple gets to work on eye candy is because they already figured out the Little Things. When a Linux distro gets that right, instant traction. And GNOME versus KDE is not the way to get there.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Do you seriously think that Mac isn't BUILT on eye-candy?
Mac OS X is built on quality design. That, in turn, happens to look pretty cool to most people.
I don't know about anybody else, but when I say "eye-candy" as a derrogatory term, I mean visual elements added in ignorance of any overall design. There is a reason that Mac OS X looks cool, where tacky rip-offs of the visual elements do not. When you simply "paste-on" a bunch of stuff that "looks cool", you end up with an incoherent mess. This is the dominant practice in open source UI design.
In other words, the problem isn't "glitz". It's improper use of it. Apple can afford the glitz because they have skilled designers that know how to use it properly. Open source projects do not, and they suffer by spending too much time adding "eye-candy" in without any coherent vision.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
Let's also not forget that the move towards standardizing on the GNOME desktop doesn't mean that they're dumping interoperability with applications written for the K Destop Environment. KDE apps will still run great, and the user can still pick Plastik as their theme. Novell may officially only support the (ever-improving) GNOME configuration tools (and importantly their localization), but those who will never ever use anything else but the K Desktop Environment until the day they die can still continue using and helping maintain the KDE-based OpenSUSE. Novell GPL'd the previously semi-OpenSourced SuSE so they aren't actually picking up their toys and taking anything away from the KDE userbase.
I've been using GNOME for a couple of years now and like every release more than the previous one, but I'm also fine working under KDE every now and then. I did actually "standardize" on GNOME (currently under Ubuntu) after being a customer of both SuSE and Mandrake who let their GNOME support wither in the past. However I never felt any venomous anger towards these distro vendors over their choice.
If KDE/Qt is to someone the one and only acceptable desktop environment and giving the current v2.12 release of GNOME a fair test run is too far outside their parameters for tolerance, by all means switch to Mandrake-Conectiva or adopt one of the numerous remaining KDE-only distros (and make its developers to swear on the blood of their first-borns that they will never ever stop being KDE-centrik!). But hating Novell over this and seeing evil konspiracies where only kost-kutting rationalization exists is quite silly and unproductive IMO
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Personally, I prefer to use a Desktop Environment that "Just Works" [tm]. I actually don't "like" the default look and feel of either Gnome or KDE on Debian Unstable, however I find that the default Gnome install is more understandable to ME than the default KDE install.
Why? Up until a few years ago I never had a computer that was quite up to running KDE efficiently. When it came time for me to settle for a desktop environment Gnome won, not because I "liked" it but because its competitor on my machines just wouldn't run fast enough.
I think the punters will purchase and use a distribution whose user interface works for them. If that's a Gnome dressed as KDE or a KDE dressed as a Gnome, I'm not sure that they actually even *care*. Let's face it, unless you happen to be a desktop environment developer, you're not using your computer to use the desktop environment - the desktop environment is simply a means to an end.
Will it be bad if KDE just goes away? Quite possibly yes.
Is it bad that Novell has switched camps? Quite possibly yes if you're in the KDE camp.
In the long term if a Novell/SuSE customer says: "I bought SuSE version 15 and even my computer illiterate sister could use it straight away, my blind cousin can use it out of the box and I, power user, find that it doesn't get in my way"...then Novell/SuSE have won the game.
DSL
Their's nothing wrong with asking!
I really do prefer the Gnome interface to KDE. I have to "take out" a lot of eye candy from the default KDE behavior to enjoy it. I have also found default setups of gnome distros to run faster than KDE ones on the same hardware (yes, could be the distro).
What makes Gnome frustrating is the lack of that "network" link whenever I use an application on a LAN. I'm not a programmer and I don't want to have to be a sys-admin, either. I have found a way to manually mount remote fileservers so that applications see them. To many people, though, browsing to each document each time they want to use it instead of just being able to open them from a dialog box is not going to happen.
This is yet another classic example of an American Corporate being totally out of touch with the customer base out here in the Rest-of-the-World. Message to Novell:- "Enjoy the continuing death experience". Message to shareholders:- "Cash up quick before they stuff up completely and blow all your dough".
Crosstheming can make them *look* the same. They still don't act the same. KDE understand unix keybindings, for instance, while that ability was deliberately removed from GTK some time back. You can't even get it back by editing config files, and bug reports on it have been marked not a bug. So even if you crosstheme it and it looks right (the attempts I've seen are always flawed) you're still going to have one app that understands your keybindings, and another that insists on pretending it's windows instead. Not acceptable.
Here is the solution:
- Qt is released under the LGPL.
- Mono (i.e. C# only without the dotnet environment) gets a native compiler
- GNOME is re-written in Mono+Qt
- Most of KDE migrates to the new GNOME
(the Qt library already there, C++ to C#
would be feasible)
- KDE goes the way of the dodo
Do unnderstand that KDE's strength in Europe
is nothing but SuSE's strength. The day SuSE
turns GNOME only (and the day will come),
SuSe users will forget about KDE.
I have nothing to add to that.
First, I wrote very large comment, how GNOME is better, etc. etc.
(Disclaimer: I am GNOME user for four years, and love progress and iniciatives of Ximian and Novell)
But, then I thought all about this and went to try to understand - why such outrage? One point is clear - SuSE was very big sponsor of KDE and now there is going to be less money for that. That I understand - If they have been fired all Ximian team (and I don't agree that Ximian was just empty dose, Evolution, Mono, lot of integration stuff - it makes sence, they are NOT stupid, and they can create income for Novell - in many ways), I would certainly feel the same.
But do I judge Novell? No, because they should do that. It was clearly painful choice - and they weren't ignorant about that. I even think that it wasn't easy choice in the eyes of Ximian team too - because in my opinion, they don't just be in war with KDE community. Actually, what I have seen that GNOME guys seems to want work more on common ground - desktop standards, D-BUS, HAL, etc. such things. However, KDE team looks for doing things their *own* way - and it is ok for that, but is is somehow childish. For example, KDE officially won't support gstreamer - there are some excelent KDE apps who does and will, but KDE just went to doing it in their own turf again. Why? Reading Gstreamer, everything is done to assure desktop envorement independence - gstreamer is NOT depend on ANY GNOME/GTK+ lib.
As from my point of view, I see that KDE guys was in the first place. They were best, they had most brainshare, they were "Unix desktop #1" - because most Linux desktop users where power users and hackers. However, times has changed and now Linux user base are consists more of common users, which, _in my opinion_, more preffer simplicity of GNOME. So, problem is there - is KDE are ready to change and finally accept GNOME (and drop the stupid and childish trolls, modded insightful or interesting, claiming that GNOME is error, stupid, Novell will die, etc.) as viable brother _or_ they will continue claim that they are wholy one?
In resume, I would like to say - I would like to see both desktops to stay and improve AND provide choice for many of new Linux users which will sure come. Let's not claim death of Novell, let's say - there should new coorporate desktop of KDE arise. Kubuntu could be good start for some company to create Kumbuntu Enterprise Desktop.
Let's go with peace, brothers - and improve things in our backyards.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
Novell funds Mono ($$millions) -> Miguel De Icaza
GNOME started by -> Migule De Icaza
Novell got $500M from MS.
GNOME divided linux's only hope to have a standard desktop (but QT lisence sucks ass indeed).
GNOME was left behind but Novell will resurrect it.
This is just economics and pardon me but Novell seems very much like MS's puppy that does everything it can to contribute to the division, confusion and contradiction of the OSS community.
(now block my IP for another month)
...that may make customers to run away from them and Novell can't afford that right now. The best solution would be a slow change, where both desktops would have full support.
Just to check, I started up a Gnome app while running KDE. No problem. The other way works fine too.
So you started a Gnome app while running KDE, big deal. Does your Gnome app integrate seamlessly with KDE's changes in look 'n feel, or drag 'n drop, or cut 'n paste as well as another KDE app would? Or does it work with the desktop as well as it would on Gnome? Nah, I didn't think so.
The parent poster hit the nail on the head. A customer gets a much better user experience from a unified desktop than one which is fragmented. Whether you like it or not the commercial *ix industry is standardizing on Gnome. It doesn't matter whether Gnome is better than KDE or not right now. It only matters that they do standardize for those people who want Linux to be a serious competitor on the commercial and consumer desktop. KDE won't die. It'll still chug along in the background supported by talented enthusiasts, but it won't be the outward face of Linux to the buying public.
So far, donations from "KDE enthusiasts" have been drop in the bucket.
http://kde.org/support/donations.php
Now, if Novell reduces or nixes its financial support, KDE may be in BIG trouble.
Finally, someone has taken a stance and picked one! I don't care what it is, they are both fully functional and get the job done, from any viewpoint. Yes, I'm a Novell guy and business partner so I'm biased, but this fragmentation of desktops has to stop. Or at least one needs to pull ahead so some standardization can happen.
They state KDE will still be on the machine, libraries and apps. So what's the big deal? You will probably still be able to pick KDE on OS installation but the default will be GNOME. You can load the GNOME libraries and run the management apps on KDE....
RedHat is GNOME. How could they not pick GNOME? It's not a huge technological jump on SUSE's part to support GNOME so stay with the flow to make desktops more standardized across all corporate distributions.
-m
http://www.invisik.com
You want KDE? http://www.kde.org/ Install it if you want. Isn't that the beauty of OSS... options are there for those who dare!
The name 'MyLinux' is used many times in different areas of technology and countries.
I just want to state here that this was just a temporary 'nick' name while the product is being created.
It is not associated with any other 'MyLinux' products out there at the time being.
The name will probably change somewhat when it is ready for distriubution, either on its own, or with another maintainer of a similar product and or names. :)
I will gladly loose all of life's battles.. in order to win the war..
While both QT and GTK+ applications cross-compile to various *nix distributions and Windows, GTK+ does not require licensing fees to produce a closed-source application like Acrobat. While there is a "free" version of QT for Windows, it's only free for GPL applications IIRC. You can't even use it for development of a non-GPL application and defer the licensing fees until you have been paid by a client.
Another useful feature of Gnome is it's underlying reliance on CORBA technology. There are CORBA gateways for J2EE (and presumably .NET) that should allow you to build a native client against a TP-based J2EE server with Gnome. I don't believe you can do that with KDE/QT, at least not as tightly integrated/standardized as with Gnome. I don't know of any companies that have actually implemented such an application, but it would theoretically allow you to address the GUI performance issues while still maintaining a J2EE infrastructure that can also support web interfaces for external users.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
If this hold true, after years as a SuSE beta tester, I can safely say I'll be looking for another distro.
Time to post this on the SuSE-e mailing list and see what shakes out. If I offended any GNOME users I apologize. But after years of shaking out bugs in SuSE versions, IMHO GNOME has been behind the curve for some time (at least in SuSE Linux) and frankly I find the GNOME interface to be obtuse and rife with political overtones I personally would like to avoid.
I understand why one interface would be preferable and the fact that Novell has chosen to focus on GNOME over KDE is no real surprise considering they bought Ximian (the best of the GNOME offerings IMO). But my dislike of GNOME is such that if SUSE defaults to GNOME (as did RH) then I will be shopping elsewhere...
OH Well - to each their own.
That single click thing stands as a massive red flag that KDE doesn't pay enough attention usability or it would have been changed a long time ago.
No, it is a massive red flag that nobody else pays enough attention to usability. Have you ever watched a new computer user try to double click? Preferably someone over 80? I have, they do not get double click. Even when they understand the concept (which is not intuitive at all), they are physically unable to do it fast enough while holding the mouse in one place.
Double click was forced on the world because Apple marketing insisted that their ads would be better if they could sell that you cannot push the wrong button. Apple didn't case, and doesn't care that this makes the computer harder to use, because it makes it look easier.
KDE is doing it right. KDE cares about doing things right, which is why KDE insists on keeping single click the default. (Sadly people like you arguing the wrong side are winning, too many people have learned the wrong way and are now untrainable)
If you look close at Windows you will find Microsoft is trying to go the same way. One of the more easily accessible settings in Windows 2000+ is single click activation because it is right. Unfortunately Microsoft has is stuck with the wrong convention current users are used to.
You know, what amazes me most about this--which none of the above replies seem to mention--is that a Slashdot editor actually made a spelling correction at all. It's fascinating and ironic that this correction, which is obviously debatable, was made, while other fundamental spelling errors (there/their/they're, etc) are regularly allowed to stand.
Keyboard not found.
Press F1 to continue.
Hurber Mantel, lead kernel dev and co-founder of SuSE Linux has announced that he is leaving Novell/SuSE. The talk on the Beta tester list is overwhelmingly negative in regards to Novell's decision to "standardize" to GNOME.
Seems Novell is likely to do with SuSE what they've done to everything else they've touched (can you say NetWare?). That's right, take a perfectly successful Linux distro and alienate your base. But this is the standard motis operandii at Novell, so they appear to be in fine character.
Pity really!!!
Exactly, reference to OS X as a path for commercial linux distro is important. Things have to be more concentrated on the services they offer: it is one OS, provided by one supplier, with one window manager, one this and one that for the needs of user. Natural. User has to be offered attractive OS choice, but once chosen OS, what's the sense for him to be demanded of further choices? What the sense for supplier to provide with them? KDE was made to look very good on SuSE, and make quite consistent OS environment, too. If there are technical and all the other reasons for company to change course - they had their part of responsibility facing them. As well as, they are supposed to benefit from that choice. User is supposed, too.