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Windows Incompatibilities Frustrate D.C. Schools
capouch writes "The Washington Post reports that school administrators for the DC public school system are having an awful time getting their new administrative software to work properly." From the article: "'In my experience, the combination of an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination,' Barlow wrote in the memo to Thomas M. Brady, the school system's chief business operations officer. 'In fact, through our research the last few days, we have found an advisory on the Apache website that states, 'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.' The Apache Group does not guarantee that the software will work as documented or even at all...Barlow said officials plan to replace Windows with a different operating system."
...for not properly researching what they were going to use. A little time before can save a lot of time after.
"Unix hardware"?
MOUNT TAPE U1439 ON B3, NO RING
How many years now has Windows support been experimental? Obviously they aren't serious about supporting Windows. If the school district feels they have to use Apache then they should run their web servers on something else, but that has little to do with the rest of the infrastructure.
The experimental warning applied to older 1.3.x versions and systems running Windows 9x/Me.
I wonder if they will choose Linux or OS X. These seem the likely replacement choices. With linux they could use existing hardware, but damn are those Xserves sexy.
I for one say good riddance.
Switch to Linux
Meh.
Obviously, they should be using Linux hardware.
liqbase
A different operating system that is NOT Windows...?
How long until Microsoft swoops in with salesmen and faulty TCO numbers to convince this county's school board to go all-MS?
After all, there wouldn't be these problems if the schools were using Windows XP workstations accessing MS-SQL servers running alongside Windows Server 2003 Enterprise IIS webservers. Right?
Because we all know it's cheaper that way, right? Right?
No penguins were harmed in the making of this post.
We were just working on fixing some web template errors with my friend, and we discovered that the copy of IE on our computers does not register and tags... yet every other browser did.
That's M$ for you!
In my experience it is more often bad management that causes problems, regardless of the underlying technology (good or bad).
I think I know what part of that equation is the culprit though.
"'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.' "
Ok...how is this a Windows issue?
Apache is not a plug and play webserver like IIS...or even other repackaged versions of Apache (which go out their way not to show they are really Apache).
Apache is not a webserver for anyone but experienced users -- at least on the administration side. Once you have it set up, its dead simple to use.
This is also one of the reasons on a lot of Windows installs, I simply use IIS and install PHP as it does everything I need for those installs. Its not like there is a big need for ModRewrite or other modules most of the time.
(note: on my own personal site, I run nothing but Apache -- I know how to configure it but it was a long and involved process to learn the ins and outs of it -- like the totally f'd up way virtual domains need to be configured -- something even veterans note is just wrong).
Posted anonymously because I know a slam to Apache generally isn't welcomed here!
UNIX hardware, Windows OS, Apache, and Oracle a bad combination?
No doubt they are trying to run Windows Server 2003 on a Sunfire cluster with Oracle and Apache running on it.
No wonder they are running into trouble....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Well, that's obviously their problem. They've melded their OS and HW together in some freaky Doctor Moreau experiment. Either that, or their IT guys suck. Apache works fine on Windows, if that's what you want to do.
as more people feel the consequences of Microsoft's lock-in policies. It is becoming apparent to more and more people that when one uses any Microsoft system or app, Microsoft controls your information and your IT decisions.
3 things about computers: they're alive, they're self-aware, and they hate your guts.
It just wouldn't be slashdot without an anti-Windows article now and again :-P
DxBlog - It's where you want to be
Inexperienced IT professionals find it frustrating setting up systems they have never set up before...
Dog Bites Man...
And the Sun will probably come up tomorrow... God willing.
Stayed tuned for more "News for Nerds... Stuff that matters."
Tell us when Windows does *not* frustrate an organization. Now *that* would be news.
Table-ized A.I.
I don't get why you'd want to run an Oracle DB on Windows. Or even a webserver on Windows. When I did Oracle DB programming, the Linux version, on the same hardware, ran a ton faster.....
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
"In fact, through our research the last few days, we have found an advisory on the Apache website that states, 'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users..."
"Through our RESEARCH"? Heh, some research. The last time I installed Apache for Windows, is said that Windows support was limited in both the README file and the online documentation page.
If this incompetent IT staff can't read the damn README file before installing a product they're unfamiliar with, I have no idea how they're going to handle an operating system transition.
Meria J. Carstarphen, the chief accountability officer, said that D.C. STARS has great potential and that some of the glitches are attributable to long-standing problems with the city's technology infrastructure.
I think that tells you something about the structure of the DC school district. A chief accountability officer? WTF? Is this because the other O-level folks don't have to practice accountability, or is it because they're simply used to having to defend themselves against charges of incompetence?
They've frequently had problems getting the school year to start on time. Back when I lived in DC, it was because of asbestos in the buildings, but there have been other reasons.
The city government as a whole has been a joke for as long as anyone can remember, so it's probably unfair to blame the school district alone. But somehow this late discovery that Apache really doesn't work best with Windows doesn't surprise me, given the source.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
How much time and money did they spend on a system without, apparently, having first determined if the various bits would play nicely together? How did they manage to get to the point of going live without testing? Why did the CIO discover fundamental issues only after system failures? Just who are these folks and why do they still have jobs?
Packages like Apache must expand beyond their current culture-base of experienced users, hackers, and so-called experts. You can't forever recite the axiom that things are difficult to understand simply because they are powerful or complicated. Be more clear next time.
Sure, the developers didn't do their research before jumping into a complex project. But I doubt any of the Apache/Windows/Unix/etc camps did much to help. We're used to obsolete documentation, no guarantees of fitness, and a perpetual "beta" mentality.
But it is our fault if it is complicated and perpetually broken. The next version will fix things...
Schools are always griping about how they are underfunded, well maybe if you didn't spend tens of thousands JUST on MS-Office site licenses alone, never mind Windows OS, you could be saving a bundle!
The schools are run by the boards of education, so the people in charge there need to hear and understand the open source message. Stop grovelling at the feet of Microsoft already!
Meh.
Ok,
they are running apache on windows I guess then? And that's the problem? Why are they running windows on "Unix Hardware"? What is "Unix hardware"? I can only assume they mean a Sun box? I didn't know Windows had a sparc version! I bet that's really awesome!
Anyway, from reading the article I get the impression that neither the interviewer nor the people interviewed have enough technical background to describe the problems accurately, much less fix them. The people interviewed are all managers who probably don't know the difference between c++ and VB, couldn't tell you what an OS actually is, or understand the difference between hardware and software (apparently).
In short, the story is that some managers who don't understand technology and were trying to deploy an apparently advanced web service for an entire school district never bothered to read the documentation of the software they were deploying, and then ran into trouble... I guess that's interesting, or news, or something..
"In my experience, the combination of an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination."
Windows on Unix hardware indeed. Most people wouldn't survive that experience.
Actually, and don't flame me, I'm trying to learn, what's so bad about Windows + Oracle + Apache? It's not perfect but hell, it doesn't sound terrible either. Oracle makes anything better.
TLoM: Nerds + DDR + Rednecks for the win!
Apache has only limited support for Windows, but still, Apache is a bitch to configure for any platform. And ORACLE? Look, Oracle is a problem in itself. But adding Apache, Windows, UNIX hardware, and then expecting a proprietary software solution (D.C. Stars) to perform is not Windows fault.
Windows is a lot of things. It is slow, it is insecure, but it cannot be blamed for errors in an untested software solution running on a proprietary DB solution with a webserver that does not support the Windows platform.
*nix zealots - thats the truth. I use Ubuntu at home, but i can appreciate a falllacy when I see one.
"Sure there's porn and piracy on the Web but there's probably a downside too."
I don't understand the mixing and matching of components. If they were going to run a windows server OS they should have just run IIS and SQL Server. If your going to your Unix then go with apache and oracle.
What were they thinking. I've seen IIS/Windows Server OS's/Oracle work fine and also seen Apache/Unix/Oracle work fine. But why would you go all windows with the OS if you didn't intend on using IIS? I've never seen any place use Apache on Windows in production. Why don't they throw in Lotus Notes and some Netware somewhere too, just for good measure.
I can tell you that the computer system is the least of their problems.
Uh, I'm viewing this in FireFox 1.0.6, and I see the effect of the (strong) tag, but what's the second tag supposed to be? The page source just has a blank space.
This is correct. Both Linux desktop and server marketshare has exceeded 1%, and should stay this way for the immediate future. Thank you for stating the obvious.
Your entire post appears to be completely unrelated to the story. Why turn this into Windows vs Linux debate?
I'm still trying to figure out the "and tags" part.
Meh.
But you get what you paid for.
My Weblog
All I can say is that once mid-August rolls around, your projects get rolled out, finished or unfinished. When the new school year starts, your code gets pushed out the door. You then spend the next week fixing anything that's not working well enough.
Of course, being perfect, all of my code worked correctly when it was needed.
Is it really incompatibility issues with Windows that should be highlighted here or the incompetency of the IT administrators that support the applications? Why on earth would you deploy something when it has "experimental" support for another piece of application that you know you will be widely using? Did they do any research or did they just choose tools they thought were the best in their specific areas (DB = oracle, web server= apache, os = windows) without thinking about interoperability?
No matter how easy it is to get the initial set up going, getting the final product working is still hard work. Anyone who produce a final decent product can usually figure out the details of startup. Those that can't figure out the details of startup also have trouble producing good designs. For instance, one school district is IE only, including the services that employees and students are supposed to access from home. This leads to problems with parents accessing school information, students accesing schedule information, and employees accesing pay and vacation information. Now, it might have costa bit more to get competant coders, but when one considers that the design affects 100,000 people, and in a multiyear investment, it probably would have been worth it.
Which is to say, let's get a good product out, even if it is hard, so we do not toture innocent users for years to come.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
>In the past week, a number of students found mistakes in their class schedules because of glitches in the computer system, which is called D.C. STARS and is designed to handle attendance, grading and the calculation of graduation and dropout rates, among other functions. School officials said at the time that the problem affected about 5 percent of secondary students.
This looks more like a problem with bad software than with the underlying operating system. The article doesn't list any actual problem they have with Windows.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Windows is the best operating system of choice for every situation. But provide actual facts as to the problems. "Underlying infrastructure" is too abstract to be of any use to anyone.
As for Apache on Windows... it works fine for me. I can't provide technological sources to disprove what the article says but my personal experiences with it have always been fine.
"Why turn this into Windows vs Linux debate?"
It is.
Read the topic of the article. The article's name was *meant* to start a Windows vs. Linux debate. The admins of the school district are more to blame than Windows itself, although I'm sure the fact that it's Windows doesn't help much.
Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
In this case, I think it really means hardware that Unix is running on, which could be almost anything.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
In my experience, the combination of an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination
Good job getting windows to work on "Unix Hardware", I never thought that was possible.
In fact, through our research the last few days, we have found an advisory on the Apache website that states, 'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.' The Apache Group does not guarantee that the software will work as documented or even at all.
Research first, then act. Dumbass.
Brady and Barlow said yesterday that employees at some schools were experiencing slowness with the system. But they denied that any school had been unable to use the system for a prolonged period.
That can be from any number of problems. Heavy loads are 1st, but that could stem from incompetence which could explain this whole problem.
Barlow said officials plan to replace Windows with a different operating system.
Well if you're "running" it on "Unix Hardware", then switching won't help since nobody knows what is going on anyway.
"The system has been slow the last couple of days; it's been off and on," Tarason said.
That happens with all systems, no matter what platform if you don't have the right people managing it. (Dupe comment too).
"Instead of the technology helping, it could be a hindrance," Roy said.
Technology is only a tool. I like to think of it as a simple filter or mathematical equation in which if you put crap in, crap will come out. It's not a magic box that makes everything right even if monkeys are pushing the buttons.
Sorry if this came off like a flame, but the article lacks any real information.
I say we put DC Councilman (and former Mayor) Marion Barry to work on the problem.
He'll snort and sniff and get to the root of the problem!
Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.
I was on a support call with a company last week. They actually told me that in order to correct the issue I was having with resetting my password on their website I needed to reboot my Windows XP box and try logging into their website again. Not just logout or even clear my browser cache or cookies...I HAD TO REBOOT! (Actual issue was the support person was sending me to the wrong web application but that's not the point.)
Goes to show that the article is right, Windows support is entirely experimental.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
The line about Windows support being "experimental" was REMOVED from the official Apache documentation a long while ago, from everything I can see, so unless they intended on running something earlier than the latest stable version - which is inadvisable on ANY OS, by the way - it didn't apply. Someone from the Apache Foundation should respond and officially clarify this apparently erroneous and highly misleading post. Isn't the OSS community just as "bad" as Microsoft if it resorts to posting FUD that quotes inaccurate "research" which seems to have involved blindly Googling for anything negative to do with Windows and Apache? This article is more likely to HURT the impression of OSS and Apache than help it, as it seems to suggest the Apache Foundation is knowingly providing "experimental" and unreliable software and calling it "stable". Also, from a logical perspective, one could infer from the original message that Oracle was just as much a piece of the problem as Apache/Win32, meaning they should... run MSSQL on Windows Server 2003?
There's just no logic here. It's more embarassing than Oracle's own "PHP vs. ASP.NET" garbage from awhile back, misleading to anyone running Apache on Win32 in production, who might switch to IIS if swapping out the entire OS isn't an option, etc.
Some oversight on these types of extremely goofy posts would be appreciated; simply mentioning any IT department's bad experience with Microsoft, especially when it seems like said IT staff have dubious research skills, shouldn't constitute newsworthiness.
Agreed. And I want to know what's up with the Michael Moorean title, "Windows Incompatibilities Frustrate D.C. Schools." Couldn't it just as easily be "Apache Incompatibilities Frustrate D.C. Schools?"
Given that the problem here is caused by Apache not functioning properly on Windows, shouldn't the headline be "Apache Incompatibilities Frustrate D.C. Schools?" Hell, given that the Apache programmers have been always made it abundantly clear that Apache does not work right on Windows, the title should really be "Idiotic choices by systems engineers frustrate D.C. schools?"
It's pretty pathetic that leading Linux evangelists have to go this far to come up with an anti-Windows story, but it should make Microsoft feel better that they do.
Parent is a troll for (at least) bogus donation link.
The name/password pair I got from BugMeNot.com worked fine to get past the 'registration required' crap at washingtonpost.com.
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Hmm I never would have guessed. Apache 2 has worked without problems for me as a service under XP Home edition.
Only thing I have problems with is that the service doesn't report problems when it can't start, so I have to run the non-service version to get error output. I guess that's to be expected as services might die and then restart, only to die again, and I wouldn't wait 10000 message boxes on my computer when I get up in the morning.
Corporate speak for "scapegoat".
I thought ME itself was experimental? As I remember a failed experiment. Or at least an experiment Microsoft would like to forget.
Hold on a second, There are some threads of truth here...
Yes commercial level support is not freely available for Free versions of linux, But neither is it available for Windows. If you need Microsoft to fix a problem for you it will cost $250.00 if memory serves. Now this is a good price but it does cost you something.
If you expect commercial level support you need to pay for it no if ands or anything else of that nature, The support staff and infrastructure needs to be paid for, do you expect people to work for free?
Also in this particular situation we are talking about linux as a server not as a desktop solution. Linux is a GREAT server solution especially in conjunction with oracle as a database system. Apache for windows always has been iffy at best, it runs OK but it's still a UNIX based web server project ported over to windows "just for fun". It is not intended to run any mission critical operations (that is just a catastrophe waiting to happen).
I think the fault here has to lie with the application vendor (dc stars?). In the end it's normally the application vendor that says "our software will work in an x+x+x environment and we support it as a whole. I don't know if that is what happened here but if the "chief accountability officer" didn't make sure the solution being provided worked properly and for that matter worked properly in their environment then this is a non issue, Off with whoever signed the contracts head, poof done..
Slashdot taught me how to use the preview button!
... IKEA stocks took a sharp rise today, bouyed by increased profit expectations.
"We've seen a huge surge in sales of our CEO model chairs in the Redmond area.", claimed Sven Bjorg. "It's almost like they have a wild animal in the area destroying them.", he quipped.
Wrapping up the news today, Redmond police are on the lookout for an apparent wild monkey in the vacinity of the Microsoft campus. "We are urging residents to stay indoors.", said Police Chief Bob Bobson. "We've had daily reports of an overweight monkey in a frenzy of crazed dancing, obsceneties, and violent behaviour. Please stay home and keep watching our updates on the internet. Our technical team tells us the safest choice of operating system is 'anything but Microsoft'."
(cue background noise of a monkey screaming)
The Linux vendors shouting the loudest are the ones with advertising budgets, hence they are there to make a buck. Redhat, Suse, etc... are there to make money. If you want the true benefit of using open source, you will need to do a bit of work and research. Linux distrobutions like Debian (among many others) are completely free and being used on servers and desktops alike around the world. So seek out distributions who have a policy of forever being free and not the bait-and-switch kind. Support, however, you will rarely find it fast and free. You might find free, via web forums and the like, but not fast and dependable. For fast, dependable support for your Linux systems, you will need to pay someone, just like in the MS-Windows world.
Meh.
is years old. And don't blame Windows for the school's poor research!
that's all
reenigne
How is this anyone but Apache's problem? Just because the Apache programmers are too stupid to do a proper windows implementation this is somehow Microsofts fault? Another title of this article could be "Inept DC Admins try experimental Apache software in live enviroment - fail and blame Microsoft" I ask again - WTF DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MICROSOFT?!
is this kind of a satire here?
;)
when evaluating any kind of software, you should take a look at the license- where, in kind of gpl or lgpl, you see how your impression fails.
gpl has its faults - but your fears are not that possible.
let your consultant explain, what a source is and maybe, where the origins of firefox determine it's future
i can understand if some pupil has a naive sight like this, but a good business woman should show a lillte bit more insight...
They shouldn't have used an insecure and proprietory operating system to begin with. Linux will solve the incompatibility problems as well as many other problems that would have appeared sooner or later.
I remember when it was mostly anti-MS articles. These days they seem to have more pro-MS... which I base on the fact that MS is now one of their advertisers. Yes, slashdot sold out long ago.
Meh.
So to sum it up, Linux is hard to use for newbies? Shit, why didn't I hear this before?
They had to put Windows up there to make it a valid Slashdot article. It wouldn't have been posted otherwise.
Leave it to Slashdot to take an article that shows complete incompetency on the part of the journalist and those interviewed, and make it a problem about Windows.
-David
The problem is when standards are violated, which most often is a Windows problem. Most of the problems with Samba (and Samba-NG) are caused by Microsoft, for example. Microsoft's current tiff with the EU, over not wanting to release network protocols to Open Source projects, isn't helping Microsoft's case any.
However, not all problems are due to Microsoft. The administration is, as has been noted by others, often to blame. Roxen, a rival Open Source webserver that supported SSL before Apache, is available for Windows 2000/XP. Apache 2.0.x has often been criticised for problems (causing many to stick with the 1.x branch) so if it's a problem with 2.0 which could be avoided with 1.x then they've only themselves to blame.
(And if they're using the Apache 2.1 tree for a production system, they're idiots.)
So there are solutions, you just need to look for them. Going with all-Windows, however, would not be one of them, unless you're working with a uniform Windows release, not just Windows. NEVER mix NT domains with Windows 200x domains, for example.
Also, because of architectural differences, drivers available for the XP core won't necessarily have counterparts in the 200x core. They may, but you cannot assume that. I believe it's XP that has IPv6 support, 2000 doesn't. That's just one example. The problem will likely worsen with Vista, particularly for graphics, as they've totally redesigned how graphics work. (Off-loading is a GOOD thing, but Microsoft has stated it doesn't document internal APIs, so compatibility isn't guaranteed.)
High-level software faces similar problems, where the API it is based on has been broken, so applications may or may not run correctly on different versions of Windows. DirectX software often faces this problem, as DirectX is not evenly maintained across code bases.
I would also avoid
All-*nix solutions are, as I've said, often better but they still have their problems. Binary-only software should work just fine on any *nix platform, because you can always ship the necessary libraries (and install whatever is not already there locally, using LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to the local version), or you can statically compile.
In practice, *nix programmers are just as liable to take shortcuts that damage compatibility or which are dubious practices. It is unclear who has done so, in the arguments beween Hans Reiser and the other Linux kernel developers, but I can guarantee a fully-functional Reiser4 would be in the kernel by now if everyone was following good practices.
DSM (Distributed Shared Memory) should be independent of how processes are shared, but OpenMOSIX' DSM is unlikely to be folded into the main kernel any time soon.
Applications are no better - you can't guarantee Oracle or DB/2 running on Linux platforms they weren't compiled for, even though (as I've said - and was saying when Oracle first mooted a Linux port!) such incompatibilities are optional and the choice of the developer(s) involved.
It is almost impossible to design a system that prevents crappy programming (by later system developers or by application developers), and where attempts to do this HAVE been made, nobody wants to use the systems.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's can be a real problem to set up Apache on Windows. The configuration is time-consuming and error-prone, and gets worse if you want to support MySQL and php. There are a couple of WAMP aggregations out there (Apache2Triad is the one I used last.) and I would suggest using those. Keep in mind that updating your WAMP installation can still be a problem.
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
Its rare these days that US school districts aren't 100% Microsoft shops, so its very good to see this happening. As others have commented I'd wonder what the rationale for running Apache on Windows in the first place was, while yes it generally works its far from the best solution and IMHO the admins should have known better.
Damien
Thanks, I prefer GNU hardware.
The very fact that the Linux Kernel needs to be recompiled to extend it is a strong indictment against it.
Likewise, the fact the Linux kernel can be recompiled to remove support for hardware that a particular computer will never see (to reduce memory overhead, or boot-times perhaps), is a HUGE plus in some people's books. I see no particular reason for a particular linux kernel to support every single IDE or USB chipset under the sun for the sake of compatibility, when I only need it to support one (mine). That is can be more 'extending' then recompiling the kernel to add features. And yes, maybe a modularized kernel provides more flexibility, but sometimes a 'monolithic' kernel is more suitable. Like when the ni65 module refuses to load on boot for no apparent reason and you can't SSH into your sandbox server anymore.
One man's faults will always be another man's features.
This sounds, plain and simple like the wrong tools for the job.
Generally speaking, I advocate the use of web-based apps for things like this. While you have to get it hammered into standards, once thats done you are going to not only pretty safe for cross platform use, but you have yourself insulated from the upgrade cycle. Userland apps to interface with a database seem to be increasingly a problem waiting to happen.
Besides I also cant imagine they are getting anything other than taken for a ride with Oracle, should be using Postgres instead, particularly if you have apache and *nix
"the combination of an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination" - what a worthless discovery. If they wanted M$ they should use MS/IIS/MSSQL. If they wanted GNU, they should use Debian, Apache, PostgreSQL.
I've met (and know) many Linux experts and Windows experts in my lifetime... and my conclusion is that the Linux experts are MUCH more proficient in problem solving and technical skills than any of the Windows experts.
Meh.
How many others here have set up apache under
windows?
God what a waste of time.
I remember using the wrong text editor and
apache unable to read the config script. ARGGG....
As if it wasn't hard enough to setup....
and don't get me started on unix backslashes(/) vs windows forward slashes (\).
Afterwards i found II's to be better at handling
windows crash and burn schemes, if you're running
windows, use II's and nothing else.
But if you're serious about webserving:
setup apache under *bsd or linux and go from there.
The admins in this article are a little confused.
Perhaps they should look at embedded linux for
their webserving.
---
Shortest sig ever.....? what ? it's not the
shortest? Well who has the shortest? Whoever
has the shortest please stand up.
wtf, its not a troll at all. Think before you post. I'm sure if the article had been how a linux system wasn't working properly and he had made the same statement you would have modded him up.
He's right you know, The school board did a stupid thing and came to a stupid conclusion. I'm all for open software but these guys can't even figure out windows, how do you expect them to figure out unix? Cause if they had these problems with linux I'm sure you'd be saying how stupid the school board is, and modding the grand parent +5 informative.
dump the proprietary unix hardware, get some commodity x86 hardware and install Linux / Apache.
Meh.
1. Cry loudly that you are going to switch to Linux.
2. Wait a week for the Microsoft sales team to show up and offer you extreem discounts and some free stuff.
3. Get paid personal kickback$ from MS for giving them the school business.
4. Profit!!
Windows on Unix hardware indeed. Most people wouldn't survive that experience.
Don't forget about the DEC Alpha version of NT 4.0, which ran quite well... if all you needed was basic Windows NT Domain file and print services since no 3rd party worth practical mention was ever really released for that platform. NT 4 was even available on the MIPS and IBM PowerPC (RS6000 small boxes) platforms too, which were primarily first and foremost intended as Unix hardware.
Windows 2000 almost made it (and sorta did) to the DEC Alpha platform, but had its legs chopped out from under it after Compaq basically cancelled the Alpha program in late 1999 and thus MS officially dropped support for the Alpha platform as well.
Maybe they thought it was some obscure acronym.
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
Large parts of the D.C. city government are both corrupt and incompetent. Think of it as New Orleans on the Potomac. Remember this is a population which saw videotape of Mayor Marion Barry smoking a crack pipe in a hotel room with his mistress and then re-elected him when he got out of jail.
a rticle/2005/08/18/AR2005081801769.html
c le/2005/08/18/AR2005081801769.html
In example, the officers and members of the Teacher's Union did not notice that five million dollars was missing. They didn't figure out something was wrong until union leaders were coming in to work wearing mink coats. Stuff like this happens all the time in D.C.
Teachers' Union Trial Nears End
URL:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti
Speaking as someone who's set up Oracle on Unix, Oracle on Windows, IIS on Windows, Apache on Windows, Apache on Linux, and just about every other combination possible, the headline for this article is inexcusable.
/., but somebody's gotta say it.
What you have here is a variety of applications (the OS being only one of them) that don't like to play well together. But the real kicker is this: please explain to me how it is Microsoft's fault that Apache -- an application that specifically states in the docs that Windows is an unsupported platform -- is not working properly? Since when did Gates & Co. become responsible for the success (or lack thereof) of everyone else's programming efforts?
There is only one sensible thing that can be gleaned from this "news" item: the more vendors you involve in any solution, the greater the difficulties in getting them all to play nice together. This is something Microsoft understands very well, and it's why Microsoft makes billions of dollars selling relatively mediocre solutions that interoperate pretty darn well. Sure, you could take a best-of-breed approach to every single software component on your machine, but it's very likely that the overall costs of ownership -- which includes administrative manpower costs -- will greatly overwhelm any perceived cost savings or feature enhancements. Simply put, you're going to spend more time chasing down interoperability bugs than you are getting useful work done. It's heresy to speak such truths here on
BTW, this truism remains true whether you go with an all-MS environment or any other relatively homogenous solution. The fewer cooks in the kitchen, the less the chance the broth will be spoiled.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
That explains Geeks lack of sex.
My God, it is. When did they sneak that lameness by? It leaves a trivializing ring to what historically has been a force on Capital Hill.
Sounds to me that like there I.T. staff and or I.T. out sourcing company does not know what the hell there doing. As long as they have the good sense to run Oracle off of the Unix box. Then I would see no reason why they could not run a database driven website from the windows box using the data store on the Unix box. At least they are not throughing IIS into the picture [ blec..]
You know what I see when I scroll through the comments to this article?
Some people pointing out that this is essentially not a Windows problem but a management/sysadmin/apache problem, and some others saying "look at all the Linux zealots!"
Linux zealots? Where?
Sure, the story poster may not have seen clearly what was going on, but then again, the article was written by the ignorant interviewing the ignorant, so who can blame them for having the wrong opinion.
I'm sick and tired of people trolling on the biases of the Slashdot crowd, only to have the highest moderated posts betray the fact that they are really just speaking of their own biases.
They:
Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver
Mine:
MySQL database, WindowsXP OS, Apache 2.
OR: MySQL, Linux, Apache 1
Now, was that so hard? Anyway it seems to me that what they tried to do was keeping oracle compatibility to save a few hours in porting the sytem. Oh well.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
I couldn't have said it better (which sounds strange coming from someone like me). I shall yield to the best post I've seen under this topic yet....for now.
I post at -1. Clearly I'm not a poster child for slashbot.
How can anyone on /. really suggest that changing Windows to whatever is going to solve the problem, when the article doesn't say what the problem is? Does anyone actually think that the IT people are competent enough to setup and run a non-windows operation system if they can't even get windows to run right?
Whatever happened to just keeping an attendance book?
Instead of spending the continually increasing spending in education on technology crap that really is not needed, how about increasing teacher salaries to attract higher quality teachers.
And the funny part is he hasn't yet figured out that the same problem exists on unix, it's called "oracle". Amazing what a company can do when 90% of the budget is put towards marketing. IE: taking upper level IT out to dinners, ball games, vegas...
We were unfortunate enough to implement it at my current place of employment. Needless to say, the upper level IT who green lighted it without asking a single end user no longer are employed.
'Slashdot headlines frustrate readers'
I have 3 words for this article:
WAKE UP EDITORS.
It clearly states Windows isn't at fault, so WHY must you put this 'Windows causes all problems, no matter what the article REALLY says' spin on everything AS OFTEN as you can? Grow up, and get some journalistic integrity.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
First Massachusetts, now Schools in D.C.! Quit complaining people! Just take out a bank loan and give the money to Microsoft! Afraid to do what many companies are forced to? The latest version is whatever Microsoft decides, and they reserve the right to raise income by changing file formats as their shareholders see fit! And you can cut out this nonsense about being OASIS compliant! The shareholders have determined that their margins cannot be maintained when people have control over their own data, so you know OASIS is out of the picture (they don't care if it's XML, it's not XML with Microsoft's DRM tags in the XML header file, so it's not Microsoft compatible). Short answer: pay Microsoft a few hundred million and all of your problems will go away!
I keep thinking to myself, "Hey, if they'd bought an Apple solution, it would have been dead easy."
Of course, done properly the setup they chose is dead easy, but I'd expect that someone was put in charge of the project that has some other sort of duties. If that's true, for that reason I can sympathise, as that's why I have to make as many uninformed last-minute decisions as I do.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Ha ha!
-Nelson
They did exactly the right thing.
You don't choose an OS and then choose your main-line applications.
You choose the applications you need to run, in order to get whatever job you need done, and then you choose an operating system based on those applications.
In this case, they want or need Apache as a web server. That's a fine, defensible choice. It's popular. It's pretty easy to find support on it, even without a contract. Most sysadmins are familiar with it. It has a good track record. Etc.
They also want Oracle -- exactly why they'd want to do this I'm not sure, but they do. Fine.
Based on that, they should review their choice of an operating system. And from that, they should determine their hardware requirements. Absent of a lot of legacy applications or something which predetermine the OS and hardware decision, there isn't any reason why a person should pick a OS before they choose their software. That's just backwards.
Basically, it sounds like someone just was slightly lazy and didn't want to make the tough call and tell their bosses that they needed a new operating system for their server, and now they're paying the price. Perhaps that's a result of their institutional culture, I don't know. But it sounds like they finally understood that they went the wrong way.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
My experience is that applications designed to run on Windows work well, but application ported to Windows from Unix/Linux often have problems, either bugs, incomplete support, bad installers, or just plain lousy documentation (because the docs all assume *nix). Windows + IIS + SQLServer probably would have been easy to set up and would have worked for them. Windows + Apache + Oracle? Well, that assumes the administrators are already familiar with Apache and Oracle on *nix, and can figure out from the FAQs and release notes what they need to do different to get things to work on Windows. Trying to run *nix-centric software on Windows always seems to have issues. But, the other way around is at least as bad: Apps ported from Windows to *nix usually have bad issues too. So why the headline that says this is a Windows problem? As far as I can see, this is always a problem when taking apps away from their native platform.
I don't see any problems with alternative VFS layers - hell, you're not going to persuade me there's no redundancy in the Linux code. Sometimes, redundancy is the BEST way to do a job, as overly generic code can be inefficient or harder to debug (because it has to remain compatiable with so many different sub-units of code).
So, redundancy of VFS code cannot be the real, underlying reason. Linux is built to be modular and there are plenty of places where alternative mechanisms are offered. It would seem "obvious" enough to shift Reiser4's VFS code to run in parallel with the existing VFS code, such that you can use either or both. If the hooks are similar enough, it wouldn't be hard for other FS maintainers to allow you to choose.
Because this is an obvious solution, there can be one of two possible reasons it isn't being done - either Reiser4's VFS -or- the existing one is brain-damaged enough that running them truly in parallel would be unsafe.
This wouldn't be a first. When the VMM was replaced, it took enormous effort because there were so many direct hooks into it. That is why kernel stabilization took so long - the change was so utterly gigantic, impossible to verify and guaranteed to have unpredictable results.
If the filesystem layer is as unwieldy and poorly abstracted, parallelizing the two methods would be very difficult indeed. (In the VMM case, you can't abstract well, because that would add too much latency. With disk I/O, the disk has far more latency than the kernel, so you can design much cleaner methods.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This article doesn't cast a shadow on Windows (there's plenty of other ways to do that), it casts a shadow on whoever planned this system.
That's not to say you couldn't get their software working ... it'd just take a ubergeek to get it right :P
Damn microsoft! I am running a pirated copy of windows on DEC hardware I stole from some dumpster and running Kazaa on it downloading P0rn and it is not running stably! Dernit bill gates!
"I think you'll find similar words from Microsoft regarding all of their products, and most software from most vendors in general. There are no guarantees in life, period. Software companies just spell it out. This is as amazing a revelation as the "Caution: risk of electric shock, injury, and death" label on my toaster."
Yes, this is just what I thought when reading the OP and TFA.
In fact, most end users I encounter having some trouble with software ask something like, "Shouldn't this work?"
Well, I can only reply that the EULA clearly states that this software is sold with the understanding, via its "merchantability" clause, that it may do anything or nothing and is sold for no particular purpose whatsoever except that you get a license to use it.
One corp executive PHB type even said, "What the #@&*!?" and then after a few seconds of reflection, "I wish we could get away with that."
OLE, COM and all that stuff could have been avoided. Remote calling had been implemented a long time before in the form of Sun's RPC and which Windows now uses a great deal. Shared memory had been done a number of ways - SunOS had "Doors" and System V had SHM (which later made its way into Linux). Actually, there was a version of Doors for Linux, too, but the maintainer stopped work on it.
Later, more complex systems came along. Most clusters, for example, use DSM - Distributed Shared Memory - to share memory blocks. The usual method of communicating between computers on a LAN at a high level of abstraction is MPI. CORBA is still used, albeit not much, but at least it is an official standard. CORBA 3 provides mechanisms for real-time support and Quality of Service.
The other problem with
Also becoming more popular are extranets and co-location. (Probably more so, after recent hurricanes.)
Finally, High Availability is also becoming the norm. At the present time, I don't believe
Precisely for all these reasons,
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
and everyone here should just be glad that they have rooms to put the computers in. The place is a shithole. They should worry about teaching all the kids there their ABCs. After that they can worry about computers, record keeping, etc. Really, the first thing they need to know how to do is their job. After that they can worry about everything else.
Exactly what I was going to post.
Microsoft, and sadly, the average public sector IT guy who's mostly interested in keeping his job than Doing The Right Thing (TM) will be quick to blame Apache and Oracle as being not Windows compatible and not the other way around.
I foresee a loss for both Oracle and Apache and a gain for both MS-SQL and IIS, unless they have a very enlightened IT director.
I am pretty confident that you Mysql/XP alternative would allow a terrific performance for the few thousand end users.
lucm, indeed.
A couple of them are pretty girls, but I could have done without the foot-licking and the cutter.
They've gotta be German. What the fuck is it with Germans and licking feet?
+++ATH0
LINUX
can you say linux ?
I knew that you could!
They're using their grammar skills there.
After reading TFA I think all that can safely be said is that neither the reporter nor the school personell that were interviewed have a clue. I'd be more inclined to say, on that basis, that the clueless personell are likely the problem, not too much or too little homogeneity or a particular OS or daemon or whatever.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
This story is bizarre.
Sounds like some bozo SA is having a hard time installing this thing and is just tossing crap to management. "Ummm, uhhh, it don't work cause Windows sucks"
I'll assume the documentation is crap, so where is the vendor who wrote the thing? They should be the ones making it work.
Help me take back Slashdot. When did 'News for Nerds' become 'FUD and Conspiracy Theories for Extremist Nutjobs'?
Yeah, who the hell needs those posh database servers. MySQL ought to be enough for everyone - after all, you can easily install it on XP.
Kiddie-nerds and their "standard combinations". So cute. *chuckle*
... not even a very good troll.
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
You vastly overestimate the school's budget. They're probably trying to make it run on something like this.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
This man should be arrested under the Patriot Act and tried as a terrorist.
I've been using Apache2 on windows machines for several years now. Disregarding the occational crash under very special circumstances, it has worked like a charm for me. It's been just as stable as the servers running on my FreeBSD and Linux boxes.
From the Apache2 features doc: "With the introduction of platform-specific multi-processing modules (MPMs) and the Apache Portable Runtime (APR), these platforms are now implemented in their native API, avoiding the often buggy and poorly performing POSIX-emulation layers."
Maybe there's a problem with whatever modules they're using?
ITS BROKEN.... ok whats wrong with it.... IT WONT WORK.... ok what is it doing.... NOTHING.... ok is it turned on?.... OF COURSE IT IS ON DO U THINK I AM AN IDIOT.... no sir, what operating system is it running... WINDOWS... there is your problem sir... WHAT SHOULD I DO... not waist ur money on windows... MY COMPUTER CAME WITH IT... im sorry... :( ... :p
(yes i know i suck at spelling fell free to correct my grammar and/or spellin i dont care, im still not going to change
When I was a kid everything was done on paper in attendance books and grade books. These people are acting like they've suddenly lost a vital organ and can no longer function.
If a computer crashes and I need to record data, I can usually find a pen and paper to hold me over until I get the computer problem figured out.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
"does not guarantee that the software will work as documented or even at all"
The same as pretty much all other software??
b3 4phr41d 0f my 4bov3-4v3r4g3 c0mpu73r kn0wI3dg3!
MadDwarf
For quick comparison, I've assembled the links from their docs page:
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/windows.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/cygwin.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/netware.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mpeix.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/unixware.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/readme-tpf.html
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
Kinda sad.
I note that in the entire blurb all the talk was about "Brands" Apache, Windows, UNIX and not about the ideas "what was the software doing with what data"
In fact most of the posts on Google and Slashdot seem to be "Brand" specific as if Marketshare was all that mattered.
When will people start asking questions outside of Brands and specific to the problem.. seems like a discussion on threads, stacks, lists, queues, trees, and processor efficiency of OS's that happened to cross hardware platforms (Solaris, now Mac, at one time Windows) would be far more useful.. even such a discussion regarding scripting versus pre-runtime compiled languages.
In my opinion. even Assembly isn't just an economic question (so many people assume its always the most efficient, most expensive to code in for time and money) all assembly and neuvo "VM bytecode" programming seems "macro" scripting to me.
It also seems like the virus writers are actually more than just script kiddies these days.. they kept on the straight and narrow and reversed the questions turning them in upon themselves until they now see clearer than most of the posters to blogs like Slashdot these days.. how often does someone look at delivered code and try to see what loading mechanism is used.. what C compiler method was used for instantiating a variable?
I don't even see the Computer Scientist focusing on more than just arbitrary political discussion about who should get credit for something done years ago in a university setting far far away.
Me thinks we actually need a new branch of Computer Science.. Hardware InVivo through software manipulation.. or some such.. a little out of the way speciality that deals with practical matters to attract neuvo geeks.
Weak, seriously...
Hi,
> The Apache Group does not guarantee that the
> software will work as documented or even at all...
if you read the MS EULA you will find similar rules, so whats the point.
CU
9000h
What's up with all these comments/articles of people supporting 20,000-200,000 users, creating an email system for around 1 million users? Are techies outsourcing their talent to alien races (non-homo sapien) that have no technical knowledge and huge populations OR these techies are creating server farms for spammers OR somebody's been in their mother's basement to long and has visions/delusions of grandeur?
You need an informed person to help you understand these things better, you have been misinformed to say the least.
-- NT --
I was so excited to read that! I thought someone had perfected a Star Trek-esk machine to pop off chips for free. I read "Unix hardware" and thought to myself (thinking more linux than unix), "Jesus, I need to find that free-as-in-beer hardware ASAP!"
Even if it was true, the question remains... would you need a WINE chip to run a *Nix CPU with Windows RAM.
Yeah, dumb question, because everyone knows most people would just run a CYGWIN monitor with the optional CYGWIN compiled GNOME mouse/keyboard/webcam. But, rate of conversion to all *Nix hardware would be high, considering the mandatory Teledildonic EULA Anal Invader hardware that would come with Windows Vista 2.0.
I8-D
It takes two to tango. Contractors cause more problems than their government clients.
In a former life I was a government employee deeply involved in bringing several IT systems online, from writing requirements to staff training to getting rid of something we didn't like.
Corruption of government employees was not an issue. Lack of research by government wasn't an issue.
The biggest single problem I saw was the creation of inadequate requirement specs. I saw this happen over and over for two reasons: 1) Governmenr employees lacked the technological backgrounded needed to express their needs in terms that their IT contractors could understand; 2) Contractors, especially those hired to help write the requirements, lacked awareness of their clients business needs and processes.
So, in effect, the government knew what it wanted to do but not how to translate that into a requirements doc, and the contractors did not know very much, and did not want to know very much, about the work done by their client. As a result contractors threw assorted pieces of their IT catalog against business processes they only vaguely understood.
I don't know how it works in DC, but in my environment, it would have been the contractor's responsibility to check the Apache website for that caveat about the Windows version. That's what they're paid to do.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
This article seems as if the real complexity that is causing the problem was just too daunting to try to summarize in an article for the non-technical world, so they just quoted something off a website. What is the *real* problem? I have built and maintained systems based on exactly that combination of software without any issues... granted, the particular configuration, scope, and size is most assuredly different, but I doubt "Apache support being experimental" on windows is the beginning and end of this issue.
...but have you tried to get a Unix version out of them recently?
A steel construction firm I have as a client keeps asking them for a Linux version of AutoCAD. Up until 2002, they said "No, and no plans for it". Since then, they've been alternating between "no" and "soon". Most of their home page doesn't even display under Konqueror. Dinosaurs.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...MS-Windows services running on Sparc hardware. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Just checking. A Minesweeper-Consultant-and-Solitaire-Expert I work with did this very thing (but FC3 on a Dell server), blamed the Linux box. Turned out that his Win2k3 box needed a lucky gipsy kick in the reset button. Big surprise all round.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Here's the real incompatibility: Combining Unix, Apache, Oracle, Windows, *AND* the DC School System.
I'm not a system admin, Oracle expert, or network guru, and I've gotten his combination up and running many times. Okay, it isn't painless and I find it a bit frustrating, but then again, setting this stuff up isn't technically my job.
Now, the DC school system is something else. They couldn't get two tin cans and a piece of string to network together. Compared to the DC government bureaucracy, the Somalian National Government is more organized and better run.
...but that warning applied only to a very old edition of Apache 1.3.x; there have been many editions since for which the warning does not apply, and it has never really applied to the Apache 2.0.x development stream.
IPOF, nobody can guarantee stable operation of their software on any version of MS-Windows unless they manage it themselves on HCL-only hardware and firewall it thoroughly.
I would disagree with the grandparent poster, as well. Just don't use the MS-Windows boxes at all whenever you can avoid it. A skilled admin can maintain roughly 10 to 20 Linux or *BSD workstations for each MS-Windows workstation (s)he axes.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
- concise
- maintainable
- secure
- efficient
- portable and
- prolific
than anything they could ever have done in VB.However, I understand what you're getting at. It's a dog's breakfast, structurally, a massive swiss army knife rather than a toolkit. I'd much rather use mod_ruby.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Frankly I'm surprised that they're complaining of this, as this issue is well known now for some time. Microsoft has never ever wanted to play ball with anyone outside of their circle. Sheesh, why do you think they had all that hoopla going on over anti-competitive behavior???!!! I had a friend of mine who I watched Microcrap drive them out of business back in the early 90's over simply wanting to carry and sell Redhat Linux. And we all know and remember Mr Gates only giving Netscape the other half of the carving up of the net~!!!!
If they want to run a decent server, you have to get away from Microsoft and at least stay with the Mac, or look at a managable server platform such as Sun, Linux, et al.
Cheers
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.
...are doomed to reinvent UNIX, poorly. Which is what Bill did.
:. Chaos reigned.
MS-Windows does in fact use / as a path-element separator as well as \. Try it some day with the filesystem call of your choice, it works. MS-Windows also uses : as a drive letter separator. Drive letter? D'oh!
IPOF, CP/M didn't use / as an option character (didn't understand the concept of "option character" at all) and even in MessyDOG it was programmable (that's what syscall #37h did, AL=0 means read, AL=1 means set to char in DL; so MOV #3701,AX; MOV '-',DL; INT #21) and you could set it in C:\CONFIG.SYS as well (SWITCHAR=-).
Only a few programs (e.g. PIP) used consistent option characters in CP/M. The name, the slash, and even some of the options were borrowed wholesale from RT11. CP/M business apps seldom touched the command line, and when they did they UNIX ports used -, the NorthStar and Durango ports used (, some other bizarre thing that I can't even remember the origin of used [ and another used
The problem was, even some of Microsoft's own programs had the / hardwired in, and they really hid the option character set and query syscalls quite well. But for that, it would be all over in one syscall. Once I tried setting the switchar to a hyphen in MS-DOS, but enough programs had it hardwired to make the result unworkable.
I distanctly remember writing a string into a C program which had to be passed to something else on the command line, and it came out at eight backslashes in the C source.
Backslash as escape is far from limited to C. Many assemblers use it, PHP, Python, PERL, Ruby, many shells, VisualBASIC, C#, awk, most regexes and so on.
The backslash is, was and always has been a stupid decision on Microsoft's part.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Apache 2.0.x is used for production on many MS-Windows servers, as are many versions of 1.3.x from shortly after the wonky one.
MS-Windows components snapping together like Lego? What?
Well, maybe, but only if your Lego set's mother was exposed to heavy doses of radiation. The MS-Windows components are really odd shapes, and you need other really odd shapes to snap together with them. You might be able to edge in a case for the argument based on Techno and those purpose-built (ie utterly alien to Lego's founding principles) Lego characters and components being sold these days, but you really would be edging it in.
To see genuine Lego-like interoperability, you really want to visit the land of Unix.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The problem in this case isn't a technical one per se. It is a classic failure in project management. We can talk all day about the technical merits of implementing it "this way" or "that way", but if they don't listen to the technical side for feasability and design then actually test our their design, then the PMO's projects will die a horrible flaming death (like the D.C. project has).
Sounds like their were critical failures in the interoperability and "testing" departments before go-live.
I can't believe that they are not going with an all M$ solution. I see plenty of LAMP solution stories on-line, but I only see M$ solutions in the real world. Kudos to them.
What an astounding lack common sense! Who the f*ck chose this configuration? Does the notion "it has to work" every come into play in the bidding process? Management could do everyone a huge favor by firing themselves.
- The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
Stupid & lame people working under more stupid & lame people. Same story all over again.
:(
If the actual IT people were worth even a dime, they'd try deploying on GNU/Linux or one of BSDs, if it really didn't work on Windows as they claim. They could simply agree between each other that they won't tell the management because the management is clueless anyway. And the management doesn't ask questions if things work, most of the time that is. I mean, will those school district types ever look at the server console during bootup to make sure that what boots up is actually Windoze? C'mon, to me it all looks like a total lack of problem solving skills. The IT people should get the stuff working vs. idly complaining to the management "gee whiz we ran into trouble, boss".
To me it looks like the IT guys were clueless and just couldn't solve the problem, so they relegated the blame onto an open source project. And the media just love it, because -- like usual -- the media weren't any wiser than the dumb IT people. It's pretty sad.
This is pathetic to the n^th power, like always when politics get involved
Disclaimer:
The assumption is that the application itself is written in something platform-neutral, which might or might not be the case. Then still, there can be ways to make the web/db server run on a unix box, and just the application to run on Windoze. And so on. I don't/won't believe they really faced insurmountable obstacles.
Apache isn't working properly for them?
It's too bad they didn't go with an open source solution that they could custom tailor..
er...
Article heading should be changed to 'School has computer problems, what's new?'
Schools are fucking retarded, mainly because they always about some techno-nut teacher as the IT person in charge of making the school computer decisions because that teacher has the rest of the school believing s/he is the resident computer god.
Dropping Windows because they can't get a program installed? Sounds like the program needs to be dropped!
Why is this on SlashDot?
Why doesn't slashdot do an article on me because I had major trouble this past week trying to get freeradius installed?
I used to work for a public school system just south of DC public schools (not going to specify which - but if you look at a map, it's pretty close ;-) both as the webmaster and the tv production lead. This type of $hit went on all the time. Suits making decisions (not that bad a thing) but without getting ANYONE to research the decsion before it was made (bad thing) - so they ended up in a bigger hole of broken software, incompatibilites, more users (teachers) frustration, more outages and downtime.. The tech head who was just brought it was all gung ho about bringing in IBM Blade servers and a SAN. While the SAN would be useful, the Blade servers would not be. But none of it really would matter, nothing would be mananged properly anyway!! (see example)
;-), network problems, bad design everywhere... I still remember a tornado warning during my last few months there were a number of schools were in the predicted path of the tornado, but VOIP phones were down (a common occurence) - they had no landline phones for backup AT ALL - and they only way they could get in touch was by celphone and later walkie talkie.
I mean, c'mon!! They switched EVERYTHING to VOIP. If done right, that's not that bad a thing. But they didn't do it right. Piss poor network admins (not all of them of course - some were quite good and the only reason the school system worked half as well as it did - CMyA in case you guys are reading
They run a hideously old web server on a hideously on platform mainly because it's (not a money issue) easier to keep it going than it is to get something proper, new, far more capabilities, etc.
This $hit happens all the time. Management strikes a rare gem now and then (I like to think i was one of them when I was there - I had my act together - I devoted my life to that place while I was there), but ultimately they don't have the money to attract competent hires. Because Public School for so long has felt like a black sheep fighting a losing war, they have no problem hiring (at menial pay) people who barely know what they are doing. It's par for the course.
Haha.. this turned into a bit of a rant.. but really, this type of obvious to us nerds proper thinking is totally absent in public schools (I've traveled to numerous school systems during my employ - it's the same everywhere).
I know I made a difference while I was there, but I'm so glad I quit.
Let's be clear -- you've been referring to
Under the DMCA, it is illegal for Americans to reverse-engineer unpublished components of
MONO seems to have done this without legal troubles (thus far). Mainly due to the above published standards with the ECMA.
The
Also becoming more popular are extranets and co-location. (Probably more so, after recent hurricanes.)
I find this to be a bizarre statement. As I've said,
Finally, High Availability is also becoming the norm. At the present time, I don't believe
Microsoft Clustering Services (MSCS - aka the "Wolfpack" cluster) has been available with hot standby for several years as 2-node active/passive, I believe it's up to 8 nodes now and allows for active/active too. You can go further with simple Pile-of-PC's for web farms, since most highly available Windows configs that I've seen put the session state in a central database, and use MSCS to harden the database. Both Oracle and SQL Server 2000 have facilities to use MSCS; I think Oracle calls this "Failsafe", which is a separate facility from their "Real Application Clusters" (RAC) approach.
This is not to say that Microsoft has had a lot of success with getting people to use MSCS. In 1998 it was the next great thing to make Windows scale to a mainframe, but 7 years later it's been relegated to "just another feature". It's not really used except for the largest SQL Server installs, such as the one at Verizon (which is over 9 terabytes, for their billing system).
I think the main issue is that they took a very academic approach to what "clustering" means, and as such it's a completely general clustering service, similar to the Veritas HA Cluster Service. That means people have to build or intrusively retrofit their software to specifically USE the clust
-Stu
Don't bother responding. It's an obvious troll. Ugh! an don't click the link in the sig. God. Wish these idiots would get a life.
Your story only says that a particular group of contractors were incompetent. You could have hired a group of kindergartners (for less), but that would have been illogical (too many child labor laws). Instead your organization went with contractors that neither cared nor were able to meet your needs. That's not their fault, that's an organizational/planning fault. Responsibility can't just be transfered to someone else. If you dont trust someone to do something (right) in your place, you might as well do it yourself.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
The real problem is most likely related to incompatibilities with their Intel software board. Maybe they should upgrade it to 4GHz of hard drive memory.
Trust me. This is an inactive account. Regardless of what the
Went looking for more info on this system.
Here's http://dcstars.k12.dc.us:50825/ the home page.
Here http://www.aalsolutions.com/7_esis/tech.asp is the technical specs of the eSIS system from the company who developed it, AAL.
As you can see, supposedly it works with everything - Windows, Mac, UNIX, whatever. A three-tier system.
I got sidetracked in my search because I found a document that referenced IBM, so I thought they developed it. Nope - their Student Information Practice consultants were apparently contracted for implementation assistance only.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Thanks for clearing that up. Definitely makes more sense now, particularly given what the GAO does.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
It's pretty clear the CTO also has no clue. All of the symptoms seem to point to the DC STARS app itself. Running Apache on Windows has been fine for years. Oracle itself is obviously not the problem, although it could be a bottleneck if improperly tuned. However, my guess is that the DC public schools doesn't have near the volume of data to require any Oracle tuning at all. I'd be very hesitant to point fingers at the web server that powers most of the Internet, and the database server that powers most of the financial industry (and most every other industry).
But this is the DC public schools, so certainly it must be someone else's fault. They'll never stop pointing fingers long enough to figure out the real issue.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
I've been running Apache, 1 & 2, on Windows NT Workstation & 2000, with and without PHP for years with no problems. I have found that using XAMPP is the easiest way to install it, but I have got it working the hard way too.
Don't you just love it when incompetent government employees create so many problems that administrators, who know even less (Unix hardware?), decide to tell them how to do their jobs. And then they expect us (taxpayers) to pay whatever the costs of their incompetence.
Anyone remember Corel Office Suite? Killer bees?
.NET are a cool and powerful solution. NOT the solution for everyone -- as stated, people should do their homework and start with the application (following the developer's recommendations doesn't hurt either), and then build the system and infrastructure to properly support it.
Brainchild of Michael Cowpland to try and glue together 'best of breed' applications. A dismal failure that took the company to the brink of extinction. (Their Linux foray was the second-last nail in the coffin.)
Trying to build a 'solution' by glueing together things that were never made to glue together usually results in the ugliest bastard child you've ever seen.
Microsoft-based solutions snap together like leggo blocks. Windows 2003, IIS, SQL Server,
Sounds like they bought some tires they liked, and then went around trying to find a car that fit them.
As usual, more offtopic bullcrap from this arstechnica loser StarKruzr, who is just a blowhard student with no professional experience in this field.
No wonder the -1 rating. He is below zero.
apt-get install apache apache-ssl mysql php4
Go get coffee, come back later...
I suppose I'd run them on a windows server if I needed windows-centric components, but why else would you want to?
I am a DCPS Highschool student. If you think this problem is funny, read on. The school i attend is too cheap to hire professionals to setup the network as well as to maintain it and to perform line replacement. Myself and two other students run the whole network, and maintain the computers located in the school. If a teacher has a computer issue, they come to us, not to a DCPS employee/contracter. Let me add to that fact that all three of us are volunteers and receive no benefit for donating our time. Im sure this is not a problem unique to our Highschool either. Heck, im suprised when DCPS can manage to get their STARS network online at all. This is the status of technology in our nations Urban public schools. Dont feel bad for us, do something about it! Thanks
Anonymous
DCPS HS Senior
Pray tell, what is UNIX hardware? (Given that it's an OS and runs on most everything.)
One would probably define "UNIX hardware" as a computing device that has been certified to run a UNIX® brand operating system.
Linux Is Not Unix just dresses like it