In the case of the RadeonFB, it's disappointing because it worked fine in 2.4, broke somewhere along the 2.5, and remains broken.
From my point of view, I think it's a serious enough bug that it should have stopped 2.6.0 from being released. But it seems like everybody just uses XFree, and doesn't care about the console.
For me it's an absolute showstopper, since one of the main reasons I use linux is for the characteristics of the console that are not quite compensated for in XTerms or RXVT's under cygwin.
I'd be satisfied if I could get these features tagged as "experimental" in the production kernel. Calling them "production" and "tested" is kind of insulting since I've been saying otherwise for a really long time.
"What would be the point of not identifying yourself, and under what kind of circumstances would you want to do so?"
You're the cop. You don't have a shred of evidence on me, but you want to accuse me of some crime. You want me to provide whatever evidence you need. There's a fundamental premise of US law that very explicitly protects me from having to do so.
If you want to accuse me of a crime, do so. If you suspect that I am a person whom you believe you want, it is YOUR job, NOT MINE, to identify me as that individual, period. Likewise, it is YOUR job to say where I was on Tuesday at 11:00 PM, NOT MINE.
There is the strongest basis for the rights of the people to be free from being compelled to give any information to the police, because any information at all can be used to incriminate them.
Either you suspect me of a crime, or you suspect I am someone in particular. If you think you have caught me committing a crime, it really doesn't matter WHO I AM, put the cuffs on me, read me my rights, beginning with "right to remain silent." If you think I'm so-and-so on your wanted list, then say so. Tell me who I am. Tell the magistrate who I am. My attorney will answer all questions, period.
The Supreme Court has just made a major coup against the Fifth Amendement.
In America, it was impossible to do that without a 2/3 vote of Congress and a ratification among the States. The new country that occupies the borders of the country formerly called the United States has no such limits on government.
It seems reasonable, framed in the context of the story, but in the broader context of erosion of the most basic rights that define the Constitutional Republic, it is absolutely inconceivable. It takes away one of the most important rights that the revolutionary government had considered to be worthy of armed rebellion and total sacrifice.
Today we have different priorities, and a much higher threshhold of what tyranny we will tolerate. (I don't think there's a limit, personally; collectively we will accept *anything* as long as the system avoids calling itself by certain forbidden names, and as long as the propaganda machine operates.)
"The UPSIDE of being a Linux zealot as opposed to a Windows or Mac zealot is that because the system is very open, any roadblocks you may encounter are likely soon to be fixed, or are fixable if you know a programmer who accepts payment in beer and pizza (which is all of them)."
Okay, so what's the price in Beer and Pizza to get framebuffer console support fixed? I currently have three machines that have had limited, or no, framebuffer console support since 2.4, even though they are all supposedly supported and tested in the current production kernels:
The Trident Cuyberblade XPAi1 (rev 82) in my Toshiba Laptop will NOT correctly enter a 1024x768 fbconsole mode on boot with tridentfb, the screen looks like the correct font and resolution, but the disply only uses 1/4 of the LCD panel. I've tried everything. I've reported it on LKML and on Slashdot every time a new kernel is released. It does not get fixed, nor does it get tagged as "experimental" in the production kernels. I can work around it with vesafb, but I would really prefer to have the tridentfb.
The Radeon 8500LE (R200 QL) on one of my desktop machines has similar problem to the trident in my laptop. This one worked *really well* in 2.4 with the radeonfb, but has not worked at all since kernel 2.5. Likewise, I've tried everything, and basically given up, holding out hope that it will be fixed in the NEXT 2.6, like I always do, only to have my hopes crushed. Again, I can work around it with vesafb, but why should I have to? RadeonFB is supposed to be fully tested and part of a production kernel! I have supported hardware on a production linux system, that doesn't work!
Now, the worst case, one that has actually driven me mad with my Shuttle!!! Ths NForce2 video on the Shuttle SN41G2 XPC doesn't work with the Riva Framebuffer support in 2.6, and I cannot work around it with vesafb because that doesn't work either. Showstopper.
Three completely different video cards, all supposed to work with high-res framebuffer consoles (I'm talking TEXT consoles here, not XFree), and none actually work. One doesn't even work with VesaFB.
This support is really important to me. Good text consoles are the killer feature that Linux has and the other options don't! So if they don't work, well, I'm stuck with X terminals which don't do for me what the native consoles do. So at the end of the day I'm stuck with 80x25 (I want 160x60, or 128x48).
I miss SVGATextMode, but the FBConsole turned out to be better --- while it lasted.
So, there's my bug report. What's the price in Beer and Pizza to get all that fixed by the 2.6.8 release?
Are there *any* PCI 802.11g cards that work with linux? I understand there is a 3Com product but it's expensive and apparently not readily available.
The wireless hardware selection situation really stinks. Sure there's a long list of compatable hardware, but so much of it consists of discontinued products, or products where another unit of the same make and model will be *totally* different, that the hardware compatability lists don't really tell the story as it is; which is to say, a blight.
It is currently impossible to make a purchase order for a wireless PC card or PCI card because of it. You cannot spec by model number, and unless you're really lucky, vendors don't know how to respond to requests by chipset.
I don't think there is a single 802.11g PCI card available in the "consumer commodity" price range that has a supported chipset, and I think the manufacturers know damned well that's the case, and I think they like it that way.
"Are there any USB 802.11 devices that simply work, without kernel recompiling or similar extra work?"
The older Linksys "USB-11" radios are prism2 and they have worked well for me. The newer ones are Atheros, and I suppose they could work, but I tried tweaking and got to the end of my patience, and bought something else.
"You can get excellent, servicable wireless 802.11b hardware from several years ago"
No you can't. Not in the sense that you can spec it on a purchase order, or go to your local retailer and pick it off the shelf. And not in the sense that you can effectively mail order it either.
Even if you know brand and model number, most cards have various chipsets. I know I covet my D-Link DWL-520 cards. These are PCI 802.11 cards. the current card under the same model number is Broadcom. The old ones are Prism2. Guess which ones are in the stores today?
Likewise, I have lots of Linksys products, including 3 PC Cards, one of which is Prism2 and the others are garbage. They have exactly the same packaging and model number, so how would I buy another one? I also have Linksys USB devices, some are Prism2, some are not. Again, how will I buy another one if brand and model number won't pick it?
>Something like a Cisco Aironet 352 is perfect
Expensive too, but I guess that can't be an argument.
"I did that not so long back with an AV-receiver."
Yes but, that's strictly hardware, and strictly in the A/V domain. Stores are superstitious about computer stuff. I would be surprised to get anything except a flat out "no, you may not, you can't have that in here sir, please leave the store."
There's a world of difference between government/military missions and a private one. If you don't see the difference, I doubt you will ever understand it.
Unfortunately, framebuffer support has been broken on the hardware where I need it the most, for a long, long time. Namely, the Radeon 8500LE, the Nforce2 onboard chip of the Shuttle XPC SN1G2, and the Trident Cyberblade/A1 on my Toshiba laptop.
Framebuffer consoles don't work on *any* of these boards. Fortunately, I guess, vesafb (not tridentfb) works on my Toshiba. But this brokenness has stopped me from upgrading from 2.4 to 2.6. I've decided that it isn't ever going to be fixed, and that 2.4 is the end of the line for the linux kernel for my application, which happens to be the terminal environment in the console framebuffer.
I have indeed. I still don't think it is reasonable to compare Dutch politics with American, and claim that because the Dutch have fewer problems, so should Americans.
There are quite a few huge differences between The Netherlands and the United States.
First, you're comparing a single, relatively small country, to a large republic of (decreasingly) independent states. (It seems to me that many Europeans do not understand just how independent the states really are, particularly on things like national elections).
Second, there does not appear to be the level of corruption in the Dutch government. Apparently you do not have a large banking corporation taking control of the election process on behalf of the incumbent political party. If you did, you would probably be talking revolution already, but that's a forbidden word in the US.
You are amazed that the problems in the US are not happening in The Netherlands, but from where I sit, (one of the Western states), I have always had the idea that The Netherlands are something of a liberal paradise, first on the list of places where we dream of emigrating to. It seems unreasonable to use The Netherlands as an example of why you're suprised that the US has social or political problems.
"People say I may be wasting my vote but voting my ideals is not a wasted vote to me."
Do they really? Why do you even make it their business? Where I'm coming from: If you're out there in political discussions and you put yourself in a position where people can be openly hostile to you about your choices, they are in a position to influence others. Someone else who might have also considered an independent vote will be manipulated by peer pressure, and you're the catalyst for it.
"The flaws are intentional and exist so that the GOP can steal this election."
I have a problem. If the Republicans lose (due to the well known criminal incompetence of the chief executive, for instance), then the argument over voting machines, stolen elections, etc., will forever be regarded as a crackpot theory!
What if the elections are rigged, but the riggers still lose? Will we end up with rigged machines forever?
What keeps me off windows? The fact that I cannot have the equivalent of, for example, 160x60 framebuffer virtual consoles! Sure, I can run rxvt or any number of term emulators, but that's not the same thing. Sure I can get 80 column dos modes. But can I get 160 column modes? If I could, I would probably run windows + cygwin more than I do.
There's something fundamental about the linux console, it's simply the most efficient console available, and I can't live without it -- not even on Linux (where framebuffer console sometimes doesn't work, which is hasn't for some of my cards since 2.6)
Anyway, Windows doesn't have anything to compare with VC's at all. And it doesn't have anything like the highly efficient framebuffer consoles, or like SVGATextMode (which I miss terribly).
>But the flipside is, once the citizens of this >nation get adjusted to that mindset, and begin to >accept those types of intrusions of their civil >liberties, it will be too late to go back.
Once they presume you are a revolutionary and accuse of you being one and threaten to treat you accordingly, you might as well become one. You don't have anything to lose at that point. What's stopping this country from revolution is that the people still have much to lose. They are largely very comfortable, hopeful, and generally satisfied with the status quo, at least in the big picture.
"no non-major party can possibly win an election ever."
Of course not -- a party that gets enough support, by definition, becomes "major."
I don't know how your assumption jibes with the Libertarians who've been elected to various state and local offices though.
There was a time that your argument was used to dismiss the Republican party -- the Whigs and the Democrats were the order of the day, and the upstart Republicans (ironically with their policies of appeasement and seeking peaceful resolutions to the questions of 1850!) were considered by many to be a complete joke.
"Everybody is so afraid to acknowlege what went on in Russia."
To be fair to them, few had any real opportunity to learn about Russia. Information was actively suppressed in the US. You really had to be motivated to find anything at all, past the surface.
Even in the Soviet Union, people didn't know their own history. They are just now discovering some of it.
So everybody read 1984. How many read "We" by Zamyatin? How many read "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich?" How many Americans *really* understand what a complete bastard Stalin was? Or have any idea how many people just plain died under the Soviet plan? Most of them cannot even imagine farmers literally starving to death. (Again, to be fair to them, most Americans really don't know what it is that farmers *do*).
"Have you heard the news? Someone killed the Tsar!"
"Same idea. Petri dishes and bacteria samples -- even dangerous ones -- are not illegal to own."
That's a good thing. A certain med student living in my house has lots and lots of tools of her trade. There's really nothing about working for the University that gives her special entitlements that any other private citizen isn't afforded. I could spend my spare time growing bacteria cultures and/or making competent cells too, if that was my thing.
If it's illegal for me to do it, it's illegal for researchers to do it too. They aren't special just because they wear a lab coat to work!
Slashdot Mirror
"Should research that costs millions of dollars to do be given away for free?"
If it costs millions in TAXPAYER MONEY it should be given back to the PEOPLE.
Thanks for trying, and enjoy your crust.
I've been down all those roads, and much more.
In the case of the RadeonFB, it's disappointing because it worked fine in 2.4, broke somewhere along the 2.5, and remains broken.
From my point of view, I think it's a serious enough bug that it should have stopped 2.6.0 from being released. But it seems like everybody just uses XFree, and doesn't care about the console.
For me it's an absolute showstopper, since one of the main reasons I use linux is for the characteristics of the console that are not quite compensated for in XTerms or RXVT's under cygwin.
I'd be satisfied if I could get these features tagged as "experimental" in the production kernel. Calling them "production" and "tested" is kind of insulting since I've been saying otherwise for a really long time.
"What would be the point of not identifying yourself, and under what kind of circumstances would you want to do so?"
You're the cop. You don't have a shred of evidence on me, but you want to accuse me of some crime. You want me to provide whatever evidence you need. There's a fundamental premise of US law that very explicitly protects me from having to do so.
If you want to accuse me of a crime, do so. If you suspect that I am a person whom you believe you want, it is YOUR job, NOT MINE, to identify me as that individual, period. Likewise, it is YOUR job to say where I was on Tuesday at 11:00 PM, NOT MINE.
There is the strongest basis for the rights of the people to be free from being compelled to give any information to the police, because any information at all can be used to incriminate them.
Either you suspect me of a crime, or you suspect I am someone in particular. If you think you have caught me committing a crime, it really doesn't matter WHO I AM, put the cuffs on me, read me my rights, beginning with "right to remain silent." If you think I'm so-and-so on your wanted list, then say so. Tell me who I am. Tell the magistrate who I am. My attorney will answer all questions, period.
The Supreme Court has just made a major coup against the Fifth Amendement.
In America, it was impossible to do that without a 2/3 vote of Congress and a ratification among the States. The new country that occupies the borders of the country formerly called the United States has no such limits on government.
It seems reasonable, framed in the context of the story, but in the broader context of erosion of the most basic rights that define the Constitutional Republic, it is absolutely inconceivable. It takes away one of the most important rights that the revolutionary government had considered to be worthy of armed rebellion and total sacrifice.
Today we have different priorities, and a much higher threshhold of what tyranny we will tolerate. (I don't think there's a limit, personally; collectively we will accept *anything* as long as the system avoids calling itself by certain forbidden names, and as long as the propaganda machine operates.)
"The UPSIDE of being a Linux zealot as opposed to a Windows or Mac zealot is that because the system is very open, any roadblocks you may encounter are likely soon to be fixed, or are fixable if you know a programmer who accepts payment in beer and pizza (which is all of them)."
Okay, so what's the price in Beer and Pizza to get framebuffer console support fixed? I currently have three machines that have had limited, or no, framebuffer console support since 2.4, even though they are all supposedly supported and tested in the current production kernels:
The Trident Cuyberblade XPAi1 (rev 82) in my Toshiba Laptop will NOT correctly enter a 1024x768 fbconsole mode on boot with tridentfb, the screen looks like the correct font and resolution, but the disply only uses 1/4 of the LCD panel. I've tried everything. I've reported it on LKML and on Slashdot every time a new kernel is released. It does not get fixed, nor does it get tagged as "experimental" in the production kernels. I can work around it with vesafb, but I would really prefer to have the tridentfb.
The Radeon 8500LE (R200 QL) on one of my desktop machines has similar problem to the trident in my laptop. This one worked *really well* in 2.4 with the radeonfb, but has not worked at all since kernel 2.5. Likewise, I've tried everything, and basically given up, holding out hope that it will be fixed in the NEXT 2.6, like I always do, only to have my hopes crushed. Again, I can work around it with vesafb, but why should I have to? RadeonFB is supposed to be fully tested and part of a production kernel! I have supported hardware on a production linux system, that doesn't work!
Now, the worst case, one that has actually driven me mad with my Shuttle!!! Ths NForce2 video on the Shuttle SN41G2 XPC doesn't work with the Riva Framebuffer support in 2.6, and I cannot work around it with vesafb because that doesn't work either. Showstopper.
Three completely different video cards, all supposed to work with high-res framebuffer consoles (I'm talking TEXT consoles here, not XFree), and none actually work. One doesn't even work with VesaFB.
This support is really important to me. Good text consoles are the killer feature that Linux has and the other options don't! So if they don't work, well, I'm stuck with X terminals which don't do for me what the native consoles do. So at the end of the day I'm stuck with 80x25 (I want 160x60, or 128x48).
I miss SVGATextMode, but the FBConsole turned out to be better --- while it lasted.
So, there's my bug report. What's the price in Beer and Pizza to get all that fixed by the 2.6.8 release?
Are there *any* PCI 802.11g cards that work with linux? I understand there is a 3Com product but it's expensive and apparently not readily available.
The wireless hardware selection situation really stinks. Sure there's a long list of compatable hardware, but so much of it consists of discontinued products, or products where another unit of the same make and model will be *totally* different, that the hardware compatability lists don't really tell the story as it is; which is to say, a blight.
It is currently impossible to make a purchase order for a wireless PC card or PCI card because of it. You cannot spec by model number, and unless you're really lucky, vendors don't know how to respond to requests by chipset.
I don't think there is a single 802.11g PCI card available in the "consumer commodity" price range that has a supported chipset, and I think the manufacturers know damned well that's the case, and I think they like it that way.
"Are there any USB 802.11 devices that simply work, without kernel recompiling or similar extra work?"
The older Linksys "USB-11" radios are prism2 and they have worked well for me. The newer ones are
Atheros, and I suppose they could work, but I tried tweaking and got to the end of my patience, and bought something else.
"You can get excellent, servicable wireless 802.11b hardware from several years ago"
No you can't. Not in the sense that you can spec it on a purchase order, or go to your local retailer and pick it off the shelf. And not in the sense that you can effectively mail order it either.
Even if you know brand and model number, most cards have various chipsets. I know I covet my D-Link DWL-520 cards. These are PCI 802.11 cards. the current card under the same model number is Broadcom. The old ones are Prism2. Guess which ones are in the stores today?
Likewise, I have lots of Linksys products, including 3 PC Cards, one of which is Prism2 and the others are garbage. They have exactly the same packaging and model number, so how would I buy another one? I also have Linksys USB devices, some are Prism2, some are not. Again, how will I buy another one if brand and model number won't pick it?
>Something like a Cisco Aironet 352 is perfect
Expensive too, but I guess that can't be an argument.
"I did that not so long back with an AV-receiver."
Yes but, that's strictly hardware, and strictly in the A/V domain. Stores are superstitious about computer stuff. I would be surprised to get anything except a flat out "no, you may not, you can't have that in here sir, please leave the store."
There's a world of difference between government/military missions and a private one.
If you don't see the difference, I doubt you will ever understand it.
"However, I doubt they are paying over $1 million for technicians..."
Negotiate tax exemption. And a Billion dollar life insurance policy. If they say "next", count your blessings.
I'd rather be homeless in San Francisco than making $100,000 in Afghanistan. And forget it if that $100,000 is taxed at the usual rate (or at all).
Unfortunately, framebuffer support has been broken on the hardware where I need it the most, for a long, long time. Namely, the Radeon 8500LE, the Nforce2 onboard chip of the Shuttle XPC SN1G2, and the Trident Cyberblade/A1 on my Toshiba laptop.
Framebuffer consoles don't work on *any* of these boards. Fortunately, I guess, vesafb (not tridentfb) works on my Toshiba. But this brokenness has stopped me from upgrading from 2.4 to 2.6. I've decided that it isn't ever going to be fixed, and that 2.4 is the end of the line for the linux kernel for my application, which happens to be the terminal environment in the console framebuffer.
People are actually pining for the bad old days of the regional bbs, when we clung desperately to even the most tenuous connection to other nets?
> Never heard of Pim Fortuyn, have you?
I have indeed. I still don't think it is reasonable to compare Dutch politics with American, and claim that because the Dutch have fewer problems, so should Americans.
>No one has ever complained about them.
There are quite a few huge differences between The Netherlands and the United States.
First, you're comparing a single, relatively small country, to a large republic of (decreasingly) independent states. (It seems to me that many Europeans do not understand just how independent the states really are, particularly on things like national elections).
Second, there does not appear to be the level of corruption in the Dutch government. Apparently you do not have a large banking corporation taking control of the election process on behalf of the incumbent political party. If you did, you would probably be talking revolution already, but that's a forbidden word in the US.
You are amazed that the problems in the US are not happening in The Netherlands, but from where I sit, (one of the Western states), I have always had the idea that The Netherlands are something of a liberal paradise, first on the list of places where we dream of emigrating to. It seems unreasonable to use The Netherlands as an example of why you're suprised that the US has social or political problems.
"People say I may be wasting my vote but voting my ideals is not a wasted vote to me."
Do they really? Why do you even make it their business? Where I'm coming from: If you're out there in political discussions and you put yourself in a position where people can be openly hostile to you about your choices, they are in a position to influence others. Someone else who might have also considered an independent vote will be manipulated by peer pressure, and you're the catalyst for it.
"The flaws are intentional and exist so that the GOP can steal this election."
I have a problem. If the Republicans lose (due to the well known criminal incompetence of the chief executive, for instance), then the argument over voting machines, stolen elections, etc., will forever be regarded as a crackpot theory!
What if the elections are rigged, but the riggers still lose? Will we end up with rigged machines forever?
"working fine since 1998"
Because you are satisfied with the government elected by them, you presume they are functioning properly? But how do you *know*?
What keeps me off windows? The fact that I cannot have the equivalent of, for example, 160x60 framebuffer virtual consoles! Sure, I can run rxvt or any number of term emulators, but that's not the same thing. Sure I can get 80 column dos modes. But can I get 160 column modes? If I could, I would probably run windows + cygwin more than I do.
There's something fundamental about the linux console, it's simply the most efficient console available, and I can't live without it -- not even on Linux (where framebuffer console sometimes doesn't work, which is hasn't for some of my cards since 2.6)
Anyway, Windows doesn't have anything to compare with VC's at all. And it doesn't have anything like the highly efficient framebuffer consoles, or like SVGATextMode (which I miss terribly).
That's what keeps me off windows.
>But the flipside is, once the citizens of this
>nation get adjusted to that mindset, and begin to
>accept those types of intrusions of their civil
>liberties, it will be too late to go back.
Once they presume you are a revolutionary and accuse of you being one and threaten to treat you accordingly, you might as well become one. You don't have anything to lose at that point. What's stopping this country from revolution is that the people still have much to lose. They are largely very comfortable, hopeful, and generally satisfied with the status quo, at least in the big picture.
"no non-major party can possibly win an election ever."
Of course not -- a party that gets enough support, by definition, becomes "major."
I don't know how your assumption jibes with the Libertarians who've been elected to various state and local offices though.
There was a time that your argument was used to dismiss the Republican party -- the Whigs and the Democrats were the order of the day, and the upstart Republicans (ironically with their policies of appeasement and seeking peaceful resolutions to the questions of 1850!) were considered by many to be a complete joke.
"Everybody is so afraid to acknowlege what went on in Russia."
To be fair to them, few had any real opportunity to learn about Russia. Information was actively suppressed in the US. You really had to be motivated to find anything at all, past the surface.
Even in the Soviet Union, people didn't know their own history. They are just now discovering some of it.
So everybody read 1984. How many read "We" by Zamyatin? How many read "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich?" How many Americans *really* understand what a complete bastard Stalin was? Or have any idea how many people just plain died under the Soviet plan? Most of them cannot even imagine farmers literally starving to death. (Again, to be fair to them, most Americans really don't know what it is that farmers *do*).
"Have you heard the news? Someone killed the Tsar!"
"Same idea. Petri dishes and bacteria samples -- even dangerous ones -- are not illegal to own."
That's a good thing. A certain med student living in my house has lots and lots of tools of her trade. There's really nothing about working for the University that gives her special entitlements that any other private citizen isn't afforded. I could spend my spare time growing bacteria cultures and/or making competent cells too, if that was my thing.
If it's illegal for me to do it, it's illegal for researchers to do it too. They aren't special just because they wear a lab coat to work!
"My impression was that the judge might be in violation of the act if it refused to issue the warrant."
Which puts the judges in a unique position to protest the law, if they were of a mind to.
When the government locks up academics, poeple laugh about it.
When they start locking up their own *judges*, people might start to realize something is wrong.
>Nobody died, when Clinton lied.
What about that guy they found on the park bench, in his car, on the park bench?
"If it comes to a question of family vs. job, take the family."
What's more pathetic, a homeless family or a workaholic dad?