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Advice On A New-School Old-School BBS
An anonymous reader asks I am thinking about setting up a local "community" network over WiFi minus internet connection. In other words, I would like to run a small server isolated from the web as an experiment in small scale networks (e.g., serving a café-heavy one-block radius.)
I have plenty of clever ideas -- discussion/gripe boards, weird artistic projects -- anything to bring back the old-school BBS memories where online users were drawn from a single geographic location. But everything I've learned so far is how to act as a small node on someone else's network. How can I make my own -- and make it wireless?
Google doesn't pull much up that I can find: it is mostly targeted towards those building a (free or profit) Internet access point." (Read on for more.)
" Does anybody have sources of information for how to learn about setting up the network I have in mind? Basic tutorials and those covering more advanced issues such as security would be very helpful. Finally, is there anyone out there with real world experience? Beyond imparting technical help, do you have suggestions for implementation? What worked, and what didn't? Did the lack of internet access make the project unpopular? (And if you did provide internet access as a teaser, how did you handle liability and financial issues?)"
(This reminds me of the Community Memory Project; can anyone point to some modern equivalents?)
The tech side to this is relatively simple. What you're going to want to do is to basically create your own IP-based network that isn't the Internet... that means your WiFi should have a DHCP server that hands out 10.x.x.x (unroutable) addresses to anybody who wants to get one to get them on board...
.com, .net, .org and for that matter any "real" web request to a "Hello World!" webserver that explains that your WiFi link isn't offering a connection to the Internet, instead it's a one-of-a-kind location that's offering...
Once there, your DNS universe is gonna be a bit funny. You should map all
From there, you just assign your own server names to whatever have to offer, and serve it using standard Internet technologies for web content.
I think your problem is that you're not searching on the right term on Google. What you want to do is called an "intranet"... and it's really nothing more than setting up Internet-designed IP-based stuff and forgetting to add the link to the outside world.
Now, how you're gonna promote such a thing... well, that's up to you.
I don't quite think it will fly.
I has bbs at the time, when internet was quite expensive back home, and it was doing ok mainly because lack of option.
Today, www is hugee, you don't have to restrict to a single area, you aren't limited to, with things like slashdot, disney, news, streaming and p2p, you have highly specialized and good services for free *discreet cough* .
On the other hand, if it's strictly intranet, restricting outside access AT ALL, it might turn out as an interesting experiment. Do tell us how it will grow (if it grows at all).
I've thought of this myself for my own city. I'm not ready to take on such a project, but in the event that i change my mind, these would be the first issues i would adress:
1) who is paying for equiptment?
2) where is the equiptment going to be located?
3) how many people are acutally interested (is it going to be a wasted effort)?
4) servers to host content
5) Mesures to prevent people from causing problems (dhcp servers, hackers, viri and such)
6) will DNS be used?
7) Scale of network vs ammount of information being communicated
#7 is most important because if you have alot of people using this system as though it were a LAN, general broadcasts will be flooding your entire network. you will need *real routers* to segment parts of the network.
*real routers* means they're not intended for home use (ie: Linksys, d-link, etc...)
#4,5,6 & 7 all assume this network is large - predict this! its less work later if this really takes off for ya.
oh, and Seattle wireless has a network like this so you'll want to take a peak there to see how they have things set up.
You are confusing me with someone who cares.
Second thoughts, it will be quite interesting to see how the safe/spamfree discussion groups will evolve, what will be on them, and what will kids do in a porn/spam/media free environment. Will they considering it boring/interesting/personal/safe?
Is there a chance of having some kind of summary of it?
You're gonna want to redirect all web requests to your BBS web page. The thing that people naturally do when they connect to a hot spot is to try to surf. If they get redirected, they'll see what your hot spot is for. You might also support various file sharing protocols with one visible machine. On that machine have one visible file that says README with instructions on how to surf to the BBS.
People are actually pining for the bad old days of the regional bbs, when we clung desperately to even the most tenuous connection to other nets?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I think that's the point of this project. To create an interesting oracle of information that is only available within the range of a WiFi signal... no connection to the outside world in or out available.
Be interesting to see if he can pull it off and get enough content and user interactivity to make it work...
Whatever software you use, make sure it supports the old online games like tradewars, pimpwars, global war, etc! I miss those old games and waiting to have to play my turn. I know there are alternatives on some telnet BBSs, but it's just not the same as waiting to dial in on Terminate or PCPlus and getting that busy signal. If I could be sitting at the local coffee shop, I would happily log in to whatever was available and check recent message boards and games, even though it'll never be the same as it was 15 years ago.
I'm not quite sure how the limited-by-proximity access to a network is going to make it "safe" in terms of being spam/scam/scum feee. It'll limit the spammers/scammers/scummers to being those from the local area, but that still doesn't make it a kid-safe zone.
Seriously, why the hell would anyone want to do this? I come from the "old days," and I don't want to go back.
Why not put the internet to use? Do it in one place, then take it to other cities or towns. Why isolate yourself when it is now easier to be connected? You can still keep the information geographically seperate.
I am seeing some problems with this set up already. First and foremost, who will have the administraion privileges? Who says what can and cannot be put on this "bbs"? Who will have the physical equipment and/or the storage for this set up? Will there be censorship of things? Will games be allowed over the network? Just some things that flashed through my mind.
I found the "Any" key.
And these days, the magic distance is perhaps a quarter mile.
And you call that progress? ;)
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
Just be patient... GPS is on the way, and eventually it will tie into our communications mediae.
It's just a matter of time until our wristwatch or cell phone tells your PC or "interface station" (whatever it may be) what your locale is. As such, localized communities much like the one you've described will begin to emerge en-masse.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
If you want 80s old school, you could do something akin to the WELL. I had something similar in my old building complex (one computer on my floor where people would just post crap for everyone else to see) but it turned into a sort of an internal craigslist. That's not a bad thing, though, and the landlord bought it from me for one month's rent. In the new building I wired up a half-dozen neighbors on my network, installed ICQ, and showed them how to post to a tiny news server I had setup. They're more keen on surfing the web, though, so I just limit their bandwidth to 1 mbps. As for a BBS, well, that was a little before my time, but not so much before that I don't remember feeling ripped off after waiting an hour to download what I thought would be hot pr0n. Turned out to be a girl in a bikini. In a bikini fercrissakes!
I also reply below your current threshold.
first suggestion - better make sure that anybody in the universe is interested in this project before you spend a lot of money and time on it. there's very little reason at all for anybody to participate in something like this when they can join the community of the internet at large, and still get the local flavor from local websites if they like.
d =9304955
having said that, you could probably accomplish just about everything you need with existing wireless access points with some hacked-up firmware. wi-fi box is offering free replacement firmware for the linksys WRT54G series access points that offers a captive portal and some advanced routing features including WDS. what this means is that you can display a splash page to anybody who types in an arbitrary URL (say, www.slashdot.org) and inform them that they only have access to a certain few pages (links provided of course.) with WDS you can chain multiple access point together wirelessly, although you may be best served splitting some areas into subnets and cabling them together with tradional CAT5.
there are other options for the WRT54G firmware - www.sveasoft.com is one of the most popular. just be careful with this one, because the author thinks that reselling GPL'd software for $20 is a great idea, and if you have the gall to say otherwise here on slashdot he'll ban your ass from his forums and ftp servers in a heartbeat. you can distribute his software as allowed by the GPL, but if he catches you doing it or questioning his policies he'll make sure you can't access the software anymore. here's my original post on sveasoft that lead to the banning in question: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=109547&ci
the guy is a real pecker and probably doesn't deserve your $20 anyway.
This is a great idea, but I think you're limiting yourself artificially. You will probably have a hard time attracting wireless users to connect only to local content.
The BBSes that were really good were the ones that had decent content. If you lived in an area that had a lot of BBSes, the duller ones fell by the wayside pretty quickly. If anything kept them alive, it was the fact that you didn't get a busy signal when you tried to dial them.
Why not put something online that has very local content and let a broader cross-section participate? If the content is good, and you can get the word out, they will come.
-
Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
I mean seriously - the only people using them anymore are for nostalgia.
I remember back in the day, I had four modem lines in my parents' basement churning over my 10base2 Lantastic setup with a variety of 286 and 386 boxes. I could get 80-120 calls a day - everything from file leechers to door game players to people who liked to write perverted endless stories.
It all ended about 1995 or so - some eked out for a few more years, but the thrust of the community turned to the Internet long before that.
I don't see the point. Set up a web board or something, that's about as close as you can get. If you feel completely compelled, you might want to investigate Citadel. I note some halfway decent Citadel ports to a telnet based system.
Of course it's just like old Citadel, ie, crappy like wwiv, but most of the good BBS systems got bought by commercial vendors and then summarily dropped into the bit bucket when it didn't turn out to be profitable in the late 90's - pretty much what happened to Wildcat, Searchlight, Pc-board, proboard, etc etc etc.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Try Synchronet - telnetable BBS, chat, irc, message and file bases and you can run old BBS doors! Plus, there's a Linux version.
http://www.synchro.net/
I used to run a BBS too. I assume you must be outside North America, since I heard in Europe (and in a lot of other places) you have to actually pay for every minute online (long distance or not). In Canada and USA, as long as it's a local call, you don't have to pay per minute and only pay the basic charges. That meant people could call anywhere and stay online as long as they wanted as long as it was regional. I guess we were lucky (and are still!). ;)
Ahhh.... those good old times.
I still play BRE and Trade Wars regularly from http://www.gargoyleslanding.com/ though.
Of course if you wanted to be more old-school you could set up a public-access *NIX login, or even run an old-school BBS type deal via telnet. It would still be a good idea to route people to a website explaining how to get in. For that check out here and here, and here
If you're interested in running a truly oldschool BBS, check out Synchronet. Free, good telnet BBS server.
And if you don't run LORD, you should be shot.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
&$&#*&*@(#&@#*()&!#(*@!#&@#()@ !#
NO CARRIER
here's some ideas and software to make it work.
First, for wireless connection management you can use the nocat wireless portal system (requires linux). That will allow you to advertise a wireless AP and have the users automatically redirected to your community site.
For the actual site, I recommend phpnuke,postnuke or any of the content management software. They have lots of features hat will allow old style bbs functions like forums, gallery, pictures, files, etc. There are also modules that will do more.
With nocat you have the option of adding an internet connection in the future. I suggest talking to a local cafe shop, they may already have an internet connection and may be interested in a project that attracts the surrounding community.
Did you even bother with Google?
Amateur (ham) packet radio networks have been doing exactly this since the early 1980s. They are designed to be independant of the Internet.
Check out TAPR for more information on that.
Also, check out the Guerrilla Net project by former L0pht members, which uses more modern hardware.
You need to be careful if you're not providing outside access. First, you will still need to protect users against infections (just for liability, even though you didn't infect them and they should've protected themselves). It's as likely an infected Windows node will come inside your LAN as one would have found your network had it been on the Internet. And a malicious user could easily enter your network and begin attacking hosts.
Preferably (if possible, this is theory), assign 10.n.x.2 addresses, with your router responding to 10.n.anything.1. Let n be constant for your network, but x be the number assigned to each user. Give a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0. Thus you cannot reach another node without asking the router, who will of course deny; if you're blocking outside access, it should refuse to serve anything to 10.n.x.2 but 10.n.x.1. (If the request is on port 80, of course, explain the lack of outside access.)
Second, when outside Internet access through wireless covers your area, you either need to (possibly negotiate with the provider to) provide access yourself, talk to the provider about making yourself just a node on his nettwork, or provide clear instructions on how to switch from your BBS to the other provider. (It should be just a matter of changing the channel.)
You HAVE been on the Internet haven't you? If you think this is better than local chat and message systems you're nuts!
I've thought of a setup kinda like this in the context of a college campus. As the school starts to take more control of their network, I've thought about a system which would use some kind of ad-hoc intranet (although I don't know much about ad-hoc networks) which wouldn't rely at all on the school's infrastructure. Even for simple activities like chat, I think it'd be cool (and harder to identify who's who.) Just an idea that came to me after spending some time on FreeNet at school...
But while it is not strictly connected to the internet, there is nothing stopping an individual connecting a rooftop access point to a router and then to a home DSL connection. You then create a VPN to the internet via community mesh. This allows you to log on to your own home DSL connection from any location that can access the wifi mesh.
In Australia there is a country-wide IP assignment mechanism to eventually get continent-wide community wifi.
Trade Wars, Land of Devastation, L.O.R.D... those were the days. Offering people something they can jump into with no prior social contacts--and a reason to keep coming back every day--I think, would still be a way to bring people in.
Even though modem use is no longer an issue, a time limit every day keeps people coming back day after day.
then I'll be sure to pop by and connect.
If you have $$ to spend on this, Worldgroup (aka The Major BBS) is still sold and supported by Galacticomm, Inc. (now owned by netVillage.com). Its more or less a one stop shop, including things like:
Local & Internet E-mail
Chat Rooms with shared White Boards
Shared File Libraries
Threaded Discussion Forums
Customizable Surveys
IRC Client
FTP, Telnet, Finger, POP3, SMTP, NNTP
WorldLink
Built-in Web Server
Huge library of add on software
If you don't have money to spend, try Synchronet. Features are simmilar, though not nearly as mature:
Local & Internet E-mail
Chat Rooms with shared White Boards
Shared File Libraries
Threaded Discussion Forums
Built in support for Fido, RIME and QWK!
IRC Client
FTP, Telnet, Finger, POP3, SMTP, NNTP
Built-in Web Server in development
Supports door games
Open Source!!!
Good luck!
"Google doesn't pull much up that I can find: it is mostly targeted towards those building a (free or profit) Internet access point."
Follow those instructions and then disconnect from the Internet.
Paul Beardsell
Here's an idea -- set your system up as you normally would for acccessing the Internet, but simply setup your site such that posting and other interactive services are only accessable from within the local subnet.
That is, if you have a (for example) /. like website, limit posting only to those people with IPs in your local subnet (ie: 10.x.x.x). People in the outside world will be able to read the posts, but you need to be inside the wireless range in order to be able to post.
The big benifit of doing this is that frequent users will be able to keep up with discussions and such from home -- but if they want to contribute, they'll need to be within wireless range.
Yaz.
This software provides an "Active Portal" which basically means any web traffic is redirected from wherever it was supposed to go to some specified machine.
Its not a difficult thing to do manually either with iptables. (from memory its something like: iptables -T nat -I prerouting -P tcp -dport 80 -d ! localnet -j DNAT --dest localbox). Just make sure you have a DNS server running that sends all requests back to your IP or else their browser will give them an error.
From there, you just set up and run apache on 'localbox' and you're off!
Why don't you forget all the technology and just do a Java based chat room that looks like a BBS. You can host it on a server and people access it via a wireless internet connection. Just give out login and passwords to only local people. Other than not dialing in with a modem you'd never be able to tell the difference. The only thing that makes your network unique is that it is geographically constrained. If you can't manage to screen users based on geography find another way, such as having them pick up a login written on a piece of paper at a central place.
Granted, the whole idea seems oddly backwards. If you want a bigger local community of tech users why not just start a club, or any number of other ways to meet a certain type of people. It doesn't really seem to be about the BBS.
Shouldn't be difficult to set up a local network, DHCP giving out non-routable addresses with gateway which points to your machine. Use iptables-based prerouting (or whatever your favorite firewall flavor is) to reroute all internet requests to your own server. You could run a second apache vhost on a different port, then configure the 404 error page to be the same as the index page. Set this to a general explanation of what this ssid is and what it can be used for, as well as a link to the real website. I suggest some kind of real-time java chat, in addition to the usual message boards. Would be cool to see who is in the area, introduce yourself, a way to break the ice before meeting. You could do all this with a single low-end box on the cheap. If you wanted to offer net access at the same time, configure the system as a proxy server (squid?) and have instructions for the common browsers on the intro page mentioned above. While users have to reconfigure slightly to use your site, they'll still have access and can check POP mail, etc. Otherwise they'll just favor any other access points in the area over yours.
maybe, maybe not
Ten years ago I ran a BBS with a friend, and it was fairly successful. A lot of it had to do with the fact that we had a lot of content that wasn't around elsewhere. One problem I forsee is soembody mirroring in real time to the web, then you won't have that unique content anymore. I mean you'll still have it, but it won't be unique.
So first off, you have to assume that anything you have will leak off to the larger network. That doesn't mean that all is lost, you just have to make sure that your content is compelling enough to grab people and make them connect up, post, and participate.
I would suggest a MUD as a possible hook to grab people. They're fun, they're community based by nature, and they're addictive. Or something like TradeWars 2002, etc... Back in the BBS days people would log in all the time to play the games, and then once they were on they'd also post messages, exchange files, and communicate.
I would also suggest having informal get-togethers every once in a while. In Ithaca, NY we used to have "geekfests" every month where you could meet and greet people from the BBS community, people would bring their computers and game or show off their latest programming projects, etc... That really anchored the community aspect. Lately Fark has been doing something similar, having parties for FARK users in various cities, and then the photos and some highlights get posted back to the main site. While I don't participate extensively in FARK, it seems like that is building some sense of real community there.
In essence, if you have enough content to hook people, and you facilitate the initial socialization period, you can build a community that will endure.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Just set up a proxy server that routes all traffic to the BBS website.
meh
It seems like a flashed Linksys access point could be turned into a (limited memory, but them's the breaks) BBS system ... probably would far exceed the original Community Memory Project's, pardon me, "memory." Now, a smart thing for some access point maker to add is a flash reader, or a USB port for a thumbdrive. (And probably, hopefully, someone will point to a perfect Soekris board ... however, those aren't available for $60 ... )
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Without a doubt, nothing brings people together like a Citadel system. Since it's focused on people and not file leeching, you get a stronger sense of community.
What's more, modern Citadel systems give you telnet and web-based access, so the old-skool BBS'ers can have their 80x24 fun while the newbies can partake of the community from the comfort of their favorite browser. The e-mail system is built-in, sporting SMTP/POP/IMAP, and you get an instant messenger and a chat system completely integrated. It's a totally self-contained package that gives you the community-oriented site you're looking for.
If you want to see one in action, just click on the BBS link in my signature. I've been doing this for 16 years and loving it. BBS's are not dead, by any means.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I did this once. Set up a wireless access point, with no WEP, and generate lots of fake traffic on it, but don't connect the access point to the internet!. Attackers go nuts trying to figure out how you're blocking them from surfing the web or checking their email. Is it MAC filtering? VPN? Something strange they haven't seen before?
Lots of fun!
Basically, what they are doing is getting coffee shops to pay a small fee to host the access points (running a custom Linux configuration), networking those, and offering both the internet connection on the coffee house's dime and building out their own BBS-like intranet service.
Maybe the idea would be harder to get off the ground in other parts of the world, but if you can swing it, I think internet access is a big draw for people who otherwise may not bother.
bring back tradewars... please please please please please please
Imagine a college-wide wireless network, not accesible from the outside - and thus not browseable form the outside for anything being shared.
Allow email only to pass in and out, and you have yourself a killer community network that doesn't eat up all external bandwidth. Set up a few webcams and otehr cool things and people will happily switch to "the other internet" often.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
... check out boston's south station wifi bubble - it has exactly what the poster is asking. just a wifi network with unroutable addresses and a discussion board talking about how much ennui fills the place and how cute that chick is over there. entertaining while you wait for your train :)
a great way to tie up all the free parking on your block.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
Several posters have made glib comments about this idea being retro and unworthy.
Let me tell you why I see this sort of grass-roots things as the wave of the future.
First and formost, the primary feature of this system is that it has no recurring cost [well, assuming you are using solar]. Free is good.
Next, there is no controlling authority with rules, regulations and contracts. You know that your rights are severely limited in the contract you signed with your internet provider right? Freedom is good.
These intranet hotspots will be by definition local. They always talk about web communities, but they arent really. A bunch of anonymous jerks out trolling each other. This idea allows for locals to get together and be social. Community is good.
This sort of setup has no agenda. No chinese shyster selling penis pills, no corporation telling you what to think.
No agenda is good.
The most interesting thing is the possibilities that arise from synergy with other hotspots and the internet itself. If the number of local hotspots becomes large, and they become ubiquitous, there will be bridges formed between them..again all free, expanding the social network in interesting ways. New cultures will arise from these interactions without the debilitating noise of too many voices.
Culture is good.
I envision in the future rather than wi-fi, we will see wi-max versions of this idea. The neat thing about this is that you will be able to bridge to internet via your home isp when you wish to, and still use of the local hotspot would be free.
1) a potential for becoming too large. I can't afford a server farm if popularity hits hard, can you? That is completely ignoring the massive additional administrative overhead and invariable loss of focus encountered by popular web sites.
2) a potential for shit disturbers. Everyone is a big tough man from a thousand miles away (Slashdot is an almost-too-perfect example of this). I have a hunch that things are very different when one knows that everyone on board is in the same general area.
I ran a BBS too, and I've yet to find a web site that offers any of the same intimacy that those old war-horses did, in addition to the things I mentioned above.
-
Inventor of the term 'pardon my French'.
Ham Radio enthusiasts have been enjoying wireless "BBS's" for a while now in the form of packet radio. Packet radio is essentially a DTMF modem that hooks up to your ham radio, allowing you to transmit data packets usually around 9600 bps, sometimes 19200. Due to the limited range of wireless transmission, these packet radio BBS's are for the geographically local. They have message boards, BBS email, etc etc just like the old days of the internet. Some even have internet gateways so you can send real e-mail etc. Its really cool technology, but whats applicable is the ideas behind it. See if you can find out what kind of BBS options packet radio enthusiasts have, and what kind of local-oriented things they can do with their network.
Maybe someone already suggested this (I didn't take the time to read all the posts, but why don't you just create a website that caters to your area's needs and then advertise it around your neighborhood -- flyers, word of mouth, etc
I remember how terrifying downloading and uploading to particular BBS sites in my local areas use to be. Some BBS operators had such strict policies to maximize their only 1 line and to keep noobs and lamers away that if you kept being disconnected during a file transfer they'd blacklist you! This was extremely threatening as every BBS site pretty much shared the same community, thus the same blacklist.
My family could not for the life of them understand my reactions if one of them came home and picked up the phone without getting clearance from me - the hermit upstairs:P
Some aim to please, I aim to tease.
Can you setup the concept, use a bootable CD distro (Knoppix?), and then layer on a Mesh network (see Google) so that you can have a larger community?
Agile Artisans
www is hugee, you don't have to restrict to a single area,
I think you might have missed the point of the article. He specifically wants geographical isolation. All this "freeom" the internet has given us has taken away something else. You just don't have the sense of community on the internet. You can't decide "Hey, this weekend let's meet at pub XYZ" and actually interact with these people as humans have evolved to do.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I think the biggest problem will not only be interest, but understanding. You're average user will be confused as to why this "network" doesn't have internet access. You have to remember that back in the BBS days, it was generally restricted to those who were not only in the know how, but could set it up (much easier to get internet access and surf the web). At any rate, good luck.
You sure ain't looked lately. Besides, every transceiver is it's own node in a way, and the range is awesome, and you are in no way dependent on any other hops for a lot of useages. Think about it.
fanbois all giddy over their 3 km "wireless connection", let alone their leet 3 ENTIRE city blocks connection. Hey, looka me, I can wirelessly connect with someone who's sitting over at the next table! ooh, wow, now I got another starbucker ACROSS THE STREET!
tee hee hee, same guys who bolt huge wings on their 1.3 liters.....
Hi, I used to participate in dialup BBS's back on my C=64 years ago. I really loved them (their design, colorful menus, file transfer sections, message boards, online games (god I miss Empire), voting booths, etc), however evolution took place -- the Internet was born. BBS's had their limits (most were run off of single phone lines), so one user at a time could dial up.
;)
... it's yet another extension of the Internet and right now wireless is hot topic and cheap to build.
..... ;) anybody remember "The Draw" ?
BBS's were a means of communication back in the day when there was nothing else. It gave people a way to express their interests with other people who maybe had the same interest (see Internet). Some of the bigger BBS's used to even be networked so they could share message boards (i.e., WWIV, and others) or have multiple phone lines and modems (anything with more than 1 line was considered a BIG board). BBS's kept evolving and the few things that the BBS's provided (mentioned them above), thats basically the basis of the Internet. File sections that you'd download files from, webpages have that. Message boards that you can post and other users would reply (i.e., Slashdot!), online games, chat rooms, etc.
BBS's had their downfalls. Most people I knew enjoyed setting up the BBS but we were kids at the time and couldn't afford the phone line lol, but we kept plugging away designing board after board, just to do it. Also, if we want to point the finger at who killed BBS's, lets start thinking about the people that wrote the BBS software, then they stopped doing that when the Internet came out. They knew when it was time to quit also.
I'll admit I really do miss BBS's, but not because of the content of what they had, but because of "local" feeling you had when using them. You could post messages about something going on in a city you lived in, and other people would completely know what you were talking about because they just as local. I don't think BBS's died, they just evolved into something we know as the Internet. The Internet is everything the BEST BBS strived to be, without that local feeling.
If I had one wish, I would have hoped that at the end of the BBS evolution, that people would have been smart enough to realize that once the Internet hit with full force, we'd all lose contact with each other and that there should have been a common method for users of BBS's to smoothly migrate to the public Internet without losing contact with each other. God knows how many times my Internet email address or IM name has changed since BBS days, and over time you lose contact with people that matter. BBS's were all about contact, expression, and personal enjoyment. Since we had was ASCII and ANSI, and small computers with minimal amounts of memory, slow CPU's (C=64 = 1MHz) we made use with what we had. God I sound old.
I remember boards that I used to dial up, that had maybe 500 users, and I felt as if I knew about maybe 50-100 of them just by reading message posts, etc. Now there we have this huge BBS that we call the Interent, and I have no idea of how to find these people. It would have been nice to keep the contacts that I had on BBS's, but combine that effort to create something using the Internet so that people still have that "local" feeling that BBS's gave you.
Maybe someone should have developed a webpage that's focus is to allow users to submit names of BBS's, country it was from, state, area code, etc, so you can add your handle/name to it, and then list out your CURRENT Internet contact info. I'd love to have my old contacts back. Things were rockin' back then
I think a local wireless thing is a good idea but it's not a replacement for BBS's
I also really miss the animated menus
-Rainman1976
er, it's been a long day at work and am just catching up on my reading. and i'm a little tired so maybe i'm ot here. at the risk of sounding like making money is an ok thing, why not create a bunch of local "radio" staions in every town. instead of delivering the internet via yer spanking new airport express, why not sell local adverts? provide the hosting for the each local wifi connection centrally (hosted on the internet, turn key), and use the same scheme as any of the subscription services use to encourage those who discover their networks from hotelrooms or parks or driving thru to deliver the adverts. make it turn key for the local entrep. anyone remember a classifieds scheme in the usa called penny something, where every locality had a franchise selling lines to local business vendors and garage sellers? maybe it still exists. maybe they should do this scheme. buy an airexpress and if you are delivering in the deadzone you have a captive audience. and wifi channel surfers will find you as signals wobble, simply discovering your beautiful signal. and everyone in the know can chec you out on the internet befire hitting town, or "see" your localxxx-r-us.com while passing thru, maybe finding a cheap hotel or a cheap... ok, i'm tired, maybe this is a dumb idea or maybe i just don't frequent the right neighbourhoods with my laptop.
You can say that about any web site. This site has the advantage that he's hosting it himself and can put hundreds of gigabytes worth of content up. With all that space, he can make his site very interesting without having to pay an arm and a leg to a hosting provider. I think that's what he means by BBS community spirit, doing it yourself and having lots of interesting stuff.
I imagine that the only reason he's blocking "internet" access trough his wireless is to avoid angering his ISP. It will be impossible, and foolish, for him to keep his content from pointing to the outside world. Most of the people who connect to his network are going to also have internet access and have it while they are browsing his pages.
It will also be difficult to keep his content off the internet itself. Someone who's not worried about angering their ISP and our hero could forward ports and serve the whole thing up to the internet at large while making it look like all the traffic was going to a local wireless connection. Anyone know a way to tell the difference?
I'd set up a single machine ad hock and give it a static IP. He could also set up a WAP and have this machine hooked into an ethernet port on the back and that would be easier. I'd run Debian because that's what I know. He could set up http, anonymous ftp and shell accounts. He'd have to advertise it on the web or with a handbill. Colliding with other WAPs might get messy.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Uh, no, the BBS is far from dead. Just do some searching and you'll find that many of those old dial-up systems have been revived as telnetable bulletin boards.
And, there are plenty of TCP/IP based telnet BBS software products out there. Try Synchronet, or even EleBBS as a start.
One user posted these questions:
.mil. Not sure about global redirects, though -- can a DNS server just map all addresses to my one IP?
1) who is paying for equiptment?
Me, but not really. I have an old wireless router, and an old first generation PowerMac off ebay awhile ago ($20 list.) Everything else, right now, is free; I am a mac user, so I'm using MacPerl and MacHTTP. The biggest problem is security: no https for older Macs available any more. So I might have to switch to linux unless someone wants to contact me about a copy of Quid Pro Quo Secure.
I am not averse to dropping, say, $300 on a nice router. But is it really necessary? I don't see much of a problem with having, e.g., a 25 user limit. I mean, how many modems did the old BBSs have, anyway?
2) where is the equiptment going to be located?
My living room, within 100 feet of perhaps 200 people, perhaps 100 of whom have WiFi cards. I am on the edge of a college campus, too, so there is plenty of space to lounge around.
3) how many people are acutally interested (is it going to be a wasted effort)?
Well, that's the question! I've put in a few hours of work last weekend and am close to finishing up coding the perl. I imagine the total testbed setup won't stretch longer than ten hours tops if I stick with the classic Mac -- I can put it online and see what kind of response there is.
4) servers to host content
Just the hard drive.
5) Mesures to prevent people from causing problems (dhcp servers, hackers, viri and such)
No uploads. Why would I want to? The internet serves all the warez one needs. Instead, this is pretty much a message board and text-only server.
6) will DNS be used?
Uh... I guess so? I have yet to figure out how to configure the DNS. I can run a DNS server on the mac, and I am quite excited to assign myself a
7) Scale of network vs ammount of information being communicated
? Not sure what this means. I don't anticipate opening anything other than port 80 (and, please, 443 for https -- need leads on doing this on an old Mac!) I actually have very little understanding about running a network "in the wild," so please alert me to potential problems I might face.
And, of course, everyone already has wireless internet, so I don't anticipate people trying to skim off mine. If I move back to the city, I anticipate a similar situation -- a WiFi network somewhere nearby that is connected to the internet.
Questions I haven't had addressed that I would really like:
1. Tutorials on getting this up and running.
2. Recommended systems! (Is a Mac unworkable because of lack of https? Do I have to get... a linux box... learn linux?)
3. Anyone out there done this recently?
Thanks to all who have and will post. I will submit a story when I get it up and running.
Finally, I would like to deliver a serious OLD SCHOOL SHOUTOUT to those who grok the goodness of this plan. Thank you. Please autograph my copy of the Hacker Dictionary.
BBSes were so bloody interesting because there weren't many ways for the 12-17 year old nerds in their folk's basements to interact electronically. These types of peeps today are spread far and wide across the universe of blinky flashy shiny online games and endless niche 'boards and irc channels. They aren't coming back to local offline (WOT??? LAAAAAME) BBSes.
Super uber kewl stuff happened when you got a necessarily diverse bunch of dudes together on a BBS (I mean, there were only so many per area code), all trying to be the alpha tres leetxor. Seems there's a crazy precise niche for every taste nowadays and a bazillion little silly games that last for a few months and server each one. Everyone's a newb now and firing their rockets or level ninety eight flame swords of bung or questing for things they don't understand and no one even knows why. When it's not fun anymore you go to frys and spend another fifty bucks to get bawted in a new, clever way. Then you play some halo and curse the lack of a mouse before crying yourself to sleep.
I don't know what the answer is but sometimes I think maybe theres a big blue ball flying through space and we're all just along for the ride.
Oh, and if you want any of that old BBS software, it's still out there! A company named Metropolis now (unfortunately) owns the licenses for the classic game "Legend of the Red Dragon", so you'll have to buy it from them and not Seth Able. Most of the other ones have gone the way of abandonware... I tried to contact the authors of Usurper, Exitilus and so on... and none of them seem to have internet presence anymore. And if you were a Tradewars fan, it not only still exists but at one point they were going to make a new age MMORPG out of it!
-Vendal Thornheart
This is a freeware program, and one of the most robust BBS systems ever... particularily since it's one of the only ones still being developed. The guy who makes it is a really nice fellow too... I'd check it out. It supports making Telnet BBSs with up to (I believe) 255 virtual nodes, and it works perfectly with LORD, Usurper, etc... In fact, not too long ago I ran a BBS at my college. Those were good times... memories... =)
-Vendal Thornheart
I was thinking the same thing! SynchroNET rocks, and I'm glad there's still someone alive other than me that appreciated LORD. =) man, that was one hell of a game.
-Vendal Thornheart
There is a loose hirearchy going from continent-wide/state/local often with their own websites. IP assignment is decentralised too:
Australia
Brismesh (state)
Local
A digital terrain model is used to see what nodes are within line of sight in the Node Database
We're experimenting with intercity connects as well, ofther with the helpl of RF/amaterur radio experts.
If this is not the second post (Score:-1, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on 10:51 AM July 15th, 2003 (#6439286)
I will run into the GNAA office wearing a white robe and hood with my erect penis hanging out.
[ Reply to This ]
Re:If this is not the second post (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on 10:52 AM July 15th, 2003 (#6439294)
Sweet, we'll be expecting you soon
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:If this is not the second post (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on 10:52 AM July 15th, 2003 (#6439295)
dear sir, please visit #GNAA on efnet immediately.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
First, BBS software is dead.. don't even think about attempting a telnet based sychronet, wwiv, or whatever other old bbs software you can find. I use to run a BBS, was very active 1990-1994ish in the BBS "scene" and I wouldn't even bother getting into something like this -- much less someone who never used a BBS before.
.. right?) --->
.. this says lots of high-bandwidth content.. Great way to get people interested? perhaps video personals.. I think for many, it would spark some interest in atleast checking out the system.
.. perhaps get some of the local radio stations involved (streaming their content over the network? perhaps some free publicity as well), web cams galore (its fun), discussion forums, etc..
Second, use Internet technologies -- DHCP, DNS, HTTP, etc.. its around, its free, its mature and generally speaking, pretty easy to setup in an intranet setup.
Third, focus on your advantages: #1 known demographic (same region) and #2 highspeed access (802.11B and higher
So you get lots of people together that have high speed versus broadband/dialup to the larger internet
Other content would be the local scene news -- where bands are playing, upcoming events, yada yada
Ultimately there *NEEDS* to be enough huge-bandwidth offerings to make people want to use the system.. too much of this same content is already available in the much more easily accessible Internet..
In the Netherlands several of these projects have taken off. the most wellknown is wireless Leiden. It is IP based, but it is not connected to the Internet. Users use to watch videos and and highstream stuff and some local school use is as a LAN.
cheers,
Aad
maybe the American lunar expedition did not leave Hollywood at all.
As a matter of fact, on the RvB Forums, we decided quite some time ago to meet at a local bar, and we've done it weekly ever since.
----geppy -
Oh no, wait! Sorry, my mistake...
Setting up open wireless networks that don't connect to the Internet is somewhat anti-social: people may get confused about their network settings or their laptops may connect to the first available network (yours) and then not be able to get out.
If you want a geographic community, why not just give out access cards with a password in person at your place? That way, your population will be local, but you can use a more standard setup. And when your local friend travel, they can still check in over the Internet.
Unless you plan on facilitation of illegal filesharing it's really not going anywhere quickly, that's just my take.
http://www.fsckin.com/
If you wanted a buncha nerds using your network.
But TW has a relatively high barrier to entry, and requires daily interaction. Might be a nice side-show for a few people on the network, but certainly shouldn't be the main "bait" - nor should a MUD.
KISS - bulliten board, chat area. That's going to be the core of anything community (of the geographic sort) based.
paintball
The best of the original BBS software lives on in the internet age!
Seems like it would suit your needs and more, plus it's multiplatform (Linux, Macintosh, PDA, Windows)
http://www.softarc.com/
hahah, this reminded me of when I used to bother people by paging them with the control codes for a zmodem receive and those clients with auto receive would pop up a receive window. lol
ok, ok, it wasn't that funny
you're talking about a LAN, FFS.
So you want to isolate your self from the www, but you want contributions from the community on how to make it interesting ??? This event qualifies as an oxymoron.
forgivness is easier to get than permission
Someone set up something similar in South Station in Boston. It's described as a WiFi Bubble, and supplies information about South Station, vendors in the station, and gives you the opportunity to win a magic fortune fish!
Any requests to web pages outside the bubble only result in being served the bubble index page. It's a nice demonstration of what you can do with an old iMac and an Airport. The administrator gives some information on how it was set up, but the page is only available inside the bubble.
Nonetheless, it can be done! And if you're lucky, maybe you'll get a magic fortune fish! (Ooo! Curls up on both ends- I'm passionate! Woo! Hoo!)
Whew! This water sure is cold!
You can't decide "Hey, this weekend let's meet at pub XYZ"
Oh, how wrong you are. There's thousands of little regional BBS type sites out on the internet. They largely spread by word of mouth. They stay regional by virtue of the fact that the core users all get together regularly at pub XYZ. There's no shortage of software for running these sorts of things either. Putting it on the internet just increases availability. I can go and chat with my friends while I'm at work. Likewise if I live a little outside of the wireless range for the network, it's not an issue either.
bance.net
I think the original poster is on to something, but it isn't the geographical access. Text based BBSes have a certain quality to it that can't be replaced by the now very graphical www. It's like the difference between reading a book and reading a magazine.
:. Ultimate Control Dedicated/VM Servers
Couldn't figure out how to build it in such a way that the networks could connect to one another and exchange information but keep it from being connected to the outside.
Interesting idea, though. And I think in the right places they could be very effective. College campus comes to mind. A neighborhood net around the college, or the entertainment district in a downtown area.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
will be your success or demise.
May I suggest:
Offering free hosting for local artists. Kind of a community portfolio. Even better if you find someone with edgy or risque work.
Offering free hosting for local underground musicians. Include an "internet" radio station that broadcasts their content. Hell, even hook it up to the internet if you want. Most internet radio stations will let you setup playlists, so it doesn't have to be manned 24/7. I would even suggest putting the DJ "booth" live in one of the cafes for use by anyone walking by. Dyne:Bolic (www.dyne.org), a Mini ITX motherboard and case (mini-itx.org), and a CD drive is all you need...
Definitely get community games in there; they will drive your early adopters, who will in turn drive your widespread adoption.
Get a community sponsor to offer some monthly "door prizes"... a free coffee at the local coffee shop, family bowling, 50% off one title at the game store... for that matter, a local LAN gaming facility might be interested in co-sponsoring the whole thing in exchange for high visibility advertising in their target community...
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
Plenty of telnet BBS's Still exist. It may be better to join the community rather than open another empty bbs. www.synchro.net makes BBS Software. It's a community project. Lots of SysOps very few users these days.
A few people have pointed to telnet BBSes, but are there any that support SSH? I encrypt my e-mail and (some) web surfing - why wouldn't I want to encrypt my BBS session?
in fact, it was limited to two registered copies per area code to maintain exclusivity. It had an interesting feature whereby if you used a crack on the software, it would would at some point in the future format your hard disk.
It also had a back door where the authors could log in with sysop access and fuck with your configuration.
The V-X authors were evil.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
your idea might be usefull for a few people, but it will be a novelty for most. once they see what you have to offer, they'll just gripe about not being able to get to slashdot.org
Hey - molecular biology geek not computer geek but - do you need a server? I have been wondering about self-assembly & P2P WiFi networks just as a neat concept, but this sounds like the ideal application. Is it possible to write software such that each WiFi enabled node will automatically add itself to the existing network, relay packets, etc etc etc? Then you wouldn't even be limited by the range of the central server (or your budget for it) as active nodes could relay data to one another.
I'm thinking kind of a self-assembling on-demand arbitrarily-scalable internet. The routing would be a bit tricky but you should be able to allow for nodes moving around. Then you'd have a real smart mob. Hard to censor too I would imagine(unless you just jam the whole thing).
Does standard hardware support this?
Think router. You are basically going to setup a Wireless Access Point bridged and open and with a linux box handling all the low level routing.
I actually spec'd some of this for a new ISP startup. While I grant I never set it up (they were having money woes and other issues) I've worked for 3 ISPs so I think this is good advice, but like all advice... well.. it's freely given so here we go with no guarantees.
When these WiFi computers hook in they are going to look for a DHCP address. So you'll need a DHCP server. That DHCP server *SHOULD* give them DNS information. So you'll need a DNS server. That DHCP Server will also give them a gateway which will be your linux box.
I'd recommend giving them IP address with 255.255.255.255 as the subnet (I believe this is possible) and in that way all traffic will route through the Linux Box. (You could also tighten this down even more by just installing a WiFi card in the Linux box and have *IT* be the WiFi Router). What you are after is that they can't/won't route to each other, but only to your Linux box.
Once you have that in place you start work work on the routing table. This is where I'll wax vague. Linux has the ability to handle Layer 4 router. You can route every request for port 80 traffic to a specific IP address. Anywhere they go they will get your BBS Webserver, whatever that happens to be.
Cable ISPs use the same thing. When you turn a box up on their network with a new MAC every attempt to port 80 gets routed to a web server you have to register with and then when you enter a valid username/password through their web page then it gets added into a routing table that lets you pass.
I don't mean to make it sound easy, you are going to have some testing to do but that's most of it. The devils in the details. But I'd recommend doing most of your work in the routing table of Linux system. You don't want those WiFi users talking to each other at the IP level (or lower for those OSI model folks at there). They should only being able to talk to your Linux Router and that's it!
Once your linux box has all the traffic you can route anything anywhere. Could even get fancy. Any attempt route a particular protocol gets fed back into your BBS. They want a MP3 over port 80? Feed them a soundbite. They want a WMA file over port 80? Feed them your own doctored version. (Though that would probably done with the help of a specially written web server. Perhaps perl or Regex to match http requests and file names to a list of substitutes... ;-)
Sounds fun!!!
Best wishes from an old BBS'er....
"Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me
What you're wanting to do sounds some what like the WiFi.Bedouin project.
we could very well be witnessing the begining of a new wifi based internet. This guy starts his own little subnet.... then some other guy starts one... pretty soon they're everywhere, and then people start setting up unidirectional antennas to link them all together... boom... InternetIII
It's enough to make me want to cry..
o)
What is a sig, how do you define a sig.
ssh -t bbs@server1 telnet localhost 12345
This will ensure that the telnet session realizes that it is attached to a terminal. Without the -t, everything you type will be double-echoed, including the password for the BBS login. Obviously, you don't want that.
on the tech side, how is this different than setting up a corperate or school W/LAN minus the internet gateway? you have your own DNS, DHCP, WWW, BBS, FTP, IRC servers and donn't bother with a default gateway.
like asking "how do I make a cake, but without icing?", aren't there already enough docs on how to make a network?
next!
- Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
Hey dont connect ur Wireless Router to the Internet! Most routers do DHCP, so anyone plugging in will automatically get a IP.
You want a good modern BBS, this looks like it could be a good tool for the task:
TikiWiki
I did something like this for a while.. nobody used it. I might try again when I can afford a more powerful antenea. Wasn't to hard to set up though. Apache, PHP, Bind, and DHCP. Just like setting up a decent home lan really. I was also thinking of adding a dial-in line though.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
> > that still doesn't make it a kid-safe zone
> maybe, maybe not
Er, no... Definitely. It means that anyone trying to prey on kids must be in that area, which means they have quicker access to them. They have to be in a geographically-small area to connect at all & know exactly where to look.
The only way to be relatively sure of your customer base is to know them all personally. If you are trying to grow as a public network, that is simply impossible.
The localization is something people would like. I guess the way I'd do it would be to hook up a wireless router to a single machine, and configure the gateway such that all traffic were directed to it. At that point, whether you use web or telnet is up to you, but I'd consider web as everyone already knows the interface. Are you going to tell us which is the lucky community which will receive this gift?
Finest word processor ever.
You seem to be mistaken about the BBS scene. People were only "drawn from a single geographic location" because it was all there was. At the time, going on a BBS was much better than connecting to one friend's computer.
Then the Internet and ISPs came along and one's audience increased way over the BBS. The BBS is now history.
Of course it's just a LAN. But the first thing people do with LAN's is to connect them to the internet or larger networks. Almost never are LAN's created with the point of forming an isolated community.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why does it have to be wireless?
I'm thinking wireless as it would be totally built and maintained by the students themselves - first of all, the univeristy would see no point in a second isolated network and would just connect it to the internet at large anyway. Secondly, anything the university helps builds they are also responsible for content upon. An ad-hoc network created by students with wireless repeaters can do anything the students want with no oversight. It's what college radio should evolve into.
I was also on the tail end of the BBS culture. As you note there could be fun discussions and the like, and a truly local community could be fun for people to use. It would need a few people keeping it interesting to stay in use though or it would just languish.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Won't that be your users' first question once they hit your intranet?
... they'll say.
"How come I can't reach da inner net?"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
For outside connectivity I think I mentioned I would allow for outgoing/incoming mail somehow, just forward port 25 requests (perhaps disallow outbound so as not to attract spammers, but they'd have to be on campus which seems unlikely).
Besides a smaller community another advantage you get is a smaller scope of network - less searching to find something interesting. As another post mentioned you just have every DNS request for outside web stuff come up with a greeting explaining that it's a closed net for such and such a community, with direct links to forums and webcams or what have you. That's why I say its almost like the evolution of the college radios station as you could have a web "DJ' changing this default welcome screen all the time to have something they found cool, but always with links to constant features like local forums and such.
I still think the purposeful separation from the larger network is a cool feature and not to be dismissed, as I think it helps build the feeling of closeness and community you'd want. Alums would visit the campus more often just to hook in to see what was going on in the local net. At least that's part of the dream.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Wonderful, wonderful hoax. Mod +1, Funny. But don't mod insightful.
How could 10.x.x.x addresses cost more given they are private and therefore unnasigned?
LOL!
--- My dad's political betting
Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!
The Iraqi intifada will kill them all!
Long live the Iraqi resistance!!